Chapter XXIII: Section 349: (a) states, "From and after the effective date of this Act, (3)

Mr. SNYDER. This simply tells the Department that the press is onto the case, and that they can expect something from Moscow on it. The Department hates to be caught by surprise, they hate to read something in the newspapers before they have gotten it back home. And I am simply telling them that the Moscow press corps is aware of Oswald's presence, and that there would likely be some dispatches from the press from Moscow on the case.

Representative FORD. That doesn't mean the Embassy informed the press?

Mr. SNYDER. Oh, no.

Representative FORD. How did you know the press had been informed?

Mr. SNYDER. Again right at the moment, I cannot say. At what stage--Priscilla Johnson, I think, was one of the first to be aware of Oswald. Just how she became aware of him, and just where I became aware of her knowledge of him, I don't quite know. But this, I think, was quite early in the game.

Representative FORD. Was he given much attention by the press in Moscow?

Mr. SNYDER. I cannot really speak with great authority on the point. I don't think so. This is based on several things.

One, there was very little about Oswald, I think, at the time other than what was sent in by Priscilla Johnson.

Secondly, I believe that Oswald himself had declined to talk to some other press persons of the American press corps.

Priscilla, as I recall, was the only one who seemed to have an entree to him.

Representative FORD. But you did not inform the American press in Moscow of Oswald?

Mr. SNYDER. No.

Representative FORD. Did you ever talk to any of the American press or any other of the press, about Oswald at this time?

Mr. SNYDER. No; not that I recall, Mr. Ford. It was my normal practice not to discuss cases of this kind. They were occurring all the time in Moscow. If it wasn't one kind it was another. And it was my practice not to discuss the details of such cases with the press simply because the cases--each one being different in any event--the cases were always ticklish. And every little bit helped or hurt in a case of this kind. And the consul needed, to the extent possible, to minimize the forces acting on the case, so that--and the press understood this very well.

Representative FORD. Were you familiar with his interview with Miss Mosby?

Mr. SNYDER. I don't recall that I was. I knew that Priscilla Johnson had seen him and had been seeing him.

But I don't recall that I was aware that Ellie Mosby had seen him.

Representative FORD. You were acquainted with Miss Mosby as well as Priscilla Johnson?

Mr. SNYDER. Oh, yes; very well.

Representative FORD. Are any of these stories that these correspondents write on these defector cases ever checked out with your office, or people, in corresponding position?

Mr. SNYDER. Normally not, I would say.

Representative FORD. Were you at all aware of the 5,000 rubles that Oswald was given by Soviet authorities or by an agency of the Soviet Union which is sometimes called, I guess, the Red Cross? Are you at all aware of that?

Mr. SNYDER. No.

Representative FORD. Are you aware of that organization in the Soviet Union?

Mr. SNYDER. Oh, yes.

Representative FORD. Would you describe it for us, as far as you know what it is?

Mr. SNYDER. Well----

Representative FORD. 5,000 rubles--excuse me.

Mr. SNYDER. This was the old rubles at that time. No; I don't----

Mr DULLES. For the record, what was the date of the change in the value of the ruble? I think I remember it. It was around 1960--May-June of 1960, I think.

When it went into effect, I don't remember.

Mr. SNYDER. I am sorry, I don't either, Mr. Dulles. It was during my term there. It seemed to me it was in the second half of my tour in Moscow. But I cannot really recall.

Mr. DULLES. I think somewhere in the record that ought to appear. I have an idea it was May of 1960.

Mr. EHRLICH. January 1, 1961.

Mr. DULLES. That is when it went into effect?

Mr. EHRLICH. It was officially revalued.

Mr. DULLES. January 1, 1961--let the record show that--the ruble was revalued, so that it took about 10 rubles to make 1 new ruble.

Representative FORD. So 5,000 rubles in 1959 was not an inconsequential amount.

Mr. SNYDER. Oh, no.

Mr. DULLES. It wasn't very much.

Mr. SNYDER. No; but 5,000 rubles at that time was probably two-thirds to three-quarters of the monthly salary of an average Soviet worker.

Representative FORD. Could you describe----

Mr. DULLES. About $500, isn't it, roughly--10 to 1 in those days?

Mr. SNYDER. Wait a minute; yes.

Mr. DULLES. It was a considerable sum.

Representative FORD. It would be more than a month's salary, then.

Mr. SNYDER. Yes; an average month's salary at the time was about 750 rubles, something around there.

Mr. DULLES. I think the legal rate was 20 cents, but the sort of going rate was around 10, I think. I think you could buy tourist rubles around 10, as I recall--10 to the dollar. The legal rate, I think, was 5 to the dollar.

Mr. SNYDER. No; I think the legal rate was 10 to a dollar, Mr. Dulles.

Mr. CHAYES. In the same letter that states the date, which we supplied to the Commission at the Commission's request, it states that the legal rate was 4 to 1 until January 1961. But that was the official rate.

Mr. DULLES. I understand.

