Chapter V: Excerpt From Report of Mr. Peterkin, General Inspector of Board (30)

7894. For what length of time is your lease?-For ten years.

7895. Do you know whether there is a difficulty in getting premises for shops in other parts of the district?-I cannot say, because I never tried.

7896. What is the price of your meal just now?-The fact is, we have none.

7897. Do you not sell meal?-Yes, I sell it. My meal is 16d. a peck all through the year.

7898. Is that higher or lower than the price at the Mossbank shop?-I think it is 1d. below it.

7899. Is your meal of the same quality as the meal there?-I think so. I get my meal from Aberdeen.

7900. Is it better than the meal sold at Mossbank?-I could not say that.

7901. Do you get it from Bremner & Grant?-Yes, and sometimes I get it from Tulloch. I generally get it by the sack or boll; and if any person takes a sack or boll from me, I give it at what it cost me, adding something for freight.

7902. You sell it at 16d. per peck; how much is that per boll?- There are about 17 pecks to the boll, but you will not get a boll to weigh out 17 pecks. There should be 171/2 in it, but weighing out pecks and half pecks the boll will not weigh out so much as 17.

7903. Are most of the people about Mossbank employed by Pole, Hoseason, & Co. at the fishing?-Yes most of them.

7904. Is there anybody there who fishes for one else?-James Hay fishes for Mr. Adie, Voe. That is all I know.

7905. Does he go to Voe to fish?-No; he fishes at Feideland Station.

7906. With that exception, will all the people within two or three miles of Mossbank be fishing for Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-Yes; I think most of them.

7907. Or within five miles?-I could not say for five miles; but I think most of them will.

7908. Do most of them deal at Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s shop?-I believe they do.

7909. Very few of them come to you?-Occasionally they do, but not to any great extent.

7910. Do you think you would have a greater number of customers if you were employing boats yourself for the fishing?- I cannot say; perhaps I might.

7911. Have you not thought of turning your attention that way?- Not as yet.

7912. How is it that the men are at liberty to sell fish to you if they are engaged to Pole, Hoseason & Co.?-They are engaged in the summer time with the large boats, because the large boats belong to Pole, Hoseason, & Co.; but the small boats which they use in the winter time belong to the men themselves, and it is more convenient for the men living in the neighbourhood of my house to sell their fish to me than to Pole, Hoseason, & Co. It would be better for them to sell their fish to me 6d. per cwt. cheaper than to go to Mossbank with them. The boats are their own, and the men are not in debt to Pole, Hoseason, & Co., and therefore they can do with these fish as they please.

7913. Do you also buy fish from men who are in debt to Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-I don't know whether they are in debt to them or not. I take fish from every one who brings them to me.

7914. Do you buy many fish during the winter season in that way?-Not a large quantity. Perhaps. I might have about 11/2 or 2 tons of dry fish in the spring; that would be about the amount of it.

7915. Are these worth about £20 a ton?-No; I got £17, 10s. last year for them.

7916. Then these fish don't sell so well as the summer cured fish?-No; some of them are very small.

7917. Do the men about you not think it would be more profitable for themselves to cure their own fish?-They could not manage it, because they have no cellars or stores in which to keep salt, or convenient beaches on which to dry the fish.

7918. Did not the men formerly cure their own fish in Shetland to some extent?-I don't know.

7919. Don't they try to do it still?-Some of them do it still in Shetland; but in the winter time they must have a booth for the purpose of salting their fish and keeping them.

7920. Do you sell soft goods in your shop as well as provisions?- No. We sometimes had a bit of white cotton last year for making oil cloths, or the like of that, but we have none now.

7921. Do you think the men about you are not able to purchase from you so much as they would otherwise do from want of having money in their pockets?-That is a thing I cannot say anything about, because I never know what any man has in his pocket. We never talk about that. I might have my ideas on the subject, but I could not speak positively about it.

7922. It is your ideas I want to know, and what, you feel in your own experience. What is your opinion on the subject?-I believe it might be better, for the men if they were allowed to buy or not as they thought proper.

7923. But do you think the extent of your dealings, is less than it would be if the men had ready money payments?-I could not say for that.

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7924. Supposing you provided as good an article as Pole, Hoseason, & Co., would the men come to you in greater numbers if they were paid in cash shorter periods?-I could not say. They just come to as their own minds lead them, but I believe they would still go to Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s shop, even although they had money.

7925. But don't you think they are prevented from coming to you by their want of money?-They may be in some cases.

7926. You say you have your own ideas about that: what are they?-I believe it might be the idea of man that he might get a better article if he could come to me for it, or go to Pole Hoseason, & Co.'s shop, just as he liked.

7927. But suppose a man does want to come to you, and I suppose some of your friends would be very glad to deal with you, do you know that they are sometimes in want of money, and thus prevented from coming?-I don't know.

