Chapter XLVI: Section 51: 135, entitled "Denial of passports to members of Communist (16)

Senator RUSSELL. And did you receive any reply?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator RUSSELL. Have you written them more than once since this great tragedy?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember exactly whether I did or not.

Senator RUSSELL. But you've written them at least once without receiving a reply?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I remember well that I wrote at least once, maybe it was twice or three times, but I don't remember.

Senator RUSSELL. Has any official of the Russian Government communicated with you since this great tragedy?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; no one ever communicated with me from the Soviet Embassy or any other representative of the Soviet Government, and I felt rather bad about it, because there I was--all alone in a strange country and I did not receive any encouragement from anyone. They didn't approach me even as a show of interest in my well-being.

Senator RUSSELL. You didn't even hear from them with reference to your application for visas to return to Russia, although you had heard from them prior to the time Lee was killed?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. Not after Lee was killed.

Senator RUSSELL. Now, if I've understood it from reading your testimony, Mrs. Oswald, Lee went to Mexico from New Orleans a day or two after Mrs. Paine brought you back to Texas, is that right?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know definitely, but I believe Mrs. Paine and I left one day before he went to Mexico.

Senator RUSSELL. He had talked to you about going to Mexico, had he not?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he had told me he was going to Mexico.

Senator RUSSELL. And he had told you that he intended to visit the Russian Embassy and the Cuban consulate while he was there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator RUSSELL. And that was at a time when he was very anxious to get to Cuba, I believe?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator RUSSELL. When was it, Mrs. Oswald, that Lee told you he thought it was best for you to go back to Russia, as to time? I know you testified he told you that, but was that after the Walker case or before the Walker case? *

*Mrs. OSWALD. I believe it was before he made the attempt on General Walker's life. It may be that I stated it differently in my deposition, but I believe it was before. Lee insisted on my returning to the Soviet Union before the attempt on Walker's life.

Senator RUSSELL. I gather from your evidence, Mrs. Oswald, that Lee was a very devoted husband, unusually so for an American husband, even though you had little spats at times. Do you think that he advised you that because he thought something was going to happen that would involve the family in difficulties?*

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator RUSSELL. You don't think so?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; he was not a good husband. I may have said so in my deposition, but if I did, it was when I was in a state of shock.

Senator RUSSELL. You not only said so in your deposition, Mrs. Oswald, but you testified in your testimony before the Commission several times that he was a very good husband and he was very devoted to you, and that when he was at home and not employed that he did a great deal of the housework and in looking after the children?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I also testified to the fact that he beat me on many occasions, so some of the statements I made regarding him were good and some were bad.

Senator RUSSELL. In other words, some of them were not true that you made?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; everything was true.

Senator RUSSELL. Everything was true?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

*I made statements in the record that he was good when he did housework and washed the floors and was good to the baby, and again, he was not good when he beat me and was insolent.

Senator RUSSELL. Did he beat you on many occasions?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Rather--many.

Senator RUSSELL. Well, you only testified to one, did you not, before the Commission?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I was rather embarrassed to discuss this before the Commission, but he beat me on more than on one occasion.

Senator RUSSELL. And you stated at that time that you bruise very readily and that's the reason you had such a bad black eye? Did you not testify to that?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator RUSSELL. Was that true or not true?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. It is true--it is--whatever I said.

Senator RUSSELL. It is true that you bruise easily, but that was just one of many occasions he had beat you?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. On one occasion; yes.

Senator RUSSELL. But you didn't testify to the others, did you?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I think I testified only about one particular occasion that I was asked about, whether he beat me or not, and I replied that he did, but he beat me on more than one occasion.

Senator RUSSELL. Did he ever fail to provide for you and the children?*

Mrs. OSWALD. No----

*While he never earned too much, but when he had the job and earned, say, around $200 a month, we never had any particular need of anything. However, Lee was so frugal, not only frugal, but he kept part of the money in his own possession all the time that was not available for the family.

Senator RUSSELL. You always had plenty to eat and the children had plenty to wear?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not really.

We were never hungry, but we didn't have much. We were never too hungry, but we never had any plentitude. We never had too much, and I wanted--I always wanted this and that, but that was not available.

Senator RUSSELL. But he never made a great deal of money, did he?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I marvel now how we managed to live on what he earned at that time in comparison with what I have now. We spent $12 or $15 a week at that time.

We spent $12 or $15 a week at that time--you know, we can live--that was for milk and so on.

Senator RUSSELL. He didn't spent any money on himself, did he, he wasn't extravagant in his own habits? He didn't spend his money on clothes or whisky or women or things of that kind, did he?

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, no. He told--somebody told about Jack Ruby--he went to his nightclub, he never did go to nightclub.

Senator RUSSELL. Well, I mean just extravagance in his own habits--he was frugal in his own eating habits, he didn't eat much when he was away from home, did he?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator RUSSELL. You knew where he kept his money in your home, did you not?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He had a black wallet, but I never ventured into it.

Senator RUSSELL. Did he not tell you to take some of the money out of the wallet at one time and buy some clothes for the children and yourself?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. GOPADZE. Pardon--you don't understand the question?**

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he did. It was the morning before the tragedy.