Mr. SNYDER. There were different rates. The official rate was not the rate which was used for all things. For instance, we got 10 to 1 for our rubles. The so-called official rate was used, for instance, in clearing foreign trade accounts and this sort of thing.

Representative FORD. Can you tell us your impression of this so-called Red Cross in the Soviet Union?

Mr. SNYDER. Well, again, I cannot speak of--about the Soviet Red Cross with any great personal knowledge. It is not a Red Cross organization in quite the sense in which we know it. It is clearly an organ of the State in a totalitarian state, which means it is not an independent organization, and its policies flow from the policy of the state, and of the central committee.

I don't think that the Soviet Red Cross conducts public fund-raising campaigns, for instance, in the way ours does.

It also is not an organization to which an individual might turn routinely for assistance as he might in our society.

Since the Soviet State does not admit that there is need in the Soviet Union, that there can be poverty or difficulty for which there are not organizations already in existence who are fully competent to deal with such problems, since they don't admit this kind of a situation--they also do not admit of public welfare organs in a sense such as the Red Cross.

Representative FORD. Do you know of any other cases during your period of service there where there were payments by this organization to American citizens, or Americans, those who had given up or tried to give up or failed to give up their citizenship?

Mr. SNYDER. No, sir; as a matter of fact, the only way in which the Soviet Red Cross impinged upon my experience in Moscow was that they were the organ for handling whereabouts inquiries of persons living in the Soviet Union. If an American citizen wrote to the Embassy asking our assistance in locating a relative in the Soviet Union, this inquiry would go from us to the Soviet Red Cross, who was charged under the Soviet system of things with actually checking into it and letting us know if they felt that was in their interest. This was the only way in which the Soviet Red Cross impinged upon us.

I do recall on a few occasions advising persons who had come into the Embassy in one way or another and who were in dire need that they go to the Soviet Red Cross.

But the reaction of such persons indicated to me that they felt the Soviet Red Cross was not the place to go.

Mr. COLEMAN. Mr. Snyder, had you ever heard, while you were in the Embassy in Moscow, the secret police referred to as the Red Cross?

Mr. SNYDER. No.

Mr. COLEMAN. You never heard the MVD, for example, referred to in that way?

Mr. SNYDER. No; to my knowledge--I mean there is an organization called the Soviet Red Cross, which carries on at least in the international sphere some of the normal activities of international Red Cross organizations.

The big point of departure is that they on the one hand are not independent organizations as they are in free societies, but they are an organ of the state. And, secondly, I do not think they have the same role internally that our Red Cross organizations do.

Mr. DULLES. Have you heard of it being used in other instances for what might be called extraneous payments--that is, payments not related to Red Cross work?

Mr. SNYDER. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Is there a policy that you were familiar with, as far as the Soviet Union was concerned, for permitting a person to apply for and be given Soviet citizenship?

Mr. SNYDER. Oh, yes; there is a well-defined way of acquiring Soviet citizenship under Soviet law.

Representative FORD. Was Oswald familiar with that, as you could tell from your conversation with him?

Mr. SNYDER. Well, he obviously was familiar with what one does. That is, he had made application to the Supreme Soviet, which is what one does.

Representative FORD. Did he tell you that?

Mr. SNYDER. Oh, yes.

Representative FORD. He did?

Mr. SNYDER. Yes, sir; this is not something which is common knowledge. One would have to have inquired and found out, and had someone show you or give you the proper form on which to make application, and tell you where to address it, and this sort of thing.

Representative FORD. What did he tell you had happened when he did that?

Mr. SNYDER. All he said was that he had made application.

Representative FORD. He didn't indicate the application had been processed and approved?

Mr. SNYDER. No; I cannot recall what our conversation was on that score. It was quite clear that he had not received Soviet citizenship.

But, also, I would not have expected him to receive it that early in the game. I mean, for one thing the Supreme Soviet does not act on these things on a continuing basis, but acts upon them periodically.

Representative FORD. En masse, so to speak?

Mr. SNYDER. That is right. It has them on its calendar. So many times a year it acts on petitions for Soviet citizenship, presumably.

Presumably before it is sent to the Supreme Soviet with a favorable recommendation by the various Government organs, a thorough investigation is made by MVD and other organs, and various officials presumably at different levels have got to stick their necks out and recommend he be accepted--that sort of thing.

Representative FORD. If you had known that Oswald was in Minsk, what would your reaction have been?

Mr. SNYDER. Serves him right.

Representative FORD. Why do you say that?

Mr. SNYDER. You have never been in Minsk.

Well, in the first place, my own feeling is that there is no better medicine for someone who imagines he likes the Soviet Union than to live there awhile.

Representative FORD. In Minsk?

Mr. SNYDER. Any place.

Representative FORD. I am more particularly interested in Minsk.

Mr. SNYDER. But provincial towns in the Soviet Union are a very large step below the capital, and the capital, believe me, is a fairly good-sized step down from any American populated place.

