Chapter XXXI: Section 51: 135, entitled "Denial of passports to members of Communist (1)

organizations," states, "A passport shall not be issued to, or renewed for, any individual who the issuing officer knows or has reason to believe is a member of a Communist organization registered or required to be registered under section 7 of the Subversive Activities Control Act of 1950, as amended."

Was there any evidence in the files of Lee Harvey Oswald which could give to the issuing officer either the knowledge that he was a member of a Communist organization or such evidence as would lead the issuing officer to believe that he was?

Miss KNIGHT. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Why do you say that?

Miss KNIGHT. Because, there was nothing in the passport file or in the reports that we received from investigative agencies that would indicate that he had any Communist leanings or any Communist affiliations prior to his sojourn in the Soviet Union.

Senator COOPER. There wasn't anything in his file from the reports of the State Department concerning his defection to Russia and his return which indicated that he was a member of the Communist Party?

Miss KNIGHT. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Or a Communist organization?

Miss KNIGHT. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Was there anything in the files from the FBI or any other security agency which would give you that information?

Miss KNIGHT. None that I saw; no, sir. I do know that there were two recent intelligence reports from the FBI, and they were dated October 31, 1963, and October 25, 1963, and these were logged into the Passport Office on November 20, 1963, and on November 22, 1963, respectively.

Senator COOPER. They were then, of course, would have been, received in the office after the time.

Miss KNIGHT. That was the date of the assassination.

Senator COOPER. After the time that the passport had been renewed.

Mr. COLEMAN. That included the information that he was active in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee.

Miss KNIGHT. That is correct, and these were referred to us by the Office of Security, and then on 5:30 a.m. on November 23, 1963, these reports were called for on an urgent basis by the Administrator of the Bureau of Security and Consular Affairs and we delivered them to him at approximately 7:30 that morning.

I never saw these reports and no one in the Passport Office had an opportunity to read them or see them.

Senator COOPER. The point I am making is, am I correct or are you correct, when you say at the time Oswald's passport was either issued or renewed to make the trip to Mexico City, that there was no evidence in his files of any kind which would indicate that he was a member of a Communist organization?

Miss KNIGHT. No, sir; there was nothing in the file.

Senator COOPER. What weight would you give to the fact that he had defected and had returned to the United States, and had claimed once that he wanted to renounce American citizenship? Would that be a fact to which you would give weight in determining whether or not you believed he was a member of the Communist organization?

Miss KNIGHT. Yes, sir; I understand your question. I did not adjudicate the Oswald citizenship case. But I would say that the adjudicators must have taken into consideration his instability which was reported in the dispatches, his attitude, his age, he was 20 years old at the time, and the fact that when he finally made his appeal to come back to the United States, he denied that he had asked for Soviet citizenship, that he was considered a Soviet citizen, and he further denied that he had offered anybody information.

He denied practically everything that he, in very bad temper, had told the consul that he was going to do. This, I think, is fairly well established in the document he signed, and which was sent to us when his passport was renewed and limited for return to the United States.

Senator COOPER. I am first directing my attention to the issuance or renewal of the passport which enabled him to go to Mexico City. I want to keep on that for a moment.

Miss KNIGHT. He didn't have a passport for Mexico City.

Senator COOPER. Not a passport for Mexico City.

Mr. COLEMAN. He had the passport in June 1963.

Senator COOPER. Yes; to go over to Cuba and different places.

Miss KNIGHT. We did not know, and there was nothing, I think I am right about this, there is nothing in our files to indicate that he went to Cuba or that he went to the Cuban Embassy in Mexico City. I understand this was brought out.

Mr. COLEMAN. Yes; that is true.

Miss KNIGHT. Is that right?

Mr. DULLES. Not until October 1963.

Mr. COLEMAN. Even then, Mr. Dulles, they didn't know. The notice they got from Mexico only stated that he had been at the Soviet Embassy and not that he had been over to the Cuban Embassy.

Mr. DULLES. Is that correct?

Mr. COLEMAN. Yes.

Senator COOPER. The point I am trying to develop at some point in 1963 prior to the assassination he went to the office in New Orleans.

Miss KNIGHT. That is right, the New Orleans Passport Agency.

Senator COOPER. And he secured a passport there.

Miss KNIGHT. He applied for a passport.

Senator COOPER. To travel, applied for a passport, to travel in a number of countries.

Miss KNIGHT. That is right.

Senator COOPER. And that was issued to him.

Miss KNIGHT. That is right.

Senator COOPER. On the following day?

Miss KNIGHT. That is right.

Senator COOPER. At that time, of course, the issuing officer was under the restrictions of the regulations here that we have been talking about. What would the officer--would the officer in New Orleans have any information available to him?

Miss KNIGHT. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. About Oswald?

