Chapter XLV: Section 51: 135, entitled "Denial of passports to members of Communist (15)

Secretary DILLON. Well, this is just the number of people. It does not include in this figure any purchases of automatic data processing equipment. It just includes the study I mentioned. There are funds for a new armored car, various funds for improving the intrusion detection at the White House, and lighting at the White House. There is no automatic system now. If anyone breaks through the fence at night, nobody knows it unless someone should see them. They have developed such systems and the Secret Service would like to get one installed, so if anyone broke through, a bell rings automatically, and they know someone is on the grounds, and they can take action accordingly. Also, they would like emergency lighting that would be hidden behind various trees or behind the wall so that if someone broke through at a place, the lights would go on automatically and the person would be seen. Then there is just miscellaneous equipment that goes with increased staff, such as automobiles, radios, travel and transportation that goes with more staff, and so forth.

I mentioned some of the things briefly that they intend to do. I mentioned the PRS program, and ADP study. These special agents in the field I think we have covered pretty well. They have clearly in here a number of things they have to do, which there certainly is plenty of. In addition to that--I mentioned the pool. In addition to that we have made arrangements with the Department of Agriculture and the General Services Administration has put the funds in their budget, to get a new training facility. All we have now is a pistol range out at the Arboretum, and this new one will have classrooms, pistol range, and a place where they can practice automotive protection on a practice road. This will be out at Beltsville at the Agricultural Station out there. It is very useful. There are no funds for that in the plan.

Mr. McCLOY. May I just ask you about the armored car, Mr. Secretary. Is that to transport the President?

Secretary DILLON. Yes; that is right. A protected car, a second one. One was fixed for the Government free by the Ford Motor Co., but our guess is that it cost the Ford Motor Co. somewhere between $175,000 and $200,000 to do this, and it didn't cost the Secret Service anything, although there was some research work done on the glass and armor by the Defense Department. This was combined with research work they needed for their own use, to develop protective glass and armor to use in helicopters in Vietnam. They split the cost. It cost about $30,000. So I think they assigned $15,000 of it to this project. But it was paid by the Defense Department. That is the only cost on that one. But I think the companies think that the Government should buy the new car.

Mr. McCLOY. We had some testimony here in connection with the assassination where it was developed that the access within the car to the body of the President became very important. In the car in which the President was assassinated there was a bar behind the front seat making it very difficult if not impossible for the Secret Service man who was operating from the front seat to get to the body of the President, and we were strongly of the view that cars that should be hereafter designed should have freedom of access. Either the man should be in the jump seat or there should be means by which you could get, the Secret Service man could get to the body of the President in case of a threat of an attack, and I think it is likely we will mention that in the report. But it seemed to me this is something to bear in mind in connection with the design of a new armored car.

Secretary DILLON. That would apply to an open car.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes.

Secretary DILLON. It wouldn't apply I think to a fully----

Mr. McCLOY. Fully armored; no. That is right.

Secretary DILLON. Closed car.

Mr. McCLOY. Usually on those motorcades you like to be seen.

Secretary DILLON. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you covered your planning document, then, Mr. Secretary?

Secretary DILLON. I think that covers this.

Mr. McCLOY. May I ask a question at this point? I have a date at the White House at 1 o'clock, not with the President, but with Mr. Bundy, who wants to talk with me.

How long do you think we will be with the Secretary and will we resume after lunch?

Mr. RANKIN. I was hoping to get through. I presume he was hoping we would.

Secretary DILLON. I would like to if we could. I have to leave tomorrow to go to Japan.

Mr. McCLOY. Well, would it interrupt you if I ask a few questions?

Mr. RANKIN. No; go ahead.

The CHAIRMAN. Ask what questions you want?

Mr. McCLOY. You testified, Mr. Secretary, you felt with these additions that the Secret Service would be competent to cope with the added requirements for the protection of the President which have occurred.

In testifying to that effect, do you include--you include the investigative services of your own which are quite apart, as I understand it, from the information that you may gather from other agencies?

Secretary DILLON. That is correct; yes.

Mr. McCLOY. We have had the thought that perhaps the Protective Research Section or Division of your organization wasn't as well equipped as it should have been nor as it might have been presumably for the purely preventive investigative work.

Do you feel that with this new plan of yours, that that would, be adequately taken care of?

Secretary DILLON. Yes; I do. It was not equipped, I think, adequately in two ways. First, it did not, as is clearly shown by the events in Dallas, receive information on enough dangerous people. At least, they didn't receive the information on Lee Oswald.

So that what is required is the development of criteria, better criteria, that can be circulated to law enforcement agencies generally, and which will insure that adequate information comes in. We are making progress there.

I think you have already seen a document with some criteria that were developed, which has been circulated in Washington. A similar document has now been circulated by the Secret Service Chief to all special agents asking them to write a briefer but somewhat similar letter to all chiefs of police, sheriffs, and State police in their localities which asks them to furnish any such information to the local Secret Service agent. That is being disseminated now throughout the country. It will be completed within the next 6 weeks or so.

