Chapter III: Front Matter (3)

Mr. BELMONT. Yes, sir; we went to the Dallas Police Department and immediately went into action because of what had happened, and there was no time for us to stand on priorities. But we felt we should be of the utmost assistance, and we sent men to the police department to assist in the interview and do anything else we could. This wasn't a time, of course, to sit back and say, "This isn't our job."

Mr. DULLES. I understand.

Mr. BELMONT. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Belmont, just one question. Do you know of any legislation in recent years that might have been introduced in the Congress to make an attack upon the President a Federal offense?

Mr. BELMONT. I do know that there is legislation presently pending.

The CHAIRMAN. Since the assassination?

Mr. BELMONT. Since the assassination.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. But had it been considered in recent years? I know it had at the time of other assassinations, but so far as you know were there any recent legislation to that effect?

Mr. BELMONT. Mr. Chairman, I must plead ignorance. I haven't done research on it, and I just don't know.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Well, we can find that out very easily.

Representative FORD. Mr. Chairman, just the other day in the House of Representatives a bill was approved giving Federal officials the right to take certain action when a chief of state from a foreign country was within the United States; a broadening of their authority when they had a suspicion or they had some reason to believe that an attack was being made on a foreign dignitary.

At the time it went through the House I thought of the same question you just raised, and I wondered whether there were any specific legislative matters pending before any committee on this particular point.

Mr. BELMONT. I am sure there is a pending bill because my recollection is that it was called to our attention--I cannot pinpoint it for you--but I think there is pending legislation now in this matter.

Mr. McCLOY. I noticed in some Law Review article recently reference to the fact that previous bills had been introduced but had gone into the wastebasket.

The CHAIRMAN. That is true.

Mr. McCLOY. In respect of other incidents.

The CHAIRMAN. When the emotion died down.

Mr. McCLOY. When the emotion died down, that is true.

I have some further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you finished, Mr. Stern?

Mr. STERN. I want to get one thing established that came up yesterday. Mr. Belmont, yesterday the Commission was interested in determining, if possible, when Agent Hosty recorded the interviews that he had taken on October 29, November 1, and November 5. He wasn't certain, except that he thought it had been done after the assassination. Have you caused a check to be made on that?

Mr. BELMONT. Yes; we checked with our Dallas office, and they do not have a specific record of when that information was recorded.

Mr. STERN. Was it recorded in substantially the same form in some contemporaneous communication?

Mr. BELMONT. Yes; within a day or two, I think on November 4, if I recall correctly, the fact that Hosty had talked to the neighbor of Mrs. Paine and had located Marina Oswald, was sent in by AIRTEL.

Mr. STERN. You might refer to Commission Exhibit 834, page 9, items 64 and 67, just so the record is straight.

Mr. BELMONT. Item 64 is an AIRTEL from the Dallas office to the headquarters dated October 30, wherein Hosty reported this interview that he had had with the neighbor of Mrs. Paine.

On November 4 the Dallas office reported by AIRTEL the results of his contact with Mrs. Paine on November 1, so that the results of his interviews were incorporated at that time, October 30, November 4, but the actual insert for the report was not prepared until some time later. To the best of Hosty's recollection it was after the 22d and prior to December 2, but he was already on record by these AIRTELS.

Mr. STERN. Thank you, Mr. Belmont.

I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. McCloy.

Mr. McCLOY. I have one or two questions.

Mr. Belmont, you do know the charge has been made by some that Oswald was what is called a secret agent. Do you have any information whatever that would cause you to believe that Oswald was or could have been an agent or an informant of the FBI?

Mr. BELMONT. I have covered that in some considerable detail, Mr. McCloy, and I will make a positive statement that Oswald was not, never was, an agent or an informant of the FBI.

Mr. McCLOY. In the course of your investigation do you have any reason to make you believe that he was an agent of any other country?

Mr. BELMONT. No, sir; we have no reason to believe that he was an agent of any other country.

Mr. McCLOY. Or any other agency of the United States?

Mr. BELMONT. Or any other agency of the United States.

Mr. McCLOY. You said this morning, I believe, or at least I guess Mr. Hosty said, that the assassination of the President and any leads in connection with it are still of constant concern to the FBI.

Do you feel there are any areas as of the present time that you feel at the present time require or justify further investigation other than routine checkups that have not already been undertaken?

Mr. BELMONT. No, sir; frankly, I don't. I will say that from the requests we have received from the Commission, you have explored this most thoroughly. We do not have any unexplored areas in this investigation that should be explored. There are some pending requests that you have made, and we are running them out as rapidly as we can.

Mr. McCLOY. Maybe this isn't a fair question to ask you, but, after all, you have had a long record of criminal investigation, and you have had a long exposure to investigation in this case.

As a result of your investigation do you feel that there is any credible evidence thus far which would support a conclusion or an opinion that the death of the President was the result of a conspiracy or anything other than the act of a single individual?

Mr. BELMONT. No, sir; we have no evidence, and I could support no conclusion that this was other than an act of Oswald.

