Chapter V: Excerpt From Report of Mr. Peterkin, General Inspector of Board (10)

2742. You have pointed out some differences in answer to my questions with regard to several of the points, but you don't remember anything else on which you incline to differ from him?-No; I think there is very little in which I would be inclined to differ from him.

2743. Is there anything else you wish to state?-I should wish to make one explanation with regard to the evidence given in Edinburgh about the cost of the worsted for a 30s. shawl.

2744. That evidence has already been spoken to by Mr. Laurenson?-I did not hear his evidence.

2745. He stated that the worsted for a 30s. shawl would come to at least 10s.?-If it is Shetland wool, the worsted for a 30s. shawl would cost me about 12s.

2746. If a 30s. shawl is made with any other kind of wool, is there a difference in the cost of the wool?-There would be a difference of about 3s.

2747. The English wool would be about 3s. cheaper?-Yes.

2748. And the shawl would sell for how much?-I suppose for about that much less, or about 27s.

2749. A shawl exactly the same in other respects would be made out of English wool for 3s. less?-Yes; for 2s. or 3s. less.

2750. And it would also sell in the market for 2s. or 3s. less?- Yes.

2751. The knitting in that case would be paid at the same rate?- Yes.

2752. Do you buy much wool in Shetland?-We buy all the fine wool we can get. In fact, we cannot get supplied with as much Shetland wool as we want.

2753. You don't buy it to resell?-No; I just buy it for my own use.

2754. Is it the fact that some of your Shetland hosiery is sold without any profit at all?- There is some of it sold below cost price when it comes to be bad stock.

2755. Are gentlemen's drawers, for instance, sold without a profit?-I think they are sold at no reduction.

2756. Do you make any profit upon them?-Yes, I make a profit.

2757. You sell them south at a higher rate than you pay to the knitters for them?-Yes; at a shade higher, some of them.

2758. I have had evidence today from one gentleman that he bought them and sold them at a lower price. Do you think that is the case?-It is quite possible, and I have known instances of that with myself.

2759. Does that happen with you in some kinds of goods?-Yes; with certain kinds of goods which are produced in larger quantities than are required.

2760. But that over-production does not continue over a long period of time?-It does in the knitting trade with myself. I don't pay off any of the knitters; I keep them on.

2761. Can they not turn their attention to some other kinds of work when there is too much stock of a particular kind?-It is generally lacework, veils or shawls, that I give out for knitting.

2762. But when there is an over-production of that kind of goods, can the knitters not turn their hands to something else?-They do so occasionally.

2763. So that you have not an increasing stock of goods which you cannot sell at a profit?-Very often they cannot get the wool with which to make the coarser sort of goods. It is not to be got, and there is a very large proportion of the Shetland wool sent south, and sold as raw material.

2764. Then the women are restricted to the articles for which they have suitable wool?-Yes; both those who knit for themselves, and those who knit with the wool which we give out.

2765. That is to say, you have not always the kind of wool that you want?-No; we cannot get a sufficient quantity of fine Shetland wool; but I don't give out any wool for making coarse goods, only the lace goods. I don't give out wool for such things as men's underclothing and stockings.

2766. Have you anything else to say?-No; there is nothing more that occurs to me to say.

Lerwick, January 4, 1872, JAMES TULLOCH, examined.

2767. You are a merchant in Lerwick?-I am.

2768. You keep a drapery store?-Yes.

2769. Do you sell any other goods?-The only grocery goods I sell are tea and soap.

2770. Do you purchase hosiery?-My chief business in it is purchasing it. I have very few knitters employed.

2771. Do you pay them in money or goods?-It is the understanding that they are to be paid in goods; but I often give a few shillings when they ask for it, [Page 61] both when purchasing and when I employ the women to knit. I have only one or two persons knitting for me in Lerwick just now, and not more than three or four that I remember of in the country. My business in that way is mostly done by purchase.

2772. Do your knitters have pass-books?-No; the account with them is just kept in the day-book and ledger.

2773. You have an account in the ledger with each knitter?-Yes.

2774. Does it show what proportion of the payment to the knitter is made in cash?-No. In some cases the price is marked in and sometimes not.

2775. Then how do you know what you have paid if it is not marked?-The transaction is very often carried through without reference to the book at all, particularly in the case of a purchase.

2776. But I am speaking only of those knitters whom you employ. I am quite aware that in sales it generally a transaction that is finished at the time; but in the case of your knitters, how do you know how much is paid to them in cash?-I had many more knitters at one time than I have now, but I have given them up. With regard to the one who is knitting for me just now, I don't remember whether she ever asked me for any cash upon her knitting or not.

2777. Have you only one woman knitting for you just now?-I have only two, and one of them has had no knitting for some time. I don't remember of either of these two having ever asked me for money.

2778. They have an account in your books, and they take goods, and their account is balanced now and again?-Yes.

2779. Do you sell worsted?-No. For the last few months I have had a little of the Pyrenees wool to sell, and I have sold it.