In addition, we have established an interagency committee which has as one of its jobs the development of better criteria that will really result in getting the kind of information we want without swamping us. If we are too broad in our criteria and we get a million names, obviously nothing can work.

This committee is holding its first formal meeting next week. It has representatives of the President's Office of Science and Technology, of the Department of Defense, which is the Advanced Research Projects outfit, of the CIA, an individual who is highly competent in their file section and who understands the setting up of complex files and retrieval, that sort of business, and four people from PRS, the PRS head inspector, Mr. Thacker, the head of the research and development, Mr. Bouck, the head of the files section, Mr. Young, and Mr. Stoner, who is now handling the liaison job.

There will also be, although the individual has not yet been named, a representative of the FBI, and with that I think that we will be able to develop criteria that will both be useful to us and be an improvement on criteria that was so far developed with the help of outside consultants.

Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Secretary, the impression has been gained, I think, by the Commission that perhaps too great emphasis has been directed to the mere investigation of the threat, of the particular individual, the crank, or the fellow that sends the poison food or the threatening letter, and perhaps not enough in a broader scope, recognizing, of course, that you can't be too broad without defeating your own purpose, but that there are perhaps groups or other areas of ferment that could provoke an attack quite without the threat. Would you comment on that?

Secretary DILLON. Yes; one of the criteria that is presently out is meant to cover individuals who have threatened bodily harm to any high Government official, with the idea that threat might be switched and visited upon the President.

That would have worked in this particular case in Dallas if that had been a specific criterion on at that time, which it wasn't. We are just talking about threats to the President. So I think that was one obvious case.

We hope that this committee would be able to possibly come up with other groups that can be identified that would fit into this without bringing in too many names.

There is one that may or may not work out. I just cite this as an example. People with bad conduct records in the Marine Corps for some reason have had a very bad record thereafter and there is quite a connection of crime with that class of individual.

It may be that it would even be worthwhile, if it is not too large, to cover this. Why that is so, nobody has quite figured out. I think the eye was focused on them because of this event in Dallas, but then it was discovered that this group has been involved in an awful lot of other crimes of violence.

Mr. DULLES. As you read the Oswald life story, it looks as though he was going into the Marines as a kind of escape.

Secretary DILLON. It could have been.

Mr. DULLES. What you say is very interesting in that connection.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you excuse us just a moment until we see if we can finish up.

Secretary DILLON. I would think you might want to put into the record at this point a copy of the memorandum that I mentioned from Mr. Rowley to the special agents asking them to send letters to the local law enforcement institutions.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes. Mr. Secretary, I ask you to examine the memorandum dated August 26, from Chief Rowley and ask you if that, with the attachment, is the memorandum that you just described?

Secretary DILLON. That is. Fine. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, I ask leave to give this document that the Secretary has just referred to the next number in order and offer it in evidence as part of this examination.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1053-C, for identification and received in evidence.)

Secretary DILLON. There is one other item--you asked whether there is anything else in general. We felt that the Secret Service did not have adequate regularized scientific advice. They got some--they have been getting it over the years from time to time from the President's office of Science and Technology, but we tried to regularize that. I have worked out an arrangement with Dr. Hornig and written him a letter which embodies that arrangement so that they would have their services constantly available to the Secret Service and would give certain specific advice; first, keeping the Secret Service informed of scientific developments of possible use in providing protection for the President, etc.; advising or arranging for scientific advice to the Secret Service in connection with specific problems of Presidential protection as they may arise; and reviewing the technical aspects of the protective operations of the Secret Service and its development program, and assisting it in establishing priorities and schedules for introducing technical and scientific improvements. I have an answer from Dr. Hornig saying they would be glad to carry this out and saying that he concurs in my judgment that the increasingly complex nature of Presidential protection requires that the Secret Service have access to the best scientific advice and that they are glad to take on this job.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Secretary, I will ask you if the exchange of letters, dated August 31, between you and Mr. Hornig are the copies that I have just given you?

Secretary DILLON. That is right.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, I ask leave----

Mr. DULLES. Just for the record, I wonder if he would identify Mr. Hornig. I think we know, but possibly----

Secretary DILLON. Oh, yes; Dr. Hornig is Special Assistant to the President for Science and Technology.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, I ask leave to give this document the next number in order and offer it in evidence as part of the examination.

The CHAIRMAN. It might be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 1053-D for identification, and was received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Secretary, would you just briefly tell us without getting into any classified matters or matters that are not properly to be revealed because of the effects they might have on the protection of the President, why the Secret Service would need a scientific adviser?

