Chapter XVI: Front Matter (16)

That is the reason I went down there to take the Polaroid picture of it, because of that remaining in the city at the time.

What happened to the picture, I don't know. I asked Jim Bowie or Alexander to tell you.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know Weissman before that?

Mr. RUBY. Never knew him. When I said Jim Bowie, no one says a word.

Mr. BOWIE. We never have seen them.

Mr. RUBY. They were in my person.

Mr. BOWIE. But no evidence came?

Mr. RUBY. No; it did not, never. As a matter of fact, I went to the post office to check on box 1792. I even inquired with the man in charge of where you purchase the boxes, and I said to him, "Who bought this box?"

And he said, "I can't give you the information. All I know is, it is a legitimate business box purchase."

And I checked the various contents of mail there.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know Officer Tippit?

Mr. RUBY. I knew there was three Tippits on the force. The only one I knew used to work for the special services, and I am certain this wasn't the Tippit, this wasn't the man.

Mr. RANKIN. The man that was murdered. There was a story that you were seen sitting in your Carousel Club with Mr. Weissman, Officer Tippit, and another who has been called a rich oil man, at one time shortly before the assassination. Can you tell us anything about that?

Mr. RUBY. Who was the rich oil man?

Mr. RANKIN. Can you remember? We haven't been told. We are just trying to find out anything that you know about him.

Mr. RUBY. I am the one that made such a big issue of Bernard Weissman's ad. Maybe you do things to cover up, if you are capable of doing it.

As a matter of fact, Saturday afternoon we went over to the Turf Bar lounge, and it was a whole hullabaloo, and I showed the pictures "Impeach Earl Warren" to Bellocchio, and he saw the pictures and got very emotional.

And Bellocchio said, "Why did the newspaper take this ad of Weissman?"

And Bellocchio said, "I have got to leave Dallas."

And suddenly after making that statement, I realized it is his incapability, and suddenly you do things impulsively, and suddenly you realize if you love the city, you stay here and you make the best of it. And there were witnesses.

I said, "The city was good enough for you all before this. Now you feel that way about it." And that was Bellocchio.

As far as Tippit, it is not Tippitts, it is not Tippitts it is Tippit.

Mr. RANKIN. This Weissman and the rich oil man, did you ever have a conversation with them?

Mr. RUBY. There was only a few. Bill Rudman from the YMCA, and I haven't seen him in years.

And there is a Bill Howard, but he is not a rich oil man. He owns the Stork Club now. He used to dabble in oil.

Chief Justice WARREN. This story was given by a lawyer by the name of Mark Lane, who is representing Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald, and it was in the paper, so we subpenaed him, and he testified that someone had given him information to the effect that a week or two before President Kennedy was assassinated, that in your Carousel Club you and Weissman and Tippit, Officer Tippit, the one who was killed, and a rich oil man had an interview or conversation for an hour or two.

And we asked him who it was that told him, and he said that it was confidential and he couldn't tell at the moment, but that he would find out for us if whether he could be released or not from his confidential relationship.

He has never done it, and we have written him several letters asking him to disclose the name of that person, and he has never complied.

Mr. RUBY. Isn't that foolish? If a man is patriotic enough in the first place, who am I to be concerned if he wasn't an informer.

I am incarcerated, nothing to be worried about anyone hurting me.

Chief Justice WARREN. Mr. Ruby, I am not questioning your story at all. I wanted you to know the background of this thing, and to know that it was with us only hearsay. But I did feel that our record should show that we would ask you the question and that you would answer it, and you have answered it.

Mr. RUBY. How many days prior to the assassination was that?

Chief Justice WARREN. My recollection is that it was a week or two. Is that correct?

Mr. RUBY. Did anyone have any knowledge that their beloved President was going to visit here prior to that time, or what is the definite time that they knew he was coming to Dallas?

Chief Justice WARREN. Well, I don't know just what those dates are.

Mr. RUBY. I see.

Chief Justice WARREN. I just don't know. Well, we wanted to ask you that question, because this man had so testified, and we have been trying ever since to get him to give the source of his information, but he will not do it, so we will leave that matter as it is.

Mr. RUBY. No; I am as innocent regarding any conspiracy as any of you gentlemen in the room, and I don't want anything to be run over lightly. I want you to dig into it with any biting, any question that might embarrass me, or anything that might bring up my background, which isn't so terribly spotted--I have never been a criminal--I have never been in jail--I know when you live in the city of Chicago and you are in the livelihood of selling tickets to sporting events, your lucrative patrons are some of these people, but you don't mean anything to those people. You may know them as you get acquainted with them at the sporting events or the ball park.

Chief Justice WARREN. The prizefights?

Mr. RUBY. The prizefights. If that was your means of livelihood, yet you don't have no other affiliation with them, so when I say I know them, or what I have read from stories of personalities that are notorious, that is the extent of my involvement in any criminal activity.

