Chapter V: Excerpt From Report of Mr. Peterkin, General Inspector of Board (23)

5884. Is that not a fixed standard? Is there a fresh calculation made every year as to the quantity of dried fish produced out of so much green?-There can be if it is wished.

5885. Do you not always go upon the footing that 21/4 cwt. of green fish make 1 cwt. of dry?-No; we can make a calculation in order to get at the quantity of green fish which it takes to make 1 cwt. of dry.

5886. On what principle do you act in settling with the fishermen?-In settling with them we pay them the current price paid in the country.

5887. But you calculate that current price on a certain principle with regard to the quantity of dry fish produced out of green?- Yes.

5888. In settling with them, do you always go upon the footing that 21/4 cwt. of green make 1 cwt. of dry, or does that enter into the settlement with the fishermen at all?-Of course that enters into the calculation; but then we can know exactly what quantity of green fish it takes to make 1 cwt. of dry. It is generally about 21/4 cwt. It may be a few pounds less some years, but it is very seldom more than 21/4 cwt. We always reckon upon it taking 21/4 cwt. green of ling to make 1 cwt. of dry; but then the price which we pay to the fishermen depends altogether upon the price which we get from the fish dry, and we pay them the current price paid in the country.

5889. How is that current price ascertained? Is it by the sales of each fish-curer, or by the sales of all the firms in Shetland?- Fish-curers have generally to pay the same price, whether they get the same price or not; but there is not often any great difference between the price got by one curer and that got by another. For instance, we reckon, one 21/4 cwt. green fish to 1 cwt. dry: that, at 8s. a cwt., comes to 18s., and we pay the fishermen for the cwt. of dry fish. Then the actual cost of curing is reckoned at about 2s. 6d. per cwt. dry. That does not include waste of curing utensils and management; so that the actual cost of curing the fish would be nearly £3 a ton, or 3s. a cwt.

5890. You may sell these fish for about 23s.?-Yes; but there is more to be taken into the calculation than that. We get £6 from each boat for the hire of the boat and the lines; but that sum cannot cover the cost to us, and therefore we have a loss upon the boat and lines, which has to come off the fish also.

5891. Is that loss universal?-I think it is, because there is no more paid for the boats now than was paid twenty years ago, when a boat wore half as long again [Page 146] as it does now, and when lines that run for two or three seasons would run for five or six seasons.

5892. Is that difference caused by deterioration in the quality of the articles?-No; it is caused by the boats going further out to the fishing. They require larger boats and larger sails, and then the lines are getting more used and more worn.

5893. I was asking you how the current price is ascertained at the end of the year?-It is just ascertained in the same way as the current price of any other commodity in any other place would be ascertained.

5894. Do you correspond with other fish-curers in order to find out the price?-Yes.

5895. Is there any meeting of fish-curers held at Lerwick or elsewhere for the purpose of fixing the price?-Not that I am aware of; not in the case of the haaf fishing.

5896. Is there any in the case of the Faroe fishing?-I am not sure about that; but I never attended one.

5897. Have you been asked to attend one?-No.

5898. Is there any rule with regard to the fixing of price current in the Faroe fishing? Do not the fishermen there get one-half the proceeds of the fishing, whatever the price may be, without reference to a price current?-It is always expected that the crew of one vessel will get the same as the crew of another.

5899. Do you mean the same as the crew of another employed by the same merchant?-No; by different merchants. That is always expected, and there is seldom any difference, although it does happen occasionally.

5900. Therefore you have heard of a meeting for the purpose of fixing a price current for the Faroe fishing?-I heard of such a thing taking place once, but not oftener; and I think it was only attended by three or four individuals. I think that was a year or two ago, but I am not certain about the time. Indeed, I am not certain about the thing; it only occurs to me that I heard about it.

5901. But the current price for the ordinary ling fishing can be easily enough ascertained, because you meet one another, and in your correspondence you may mention it incidentally?-Yes.

5902. Does it sometimes happen that the fishermen to one firm complain that they have not got so large price as their neighbours?-That has happened in my experience once or twice.

5903. Does that account in any degree for the desire which some fishermen seem to have for a price to be fixed before the season begins?-I don't think so.

5904. Do you think fishermen would be better off if a price were so fixed?-I do not.

5905. Why?-Because I think, under the present system, they are getting the very utmost the fish are worth to any merchant.

5906. But would it not be better for the fishermen? Would they not work as well, or better, if they knew the price they were to get?-I am not very sure about that; I cannot see in what respect they could possibly be better than they are.

5907. In your curing establishment do you employ beach boys at a fixed rate per annum?-Yes.

5908. Do they open an account in your shop-books in the same way as a fisherman who is engaged to fish to you for the season?- Yes, in much the same way. We engage them about this time of the year, and they require a few trifles about this time. Then, before they commence work on the beach, they require some clothing-perhaps some oilskins and boots or shoes. Then they require meal to keep them going through the season, and they are settled with at the end.