Senator RUSSELL. Before the assassination of the President?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator RUSSELL. Did he ever talk to you about the result of his visit to Mexico?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator RUSSELL. Did he say his efforts were all a failure there, that he got any assistance that he was seeking?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He told me that he visited the Cuban Embassy and the Soviet Embassy and that they have the same bureaucracy in the Cuban Embassy that they have in the Soviet Embassy and that he obtained no results.

Senator RUSSELL. Did you have less money in the United States than you had in Russia when you were married over there?

*Mrs. OSWALD. We had more money in the United States than we did in the Soviet Union, but here we have to pay $65 a month rent from $200 earned, and we didn't have to do that in the Soviet Union. Here the house rent amounted to 30 percent of total wages earned, while in the Soviet Union we paid 10 percent of the wages earned. Then, all the medical expenses, medical assistance--expenses are paid there. However, Lee didn't spend much money on medical expenses here because he found ways to get the expenses free; the services free.

Senator RUSSELL. You have testified, I believe, that Lee didn't use his rifle much, the one he had in the Soviet Union. Did he ever discuss shooting anyone in the Soviet Union like he did in shooting Nixon and Walker here in this country?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; not in the Soviet Union.

Senator RUSSELL. You haven't then heard from anyone except one letter from your aunt, since you left Russia?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I received letters from my girl friend.

Senator RUSSELL. Oh, how many letters from your girl friend?

Mrs. OSWALD. Just from one--a Christmas card--I don't remember how many, probably not more than four or five.

*But only one letter from the aunt.

*Mrs. OSWALD. We received letters from Lee's friends written to both of us--several letters.

Senator RUSSELL. Written to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Written to Lee and to me.

Senator RUSSELL. I see, but it's strange about your family that you didn't hear from them when you had written to them?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. It is strange and it's hurtful.

Senator RUSSELL. Mrs. Oswald, I believe you testified that Lee didn't ever discuss political matters with you very much? *

*Mrs. OSWALD. He discussed politics with me very little.

Senator RUSSELL. And that when he was discussing political matters with Mr. Paine and Mr. De Mohrenschildt and others, that you didn't pay any attention, that they didn't address any of it to you, that they discussed it between themselves?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I did not participate in those conversations.

Senator RUSSELL. And that he didn't discuss a great many things about his work and things of that kind with you?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. The only time he discussed his work with me was when he worked for a printing company. He told me that he liked that job.

Senator RUSSELL. Why do you suppose he told you about the fact that he was going to shoot Mr. Nixon and had shot at General Walker?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. As regards General Walker, he came home late. He left me a note and so that is the reason why he discussed the Walker affair with me.

*Now, in regard to Mr. Nixon, he got dressed up in his suit and he put a gun in his belt.

Senator RUSSELL. You testified in his belt--I was going to ask about that, because that was a very unusual place to carry a gun. Usually, he would carry it in his coat. Did you ever see him have a gun in his belt before?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I would have noticed it if he did.

Senator RUSSELL. You wouldn't have noticed it?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I would have noticed it if he did.

Senator RUSSELL. I see--you would have noticed it.

*Mrs. OSWALD. And so--I have never seen him before with the pistol.

Senator RUSSELL. He didn't state to you that he talked to any person in Mexico other than at the Russian Embassy and the Cuban Embassy?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No. The only persons he mentioned were the Cuban Embassy and the Soviet Embassy in Mexico.

Senator RUSSELL. Now, going back to your personal relations, Mrs. Oswald, with Lee. Do you think he wanted to send you back to Russia just to get rid of you?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. This is the question that I am puzzled about and I am wondering about it myself, whether he wanted to get rid of me.

Senator RUSSELL. Do you think he was really devoted to the children or was he just putting on a show about liking the children?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he loved the children.

*I believe he loved the children, but at times--one side of his life was such that I wondered whether he did or not. Some of the things that he did certainly were not good for his children--some of the acts he was engaged in.

Senator RUSSELL. He knew you would take the children back to Russia with you, if you wanted, did he not?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Of course I would have taken the children with me to the Soviet Union.

Senator RUSSELL. It seems to me that I recall once or twice in this testimony when you had had some little domestic trouble, as all married couples have, that he had cried, which is most unusual for a man in this country--men don't cry very often, and do you think that he cried despite the fact that he wasn't very devoted to you and loved you a great deal?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. The fact that he cried, and on one occasion he begged me to come back to him--he stood on his knees and begged me to come back to him--whether that meant that he loved me--perhaps he did. On the other hand, the acts that he committed showed to me that he didn't particularly care for me.

Senator RUSSELL. You think then that his acts that he committed outside your domestic life within the family, within the realm of the family, was an indication that he did not love you?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. The fact that he made attempts on the lives of other people showed to me that he did not treasure his family life and his children, also the fact that he beat me and wanted to send me to the Soviet Union.

Senator RUSSELL. And you think that the fact that he promised you after the Walker incident that he would never do anything like that again but did, is an indication that he didn't love you?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Logically--yes. That shows to me that he did not love me. At times he cried, and did all sorts of helpful things around the house. At other times he was mean. Frankly, I am lost as to what to think about him.

And I did not have any choice, because he was the only person that I knew and I could count on--the only person in the United States.