Secretary DILLON. Well, I think this is because they do a number of things. First, they need it in the communications field. There are all sorts of advances there, and they have been assuring or working to assure the security of the communications of the President. In addition there are all sorts of new developments in the form of protective devices that are being developed all the time, better forms of bulletproof glass, better forms of protection of that kind, new types of protection against access. For instance, there is under development, I understand, a sort of a radar type of fence so that you can see if a person comes through a certain area without there being any fence there.

They are developing, working on the development of other protection devices. They have had very substantial progress recently, I understand, in the detection of weapons that someone might be carrying, devices that are more effective. This is something people have tried to develop, I guess, for a long time. Apparently they are having some success. It is that sort of thing that is very necessary.

And then in addition this field of computer technology is highly scientific and complex, and I think that the scientific adviser is in an excellent position to be sure that the Secret Service has the very best advice in trying to identify their needs and develop the machines for those needs.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Secretary, it has been suggested to the Commission that it might be of assistance to you and other Secretaries of the Treasury and the Secret Service to have someone acting as Special Assistant to the Secretary of the Treasury, having supervision, under your direction, of the Secret Service in its various activities, both protection of the President and otherwise. Do you think that that would be of help or would it not?

Secretary DILLON. Well, I am not sure. You see, we have an Assistant Secretary, and I should think he probably would be able to do it as adequately as having another special assistant.

We also have a Special Assistant for Law Enforcement Coordination who coordinates the general work of all our law enforcement agencies and works with outside agencies on overall law enforcement problems.

Probably of interest is that the Treasury Department, I think, has more law enforcement officials working for it than any other agency of Government. It is a very large law enforcement organization, although there are a number of separate organizations that work in different fields.

So we already have this. I think that it probably can be made tighter and should be made tighter.

One aspect of this matter, I think, is the advent of computers, of course, which is very recent and has changed what can be done effectively in this PRS. I think that should be done anyway. One aspect of this matter that probably hasn't had as close and detailed supervision as we may feel appropriate now is the White House detail. It has always operated over the years in very close contact with the President and has operated in a slightly different manner with different Presidents, depending on their wishes.

And it has been felt that as long as they were doing an adequate job, that it was pretty hard to come in and tell them exactly what they should do on a day-by-day basis because the President might not want them to do that sort of thing.

It is a very complex and personal assignment here that is a little different than any other law enforcement agency, and I certainly think it should be followed more closely--gone into in more detail--from the top level of the Treasury Department probably than it has, but even if it is, we are still going to have this problem that we won't be able to tell the President exactly what he should do in each case. So there never will be that close sort of supervision of day-to-day operations of the White House detail--it wouldn't be effective anyway--that there would be in another police operation.

Mr. RANKIN. After the assassination, you did have Mr. Carswell take over certain work in this area, did you not?

Secretary DILLON. Yes; Mr. Carswell is my special assistant, in my own office. He is a lawyer by profession and training. He has had investigative experience, 3 years in Naval Intelligence on the active side of it, and so he has some knowledge of this whole type of operation, and I felt in view of this investigation, in view of the work that had been done, it was important to have someone with legal experience that was close to me, that had immediate access any minute to me working on the matter. Then while this thing was running along, they would get to me at any time, and I could ask questions, they would bring matters to me, we could handle this matter of being sure that a proper long-range plan was developed, and that the whole effort in the Secret Service was organized as well as possible. That is why I asked Mr. Carswell, as part of his work for me, to undertake this special assignment, which he has done, and I think done very well.

Mr. RANKIN. It has been suggested to the Commission that it might be helpful if the National Security Council or some Cabinet level committee would help to supervise in this area of Presidential protection. Do you have any comments you care to make?

Secretary DILLON. Yes; I think that would be helpful because in relationship with the President, if there are questions of what is the proper protection, I think a group of the Cabinet would have a stronger voice, and also having a group, the President would be more sure that this was not just one man's ideas, that it would be helpful.

I am not quite sure about the National Security Council as such because as I recall, the President himself is the Chairman of that, so he would be advising himself, and I suppose this would be a group to advise the President.

Mr. DULLES. We thought there might be certain advantages in that because if you prescribe things for the President to do, and he doesn't want to do them, they don't get done in the field of protection.

Secretary DILLON. That is right. Then if you describe it in the meeting at which he was present, that might be well.

The CHAIRMAN. I suppose, Mr. Secretary, also if a committee of that kind was composed of the Secretary of the Treasury, Secretary of Defense, Secretary of State, and the Attorney General, that you would have on that committee the men who had all of the agencies that would of necessity have to be coordinated in order to bring all the work into focus.

Secretary DILLON. Yes, and the Central Intelligence Agency.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Secretary DILLON. One thing about the National Security Council is that neither the Secretary of the Treasury nor the Attorney General are members of the National Security Council by law.

The Secretary of the Treasury has been asked by the Presidents to sit with the National Security Council for some years, practically since its beginning.

The Attorney General has sat with it during the last few years, but I don't know whether that will or will not continue into the future. So there is a certain problem there.