7928. Do the men not prefer to go to a place where they can get what they want on credit?-I don't know about that either.

7929. Have you never been told that?-No.

7930. Have you never suspected it?-No. I think they just go where they please themselves. Perhaps they might get a better bargain from another man than from me, and yet they might come to me or go past me.

7931. Are you quite content with the system of long settlements which goes on at Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s, and that the men should run accounts there?-No, I am not satisfied with that. I think it would be better for the people to have no accounts at all.

7932. Do you mean that it would be better for their own sakes?- Yes.

7933. What would be the advantage to them?-For my own part, if I had no money, but if I might go to a shop and take out more goods than perhaps I ought to do, without regard to whether I would be able to pay them or not; whereas if a man did not have that liberty, but went into a shop with few pence in his pocket, he might make it spin out better, or more to his own advantage.

7934. Do you think he might get his meal cheaper by going to another shop and paying for it in cash?-He might, or he might take better care of his money, and manage to spin it out more.

7935. I suppose a merchant like yourself, if you were giving long credit in that way, would require little more profit on your goods?-Of course.

7936. But you can afford to sell cheaper because you are paid in cash?-Yes; and I think it would be better for the public in general if all payments were made in cash.

7937. Do you employ some men in your curing business?-No; I just do it with my own family. Sometimes I get a little boy to help me for a while, but that is all.

7938. When you were employed in the Faroe fishing, did you get cash from the merchant in the course of season, when you happened to come home, whenever you wanted it?-Yes.

7939. Could your wife get cash?-She did not require it, and she did not ask it.

7940. Is there any sort of feeling that people don't like to ask for cash before the settlement?-That might have been the case with some, but it was not with me, because I did not need the cash until it was due.

7941. Then generally you did not ask for it until it was due?-No.

7942. Do you think there is much money among the people in your neighbourhood during the summer time?-I don't think there is much.

7943. Is it generally spent soon after settling time?-Yes.

7944. Do you find that your cash transactions are greater at one season of the year than at another?-I cannot say that. I have only been one year in business, and I have not made any calculation about that.

Brae, January 13, 1872, ARTHUR THOMAS JAMIESON, examined.

7945. You are the son of Jacob Jamieson, residing at Brae?-Yes.

7946. You were employed by me on Wednesday last to go to Mossbank, and to purchase some articles from the shop of Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co., there?-Yes.

7947. You went there and purchased these articles without saying who they were for?-Yes:

7948. You have brought to me half a pound of sugar, for which you paid 3d.?-Yes.

7949. A quarter lb. of tea for which you paid 81/2d.?-Yes.

7950. A quarter lb. of tea for which you paid 7d.?-Yes.

7951. And 4 lbs. of oatmeal for which you paid 81/2d.?-Yes.

7952. You have now delivered these articles over to the clerk?-I have.

7953. Were these all the articles you purchased?-Yes.

7954. Are they exactly in the same state now as when you bought them?-Yes.

7955. They are contained in the same parcels as when they were put up in the shop?-Yes.

7956. Have you any reason to believe that the prices which you paid for the articles are different from those which are charged for the same qualities of articles at other times in that shop?-There is no difference, so far as I know.

Brae, January 13, 1872, JAMES BROWN, examined.

7957. Have you a shop?-Yes; a small one.

7958. Where?-At Brough, in North Delting, about two miles from Mossbank.

7959. What do you deal in?-Groceries; nothing else.

7960. On whose land is your shop?-Mr. Gifford's of Busta.

7961. How long have you had it?-The shop has been going on for about ten years.

7962. Were you at any time forbidden, either verbally or by your lease, to have a shop on that ground?-No; I was told to go on.

7963. Was there a shop there before you went?-Yes; they always used to keep some small articles there for sale.

7964. Do your customers generally pay you in ready money?- Yes; I deal all in ready money; and I buy fish for cash. I am a fisherman myself, and I buy few fish from others as I have a chance, paying money for them, and my family cure them.

7965. Is it the summer fishing you go to?-I am at home all the year round at the sea-side, and I fish there, but they are generally small fish I take.

7966. You don't go to the haaf?-No.

7967. Have you a boat's crew?-No. My father and a boy go along with me.

7968. Are you able to cure both your own fish and the fish which you buy from other men?-Yes.

7969. What quantity do you buy from other men?-It varies in different years. When there are plenty of small cod in the Sound, I may have 11/2 ton during the season, while in other seasons I may have only the half of that.

7970. Is it only the small fish you buy?-If bigger fish were offered to me I would buy them, but there are no bigger fish caught along the shores.

7971. Do you not buy fish in the summer time?-Yes.

7972. Do you buy fish brought in by the large boats at that time?- No; the men take them to the stations.

7973. Do they not bring any of the big fish to Mossbank in the summer?-No; they are sold at the stations.

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7974. Do you never go there to buy fish?-No; I am content with the home fishing.