Miss KNIGHT. No, sir; the operation works like this: New Orleans is one of eight passport agencies in the United States. They are connected with the main office by teletype. Oswald made an application for a passport at the New Orleans agency, and they TWX'd to us, his name and identification--that is, date and place of birth, and so on. His name was one on a list of names. There may have been 15 or 20 of them.

Mr. COLEMAN. The record shows there were 25.

Miss KNIGHT. 25.

These names were then checked over the lookout file which I have explained here.

Senator COOPER. Here in Washington?

Miss KNIGHT. Yes; and if there is no card in the lookout file, it is presumed that he is clear, because if we had information that he was an active Communist, or that we had reason to believe that there should be further check on him, this would have been reflected in the lookout file. There was no such card in the file.

Senator COOPER. All right. At that time, then, when he had made his application and the information was sent to your office, there was no lookout card?

Miss KNIGHT. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Which would indicate that he was a Communist or a member of a Communist organization, registered, and so forth. And did you have such a system then?

Miss KNIGHT. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Of lookout cards?

Miss KNIGHT. Yes, sir; we have had that system for a long time.

Senator COOPER. Was your reason for not having a lookout card for Oswald, that there wasn't anything in his file to indicate that he was a member of a Communist organization?

Miss KNIGHT. That is correct.

Senator COOPER. Is that the reason?

Miss KNIGHT. That is correct. Because the FBI reports which had come to the Passport Office during his sojourn in the Soviet Union and after, did not indicate that he was a Communist. As a matter of fact, they were concerned with several other things, his mother's concern regarding his whereabouts, the fact that he had made a declaration that he wished to become a Soviet citizen; and the question of expatriation. But there was nothing in the files to indicate that he had had any contact or any active part in the Communist Party.

Senator COOPER. The fact that he had married a Russian girl and brought her to the United States have any significance in the determination that the issuing officer would have to make?

Miss KNIGHT. No.

Senator COOPER. You are sure that the FBI nor any other security agency had placed any information in that file which would fall within the scope of this first section dealing with, applicable to passports?

Miss KNIGHT. I am sure of that; yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Have you yourself examined those files?

Miss KNIGHT. I examined the file last Saturday for the first time.

Senator COOPER. And do you know who had charge of the file?

Miss KNIGHT. The file was in the Passport Office up until November 22, the day of the assassination.

Senator COOPER. Where did it go then?

Miss KNIGHT. It went to the Bureau of Security and Consular Affairs, to Mr. Schwartz.

Senator COOPER. Who is in charge there?

Miss KNIGHT. Mr. Schwartz. He is the Administrator.

Mr. EHRLICH. I might add he turned them over immediately, he turned them over to Mr. Chayes who was authorized to take charge of all files and they were maintained in the Office of the Legal Adviser.

And anyone in the Department who wanted to review them was free to do so but we kept them all in one place.

Senator COOPER. Have you been testifying?

Mr. EHRLICH. I have broken in.

Senator COOPER. Just for the purpose of the record identify yourself.

Mr. EHRLICH. I have not been sworn in. My name is Thomas Ehrlich, I am Special Assistant to the Legal Adviser to the Department of State.

Mr. DULLES. I might add Mr. Chayes testified in some detail that he was asked by Mr. Ball, Acting Secretary of State, on the night, afternoon, late afternoon and late evening of the assassination, to get all the files regarding Oswald together and to prepare for him and the Secretary of State, who was returning the next morning, a detailed report on the whole Oswald case, and I assume that the file went from you to Mr. Schwartz, to Mr. Chayes.

And from there Mr. Chayes collected reports from other sources.

Miss KNIGHT. That is right.

Senator COOPER. I am not questioning any fact that these people testified to but I think for the record it is important to know where the file was and whether or not it is the same file, with the same papers in it that were in existence on November 22, which you turned over to your superior.

Miss KNIGHT. Well, of course, we presume all the papers are in there. The file was pretty thick, and, of course, it takes time to go over the papers. We had not time to look at the file or to check it, and there is no way of knowing whether any papers were taken in or out.

Mr. COLEMAN. Senator Cooper, we have the files and we also have letters from Mr. Chayes that to the best of his knowledge and ability every piece of paper which the State Department had which in any way bore on Oswald has now been turned over to the Commission and those letters were marked today.

Senator COOPER. I go a little further.

Look at 51.136, "Limitations on issuance of passports to certain other persons.

"In order to promote and safeguard the interests of the United States, passport facilities, except for direct and immediate return to the United States, shall be refused to a person when it appears to the satisfaction of the Secretary of State that the person's activities abroad would: (a) Violate the laws of the United States; (b) be prejudicial to the orderly conduct of foreign relations; or (c) otherwise be prejudicial to the interests of the United States."

Now, at the time this passport was issued to Oswald in New Orleans, was there any information in his passport file about his conduct in New Orleans in connection with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee?

Miss KNIGHT. There was nothing in the passport file on that. It is my understanding that there were two FBI reports that had come in and they were logged into the Passport Office on November 20 and November 22.