But the difference between large cities and minor cities, and between minor cities and villages, is a tremendous step backward in time. And to live in Minsk, or any other provincial city in the Soviet Union, is a pretty grim experience to someone who has lived in our society--not necessarily American, but simply in western society. It might be just the same if he lived in Denmark, or some place. I mean to land up in Minsk, working in a grubby little factory is quite a comedown.

Representative FORD. Have you ever been in Minsk?

Mr. SNYDER. I spent about an hour walking around Minsk, between trains, one time.

Representative FORD. Is there anything significant about him being sent to Minsk, as far as you are concerned?

Mr. SNYDER. No, no; the only pattern that I would discern is that it is in all cases to my knowledge--all cases of which I have had knowledge, the invariable pattern of the Soviets is to send defectors somewhere outside of the capital city--to settle them in some city other than Moscow. There have been some minor exceptions to this.

What is the name--the British defector, and the two foreign office men Burgess and McLean. McLean lives or did live, until his death, just on the outskirts of Moscow.

Mr. DULLES. McLean is still alive.

Mr. SNYDER. Pardon me--Burgess. Is Burgess the one married to an American?

Mr. DULLES. Philby is married to an American.

Mr. SNYDER. One of the two, Burgess or McLean, is married to an American.

Mr. DULLES. McLean is.

Mr. SNYDER. I had an interview with McLean's mother-in-law at the Embassy. At any rate, this was one exception.

Representative FORD. It has been alleged that in Minsk there are certain training schools for foreigners, or possibly for citizens of the Soviet Union. Are you at all familiar with that? Is there any information you have on it?

Mr. SNYDER. No; I have not, Mr. Ford.

Representative FORD. Did you ever contact any Soviet officials about Oswald at the time of this first interview?

Mr. SNYDER. No.

Representative FORD. Is that unusual or is that usual?

Mr. SNYDER. It is usual.

Representative FORD. In other words, you, in your capacity, would not normally contact a Soviet official about someone such as Oswald?

Mr. SNYDER. That is right; yes, sir. In other words, there is nothing at that stage of the game which--for which I would have any reason to go to the Soviet authorities.

Representative FORD. Even the fact that he had a visa 5 days overdue?

Mr. SNYDER. Well, of course, I am already aware in a sense and am acting under my awareness that he is living under controlled circumstances. He is not simply living in a hotel and nobody knows about it. That he is in contact with Soviet authorities, and is there with their knowledge and consent. So that----

Representative FORD. It is implied consent, even though it may not be official as far as the documents are concerned?

Mr. SNYDER. Well, actually, the document itself is quite eloquent on this subject, I think. There is the very negative fact that his visa is 5 days overdue, and he is still there--that speaks pretty loudly for the fact that he is living there without a valid visa, at least without a valid visa in his passport, with the knowledge and consent of the Soviet authorities. It could hardly be otherwise.

Representative FORD. Mr. Dulles, we have a quorum call over on the floor of the House. I will have to leave. Will you take over as Chairman? I will be back shortly.

Mr. DULLES. Very gladly. I have one or two questions.

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. DULLES. Is there any question as to whether a minor can renounce his nationality?

Mr. SNYDER. To my knowledge, there is not. To my knowledge----

Mr. DULLES. I will withdraw that question and ask Mr. Chayes that when it comes, because that probably is a matter for him rather than for you.

Does the Embassy in Moscow have any facility for learning about or finding out about errant American citizens, or any American citizens that are wandering around Russia? Do they register at the Embassy?

Mr. DULLES. They may.

Mr. DULLES. There is not a requirement?

Mr. SNYDER. No; as a matter of fact, most do. Most that are in Moscow do stop in.

Mr. DULLES. There is a book in the Embassy that they can come in and sign?

Mr. SNYDER. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Oswald did not sign in the book, I gather.

Mr. SNYDER. I don't think he would; no. There would be no need for him to. He came into the Embassy and spoke to an officer, which is a higher form of registration in a sense.

Mr. DULLES. For the record, how long was it after his arrival in Moscow that he reported to the Embassy?

Mr. COLEMAN. He arrived on October 16, and he didn't go into the Embassy until October 31.

Mr. DULLES. That was about the time his visa--his permission to stay was going to expire?

Mr. COLEMAN. His permission to stay as designated on his visa had already expired.

Mr. DULLES. Was that a 12-day?

Mr. COLEMAN. He was in the Soviet Union 15 days before he went to the American Embassy.

Mr. DULLES. How long was his permit good for?

Mr. COLEMAN. His permit was good for 6 days.

Mr. DULLES, Only 6 days? You, of course, get no word from the Soviet Union when they give visas to Americans to come into the country.

Mr. SNYDER. Oh, no, no; we get no cooperation from the Soviet authorities on anything concerning American citizens--excepting in circumstances where they desire the Embassy's help. A citizen gets sick while he is traveling in the Soviet Union, and they want the Embassy assistance in some way or other. But even in such cases, surprisingly often, we do not hear from the Soviet authorities. We hear from the traveler himself, somehow, but not from the authorities.