7975. Are the men bound to sell the small fish they get in the winter to any particular merchant?-They sell these fish to any one they like. There is no restriction upon them for that. Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co. never say anything about it.

7976. Do you run any accounts in your shop?-Scarcely any. There may be 1s. or an ounce of tobacco or any small thing of that kind, marked down.

7977. Are you often asked to give credit for a short time?-Very often.

7978. The men are not always in possession of ready money?- No; they are very often out of money.

7979. At what period of the year are they best off for money?- About our place in the winter time if it is good, and if they are catching a few cod, that is just about as good a time for them as any.

7980. Do they not also have a good deal of cash after settling time?-After settling time they have always a little.

7981. Is your trade better at that time than at other periods of the year?-When it is good weather, and anything doing at the fishing, or when the men have come from Feideland with the money which they had got at settlement, they trade more at my shop, as a rule, than at other times.

7982. Is June and July a good time for your shop?-Not very good; because most of the men are away at the fishing. There may be two or three boats manned by old men at home; but, with the exception of what they bring in from the Sound, I have nothing else to depend upon.

7983. Are not the men's wives and families at home, and requiring provisions?-Yes; and I may have the chance of a few dozen eggs, or any produce of that sort.

7984. That is for buying, but I mean for selling: is June and July a good season for the selling of your goods?-No; it is the worst time of the year for me.

7985. Why is that?-Because the men are all away at the fishing.

7986. But their wives are left, and they require something to keep them alive?-They are always working in what is called the kelp, and they go to Mr. Pole with that, so that I have no chance of buying it. I might have a chance of it, but I don't think it would pay me, as I don't know anything about it.

7987. Don't you think that if you had the chance of buying as much kelp as you liked in the summer time you might drive a better trade at your shop?-I might do a little better; but Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co. have the shores contracted for, so that they must get the kelp. They pay so much to Mr. Gifford for the shores, and in return for that they are entitled to the kelp, and they must have it.

7988. Do they pay in ready money for the kelp?-They make no scruple to give ready money for it, if a somewhat lower price is taken.

7989. But the people generally take goods for it?-Yes; they generally take the price in goods, or if they ask money, they will receive 6d. less per cwt., which I think is not unfair.

7990. If it was paid in ready money, I suppose you would have a chance of getting some of the custom of these kelp-gatherers?- Yes; if every man had his freedom to go where he liked, I would have a chance.

7991. Then I suppose the reason why sales are larger in winter and less in summer is, that the people have not ready money to go to your shop for the goods they want?-No; the men are all at the ling fishing in the summer time and all the chance I have is in the winter time, when they are at home fishing in the small boats.

7992. But even although they were at home in summer, they would not have ready money with which to come to you?-No. A man might not have ready money continually, unless he was paid every day for his catch.

7993. Would it not be better for your business if the men were paid every day or every week for their fish?-I don't think it would be any better for me unless I was out at the fishing station.

7994. But their families would have the money, and they might come to you with it?-They might.

7995. The men don't take their wives and children to the fishing station?-No.

7996. But I suppose the wives and children have very little money when the men are away at the stations?-Very little.

7997. Is that the reason why they get their supplies from the merchant's shop?-Yes.

7998. Only if they had the money they might go with it to another dealer, from whom they might get their articles cheaper?-They might.

7999. Do you sell your meal any cheaper than it is sold at the Mossbank shop?-No. I don't see that I can sell it any cheaper than Mr. Pole can.

8000. What is the price of your meal just now?-I deal very little in that. I only sell a few groceries-such as tea, tobacco, sugar, soap, soda, spice, pepper, and things of that kind. I might also have a sack or two of meal about the beginning of August, when it is most required.

8001. Where do you buy your meal?-For the most part in Lerwick, but I send south for a little of it.

8002. Do you think it would be better for the people in the country if a ready money system were introduced?-I think so. I think it would be better for the big merchants also to pay in money. I have had that idea all along, that it would be better both for the merchants and the people to pay in cash.

8003. Why would it be better for the people?-Because they would have the cash to please themselves with, and to go where they liked.

8004. If they could please themselves, do you think they might be able to buy cheaper?-Yes.

8005. If you were getting a large ready-money business, do you think you could sell cheaper than you do now?-I cannot say.

8006. But if a ready-money system were introduced you would try to do that?-Yes, I would and I think I would be able to do so, because the money is in hands and out of hands and there are no bad debts.

Brae, January 13, 1872, Rev. JAMES FRASER, examined.