If this assignment is given by law to the National Security Council, and some other President comes along that doesn't ask the Secretary of the Treasury or the Attorney General to sit with it, the two people who are probably most concerned wouldn't have any part in this.

Mr. DULLES. It would have to provide that in all matters relating to Presidential security, of course, they will be present. One way of doing it, I would say.

Secretary DILLON. Yes; there should be some such provision; otherwise I see some advantages as you say.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Secretary, are you familiar with the method of selection of the Secret Service personnel?

Secretary DILLON. Only somewhat. They do get young men who meet their qualifications. They do hire them at GS-7 and they stay there for 1 year. If they have a year of satisfactory service, they are promoted two grades. Then if they have 2 more years of satisfactory service, they are promoted another double jump to GS-11.

These individuals do not have the legal qualifications that some other law enforcement agencies such as the FBI require, where you have to be a lawyer or an accountant, because they do other kinds of investigative work and that wasn't thought to be necessary in the case of the Secret Service.

But the Secret Service has felt, and I have inquired into this, that they have no difficulty in getting young men of the highest type to come and to take these jobs under the present setup.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have a printed or written list of the various qualifications that you seek in regard to the Secret Service?

Secretary DILLON. I don't--I am not aware of that. There probably is such a list; yes.

Mr. RANKIN. If you have such a list will you please supply it to us?

Secretary DILLON. Yes; I will be glad to.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, I would like to ask leave to give the next number of exhibits to that document once supplied and make it part of the record.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1053-E for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Secretary, are you familiar in a general way with the investigation that the Commission has been making with regard to this matter?

Secretary DILLON. Yes; In a general way, I have followed it through Mr. Carswell, who has followed it more closely, and through the Secret Service, so I am generally aware of it.

Mr. RANKIN. And are you generally aware of the investigation in connection with the assassination, the entire matter?

Secretary DILLON. Oh, yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you made any inquiry in the Secret Service to determine whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald was ever an agent of that Service?

Secretary DILLON. Yes. I heard rumors of this type of thing very early, and I asked the direct question of Chief Rowley and was informed that he never had any connection with the Secret Service.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of any evidence in regard to Lee Harvey Oswald being an agent of any part of the government?

Secretary DILLON. I am not aware of any evidence myself in that way, but I don't think I necessarily would be fully competent in that.

Mr. RANKIN. But you have never heard of any such evidence?

Secretary DILLON. I have never heard it.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of any area of the investigation of the Commission that you would like to suggest that we do more than we have insofar as you are familiar with it?

Secretary DILLON. No. As far as I know, the investigation has been very thorough.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of any credible evidence that would lead you or anyone to believe that there was a conspiracy, foreign or domestic, involved in the assassination of President Kennedy?

Secretary DILLON. No. From all the evidence I have seen, this was the work of one deranged individual.

Mr. RANKIN. And who would that be?

Secretary DILLON. Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of any evidence in regard to any connection between Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald?

Secretary DILLON. No, no.

Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything that you would like to call to the attention of the Commission at this time that we should know or that we should cover?

Secretary DILLON. No; I think we have covered my area of competence pretty thoroughly this morning. I can't think of anything else.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles?

Mr. DULLES. Doug, in the field that in the Commission here we have described as the preventive intelligence field; that is, trying to identify beforehand the individuals or the type of individuals who might be a danger to the President, have you ever thought of any possible division of responsibility and of work between the Secret Service and the FBI to define more clearly which each should do in that field?

Secretary DILLON. Well, my own feeling is that the agency that handles the actual work of deciding who the individuals are that the Secret Service should watch out for, which is the PRS, would function much better and would strengthen the Service if it works as it does now as part of the whole Secret Service operation, and working very closely with the people who are on the White House detail and not having to be involved in a liaison operation somewhere else.

So I think our problem is to strengthen this PRS, and I think that this long-range plan is a good beginning.

I don't think it is necessarily an end because as soon as we develop the automated machinery that we need, then we will know a little better, and we may need some people to make full use of that.

But this is enough to get it underway and all you can use, I think, well, for that purpose at present.

I would think that there is a liaison problem which exists whenever you have liaison with anyone, whether it is within your department or without, as long as it is a separate organization. And I think there has been clearly a problem of inadequate liaison with other Government agencies.

It is much better now. We have already taken steps. And additional steps of assigning specific liaison officers will help. But I think this is something that has just got to be worked out continually at all levels to make it work. So the problem is not unique to this situation; it affects all intergovernmental relations.

Mr. DULLES. Today with the Communist Party and with rightist groups and we have more and more groups--we have always had them, but we seem to have more than others which might breed up elements of danger--is there any part of that you would like to turn over to anybody else or----

Secretary DILLON. Well, I think the identification of groups that are likely to be dangerous as groups would probably more likely fall on the FBI because they study the background of these groups and they are aware of them and try to penetrate them, and so forth.