Senator COOPER. I know, but I am thinking of June 24, 1963. This decision to issue a passport to Oswald to go to Mexico and various other countries was made on when?

Mr. COLEMAN. June 24, 1963.

Senator COOPER. Was there any information in his file relative to his participation in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans?

Miss KNIGHT. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. The first information that came to the office came in November?

Miss KNIGHT. November 20 and 22.

Senator COOPER. And November 22.

Miss KNIGHT. And I think, Senator, you would be interested to know that these FBI reports are sent to us by the Office of Security.

A large volume of these reports come to us in the Passport Office on a very routine basis.

The last 6 months of 1963 over 3,000 such reports were received, that is 500 security reports a month, and in order to be effective and to render the ultimate in security these reports should be read by individuals who are knowledgeable; who are trained to spot information of security significance.

The staff that is assigned to this task is very limited, and it is heavily overburdened with many assignments, some of which take priority to the reading of reports, and it is physically impossible for the present staff of our legal division, which is headed by Mr. Johnson, to read and analyze the information in these reports as promptly and as thoroughly as should be done.

The eternal question that we are faced with is a matter of diminishing returns. It is almost impossible to staff the Passport Office 100 percent for security and with knowledgeability of everything that goes on, and in the course of the year the Passport Office puts in thousands of hours of overtime, uncompensated overtime, trying to catch up with this work and believe me, this makes little or no impression on the vast amount of paperwork, the reading, the reporting and the analyzing of reports which come in to us.

Senator COOPER. I can see your problem.

But now, assuming that this report from the FBI about Oswald's activities in New Orleans with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in which he was distributing material, and had been arrested, and was operating under assumed names, had been known, had been in the file at the time the application for a passport to go to Mexico and other countries had been made, would that have been of any significance?

Miss KNIGHT. Oh, yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. In determining whether or not a passport should be issued?

Miss KNIGHT. Yes, sir; very definitely. If those reports had reached us prior to the passport application we certainly would have put a card in the file.

As a matter of fact, it seems to me that if they had come to the Passport Office we would have advised the Bureau of Security and Consular Affairs that this had become a Cuban case. These are handled by Mr. Schwartz personally.

Senator COOPER. Do you know when the report from the FBI concerning Oswald's activities in New Orleans in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee reached the State Department rather than the Passport Division?

Miss KNIGHT. When it reached the Department, I don't know. I think maybe Mr. Ehrlich might know.

Mr. EHRLICH. I will look to see if I have it.

Miss KNIGHT. I have the dates of them.

Senator COOPER. Will you give the date?

Miss KNIGHT. The date of the reports?

Senator COOPER. The date when it was sent, when it was received.

Miss KNIGHT. The reports were dated October 31, 1963, and October 25, 1963, and they were logged into the Passport Office on November 20, 1963, and November 22, 1963.

Senator COOPER. All of those dates are after the date of the issuance of the passport?

Miss KNIGHT. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. I have just one more thing I want to inquire about.

Are you familiar with the--were you the Chief of the Passport Division at the time Oswald returned from Russia to the United States?

Miss KNIGHT. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Who was empowered to issue passports in Moscow to Oswald?

Miss KNIGHT. Well, it was the consul, but he would not issue a passport or, in this particular case even limit the passport for return to the United States, without clearance from our office.

Senator COOPER. Then when Oswald made his application to return to the United States and to secure a passport to return to the United States, that application had to be cleared by the division, your division, in Washington?

Miss KNIGHT. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Did you make the determination as to whether the passport should be issued to him?

Miss KNIGHT. I personally did not. This was made by experienced citizenship lawyers.

Senator COOPER. By whom?

Miss KNIGHT. The decision was made by experienced citizenship lawyers in the Foreign Operations Division of the Passport Office. It was determined that Oswald had not expatriated himself. He had signed the necessary papers and he answered the required questionnaire under oath, and to the satisfaction of the Passport Office. Both the consul, who had an opportunity to talk to Oswald, and the citizenship lawyers, who handled the case in the Passport Office, were in agreement that he had not expatriated himself.

Mr. DULLES. Those details are in the file in considerable extent.

Mr. COLEMAN. Senator Cooper, for the record let me note we have Oswald's passport which is Commission Exhibit No. 946 and it states on page 15 thereof that the passport was renewed on May 24, 1962, and it expired on June 24, 1962, and it also stated when Mr. Oswald came into the United States on June 13, 1962.

Senator COOPER. I have just two more questions then.

One, at the time you issued the passport that Oswald was issued in New Orleans to go to Mexico and the other countries there was no requirement at that time that a lookout card be fixed to his file as a defector?

Miss KNIGHT. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Whatever decision has been made on that has come since that time?

Miss KNIGHT. When you say "defector," the answer to that is in the questionnaire.