2780. Is that extensively purchased by people who wish to knit?- There seems to be a good deal of it wrought into small articles at present. I have never wrought up any of it.

2781. Is it an article that is sold for cash?-Yes; but sometimes we give it out upon the work that is brought in.

2782. There is no difficulty made about giving it out upon a transaction of that sort?-No; not that kind of it. I never object to give Scotch wool.

2783. But you do object to give the Shetland wool that is purchased for cash?-Yes; we have a profit on the Pyrenees wool.

2784. Why is it called Pyrenees wool?-I don't know. It is sometimes called Scotch wool too.

2785. Is it the practice in your shop to give workers lines for a balance that is due upon goods sold?-Yes.

2786. What is the form of these lines?-I have one or two of them here. (Produces lines.) It is in this form:

'I O U 1s. 3d. in goods.
JAMES TULLOCH
3. 1. 72.'

There is a private mark in the corner which is only known to myself, showing the amount; and there is also a private stamp on the corner, as a guarantee for the genuineness of the line.

2787. The other one which you produce is a blank form?-Yes. I keep some of them on hand, ready for filling up.

2788. Can your clerk issue them in your absence?-Yes; he knows the private mark too, and he puts it there.

2789. Do you keep a register of these notes?-No; they are just given out as they are required, and goods are given for them when they are brought in. Sometimes I have given goods for a note which the people said they had lost or torn; but it is only as a matter of convenience for them that they are given at all.

2790. You would rather give the goods to them at once?-Yes. Sometimes lines are given to them when we do not have a particular thing they want; and we also give them out sometimes when we are in a hurry.

2791. Have you ever been asked to give money in return for these lines instead of goods?-I cannot charge my memory just now with any case of that kind, but sometimes it may happen. The lines are only given out for goods purchased, and not for knitting; and several times I have given 5s., and 4s., and 3s., and 2s., and so on, in cash; but if they ask for much money on a shawl, the understanding then is that I shall get it at a little less.

2792. That is arranged at the time of the sale?-Yes.

2793. But suppose the sale is concluded, and one of these lines is given for the balance, do you then understand that the whole sum due is to be taken in goods?-Yes. The reason why I expect to get the shawl for a little less if large part of the price is wanted in money, is because I never consider that I realize above what I pay in goods for my hosiery, and very often there is a heavy discount off. I have heard some of the other evidence which seems to clash a little with that, but I can easily explain it.

2794. What can you explain?-The apparent discrepancy between the value received in goods, and what the articles realize in the market. The hosiery market is a very uneven thing.

2795. If there is anything you can explain on which Mr. Laurenson and Mr. Sinclair have differed, I shall be glad to hear it?-Of course it is not my business to try to reconcile their evidence, but I was about to say that the hosiery market in the south is very irregular. It is done to some extent by a kind of, I can hardly call it favouritism, but there are houses in England that if they begin to buy from one party, they will not afterwards buy from another. If they get a very long credit, they will give a higher price, and I know of persons they are constantly dealing with to whom they will give 9s. or 10s., for an article, while they would only offer 6s. or 7s. for it to another.

2796. Are you now referring to people in the south?-Yes, wholesale dealers. And just as we may happen to get into the good graces of a good customer, so prices vary.

2797. But every article has a different price of its own, I fancy? You cannot price a Shetland shawl without seeing it and judging of it both as to the material and the workmanship?-No; that is quite true.

2798. You cannot get twenty shawls of a certain size at the same price?-No; but we can perhaps select them out of a greater quantity.

2799. But you cannot get twenty shawls made to order exactly of the same value?-No.

2800. What is your reason for carrying on that system of paying in goods?-It has been of old date. It was the practice when I commenced to the trade; but my own impression is that if a money system were adopted, only a very few of the producers would accept of it, because they would, as a consequence and as a general rule, have to take 20 or 25 per cent. less in money than they would get in goods. We buy with the understanding that we are to realize what we pay in goods. As I have said, sometimes for a certain article, or in a good market, a good deal more may be realized; but then we have the risk of loss, and we have a heavy discount; and therefore we have to live by the profit on the goods we sell. If we were to pay in cash, then of course we must buy at a lower rate, so as to give us some profit on the shawl, and consequently if a woman were to come in with a shawl, and to agree that the price was to be 20s. worth of goods, it is not likely that, unless she was very hard up for money, she would take 15s. or 16s.

2801. Can you give me any instance in which you have paid a cash price for a shawl which was lower than what you were willing to give in goods?-I don't recollect any case of that kind just now, except one.

2802. How long ago was that?-Not very long; perhaps a few months.

2803. What were the circumstances of that transaction?-It was one of these fine shawls. I don't know what I would have offered for it, but the person said she would give it to me for £2 in money, and it was agreed that that was to be the bargain. When [Page 62] I saw the shawl, it did not turn out to be quite so good as I had expected. The woman had got £1 of money at the time when the bargain was made, and after that she had taken up some goods out of the shop, and the balance of the price was taken out in goods.