Mr. DULLES. Am I correct in my understanding that the State Department, having issued a valid passport for travel abroad, had no way of knowing whether the owner of that passport is going to the Soviet Union or not?

Mr. SNYDER. Well, no.

Mr. DULLES. They have no way of knowing? So they have no way of informing you about it?

Mr. SNYDER. No.

Mr. DULLES. I think there is a misunderstanding by a great many American people that there are certain countries that are named on the passport, which at one time I think was the case, but no longer is. As I recall it now an American passport was only stamped "Not good for Hungary," as I believe Oswald's passport was stamped. That has been changed, has it not.

Mr. SNYDER. These stamps are changed a little from time to time.

Mr. DULLES. I will ask Mr. Chayes that question.

Mr. SNYDER. Hungary, North Korea, North Vietnam, and China----

Mr. COLEMAN. Now Cuba.

Mr. DULLES. Could I see that passport for a moment? I think at this particular time this passport was issued, I thought the only stamp was Hungary.

Mr. SNYDER. I think there must have been others, and Hungary was added after 1946.

Mr. DULLES. I will just read this.

"This passport is not valid for travel to the following areas under the control of authorities with which the United States does not have diplomatic relations: Albania, Bulgaria, and those portions of China, Korea, and Vietnam under Communist control."

Now, that speaks as of--this is a printed notice in the passport, and that speaks as of the date of issue of the passport, September 10, 1959. And then there is a stamp--I guess that is printed on the passport--also printed, in a special box, "This passport is not valid for travel in Hungary."

Mr. CHAYES. And then that is superimposed with a void stamp when we took Hungary off the list of restricted areas.

Mr. DULLES. Right. I don't know whether that void stamp was put on in 1959--but it is not important as far as we are concerned.

In any event, this passport, as I understand, is perfectly good to travel to Russia without any notification to the State Department, is that correct?

Mr. SNYDER. Oh, yes.

Mr. COLEMAN. I should state for the record, sir, actually the application which Oswald filed on September 4, 1959, included Russia as a place where he intended to visit.

Mr. CHAYES. On the other hand, the State Department has no mechanism for notifying posts abroad of ordinary travel to those countries.

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if it would not be a convenience to you if in the case, let's say, of the Soviet Union, or possibly other Communist countries, just as a routine matter they took off this note from the passport so you would have some record there if anything turned up that this fellow had said he was going to Russia. Maybe that would involve administrative work.

Mr. SNYDER. I can't see what value this would be to a consul.

Mr. DULLES. Well, if a fellow got into trouble you would turn to his records alphabetically and you would find Lee Harvey Oswald in his application said he was going to go to Russia.

Mr. SNYDER. You mean if he gets in trouble in Russia?

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. SNYDER. If he gets in trouble in Russia, we know he is there.

Mr. DULLES. You might; you might not. They don't always tell you. You don't think that would be of any particular value, though?

Mr. SNYDER. No; I don't, Mr. Dulles. Under any circumstances under which it was useful to the Embassy to know whether a person had said he was coming there, we can have the information by cable within 24 hours. So to attempt--it would seem to me--to attempt to notify embassies abroad----

Mr. DULLES. I am not saying embassies abroad. I am saying the Soviet Union.

Mr. SNYDER. But why the Soviet Union and not Poland, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria?

Mr. DULLES. I said the Communist countries, I think, before. I certainly would not do it for Britain, France, and friendly countries. There is no point.

Mr. SNYDER. This would involve a clerical job of major magnitude which from the Embassy's point of view I don't see that it would serve any purpose.

Mr. DULLES. Well, if a young man 20 years old just out of the Marines says he is going to the Soviet Union, isn't that of some significance?

Mr. SNYDER. Not necessarily. I mean in terms of the thousands of people--thousands of Americans who flutter back and forth across the face of the earth----

Mr. DULLES. I am not talking about people floating back and forth across the earth. I am talking about people going to the Soviet Union.

Mr. SNYDER. In other words, if I had looked at Oswald's application at the time he made it, knowing nothing else about it than he had just gotten out of the Marines, I would not think it was so terribly unusual, or of great interest to me that this young boy is taking a trip to a number of western European countries, including the Soviet Union. Nor would there be anything in such knowledge which would in any way I think trigger any action on my part.

Mr. DULLES. Do you have any special instructions other than the ones that you have referred to about the handling of those that renounce their citizenship, or have you covered that, do you think, quite fully? Are there any special instructions that the Embassy in Moscow prescribed?

Mr. SNYDER. No.

Mr. DULLES. There are none?

Mr. SNYDER. No; there are none; no, sir. This sort of thing is down to the meat of the consular officer's job. That is, he is out on his own pretty much on something of this sort. He has got to use his judgment, and such experience as he has, and such commonsense as he has.

Mr. DULLES. He has got to know the law, too--he has to know the law and regulations.

Mr. SNYDER. Oh, yes; if you don't know, the first thing you do is look up the regulation and the law and see what your basic requirement is.

In renunciation cases, it is a fairly simple matter--that is, for the consular officer, as far as the law is concerned. He doesn't have a large body of law. He has a specific law which tells him exactly what the conditions are for renouncing citizenship, and that is it.