Senator COOPER. When I say "defector," was there any regulation, I mean in the Department, which required any special attention to be given to a defector----

Miss KNIGHT. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. With regard to the issuance of passports?

Miss KNIGHT. No, sir; and we cannot deny them passports.

Senator COOPER. My last question is, is it your statement that at the time you issued the passport in Moscow for his return to the United States, at the time the passport was issued in New Orleans, 1963, for his trip to Mexico and other countries, that there was nothing in the regulations relevant and nothing in the files which precluded you from issuing a passport to him?

Miss KNIGHT. This is my opinion; yes, sir.

Mr. COLEMAN. I have no other questions.

Mr. DULLES. I have no further questions.

Mr. COLEMAN. Thank you, Miss Knight. We appreciate your coming in.

(Whereupon, at 6:35 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Thursday, June 11, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD AND HARRIS COULTER

The President's Commission met at 9:45 a.m., on June 11, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, DC.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Gerald Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Harris Coulter, interpreter; Leon Jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas; William McKenzie, attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; and Charles Murray, observer.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.

Shall we reswear Mrs. Oswald?

Mr. RANKIN. I would think her former swearing would be sufficient, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. You consider yourself under oath, do you, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, we would like to have you tell about the incident in regard to Mr. Nixon that you have told about since we had your last examination. Could you tell us what you know about that incident, first, when it happened insofar as you can recall?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am very sorry I didn't mention this before. I prefer that you ask me the questions and that will help me to remember what there is.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what Mr. Nixon it is, was it Richard Nixon, the former Vice President of the United States that you were referring to?

Mrs. OSWALD. I only know one Nixon and I think it was Richard Nixon which it was all about.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you fix the date when this occurrence did happen? Approximately?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was a weekend before he went to New Orleans and after the Walker business I think. But I might be mistaken as to whether or not this was a weekend because I am basing this on the fact that my husband was home and he wasn't--wasn't always employed and he was at home weekdays as well sometimes, so I can't be entirely sure that it was a weekend.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you place the place of the various homes you had that this happened?

Mrs. OSWALD. Neely Street.

Mr. RANKIN. At the Neely Street house. Do you know what time of day it occurred?

Mrs. OSWALD. This was in the morning.

Mr. RANKIN. Who was there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Just my husband and me.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, will you describe in detail just what happened. Mrs. Oswald, when you are answering the questions will you try to break up your answers, and let the interpreter try to translate; I think it will be helpful in not having the interpreter have to try to remember everything of a long answer. Do you understand me?

Mr. DULLES. May I suggest also, Mr. Rankin, that I think it would be preferable that the record be in the first person, that is, the interpreter translate just as she said it.

I was looking over the earlier record and that is the way it was over the earlier record and it went quite well.

Mrs. OSWALD. It was early in the morning and my husband went out to get a newspaper, then he came in and sat reading the newspaper. I didn't pay any attention to him because I was occupied with the housework.

Then he got dressed and put on a good suit. I saw that he took a pistol. I asked him where he was going, and why he was getting dressed. He answered, "Nixon is coming. I want to go and have a look." I said, "I know how you look," or rather, "I know how you customarily look, how you customarily take a look," because I saw he was taking the pistol with him rather than I know how you look in the sense that you are dressed, how you look at things is what I mean.

Mr. RANKIN. Had it come to your attention, Mrs. Oswald, that Mr. Nixon was going to be in Dallas prior to that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; it did not.

Mr. RANKIN. Had you seen anything in the newspapers or heard anything over the radio or television?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; we didn't have TV. I didn't see this in the newspaper.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know what newspaper it was in which your husband read this report?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; Dallas Morning News maybe. It was a morning paper.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether there was any information at all in the papers about Mr. Nixon planning to come to Dallas about that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't ever read the newspaper and I did not know; therefore, didn't know whether there was any information in the newspapers prior to this time about Vice President Nixon's arrival in Dallas.

Representative FORD. Could we establish the date more precisely, either by the newspapers or by testimony from Mrs. Oswald?

(At this point, the Chief Justice left the hearing room.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, can you help us by telling how many days it was before you went to New Orleans that this incident occurred?

Mrs. OSWALD. What day did I go to New Orleans?

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that your husband went to New Orleans on April 24?

Mrs. OSWALD. April 24? My husband?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes; and you went at a later date with Mrs. Paine, do you remember that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I remember it was about 2 weeks before.

Mr. RANKIN. Two weeks before April 24?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; but when was the incident with Walker?

Mr. RANKIN. April 10 was the Walker incident. Does that help you?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is a short distance, you know, I think maybe----

Mr. RANKIN. So you think it had to be sometime between April 10 and April 24?

Mrs. OSWALD. This may be 10 days or more. I think it was closer to the time when my husband left for New Orleans than it was to the incident of General Walker. I think it was less than a week before my husband left for New Orleans. I did not think up this incident with Nixon myself.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by that, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. I had forgotten entirely about the incident with Vice President Nixon when I was here the first time. When you asked me the questions about it, then I remembered it. I wasn't trying to deceive you the first time.