2804. The bargain was made in that case, before the shawl was knitted?-No, the shawl was knitted.

2805. I thought you said, it did not turn out to be quite so good as you expected?-No, it was not quite so good when I came to see it as I expected from hearing of it.

2806. Had you looked at the shawl before you made the bargain?-I had seen her knitting it. I may remark, that very often these goods turn out better than they look when they are in an undressed state, and sometimes much worse.

2807. Have you any objection to adopt a cash system the people are willing to agree to it?-Of course I would have no particular objection; but my own impression is, that a cash system, if adopted, would give a very great check to the sale of goods.

2808. Don't you think it would be better for the merchant?-I don't know. I think a merchant would never risk so much if he had to pay in cash, or push so hard as he does now.

2809. Would the merchant in that case not make sure of getting two profits instead of one?-No, he would not do that.

2810. He would have a profit on his hosiery, because he would buy it at a cash price, and sell it at a price which would pay him for his risk, would he not?-There much competition in the trade already that the price kept up to its utmost point. Indeed, it is kept above what the goods actually realize.

2811. But if a man was depending upon the profit he was to get on his hosiery, he would not pay more for it than he could afford?- Of course he would not; but just as in other businesses, opposition here is sometimes the life of trade, and sometimes it is the death of trade.

2812. How do you apply that principle here?-There is sometimes such a keen competition that people cut up one another.

2813. Do you think the competition, would be so keen that the cash prices for the hosiery would be forced up to the level of the goods prices that are paid now?-That would depend. Those who had the best markets would be able to give the best, price, and no doubt they might by that means be able to drive others comparatively out of the trade.

2814. Is it the case, that you generally send your shawls south at such a figure as leaves you no profit upon them?-Taking it all in all, I never have any profit on certain articles. When I have an opportunity of selling to a private person, or when I get private orders, I generally realize a profit, but when I sell to wholesale merchants taking the thing as a whole, I consider that I have never realized the full price of my goods from the hosiery which I have sold.

2815. Is that one of the reasons which lead you to continue the system of paying in goods?-Of course, the system is quite general.

2816. No doubt; but supposing it were not general, would that be a reason for continuing it in order that you might make a profit out of the goods you give for the hosiery?-Of course I cannot say exactly what it might be, further than that, as I have already stated, we had to pay in cash, we would have to buy at considerably lower rates, and I am not aware that there is such a demand in the south as to enable us to do that.

2817. But you say that at present you do not make a profit upon the goods sent south?-Yes; I say that there is no profit upon the goods sent south, taking it as a general thing. The profit I have is upon the goods which I sell in exchange for the hosiery which I buy.

2818. You say you generally buy shawls: you do not get them knitted for you?-No, I have very few knitted for me.

2819. Suppose you pay 25s. for a shawl, at what price will you invoice that to your southern customer?-Generally, I would just invoice it at about the same price. Sometimes I am obliged to put it lower, but when an article after dressing turns out to be better than I expected, then I may put a shilling or so upon it.

2820. Do you keep an invoice-book?-I keep no invoice-book, but only a day-book and ledger.

2821. The day-book shows the number of shawls you send south, and the prices at which they are invoiced?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 4, 1872, WILLIAM JOHNSTONE, examined.

2822. You are a merchant in Lerwick in the same line of business that is carried on by Mr. Robert Sinclair?-Yes, something similar

2823. You deal in the same articles, and purchase hosiery in the same way?-Yes.

2824. Do you also employ knitters?-Yes.

2825. How many of them do you employ?-I can hardly tell. I have very few just now. I have sometimes had as many as from 30 to 50, but I have not nearly so many at present. I don't think I have a dozen altogether just now.

2826. Do they mostly live in Lerwick?-Yes.

2827. Are these knitters so employed by you paid for their work by taking goods, or do you, sometimes pay them in cash?-They are generally paid by taking goods. If they ask for a little cash at any time, I will give it.

2828. Are their names entered in your books?-Yes.

2829. Has each of them an account in your ledger?-Yes; a small book which I keep for the purpose. [Produces book.] We generally settle for an article when they bring it in, but sometimes there may be a balance on one side or the other.

2830. Does this book show the amount of cash that is paid for the shawls brought in to you?-No. There are many transactions that are never entered here at all.

2831. But does the book show the amount of cash that is paid for shawls which are knitted to order with your own wool?-No; when I give out wool for the knitting of a shawl, no note of it appears in the book at all.

2832. What note do you take of it?-I merely take a memorandum on a piece of paper.

2833. Then you may have a lot of slips of that kind lying beside you?-No. I very likely burn them whenever the shawls are returned, and if I know the woman sufficiently well, I may give the wool to her without keeping any note of it of any kind.

2834. Do you trust to your memory for that?-Yes. I weigh the wool before it goes out.

2835. What proportion of the wages of these workers is paid by you in money?-I cannot say.

2836. Will there be a shilling in the pound paid money?-I cannot say, but I think there will be more than that.

2837. May there be 2s.?-I cannot say exactly. Perhaps if they come with a shawl for which they are to get 8s. or 10s., they may get 1s. or 2s. upon it, but if they did not ask it, they would not get it.