I have never been a bookmaker. I have never stolen for a living. I am not a gangster. I have never used a goon squad for union activities.

All I was was a representative to sound out applications for the American Federation of Labor, and if the employees would sign it, we would accept them as members.

I never knew what a goon looked like in Chicago, with the exception when I went to the service.

I never belonged to any subversive organization. I don't know any subversive people that are against my beloved country.

Mr. RANKIN. You have never been connected with the Communist Party?

Mr. RUBY. Never have. All I have ever done in my life--I had a very rough start in life, but anything I have done, I at least try to do it in good taste, whatever I have been active in.

Mr. RANKIN. There was a story that you had a gun with you during the showup that you described in the large room there.

Mr. RUBY. I will be honest with you. I lied about it. It isn't so. I didn't have a gun. But in order to make my defense more accurate, to save your life, that is the reason that statement was made.

Mr. RANKIN. It would be quite helpful to the Commission if you could--in the first place, I want to get the trip to Cuba. Was that in 1959?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; because I had to buy a $2 ticket, a pass to get through Florida.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any other trip to Cuba?

Mr. RUBY. Never; that is the only one that I made.

I stayed at the Volk's Apartments with Mr. McWillie, lived in his apartment. Ate directly in a place called Wolf's, downstairs. Wouldn't know how to speak their language. I wouldn't know how to communicate with them.

I probably had two dates from meeting some young ladies I got to dancing with, because my dinners were served in the Tropicana.

One thing I forgot to tell you--you are bringing my mind back to a few things--the owners, the greatest that have been expelled from Cuba, are the Fox brothers. They own the Tropicana.

Mr. RANKIN. Who are the Fox brothers?

Mr. RUBY. Martin Fox and I can't think of the other name.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know where they are located now?

Mr. RUBY. They are in Miami, Fla. They know everything about McWillie, I heard; and know the officials.

I met McWillie because he came to the club, and he came to the club to look over the show. And you get to talk to people and meet a lot of different types of people.

The Fox brothers came to Dallas--I don't know which one it was--to collect a debt that some man owed the Cotton Gin Co. here.

Do you know their name, Mr. Bowie?

Mr. BOWIE. Murray, or something.

Mr. RUBY. He gave some bad checks on a gambling debt, and they came to visit me. The lawyer, I think, is Mark Lane. That is the attorney that was killed in New York?

Chief Justice WARREN. That is the fellow who represents, or did represent Mrs. Marguerite Oswald. I think I read in the paper where he no longer represents her.

Mr. RANKIN. He is still alive though.

Chief Justice WARREN. Oh, yes.

Mr. RUBY. There was one Lane that was killed in a taxicab. I thought he was an attorney in Dallas.

Chief Justice WARREN. That was a Dave Lane.

Mr. RUBY. There is a very prominent attorney in Dallas, McCord. McCord represents the Fox brothers here. They called me because the Fox brothers wanted to see me, and I came down to the hotel.

And Mrs. McWillie--Mr. McWillie was married to her at that time--and if I recall, I didn't show them off to the airport at that time.

This is when they were still living in Havana, the Fox brothers. We had dinner at--how do you pronounce that restaurant at Love Field? Luau? That serves this Chinese food.

Dave McCord, I was in his presence, and I was invited out to dinner, and there was an attorney by the name of Leon. Is he associated with McCord?

And there was a McClain.

Chief Justice WARREN. Alfred was killed in a taxi in New York.

Mr. RUBY. He was at this dinner meeting I had with McCord. I don't know if Mrs. McWillie was along. And one of the Fox brothers, because they had just been awarded the case that this person owns, this Gin Co., that was compelled to pay off.

Mr. RANKIN. I think, Mr. Ruby, it would be quite helpful to the Commission if you could tell, as you recall it, just what you said to Mr. Sorrels and the others after the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald. Can you recall that?

Mr. RUBY. The only one I recall Mr. Sorrels in, there were some incorrect statements made at this time.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what you said?

Congressman FORD. First, tell us when this took place.

Mr. RANKIN. How soon after the shooting occurred?

Mr. RUBY. Well, Ray Hall was the first one that interrogated me. Wanted to know my whole background.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us how soon it was? Within a few minutes after the shooting?

Mr. RUBY. No; I waited in a little room there somewhere upstairs in--I don't know what floor it was. I don't recall.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did this occur, on the third floor?

Mr. RUBY. One of those floors. I don't know whether it was the third or second. If you are up on an elevator----

Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us any idea of the time after the shooting?

Mr. RUBY. I spent an hour with Mr. Hall, Ray Hall. And I was very much, I was very much broken up emotionally, and I constantly repeated that I didn't want Mrs. Kennedy to come back to trial, and those were my words, constantly repeated to Mr. Hall.

And I heard there was a statement made--now I am skipping--and then I gave Mr. Hall my complete background about things he wanted to know, my earlier background going back from the years, and I guess there was nothing else to say to Hall because as long as I stated why I did it--it is not like planning a crime and you are confessing something. I already confessed, and all it took is one sentence why I did it.