So I think that from that point of view, they would certainly be the purveyor, the first purveyor of the information that is needed and the ones who would have the responsibility of signaling to the Secret Service that this is a dangerous group and to the best of our knowledge these are its members. Some of the members would probably be subterranean and might not be known. And it would be important that they pass on that information on the individuals.

The Secret Service I think would be more concerned in dealing with--trying to protect against the actual individuals.

I think that probably on the basis of thinking of something that would be sort of an international plot, Communist Party plot, or something like that, I think you probably need all arms of the Government working on that.

We can't say that Secret Service can do it alone. Central Intelligence Agency might get wind of it anywhere in the world or FBI would have to use all its resources. Just to beat back something like that you would need the combined resources of whatever you have got.

I think there is sort of a greater thrust of continuing responsibility obviously on the FBI for following these groups, as you call them. For following individuals which may come to their notice because they were somewhat deranged or did something bad at one time, they would then pass that on to the Secret Service, and with adequate manpower, I think that the Secret Service would have more or less the primary responsibility of following those sort of individuals.

The CHAIRMAN. I suppose you wouldn't want to take away from the Secret Service entirely the concern that it might have for groups?

Secretary DILLON. Oh, no.

The CHAIRMAN. And the necessity of going into those groups to ascertain further whether they were a threat to the President?

Secretary DILLON. Yes; but I don't think it is their function to try, for instance, to have undercover people to penetrate groups or do things of that nature which the FBI generally does.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Secretary DILLON. And it is their job to do that. That would require, of course, a much larger organization, but I certainly think the Service has to keep track of them, and they can't just say we have no interest and everything must come from somewhere else. I don't mean that at all. But that is not their primary responsibility. I thought that is what Mr. Dulles' view of it was.

The CHAIRMAN. Anything more?

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Secretary, just one other question. It raises the question of the combination of the--in the Secret Service of the two functions of Presidential protection and of the counterfeiting and related investigatory duties in connection with counterfeiting. Have you got any comments on that? Is that a logical or wise combination or would you suggest any change there?

Secretary DILLON. Well, these are two separate functions. I do think that there is a certain advantage to it that has developed and which I think should be maintained. That comes from the fact that counterfeiting is not an operation that is overly large; so it means that people who are engaged in this can very well be trained. Many have had tours such as earlier in the White House detail.

Mr. DULLES. You transfer back and forth, do you, from these two functions?

Secretary DILLON. Oh, yes; many of the people after a little service in the White House detail find that life too strenuous, the hours bad, or prefer not to travel, and so forth, prefer the type of work that opens up in the counterfeiting section. Then they move out into one of the field offices, and there are probably a few more possibilities as heads of these fields offices for higher level jobs than there would be in the White House detail. So there is an interchange.

Now, that interchange, I think, is useful because you do have these field offices that you can then call upon to do protective work, and I think there can be much more of that because, as what I indicated earlier, with this development of more detailed criteria, the greater number of people coming in to check up on, there are going to be more investigations in the field that should be done by the Secret Service, and it can be done by these people who have had this training and who know what to look for and who have worked on this same sort of assignment.

They also are readily available and fit right into the pattern of Presidential protection when the President goes to their area. So I think that is another great advantage.

So therefore I think there is substantial advantage by having this additional assignment which is in a different area, counterfeiting. I think it is probable happenstance; it grew that way. It could have been in some other different area, but the size of it which is large enough but not too large I think combines very well with the White House detail to give us a possibility of making a very effective operation.

Mr. DULLES. Do I correctly assume from what you have said that initially your field offices were largely organized for the counterfeiting side of the work but that is now changing, and more and more the work of the field office is coming into the Presidential protection?

Secretary DILLON. Well, I think certainly the amount that they will be doing on Presidential protection has greatly increased.

The counterfeiting hasn't decreased. That has increased also. But whereas earlier I think they were only used in Presidential protection when they had to be, when they were pulled off their other jobs and brought to Washington and sent to travel on a trip or something like that, because extra people were needed, I think now if we get an adequate staff they will be doing more of this as a regular routine part of their job, investigating people in their areas as well as investigating counterfeit cases in their area.

So they will have more or less two permanent jobs to do.

The CHAIRMAN. While you may have had a decrease in counterfeiting, I suppose you have had a great increase in forgeries, haven't you?

Secretary DILLON. Yes; we have had an increase I said in counterfeiting and also in forgeries.

The CHAIRMAN. Oh, in counterfeiting. I misunderstood you. I thought you said you had a decrease.

Secretary DILLON. No; a great increase in counterfeiting on account of development of these methods of photography.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I recall now.

Secretary DILLON. That is similar to check forgery which is the same problem on Government checks which has also increased.

Mr. DULLES. That is all I have, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. Thank you very much, Mr. Secretary.