Mr. DULLES. I differ from you a little bit, in the sense that I don't think if a young fellow 20 years old came in to me and wanted to renounce his citizenship, and if I were doing consular work, as I was at one time--I think I would feel that that was a pretty--rather a tough one to handle.

Mr. SNYDER. I don't say it is not tough to handle. What I meant to say was that the legal basis under which the consul, or within which the consul has to operate----

Mr. DULLES. I will talk to Mr. Chayes about the problem of a minor doing that.

Mr. SNYDER. From the consular's point of view it is a fairly simple one. It doesn't require a lot of legal research.

Mr. CHAYES. Just to have that in the record at this point the statute provides very clearly on the age problem, section 351(b) of the act provides that below 18 years the act specified--the citizen shall not be deemed to have expatriated himself by the commission prior to his 18th birthday of any of the acts specified in paragraphs 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6.

Mr. DULLES. That includes renunciation?

Mr. CHAYES. Yes, 6 is renunciation. But he has to assert--within 6 months after obtaining the age of 18 years--he has to assert his claim to U.S. nationality, in order to get this automatically. But I would think the courts would go further and hold that, especially where volunteerism is involved, as in renunciation, below 18 years is the cutoff point--not 21. It used to be 21, but the Congress reduced the age limit to 18.

Mr. DULLES. Well, that covers the point here. Was there anything about the Oswald case in the Soviet press at any time to your knowledge?

Mr. SNYDER. To my knowledge, there was not, Mr. Dulles.

Mr. DULLES. And the Soviet authorities have given you no information about Oswald that hasn't been communicated to us? You have no other information at all from the Soviet authorities about Oswald?

Mr. SNYDER. No, sir; I never communicated with the Soviet authorities about Oswald in any form, nor did they ever ask me anything about him.

Mr. DULLES. And you don't know any of the other circumstances under which his case was reconsidered after his attempted cutting of his wrists and suicide? You don't know what channels that went through in the Soviet Union?

Mr. SNYDER. I was not aware of this element of the case.

Mr. DULLES. You were not aware, of course, at that time of this element of the case. Do you know what intourist guides were in charge of him?

Mr. SNYDER. No.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know any other case during the period when you were in Moscow of an American who had married a Soviet wife and was given an exist visa as quickly and as easily as Oswald and Marina were given theirs?

Mr. SNYDER. I don't know offhand whether Marina Oswald got her visa, her exit visa, that quickly and easily.

Mr. DULLES. Well, I think that is a matter of record--when she applied and when she got it.

Mr. COLEMAN. The American visa----

Mr. DULLES. This is the Soviet exit visa.

Mr. COLEMAN. You are talking about the Soviet passport? She applied for her passport----

Mr. DULLES. It is a visa to get out.

Mr. SNYDER. It is both. She needs a Soviet passport. They are issued at the same time.

Mr. DULLES. That is correct.

Mr. COLEMAN. She applied for her Soviet passport in July 1961, and she was informed that it would be issued to her approximately on December 25, 1961.

Mr. DULLES. About 6 months. Do you know of any case where that has been accomplished in 6 months, other than this case, during your period there? I don't think I ought to ask you about any period other than the period you were in the Soviet Union.

Mr. SNYDER. I think that a review perhaps of a few other of the cases of American citizens marrying Soviet girls during the time I was there might show that 6 months is not a terribly short period. There isn't, again, any standard for things like this. In the first place, so much depends upon the local officials in the beginning of the thing, and whether they drag their feet or don't, and how much pressure they put on the girl to talk her out of it, and all of this sort of business.

My offhand feeling is that 6 months is not an unusually short period of time, but it certainly is getting down to about probably the minimum of our experience with such things.

Mr. DULLES. That is all I have, Mr. Witness.

Mr. COLEMAN. Mr. Chairman, at this time I would like to offer for the record Commission Exhibits 908 through 940 except for Exhibit 911, which we didn't identify.

Mr. DULLES. Let me take these one at a time.

Exhibits Nos. 908 through 940, except for Exhibit No. 911, shall be admitted.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 908-910, and 912-940 were received in evidence.)

Mr. DULLES. Now, for the record, what about these two numbers that are omitted?

Mr. COLEMAN. When Mr. McVickar testifies he will be able to identify the documents.

Mr. DULLES. You will have these admitted at a later date?

Mr. COLEMAN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Now, the second category you wanted to have admitted.

Mr. COLEMAN. I would like to also offer into evidence Commission Exhibit 946 which is the Oswald passport.

Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted.

(The document referred, to heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 946 for identification, was admitted into evidence.)

Mr. COLEMAN. I offer for the record Commission Exhibit No. 947 which is the second copy of the passport renewal application, which has been identified after lunch.

Mr. DULLES. And Exhibit No. 947, the passport application, shall be admitted.

(The document referred to, heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 947 for identification, was admitted into evidence.)

Mr. COLEMAN. I have no further questions, sir.