Mr. McCLOY. Now, the investigation does lead you to the conclusion that he was the President's assassin?

Mr. BELMONT. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever at any time have any connection whatever--you or the agency--have anything to do with the Walker, General Walker, case?

Mr. BELMONT. No, sir; that was a matter handled by the Dallas police. I am drawing on my recollection of it now, but, as I recall it, after the incident, we offered to examine the bullets that were recovered----

Mr. McCLOY. Bullets.

Mr. BELMONT. And the police apparently wanted to retain them, so that we did not conduct the examination of the bullets until subsequent to the assassination itself.

Mr. McCLOY. Until recently.

Mr. BELMONT. No; we had no connection with it, with that investigation.

Mr. McCLOY. In your investigation of the President's assassination, did you have occasion, after the event, to make an investigation of Ruby's background or Ruby's relationship to Oswald?

Mr. BELMONT. Yes, sir; we went into that very thoroughly.

Mr. McCLOY. Have we got all your reports on that?

Mr. BELMONT. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Have you come to any conclusions or opinions in regard to Ruby and his connection with Oswald, if any?

Mr. BELMONT. The reports, of course, speak for themselves. But in summation, we did not come up with anything of a solid nature, that is anything that would stand up to indicate that there was any association between Ruby and Oswald. We had numerous allegations which we ran out extensively and carefully, but there is nothing, no information, that would stand up to show there was an association between them.

Mr. McCLOY. Maybe this is in the record, but do you--by reason of your very close association with this investigation, I venture to ask this question--do you, from your knowledge of the investigation find--was there any evidence in regard to Ruby's propensity for violence before this shooting took place in the police headquarters in Dallas?

Mr. BELMONT. Did we have any information of that character and of that nature?

Mr. McCLOY. Yes; I am not talking before it happened, but as a result of your investigation did you turn up any other indications of any violence on the part of Ruby?

Mr. BELMONT. I hesitate to attempt to evaluate the information that we gathered from hundreds and hundreds of people that we talked to during the investigation of Ruby after the assassination. I just don't feel that I am in a position to render a judgment as to his character or his impulsiveness, the degree of impulsiveness, whether he was capable----

Mr. McCLOY. Whether he was prone to violent action.

Mr. BELMONT. I just don't feel really competent. I have no doubt that a conclusion can be drawn from reports; of course, that was one of the basic issues at the trial.

Representative FORD. Was there any evidence that the FBI found to the effect that Ruby was a Communist?

Mr. BELMONT. No, sir.

Representative FORD. None whatsoever?

Mr. BELMONT. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Was there any evidence found by the FBI to the effect that Ruby was connected with in any way whatsoever so-called rightist groups?

Mr. BELMONT. No, sir; I do not recall anything of that nature.

Mr. McCLOY. No association that you know of as a result of the investigation of Ruby with any foreign government or agency of a foreign government?

Mr. BELMONT. No, sir; you understand, you are asking me questions, and I am replying on the basis of my best recollection, but I am giving you an answer from my knowledge of the case.

Mr. McCLOY. That is what we were seeking, no more than that, because your impressions would be valuable.

Mr. BELMONT. The reason I say that there may be someone we interviewed who made a statement about Ruby and it was run out, and it was found to be false. Congressman Ford, you asked me if he was a Communist. I would say we have no evidence of that.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you feel that in view of the evidence that Oswald was a defector, that he engaged in this Fair Play for Cuba business, that he lied in his communications with the FBI, that Mr. Hosty should have been alerted by locating Oswald in the School Book Depository early in November, that he should have been alerted to informing the Secret Service of that?

Mr. BELMONT. No, sir; I do not. You must take this matter in its proper context. I pointed out to you previously that this man came back from Russia; he indicated that he had learned his lesson, was disenchanted with Russia, and had a renewed concept--I am paraphrasing, a renewed concept--of the American free society.

We talked to him twice. He likewise indicated he was disenchanted with Russia. We satisfied ourselves that we had met our requirement, namely to find out whether he had been recruited by Soviet intelligence. The case was closed.

We again exhibited interest on the basis of these contacts with The Worker, Fair Play for Cuba Committee, which are relatively inconsequential.

His activities for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans, we knew, were not of real consequence as he was not connected with any organized activity there.

The interview with him in jail is not significant from the standpoint of whether he had a propensity for violence.

Mr. McCLOY. That is the Quigley interview you are talking about?

Mr. BELMONT. Yes; it was a self-serving interview.

The visits with the Soviet Embassy were evidently for the purpose of securing a visa, and he had told us during one of the interviews that he would probably take his wife back to Soviet Russia some time in the future. He had come back to Dallas. Hosty had established that he had a job, he was working, and had told Mrs. Paine that when he got the money he was going to take an apartment when the baby was old enough, he was going to take an apartment, and the family would live together.

He gave evidence of settling down. Nowhere during the course of this investigation or the information that came to us from other agencies was there any indication of a potential for violence on his part.