Now what else could I have said that you think I could have said? Refresh my memory a little bit.

Mr. RANKIN. There was a conversation with Mr. Sorrels in which you told him about the matter. Do you remember that?

Mr. RUBY. The only thing I ever recall I said to Mr. Ray Hall and Sorrels was, I said, "Being of Jewish faith, I wanted to show my love for my President and his lovely wife."

After I said whatever I said, then a statement came out that someone introduced Mr. Sorrels to me and I said, "What are you, a newsman?" Or something to that effect. Which is really--what I am trying to say is, the way it sounded is like I was looking for publicity and inquiring if you are a newsman, I wanted to see you.

But I am certain--I don't recall definitely, but I know in my right mind, because I know my motive for doing it, and certainly to gain publicity to take a chance of being mortally wounded, as I said before, and who else could have timed it so perfectly by seconds.

If it were timed that way, then someone in the police department is guilty of giving the information as to when Lee Harvey Oswald was coming down.

I never made a statement. I never inquired from the television man what time is Lee Harvey Oswald coming down. Because really, a man in his right mind would never ask that question. I never made the statement "I wanted to get three more off. Someone had to do it. You wouldn't do it." I never made those statements.

I never called the man by any obscene name, because as I stated earlier, there was no malice in me. He was insignificant, to my feelings for my love for Mrs. Kennedy and our beloved President. He was nothing comparable to them, so I can't explain it.

I never used any words--as a matter of fact, there were questions at the hearing with Roy Pryor and a few others--I may have used one word "a little weasel" or something, but I didn't use it. I don't remember, because Roy said it. If he said I did, I may have said it.

I never made the statement to anyone that I intended to get him. I never used the obscene words that were stated.

Anything I said was with emotional feeling of I didn't want Mrs. Kennedy to come back to trial.

Representative FORD. It has been alleged that you went out to Parkland Hospital.

Mr. RUBY. No; I didn't go there. They tried to ask me. My sisters asked me. Some people told my sister that you were there. I am of sound mind. I never went there. Everything that transpired during the tragedy, I was at the Morning News Building.

Congressman FORD. You didn't go out there subsequent to the assassination?

Mr. RUBY. No; in other words, like somebody is trying to make me something of a martyr in that case. No; I never did.

Does this conflict with my story and yours in great length?

Mr. MOORE. Substantially the same, Jack, as well as I remember.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about people of your religion have guts, or something like that?

Mr. RUBY. I said it. I never said it up there. I said, I could have said, "Weren't you afraid of getting your head blown off?" I said, "Well, to be truthful, I have a little nerve." I could have said that.

Now I could have said to the doctor that was sent to me, Bromberg, because there is a certain familiarity you have, because it is like you have an attorney representing you, it is there. I mean, it is there.

But I did say this. McWillie made a statement about me, something to the effect that "he is considered a pretty rough guy," this McWillie. He said, "One thing about Jack Ruby, he runs this club and no one runs over him."

And you have a different type of entertainment here than any other part of the country, our type of entertainment.

But I don't recall that. I could have said the sentimental feeling that I may have used.

Representative FORD. When you flew to Cuba, where did you go from Dallas en route? What was the step-by-step process by which you arrived at Havana?

Mr. RUBY. I think I told Mr. Moore I stopped in New Orleans. Sometime I stopped in New Orleans, and I don't remember if I stopped in Florida or New Orleans, but I know I did stop in New Orleans, because I bought some Carioca rum coming back.

I know I was to Miami on a stopover. It could have been on the way back. I only went to Cuba once, so naturally, when I bought the Carioca rum, there was a couple of fellows that sell tickets for Delta Airlines, and they know me like I know you, and I am sure you gentlemen have spoken to them, and they were to tell me where to go in Havana, and have a ball, and I told them why I was going there, and who I was going to look up, and everything else.

Representative FORD. They were Delta Airlines employees in New Orleans or Dallas?

Mr. RUBY. No; in New Orleans. Evidently I went out to the Delta Airlines at Love Field and caught the plane. I may have taken the flight--here is what could have happened. I could have made a double stop from Havana on the way back in taking in Miami, and then taking another plane to New Orleans, I am not certain.

But I only made one trip to Havana. Yet I know I was in Miami, Fla. and I was in New Orleans.

And the next time I went to New Orleans, when I tried to look up some showgirl by the name of Jada, I stopped in to see the same fellows at Delta Airlines.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall going up the elevator after the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. RUBY. That is so small to remember, I guess it is automatic, you know.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have this gun a long while that you did the shooting with?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. You didn't carry it all the time?

Mr. RUBY. I did. I had it in a little bag with money constantly. I carry my money.

Chief Justice WARREN. Congressman, do you have anything further?

Mr. RUBY. You can get more out of me. Let's not break up too soon.

Representative FORD. When you got to Havana, who met you in Havana?