5909. What is the amount of the balance generally paid to a beach boy at settlement time in cash?-From 10s. to 30s.

5910. Out of wages amounting to from £2 to £3, 10s.?-Yes; we very seldom pay a boy more than £3.

5911. Have you any difficulty in getting beach boys?-We do find a considerable difficulty sometimes.

5912. Is the supply not equal to the demand?-Not in our case. For the past year for instance, it has not.

5913. How does that happen? Are their wages too low, or have they any other employment nowadays?-Nowadays the boys are being employed at the fishing sooner than they used to be.

5914. Are there many people employed in your curing establishment as day workers?-Yes; they are chiefly women, but there are a few boys and a few old people.

5915. How are they paid?-By the day.

5916. When are they paid?-Whenever they wish

5917. Is there a weekly pay-day with them?-There may be, if they wish; but sometimes, for their convenience, we do not settle weekly. The settlement may run for three, four, five, or six weeks, or perhaps whole season.

5918. How many days will these women be employed in the course of the season? Is it anything like constant employment?- Yes; at least during the summer. From the end of May till the end of September we will employ on an average about twenty women daily at Mossbank, and about ten at Greenbank.

5919. Do these women run an account at your shop for goods?- Yes.

5920. Is a considerable amount of their wages paid to them in goods?-Yes, a considerable part.

5921. Is there any understanding or rule that they shall take part of their wages in goods?-There is no such understanding.

5922. They are quite at liberty with regard to that-Yes.

5923. Will they get cash if they ask for it?-Yes, if they have it to get; but it is a convenience for them to get their goods from our shop. It saves them the trouble of going a greater distance for them.

5924. Is there no other shop there?-Not close by. The nearest shop is about a mile off, I think.

5925. Is there any expectation or understanding, when these women are engaged, that they shall open an account and take their wages, or the greater part of them, in goods at your shop?-No, there is no understanding; but we have every reason to believe that they will come to us, because they cannot manage otherwise.

5926. Are the goods which they take generally provisions or soft goods?-Chiefly provisions, but some soft goods too.

5927. In engaging these women, do you give any preference to those who deal at your shop?-No; but they mostly all deal there.

5928. Has each of them a ledger account in her own name with you?-Yes.

5929. Have they generally pass-books, or do they prefer to do without them?-They can get a passbook if they like, but they seldom do it.

5930. Are you a landed proprietor?-I am to small extent.

5931. Are any members of your firm owners of land?-No; not owners.

5932. Or tacksmen?-I am a tacksman of some; and we, as a firm, are factors for one or two small properties.

5933. Are any other members of the firm tacksmen or proprietors of land?-Not tacksmen.

5934. Or proprietors?-No. Mr. Hoseason, I think, is proprietor of one-fifth part of a rental of £3.

5935. On the land which you hold as owner or tacksman, are there many of the tenants who are fishermen and are employed by your firm?-Yes, there are a great many fishermen.

5936. Are they under any obligation to fish for you, and not for another?-Yes; we expect them fish for us in preference.

5937. That is part of the contract which they enter into for their ground?-Yes; but it is also understood that we are to give them the current price of the country.

5938. What are the properties of which you are tacksman?- Aywick, in East Yell.

5939. What is the number of fishermen on that property?-There are only four or five of them who fish to us. There are a good many others, but they do not [Page 147] fish to us. Some of these men go to the whale fishing, and we are not interested in it.

5940. They are not bound to fish for you if they go to the whale fishing or to the Faroe fishing?-No; not unless we require them. If we require them, they will give us the preference willingly.

5941. Is it part of the arrangement or understanding, that you are entitled to prevent them from going to the whale fishing or to the Faroe fishing if you please?-No; they are at perfect liberty to go to the whale fishing if they prefer it.

5942. But if they engage in the home fishing they are bound to fish to you?-Yes, if we wish it.

5943. What other properties are held in tack by you?-Sandwick, in North Yell.

5944. How many men are upon it?-There are seven or eight families, the heads of which are all fishermen, and they fish to us. There is another small property called Sellafirth, in North Yell, on which I think there are four or five men. We are also factors for George Hoseason of Basta, in North Yell.

5945. Are the men there bound to fish to you?-They all fish to us. They are not bound to do so; only, it is understood that they are to fish to us.

5946. How many of them may there be?-I think six or seven. These are all the properties of which we are tacksmen.

5947. Of what properties are you proprietor?-I am proprietor of small place in Delting, at Mossbank.

5948. Are there many fishermen on it?-No; only three or four.

5949. Are they also expected to fish for you?-No; there is only one of them, I think, who fishes for us.

5950. Are those fishermen in North Yell who fish for you, and who live on the land you have mentioned, in the habit of dealing at your shop at Gloup?-Yes; to a small extent.

5951. Are your books kept there?-No; Greenbank is the principal place where they are kept. Gloup is fishing station in connection with Greenbank.

5952. The shop accounts at Greenbank are balanced in the same way against the price of the fish?-Yes.

5953. Perhaps you will make up a similar statement to that which Mr. Adie has promised with regard to the amount of the shop accounts and the indebtedness of the men?-Yes. The systems pursued at Mossbank and Greenbank are a little different. At Greenbank we hire both boat and lines to the men; while at Mossbank the men almost all buy their lines, and hire the boat only.