Before we adjourn, I would like to say to you, Mr. Secretary, that the Secret Service has been most cooperative ever since this Commission was formed. It has been very attentive to our every wish and has been very helpful throughout. We appreciate it very much indeed.

Secretary DILLON. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Also, we appreciate the very fine work which the Internal Revenue agents did in making a study of reconstructing income of persons involved in the investigation and the other assistance that the agents gave in connection with our work.

[In connection with the testimony of Secretary Dillon the Commission requested and received additional information on Secret Service budget requests for the fiscal years 1960 through 1965. The document containing the information was marked as Commission Exhibit No. 1053-F for identification and received in evidence.]

We will adjourn now.

(Whereupon, at 1:25 p.m., the President's Commission adjourned.)

_Sunday, September 6, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 3:20 p.m., on September 6, 1964, at the U.S. Naval Air Station, Dallas, Tex.

Present were Senator Richard Russell, presiding; Senator John Sherman Cooper, and Congressman Hale Boggs, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Dean R. G. Storey, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas; Leon I. Gopadze and Peter P. Gregory, interpreters; and John Joe Howlett, Secret Service agent.

[NOTE.--The witness, Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald, having been previously sworn in these proceedings, testified through the interpreters as shown in this transcript as follows: *Translation is by Mr. Paul D. Gregory, interpreter; **translation is by Mr. Leon I. Gopadze, interpreter. Where the answer or a paragraph shown as part of an answer has no asterisk, the answer is by the witness herself without the use of the interpreters.]

Mr. RANKIN. Senator Russell, will you swear the witness?

Senator RUSSELL. Since she is already under oath in this hearing, I assume that oath will carry over?

Mr. RANKIN. All right.

Senator RUSSELL. You understand that you have been sworn?*

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Gregory, have you been sworn in connection with these proceedings?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Senator RUSSELL. Will you do it, Mr. Rankin?

Mr. RANKIN. Will you rise and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that you are going to translate of Mrs. Oswald will be truly translated?

Mr. GREGORY. To the best of my knowledge and ability, so help me God.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Gopadze, have you been sworn as a translator in these proceedings?

Mr. GOPADZE. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you rise, please?

Do you solemnly swear that your translation of anything of the testimony of Mrs. Oswald will be true and correct, to the best of your knowledge?

Mr. GOPADZE. I do.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. Mrs. Oswald, we're going to ask you rather informally a number of questions about matters that have come up that we would like to get your testimony about. Senator Russell will start, then Senator Cooper will have some, and then I'll have a few I would like to ask you about, and Representative Boggs will have some.

Representative BOGGS. I suggest we designate Senator Russell as chairman of this meeting.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you record Senator Russell, Miss Reporter, as the chairman of the meeting, please?

The REPORTER. Yes, sir.

Dean STOREY. This is Miss Oliver. She is the reporter to Judge Hughes, a Federal judge here.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes; we know her well by her reporting in other matters for us.

Senator RUSSELL. Mrs. Oswald, there may be some repetition in what we say, in the testimony that was taken in Washington, because, I among others, could not attend that hearing, so you will understand if we ask questions that are similar to those that were asked of you when you were in Washington on other occasions.*

We will try to avoid any more of that than we can help.

I have read all of your testimony. I don't mean that I recall all of it, but I read it, as well as your memoirs that were submitted to the Commission.

When you first met Lee Oswald, did he ever mention anything about politics or his political philosophy?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator RUSSELL. Did you ever ask him his reason for coming to Russia?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Not the first evening when we got acquainted.

Senator RUSSELL. Prior to the time that you were married to him, did you ask him his reasons for coming to Russia?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator RUSSELL. Why did he say that he had come to Russia?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He told me that the Soviet Union is the outstanding Communist country and he wanted to see it with his own eyes.

Senator RUSSELL. Well, I notice in your testimony that you said that his memoirs insofar as he claimed that he wished to be a citizen of the Soviet Union were erroneous?*

In other words, I want to continue the statement so there won't be any confusion--I'm not trying to trap her. But that he told you that he had been offered citizenship in the Soviet Union and had declined?* **

**Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

*Yes, that's what he said to me.

Senator RUSSELL. Did he give any reasons why he declined citizenship in the Soviet Union?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. The reason he gave me for declining to become a Soviet citizen was because he said that in case he did not like the way they do things in the Soviet Union, it would be easier for him to leave the country than if he did become a citizen.

Senator RUSSELL. After you were married to Lee, did he complain about the way they did things in the Soviet Union?* **

Mrs. OSWALD. What?

Mr. GREGORY. Senator, excuse me, sir. I'm a little mixed up on your question. Would you mind to repeat that question, sir?

Senator RUSSELL. Did he ever, after their marriage, complain about conditions as he found them in the Soviet Union, or the way they did things in the Soviet Union? I believe that was the word you said she used.*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he did.