Mr. DULLES. We are just starting with a new witness. Won't you go ahead.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. I want to thank you very much, Mr. Snyder. It has been very helpful to us.

Mr. SNYDER. I hope it has.

(Discussion off the record.)

TESTIMONY OF JOHN A. McVICKAR

Mr. COLEMAN. Mr. John A. McVickar, who is presently principal officer, American Consulate in Cochabamba, Bolivia, was consul in the American Embassy in Moscow in 1959, until at least the middle of 1961.

Mr. McVickar will be asked to testify concerning Oswald's appearance at the Embassy in October 1959, when Oswald announced his intention to renounce his American citizenship.

Mr. McVickar will also be asked to testify concerning his interview of Marina Oswald when she applied for a visa in July of 1961, and his actions in connection with securing a waiver of section 243(g) of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952, with respect to Marina Oswald.

Mr. McVickar will also be examined on two memoranda which he has provided the State Department since the assassination of President Kennedy.

At this time I would ask the Chairman to swear Mr. McVickar.

Representative FORD. Mr. McVickar, will you stand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Mr. McVICKAR. I do, so help me God.

Mr. COLEMAN. Mr. McVickar, will you state your full name for the record?

Mr. McVICKAR. John Anthony McVickar.

Mr. COLEMAN. That is spelled M-c-V-i-c-k-a-r?

Mr. McVICKAR. I have given the court reporter here my card.

Mr. COLEMAN. And what is your present address?

Mr. McVICKAR. American consulate, Cochabamba, Bolivia.

Mr. COLEMAN. What was your position with the American Embassy in Moscow in the fall of 1959?

Mr. McVICKAR. I was one of two officers in the consular section of the Embassy.

Mr. COLEMAN. How long did you remain in Moscow?

Mr. McVICKAR. I was there from June of 1959, until September of 1961.

Mr. COLEMAN. I take it you have been shown a copy of the Congressional resolution with respect to the formation of this Committee?

Mr. McVICKAR. I am not sure but I think so. With respect to this Commission?

Mr. COLEMAN. Yes.

Mr. McVICKAR. Do you want me to read it now?

Mr. COLEMAN. No, just generally have it available.

Directing your attention to the fall of 1959, did you have occasion to see or to talk to Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. McVICKAR. I had occasion to see him and to talk briefly to him. I was present in the office at the time he was interviewed by Mr. Snyder. We had an office about the size of this room with two desks in it, and Mr. Snyder's desk was at one end and mine was at the other, and we did our business in effect in the same room separately, but this was an unusual case, and I recall the man coming in and I recall parts of the conversation.

Mr. COLEMAN. Was the day he came in October 31, 1959?

Mr. McVICKAR. I couldn't say exactly but that sounds just about right.

Mr. COLEMAN. Was it a Saturday?

Mr. McVICKAR. I don't know.

Mr. COLEMAN. Do you recall what time of the day it was?

Mr. McVICKAR. I don't know. It might have been in the morning but I am not sure. I don't know for sure.

Mr. COLEMAN. Did Oswald speak to you at all or was all of his conversation with Mr. Snyder?

Mr. McVICKAR. I think all of his conversation, subsequent conversation, was with Mr. Snyder. As I recall, he said a few words to those of us who were in the office, myself and the secretary, on his way out of the office probably, but I don't really remember very much about that, if he said anything at all.

Mr. COLEMAN. Could you tell the Commission to the best of your recollection what he said to Mr. Snyder that you overheard during the conversation of October 31, 1959?

Mr. McVICKAR. In an effort to be helpful I have already, in the form of this memorandum, put everything I could remember down.

Mr. COLEMAN. Sir, are you referring to the memorandum you prepared on November 27, 1963?

Mr. McVICKAR. Yes; the two memoranda, the one of November 27, 1963, and of April 7, 1964, but, of course, I will try to recall again. As I recall, he came into the office, and in a rather truculent fashion gave Mr. Snyder his passport and said that he wanted to renounce his American citizenship, and he was unusually nasty about it, and he then--Mr. Snyder talked with him for about I would say maybe an hour, in an effort to draw him out I think. The reasons that he gave were that he was very angry at the United States and that he was no longer under the illusion that we had a good system in the United States. He had seen capitalism and imperialism in operation, and I think that he referred to his tour in the Marine Corps, and I think to--possibly he was stationed in Okinawa.

I think that he did seem to know something about the renunciation process, and it was almost as though he was trying to bait the consul into taking an adverse action against him.

He mentioned that he knew certain classified things in connection with having been I think a radar operator in the Marine Corps, and that he was going to turn this information over to the Soviet authorities. And, of course, we didn't know how much he knew or anything like that, but this obviously provoked a rather negative reaction among us Americans in the consulate section. I don't think I probably can recall anything more than that for sure.

Mr. COLEMAN. Sir, I take it at the time that Mr. Oswald was in the Embassy in 1959 that you did not prepare a memorandum at that time?