5954. How many accounts do you keep at both places?-I think about 120 or 130 altogether, for the ling fishing.

5955. Are you engaged in the Faroe fishing?-Yes, to a small extent.

5956. Your dealing with regard to it is similar to what Mr. Adie has described?-Yes, quite the same.

5957. The men who go to that fishing deal at your shop in the same way as those who go to the home fishing?-Yes.

5958. Do they generally incur as large a shop account as the men who engage in the home fishing?-Not generally.

5959. Is that because they are young men?-Yes.

5960. But those who have families are in pretty much the same condition as the home fishers?-Yes; there is not any material difference as to the amount of their shop accounts.

5961. Is there anything you would like to add to what Mr. Adie has said?-No; I think everything I have to say has been stated already.

5962. You are not engaged in the hosiery business?-Only to a very small extent; we do not turn over £100 of hosiery in a year. There is one thing I should like to say about the difference in the price of our meal and the price of meal at Lerwick. I have heard it said that we average 8s. or 10s. higher than the price there. I may explain, in the first place, that there was a mistake with regard to the actual amount of difference; but at that very time the witness spoke of there was a considerable difference caused by a sudden rise in the price of meal in the market. At that time the meal rose several shillings on the sack. Parties who had their meal in before the rise could sell it without any increase of the price, if they thought fit; but we happened to bring in meal the very week the rise came on, so that we had to sell it at an advanced price.

5963. What was it?-I don't recollect exactly, but recollect that it was pretty considerable. The usual difference between the price of our meal and the price of meal in Lerwick is from 1s. 6d. to 2s. per boll

5964. Was the difference as much as 5s.?-No, it was not so much as that; but, from the cause I have mentioned, it may have been considerable. I made an arrangement with a party in Lerwick this year to send us weekly a price current of the meal in Lerwick, because sometimes our people do complain that they are charged more than they could get it for at Lerwick, and I wish to know how we really act in that way. I should be glad to send that price current for your inspection.

5965. Do you wish the prices in it to be compared with the prices at your own shop?-Yes.

5966. How are the prices at your shop to be ascertained?-Our books can show them.

5967. Are all the sales of meal entered in your books at the time they take place?-Not all; but when meal is given on credit, the price is entered in the ledger account opposite the name of the party.

5968. You have not got your books here?-No. I was not cited to attend to-day; but I wished to be examined, and I came forward.

5969. In what way do you arrange your ledger? Have you an account in it for each boat's crew?-Yes.

5970. Is there also a ledger account for each individual?-Yes.

5971. In that ledger account do you enter on the one side all his outfit and all the goods supplied to his family or to himself out of your shop, while on the other side are entered the proceeds of his fishing, and everything else that may be due to him?-Yes.

5972. In the case of the properties of which you are tacksman or proprietor, the rent, I presume, goes into the debit side of the man's account?-Yes.

5973. Is there anything else you wish to say?-No.

Brae, January 10, 1872, Rev. DUNCAN MILLER, examined.

5974. You are a clergyman of the United Presbyterian Church at Mossbank?-I am.

5975. You have been there for a number of years?-Yes; this is my fourteenth year.

5976. You are well acquainted with many of the fishermen and with their families?-Yes.

5977. You are aware of the system which exists, of the payments for the fishermen's catch being settled at long intervals, and of accounts being run for shop goods with the merchants who buy their fish?-Yes. I think it is necessary to make a distinction with regard to the long accounts, because what I suppose is called the winter fishing is paid for immediately on the fish being landed.

5978. These are the small fish taken in the winter time?-Yes.

5979. But for the summer fishing there are these long settlements I refer to?-Yes.

5980. Have you formed any opinion as to the effects of that system upon the habits and character of the people?-I have.

5981. What conclusion have you arrived at on that matter?-I have arrived at the conclusion that these effects are very injurious. I think the men are brought to depend too much upon the shop and too much upon [Page 148] the merchant, and that in consequence they rely too little upon themselves. One result of the system therefore is, that there is a want of prudence amongst the men generally. I think the pass-book system affords a fatal facility for men getting into debt, and that many rush into it in that way who think very little of the debt they incur. Besides, I think the present system fosters, and has a natural tendency to produce a deceitful character in the people. For example, they are bound by their agreement to deliver their fish to the factor of the merchant for whom they fish, and the result is pretty much as has been stated in the examinations to-day, that a good many smuggle away their fish. They think the men who purchase them-I believe they are called yaggers-give them, a higher price, in many cases, than they would get from their employers, and therefore they dispose of fish which really belong to the proprietor of their boats; and all that is done in an underhand way.

5982. Have you any knowledge about these yaggers or factors who come about the country purchasing fish?-I have no knowledge of them except from the fishermen's own statements.

5983. Do you understand them to be strangers travelling about the country?-I understand them to be men-many of them, at least,- who have boats of their own. They have perhaps a single boat upon a station, and that gives them a right to be upon that station; and then they can buy as many fish as they please from the men belonging to other boats and other proprietors.