Consequently, there was no basis for Hosty to go to Secret Service and advise them of Oswald's presence. Hosty was alert, as was the Dallas office, to furnish information to Secret Service on the occasion of the President's visit.

It is my recollection that Hosty actually participated in delivering some material to Secret Service himself, and helped prepare a memorandum on another matter that was sent over there. So that most certainly the office was alert. The agent in charge had alerted his agents, even on the morning of the visit, as he had previously done a week or 10 days before the visit.

So that, in answer to your question, I cannot even through the process of going back and seeking to apply this against what happened, justifiably say that Hosty should have given this information under the existing conditions and with the history of this matter, that he was in a position to give it to the Secret Service. Now, most certainly----

Mr. McCLOY. We wish he had.

Mr. BELMONT. Of course.

Representative FORD. Mr. Chairman, I have a call from the floor of the House. I wonder if I could ask Mr. Belmont a question.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, indeed.

Representative FORD. In response to a question by Mr. McCloy, you categorically said that Federal Bureau of Investigation under no circumstances had employed Oswald as an informant, as an agent or in any other way whatsoever.

Mr. BELMONT. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. You would be in a position to know specifically that information?

Mr. BELMONT. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. You also said, as I recall, that you had found no credible information or evidence thus far that Oswald was connected in any way whatsoever with another country as an agent. Is that about what you said or do you wish to reaffirm it in another way?

Mr. BELMONT. I will affirm what you said.

Representative FORD. There is a difference, however, between your knowledge as to whether the FBI had hired Oswald, you can be very categorical about that.

Mr. BELMONT. That is correct.

Representative FORD. You can only----

Mr. BELMONT. Say based on the evidence that we have or which developed or all information that we received, there was no indication that Oswald was in any way connected or within the service of a foreign government.

Representative FORD. But there is a difference in the way you can answer those two questions.

Mr. BELMONT. There is a difference, yes; there is a difference because in the one case we know, in the other case we rely on all the information and evidence available.

Representative FORD. But as far as a foreign government is concerned, you only know what you have been able to find out?

Mr. BELMONT. That is correct, sir.

Representative FORD. There is always the possibility in the second case, involving a foreign government, that something might come up at some other time.

Mr. BELMONT. There is always the possibility. We have no indication of it. There is always the possibility; yes, sir.

Representative FORD. But you cannot be as categorical about the future in the second case as you were in the first case.

Mr. BELMONT. Yes, sir; you are right.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions?

Mr. DULLES. Do you have some more?

Mr. McCLOY. I think I have got all the questions I wanted to ask.

(At this point in the proceedings, Representative Ford leaves the hearing room.)

Mr. DULLES. I have two or three questions.

As you know, Mr. Belmont, there have been a wide variety of rumors that have been spread abroad very particularly with regard to the assassination.

I have before me, just received last night, a book just being published in England, it is coming out in the next day or 2, called "Who Killed Kennedy," by Thomas G. Buchanan, published in London by Secker and Warburg. I have not had an opportunity yet to read the book. I have read a good deal of the background material on which it is based.

I would like to ask though when this book is available to you, and we will make a copy available to you and see that you get one promptly, whether you would have the Bureau read this, an appropriate person in the Bureau familiar with the case or yourself, and possibly give us your views with regard to certain of the allegations here within your particular competence.

Mr. BELMONT. As I understand it, Mr. Dulles, this is probably a compilation of the articles that he wrote in the French press.

Mr. DULLES. Express; yes.

Mr. BELMONT. Which, I believe, we sent over to the Commission as we received them.

Mr. DULLES. That is correct.

Mr. BELMONT. And from my recollection of perusing those articles, they are filled with false statements, innuendoes, incorrect conclusions, misinformation, and certainly what I would term false journalism. In other words, he has stated as fact or as a correct conclusion many things which the Commission's investigation has disproved completely.

We will be glad to read the book and to furnish you with a general comment on it. But to take down each statement in there and go into it would probably result in a critique of 500 pages.

Mr. DULLES. We do not want that. I don't think we need that.

Mr. BELMONT. Where actually many of these allegations have already been resolved by the Commission, I am sure. We will be glad to read it and give you a----

Mr. DULLES. I think that would be useful for the Commission to have, Mr. Chairman. Do you agree?

The CHAIRMAN. Very well; yes. If you find any factual matters in there that contradict your findings, we would expect you to call it to our attention.

Mr. BELMONT. Most certainly, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. But otherwise I don't think we want a review of the book. That is your idea, is it?

Mr. DULLES. Not a review of the book, but if there are allegations there, any evidence you can factually deny, that would be helpful to have it.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you have any record of Buchanan? Do you know anything about Buchanan's background?

Mr. BELMONT. No, sir; I do not recall.

Mr. DULLES. I wish you would check.

Mr. BELMONT. We can send you a letter.

The CHAIRMAN. We have the record.

Mr. McCLOY. He seems to be very much Ivy League, Lawrenceville School and Yale.

Mr. DULLES. He was at one time, I believe, he admitted to being a Communist at one time. He was at one time employed by the Washington Star, I am advised, and I believe, according to the information I have, that he was terminated by the Star some years ago.