8007. You have been a clergyman at Sullem for twenty-four years?-I have.

8008. You have an intimate acquaintance with the people who live about you, and, among others, with the fishermen?-Yes.

8009. You also know the system of payment and of credit purchases which exists in the district?-I do.

8010. Are you prepared to give any opinion as to the effect of that system upon the circumstances and character of the people?- Yes, I think the effect of it, to some extent, is not very good. It is rather an extensive subject to embrace within one answer, because there are a considerable number of people who are free and independent; they can make their own terms; but there are a great number of people who act on the credit system. That system has gone on, I daresay, from time immemorial, and it has become a great evil in the community, fraught with consequences of different descriptions that are evil.

8011. Are there many of the people whom you would describe as not being free to make their own bargains?-Of course there is hardly any person free to make his own bargain who has no ready money, and who is always in debt; and however well they may be dealt with by the fish-curers,-and I don't know of any case of wrong dealing in that respect-still the people are placed at a disadvantage. I believe the whole community are placed at a disadvantage in consequence of that, because, from the great amount of bad debts, the merchant must charge a higher percentage of profit upon his goods.

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8012. In saying that there is a great amount of bad debts, do you mean that there is a large proportion of debts in the merchants books which are never paid?-That is what I mean.

8013. Do you not mean that some of them are only very long delayed, and are liquidated only when a good fishing season comes?-Both statements are true. There are some of them which are very long delayed, and others which are delayed for ever, and never paid at all.

8014. You think that both these causes oblige the merchants to charge a higher price for goods than they otherwise would do?- Decidedly; but there is a greater evil than that still. Sometime in the course of Providence, an accident occurs, and families are left destitute, and the merchant has the disagreeable alternative of either losing his own debt, or putting the law in force and driving the families to extremity. That, however, is never done; but in such a case there might be an appeal to public benevolence in order to save human life, and that appeal is always responded to.

8015. What is the peculiarity in that case which you wish to point out?-The peculiarity in that case is, that I should wish the people to be placed in such circumstances that an appeal of that kind would not need to be made.

8016. Do you think such an appeal would be unnecessary if the credit system did not exist?-It would be unnecessary to a certain extent; but, at the same time, I can hardly see how to get rid of the credit system. I believe the merchants themselves feel it to be a much more trying thing, or at least fully as trying a thing, as I do. I look at it from one point of view, and they suffer from it from another.

8017. Is it within your own knowledge that a large portion of the people here are in a state of permanent indebtedness to the merchants?-I don't know to what extent they may be in a state of permanent indebtedness. I believe that a great number of them are very seldom clear, but of course there is a large proportion of the community who are clear from year to year.

8018. Do you mean that there is a large proportion of the men who are clear once in a year?-There are a great number who are always clear. There are number of the people who have never been in debt, and I believe never will be.

8019. But you are speaking of those who are in debt: what may be the proportion who are in that position?-I could not give an accurate answer as to the extent to which a state of permanent indebtedness prevails; but I know that it prevails to a much larger extent than is good for the community.

8020. Do you think it prevails to a larger extent here than in other districts of the country?-I don't think so.

8021. I meant than in other parts of Scotland, not of Shetland?-I am not very well acquainted with the extent to which a credit system prevails in Scotland.

8022. But you think it prevails to such an extent here as to be injurious to the independence of the people?-I think so; at least to the independence of some of the people.

8023. Do you think it tends to injure their truthfulness?-I don't know to what extent it will do that; but I think that, to some extent, when a man gets into arrears beyond what he is able to meet, he is apt to lose heart, and to come short of what he might otherwise do to clear himself.

8024. Have you known cases of that description?-I don't know to what extent cases of that description may prevail, but I know that there are a good many people who are living this year on their next year's earnings, and perhaps on the earnings of a year or two in advance of that.

8025. These are cases within your own knowledge, in which you have derived your information from the parties you speak of?- Yes.

8026. They have admitted it to you?-Yes, in one way or another. I have gained some of my knowledge from the merchants themselves, and some from the people.

8027. I suppose that sometimes, in the course of your ministrations, you have occasion to inquire a little into the circumstances of the men?-Yes, sometimes.

8028. In a letter which you wrote in reply to circular received from me, you gave an opinion about some proposed method of improvement which had for its object a separation between fishing and farming?-I have heard such a thing proposed. It has been discussed in the public press.

8029. Do you think the fishing could be carried on here apart from farming?-I do not. I think the fishermen could not live without their farms.

8030. Are they in a different position from the fishermen on the east coast of Scotland, in Aberdeenshire or Banffshire, who have no farms, and who live very comfortably, as I understand, by fishing alone?-I think they are in a very different position from these fishermen. One reason for that is, that there are frequent seasons occurring when there are no fish on the Shetland coast. Another reason is, that Shetland is very far from the market; and even although fish could be got, they could not be brought to market at a season when an adequate return could be got for them.

8031. But the curing might proceed in winter as it does in summer?-It might, but the fishermen would not be able, as a rule to keep themselves alive in winter by fishing alone.