5984. Are they men who cure for themselves?-Yes; they cure for themselves to a small extent, and increase their means by purchasing from other boats.

5985. Do they occasionally reside in Shetland?-Yes.

5986. Are they fishermen themselves?-Yes; they are what are called small merchants. Possibly they are not able to furnish out a large fleet of boats, but they get one; and that one is little better than an excuse for giving them a right to be there, and to make purchases.

5987. Is the opinion you have arrived at with regard to the habits of improvidence that prevail among the fishermen the result of your own experience of particular cases.?-It is the result of general impressions, from a comparison of a multitude of individual cases that have come under my notice.

5988. Do the fishermen or their families with whom you come into contact, complain or make you aware that they run into debt to the shop to a larger extent than they ought to do?-Yes; many of them do.

5989. Do you find, as a rule, that the ordinary fisherman is in debt to his shop more than he is fairly able to pay at the end of his fishing season?-I think in my own neighbourhood that is probably the case, but of course Mr. Pole is more able to speak to that than I am. I don't know the state of their books, but I have a general impression that that is often the case. I think the majority of the fishermen round Mossbank are deeper in debt than they can hope to pay in one year.

5990. Would your opinion on that point be altered by discovering from the books, or from the fishermen themselves, that a considerable sum was paid to them annually in cash at settlement?-I cannot say for the present how they stand, but I have known when there was hardly a fisherman who was not in debt.

5991. Was that after a bad year?-No; it was for a succession of years. I remember about ten years ago of a very large home fishing in the way of sillock taking, when a couple of men in a boat were realizing upwards of £2 in a night. At that time a great many of them got themselves out of debt who were perhaps about £20, or from £20 to £30, involved, and I presume they have not been so much in debt since. I cannot say exactly how long that was ago but I think it was perhaps eight or ten years.

5992. You spoke of the men being too much dependent upon the fish-curer under the present system: would you explain, in what way that dependence is evidenced?-It is evidenced in a variety of ways. There is one way in which it is pretty evident, viz. that they never think of making any provision for the future. They know when they go to the work, that if their character is such that they can be expected to pay, or if they have property of such an amount as will pay their debt, they can get goods; and it is a kind of maxim, 'Well, there is plenty of pens and ink, and they can mark that down.' I have known that answer returned by men when they were accused of running too far into debt.

5993. Does that indicate a want of self-dependence?-Yes; a want of self-dependence, and too great a dependence upon the shop.

5994. It does not prove that they are under the control of the shopkeeper?-They are under his control.

5995. A man who is deeply in debt to a shopkeeper is of course under the control of his creditor to, certain extent; but in what way does that operate against the fishermen?-I think they become dispirited. They never think of paying their debt, and it paralyzes their energies.

5996. Do you think a fisherman who is in debt in that way is induced to engage for the season with the fish-curer on disadvantageous terms, or that he is induced to continue his dealings at the merchant's shop, when he might do better for himself otherwise?-Yes, I think that when he forms an engagement in that way his energies are paralyzed in prosecuting his calling, and that he will not fish with the same energy as if he were free men. He knows that whatever amount he may earn at the fishing, still his debt will hang about his neck. He will not be able to pay it. But I am not quite sure that I apprehend your question. I am speaking rather of the way in which the fact of a man being in debt paralyzes his energies.

5997. I was rather anxious to see how the fact of him being in debt operated to put him under the control of a fish-merchant so as to induce him to make a worse bargain than he would otherwise do, or to continue dealing at the merchant's shop, and to get his payment in goods, while he might be doing better with ready money?-The way in which I would understand the system operates injuriously in that case is, that if man is in debt to a merchant, the merchant, if he wishes the man to fish, has no more to do than to say to him, 'I will roup you off: you will be without the possibility of holding land, and your cows will be taken. You will get no manure; you cannot cultivate your land profitably without it, and you will just have to begin the world again a new man.' Now a man with a family, and probably a pretty large family, cannot afford to do that.

5998. Is there a feeling among the fishermen that they are in any way under an obligation, either a tacit understanding or an actual obligation-to deal at the fish-curer's shop for their goods?- There is a tacit understanding, at least, that they must do that; but I believe that is induced by the circumstance, that for large portion of the year their money is in the merchants' hands, and that again affords the kind of facility for running into debt which I have spoken of.