Mr. RUBY. McWillie. Now here is what happened. One of the Fox brothers came to visit me in Dallas with his wife. They came to the Vegas Club with Mrs. McWillie, and we had taken some pictures. 8 x 10's.

Evidently the Foxes were in exile at that time, because when I went to visit McWillie, when he sent me the plane tickets, they looked through my luggage and they saw a photograph of Mr. Fox and his wife. They didn't interrogate, but they went through everything and held me up for hours.

Representative FORD. Castro employees?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; because evidently, in my ignorance, I didn't realize I was bringing a picture that they knew was a bitter enemy. At that time they knew that the Fox brothers weren't going to jail, or something was going to happen.

Whether it was they were in exile at that time. I don't know.

But they came to my club, the Vegas Club, and we had taken pictures.

Mr. McWillie was waiting for me, and he saw me go through the customs line for a couple of hours, and he said, "Jack, they never did this to anyone before." Evidently, they had me pretty well lined up as to where I come in the picture of Mr. Rivera Fox. I can't think of his name.

Representative FORD. You spent 8 days there in Havana?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; approximately.

Representative FORD. And you stayed at the apartment of Mr.----

Mr. RUBY. Volk's Apartments. I never used the phone. I wouldn't know how to use the phone. Probably to call back to Dallas. And the only time, Mr. McWillie had to be at the club early, so I remained a little later in town--not often--because I saved money when I rode with him, because they charge you quite a bit. But I didn't want to get there too early, because to get there at 7 o'clock wasn't very lively.

Because I would always be with him for the complete evening.

We leave the place and stop somewhere to get coffee, a little dugout--I saw Ava Gardner down there at the time when I was there. She was visiting there.

Representative FORD. What prompted you to leave at the end of 8 days?

Mr. RUBY. I was bored because gambling isn't my profession, and when you have a business to run, and there weren't many tourists I could get acquainted with there.

I went to the Capri rooftop to go swimming, and went to the Nacional to go swimming once.

Representative FORD. Did you ever go to Mexico? Have you ever been to Mexico?

Mr. RUBY. The only time, 30 or 40 years ago, 1934.

Representative FORD. This trip to Cuba was the only time you left the country other than military service?

Mr. RUBY. Actually I didn't leave in the military. I was stationed three and a half years here in the States. Let's see, never out of the United States except at one time to Havana, Cuba.

Chief Justice WARREN. Now you said there were some other things. Would you mind telling us anything you have on your mind?

Mr. RUBY. No; because as I said earlier, you seem to have gotten the juicy part of the story up to now in the various spasmodic way of my telling it.

How valuable am I to you to give you all this information?

Chief Justice WARREN. Well, how valuable is rather an indefinite term, but I think it is very helpful to our Commission report. I think the report would have been deficient if it had not been for this interview we have had with you.

So we are interested in anything that you would like to tell us, in your own language.

Mr. RUBY. The only thing is this. If I cannot get these tests you give, it is pretty haphazard to tell you the things I should tell you.

Mr. Moore, you seem to have known more about my interrogation than anybody else, right?

Mr. MOORE. I think you have told us about everything you told me.

Mr. RANKIN. It isn't entirely clear how you feel that your family and you yourself are threatened by your telling what you have to the Commission.

How do you come to the conclusion that they might be killed? Will you tell us a little bit more about that, if you can?

Mr. RUBY. Well, assuming that, as I stated before, some persons are accusing me falsely of being part of the plot--naturally, in all the time from over 6 months ago, my family has been so interested in helping me.

Mr. RANKIN. By that, you mean a party to the plot of Oswald?

Mr. RUBY. That I was party to a plot to silence Oswald.

All right now, when your family believes you and knows your mannerisms and your thoughts, and knows your sincerity, they have lived with you all your life and know your emotional feelings and your patriotism--on the surface, they see me only as the guilty assailant of Oswald, and by helping me like they have, going all out.

My brother who has a successful business, I know he is going to be killed. And I haven't seen him in years. And suddenly he feels that he wants to help me, because he believes that I couldn't be any further involved than the actual----

When I told him I did it because of Mrs. Kennedy, that is all he had to hear, because I would never involve my family or involve him in a conspiracy.

Everyone haven't let me down. Because they read the newspapers away from Dallas that stated certain facts about me, but they are untrue, because they wouldn't come out and put those things in the newspapers that they should be putting in; and people outside of Dallas read the Dallas newspapers and are all in sympathy with me, as far as the country itself.

That they felt, well, Jack did it. They probably felt they would do the same thing.

That sympathy isn't going to help me, because the people that have the power here, they have a different verdict. They already have me as the accused assassin of our beloved President.

Now if I sound screwy telling you this, then I must be screwy.

Chief Justice WARREN. Mr. Ruby, I think you are entitled to a statement to this effect, because you have been frank with us and have told us your story.