Senator RUSSELL. Did he beat you very often, Mrs. Oswald, strike you hard blows with his fists? Did he hit you with his fists?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. When he beat me, sometimes he would beat me hard and sometimes not too hard. Sometimes he would leave a black eye and sometimes he wouldn't, depending on which part of me he would strike me. When we lived in New Orleans he never beat me up.

Senator RUSSELL. Did he ever beat you in Russia before you came to this country?*

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator RUSSELL. Had you ever heard of any husband striking his wife in Russia?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. It seems that beating of wives by the Russian husbands is a rather common thing in the Soviet Union and that is why I was afraid to marry a Russian.

Senator RUSSELL. I see. Do they beat them with anything other than their hands?

There was a law in my State at one time that a man could whip his wife as long as he didn't use a switch that was larger than his thumb. That law has been repealed.

But, did they ever whip their wives with anything other than their hands in Russia?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know. I was not interested in what manner they beat their wives.

Senator RUSSELL. That's difficult for me to believe--that a very charming and attractive girl who was being courted by a number of men, I would have thought you would have been greatly interested in all the aspects of matrimony?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. How would I know?

Senator RUSSELL. How would you know it--well, by general conversation. Don't people talk about those things all over the world--in Russia and everywhere else?

Mrs. OSWALD. That's different there.

Senator RUSSELL. People are very much the same, aren't they, all over the world? If a man in the neighborhood gets drunk and beats and abuses his wife and children, isn't that discussed by all the people in the block--in that area?

Mrs. OSWALD. **Sometimes during a life of 20 years with a husband, everything will be all right, and then some occasion will arise or something will happen that the wife will learn about what kind of person he is.

*I know of one family in the Soviet Union in Minsk, where a husband was married to a woman 17 years, and he just went to another woman.

For 1 year.

*For 1 year--then he came back to the first one full of shame and repentance and he cried and she took him back in. He lived with her for 3 days and then left her again. He was excluded from the party.

Senator RUSSELL. Excommunicated from the party?

Mrs. OSWALD. **Expelled from the party.

*But he took all the possessions of their common property when he left.

Senator RUSSELL. I'm taking too much time, and I will hurry along. Did he ever beat you badly enough, Mrs. Oswald, for you to require the services of a doctor, a physician?*

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator RUSSELL. Did he ever strike you during your pregnancy, when you were pregnant?*

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. GOPADZE. She said, "I think." She said, "I think."

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he did strike me.

Senator RUSSELL. What reason did he give for striking you, usually?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Well, the reasons were if--they were very petty--I can't even remember what the reasons were after this quarrel was over. Sometimes he would tell me to shut up, and I don't take that from him.

**I'm not a very quiet woman myself.

Senator RUSSELL. "I'm not--" what?

**Mrs. OSWALD. I'm not a quiet woman myself and sometimes it gets on your nerves and you'll just tell him he's an idiot and he will become more angry with you.

*Enraged. When I would call him an idiot, he would say, "Well, I'll show you what kind of an idiot I am," so he would beat me up.

Senator RUSSELL. Did you ever strike him?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I would give him some in return.

Senator RUSSELL. You would give him some in return.

As I recall your testimony, when he told you about the Nixon incident, you testified that you held him in the bathroom by physical strength for some 4 or 5 minutes, so you should have been able to hold your own pretty well with him if you could do that?* **

Mrs. OSWALD. Probably not 5 minutes, but a long time for him.

*Sometimes one can gather all of his strength in a moment like that. I am not a strong person, but sometimes under stress and strain perhaps I am stronger than I ordinarily am.

Senator RUSSELL. Did you ever strike him with anything other than your hand?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I think at one time I told him that if he would beat me again, I will hurl a radio, a transistor radio, and when he did strike me, I threw the radio at him.

Senator RUSSELL. You missed him?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No--it broke. I missed him.

Senator RUSSELL. Yes, she missed him.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I tried not to hit him.

Senator RUSSELL. Now, going back a moment or two to your uncle, whom you lived with and to whom I understand you are quite devoted--did he try to keep you from coming to the United States very vigorously?

*Mrs. OSWALD. My uncle was against my going to America, but he never imposed his will or his opinion on me.

Senator RUSSELL. Did he or any other members of your family ever tell you why you had such little difficulty in getting your passport approved?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. During the pendency of receiving this exit visa, we never discussed the question, my uncle and my aunt, but when we received it, the exit visa and it was granted to us so quickly, they were very much surprised.

Mr. GOPADZE. Now, Marina, I'm sorry. I would like to make a correction to that point.

Mr. GREGORY. All right.

Mr. GOPADZE. That during the time they were expecting a visa to depart the Soviet Union, the relatives didn't express too much about it--because they didn't [think] they would depart, and when they did receive it, they were very much surprised----

Mr. GREGORY. Correct.

Mr. GOPADZE. With the expediency of the visa. Therefore, they didn't bother asking any questions or into their affairs concerning the departure. The last time they visited their aunt and uncle, they say, "Oh, of all places, you're going to the United States."