5999. Do you think that makes them incur larger debts than they otherwise would do?-I think so.

6000. Can you suggest any remedy for this state of things?-The remedy I would suggest is this: that the payments be as prompt as possible, and that they be cash payments. I am quite ready to state how I think the cash payments would operate. At present the fishermen's money is all in the merchants' hands; but he is requiring goods in the meantime, and he has no money to procure them with, and therefore he goes to the merchant and procures his goods. The merchant is under no constraint,-he can put his own price on the articles which he sells; and of course, where there is a credit system like the present, there are a large number of defaulters. These defaulters do not pay their own debts; but the merchant must live notwithstanding, and therefore the honest men have to pay for the defaulters. The merchant could not carry on his business unless [Page 149] that were done. He must have his losses covered; and system of that sort tells very heavily upon the public, because the merchant must charge a large margin of profit. Now I think the ready-money system would be more favourable for both parties,-because, suppose I were a merchant and dealing in ready money, I might turn over my capital three times a year, and I might have a profit every time, or three several profits; but if my money is lying out in debts, then it is perfectly clear that I must have as large a profit upon one turnover of my capital as under the other system, I would have upon the three, only I might have a little more trouble in turning it over three times instead of once. That is the reason why I think it would be beneficial to the merchant. On the other hand, I think it would be beneficial to the fishermen, because if the merchant turns over his capital three times, and has a profit on each time, then the profit which he could afford to charge would be less, and the men would get their goods cheaper.

6001. Are you in a position to state, as a matter of opinion, from your own experience, that the prices charged at the shops of these merchants are higher than they are at others where that system does not prevail?-I am not personally cognisant of that. I have bought some things at the shops here, and I thought they were charged higher; but I get my goods from Edinburgh-half a year's provisions at a time-so that I cannot testify from personal experience as to the difference in that respect.

6002. Is it not a very common thing in Shetland for families to get their supplies from Edinburgh?-I don't think it is general.

6003. I don't mean the families of fishermen; but is it not a common thing for people of a higher class to get their supplies from the south?-Yes, from Edinburgh or Aberdeen; but in my own case there is reason for sending to Edinburgh, over and above any difference in price. There are many articles I require which are not to be had here, and I have to send south before I can get such articles as are suitable for me.

6004. Have you anything to say with regard to the system pursued in the hosiery business here?-I don't think it is conducted with that amount of discrimination which it ought to be conducted with. In my neighbourhood there is very little done in hosiery; but the hosiery goods are just like a penny piece,-you know what they are; it does not matter whether the article is good or bad,-there is just a fixed price for it. That being the case, people don't put themselves to much trouble in order to procure a good article.

6005. Do you think the women would be better off if they were to get payment for their goods in cash?-I think so. I think it would be beneficial to have transactions in cash in hosiery as well as in everything else.

6006. Do you know any cases of women who have been making hosiery, and who have been in distress for want of money although they were able to get goods for their hosiery?-I know that they prefer money. I cannot say about their having been in distress. Many persons have come to my wife and have brought hosiery goods because they would get money from her for them. They often require money for purposes that goods will not answer, and in such cases they frequently come to Mrs. Miller and endeavour to get her to buy them.

6007. Is it a common thing in Shetland, that the women would rather go to a private party and get money for their goods than take them to a merchant?-Yes; there are a great many purposes for which money is required. Suppose a parent wished to pay his child's school fees, or anything of that sort, of course cotton goods would not pay for that; only the money would do. But the hosiery is a very unimportant branch of business in our neighbourhood.

<Adjourned>

Hillswick, Northmaven: Thursday, January 11, 1872. <Present>-Mr. Guthrie.

WILLIAM BLANCE, examined.

6008. You are a fisherman at Ollaberry?-I am.

6009. Have you a piece of land there?-Yes.

6010. Who is your landlord?-Mr. Anderson of Hillswick.

6011. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. Adie. I have fished for him in the summer season for the last six years.

6012. Are you at perfect liberty to fish for any person you like?-I have had that liberty since I came to Ollaberry.

6013. Have you not always had it?-Before that time I was south. It is only within the last six years I have been going to the fishing.

6014. Are the people at Ollaberry at liberty to fish for any person they like?-I don't know whether I can answer that question.

6015. Why?-Because I should like to speak only of my own experience. I have not been bound myself, and another man might tell me a true statement, or he might tell me a false statement.

6016. Then your own experience is that a man is free?-I have been free for the last six years while I have been at the Faroe fishing. During that time I have had my freedom

6017. Was it because you went to the Faroe fishing that you had your freedom?-I could not go to the ling-fishing.

6018. Why?-For certain reasons of my own. My own bodily ability was one.

6019. Does it require a stronger man to go to the ling-fishing than to the Faroe fishing?-It requires healthy people, I suppose.

6020. Are healthy people required more in the ling fishing than in the Faroe fishing?-Yes.

6021. Do you know whether your neighbours at Ollaberry are at liberty to fish to any person they please in the ling fishing?-They are supposed to fish for their landlord.

6022. Do you understand that that is a part of the bargain under which they hold their ground?-I don't know; but I believe it is, from hearsay.

6023. Were you told so yourself when you took your ground?-My landlord told me he wished my fish, and I told him I could not give them to him.

6024. And you went to the Faroe fishing instead?-Yes.

6025. Do you consider that if you went to the home fishing you would be at liberty to engage with any fish-merchant who offered you a good wage?-[No answer.]

6026. Why do you hesitate to answer that question? You must have some idea about it?-I would not consider myself at liberty until I inquired at my land-master.

6027. Is that the way with the other fishermen at Ollaberry too: have they told you that that is the obligation under which they lie?-They might have told me, but I forget.