I think I can say to you that there has been no witness before this Commission out of the hundreds we have questioned who has claimed to have any personal knowledge that you were a party to any conspiracy to kill our President.

Mr. RUBY. Yes; but you don't know this area here.

Chief Justice WARREN. No; I don't vouch for anything except that I think I am correct in that, am I not?

Mr. RANKIN. That is correct.

Chief Justice WARREN. I just wanted to tell you before our own Commission, and I might say to you also that we have explored the situation.

Mr. RUBY. I know, but I want to say this to you. If certain people have the means and want to gain something by propagandizing something to their own use, they will make ways to present certain things that I do look guilty.

Chief Justice WARREN. Well. I will make this additional statement to you, that if any witness should testify before the Commission that you were, to their knowledge, a party to any conspiracy to assassinate the President, I assure you that we will give you the opportunity to deny it and to take any tests that you may desire to so disprove it.

I don't anticipate that there will be any such testimony, but should there be, we will give you that opportunity.

Does that seem fair?

Mr. RUBY. No; that isn't going to save my family.

Chief Justice WARREN. Well, we can't do everything at once.

Mr. RUBY. I am in a tough spot, and I don't know what the solution can be to save me.

And I know our wonderful President, Lyndon Johnson, as soon as he was the President of his country, he appointed you as head of this group. But through certain falsehoods that have been said about me to other people, the John Birch Society, I am as good as guilty as the accused assassin of President Kennedy.

How can you remedy that, Mr. Warren? Do any of you men have any ways of remedying that?

Mr. Bill Decker said be a man and speak up. I am making a statement now that I may not live the next hour when I walk out of this room.

Now it is the most fantastic story you have ever heard in a lifetime. I did something out of the goodness of my heart. Unfortunately, Chief Earl Warren, had you been around 5 or 6 months ago, and I know your hands were tied, you couldn't do it, and immediately the President would have gotten ahold of my true story, or whatever would have been said about me, a certain organization wouldn't have so completely formed now, so powerfully, to use me because I am of the Jewish extraction, Jewish faith, to commit the most dastardly crime that has ever been committed.

Can you understand now in visualizing, what happened, what powers, what momentum has been carried on to create this feeling of mass feeling against my people, against certain people that were against them prior to their power?

That goes over your head, doesn't it?

Chief Justice WARREN. Well, I don't quite get the full significance of it, Mr. Ruby. I know what you feel about the John Birch Society.

Mr. RUBY. Very powerful.

Chief Justice WARREN. I think it is powerful, yes I do. Of course, I don't have all the information that you feel you have on that subject.

Mr. RUBY. Unfortunately, you don't have, because it is too late. And I wish that our beloved President, Lyndon Johnson, would have delved deeper into the situation, hear me, not to accept just circumstantial facts about my guilt or innocence, and would have questioned to find out the truth about me before he relinquished certain powers to these certain people.

Chief Justice WARREN. Well, I am afraid I don't know what power you believe he relinquished to them. I think that it is difficult to understand what you have to say.

Mr. RUBY. I want to say this to you. The Jewish people are being exterminated at this moment. Consequently, a whole new form of government is going to take over our country, and I know I won't live to see you another time.

Do I sound sort of screwy in telling you these things?

Chief Justice WARREN. No; I think that is what you believe, or you wouldn't tell it under your oath.

Mr. RUBY. But it is a very serious situation. I guess it is too late to stop it, isn't it?

All right, I want to ask you this. All you men have been chosen by the President for this committee, is that correct?

Chief Justice WARREN. Representative Ford and I are the only members of the Commission that are here.

Mr. Rankin of the Commission is employed as our chief counsel.

Mr. Rankin employed Mr. Specter and Mr. Ball as members of the staff.

You know who the other gentlemen here are.

You know that Mr. Moore is a member of the Secret Service, and he has been a liaison officer with our staff since the Commission was formed.

Representative FORD. Are there any questions that ought to be asked to help clarify the situation that you described?

Mr. RUBY. There is only one thing. If you don't take me back to Washington tonight to give me a chance to prove to the President that I am not guilty, then you will see the most tragic thing that will ever happen.

And if you don't have the power to take me back, I won't be around to be able to prove my innocence or guilt.

Now up to this moment, I have been talking with you for how long?

Chief Justice WARREN. I would say for the better part of 3 hours.

Mr. RUBY. All right, wouldn't it be ridiculous for me to speak sensibly all this time and give you this climactic talk that I have?

Maybe something can be saved, something can be done.

What have you got to answer to that, Chief Justice Warren?

Chief Justice WARREN. Well, I don't know what can be done. Mr. Ruby, because I don't know what you anticipate we will encounter.

Representative FORD. Is there anything more you can tell us if you went back to Washington?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; are you sincere in wanting to take me back?

Representative FORD. We are most interested in all the information you have.

Mr. RUBY. All I know is maybe something can be saved. Because right now, I want to tell you this, I am used as a scapegoat, and there is no greater weapon that you can use to create some falsehood about some of the Jewish faith, especially at the terrible heinous crime such as the killing of President Kennedy.