Senator RUSSELL. Lee never did make much more than $225 a month, in that area, did he, and he was unemployed almost as much as he was employed?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator RUSSELL. How did he manage to pay the State Department the money he had borrowed from them and to pay his brother Robert under those circumstances?*

Mrs. OSWALD. He paid those debts out of his earnings. The first few weeks when we came to the United States, we lived with his mother, and that gave us the opportunity to pay the debts.

Senator RUSSELL. Well, you only lived with Mrs. Oswald a matter of 3 or 4 weeks, didn't you?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; but he was earning money during that time.

Senator RUSSELL. I understand, but he was not earning more than $200 a month, was he, and he paid four or five or six--what was it, Mr. Rankin?

Mr. RANKIN. It was over $400.

Senator RUSSELL. Over $450 or more to the State Department and some amount to his brother Robert.

Mrs. OSWALD. Around $100.

*It was $100.

It was probably $100.

Senator RUSSELL. That's $550, and a person that's earning $200 a month part of the time, and having to support a family, that's a rather remarkable feat, isn't it, of financing?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I think that at the time we were leaving Russia, some of the rubles were exchanged for dollars, and maybe he kept part of that money, of which I have no knowledge, when we arrived in the United States. The only thing I know is that we lived very, very economically and Lee was saying all the time that the debts have to be paid as quickly as possible.

Senator RUSSELL. I was under the impression that there was a very drastic limit on the number of rubles that could be exchanged, that it was a hundred or 130 or something in that area?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. According to the law in the Soviet Union, they allow about 90 rubles per person to be exchanged into foreign currency or dollars--$180 in our case because Lee was including the baby, and she----

Senator RUSSELL. For each of them--the exchange.

Mrs. OSWALD. Not for Lee.

Senator RUSSELL. No; he couldn't bring out any more than he took in with him. Well, he wasn't a visitor, though--yes, he was a visitor then. I know they checked my money when I went in there.**

**Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know the reason why they didn't allow Lee to exchange $90, but I believe that there is a Soviet law that for Soviet citizens they allow $90 for each person. Excuse me.

*I believe that a foreigner is also entitled to exchange rubles for dollars, but in a very limited amount.

Senator RUSSELL. Mrs. Oswald, do you have any plans to return to the Soviet Union, or do you intend to live in this country?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Of course--to remain in the United States.

Senator RUSSELL. I have a few other questions, but I'm already taking too much time.

Senator COOPER. I want to say something off the record.

(Conference between Senator Cooper and Senator Russell off the record.)

Representative BOGGS. I have just one question.

Senator COOPER. All right.

Senator RUSSELL. Go right ahead.

Representative BOGGS. Mrs. Oswald, have you been taking English lessons?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative BOGGS. Do you speak English now?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I can't call it speaking English.

Representative BOGGS. But you understand English, you replied to my question a moment ago?**

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative BOGGS. But you have been speaking English, studying English, and whom do you live with now?

Mrs. OSWALD. With myself and my kids, with my neighbors.

Representative BOGGS. Do you read English?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. A little bit.

*A little bit.

Mr. GOPADZE. Naturally, she knows the English alphabet, but she doesn't read too much.

**Sometimes I read on my own, but on the other hand, it might be entirely different for an American.

Senator RUSSELL. Well, I believe you can speak it pretty well, Mrs. Oswald. You are a very intelligent person, and I've never seen a woman yet that didn't learn a foreign language three times as fast as a man.

Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you.

Senator RUSSELL. They all do, and in some places in Russia you run into women that speak three or four languages very fluently, including in the high schools, where they have 10 or 12 years of English, starting in the first grade with it?

Mrs. OSWALD. That's the way they try--to learn it in school.

Senator RUSSELL. Is that your foreign language? I understand in Russia each student has to study some one foreign language all the way--or at least for 5 or 6 years?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; but I don't like this system of education in Russia to study some languages--well, he can speak, you know.

Senator RUSSELL. Mrs. Oswald, your attorney--your then attorney, according to the record, asked the Commission some questions about your memoirs, your diary or whatever it was that you have written--your reminiscences, and that they not be released. Have you ever made arrangements yet to sell them? Have you gotten rid of them? Because--the record of the Commission will be printed at a rather early date?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. I do not want these memoirs to be published by Warren Commission.

Senator RUSSELL. Yes; I understand that.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I am now working on a book and I may wish to include these memoirs in that book. I have no objection to the publication of the material in those memoirs that have any relation to the assassination of the President, or anything that is pertinent to this particular inquiry.

Senator RUSSELL. Of course, a great deal of it is very personal. It's about your social relations when you were a young woman. Of course, you are a young woman now, but when you were even younger than you are now, and the friends that you had, and things of that nature, and this report is going to be published before too long. And that's among the evidence there, and I was trying to get some timing on your book or whatever it is you are going to publish that would utilize this material, in an effort to help you--that is the only purpose I had, to try to see that you don't lose the publicity value of the memoirs.*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I understand that and I'm certainly grateful to you for it.

**Would it be possible to publish in the report only parts of my life, that pertaining to the assassination, instead of my private life?

Senator RUSSELL. I cannot answer that, and only the entire Commission could answer that, but when I read that in the testimony, I was hoping that you had found some means of commercializing on it either to the moving picture people or to the publishing world.