6028. Do you believe that it is the obligation under which they lie?- If you hesitate to answer that question, I must ask you the reason why you hesitate so [Page 150] much?-Well, I believe it is the understanding that they must fish to the master.

6029. When did you receive your citation to come here?-On 9th January.

6030. Have you spoken to any one on the subject since?-Yes.

6031. To whom?-I could not read the writing, and I asked a man to read it for me.

6032. Who was that man?-Mr. William Irvine.

6033. Is he Mr. Anderson's shopkeeper at Ollaberry?-Yes.

6034. Did you go to the shop for the purpose of asking him to read it to you?-I had other errands besides that.

6035. But you were at the shop, and you asked him?-Yes.

6036. Did he read it to you?-Yes.

6037. Did you say anything to him about it?-I told him I did not understand it, and I would like if he would explain it.

6038. Did he explain it?-Yes.

6039. What did he tell you about it?-He said I need not be afraid to go, and that I should tell the truth.

6040. Was that all that passed?-I don't remember anything else.

6041. Had you much conversation on the subject?-Oh no.

6042. Did he tell you what you would be asked about?-The special thing he told me I would be asked about would be what had taken place between me and himself.

6043. What did he tell you about that?-He told me to take any books with me, as I was requested to take pass-books or documents.

6044. Did he tell you that the principal thing you would be asked about would be your dealings with the man you were fishing to?- Yes.

6045. That is Mr Adie?-Yes.

6046. Did he tell you you would be asked anything about your dealings with your landlord?-No; he told me nothing about that. I asked him if there was any use taking my land receipt, and he said he did not think there was. That was all that passed about it.

6047. Was that all that passed between you about anything?-All that I remember.

6048. I am asking you these questions, only because you hesitated so much in some of your answers. You said the people at Ollaberry were under an obligation to fish for their landlord?- As I supposed.

6049. In point of fact, do all the men there who go to the home fishing fish for Mr. Anderson?-I cannot say whether all of them do it.

6050. Do you know whether most of them do it?-I cannot tell.

6051. Are you acquainted with all the people in Ollaberry?-No; I have only been four years there. I am a stranger on that side, so that I don't know many of the people.

6052. Do you know most of the people within a mile or two of you?-I don't think I do. I could not mention them by name.

6053. But you have spoken to most of them?-I think I have.

6054. Do they all fish for Mr. Anderson in the home fishing?-[No answer.]

6055. Do you know, or do you not? If you do not know, say so?- I believe they do; but I don't know.

6056. Have you ever known any man who wished to engage to another fish-curer, or to cure his own fish, or sell his fish as he pleased, during the season in Ollaberry?-No; there are none of the men who do that.

6057. Do you keep a shop account with Mr. Adie at Voe?-My dealings are there, for the most part.

6058. Is there any shop of Mr. Adie's nearer to your house than Voe?-I cannot say.

6059. How far is it to Voe from your house?-I have heard it called thirteen miles; but I don't know.

6060. Are you married?-Yes.

6061. Have you a family?-Yes.

6062. Where do you buy your provisions?-I buy provisions in Voe, or in any other shop, just as suits my convenience.

6063. Do you sometimes buy them at the Ollaberry shop?- Sometimes.

6064. Anywhere else besides Voe?-Yes, I buy sometimes at other places. I have bought something at Mr. Anderson's shop at Hillswick.

6065. Anywhere else?-Yes, I have had some things elsewhere too.

6066. Where?-At Usiness, at Mr. Gilbert Nicholson's.

6067. Has he a shop of his own there?-Yes; shop is his own, so far as I know.

6068. But you get most of your provisions at Voe, and you keep an account in Mr. Adie's books all the year round, which is settled about the end of the year?-Yes.

6069. Is the settlement always before the New Year, or is it sometimes later?-Sometimes it is later, but it is generally before.

6070. Have you got a pass-book?-Yes. [Produces it.]

6071. Have you generally a balance of cash to get at the end of the year from Mr. Adie?-No.

6072. Are you generally in his debt to some extent at the end of the year?-Yes.

6073. How much were you in debt last settlement?-It was for something over £7.

6074. Have you always been in his debt?-Not always.

6075. How long is it since you had a balance to get?-I am not sure, but I think it is four years ago.

6076. I see from your pass-book that you have got a number of sums of cash paid to you. There are 16s., 8s., 2s. 6d. twice, 9d., 1s. 2d., and 3s. in cash, between December 23, 1870, and November 27, 1871: did you always get these advances of cash to account of the fishing that was going on during this season?-I always got the cash when I asked it.

6077. Did you get these advances to account of the fishing that was going on last season?-I was at the fishing last year.

6078. And you were delivering fish to Mr. Adie at the time you got that cash?-Yes.

6079. You were also to some extent in his debt?-Yes.

6080. Did he give you cash when you asked for it?-Yes.

6081. Did you get cash from him with which to pay your rent?-A little: £2.

6082. That is not marked in your pass-book?-No.

6083. Did you get it since the last entry was made in your book?- I got it before January. That is not all my account.

6084. Have you another book?-No.

6085. But there are some things which you have got which are not put in here?-Yes; I have gone to the shop when I did not have my book, and I have got what I asked.