Mr. BELMONT. I thought he had been in touch with the Commission.

The CHAIRMAN. He came in, he did come in here, and made a statement which we have recorded. His testimony wasn't taken. He just walked in off the street.

Mr. DULLES. I have one or two more questions, Mr. Chairman.

I believe, Mr. Belmont, that you probably have furnished us already with information with regard to any contacts that Oswald might have had, individuals whom he knew, persons who might have been accused of being accomplices of his, but if there is anybody there or any persons in your file whom Oswald knew who have not been communicated to us, we would certainly like to have them to be sure we have looked into that field exhaustively, anybody who, according to your records, Oswald knew.

Mr. BELMONT. I am sure we have explored that fully, and we have reported it to the Commission fully.

Mr. DULLES. All right; good.

Mr. BELMONT. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. In view of your deep study of the case, have you reached any views of your own or are there any views of the Bureau, as to Oswald's motivation in the act that he committed?

Mr. BELMONT. Again I don't feel competent to give you an answer. There is an indication from the exploration of his background that he wanted to be somebody. He wanted to be known as someone. Whether this caused him to do this terrible thing I don't know. I think if it were possible to peer into Oswald's mind, that would really be the only way you could get your question answered.

Mr. DULLES. Have you and the Bureau made any comparative study of the various assassination attempts and assassinations of other Presidents and people in high authority in this Government to see whether any pattern at all runs through these various attempts other than attempts where there is clearly a plot, as in the case of the attack on President Truman, and probably also in the case of President Lincoln? I am thinking chiefly of the assassination of President McKinley and the attempted assassination of President-elect Roosevelt in 1933.

Mr. BELMONT. No, sir; we have not made a study of that nature. I would imagine that Secret Service has made a study.

Mr. DULLES. They have made a study. I didn't know whether you had made one also.

Mr. BELMONT. No, sir; we have not.

Mr. DULLES. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Belmont, I have here in my hand a sheet that appeared on the newsstands over the weekend. It is supposed to be the National Enquirer. I believe it is out of New York, and it contains a page and a third about the assassination of the President and certain actions of the FBI, and so forth, and for the record I should like to read a portion of it and merely ask you if, in your opinion----

Mr. BELMONT. All right, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And with your knowledge there is any truth to any part of it. You, of course, are acquainted with that paper.

Mr. BELMONT. No, sir; I am not. In fact, someone told me it was, it came from, the Philadelphia Inquirer, and I was shocked that something like that would be in that paper. I found it was not the Philadelphia Inquirer.

(Discussion off the record.)

The CHAIRMAN. I think, in view of the relationship you have had in this whole matter, I would like to have your testimony in the record on it.

Mr. BELMONT. Very good, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. There is no date on this paper, and I am told it appeared in three different days in three different formats with different headlines, but the same item. It is said to be by John Henshaw, Enquirer Washington Bureau Chief.

"Washington--The hottest story making the rounds here is that the U.S. Justice Department prevented the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby BEFORE the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Oswald and the man who killed him, Ruby, were suspected of being partners in crime 7 months before the President's death.

"The incredible details of the story are so explosive that officials won't even answer 'no comment' when queried about it. But the story being discussed by top-level Government officials reveals:

"1. That the Justice Department deliberately kept Oswald and Ruby out of jail before the assassination.

"2. That Dallas cops suspected Oswald of being the gunman and Ruby the paymaster in a plot to murder former Maj. Gen. Edwin A. Walker--7 months before the President was assassinated.

"3. That the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency was using Ruby to recruit commandoes for raids against Castro's Cuba. To prevent this explosive information from being disclosed, the CIA asked the Justice Department to step in and stop the Dallas police from arresting Jack Ruby, as well as Oswald.

"A top-secret document--a letter signed by a high official of the Justice Department--was sent in April 1963 from the Dallas Police Department to Dallas Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry requesting the Dallas police NOT to arrest Oswald and Ruby in connection with the attempted slaying of General Walker.

"After a sniper shot at, but missed, General Walker in Dallas, April 10, 1963, Dallas police suspected that Oswald was the sniper and Ruby the payoff man.

"The cops were set to arrest the pair. But they never got the chance because of the heavy pressure brought to bear by the Justice Department. And so Oswald and Ruby were allowed to remain free. And 7 months later, on last November 22 in Dallas, Oswald was able to kill the President of the United States.

"The top-secret document--a copy of it is reportedly in the hands of the Presidential Commission investigating the assassination--bares a web of intrigue that involves the Federal Bureau of Investigation, along with the Justice Department and the Central Intelligence Agency.

"It is so politically explosive that the Presidential Commission, headed by Supreme Court Chief Justice Earl Warren, has even withheld it from one of its own members, Senator Richard Russell (D., Ga.).

"It is feared that Senator Russell, who leads the South in the fight against the civil rights bill, might use the document as a weapon against the Justice Department and its chief, Attorney General Robert Kennedy, a leader in the fight for civil rights.