8032. Do you mean that they would be much more interrupted by the weather in winter than in summer?-They would be much more interrupted by the weather, and they would have less chance of fish.

8033. Are you aware whether winter fishing has been tried in Shetland on a large scale?-Yes; not on a large scale, but it has been tried pretty extensively. I know that from my own experience. I tried it myself from the time when I could handle a boat oar, until I was twenty-seven years of age. During that time I was at the fishing every day, summer and winter, when it was fishing weather, and living in the midst of the ocean; and I have no hesitation in saying that if fishermen had been dependent on fishing alone, they would have died from sheer want, leaving their families out of the question altogether.

8034. But at that time were there any appliances for sending out large boats such as are now sent out in summer, and for curing the fish when brought home?-Yes, there were appliances for curing the fish when brought home; and little boats are much more handy about the Shetland coast than large boats at that season of the year.

8035. Do you think, as regards the hosiery trade, that it would be expedient for cash to be paid instead of goods as at present?- Sometimes it would be a convenience to the people to get cash, but generally speaking, I believe it would make very little difference. For instance, if a woman goes into a merchant's shop with so much hosiery, and she wants so much goods which the merchant can supply, she may just as well get them from him as from anybody else.

8036. But supposing the woman did not want goods?-Supposing she wants money, it would certainly be more convenient for her to get the money.

8037. Is it the case, so far as you know, that the people are often in want of money, and cannot get it?-I have not been aware of any particular case in which a little money was wanted and could not be got; but, as a general rule, money has never been paid for hosiery in Shetland.

8038. Are you of opinion that cases of hardship are not likely to occur in consequence of the want of money?-I could not give a positive answer to that question. I have heard the women complain more of there being two prices than of any difficulty in getting money.

8039. The two prices you refer to are the cash price and the price in goods?-Yes.

8040. What is their complaint with regard to that?-They think hosiery is sold at a disadvantage, when goods are so much dearer because bought with hosiery. That is the principal cause of complaint that I have heard of.

8041. Is it understood that the goods are dearer, because they are bought with hosiery?-That is generally [Page 196] understood; at least in some places. There are some merchants who make it all one price together; the same when hosiery is paid for the goods as when they are paid for in cash.

8042. Is that not the case with all?-It is not universally the case,

8043. Therefore there are not only two prices for hosiery, but there are two prices for goods bought with hosiery?-Yes; in some places there are.

8044. Are you aware of that from your, own knowledge, or is it merely from a complaint among the women?-It is a complaint among the women, and I think there is justice in it.

8045. That is, if it exists?-Yes; and I think it does exist in some places.

8046. Are you aware from your own knowledge that it does exist?-I think I am pretty certain of it.

8047. Do you think a system of credit payments and of paying for hosiery by goods has the effect of raising the prices of goods upon the whole community?-I don't think the hosiery has any effect of that description at all, so far as I know, but I think the credit system must have that effect in a greater or less degree. Under that system I think the credit which is most hopelessly given is in meal. The fish-curer often finds himself in the greatest difficulty with a family who are perhaps in want, and have no means to purchase meal. In that case he is frequently obliged, out of compassion, to give out meal for which he hardly expects to receive anything; or if he does, it is a long time before it comes.

8048. In such a case is the fisherman not under a sort of obligation to fish for that merchant during the next year, and until his debt is liquidated?-I think he is under such an obligation, but in some cases it takes a long fishing before the debt is liquidated.

8049. Do you think it is wholesome for a man to be under such a permanent obligation to fish for the same party?-I don't think it is wholesome for either party. But there is no help for it.

8050. Does that produce a spirit of submission and dependence on the part of the fishermen towards the merchant?-I don't know, but to some extent it must.

8051. Have you known any case in which that became very evident?-I cannot say. I could not name any particular case.

8052. You have not been struck by that in the course of your experience?-No. I have a considerable amount of acquaintance both here and in the north part of the islands of Shetland, and I cannot say that I have been struck with any such spirit of dependence. In the nature of things, however, it must exist more or less. But, in my opinion, the better way to get rid of it would be for the people to grow their own meal, and require less of it to be supplied to them.

8053. Do you mean that it would be an advantage if they required to purchase less meal than they do now?-Yes. I cannot see how the system can be got rid of, unless the people are able to cultivate their land, and grow their own meal.

8054. Therefore you are inclined to recommend a system of agricultural improvement as the best thing for Shetland?-Yes.

8055. Could that be effected without a separation between the fishing and the farming?-I think so. I think if people were placed in such security that they knew they were working for themselves, so that they could spend every day or every hour that they had leisure in improving their small crofts of land, they might grow half as much again as they do at present.

8056. Even upon their small holdings?-Yes; upon the greater number of their small holdings.

8057. And with spade labour?-Yes, with the spade, and the pick and shovel, such as the men can manage for themselves.

8058. Is not that a very antiquated way of cultivating the ground?-It may be antiquated, but I don't think there is any better way coming into operation.