Senator RUSSELL. What was the subject of his complaint?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He did not like his job. He did not like the wage scale that they paid him, not only for him but for people that were engaged in the same line of work.

*Then, he was unhappy about the restrictions that his movements were subjected to, being a noncitizen of the Soviet Union. Every 3 months he was obliged to report--every 3 months or every so often----

Senator RUSSELL. Periodically?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Periodically, he had to report to a certain government institution, where they would extend his permit of residence.

Senator RUSSELL. Were there any other restrictions on his movements? If he had reported duly as he was required, could he have gone down to Kharkov or any other place that he might have wished to go? * **

*Mrs. OSWALD. Of course, in addition to restrictions imposed on his movements, there were other things that he was dissatisfied with in the Soviet Union.

Senator RUSSELL. Do you care to give any of those?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He was dissatisfied with high prices for everything that he had to pay. He was dissatisfied with the quarters, living quarters that he had.

Senator RUSSELL. Do you know whether or not he had any friends that he made there in Minsk while he was living there?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator RUSSELL. Did most of them work in the same plant where he did or did he make other friends out in the community?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He had many acquaintances that worked in the same place, but he had no friends. He had two friends at work, in other words, closer than acquaintances--friends--those that I know personally.

Senator RUSSELL. But none other than those that worked there in the same plant?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. There was one young man who was a friend of his, which did not work in the same plant, but was a student at the medical college.

Senator RUSSELL. Did Lee go to school while he was there in Minsk? Did he do any studying in any of the institutes?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator RUSSELL. He did not.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Lee wanted to attend Patrice Lumumba Institute in Moscow but his application was turned down. He was very much put out, because he told me that one of the main reasons he came to the Soviet Union was to get education. He said that after his application was turned down. He told that to me after his application was turned down.

Senator RUSSELL. Was that before or after you were married?

Mrs. OSWALD. After.

Senator RUSSELL. Now, in reading your testimony, Mrs. Oswald, I noticed that you referred to a number of foreign students who attended the institutes in Minsk, including, I believe you said, a number of Cubans. Do you know whether or not Lee Oswald was acquainted with any of those Cubans?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I have never met these Cuban friends of his, but I do know that he and Erich; Erich is the medical student previously referred to, they had Cuban friends. What they were talking about, I do not know. I have never met him. Lee was interested in Cuba and in Cuban affairs, but I don't know anything in detail, just through conversations.

Senator RUSSELL. Do you know whether he had any Cuban friends here in Texas or in New Orleans after he came back from Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. [Nodding a negative response.]

Senator RUSSELL. You don't know whether he did or not?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't think he had.

Senator RUSSELL. You don't think he did. Now, you referred to the fact in your testimony about his joining some gun club or rifle club in Minsk?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator RUSSELL. And he purchased, I believe, a rifle or he had a rifle?

*Mrs. OSWALD. By the time we got married, he already owned a rifle and he already was a member of a gun club in Minsk.

Senator RUSSELL. From your testimony I gathered that he was not very active in the gun club in carrying on with his rifle?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No. He never went hunting except once during all the time that we lived in Minsk.

Senator RUSSELL. Did he ever discuss with you his desire to meet any high official with the Soviet Government?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator RUSSELL. He never did?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator RUSSELL. Do you know whether or not he carried on any correspondence?

Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me----

*The only instance I recall--when we filed an application for our returning to the United States, he visited some colonel, some Soviet colonel, Aksenov [spelling] A-k-s-e-n-o-v, in order to expedite the exit visas for us. I also visited this Colonel Aksenov.

Mrs. OSWALD. I'm sorry----

*Correction. He never got to see Colonel Aksenov because when he went to discuss this question in the--whatever office that was--he talked to some junior officer, and they would not let him have an audience with the colonel.

Senator RUSSELL. Did you go to see the colonel likewise?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator RUSSELL. You were both there together?

*Mrs. OSWALD. We never got to see him. I saw Colonel Aksenov later on.

Senator RUSSELL. Was he a colonel in the army or in the militia or in the police or just what? Where did he get his rank?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He was a colonel in the MVD, which is the Administer of Internal Affairs.

Senator RUSSELL. He had to do then with the passports. His recommendation would have had to have been had with the passports?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I think so. I do not know definitely, but that meeting was in the Ministry of Internal Affairs. He was not dressed in a military uniform.

Senator RUSSELL. Had you known the colonel prior to that time?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; he introduced himself as Colonel Aksenov.

Mr. GREGORY. When?

*Mrs. OSWALD. When I talked to him concerning these documents for exit visas. Even if he were in a uniform, I would not have known what the insignia meant.

Senator RUSSELL. If you didn't know him prior to that time, why is it you got to see him and Lee could not visit him?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee went to see Colonel Aksenov in regard to the exit visas and other documents, he could not see the colonel. Then, on another later occasion, I went to see the colonel and they let me see him, on a later occasion.