Mr. RANKIN. What did your husband say that day about Richard Nixon, when he got this gun and dressed up. Did he tell you anything about him?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; I just didn't know what to do, you know.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you know he was interested in doing something about Mr. Nixon at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. My husband just said that Nixon is coming to Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. OSWALD. First I didn't know what to do. I wanted to prevent him from going out.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him?

Mrs. OSWALD. I called him into the bathroom and I closed the door and I wanted to prevent him and then I started to cry. And I told him that he shouldn't do this, that he had promised me.

Mr. RANKIN. Are you referring to his promise to you that you described in your prior testimony after the Walker incident?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; that was the promise.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the bathroom, how the door closes? Does it close into the bathroom on Neely Street or from the outside in?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember now. I don't remember. I only remember that it was something to do with the bathroom.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you lock him into the bathroom?

Mrs. OSWALD. I can't remember precisely.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how the locks were on the bathroom door there?

Mrs. OSWALD. I can't recall. We had several apartments and I might be confusing one apartment with the other.

Mr. RANKIN. Is it your testimony that you made it impossible for him to get out if he wanted to?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

Representative FORD. Did he try to get out of the bathroom?

Mrs. OSWALD. I remember that I held him. We actually struggled for several minutes and then he quieted down. I remember that I told him that if he goes out it would be better for him to kill me than to go out.

Mr. DULLES. He is quite a big man and you are a small woman.

Mrs. OSWALD. No; he is not a big man. He is not strong.

Mr. DULLES. Well, he was 5 feet 9, and you are how tall?

Mrs. OSWALD. When he is very upset, my husband is very upset he is not strong and when I want to and when I collect all my forces and want to do something very badly I am stronger than he is.

Mr. DULLES. You meant mentally or physically?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am not strong but, you know, there is a certain balance of forces between us.

Mr. DULLES. Do you think it was persuasion, your persuasion of him or the physical force or both that prevented him from going?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think it was physically, physical prevention because if he--I couldn't keep him from going out if he really wanted to. It might have been that he was just trying to test me. He was the kind of person who could try and wound somebody in that way. Possibly he didn't want to go out at all but was just doing this all as a sort of joke, not really as a joke but rather to simply wound me, to make me feel bad.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Rankin, if I may interpose here for a moment. Mrs. Oswald has been interrogated at length by the FBI in connection with this particular incident--the Nixon incident. I feel confident that the FBI has made a written report insofar as her testimony is concerned in their interrogation, but for purposes of the record I have no objection whatsoever for the FBI report to be included in the record as part of the record.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you, Mr. McKenzie. We will incorporate those reports as a part of the record in regard to this incident, if that is agreeable to the Commission.

Mr. McKENZIE. The reason I say that is because of the fact that those interrogations were conducted at an earlier date and closer to the actual incident, the state of time to the actual incidents than her interrogation here today, and insofar as dates are concerned I think that her mind would be clearer on those dates, and I likewise know that at that time a Russian interpreter was there.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. McKenzie, I think with the members of the Commission here that I want to ask a number of questions about this incident because of its importance so they can observe the witness as well as have the benefit of her testimony.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Rankin, in no way am I suggesting otherwise but if it would help the Commission in evaluating her testimony and evaluating the evidence that it has had heretofore in prior testimony we have no objection to those reports being a part of the record in any way.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you.

Mrs. OSWALD. I might be mistaken about some of the details of this incident but it is very definite he got dressed, took a gun, and then didn't go out. The reason why there might be some confusion in my mind about the details because it happened in other apartments in which we lived that we quarreled and then I would shut him in the bathroom, and in this particular case it may not have happened quite that way, but there is no doubt that he got dressed and had a gun.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember what you said to him and what he said to you at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember now but I told the FBI precisely.

Mr. RANKIN. And were your reports to the FBI in regard to this incident accurate, truthful, and correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. They were correct as far as I could remember. The only detail as far as my memory served me--the only detail which might be confused is the one with the bathroom.

Mr. RANKIN. Had your husband said anything before or did he say anything at that time in regard to Mr. Nixon showing any hostility, friendship, or anything else?

Mrs. OSWALD. Showing any hostility or friendship toward Mr. Nixon?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes; toward Nixon.

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember him saying anything--I don't remember but he didn't tell me. I don't remember him saying anything of that sort. I only remember the next day he told me that Nixon did not come. Excuse me.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. The FBI suggested that possibly I was confused between Johnson and Nixon but there is no question that in this incident it was a question of Mr. Nixon. I remember distinctly the name Nixon because I read from the presidential elections that there was a choice between President Kennedy and Mr. Nixon.

Representative FORD. Where did your husband get the pistol that morning; do you remember?

Mrs. OSWALD. What, where?

Representative FORD. Where.