Mr. McVICKAR. No; because it was not my responsibility. I did prepare a memorandum which I have a copy of here, some time later with respect to a conversation I had with the correspondent, Priscilla Johnson, who had been at that time, as of November 17, 1959, in contact with Oswald, and I think she sought my guidance as to how she should handle her contacts with him, and also I think to inform the Embassy through me as to these contacts that she had had.

Mr. COLEMAN. I take it the memorandum you refer to is dated November 17, 1959?

Mr. McVICKAR. That is right.

Mr. COLEMAN. We have marked it Commission Exhibit No. 911. I will ask you whether that is a copy of the memorandum?

Mr. McVICKAR. Yes; that is a copy of the memorandum. Is it 911 or 9--excuse me--I would like to call attention to the fact that it seems to me there is an error in the date there in the second paragraph of that memorandum. It says "She told me that on Sunday May 15."

I am almost certain that would have been Sunday, November 15.

Mr. COLEMAN. Sir, in that memorandum on the second page you have a P.S., and you state that Priscilla J. told you that Oswald has been told he will be leaving the hotel at the end of this week.

Did Miss Johnson tell you that?

Mr. McVICKAR. I feel sure I wouldn't have written that if she hadn't.

Mr. COLEMAN. Do you know whether Oswald actually left the hotel the end of the week?

Mr. McVICKAR. I am not sure of the time that he left the hotel, but from what I gather from the record, that must have been about the time that he did leave the hotel and go to Minsk. As reflected in the other memorandum it was rather unclear exactly how long Oswald spent in Moscow, but I think that the record is approximately accurate here, and that this would have been about the time he would have left the hotel.

Mr. COLEMAN. According to other information which the Commission has, which happens to be Oswald's diary so we don't know how accurate it is, it is stated that he didn't leave Moscow until January 4, 1960.

Mr. McVICKAR. That is new to me.

Mr. COLEMAN. You had no such information?

Mr. McVICKAR. I had no such--this is the first time I heard that.

Mr. DULLES. He left the hotel, however, for a period, did he not? He was in the hospital for a period.

Mr. COLEMAN. No, sir; he was in the hospital before he came into the Embassy.

Mr. DULLES. That is correct.

Mr. COLEMAN. His suicide attempt was before October 31.

Mr. McVICKAR. Now it says leaving the hotel, but it doesn't say--and I think that would be all the information that would have been available at the time that I wrote that, I think the implication was that he was going to leave town as well, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he wouldn't have spent the ensuing weeks in some other place in the city of Moscow.

Mr. COLEMAN. In the P.S. you also indicated that "he will be trained in electronics." Did you get that information from Miss Johnson?

Mr. McVICKAR. Well, yes; I think so, according to this.

Mr. COLEMAN. Did she say any more than just he would be trained in electronics? Did she say what type of training he would get?

Mr. McVICKAR. I am afraid I have no more memory than what is written here. In fact, I didn't even remember that I had written this memorandum until I saw it the other day.

Mr. DULLES. Is the language "he will be trained" or "he had been trained"?

Mr. McVICKAR. "He will be," that is what I wrote.

Mr. DULLES. Is it possible that could have been a reference to past training during the Marines when he was trained in electronics?

Mr. McVICKAR. No; I suspect, that what I meant was, that he would be trained in electronics by the Soviets, but I think that this was a rather sketchy note of the conversation, and I suspect that what she would have said, was that he would be trained in or used in the field of electronics, in such a way probably that they would get the greatest benefit from his knowledge.

Mr. COLEMAN. Sir, immediately prior to the time that you had the conversation with Miss Johnson, you had had occasion, hadn't you, on November 9, 1959, to attempt to deliver a message from Oswald's half brother to Oswald?

Mr. McVICKAR. Yes; there is a note in the file to that effect, and I don't really remember that incident very well, just very vaguely. I think that I was given the assignment to attempt to deliver a message. I think the idea was that we would try to see what we could do to get this fellow to change his mind and go back to the United States.

The attitude that we took toward him was, I think, a normal one, as one might toward a very mixed up young person, probably misinformed, and so I think this was an effort to put him back in communication with his family.

Mr. COLEMAN. I would like to show you a note from the Oswald file dated November 9, 1959, which has been given Commission Exhibit No. 942, and a copy of a telegram to Oswald from John E. Pic, which has been given Commission Exhibit No. 943, and ask you, is that the telegram you attempted to deliver, and is that the note you wrote at the time when you were unable to deliver the telegram to Oswald?

Mr. McVICKAR. Yes; that is the note, and I don't necessarily recollect this telegram. It may be that it was in a sealed envelope. I cannot say that I recollect the telegram, but it certainly looks like the probable telegram that would have been delivered, that I would have attempted to deliver at that time.

Mr. COLEMAN. I take it that after October 31 of 1959, until Oswald left Moscow, that you had no further contact with Oswald?

Mr. McVICKAR. That is my recollection, yes, that I had no further contact with Oswald. I must say that a great many things did take place in that 2 years.

I, for example, did not recollect, until just the other day when I saw the file, that I had interviewed his wife. But to the best of my recollection I never laid eyes on Oswald again.