Mrs. OSWALD. As yet, I have not availed myself of that opportunity, sir.

Senator RUSSELL. When do you think you will publish this book?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. The publisher will possibly publish the book toward the end of December, maybe in January and even perhaps----

Mr. GOPADZE. Not the publisher. The person who writes the story is hoping to be able to finish it in the latter part of December.

Senator RUSSELL. Of course, it goes into much more detail, I'm sure, than this sketch we have, because this wouldn't be anything like a book. It would be more of a magazine article.

**Mrs. OSWALD. Would it be possible to delete it from the Commission's report?

Senator RUSSELL. I can't answer that because I'm not the whole Commission.**

Very frankly, I think the Commission would be disposed to publish all the material that they have, is my own honest view about it. The reason I am discussing it with you is to find out if you have done anything about it. Of course, if you are writing a whole book, it won't be so important, just this one phase of it.

Mrs. OSWALD, during the course of your testimony, you testified that Lee often called you twice a day while he was working away from home.

Why do you think he called you if he was not in love with you?***

*Mrs. OSWALD. When he was away from me, he told me that he missed me.

Senator RUSSELL. You don't think that's an indication that he loved you?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. This shows--this would show that he loved me. He was a dual personality.

Senator RUSSELL. Split personality.

Mrs. OSWALD. Split personality--that's it.

Senator RUSSELL. Mrs. Oswald, I noticed that one of the witnesses, I've forgotten which one it was, that ran the boarding house where Lee lived, testified that he called someone every night and talked to them at some length in a foreign language. That couldn't have been anyone except you, could it, that he was calling?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. I believe that I was the person he talked to.

Senator RUSSELL. He did call you quite frequently, did he not when you were in Irving and he was in Dallas, for example?

Mrs. OSWALD. Every day.

Senator RUSSELL. But he didn't call you to abuse you over the phone, did he?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. Of course not.

Senator RUSSELL. It was the ordinary small talk you would have between a man and his wife--he would ask you about how the children were--one of them--was?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He always talked about our daughter June.

Senator RUSSELL. Did he ever say anything about, "I love you" or anything like that over the phone?**

Mrs. OSWALD. (no response).

Mr. GOPADZE. Did he?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator RUSSELL. He did?

*Mrs. OSWALD. He did.

Senator RUSSELL. Now, you've testified before, and I'm just going on recollection, but I'm sure I'm right about this, that he told you in New Orleans that he was going to Mexico City and that he was going by bus and that a round trip would be much cheaper than a one-way fare. I noticed something in the paper the other day where you had found a one-way ticket or stub on the bus from Mexico City to Dallas, I believe it was. How did you happen to come into possession of that stub?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. You say round trip was cheaper than one-way?

Senator RUSSELL. Yes; that's what you testified he told you in New Orleans when he said he was going. But here, according to the press--I don't know--a one-way stub turns up where he came back here to Dallas. Where did you get that stub?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. My statement apparently was misinterpreted in the record, because Lee stated that the cost of the ticket, say, from Dallas to Mexico is cheaper than it is from Mexico City to Dallas or from one point to Mexico and from Mexico to that same point.

Senator RUSSELL. Well, that very easily could have become confused in translation, but it certainly is in there.*

Mr. RANKIN. I think they have confused your question, Senator, I think they have confused your question. I think they think that you were saying that a round trip was cheaper than one way? Or--two ways?

Senator RUSSELL. I'm sorry, Mr. Gregory. You misunderstood it. I didn't mean that a round trip was cheaper than one way. I meant that a round trip was cheaper than to go there and back on individual tickets--than two ways.

Mr. GREGORY. She understood you correctly. I misunderstood you, Senator. I'm sorry.

*Mrs. OSWALD. The fact remains, according to Lee, that it is cheaper from Mexico--a one-way ticket from Mexico City, say, to Dallas costs less than from Dallas to Mexico, Mexico City. Or vice versa.

Senator RUSSELL. Be that as it may, how about the stub?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I found the stub of this ticket approximately 2 weeks ago when working with Priscilla Johnson on the book. Three weeks.

*Three weeks ago--I found this stub of a ticket among old magazines, Spanish magazines, and there was a television program also in Spanish and there was the stub of this ticket.

Mrs. OSWALD. But this was, you know, a piece of paper and I didn't know this was a ticket.

Senator RUSSELL. You didn't know it was a ticket?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator RUSSELL. Until you showed it to Miss Johnson?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--it was in the TV book and then Mr. Liebeler called me on telephone and asked me some questions about Mexico.

Senator RUSSELL. Yes?

Mrs. OSWALD. And I told him, "Just a minute, I'll go and inquire and tell him what I have," and I told him I have some kind of piece of paper. I don't know what it is. I don't know whether it would be interested--the Commission, and somebody who was at my house one time----

*Read what was on the stub.

Senator RUSSELL. You could read the stub all right, could you, Mrs. Oswald? There wasn't anything complicated there, you could read "One-way ticket," couldn't you? You know that much English?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. It was a mixture of Spanish and English.

Senator RUSSELL. Oh, I see--it had it both ways, and the name of the bus company, too, perhaps.

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't understand this in languages--you can't say this.