"The document--requesting the cops not to arrest Ruby and Oswald--contradicts the FBI report on the assassination and the subsequent murder of Oswald."

My question is, do you have any information that would lead you to believe that any of those allegations are true?

Mr. BELMONT. My answer, sir, is that that is utter fantastic nonsense, and I have no information to indicate that any of the allegations are true.

The CHAIRMAN. I think we had better mark this and introduce it in evidence. There is much more to the article, but it is explanatory of this, but I thought that was sufficiently a direct allegation that we ought to note it in the testimony. So will you give that a number, Mr. Stern.

Mr. STERN. It will be numbered 837.

The CHAIRMAN. 837. It is introduced in evidence as No. 837.

Mr. STERN. May we also have admitted, Mr. Chief Justice, Exhibit No. 836, the letter of March 31, 1964, which Mr. Belmont has identified.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted under that number.

(The documents referred to were marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 836 and 837 and were received in evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything further, gentlemen?

Mr. McCLOY. May I suggest that we get a copy of the paper which does have the date on it. I forget what date it was.

Mr. BELMONT. Mr. Rankin, I understand you have sent it over to us, so we will be glad to answer your letter.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mr. Belmont, we appreciate your cooperation, and we thank you for your courtesy.

(Whereupon, at 12:40 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Wednesday, May 13, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF LT. JACK REVILL

The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on May 13, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Gerald R. Ford; and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Arlen Specter, assistant counsel; and Charles Murray, observer.

The CHAIRMAN. Lieutenant Revill, the purpose of today's hearing is to hear your testimony and that of Detective V. J. Brian with particular regard to alleged conversation with Special Agent James P. Hosty, Jr., of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, claimed to have occurred on November 22, 1963, in the afternoon, and also concerning the facts surrounding the discussion of Commission Exhibits 710 and 711.

What are those--those are the affidavits?

Mr. RANKIN. That is his affidavit and Detective Brian's.

The CHAIRMAN. Those are the affidavits that you made in that regard.

Would you please rise and raise your right hand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you God?

Lieutenant REVILL. I do, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rankin will conduct the examination.

Mr. RANKIN. Lieutenant Revill, will you state your name and place of residence for the record, please?

Mr. REVILL. My name is Jack Revill. I reside at 5617 Madowics, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have an official connection with the police department of Dallas?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. RANKIN. What is that?

Mr. REVILL. I am presently a lieutenant of police of the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. RANKIN. How long have you occupied that position?

Mr. REVILL. I was promoted to lieutenant June 26, 1958.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any particular area of responsibility?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I am presently in charge of the criminal intelligence section.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you been in charge of that section since November 22 of 1963?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. RANKIN. What are the functions of your work in that job?

Mr. REVILL. My unit--our primary responsibility is to investigate crimes of an organized nature, subversive activities, racial matters, labor racketeering, and to do anything that the chief might desire. We work for the chief of police. I report to a captain who is in charge of the special service bureau.

Mr. RANKIN. Who is that?

Mr. REVILL. Capt. Pat Gannaway.

Mr. RANKIN. How long have you reported to him?

Mr. REVILL. In my present capacity?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. REVILL. Since I have been assigned to the criminal intelligence section.

Mr. RANKIN. So that was for all times since and on November 22, 1963?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; this is true.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know James P. Hosty, Jr.?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. RANKIN. How long have you known him?

Mr. REVILL. I have known Jim, Mr. Hosty, since 1959, when I took over the intelligence section.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you see him on November 22?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. RANKIN. Where.

Mr. REVILL. In the basement of the city hall.

Mr. RANKIN. Just before you saw Special Agent Hosty, where had you been?

Mr. REVILL. I had been at the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you do there?

Mr. REVILL. We conducted a systematic search of the building, evacuated the people working in the building, and took names, addresses, and phone numbers of all of these people before they were permitted to leave.

Mr. RANKIN. Was anyone working with you there?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Who?

Mr. REVILL. Numerous people.

Mr. RANKIN. I see. Was Detective Brian with you there?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir. I had taken Detective Brian with me from the Trade Mart, Dallas Trade Mart, upon hearing of the shots being fired at Mr. Kennedy. I took Detective Brian and two other officers assigned to my unit, Detective R. W. Westphal and Detective Tarver, O. J. Tarver.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you come back to the police department?

Mr. REVILL. By automobile.

Mr. RANKIN. By car?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Was anyone with you?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir, I had Detectives Brian, Tarver, and Westphal.

Mr. RANKIN. They were all in the car with you?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. And which way did you enter the building?

Mr. REVILL. The Main Street ramp into the basement of the city hall.

Mr. RANKIN. About what time of the day?

Mr. REVILL. It must have been about 2:45, 2:50.

Mr. RANKIN. All of these officers were with you?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did you see Special Agent Hosty?

Mr. REVILL. If I might explain that, I followed Mr. Hosty into the basement of the city hall. He drove into the basement, parked his car, I did the same, and Mr. Hosty departed from his car, ran over to where I was standing, Detective Brian and I.