6086. What goods you got in that way when you did not have your pass-book were all put down in Mr. Adie's book, and you remembered about them when you came to settle?-Sometimes, and sometimes not.

6087. If you did not remember them, did you trust to the honesty of the shopkeeper?-Yes.

6088. Is your account read over to you at settling time?-Yes, if I ask it to be done.

6089. Do you generally ask it?-Sometimes I do not, if I am in a hurry to get home.

6090. Then you have perfect confidence in their honesty?-I always think it would do more harm to them than to me if they were not honest.

6091. Does Mr. Anderson send any smacks to the Faroe fishing?-

Not to my knowledge.

6092. Do you consider yourself under any obligation to ship in Mr. Adie's smacks for Faroe?-I do.

6093. Is that because you are in his debt?-Yes.

6094. Are there many other men who go in smacks for the same reason?-I cannot answer that.

6095. Have you ever heard any of your shipmates say they were in Mr. Adie's debt, and that they could not ship with anybody else?- Not so far as I remember.

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6096. Do you know whether, in point of fact, many of them are in debt to Mr. Adie?-I don't know.

6097. Have you ever heard that they were?-I don't remember.

6098. When are you told the price you are to get for your fish at the Faroe fishing? Is it at the settling time?-We are told some time before, but not long.

6099. You leave the selling of the fish in the hands of the merchant entirely?-Yes.

6100. Is it the bargain that you are to be paid according to the current price at the end of the year for your half of the fish?-Yes.

6101. Before bringing out your half, there is a deduction of 5 per cent. for commission?-I don't know about that. I have heard of it, but I cannot say anything about it. I forget about these matters.

6102. Do you understand the bargain you make, and the way in which the settlement is made for your fish?-We get one half of the fish, and have to pay for salt and for the drying of the fish.

6103. Do you know of any other deductions that are made from your earnings?-Yes; there is a deduction made for part of the bait with which the fish are caught.

6104. Is there not something for lines?-We generally buy our own lines.

6105. Are these set down as part of your account in the shop?- Yes.

6106. But not in the pass-book?-Perhaps not.

6107. The book you have produced is for your own family requirements?-I generally take the book with me; and when I have it, I mark into it what I get out of the shop.

6108. Is it the boat's crew, or is it you individually, who are liable for the lines?-Every man takes lines for himself, if he chooses.

6109. Do you fish any when you come home from the Faroe fishing?-I fish a little, but nothing that can do me any good towards selling. I get no selling fish.

6110. You only fish for your own use, then?-Yes.

6111. In a small boat of your own?-Yes; or sometimes on the stones.

6112. Do you never sell any of the fish that you catch when you come home from Faroe?-No; I have not sold any for the last four years, so far as I remember.

6113. Would it not be easier for you to get your shop goods at Ollaberry, rather than to bring them fourteen miles from Voe?-If I want it, I can get anything sent down to Ollaberry.

6114. How far is it from your house to the shop at Ollaberry?- About half a mile.

6115. Do you get things there as good as at Voe?-Yes.

6116. And as cheap?-Yes, so far as I can judge.

6117. Would you get them always at Ollaberry if you were not fishing for Mr. Adie?-I cannot answer that.

6118. If you were not fishing for Mr. Adie, would you take the trouble of going to Voe every week or every month, as you wanted, to bring meal or tea or anything you wanted to buy?- No, I would not.

6119. Do you get your meal at Voe?-Yes; most that we use comes from there.

6120. I see it is not entered in your pass-book?-No; because the meal has generally been sent in my absence, and I carry the book about with me.

6121. How is it sent?-I have got some of it sent from Aberdeen to Ollaberry direct.

6122. How much was there of it at a time?-I don't remember.

6123. Was there a quantity sent at the same time to other people besides you?-No; it was only for myself and my family. I got a boll, or a sack, or whatever I wished Mr. Adie to send for.

6124. Mr. Adie got it sent from Aberdeen to you?-Yes, because I could get it cheaper from Aberdeen than from his own store. The money, of course, was his.

6125. Are there any other men fishing for Mr. Adie at Ollaberry?-I don't think there are.

6126. How did the meal come to Ollaberry from Aberdeen?-It came by the steamboat to Lerwick; and there are two vessels that come north, either of which it might have come by,-either the little steamboat or a packet which ran there.

6127. What did you pay for that meal?-I cannot say.

6128. Is it settled for yet?-My account is squared up.

6129. Was it this year you got it?-Yes; but I have got it in previous years in the same way.

6130. Do you know what you paid for it before?-I don't remember.

6131. When was your account squared up?-Fourteen days ago.

6132. It was not squared up in your pass-book then?-No, I had it with me; but I wanted to get home soon, and I did not ask Mr. Adie to look over the pass-book.