Senator RUSSELL. Where had that magazine been that had this bus ticket in it, was anything else in it, any tickets to bull fights or anywhere else?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I turned all of this material over to the FBI, thinking that they might find something of interest in it. I did not try to determine for myself what it was.

Senator RUSSELL. Was it in the possessions that were removed from Mrs. Paine's room, or was it in some of Lee's material that was moved from his boardinghouse?*

Mrs. OSWALD. It was with Mrs. Paine.

Senator RUSSELL. Didn't you testify, Mrs. Oswald, that Lee couldn't read Spanish, when you were testifying before? What was he doing with a Spanish magazine?

Mrs. OSWALD. It wasn't a Spanish magazine, it was a TV program.

Senator RUSSELL. Pardon?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was a TV program.

*It was not a Spanish magazine, it was a TV program.

Senator RUSSELL. Oh, it was not a magazine, it was a TV program. I understood you to say it was a Spanish magazine? I'm sorry.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I found all this among my old magazines and newspapers, that I was collecting after the assassination of the President, and there also were English books which could have been in that small suitcase in which I put everything.

Senator RUSSELL. How did the FBI happen to overlook that when they made the raid out there at Mrs. Paine's? I thought they carried off everything you had out there, practically?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. The reason they overlooked this particular suitcase is because I took it with me to----

**To the hotel--the first night they moved us.

*When we stayed in the hotel.

It was in Dallas.

Senator RUSSELL. It was in Dallas. That's when they were at the big hotel--where you spent one night there?

*Mrs. OSWALD. It was in Dallas and I took it with me because there were children's books.

Senator RUSSELL. I thought the FBI had already removed your passports and your diploma and everything before that time?

*Mrs. OSWALD. The first day when Lee was arrested, the FBI made a search.

Mr. GOPADZE. The FBI or police.

Mr. GREGORY. The FBI or police.

Senator RUSSELL. I believe it was the police then.

*Mrs. OSWALD. The police made the search in the Paine's house.

Senator RUSSELL. Yes.

*Mrs. OSWALD. And everything was there. I did not take anything with me that first day when I was arrested.

Senator RUSSELL. When you returned to Mrs. Paine's you found they had left this particular program there with this bus stub? You testified they had removed your passport and your diploma and Lee's union cards and Social Security card and everything else--I was just wondering how they happened to leave this particular article with the bus stub in it?*

Mrs. OSWALD. **I never retained that for any special reason.

Senator RUSSELL. I'm quite sure of that. I wasn't asking that at all.**

Mrs. OSWALD. **I don't know the reason.

Senator RUSSELL. They just overlooked that?

Mrs. OSWALD. **It was just overlooked--the same way they overlooked that other.

Senator RUSSELL. Mrs. Oswald, what are your relations now with the friends that you made in the Russian community here in Dallas? I don't remember all of the names--one of them was named Elena Hall, is that right, and Katya Ford, Anna Meller, De Mohrenschildt, De Mohrenschildt's wife and children--are you still on friendly terms with them, do you see them occasionally?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. As far as I'm concerned, I consider all of them as my friends, but George Bouhe, and Katya Ford are the only two people that come to visit me. Others perhaps feel that it is not healthy for them to come to see me.

Senator RUSSELL. I wondered if they had expressed their opinion or whether they were afraid of you on account of publicity contamination?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No, they never said that to me personally that they are afraid to come to see me. When we meet in the church, they are all very pleasant to me, but they never invite me.

Mr. GOPADZE. No.

**Mrs. OSWALD. Sometimes they invite Katya Ford, but they never invite me. Nataska Krassovska is very nice to me.

Senator RUSSELL. When was the first time you ever heard of Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein?*

Mrs. OSWALD. When he killed him.

Senator RUSSELL. You had never heard of him until that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. (Nodding a negative response.)

Senator RUSSELL. That's all.

Senator COOPER. What is your address now, Mrs. Oswald, and with whom do you live?

Mrs. OSWALD. 629 Belt Line Road, Richardson, Tex.

Senator COOPER. Does someone live with you or do you live with someone?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; I live by myself with my children.

Senator COOPER. After the death of your husband, you had a lawyer, Mr. Thorne, and a business agent, Mr. Martin, and they were discharged. Was there any particular reason for discharging them?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I got rid of them because the contract that they prepared was unfair to me, and it was prepared at a time when I did not understand it and when it was not translated to me.

Senator COOPER. Now, you later employed Mr. McKenzie as your attorney and you have since discharged him, haven't you?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I employed Mr. McKenzie to wind up the affair with Mr. Martin and Mr. Thorne, and he was not employed on any other basis--just for that particular thing.

**Not permanently.

*Not permanently--just for that particular thing, despite the fact that he did give advice on other business of mine. Of course, I needed an attorney in my dealings with the Commission that's what he told me--that I needed an attorney to deal with the Commission.

Mr. GOPADZE. She said----

Mr. RANKIN. She said more than that.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Now, as I feel now, I don't need any lawyer before the Commission.

Senator COOPER. If you'll just answer my question now: Do you have a lawyer to represent you now?*

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator COOPER. Who is your business agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mrs. Katya Ford.

Senator COOPER. Can you tell the Commission about how much money has been donated to you or how much you have earned through contracts?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know at this time how much money I have.