2838. The understanding is that you pay them goods?-Yes.

2839. Are you often asked to give some money?-Very seldom; but whenever they ask for money, they get it, or any other thing I have in the shop.

2840. Can you explain how women who knit for you support themselves if they only get soft goods and tea for their knitting?- There are very few of them who do not do other work. There may be a few who do nothing but knit, but the greater part of the girls and women who employ themselves at knitting have other work to do besides. Some of them sew slop shirts for the agents shops, and various other things.

2841. These are required for the men who go to the whale-fishing?-Yes. [Produces day-book.] The [Page 63] details of the goods sent south are all there. It is only the amount that is posted into the ledger.

2842. What would be the cost of producing this one dozen socks [showing]?-They were bought with barter for exactly the same value of goods as is charged for them there. I have also to be at the expense of dressing them and packing them, and then perhaps lying out of my money for twelve months.

2843. Then you dress them for nothing?-I must dress them for nothing.

2844. Is not that a loss to you?-Yes.

2845. And you must pay yourself for that out of the profit on the goods which you give for them?-Yes.

2846. Is that a common thing in your trade?-I believe it is. Of course there are some of the articles on which there is a profit.

2847. I see here 'One brown half hap shawl, 3s. 9d.:' would there be a profit upon that?-There would not be much; perhaps there would be 8d. on it.

2848. 'One large hap, 18s.:' would you have a profit on that?- Yes; I might have about 2s. That article was made specially to order.

2849. Was it made with, your own wool?-Yes.

2850. 'One white hap, 9s. 6d.?'-There might be about 1s. on that hap.

2851. Was it bought over the counter for goods?-I think that one was made upon an order; but it was paid for by me in goods.

2852. There is another one at 9s. 6d.?-That is one of the same size and of the same colour.

2853. Suppose that 9s. 6d. hap had not been made to order, but had been bought over the counter and had been settled for with goods, what profit do you suppose would have been upon it apart from the goods?-I cannot say.

2854. Was 9s. 6d. the price which you paid to the party selling, or was it somewhat less?-It was 8s. 6d., and I would have a profit of a shilling on it.

2855. That was when it was knitted for you?-Yes.

2856. But I am speaking of articles which were bought by you: what profit would you have upon such an article then?-I could not tell unless I knew the kind of goods they were to take for it.

2857. But apart from the goods altogether, what would you give for a shawl that you would sell for 9s. 6d., if it was offered to you for sale?-Perhaps I might give 9s. 6d. worth or goods.

2858. Would that be the usual way of dealing?-Sometimes it is. It depends very much upon the quality of the article. Sometimes we pay a dear price for them, and at other times we get them pretty cheap.

2859. Do you say that you generally buy an article of that kind at the price payable in goods for which you sell it to the merchant in the south?-Very often we do.

2860. Therefore you take no profit off your hosiery at all?-In some cases we do not. We cannot get it; we are glad to get what we pay in goods for them.

2861. So that the fact that you get your goods disposed of, is the inducement which you have in buying an article over the counter?-Yes.

2862. Is that one of the reasons why this system of dealing in goods continues?-I believe that is the very reason of it, and the scarcity of money.

2863. Do you approve of the system, or would you rather have cash payments?-I would rather have cash payments.

2864. In that case would you not have two profits instead of one? You would make, sure of a profit on the hosiery, as you would be able to pay for it in cash?-Yes.

2865. And would you not have the same profit that you now have on the goods that you give for the hosiery?-I think we might.

2866. Would you not have a smaller profit upon them?-Of course, if we were selling for cash over the counter, we would try to cut the goods as low as we could.

2867. If you were selling your goods for cash over the counter instead of for hosiery, would you reduce your prices?-We could do that quite easily; because often we buy hosiery articles which lie on our hands for years and the moths get into them, and we get nothing for them at all.

2868. Therefore, in consequence of being paid in hosiery you must put a higher price upon the drapery goods and tea that you sell?-I do not put a higher price on them in consequence of that, because I generally charge the same price to those from whom I get hosiery as to those who pay me in cash.

2869. But if there was no such thing as paying hosiery with goods, you could sell your goods a little cheaper, because you must calculate upon a little loss on the hosiery?-Yes.

2870. So that both the customers who pay in hosiery, and those who pay in cash, are made to pay for a possible loss upon the hosiery?-Yes.

2871. In that way they are made to pay rather higher for their goods?-Yes.

2872. Does not that rather show that the system is a source of loss to the whole community?-There is not the slightest doubt about it, but what can we do until things are put upon a better footing.

2873. You would be glad to pay in cash if you could get your goods disposed of?-I would be very glad. For one thing, it would save us a little trouble.

2874. There is a complicated system of bookkeeping entailed by the present system?-There is.

2875. Have you had any balances to settle on lines or acknowledgments or vouchers?-No; I do not give any lines. I have always been against it.