Now maybe something can be saved. It may not be too late, whatever happens, if our President, Lyndon Johnson, knew the truth from me.

But if I am eliminated, there won't be any way of knowing.

Right now, when I leave your presence now. I am the only one that can bring out the truth to our President, who believes in righteousness and justice.

But he has been told, I am certain, that I was part of a plot to assassinate the President.

I know your hands are tied; you are helpless.

Chief Justice WARREN. Mr. Ruby. I think I can say this to you, that if he has been told any such thing, there is no indication of any kind that he believes it.

Mr. RUBY. I am sorry. Chief Justice Warren. I thought I would be very effective in telling you what I have said here. But in all fairness to everyone, maybe all I want to do is beg that if they found out I was telling the truth, maybe they can succeed in what their motives are, but maybe my people won't be tortured and mutilated.

Chief Justice WARREN. Well, you may be sure that the President and his whole Commission will do anything that is necessary to see that your people are not tortured.

Mr. RUBY. No.

Chief Justice WARREN. You may be sure of that.

Mr. RUBY. No; the only way you can do it is if he knows the truth, that I am telling the truth, and why I was down in that basement Sunday morning, and maybe some sense of decency will come out and they can still fulfill their plan, as I stated before, without my people going through torture and mutilation.

Chief Justice WARREN. The President will know everything that you have said, everything that you have said.

Mr. RUBY. But I won't be around, Chief Justice. I won't be around to verify these things you are going to tell the President.

Mr. TONAHILL. Who do you think is going to eliminate you, Jack?

Mr. RUBY. I have been used for a purpose, and there will be a certain tragic occurrence happening if you don't take my testimony and somehow vindicate me so my people don't suffer because of what I have done.

Chief Justice WARREN. But we have taken your testimony. We have it here. It will be in permanent form for the President of the United States and for the Congress of the United States, and for the courts of the United States, and for the people of the entire world.

It is there. It will be recorded for all to see. That is the purpose of our coming here today. We feel that you are entitled to have your story told.

Mr. RUBY. You have lost me though. You have lost me, Chief Justice Warren.

Chief Justice WARREN. Lost you in what sense?

Mr. RUBY. I won't be around for you to come and question me again.

Chief Justice WARREN. Well, it is very hard for me to believe that. I am sure that everybody would want to protect you to the very limit.

Mr. RUBY. All I want is a lie detector test, and you refuse to give it to me.

Because as it stands now--and the truth serum, and any other--Pentothal--how do you pronounce it, whatever it is. And they will not give it to me, because I want to tell the truth.

And then I want to leave this world. But I don't want my people to be blamed for something that is untrue, that they claim has happened.

Chief Justice WARREN. Mr. Ruby, I promise you that you will be able to take such a test.

Mr. RUBY. When?

Chief Justice WARREN. You will have to let me see when we can figure that out. But I assure you, it won't be delayed, because our desire is to terminate the work of the Commission and make our report to the public just as soon as possible, so there won't be any misunderstanding caused by all of these rumors or stories that have been put out that are not consistent with the evidence in the case.

But it will not be unnecessarily delayed, and we will do it on behalf of the Commission, I promise you.

Mr. RUBY. All I want, and I beg you--when are you going to see the President?

Chief Justice WARREN. Well, I have no date with the President. I don't know just when. But as soon as I do see him, I will be glad to tell him what you have said.

Mr. RUBY. All I want is to take a polygraph to tell the truth. That is all I want to do.

Chief Justice WARREN. Yes; that, I promise you you can do.

Mr. RUBY. Because my people are going to suffer about things that will be said about me.

Chief Justice WARREN. Yes; well, I promise.

Mr. RUBY. Hold on another minute.

Chief Justice WARREN. All right.

Mr. RUBY. How do you know if the facts I stated about everything I said, statements with reference to, are the truth or not?

Chief Justice WARREN. Well, if you want a test made to test those principal questions, we will work them out so they can be tested.

As I understand it, you can't use the polygraph to say now this is the story.

Mr. RUBY. I know that.

Chief Justice WARREN. To say you have the story of Jack Ruby. You can't do that.

Mr. RUBY. I know that. You can clarify by questioning me when I conceived the idea and what my answer would naturally be that Sunday morning.

Chief Justice WARREN. Maybe I can help the situation this way. Suppose you list for us, if you can, the questions that you would like to have asked of you on the polygraph to establish the truth of your testimony.

What things do you consider vital in it, and what would you like to have verified?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; but you are telling me to do these things--these things are going to be promised, but you see they aren't going to let me do these things.

Because when you leave here, I am finished. My family is finished.

Representative FORD. Isn't it true, Mr. Chief Justice, that the same maximum protection and security Mr. Ruby has been given in the past will be continued?

Mr. RUBY. But now that I have divulged certain information because I want to be honest, all I want to take is a polygraph test and tell the truth about things and combat the lies that have been told about me.