Senator COOPER. Approximately?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Donations were $57,000, from which twelve and one-half thousand plus expenses were paid to Martin and Thorne, and $15,000 to Mr. McKenzie.

Senator COOPER. Do you have any contracts, have you made any contracts for the sale of your writings which may be payable in the future?* **

Mrs. OSWALD. The publishing company contract with me is all.

*I have not signed any contracts with the publishing company, except I have already signed several contracts with Life Magazine.

After the diary was published.

**After the diary was published.

Senator COOPER. That's for $20,000?

Mrs. OSWALD. $20,000 plus $1,000 for Parade Magazine, and one girl--Helen--I don't know her last name, I know we did----

*Also, I signed--I agreed with a girl by the name of Helen--I cannot remember her last name, for possible future stories Helen might write.

We have interview.

Senator COOPER. You testified that your uncle is an official and a Colonel in the MVD?* ** And, a member of the Communist Party, is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Do you know that any other members of your family are members of the Communist Party?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. The husband of another aunt.

Senator COOPER. Is that the aunt you visited from time to time?* **

**Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator COOPER. At Kharkov?

Mrs. OSWALD. At Minsk.

Senator COOPER. With whom did you file your declaration for an exit visa?** *

*Mrs. OSWALD. There is a special institution in Minsk where prospective departees filed application for exit visa. They leave the application in that institution, and that institution transmits it to Moscow where the decision is made whether to grant or to deny the exit permit. The reply then comes to the MVD in Minsk.

*I want to assure the Commission that I was never given any assignment by the Soviet Government or the American Government, and that I was so surprised myself that I got the exit visa.

Senator COOPER. When you talked to Colonel Aksenov, what did he tell you when you asked him about the exit visa?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. When I went to see Colonel Aksenov, I went to ask him about the state in which my application is for exit visa, and he replied----

Mr. GOPADZE. No. "Was it favorable or not," and he said it was favorable.

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, and he said----

Mr. GOPADZE. That it takes official process of getting the answer.

*Mrs. OSWALD. He said, "You are not the only one who is seeking exit permit, and so you have to wait your turn."

Senator COOPER. Did he attempt to discourage you from seeking the exit visa?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator COOPER. Did Lee Oswald ever express any opinion to you as to why he thought an exit visa might be granted to you and your daughter?

*Mrs. OSWALD. He encouraged me and he thought that I would consider that he exerted every effort on his part for me to get this exit. Maybe he just was saying that that way, but never hoped that actually I would get the exit permit.

Senator COOPER. During that time or at any other time, did Lee ever say to you that he might do some work for the Soviet Union if you did return to the United States?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He did not.

Senator COOPER. I would like to turn to your testimony about your knowledge of the rifle that Lee possessed. Now, as I remember your testimony, you stated that you first learned that he had the rifle early in 1963.*

*Mrs. OSWALD. In the year that he bought it, I learned it.

Senator COOPER. You had seen him clean it, you had watched him sight the rifle in New Orleans and work the bolt?* **

Mr. GREGORY. In New Orleans?

Senator COOPER. Yes; in your testimony, you said you saw him sitting on the little back porch----

Mrs. OSWALD. On the little back porch--yes.

Senator COOPER. And sight the rifle?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I'm sorry, I might be mixed up.

Senator COOPER. When you testified that you believed he did some target practice at least a few times?

*Mrs. OSWALD. In Dallas or New Orleans?* **

*Yes; when we lived on Neely Street.

Senator COOPER. He told you that he had used this rifle to fire at General Walker?*

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator COOPER. He told you he had threatened Vice President Nixon, you had said?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He did not say "Vice President Nixon," he just said "Nixon."

Senator COOPER. Now, was it your opinion throughout these months that he was keeping this rifle for his purpose of using it again, firing at some individual, perhaps an official of the United States Government?* **

Mrs. OSWALD. **He never expressed himself.

*When the assassination of President Kennedy took place, I was asking people whether--people in general--whether General Walker was with President Kennedy. It perhaps was a silly question, but I thought that he----

Senator COOPER. Listen to my question: During this time, didn't you have the opinion that he was keeping possession of this rifle and practicing with it for the purpose of using it to shoot at some individual, and perhaps an official of the United States Government?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I never thought--I was afraid to think that he would do anything like that until the shooting of General Walker occurred.

Senator COOPER. But now my question. After that--the continued possession----* **

**Mrs. OSWALD. After the attempting of the killing of General Walker, I thought he might do it, but I didn't visualize that he could do anything like that.

Senator COOPER. When you testified before the Commission, you said--generally--you didn't think Lee would repeat anything like that--"Generally, I knew that the rifle was very tempting for him".

"Very tempting for him"--what did you mean by that, about the rifle being very tempting for him? Did you believe he might be tempted to shoot at someone else?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I was afraid that he did have temptation to kill someone else.

Senator COOPER. Mrs. Oswald, you testified that when you talked to Lee after he had shot at General Walker, or told you he had shot at General Walker, he said that it would have been well if someone had killed Hitler because many lives would be saved, is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator COOPER. After that, you testified that many times or a number of times he read you articles about President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Senator COOPER. And said at one time, discussing President Kennedy's father, that he had made his money through wine and he had a great deal of money, and that enabled him to educate his sons and to give them a start.