2876. Did you give any formerly?-I gave them very rarely, unless when I could not help it.

2877. That is to say when a person came to sell hosiery to you and she did not want to take the whole price out in goods, you gave her a line?-Yes; if there was a balance then they would want a line for it.

2878. Would they not have preferred money?-They never asked for money; at least very seldom.

2879. How long, is it since you ceased to give these lines?-I have not given any lines for the last two years, or nearly that time, and I just gave them occasionally.

2880. What was your reason for laying down that rule?-Because there was such a great deal of bother about it. At a time when you were busy they would come in and pop down their lines and that is another secret in the line business. Some of the people like to sell shawls and get a line for them and then they go away and give that line to some other person, and that person comes in and orders goods of different kinds and prices them at the lowest rate we can give them for. Then, when they have screwed us down to the lowest price, they throw their line down upon the counter the same as if it were a bank-note.

2881. They do so, after having bargained and bothered with you to get you to reduce your prices, on the footing that they were to pay you in cash?-Yes; and of course you cannot refuse the line when it is offered to you. You must just take it and say nothing.

2882. Was that one of the reasons why you gave up giving lines?- It was not exactly for that I gave it up, but it was one of the reasons, because it was a great annoyance and bother. They would come in with the lines perhaps on mail-day, and bother us then.

2883. But a person might come in with a shawl on mail-day, and wish to take the value of it in goods. What would you do then?-I might tell them to come back again, and they would do it.

2884. Would they not do that if they had a line?-They would take care of that. They would get the goods they wanted, and then they would pop the line in.

2885. Then you think you are under an obligation to serve the people whenever they choose, if they have a line of yours?-Yes.

2886. But if the people have bargained with you, and you had offered them goods at a somewhat lower price for cash, and if a line was then offered to you in the way you have mentioned, would you not refuse to take the line in exchange for the goods?- No, I would not. It would not be right to do it.

[Page 64]

2887. Would you not say,-If you are to pay with a line, you must take the goods at the ordinary price?-I never thought of doing that, and I don't think anybody would do it.

2888. You would not like to have the appearance of drawing back from your bargain?-No; it would not look very well.

2889. Have you heard any of the evidence that has been given to-day?-I was present when Mr. Laurenson was examined, and also during the first part of Mr. Sinclair's examination.

2890. Do you concur generally with the statements which Mr. Laurenson made with regard to the trade in Lerwick?-Yes; I think he gave a very just statement.

2891. You think what he said was generally correct?-I think so.

2892. Do you know how the women who live alone, and entirely by knitting, get their provisions?-I used to keep meal, but I don't do it now. I cannot do it, because it destroyed my place with moths.

2893. Do you know how these women supply themselves with meal now?-I cannot say.

2894. Most of them are likely employed at other work as well as at nitting?-Yes.

2895. But some of them will do nothing else?-There are very few who do nothing else, except those who are in bad health, and who are not able to work outside.

2896. Have you known any of these women taking goods from you and selling them again, in order to get money?-No; I never heard of any one doing that, so far as I know.

2897. But at the time when you gave I O U's they often exchanged them for money?-Yes; or gave them to some other body to come to my shop with them. These are the only cases where I knew of them being exchanged. I heard yesterday, when I was present, that yarn had been refused upon these lines, but I always gave them yarn when they asked it from me.

2898. Did you give them Shetland yarn?-I seldom had it for my own use, but I have often given them Pyrenees wool.

2899. I suppose the reason why the idea has arisen among the knitters that they cannot get wool in exchange for their work, is because Shetland wool is very difficult to get?-I suppose so.

2900. The merchants don't keep it for sale?-No; they cannot get enough of it. I may say that I supply the women with sugar and tea, and with paraffin oil when have it.

2901. I think you are the only soft goods merchant in Lerwick who keeps sugar?-I don't know. Perhaps there are more; but I keep sugar, tea, coffee, rice, and brimstone, which they need for dressing their shawls.

2902. Is it the case that your purchases of hosiery are more commonly paid in tea and sugar than in drapery goods?-The knitters who work to me generally take what tea and sugar they require. They also take drapery goods when they need them. When we buy hosiery over the counter, it is generally drapery goods that are paid for them; but they get tea also if they ask for it.

2903. The tea is made up in quarter-pound parcels?-Yes.

2904. Do you know of any case where it has been exchanged after being purchased from you?-No.

Lerwick, January 4, 1872, HUGH LINKLATER, examined.

2905. You are a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes.

2906. Is the business which you carry on similar to that of Mr. Laurenson?-No. I don't give out wool for people to knit. I only purchase a little over the counter, and I do very little of any kind in the fancy line.

2907. You do more in the coarser hosiery?-Yes.

2908. Do you deal largely in that business?-No, I don't do much in hosiery at all.

2909. What is your business?-Selling drapery goods.

2910. Do you sell them in the ordinary way for cash?-Yes, and I take a little hosiery when it is offered in exchange.

2911. But the bulk of your transactions are in cash?-Yes.

2912. Are you engaged in any other business?-No.

2913. Do you concur generally in the evidence which Mr. Laurenson gave, so far as the hosiery business is concerned?-I do. I think he gave a very fair statement of it.