Now maybe certain people don't want to know the truth that may come out of me. Is that plausible?

Representative FORD. In other words, the Chief Justice has agreed, and I on the Commission wholeheartedly concur, that you will be given a polygraph test as expeditiously as possible.

And I am sure you can rely on what has been stated here by the Chairman.

Mr. RUBY. How are we going to communicate and so on?

Chief Justice WARREN. We will communicate directly with you.

Mr. RUBY. You have a lost cause, Earl Warren. You don't stand a chance. They feel about you like they do about me, Chief Justice Warren.

I shouldn't hurt your feelings in telling you that.

Chief Justice WARREN. That won't hurt my feelings, because I have had some evidence of the feeling that some people have concerning me.

Mr. RUBY. But you are the only one that can save me. I think you can.

Chief Justice WARREN. Yes?

Mr. RUBY. But by delaying minutes, you lose the chance. And all I want to do is tell the truth, and that is all.

There was no conspiracy. But by you telling them what you are going to do and how you are going to do it is too late as of this moment.

Chief Justice WARREN. You take my word for it and the word of Representative Ford, that we will do this thing at the earliest possible moment, and that it will be done in time. It will be done in time.

Mr. RUBY. Well, you won't ever see me again, I tell you that. And I have lost my family.

Chief Justice WARREN. Yes?

Mr. RUBY. No, no; you don't believe me, do you?

Chief Justice WARREN. To be frank with you, I believe that you are not stating now what is the fact.

I don't say you don't believe it, but I believe that I will be able to see you again and that we will be able to take this test that you are speaking of.

Well, I think we have tired Mr. Ruby. We have had him here for close to 4 hours now, and I am sure our reporter must be equally tired, but we appreciate your patience and your willingness to testify in this manner for us.

Mr. RUBY. All I want to do is tell the truth, and the only way you can know it is by the polygraph, as that is the only way you can know it.

Chief Justice WARREN. That we will do for you.

(Whereupon, at 2:50 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Monday, June 8, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF HENRY WADE, PATRICK D. DEAN, AND WAGGONER CARR

The President's Commission met at 9:25 a.m., on June 8, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian; Waggoner Carr, attorney general of Texas, and Charles Murray, observers.

TESTIMONY OF HENRY WADE

Senator COOPER. Will you raise your hand?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WADE. I do.

Senator COOPER. You are informed about the purposes of this investigation.

Mr. WADE. I know it, generally.

Senator COOPER. Do you desire a lawyer?

Mr. WADE. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Thank you very much.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Wade, we are going to ask you generally about the time of Mr. Oswald's, Lee Harvey Oswald's, arrest, what you had to do in connection with the entire matter, and the press being there at the jail, and the scene and seeing what happened there, and the various things in regard to Mr. Dean and other witnesses in connection with the matter.

Will you state your name?

Mr. WADE. Henry Wade.

Mr. RANKIN. Where do you live?

Mr. WADE. I am district attorney, or criminal district attorney of Dallas, Tex.; my home is in Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us briefly your qualifications for your position and profession?

Mr. WADE. Well, I am a graduate of the University of Texas Law School, 1938, with highest honors. I was county attorney at Rock Wall, Tex., another county for 1 year. I resigned on December 4, 1939, and became a special agent of the FBI. As a special agent of the FBI--I was there until August of 1943, these were rough months--when I resigned and became an apprentice seaman in the Navy.

Later I became a lieutenant, junior grade, served in the Pacific 2 years, about 2 years.

Then after the war I got out of the Navy on the 6th of February 1946, ran for district attorney in Dallas and was not elected at that time. I hadn't ever lived in Dallas prior to that. You see there was another county. I was assistant district attorney and then was Federal prosecutor from January 1, 1947, up until December 1949, when I resigned and ran for district attorney.

I was elected district attorney in 1950 and have been criminal district attorney of Dallas County since January 1, 1951.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you handled many of the prosecutions of that county since that time?

Mr. WADE. Well, my office or I have handled all of them since that time. I have had quite a bit of experience myself. I have a staff of 41 lawyers and, of course, I don't try all the cases but I have tried quite a few, I would say 40, 50 anyhow since I have been district attorney.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any particular policy about which cases you would try generally?

Mr. WADE. Well, it varies according to who my first assistant has been. It is varied. If I have a first assistant who likes to try cases, I usually let him try a lot and I do the administrative. At the present time I have a very fine administrative assistant, Jim Bowie, whom you met and I try a few more cases.

I guess I have tried four in the last year probably but two to five a year are about all the cases I try myself personally.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any policy about capital cases as to whether you should try them or somebody else?

Mr. WADE. I don't try all of them. I try all the cases that are very aggravated and receive probably some publicity to some extent, and I don't try all the capital cases. I think we have had quite a few death penalties but I don't imagine I have been in over half of them, probably half of them.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember where you were at the time you learned of the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. WADE. Well, they were having a party for President Kennedy at Market Hall and I was out at Market Hall waiting for the President to arrive.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you learn about the assassination?