I want you to remember and tell the Commission if he did ever express any hatred or dislike for President Kennedy. You have several times--not changed--but you have told the Commission things you did not tell them when first asked.

Now, if he did speak to you about President Kennedy, we think you should tell the Commission?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think he ever expressed hatred toward President Kennedy, but perhaps he expressed jealousy, not only jealousy, but envy, but perhaps he envied, because he said, "Whoever has money has it easy." That was his general attitude. It was not a direct quotation.

Representative BOGGS. Pursuing this--I asked you that very question in Washington back in February, and the answer was "No." I asked you whether or not your husband ever expressed hostility toward President Kennedy--is your answer still "No"?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. My answer is "No."

**He never expressed himself anything against President Kennedy, anything detrimental toward him. What I told them generally before, I am repeating now too.

Representative BOGGS. Did he ever indicate to you, except in the Walker situation where he said he'd shot at General Walker, that he would kill anyone?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Representative BOGGS. What about Nixon?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He did tell me he was about ready to commit that particular act, with respect to Nixon. That's when I kept him in the bathroom, but he never said, "Well, today it's Walker and then I'm going to kill someone else." He never said that. He never related to me any of his plans about killing anybody.

*In other words, he never said to me, "Now, I'll kill Walker and then I'll kill this fellow" and so on--he never did.

Senator COOPER. You testified that your husband said that he did not like the United States for several reasons; one, because of certain Fascist organizations; two, because of difficulty of securing employment; and another reason--because of the high cost of medical care. Did he ever say that those things that he did not like could be remedied or changed if an official of the Government were done away with?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; he never told me.

**No; he never told me--he never told me.

Senator COOPER. Did any official of the Soviet Union, or any person who was a Soviet citizen, ever talk to you or ever talk to Lee to your knowledge, during the time that you were in the United States?

Mr. GREGORY. At any time before or after?

Senator COOPER. Yes?

Senator RUSSELL. You said--in the United States, didn't you?

Senator COOPER. Yes; in the United States.*

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; no one ever did. The only time Lee talked with a representative of the Soviet Union was in Mexico, but not me and Lee, we were never approached by the Soviet representatives.

Senator COOPER. When was the first time you ever heard of Police Officer Tippit?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. When there was a broadcast over the radio that Officer Tippit was killed.

Senator COOPER. Have you seen Mrs. Paine since the time you left her home after the assassination?*

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

I saw her twice since I left Irving, since I lived with her in Irving.

Senator COOPER. When was that?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. Once, when I lived with Katya Ford in February of this year, and the next time I do not recall--maybe 1 month later.

In my house.

Senator COOPER. You had quite an association with her, and I need not recall all of the facts, but is there any reason now that you do not wish to see her?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. One of the reasons is that she belongs to the Civil Liberties Union and I don't want to get mixed up in anything. I already have plenty of grief.

Senator COOPER. Just one other question--is there any other fact about this subject, which you have been asked by the Commission or by anyone else that you have knowledge of that you have not told us about it? Any fact that would bear on this inquiry?* **

*Mrs. OSWALD. I would be glad to, but I don't know of any.

Representative BOGGS. May I just ask one or two questions?

Have you seen Mrs. Marguerite Oswald at any time since you first appeared before the Commission?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Representative BOGGS. Have you heard from her?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Representative BOGGS. You've had no communication from her either directly or indirectly?* **

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

*She tried to get in touch with me.

**Through Attorney McKenzie.

Representative BOGGS. And you refused to see her?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

*I think that she may have been bad influence with the children--improper influence with the children.

**I feel that--I hardly believe--that Lee Oswald really tried to kill President Kennedy.

Mrs. OSWALD. I feel in my own mind that Lee did not have President Kennedy as a prime target when he assassinated him.

Representative BOGGS. Well, who was it?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was Connally. That's my personal opinion that he perhaps was shooting at Governor Connally, the Governor of Texas.

Senator RUSSELL. You've testified before us before that Lee told you he was coming back to Texas--if he was back in Texas, he would vote for Connally for Governor. Why do you think he would shoot him?

Mrs. OSWALD. **I feel that the reason that he had Connally in his mind was on account of his discharge from the Marines and various letters they exchanged between the Marine Corps and the Governor's office, but actually, I didn't think that he had any idea concerning President Kennedy.

Representative BOGGS. Well, now, my next question is--did he ever express any hostility to Governor Connally?*

*Mrs. OSWALD. He never expressed that to me--his displeasure or hatred of Connally, but I feel that there could have been some connection, due to the fact that Lee was dishonorably discharged from the Corps, and there was an exchange of letters between the Governor's Office and Lee. That's my personal opinion.

Representative BOGGS. Just a minute. Excuse me, Senator.

I asked you in February, Mrs. Oswald, I said, "What motive would you ascribe to your husband in killing President Kennedy?" And, you said, "As I saw the documents that were being read to me, I came to the conclusion that he wanted by any means, good or bad to get into history, and now that I've read a part of the translation of some of the documents, I think that there was some political foundation to it, a foundation of which I am not aware."