2914. You do not wish to add anything to it?-No, for it is not much that I do in that line. I may say that I don't do any in fancy goods at all, I am not much acquainted with them.

2915. But you have a considerable trade in drapery goods and tea for cash?-Yes, or in exchange for goods. It is principally with country people that I deal.

2916. With small farmers and such like?-Yes.

2917. Do you find that they are generally ready and able to pay you in cash for the goods you sell?-There are some cases where I hate to lie out of it for a good while.

2918. But your general mode of dealing is in cash?-Yes; but if they come forward with an article which is suitable for my hosiery trade, I may take it and give them goods for it, the same as if they were to pay me in cash.

2919. Money payments are the rule in your shop, and hosiery the exception?-Yes.

2920. But when you are offered hosiery, is there a different price charged by you for your I make no difference. I buy their hosiery, such of it as I accept, the same as cash, and I expect to get a cash price for it.

2921. In selling hosiery, do you put a profit upon it?-By no means.

2922. You sell it at the price which you put upon it to the person who brought it?-Yes, so that I can get the price of my goods.

2923. You regard it merely as a currency in which you are paid for your proper drapery goods?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 4, 1872, JOHN MANSON, examined.

2924. You were at one time a fisherman at Dunrossness?-Yes.

2925. You are now employed on weekly wages by Mr. Harrison, fish merchant, Lerwick?-Yes.

2926. You cure his fish when they are landed in Bressay?-Yes.

2927. You are his superintendent there and have charge of all his men?-Yes.

2928. How many men are employed under you?-It is generally women and lads who are employed under me.

2929. Is Mr. Harrison a large trader in the home fishing?-Not in the home fishing; principally in the Faroe fishing.

2930. Are his fish from that fishery landed in Bressay?-Yes.

2931. How many people are generally employed there?-The numbers vary according to the demand for work. They may range from 80 to 60 hands daily for five months in the year, during the fish-curing season.

2932. Mr. Harrison has a store in Lerwick, where he sells all kinds of provisions and dry goods?-Yes, he has a provision shop and a clothier's shop; they are different shops.

2933. Do you and the other persons employed in his fish-curing establishment deal at these shops? Do you get your supplies for your families there?-Not generally, unless we choose to do so.

2934. But in point of fact, do you get many of your [Page 65] supplies there?-I buy the greater part of my groceries from that shop.

2935. Is there any obligation upon you to do so?-No.

2936. You have never been told that you ought to do that?-No.

2937. Do you deal at the shop for ready money?-Yes.

2938. You pay for the articles as you get them?-Yes.

2939. How are your wages paid to you?-In cash.

2940. Are you paid at the end of each week?-Yes; unless when the weather prevents us from getting across the Sound, which does not very often occur.

2941. When you or any of your family come over to make your market in Lerwick, and go to Mr. Harrison's shop, do you bring with you the money which has been paid to you in Bressay?-We are paid at Lerwick in Mr. Harrison's office, for our work; and if we choose to go into either of his shops we can do so. We get the cash at the office; and if we go to the shop, we pay that cash for the soft goods or groceries which we get, but we can take the money to any other shop we please.

2942. Is the office near the shop?-The office and the clothier's shop are connected they are both on the same premises.

2943. Do many of the people employed under you deal at these shops?-Not so far as I am aware. They do deal there in a certain way, but not in a compulsory way.

2944. Is there any system of pass-books carried on there?-Not so far as I am aware.

2945. You don't think any of them have pass books at the shop?- I don't think it. I may mention in passing, that very often when we get our wages, instead of being urged to buy from them, are cautioned to use our wages in the most economical way possible, and to go elsewhere if we think we can be better

2946. Who cautioned you in that way?-Mr. Harrison himself. I don't mention that as giving you an idea that there is any grievance in the way of our not getting as good remuneration for our money in these shops as we do elsewhere, but to show the independence of the service. We are in no way bound.

2947. I know that you have not come here because you have any complaint at all?-No; I have no complaint to make in that way.

2948. Do you find the supplies which you get in these shops to be quite satisfactory?-Quite satisfactory.

2949. Do you know anything with regard to the dealings at that store of men employed, in the Faroe fishing?-Yes, a little.

2950. Is that from your own personal knowledge, or merely from hearsay?-A little from my own personal knowledge. I know the way in which the men deal with regard to getting their outfit when the fishing commences.

2951. You know that they go to the store for their outfit and that is put down in a ledger account against each man?-Yes, each man has generally a private account for himself.

2952. The contract for the Faroe fishing is that the fisherman makes certain supplies for the ship, and he is to get one half of the take?-Yes.

2953. Is the price for the fish fixed at the beginning of the season or at the end?-At the end.

2954. And no fisherman knows the price he is to get until the settlement time comes round?-Not so far as the Faroe fishing is concerned.