8059. Is there not ploughing?-Ploughing won't because, if the ground of which these small crofts is composed is not broken up with the pick, it is of very little consequence to plough it. I could show examples of that in different parts of Shetland. Land ploughed is not half the value of land trenched, and the fisherman might trench a bit of land during winter for himself, and in the course of a few years grow all that he required, or the next thing to it, without costing the proprietor or anybody else anything.

8060. Would he grow a much heavier crop on land cultivated in that way with the spade, than a large farmer would if he ploughed his fields?-Yes, a much larger crop than a large farmer would if he ploughed that same field. I have not the slightest doubt of that.

8061. Are you speaking now from your own observation of both systems in Shetland?-I am.

8062. Do you know cases where an intelligent and active small crofter, cultivating in the way you have described with the spade, has grown heavier crops than a farmer, equally active and equally intelligent, has grown with plough cultivation?-Yes, upon the same kind of ground.

8063. Was that in this neighbourhood?-Yes.

8064. And the circumstances in both cases being exactly the same, except the difference between spade and plough cultivation?-I think the difference in that case would certainly be in favour of the larger cultivator; because I think the agricultural intelligence should be in favour of a man who works with the plough.

8065. You think the intelligence was perhaps superior in that case?-I think it was superior, and the crop inferior.

8066. Is that a thing which you have frequently observed?-Not very frequently, because land is not very frequently cultivated in the way I have mentioned, as the parties cultivating it, or who should cultivate it, don't have any security. They don't know who they are working for. There is a man pretty near me (Mr Gifford knows him), who has been cultivating in the way I have mentioned, and there is another man pretty near here who is cultivating in the way that you speak of, and there is no comparison whatever between the crops.

8067. Then is the remedy you suggest, a system of lease-holding?-Yes.

8068. Is there any reason why that does not exist in Shetland already?-I don't know any particular reason for it.

8069. Have the tenants in many places not been offered leases?-In some cases they have been offered leases, and I believe they have refused them, but I don't know for what reason.

8070. Have you any observation to make upon the subject of fixing the price of the fishermen's catch at the end of the season?-I have no observation to make on that subject, for I am not able to see how far it would be to the advantage of the fisherman to fix the price beforehand. I don't think it would be an advantage to him; indeed, I think the fisherman would be greater loser by a fixed price than he is just now.

8071. Is that because he would still have to obtain his supplies on credit?-Not so much that; but for one thing, the merchant's or fish-curer's knowledge of what the market is likely to be, is ahead of that of the fisherman; and I think it holds good more or less, by common sense, that the merchant should try to secure safety for himself in the bargain which he makes. The probability therefore is, that the fisherman would suffer more in that case than he does at present.

8072. You think the merchant has better means of foreseeing the course of the markets than the fishermen?-I think so; and although I believe the merchants hereabouts would generally give the men all the advantage they could, I cannot see how it would be possible that by fixing the price beforehand the fisherman would be the gainer.

8073. Is there any reason to suppose that the fishermen have not a sufficient voice in fixing what the current price is to be at the end of the season?-I don't think the fishermen have any voice in that at all, and I don't know how far the merchant or fish-curer [Page 197] has either. It must be regulated by the south-country markets.

8074. Would it be any advantage to the fishermen in your neighbourhood to have periodical payments up to a certain amount of their catch, leaving the balance to be fixed, and the price also, or a portion of it to be fixed at the end of the season?-I don't think that would be any advantage, and there is one disadvantage which would certainly follow such a system. There are some men who will take care of their money, pay it to them when you like; but those who take least care of it would spend it as they got it, and the merchants having paid ready money to them, there would be nobody who would advance anything to them when they wished to pay their land-rent or other debts.

8075. Are these careless men not equally apt, under the present system, to take too much in goods, and to exhaust their earnings too early?-Perhaps they are, but there is some check upon them under the present system, whereas if they got the money in their own hands there would be none.

8076. What is the check upon them?-The merchant himself will be a check, if a man is running an account which he is not likely to meet. I am not able to say how far the system you have suggested would be an advantage to the people. It might be an advantage, but I cannot see it.*

* The following letter was afterwards addressed to the Commissioner by Mr. Fraser:- SULLAM, 18<th January> 1872. W. GUTHRIE, Esq. SIR,-You will perhaps allow me to supplement the evidence gave at Brae the other day by a few notes. I did not bring out all I wished to say on the credit system. It would require more time than could than be allowed to one witness, and more writing than I would like to trouble you with now, to explain it fully.

Credit has become almost a necessity in Shetland in the present condition of the islands and it has gone on so long that the moral ton of society has suffered in consequence of it. The present fish-curers and merchants have not created the system; it existed before them, and they have taken it up as a necessary evil.