Senator RUSSELL. But you don't know why?*

Mrs. OSWALD (no response).

Senator RUSSELL. Did any of your friends or relatives intercede with the colonel in your behalf?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. My uncle works in the MVD, but I'm sure that he did not discuss this matter of exit visas with Colonel Aksenov because I think he would have been afraid to talk about it. When my uncle knew that Lee and I were planning to go back to the United States, my uncle was afraid for his own job and for his own welfare.

Senator RUSSELL. I knew you testified before that he did not want you to come to the United States, that your uncle did not, but he was working in the same line of work as this colonel was?*

Mrs. OSWALD. In the same building, but not in the same department. I believe that Colonel Aksenov knew my uncle.

Senator RUSSELL. Yes; but you didn't testify before, I believe, that your uncle would have been afraid to have helped you. You did testify that he did not want you to leave Russia? That's the way I recall it. I could be in error about that--do you know why he was afraid? Why should he have been afraid for you to leave Russia?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. My uncle never told me personally that he was afraid that something might happen to him if I went to America, but his wife, my aunt, confided in me that my uncle was afraid for his job and for his well-being if I went to America.

Senator RUSSELL. What rank did your uncle hold in the MVD? If this man was a colonel, what was your uncle, was he a colonel or a major or what?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. My uncle has a degree in forestry, but he is also a colonel in MVD. Every employee has to be in the service, in the military service. He has a degree in forestry, but he is also a colonel in MVD.

Senator RUSSELL. He also has the rank of a colonel in the MVD?*

Mrs. OSWALD. No. He is the head of the forestry department in MVD. I don't know what he is doing there.

Senator RUSSELL. Did you ever have any occasion or know any other Russian wife of a foreigner who tried to leave Russia?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Mrs. Zeger. Mrs. Zeger and her husband lived in Argentina for 25 years----

Senator RUSSELL. Well, you testified very fully about them. But I am asking now if you know of any Russian national or citizen who was married to a foreign national who ever was able to get a visa to leave from Russia?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't know--I don't know of anyone. I only heard in the American Embassy in Moscow, where I heard of a Russian woman married to an American, who had difficulty leaving the country.

Senator RUSSELL. Well, that's what I had in mind.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Therefore, to the very last moment we did not believe that they would let us out of the Soviet Union.

Senator RUSSELL. Did they examine you very much or ask you many questions about why you wished to leave, other than the fact that your husband decided to return to the United States?*

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

*No. We only filled out a proper questionnaire containing a statement that this will be a permanent residence in the United States, or leaving the Soviet Union for permanent residence in the United States.

Senator RUSSELL. And none of the officials or police examined you at all about your reason for wishing to leave?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. It's very surprising, but nobody did.

Senator RUSSELL. Do you know as to whether or not Lee corresponded with any of his friends in Russia after he came back to this country?*

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

*He did.

Mrs. OSWALD. With Mr. and Mrs. Zeger.

*With Mr. and Mrs. Zeger, and Erich; the medical student. I don't recall the medical student, and Pavel Golovachev.

Senator RUSSELL. Paul--he was one of your old boy friends, wasn't he?

Mrs. OSWALD. Paul?

Senator RUSSELL. I thought one of them was named Paul?*

Mrs. OSWALD (no response).

Senator RUSSELL. Did he correspond very frequently?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Not often.

Senator RUSSELL. Did you write very often to your family and friends in Russia?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I wrote several letters shortly after we came to America, but I never received any answer. I also wrote to some of my colleagues where I worked.

Senator RUSSELL. In Minsk?

Mrs. OSWALD. And shortly after that, my aunt wrote me. Then I understood that perhaps the letters I wrote my aunt never reached her.

Senator RUSSELL. She did not refer to your letters when she wrote to you?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; the only thing that she wrote, she was glad to get--that she learned my address.

Senator RUSSELL. Did she say how she learned it? That was my next question?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. The supervisory of a drugstore, an apothecary----

Senator RUSSELL. An apothecary?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Or manager of a drugstore telephoned my aunt and told her she received a letter from me.

Senator RUSSELL. But she did not answer that letter, or if she did, you didn't receive it?

Mrs. OSWALD. No--she answered this letter.

Senator RUSSELL. I understand, but the friend in the apothecary, did he answer?*

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator RUSSELL. Now, in some of your testimony you referred to a time when you became somewhat piqued with Lee about something and wrote one of your old friends there and forgot to put the stamp or didn't know that the stamps had been increased--you recall that testimony, do you not?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator RUSSELL. Did you write to any of your other friends there and put the proper stamps on them?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; this was the only letter I wrote.

Senator RUSSELL. The only one you wrote?

*Mrs. OSWALD. This was the only letter I wrote after I found out the proper postage required for mailing letters. After that, my aunt never wrote me.

Senator RUSSELL. Have you corresponded with your uncle or aunt at any time since this great tragedy?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I did.