2955. During the absence of the fisherman at the fishing, are his family generally supplied with goods from the employer's store?- Generally; if the family are in circumstances to require supplies. Plenty of them do not require them, but those who do are supplied in that way.

2956. Do you mean that they are supplied with goods?-They are supplied with goods and cash.

2957. How does it happen that some of them do not require supplies?-A few of them live in the country, and have little patches of land, and they do not require so much goods during the season as others.

2958. Do you know the way in which the business is conducted as between these fishermen and the store?-So far as I know, they get what they ask.

2959. Do they get what money they ask?-They get money or goods, whatever they ask.

2960. And an account runs, which is settled at the end of the year?-Yes.

2961. Is there any obligation on these Faroe fishermen to deal at the store?-Not so far as I am aware.

2962. Are they not obliged to deal there for their outfit?-It is generally understood that they will take their outfit there, because it is more like giving them an advance of money than anything else.

2963. What is the name of Mr. Harrison's store-keeper in Lerwick?-There is no special storekeeper; he has several shopkeepers.

2964. But who attends to the shop?-James Mouat is in the clothier's shop.

2965. Who gives out the stores to the fishermen for their outfit?- Mouat generally gives them anything in the way of soft goods, and Gilbert Harrison, junr. supplies them with what they require in the provision shop.

2966. However you have not much experience of that part of the business?-Not much.

2967. I suppose you don't know much about Dunrossness at present?-Not much just now; it is ten years since I was a regular resident there.

2968. Have you been there lately?-It is about twelve months since I was there last.

2969. Have you relations living there still?-Yes. I have brothers there.

2970. What was the reason for your leaving Dunrossness?- Because I thought I could better myself elsewhere.

2971. Had you a farm there?-Yes.

2972. Have you one here?-No.

2973. When you were at Dunrossness, were you bound to fish to any particular person?-No; I happened not to be bound at that time, but I was singular in that respect because there were not many who were not bound.

2974. Is it a common thing in Shetland for a fisherman not to be able to fish for any one he likes?-It is quite common where the landlord is also a fishcurer.

2975. Can you tell me any men who are so bound in any part of the islands?-I think that generally the tenants on the estates of Mr Grierson and Mr. Bruce are bound to fish for their landlords.

2976. You don't know any other case within your own knowledge where a fisherman has been checked for fishing to another than his landlord or tacksman?-No, not within my own knowledge.

2977. Nor for taking goods from a store other than that of his landlord, or employer?-No; I understand that is the case in other parts of Shetland, but only from report. I don't know it from personal knowledge.

<Adjourned>.

[Page 66]

Lerwick: Saturday, January 6, 1872. <Present>-Mr. Guthrie.

MALCOLM MALCOLMSON, examined

2978. Are you a fisherman at Channerwick?-I am.

2979. Do you hold land there?-My father holds land under Mr. Bruce of Simbister.

2980. Robert Mouat was formerly tacksman of Channerwick and Levenwick under Mr. Bruce?-Yes.

2981. He carried on a fish-curing business there up till last year?- Yes.

2982. During the time he held the tack, were the tenants there in use to fish for and deliver their fish to Mouat?-Yes.

2983. Was it supposed that there was an obligation on them to deliver their fish to him only?-Yes; they thought so.

2984. Was it the case that there was such an obligation?-It was not, but in their ignorance, they did not know otherwise.

2985. How do you know it was not the case?-Because afterwards, when he was put out of the place, Mr. Bruce, the proprietor, told them they never were bound to Mouat; only that if he gave them as high a price as was given in the country, and served them as well in every respect as they could be served anywhere else, why should they not fish to him as well as to another? If, however, Mouat came anything short of that, then they were under no obligation whatever, but they could put their produce where they pleased, and they had only to pay him their rent on a given day.

2986. When did Mr. Bruce tell you that?-In 1871.

2987. Had he never told you so before?-He never told the tenants that before. He had given a statement to Mouat before, but Mouat never revealed it to the tenantry until after his departure; and then it was known, and only then, how matters stood.

2988. To whom did Mr. Bruce make that statement? Was it in writing, or to some particular person?-I could not exactly answer that for I have never seen the statement myself. It is only from hearsay among the tenantry at large that I know about it.

2989. Have you heard that from many of the tenants?-Yes, from many.

2990. What is your father's name?-Malcom Malcolmson. He is unable to come here, unless it is absolutely necessary.

2991. Is he not in good health?-No; not at present.

2992. Was it the practice in Mouat's time to require the tenants to deliver their fish to him only?-Yes.

2993. Did he object to their selling them to others?-Yes.

2994. Did he turn out any people for doing so, or threaten to turn them out?-He threatened a few, and turned out one

2995. Who was that one?-Henry Sinclair, Levenwick.

2996. Was that a long time ago?-Yes; a few years ago. I don't remember the number of years in particular but it is a good while ago.