Mr. WADE. Well, one of the reporters for one of the newspapers told me there had been a shooting or something, of course, one of those things we were getting all kinds of rumors spreading through a crowd of 3,000-5,000 people, and then they got the radio on and the first report was they had killed two Secret Service agents, that was on the radio, and then the press all came running in there and then ran out, no one knew for sure what was going on until finally they announced that President had been shot and from the rostrum there the chairman of the----

Mr. DULLES. Who was the chairman of that meeting, do you recall?

Mr. WADE. Eric Johnson. Eric Johnson.

Mr. RANKIN. Was he mayor then?

Mr. WADE. No; he wasn't mayor, he was the president of Texas Industries and I believe was president of the Dallas Chamber of Commerce. I may have been wrong on that but he has been president of the chamber of commerce. He is president of Texas Industries, and this is not particularly important but he is--that was sort of a bipartisan deal, in that he is one of the leading Republicans of Dallas and he was chairman of the meeting.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you do after you heard of the assassination?

Mr. WADE. Well, the first thing, we were set up in a bus to go from there to Austin to another party that night for President Kennedy, a group of us, 30 or 40. We got on a bus and went. I went back to the office and sent my wife home, my wife was with me.

And the first thing that I did was go check the law to see whether it was a Federal offense or mine. I thought it was a Federal offense when I first heard about it. We checked the law, and were satisfied that was no serious Federal offense, or not a capital case, anyhow.

There might be some lesser offense. I talked to the U.S. attorney.

Mr. RANKIN. Who was that?

Mr. WADE. Barefoot Sanders and he was in agreement it was going to be our case rather than his and he had been doing the same thing.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did you talk to him?

Mr. WADE. On the telephone as I recall, in his office from my office. I am not even sure I talked with him, somebody from my office talked to him, because I think you can realize things were a little confused and that took us, say, until 3:30 or 4.

I let everybody in the office go home, but some of my key personnel who stayed there. I let the girls or told them they could go home, because they did close all the offices down there. The next thing I did--do you want me to tell you?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. WADE. I will tell you what I can.

The next thing I did was to go by the sheriff's office who is next door to me and talked to Decker, who is the sheriff. Bill Decker, and they were interviewing witnesses who were on the streets at the time, and I asked him and he said they have got a good prospect.

This must have been 3 o'clock roughly.

Mr. RANKIN. The witnesses that were on the street near the Depository Building?

Mr. WADE. Yes, sir; and in the building, I am not sure who they were, they had two court reporters there taking statements.

Mr. RANKIN. Did they tell you anything about a suspect at that point?

Mr. WADE. The Sheriff told me, he said, "Don't say nothing about it, but they have got a good suspect," talking about the Dallas Police.

He didn't have him there. John Connally, you know, was shot also--and he was, he used to be a roommate of mine in the Navy and we were good friends, and are now--and the first thing I did then was went out to the hospital to see how he was getting along.

I must have stayed out there until about 5 o'clock, and in case you all don't know or understand one thing, it has never been my policy to make any investigations out of my office of murders or anything else for that matter. We leave that entirely to the police agency.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have a reason for that?

Mr. WADE. That is the way it is set up down there. We have more than we can do actually in trying the cases. The only time we investigate them is after they are filed on, indicted, and then we have investigators who get them ready for trial and then lawyers.

Mr. DULLES. Have you any personnel for that?

Mr. WADE. No, sir; I have in my office 11 investigators but that is just 1 for each court, and they primarily, or at least about all they do is line up the witnesses for trial and help with jury picking and things of that kind.

Mr. RANKIN. At this point that you are describing, had you learned of any arrest?

Mr. WADE. No, sir; Mr. Decker says they have a good suspect. He said that sometime around 3 o'clock. You see, I didn't have the benefit of all that was on the air. I didn't even know Oswald had been arrested at this time. As a matter of fact, I didn't know it at 5 o'clock when I left the hospital.

When I left the hospital, I went home, watched television a while, had dinner, and a couple, some friends of ours came over there. They were going to Austin with us on the bus, and we had dinner and started out somewhere but I said we had better go by the police station.

At that time they kept announcing they had Oswald or I believe they named a name.

Mr. RANKIN. Had you learned about the Tippit murder yet?

Mr. WADE. Yes, sir; of course, it had been on the air that Tippit had been killed.

I went by the Dallas police, just to let us see what was kind of going on.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that unusual for you to do that?

Mr. WADE. It was unusual because I hadn't been in the Dallas Police Department, I won't be there on the average of once a year actually, I mean on anything. I went by there and I went to Chief Curry's office.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you happen to do that this time?

Mr. WADE. Of course, this is not really, this was not an ordinary case, this was a little bit different, and I mostly wanted to know how he was coming along on the investigation is the main reason I went by.