6133. You saw there was a balance against you then?-Yes.

6134. Did you not ask the price of the meal you had got?-No.

6135. Did you not hear it mentioned?-No.

6136. Are there any people in your house who knit?-Yes; my wife knits.

6137. Where does she sell her hosiery?-She sells it at Ollaberry, or Lochend, or at Hillswick, whichever place is most convenient. She buys the wool, and spins it herself. The articles which she knits are not very fine, and she sells them to any person who will buy them.

6138. Is she paid in goods or in money?-Generally in goods.

6139. Does she sometimes get money?-No; she seldom asks for it.

6140. Why does she not ask for it? Does she not want it?-No, not so far as I know.

6141. Has she an account in these shops?-She has an account in some of them. She has an account with Mr. Laurenson at Lochend.

6142. Anywhere else?-I don't know.

6143. Is that an account in your own name, or in hers?-It is an account of her own, so far as I know.

6144. Is it quite a separate dealing from anything you have to do with?-Yes.

6145. Have you ever had to pay your wife's account at Mr. Laurenson's?-No.

6146. Has she ever got money from that account for her hosiery to pay for your rent or for anything you wanted to buy?-No.

6147. Is it the practice not to sell hosiery for money in your neighbourhood?-I cannot say. I know that the general thing is goods.

6148. When is your wife's account with Mr. Laurenson settled?- It is settled when she is able to pay it.

6149. Has she generally something to pay for what she gets, or has she a balance in her favour?-It is seldom she has a balance in her favour.

6150. If she has such a balance, is it settled in goods?-I cannot answer that. If she wanted money she might get it, for anything that I know.

6151. Do you pay a subscription to the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society?-Yes; 8s. a year.

6152. Have you ever lost any lines or a boat?-No.

6153. Have you ever had anything to receive from the Society?- Yes; I was once sent home when I was shipwrecked.

6154. Was that all you have had to get from it?-Yes.

6155. Do you know of any people who have been turned out of their land in Shetland?-Not in our district.

6156. Do you know of any who have been turned out elsewhere?-Yes; Mr. Walker turned out some Delting, on Major Cameron's estate.

6157. What was that for?-Because he wanted the land. Some of them were very anxious to sit if they could have done so, but I suppose they could not comply with his terms.

6158. Were these men fishermen?-Yes.

[Page 152]

6159. He did not want their service as fishermen?-Not to my knowledge.

6160. Do you know of any man who has been turned out of his ground for refusing to fish, or for selling his fish away from his landlord or tacksmaster?-Not that I remember of.

6161. Does your wife sell any eggs?-Yes.

6162. Anything else off your farm?-She has nothing else to sell.

6163. Where are your eggs sold?-We generally sell them in Ollaberry to Mr. Irvine.

6164. Have you an account there?-Yes.

6165. Is it settled at the end of the year?-If I am able to settle it; but if I am not able to settle, then it just stands.

6166. Are your eggs put down to your account?-No.

6167. Are you paid for them in cash?-Yes, if I want it.

6168. How do you pay your account there, if you never get money from Mr. Adie at Voe?-Generally in this part of the world we are not confined to one thing. People in this country have sometimes different ways of getting money.

6169. Do you follow some other trade?-Yes; I sometimes sew as a tailor.

6170. And you make a little money in that way?-Yes.

6171. Are you paid in money for your tailoring work?-Generally.

6172. Is that done for your neighbours?-Yes; but I generally work for Mr. Adie and I am paid in money for that.

6173. Do you go to Voe to work, or do you go there for it and take it home?-I take it home.

6174. Does the payment for that work go into your account with Mr. Adie?-If I don't want it paid to me, it goes into the account; but if I want money, I get it.

6175. When you want money to settle your account with Mr. Irvine at Ollaberry, is that where you get it?-Not always.

6176. You get it from a party for whom you have made a coat or trousers?-Yes.

6177. You say that your eggs don't go into the account with Mr. Irvine: are you always paid for them in cash?-Not always. We sometimes take goods for them; but if we wanted them to go in to our credit, they would go.

6178. Do you always take goods for them?-Generally.

6179. What is the price of your eggs?-For the last year or two they have generally been 6d.

6180. Can you sell them anywhere you like?-Yes.

6181. Could you sell them at Mossbank or at Brae if you could get a better price there?-So far as I know, we could.

6182. Nobody would make any objection to that?-Not so far as I know.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, THOMAS THOMASON, examined.

6183. You are a fisherman at Eshaness?-Yes; and I fish at the fishing station at Stenness.

6184. Have you a boat of your own?-I have a share of a boat.

6185. Who do you fish for?-I have fished for Mr. Anderson for a while, but I might fish to any one I choose. I have fished for Mr. Anderson for a number of years.

6186. Have you a bit of land?-Yes, on Tangwick estate-Mrs. Cheyne's.

6187. Who is the factor there?-Mr. Gifford of Busta.

6188. Are you quite at liberty to engage to fish with any merchant you please?-Yes, any one. I am at perfect freedom to fish to any man, and I have always been so.

6189. Do you keep an account with Mr. Anderson at Hillswick?- Yes; I always keep my own account myself.

6190. Have you a pass-book?-No.

6191. You have an account in his books?-I generally have.