2997. You have given me a letter in these terms:

'MOUL, 18<th Jan>. 1869. 'Mr. Malcolm Malcolmson. 'Dear Sir,-I am sorrey to think that I shoud hav met to-day what I have, but you will be pleased to lok out for A place at Martamas 1869, 'ROBT. MOUAT, 'as I am goen to set your land.'

What had he met that day?-He had received intelligence from his storekeeper at Channerwick that Malcolm Malcolmson's son (that is myself) had given part of the fish of Thomas Jamieson's boat to another fish-merchant, Thomas Tulloch, in Sandwick parish.

2998. Does Tulloch live in Sandwick?-Yes, near Sand Lodge.

2999. He keeps a shop and cures fish there?-Yes.

3000. How do you know that that was the reason for this letter being written?-Because Mouat told my father himself in my presence.

3001. Was that before or after the letter was received?-It was after the letter was received, and when my father asked the reason why he was to give his land to another.

3002. Was your father put out of the farm at that time?-He was not.

3003. How did that happen?-Because he lost the use of one of his hands or of his right thumb, and Mouat had a sort of sympathy with him as being unable to earn his bread as he used to do before, and therefore he let him alone for a season until he could get round again, and regain perfect health and strength, but before that season rolled round, Mouat was out the place himself.

3004. Did you consider yourselves bound to take goods from Mouat's store?-We could not do anything else.

3005. Why?-Because we had no money to purchase them with from other stores. We received no money during the fishing season.

3006. Did you ever ask for advances of money during the fishing season?-Yes; but they were refused.

3007. Why?-Because he just would not give it. He gave no reason, except that he could not give it.

3008. But you would get any kind of goods you wanted?-Yes.

3009. What was the quality of the goods at Mouats' store?-They were of a very inferior quality to what we could purchase anywhere else in the island.

3010. Are you speaking just now from your own knowledge, or from the common understanding of the people about?-I am speaking from nothing else but my own knowledge.

3011. But are you a good judge of the quality of goods?-I cannot say that I am a very good judge, only I know well enough a bad article from a good one.

3012. What particular thing are you speaking of just now?-Say cottons, moleskins, and cloth.

3013. And what as to the provisions?-They were of inferior quality as well. We had meal from his store which he called his second flour. It was as dear, if not dearer, than we could purchase it anywhere else, and it was of such a quality that it could not be eaten by human beings.

3014. Then you did not eat it?-It had to be eaten for the support of life, while it existed; but had it not been for the provisions that came from other stores, and from people who had them to sell, Mouat's tenantry could not have been alive now, and I among the rest.

3015. How could they get provisions from other stores if they had no money to purchase them with?-They made a statement of how they were situated under Mouat, and how they could not receive any meal at all, and that they had to give all their fish to him; and the other shopkeepers felt such sympathy for them, that they gave them supplies to save their own lives and the lives of their families, and to put the men to the fishing. At the same time, when they gave them these supplies, they had no expectation whatever of receiving anything for them from a good many, because they were so poor that they could not give it.

3016. Do you think the storekeepers gave the fisher [Page 67] men credit, without any expectation of being repaid?-One of the shopkeepers told me so himself.

3017. Who was that?-James Smith, Hill Cottage, Sandwick parish.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, WILLIAM MANSON, examined.

3018. Are you a fisherman at Channerwick, in Sandwick parish?- Yes.

3019. Do you hold a piece of land under Mr. Bruce of Simbister?-Yes.

3020. It was formerly included in the tack to Robert Mouat?-Yes.

3021. Were you bound to fish for Mouat?-Yes.

3022. Did you give your fish to any other merchant during the time of his tack?-Yes. In 1870, the year that Mouat failed in business, I gave my fish to James Smith, because I saw I could not live for want of meal, and therefore I and some others were determined to give our fish where we could get both meat and money; and for doing so, Mouat served me with a summons.

3023. Were Smith and Tulloch the only fish merchants in that neighbourhood besides Mouat?-Yes; they cure fish, but not in a large way.

3024. But they buy your fish, and sell you provisions and goods?- Yes.

3025. In consequence of selling your fish to Smith, did you receive a letter from Mouat?-Yes; I have lost that letter.

3026. Did it warn you that you were to leave your ground?-Yes.

3027. Did you also get a formal warning to quit?-I did. I have it. [Produces summons of removing.]

3028. This is a summons at the instance of Robert Mouat, residing in Lerwick, principal tenant under Robert Bruce, Esq. of Simbister, dated 29th September 1870, giving you warning to leave at Martinmas: was that summons served upon you by a sheriff officer?-Yes.

3029. Did you leave in consequence of it?-No; it was in the latter part of the harvest that I received it, which was a very inconvenient time for me to leave, and I went to Mouat and spoke to him about it. He told me that if I would promise to be an obedient tenant, and agree to fish for him the same as I had been doing before, and pay the expense of the summons, I could stay. I knew that it was then coming towards the end of his lease, and I agreed to do that. If I had thought he was to continue longer on the place, I would have left.