Shetland fisherman may be divided into three classes. The first class are free men. They have never been in debt, and hope never to be. The second class, under the present circumstances, come in debt, but they don't like it, and get out of it as soon as they can. The third class do not seem to have any particular dislike to it. When the Commissioner asked me at Brae if I had known men lose their independence by coming in debt, or something like that, I had this class in my mind, and I was puzzled what to say. I think the loss must have been sustained long, long ago, for they have always appeared to me as a party who never had anything of the sort to lose.

The moral evils of the system to this class need not be mentioned. I will name one or two of its physical effects.

1. It largely increases pauperism, by raising a false standard by which to regulate one's expenditure. When one of this class falls from earning, he is fit only for the Parochial Board.

2. In case of a boat accident, or in a season like 1869, the prospect is most appalling. In that year the crop was very largely a failure; many of the people had gone as deep in debt as they could go; and but for the aid sent by the Society of Friends, some of the people would assuredly have died, and a still larger number could not have sown their ground. The timely aid sent by the Friends and those whom they enlisted with them in their benevolent work, prevented both these consequences.

There are not a few families in Shetland-bereaved families, I mean-supported by funds supplied by the benevolence of south country ladies and gentlemen, who otherwise must have starved, or fall with a crushing weight upon the Parochial Boards.

Now, for all this, so far as I know, there is only one remedy- the improvement of the soil. The people are cultivating just the same ground their <great-grandfathers> did, and most of the ground now cultivated has never rested in the memory of living man, or perhaps as long before. New earth is made to supply the yearly waste, and thus the ground in the neighbourhood of a few small farms is so robbed as to be rendered useless for generations, unless it happens to have earth enough to allow of laying down the surface, and a proprietor or factor who binds the people to do it.

There is, in general, plenty of unreclaimed land lying close by these small farms which might be broken up and brought under crop, and some of the old allowed to rest. In some places there are plenty of stones to hedge in a small croft of land where grass might be sown, but nothing is done. That unreclaimed land is made to do duty by keeping life in a few cows-two, or more. During the summer season, the merchant supplies the meal as long as he can, and so things continue its they are. No man who may receive a forty days', or even a six months', warning, is likely to exert himself to bring more ground under crop. The thing wanted is leasehold of the property by the tenant. But I am told the tenants will not take a lease. It may be so; but before the statement be admitted as true, the sort of lease offered them would require to be seen. There are leases offered which no man of common sense would take. There is property in Shetland, and plenty of it, that in a 19 years lease could be made 50 per cent. better than it is, and be a better bargain then, than now. And all this might be done without costing the proprietor one shilling. Let him give it lease on reasonable terms.

There is just one thing more I would like to state. I am referring to the evidence given last year before the Commissioner in Edinburgh, it was then stated by Mr. Walker, that the hills were doing the people no good, and therefore he had taken them from them. The latter part of this statement is true, but on the former part of it I would beg to say, the native sheep reared on these hills supply material for knitting, and the female part of the population are clad almost entirely from that source alone. Then the female members of the house generally provide during the winter months warm underclothing for the fisherman, without which he could not pursue his hazardous occupation. Bedclothes are also largely supplied from the same source. Leave all these to be supplied by the fisherman from his scanty earnings, and it requires no prophet to foretell the result.

To say that the hills were doing the people no good, either manifests great ignorance of the subject, or something worse.-I am, Sir, your most obedient servant, James Fraser.

Brae, January 13, 1872, THOMAS GIFFORD, examined,

8077. You are the factor on the estate of Busta?-I am.

8078. I believe that is the largest estate in Shetland?-I believe it is.

8079. What is the rental?-£2700.

8080. Are there any leases on the estate?-Yes, there are a good many.

8081. Are these of the small holdings or of the large holdings only?-There are leases of both.

8082. Do the majority of the fishermen tenants have leases?-Not the majority.

8083. Or a considerable number?-I could hardly say there are a considerable number; only a small number, I think.

8084. I understand that the tenants on the Busta estate are entirely free to fish for any person with whom they may choose to engage?-Yes; and a great many of them go south and follow different employments,

8085. How many large mercantile establishments or shops are there on the Busta property which are held by fish-curers?-Four. There is one at Voe, one at Brae, one at Hillswick, and one at Lochend (Mr. Laurenson's).

8086. I presume these are all the large establishments of that kind in the district of Delting and Northmaven, except the shop at Mossbank?-No; Messrs. Hay & Company have one at North Roe, at the very farthest extremity of Northmaven, and then there are fishing stations at Stenness and Feideland.

8087. But at these stations the fishermen are all employed by one or other of the merchants whose places of business you have enumerated?-Yes.

8088. And all these merchants hold their shops under the Busta trustees?-Yes.

8089. Have they all leases?-Yes.

8090. Can you tell me from recollection what the rents of these shops are?-The shops are not separately rented; they are let along with farms in every case.