The other two officers, Westphal and Tarver, as well as I recall, had remained in the rear talking to some other officers. I don't know who they were. At that time everything was mass confusion, and we were all upset.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you explain to the Commission where you parked the car with reference to the point where you saw Agent Hosty?

Mr. REVILL. I got out of my car, and we have two attendants assigned to the basement, two Negro attendants, and one of these individuals parked my vehicle for me, I don't know where he parked it. But as I got out of the car, Mr. Hosty ran toward me----

Mr. RANKIN. Now, about the parking, excuse me.

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that a part of the basement area of the police department?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. RANKIN. All right; proceed.

Mr. REVILL. And Mr. Hosty ran over to me and he says, "Jack"--now as I recall these words--"a Communist killed President Kennedy."

I said, "What?"

He said, "Lee Oswald killed President Kennedy."

I said, "Who is Lee Oswald?"

He said, "He is in our Communist file. We knew he was here in Dallas." At that time Hosty and I started walking off, and Brian, as well as I recall, sort of stayed back, and as we got onto the elevator or just prior to getting on the elevator Mr. Hosty related that they had information that this man was capable of this, and at this I blew up at him, and I said, "Jim"----

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say in regard to his being capable?

Mr. REVILL. This was it. They had--"We had information that this man was capable"----

Mr. RANKIN. Of what?

Mr. REVILL. Of committing this assassination. This is what I understood him to say.

Mr. RANKIN. Are those his exact words?

Mr. REVILL. As well as I recall. Give him the benefit of the doubt; I might have misunderstood him. But I don't believe I did, because the part about him being in Dallas, and the fact that he was a suspected Communist, I understand by the rules of the Attorney General they cannot tell us this, but the information about him being capable, I felt that we had taken a part in the security measures for Mr. Kennedy, and if such, if such information was available to another law enforcement agency, I felt they should have made it known to all of us, and I asked Hosty where he was going at that time. By this time we were on the elevator and he said he was going up to homicide and robbery to tell Captain Fritz the same thing. I said, "Do you know Captain Fritz?" and he said he had never met him. I said, "All right, I will take you up and introduce you to Captain Fritz." So Detective Brian and I and Hosty went to the third floor of the city hall and went to Captain Fritz' office, the homicide and robbery bureau. We didn't see Captain Fritz, he may or may not have been there. His office door was closed.

Mr. DULLES. What time of the day, could you give me the approximate time?

Mr. REVILL. Between 2:30 and 3 o'clock, and I have the reason for saying this because of the typing of this report here. Our secretary got off at 4 o'clock.

Mr. DULLES. And Chief Curry had not yet returned, had he?

Mr. REVILL. I don't know where he was.

Mr. DULLES. You didn't know about that?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about this to Captain Fritz?

Mr. REVILL. I did not talk to Captain Fritz, as I said, I didn't see him. I introduced Mr. Hosty to Lieutenant Ted Wells, who is one of the lieutenants assigned to the homicide and robbery bureau and also present at that time was another special agent, Mr. Bookhout, and Hosty, there was confusion within this office, so Brian and I, after introducing Mr. Hosty to Wells, left and went back to the special service bureau office.

Mr. RANKIN. And you didn't say anything to the inspector about it?

Mr. REVILL. The inspector?

Mr. RANKIN. Lieutenant Wells.

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. RANKIN. You didn't tell him this important information?

Mr. REVILL. Hosty was going up to tell him the same thing.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you that?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; he told me that.

Mr. RANKIN. And Hosty told you then that he was going up to tell him that they knew he was capable of being the assassin?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; being at that time I was out of touch with everything, being in the building, I had put no connection between the shooting of Tippit and the President.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know that Oswald had been arrested?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; at that time I did not.

Mr. RANKIN. You just knew about the someone by the name of Lee, didn't you?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; Lee. And this was told to me by a colored employee of the School Book Depository. Myself and Lieutenant Frank Dyson took charge of the search of the building and we must have had 75 or 80 men in the building assisting in this search. I talked to a Negro----

Mr. DULLES. Were you in charge of that?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I was in charge of that phase of the search. I talked to a Negro by the name of Givens, and we had handled this person in the past for marijuana violations and I recognized him and in talking to him I asked him if he had been on the sixth floor, and as well as I recall, and Detective Brian was present at this same time he said, yes, that he had observed Mr. Lee, over by this window. Well, I asked him who Mr. Lee was, he said, "It is a white boy." He didn't know his full name. So, I turned this Givens individual over to one of our Negro detectives and told him to take him to Captain Fritz for interrogation, and while going to the city hall, or the police station I passed this detective and Givens, and they came into the homicide and robbery bureau shortly after Hosty and I did, so I am sure Captain Fritz did talk to Mr. Givens.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you learn that Oswald had been arrested?

Mr. REVILL. I really don't know, sir. Because time, we were all shocked that this thing had happened in our city and I personally felt that maybe a sense of responsibility, maybe we could have done more to prevent this thing. I just don't know when I heard that he had been arrested.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know it by the time you went to Lieutenant Wells' office?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I did not. He may have been in the office at that time.