Mrs. OSWALD. My husband had a small room where he kept all that sort of thing. It is a little larger than a closet.

Representative FORD. Did you see him go in and get the pistol?

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't see him go into the room. I only saw him standing before the open door and putting the pistol in his pocket.

Representative FORD. Do you recall which pocket he put the pistol in?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was not in a pocket. He put it in his belt.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. Had you and your husband ever discussed Mr. Nixon at a previous, at any previous time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. No.

Mr. RANKIN. What else happened about this incident beyond what you have told us?

Mrs. OSWALD. He took off his suit and stayed home all day reading a book. He gave me the pistol and I hid it under the mattress.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything more than you have told us to him about this matter at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. I closed the front door to the building that day and when we were quarreling about--when we were struggling over the question of whether or not he should go out I said a great deal to him.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to him then?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

Mr. RANKIN. Just tell us in substance?

Mrs. OSWALD. I really don't remember now. I only remember that I told him that I am sorry of all these pranks of his and especially after the one with General Walker, and he had promised me, I told him that he had promised me----

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything in answer to that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

Mr. DULLES. As I recall, in your previous testimony there was some indication that you had said that if he did the Walker type of thing again you would notify the authorities. Did that conversation come up at this time with your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I said that. But he didn't go at that time and after all he was my husband.

Mr. DULLES. Does--do you mean you said it again at the time of the Nixon incident?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I told him that but you must understand that I don't speak English very well, and for that reason I used to keep a piece of paper with me, and I had it, you know, what piece of paper I am talking about. At that time I didn't know how to go in police station: I don't know where it was.

Mr. McKENZIE. Was that the passport?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. After the incident with Walker----

Mr. RANKIN. Was that paper the Walker incident note that you have described in your testimony?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative FORD. When you put the pistol under the mattress, what happened to the pistol from then on?

Mrs. OSWALD. That evening he asked for it and said that nothing was going to happen, and that he said he wouldn't do anything and took the pistol back. And put it into his room.

Mr. DULLES. Did you keep the, what you call, the Walker note with you all the time or did you have it in a particular place where you could go and get it and show it to him?

Mrs. OSWALD. I had it all the time. I kept it in a certain place initially and then I put it in the pages of a book.

Senator COOPER. Mr. Rankin, would you ask the witness to state again what Lee Oswald's promise was to her that he had made at the time of the Walker incident?

Mr. RANKIN. Will you relate the promise that your husband made to you right after the discovery of the Walker incident by you?

Mrs. OSWALD. This wasn't a written promise.

Mr. RANKIN. No.

Mrs. OSWALD. But in words it was more or less that I told him that he was very lucky that he hadn't killed--it very good that he hadn't killed General Walker. I said it was fate that--it was fated that General Walker not be killed and therefore he shouldn't try such a thing again.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say in answer to that?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said perhaps I am right. I myself didn't believe what I was saying because I didn't believe that he was fated. I was just trying to find some way of dissuading my husband to do such a thing again. Do you understand what I mean?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes. Did he say that he would or would not do that again, that is what I want to know.

Mrs. OSWALD. At the time I did definitely convince him that I was right, and at the time he said that he would not do such a thing again.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, when you talked to him about the Nixon incident and persuaded him not to go out and do anything to Mr. Nixon, did you say anything about your pregnancy in trying to persuade him?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I told him that I was pregnant.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe his action at the time of this Nixon incident, how he acted?

Mrs. OSWALD. How he reacted to this?

Mr. RANKIN. How he reacted to your interfering with him.

Mrs. OSWALD. At first he was extremely angry, and he said, "You are always getting in my way." But then rather quickly he gave in, which was rather unusual for him. At the time I didn't give this any thought, but now I think it was just rather a kind of nasty joke he was playing with me. Sometimes Lee was--he had a sadistic--my husband had a sadistic streak in him and he got pleasure out of harming people, and out of harming me, not physically but emotionally and mentally.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you told us substantially all that happened about this Nixon incident?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is all I can remember.

Representative FORD. Can you tell us why you didn't mention this incident to the Commission when you appeared before?

Mrs. OSWALD. There were an awful lot of questions at that time, and I was very tired and felt that I had told everything and I don't remember, I can't understand why I didn't mention this. It would have been better for me to mention it the first time than to make you all do more work on it.

Mr. DULLES. At the time of this incident did you threaten to go to the authorities in case your husband did not desist in his intention?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I said that.

Senator COOPER. I may have to go--could I ask a few questions? Mrs. Oswald, will you repeat what your husband said that morning when he dressed and got the pistol?

Mrs. OSWALD. I asked him where he was going and why he was getting dressed. He answered. "Today Nixon is coming and I want to go out and have a look at him."

I answered, "I know how you look," and I had in mind the fact that he was taking a pistol with him.

Senator COOPER. Did he say anything about what he intended to do with the pistol?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator COOPER. Did you ask him if he intended to use the pistol against Mr. Nixon?

Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that, "You have already promised me not to play any more with that thing." Not really play, but, you know--I didn't mean, of course, just playing but using the pistol. Then he said, "I am going to go out and find out if there will be an appropriate opportunity and if there is I will use the pistol." I just remembered this and maybe I didn't say this in my first testimony and now it just has occurred to me that he said this.

Senator COOPER. Did your husband say why he wanted to use the pistol against Mr. Nixon?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator COOPER. Did he say where he intended to see Mr. Nixon?

Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't say. He just said in Dallas, and since Nixon was coming to Dallas.

Senator COOPER. When he was talking to you about seeing Mr. Nixon and using the pistol, what was his attitude? Was he angry or----

Mrs. OSWALD. He wasn't angry. He looked more preoccupied and had sort of a concentrated look.

Senator COOPER. Now, from the beginning, from the time that he first told you that he was going to use the pistol, until the time that you say he became quieted, did he again make any statement about using the pistol against Mr. Nixon?

Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that I didn't want him to use his gun any more. He said, "I will go out and have a look and perhaps I won't use my gun, but if there is a convenient opportunity perhaps I will." Strike "perhaps" please from that last sentence. I didn't have a lot of time to think of what we were actually saying. All I was trying to do was to prevent him from going out.

Senator COOPER. How much time elapsed, if you can remember, from the time he first told you that he was going out and when he finally became pacified?

Mrs. OSWALD. This was maybe 30 minutes. The whole incident took maybe 20 minutes. It was about 10 minutes I took--15 minutes maybe. 15 minutes, it took maybe 10 minutes for him to be prepared to go out and then the incident in the bathroom took maybe 5 minutes until he quieted down. It doesn't mean I held him in the bathroom for 5 minutes because I couldn't do that but the general discussion in the bathroom.

Senator COOPER. You said he stayed at the house the remainder of the day. During the remainder of the day did you discuss again with him the incident?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; no.

Senator COOPER. Did he say anything more that day?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. He read a book.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know what book it was, by chance?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. It was some kind of book from the public library. He had a two-volume history of the United States. This is not from the library, this was his own book.

Mr. DULLES. The incident occurred, you said just a few days after he had told you he shot at General Walker?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was about 10 or 12 days after the incident with General Walker, perhaps about 3 days before we left for the departure for New Orleans. This didn't happen right after the incident with General Walker. It happened rather closer to a time when we departed for New Orleans.

Mr. DULLES. The General Walker incident made a very strong impression on you, didn't it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course. I never thought that Lee had a gun in order to use it to shoot at somebody with.

Mr. DULLES. Didn't this statement that he made about Vice President Nixon make a strong impression on you also?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. I was pregnant at the time. I had a lot of other things to worry about. I was getting pretty well tired of all of these escapades of his.

Mr. DULLES. Was there any reason why you didn't tell the Commission about this when you testified before?

Mrs. OSWALD. I had no--there is no particular reason. I just forgot. Very likely this incident didn't make a very great impression on me at that time.

Mr. DULLES. Now, before the death of President Kennedy, of course, you knew that your husband had purchased a rifle?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. You knew that he had purchased a pistol?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. And a knife?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; what kind of knife?

Mr. DULLES. Did he have a knife?

Mrs. OSWALD. He had a little pocket knife; I think.

Mr. DULLES. You knew that he had told you that he had tried to kill General Walker?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. And, of course, as you said you heard him make a threat against Nixon.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Did you have some fear that he would use these weapons against someone else?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course; I was afraid.

Mr. DULLES. What?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course; I was afraid.

Mr. DULLES. You thought that he might use his weapons against someone?

Mrs. OSWALD. After the incident with Nixon I stopped believing him.

Mr. DULLES. You what?

Mrs. OSWALD. I stopped believing him.

Mr. DULLES. Why?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because he wasn't obeying me any longer, because he promised and then he broke his promise.

Mr. DULLES. Would you repeat that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because he wasn't obeying me any more. He promised and, he made a promise and then he broke it.

Mr. DULLES. That is my question. Having been told that--isn't it correct he told you that he shot at General Walker? He made a promise to you that he wouldn't do anything like that again, you heard him threaten Vice President Nixon, didn't it occur to you then that there was danger that he would use these weapons against someone else in the future?

Mrs. OSWALD. After the incident with Walker, I believed him when he told me that he wouldn't use the weapons any longer.

Mr. DULLES. I remember you testified before and I asked you if you had heard him threaten any official or other person and your answer was no.

Mrs. OSWALD. Because I forgot at that time about the incident with Nixon.

Mr. DULLES. I want to ask you again: In view of the fact that you knew--in view of the fact that he had threatened Walker by shooting at him, and he threatened Vice President Nixon can you not tell this Commission whether after that he threatened to hurt, harm any other person?