8091. The merchants are not tacksmen of any tenants, but they have farms?-Yes; merely their own farms.

8092. Is there any prohibition to sub-let on these farms?-Yes; in every case.

8093. What are the rents of these four parties?-£327 for the four.

8094. In the district from Busta extending to the march of the Gossaburgh property at North Roe, is the greater part of the land under your management?-Yes.

8095. The greater part of it belongs to the Busta estate?-Yes; three-fourths of it perhaps.

8096. Is there any understanding with the four merchants you have mentioned, that no other shops than theirs shall be opened upon your property?-No, a shop can be opened at any place.

8097. Have you objected in any case to the opening of shops, lest it should interfere with the business of these lessees?-I have not. There are several shops that have been opened lately.

8098. Were these small shops?-Yes; there was one you passed at the head of the voe going to Hillswick.

[Page 198]

8099. Is that Arthur Harrison's?-Yes; and there is one opposite it again, on the Roenessvoe side.

8100. Is there any apprehension on the part of the Busta trustees lest the rent paid by the larger establishments should be reduced by the opening of smaller shops?-None.

8101. Is it not the case that some difficulty was put in the way of Harrison opening his shop?-I believe something was said about it, but there was no reality in it.

8102. There was an objection made to it at first, was there not?- Yes; I believe there was some objection made, but there is nothing in the lease that could prevent it in any way.

8103. Nothing in what lease?-Nothing in Mr. Anderson's lease binding us to refuse, and nothing in any lease on the Busta property.

8104. Is there not an obligation in some of the leases of the tenants that no shops are to be opened on their holdings?-They are not allowed to open shops unless they ask permission. That is only to be done with the consent of the trustees.

8105. You say that Harrison was refused permission at first, but that shortly afterwards he was granted permission to open his shop?-I did not refuse him permission at first. Some other parties objected to him getting it, and said that no shops could be opened within a certain distance of Hillswick.

8106. Was it Mr. Anderson who objected?-Yes, I believe he did object.

8107. Was that by letter, or personally?-I don't think he objected to me by letter. He may have mentioned it to the trustees, or their agent, but his lease had been got some considerable time before Harrison thought of opening the shop, so that he knew he could not stop it.

8108. But he did object notwithstanding?-Yes; I think he objected at first when he was taking his lease. I think he wished it to be put in that way.

8109. The hesitation which existed about giving Harrison the lease, or the delay in agreeing to give him his lease, was due, I suppose, to Mr. Anderson's objection?-Harrison has got a lease.

8110. He has got it now, but it was refused, or at least delayed, when he first applied for it, was it not?-No; Harrison was only permitted to sell lately, but he had his lease before.

8111. But was not the permission to sell refused at first in consequence of Mr. Anderson objecting to it?-There was something said about it, but it was not practically refused.

8112. Had you had any communication with Mr. Adie before finally giving Harrison permission to sell?-None whatever.

8113. Neither verbally nor by letter?-Neither verbally nor by letter.

8114. Did you understand that Harrison was going to cure fish for Mr. Adie?-Yes; I understood he was going to cure fish for Mr. Adie, or any other body he could get them to cure for.

8115. And he informed you that he had made a contract with Mr. Adie for curing fish at the time when you granted the permission?-I think he went from Busta to Lerwick, and spoke to Mr. Harrison and some other fish-curers, and I believe he expected to get some from Mr. Harrison, and some from Mr. Adie; but so far as I am aware, he has only got them from Mr. Adie. But he was quite open to take them from any party he could make the best bargain with.

8116. Had you any letter from Mr. Anderson objecting to Harrison opening a shop?-No, so far as I am aware.

8117. You think he only wrote to some of the other trustees?-I am not aware that he has written a letter about it since he got his lease. I think he objected to it about the time he took his lease.

8118. But not at the time when Harrison was wanting to sell?- No; I think at the time when Mr. Anderson took his lease he wished it mentioned that no other party should be allowed to sell within four miles of him, but that was not entered in the lease.

8119. Then do you mean that no objection was made by Mr. Anderson to Harrison being allowed to sell goods at the time when he (Harrison) was applying for that permission?-There is no doubt Mr. Anderson may have objected to him, or to any other party, doing so, but he could not do it in any way so as to affect Harrison.

8120. Was that because the power of granting or refusing permission lay entirely with you?-I suppose so.

8121. But, in point of fact, did Mr. Anderson make no objection to you or to any of the Busta trustees, so far as you know, to Harrison being allowed to sell?-I am not aware whether he made any application to the trustees, or their agent. I know that he mentioned the matter more than once but that is all I know.

8122. He said that he thought Harrison should not get permission?-Yes; that is all he did. I am not aware that he wrote to the trustees on the subject after he got his lease.