Mr. RANKIN. You didn't know that Oswald was already in the police department?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I did not. I had been in this building since word came of the shots being fired until about 2:30, 2:35, and at that time I decided that my unit could possibly do more at our office where we kept all of our files, cataloging these people, the suspects that were running through my mind at that time. So, I was, I put out a call for all of the intelligence unit personnel to meet me at the office and I got no reply to this because they were all up in the special service bureau. We had been assigned to the Trade Mart, and two or three of my officers had taken into custody four or five of these picket carriers, and we did this more for protection than anything else because after the word came of the assassination, well, I am afraid they would have been mobbed, and they were all up in the special service bureau booking these prisoners at the time, and I decided we would stop by the special service bureau office, to report back to my captain and see if there was something we could do there. And as I pulled into the basement this conversation took place with Mr. Hosty.

Mr. RANKIN. And the particular words about Oswald being capable of being an assassin those were told you by Agent Hosty in the elevator?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; either just outside the elevator and as we got on. He never mentioned this again because I guess I lost my temper at him for withholding this type of information.

Mr. RANKIN. I see. Did you do anything about losing your temper, did you say anything?

Mr. REVILL. No; Jim Hosty and I are friends, and this has hurt me that I have involved Hosty into this thing, because he is a good agent, he is one of the agents there that we can work with; that has been most cooperative in the past, and I worked with him just like he is one of us.

Mr. RANKIN. You went to the third floor on the elevator?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Who else went with you?

Mr. REVILL. Detective Brian and Hosty, the elevator was--had several people on it. I don't recall who they were.

Mr. RANKIN. Was Detective Brian on that elevator?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; he was.

Mr. RANKIN. At that same time?

Mr. REVILL. He went to the third floor with me.

Mr. RANKIN. And you are sure Agent Hosty was on the elevator with you?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; he was.

Mr. RANKIN. And you are sure you were on the elevator?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, will you tell us exactly what you said to Hosty and also what he said to you?

Mr. REVILL. After hearing about the information that they were purported to have had----

Mr. RANKIN. Have you told us all the information that Hosty told you?

Mr. REVILL. As well as I recall; yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, did you say anything to him about it?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. What?

Mr. REVILL. I asked him why he had not told us this, and the best, my recollection is that he said he couldn't. Now, what he meant by that I don't know. Because in the past our relations had been such that this type of information, it surprised me they had not, if they had such information he had not brought it or hadn't made it available to us.

Mr. RANKIN. And you are certain you went up there on the elevator together?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; took him to the third floor and introduced him to Lieutenant Wells.

Mr. RANKIN. Are you sure you didn't go up the stairs together.

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; we went to the third floor on the elevator.

Mr. RANKIN. You are positive?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; because we caught the elevator in the basement, and there would have been no reason to walk up the stairs.

Mr. RANKIN. If Agent Hosty said you went up the stairs rapidly together, that would be untrue?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; this would be untrue.

Mr. DULLES. Did you go in that same driveway that the car went in that was to take Oswald out?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. That driveway; and you took that elevator right to the left as you went in there?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; we go straight into the doors into the elevator that goes up to the third floor.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. REVILL. Third and fourth floor.

Representative FORD. May I ask a question to reconstruct this a bit? Both Detective Brian and yourself came in one car?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. And you had two other officers with you?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. More or less the same time Mr. Hosty came in?

Mr. REVILL. We followed Mr. Hosty into the basement.

Mr. DULLES. Each in a car?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; he was in a car and we were in mine.

Representative FORD. Your first contact with Mr. Hosty was in the basement there?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. What did he say there?

Mr. REVILL. He come running up to me, and he said, "Jack, a Communist killed President Kennedy." I said, "What? What are you talking about?" He said, "Lee Harvey Oswald killed President Kennedy," and at that I said "Who is Lee Harvey Oswald?" And then he told me about him having him in their security files, and then that, "We had information that he was capable of this." By "we" I assumed he meant the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Representative FORD. Then Brian, Hosty, and yourself walked to the elevator?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. And the three of you took the elevator up to the third floor?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. It is about 10 feet as I remember it.

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; it is more than that.

Mr. DULLES. It is a different elevator. It is not the one that take prisoners down?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; it is the swinging doors, you go through the swinging doors.

Mr. DULLES. It is another elevator?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. At what point in the sequence did you blow up, as you say?

Mr. REVILL. When he told me about the capability. By blowing up----

Representative FORD. Was that standing in the basement near the car or was it over toward the elevator?

Mr. REVILL. We were walking over toward the elevator during this conversation and as far as blowing up, this is semantics. I wanted to know why they had not given us this information.

Representative FORD. What is his reaction to that?

Mr. REVILL. "We couldn't." I do not know what he meant by that.

Representative FORD. When you use words like "We couldn't" that "Oswald was a Communist" this is what I am trying to find out. You mean these are the precise words he said or are these your interpretations of what he said?