Mrs. OSWALD. Nobody else. Perhaps I should be punished for not having said anything about all this, but I was just a wife and I was trying to keep the family together, at that time. I mean to say. I am talking, of course, of the time before President Kennedy's death. And if I forget to say anything now, I am not doing it on purpose.

Mr. DULLES. I am just asking questions. Will you say here that he never did make any statement against President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Never.

Mr. DULLES. Did he ever make any statement about him of any kind?

Mrs. OSWALD. He used to read and translate articles from the newspaper about Kennedy to me and from magazines, favorable articles about Kennedy. He never commented on them and he never discussed them in any way but because of his translations and his reading to me he always had a favorable feeling about President Kennedy because he always read these favorably inclined articles to me. He never said that these articles never were true that he was a bad President or anything like that.

Mr. DULLES. I didn't catch the last.

Mrs. OSWALD. He never said these articles were not true or that President Kennedy was a bad President or anything like that.

Senator COOPER. I think you testified before that he made statements showing his dislike of our system of government and its economic system.

Mrs. OSWALD. He used to complain about the educational difficulties and about the unemployment in the United States and about the high cost of medical care.

Mr. McKENZIE. Right there, please, may I, Mr. Dulles when did he complain of those things, was this in Russia or was it in the United States after you returned from Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. After our return from Russia. When we were living in New Orleans after returning from Russia.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did he likewise make such complaints about the American system while you were living in Russia after you were married?

Mrs. OSWALD. He used to tell me that it was difficult to find a job and to get work in the United States but nonetheless we would be better there than we were in Russia. Excuse me. He was the kind of person who was never able to get along anywhere he was and when he was in Russia he used to say good things about the United States and when he was in the United States he used to talk well about Russia.

Senator COOPER. You knew, of course, because of the incidents in New Orleans that he did not like American policy respecting Cuba.

Mrs. OSWALD. He was definitely a supporter of Cuba. This was something which remained with him from Russia.

Senator COOPER. Did he ever say to you who was responsible or who had some responsibility for our policy toward Cuba?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator COOPER. Had he ever mentioned President Kennedy in connection with our Cuban policy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Never to me.

Mr. DULLES. Did he ever say anything----

Mrs. OSWALD. He might have discussed this with Paine.

Senator COOPER. With who?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Paine, husband of Ruth Paine.

Senator COOPER. He might have done what now?

Mrs. OSWALD. With the husband of Ruth Paine.

Senator COOPER. Why do you say that, did you ever hear him talking about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. He used to talk politics with Mr. Paine. I don't know what they were talking about because at that time I didn't understand English.

Senator COOPER. Did you mean, though, to say that you believed he might have discussed the Cuban policy with Mr. Paine.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; especially after we returned from New Orleans.

Senator COOPER. Why? Why do you make that statement?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because we only saw Mr. Paine once or twice before we went to New Orleans. And there was more opportunity to see Mr. Paine after we came back.

Senator COOPER. But my question is what makes you think he might have talked to Mr. Paine about Cuba?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think, sir; because after returning from New Orleans this was his favorite subject, Cuba, and he was quite--a little bit cracked about it, crazy about Cuba.

Senator COOPER. You mean he talked to you a great deal about it after you came from New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, in New Orleans he used to talk to me endlessly about Cuba, but after we came back he didn't talk to me about it any longer because I was just sick and tired of this.

Mr. DULLES. "He" in this case is your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. I really don't know about what he talked with Mr. Paine. I think that they were talking about politics, that is to say my husband with Mr. Paine because my husband used to tell me afterwards, "Well, he doesn't understand anything about politics." "He is not too strong on politics."

And, therefore, I think they were probably talking with the American political system and the Russian political system and comparisons between them. I think that Mr. Paine could probably tell you more about this than I can.

Senator COOPER. That is all I want to ask for the time being.

Mrs. OSWALD. I think that Mr. Paine knows more about my husband's political attitudes toward the United States than I do.

Mr. RANKIN. You said the FBI asked you whether you could have been mistaken about it being Mr. Nixon that your husband was interested in going and seeing and maybe doing something to with his gun.

Do you know what Mr. Johnson you were asking about?

Let me rephrase the question.

You said the FBI asked you whether you might have been mistaken about Mr. Nixon and whether it might have been Mr. Johnson instead of Mr. Nixon that your husband was interested in doing something to with his gun.

Do you know what Mr. Johnson was being referred to?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; I didn't know who Johnson was. I am ashamed but I never knew his name. I am ashamed myself but I didn't know who Johnson was.

Mr. RANKIN. You didn't know that the FBI was asking about the then Vice President and now President Johnson?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; I never heard of Johnson before he became President.

Mr. DULLES. And you are quite sure----

Mrs. OSWALD. Maybe I am stupid, I don't know.

Mr. DULLES. And you are quite sure that your husband mentioned the name of Nixon to you----

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I am sure it was Nixon.

Mr. DULLES. That morning?