Mr. REVILL. The time involved it could be my interpretation, to give him the benefit of the doubt, because as I said Hosty is a friend of mine, and the last thing I wanted to do was to cause this man any trouble, because of our relations in the past.

Representative FORD. Have you ever had any doubt in the interval between that time and now that what your recollection is is accurate or inaccurate, fair or unfair?

Mr. REVILL. As far as I am concerned I have; this report is honest, and it was made within an hour after he made the thing. And since this assassination I have gone over in my mind could I have misunderstood him. I sometimes wish or hoped that I have. But this is in essence what he said to me. It might not be exactly the "we's" the "I's" but in essence it is what Mr. Hosty said.

Representative FORD. At one point as I recall your testimony, you said Hosty said that Oswald was a Communist. A few minutes after that testimony I think you said that Hosty suspected he was a Communist. Now, did you say that deliberately or did you just----

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; if I said that I was wrong.

Representative FORD. Was that just confusion?

Mr. REVILL. As I mentioned earlier he come hurrying up to me and he said, "Jack, a Communist killed the President." I said, "What?" He said, "Lee Harvey Oswald, a Communist killed the President," and then he went into the fact that they had known he was there, and then at the conclusion of our, not the conclusion because we continued to discuss this thing going up on the elevator, he made the statement that they had information that he was capable of this. He might have said probably or possibly capable of it, I don't recall, because in Dallas that day, the town died, and I know I was sick that this thing happened in my city, and I felt that maybe we could have done something else to prevent it.

Mr. DULLES. You stress the word "capable", that sticks in your mind, does it?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. He didn't say might have done it?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; capable.

Mr. DULLES. Normally would information of this kind have passed to you directly from the FBI or through the Secret Service in the event--of course, there hadn't been other Presidential visits, I guess, so there was no precedent but I was wondering in the case of a Presidential visit would it normally have come to you directly from the Secret Service rather than directly from the FBI?

Mr. REVILL. Well, in the past Mr. Kennedy had visited Mr. Rayburn there and this information had never been made known to us and usually the information we got from the FBI and you have got to realize the relations are good, was on a personal basis, working with Mr. Hosty and the other agent assigned to their security section and men assigned to their criminal section, it was a share and share alike thing because I have 11 men, and we just augmented their force really with the information we gathered.

Mr. DULLES. Had you had a meeting with the FBI, a general meeting, to go over security problems prior to this time, prior to the President's visit?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I personally had taken part in no meetings.

Mr. DULLES. With the FBI?

Mr. REVILL. With the FBI.

Mr. DULLES. Or Secret Service?

Mr. REVILL. Or Secret Service.

Mr. DULLES. Why was this?

Mr. REVILL. This I do not know. This was handled at a higher level. It is my understanding meetings were held and my captain who is my immediate supervisor was involved in these meetings but----

Mr. DULLES. You were not present at these meetings?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. DULLES. But the meetings you think were held?

Mr. REVILL. This is my understanding; yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Lieutenant Revill, have you seen the original of that Exhibit 709?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that the report that you referred to when you were answering questions?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I brought a copy.

Mr. RANKIN. And Congressman Ford?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; there was just one copy made of this and this is the copy I retained. The original went to Chief Curry. And on this, Chief Curry called me and he would like me to swear that this was a true and correct statement, and this I did.

Mr. RANKIN. By that you are referring to the statement sworn to and subscribed before me this 7th day of April 1964?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, will you tell us how you happened to make this report, Exhibit 709?

Mr. REVILL. Why I made the report?

Mr. RANKIN. How did it happen that you made it?

Mr. REVILL. After Mr. Hosty had related these circumstances to me, and after taking him to the third floor, I reported this incident to my captain, Captain Gannaway.

Mr. RANKIN. When was this?

Mr. REVILL. Within minutes after I left Mr. Hosty at the homicide and robbery bureau.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to him?

Mr. REVILL. I told him what had happened, what had transpired.

Mr. RANKIN. Just describe what you said to him.

Mr. REVILL. About meeting Mr. Hosty in the basement?

Mr. RANKIN. Just tell us what you said.

Mr. REVILL. About Mr. Hosty, following Mr. Hosty in the basement, that he came up to me, and stated that a Communist had killed the President, and that a Lee Harvey Oswald, they had him in their security files, and that they knew he was in Dallas, and that he was capable, that they had information he was capable of this. To this----

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about what you have said?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I don't recall. I might have.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't recall that at all?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your captain ask you whether you said anything about that?

Mr. REVILL. I don't recall him asking me that; no, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything to you about it?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; he did. He told me to put this on paper.

Mr. RANKIN. That is all he said?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; and to which I told him that I hated to do that because of Mr. Hosty, that he might have been stating a personal opinion. He said, "You put it on paper and give it to me and I will take it to Chief Curry," and this I did.

Within 30 minutes to an hour after the thing happened.

Mr. RANKIN. Neither one of you said anything about this being strange that Agent Hosty would say anything like this?

Mr. REVILL. I do not recall, sir.