Mr. COLEMAN. I think earlier in your testimony you said that you had prepared a memorandum on November 27, 1963, in which you attempted to recall what happened when you were in the American Embassy in 1959, 1960, and 1961, is that correct?

Mr. McVICKAR. Yes.

Mr. COLEMAN. A copy of the memorandum has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 941. I want to ask you whether that is a copy of the memorandum which you prepared, and sent to Mr. Thomas Ehrlich?

Mr. McVICKAR. Yes; that is a copy of it.

Mr. COLEMAN. Now in that memorandum, on the last page, page 3, the second paragraph, you say: "In short, it seemed to me that there was a possibility that he had been in contact with others before or during his Marine Corps tour who had guided him and encouraged him in his actions."

Could you indicate to the Commission the basis for making that statement?

Mr. McVICKAR. Well, I think it is clear here, and if it isn't I should certainly say, that this last page is in the nature of speculation and an attempt to be helpful.

Now in answer to your question, he gave me the impression, and this was supported by the impressions other people seemed to have at the time through conversation, that he was a very young person to have so many ideas in his head, and to have done so much about them, in effect, in such a relatively short time, and so it occurred to some of us that it may be that he had had some coaching from somebody; but also, I must say, he was an unusual person and apparently sort of an ingrown person, and so it may be that he had conceived and carried out all these things by himself.

But I think that that paragraph in a way sums up that same idea, that it seemed that there was a possibility that he had had some guidance in carrying out this line of action.

Mr. COLEMAN. Does that also explain the sentence in the same paragraph where you say: "On the other hand, there also seemed to me to be the possibility that he was following a pattern of behavior in which he had been tutored by person or persons unknown"?

Mr. McVICKAR. Yes; the same applies.

Mr. COLEMAN. You had no independent evidence of this at all, did you?

Mr. McVICKAR. I was asked to explain this attitude I had as best I could, and I wrote another memorandum dated April 7, 1964, in which I described to go into this line of thought.

Mr. COLEMAN. Could we have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 958 a three-page memorandum from Mr. McVickar to Mr. Ehrlich, dated April 7, 1964?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 958 for identification.)

Mr. COLEMAN. Is that the memorandum you just referred to?

Mr. McVICKAR. Yes; that is the same memorandum.

Mr. COLEMAN. You say this memorandum, Commission Exhibit No. 958, was written in April 7, 1964, after you had been asked to explain your earlier statement concerning following a pattern of behavior in which he had been tutored by person or persons unknown?

Mr. McVICKAR. Yes; that is correct. I believe that the Commission asked for this clarification from the Department of State, and it was relayed out to me in Bolivia.

Mr. COLEMAN. In that memorandum you first indicated that you felt that Oswald probably would not know that Helsinki would be a good place to go to try to get a visa into Russia.

Mr. McVICKAR. Yes; I think so. It is a well enough known fact among people who are working in the Soviet Union and undoubtedly people who are associated with Soviet matters.

But I would say that it was not a commonly known fact among the ordinary run of people in the United States.

Mr. COLEMAN. You also placed some reliance upon the fact that he didn't come in under a $30 per day individual tour or he didn't join a group, is that correct?

Mr. McVICKAR. Well, now, when you say that he did not do these things, I don't know that he did not do these things. I was merely discussing the fact that the particular type of visa that he obtained might have some significance, and I went into a little bit maybe not in complete detail and maybe not knowing all of the factors, but I tried to go into a little bit of the different kinds of possibilities there might have been.

Mr. COLEMAN. Well, if it is established that Oswald got a tourist visa, then I take it that paragraph 2 of your memorandum pretty much disappears because the assumption is that he didn't get a tourist visa, is that correct?

Mr. McVICKAR. No; I don't think entirely so. I think you would have to take a look at the amount of time that it would take him to get a tourist visa or any kind of a visa.

But as I say, I can't be sure that it would be very significant. But I think it is a point, however.

Mr. DULLES. How long is the ordinary tourist visa good for?

Mr. McVICKAR. Tourist visas are usually issued for specific periods of time, specific tours. That might be a week or might be a month, and they vary in price with the length of time and where they are going, and also how many people are in the group. If you are going by yourself it is very expensive. If you are going with larger and larger groups it becomes less expensive.

Mr. COLEMAN. You also indicated in the memorandum in paragraph No. 4 that according to your experience Oswald's application to remain in the Soviet Union was relatively quickly accepted by the Soviet authorities?

Mr. McVICKAR. I think item 4 is more or less canceled out by the fact that my memory was inaccurate as to how long he had stayed in Moscow. I think that my paragraph 4 is based on my inaccurate memory that he was there for only about a week, but if he was there for much longer than that, I think that is vitiated.

Mr. COLEMAN. Assuming that he did stay the longer length of time then, I take it you don't think there is any particular significance in the fact that he was able to remain in the Soviet Union?

Mr. McVICKAR. No; I think that the length of time that he apparently was in Moscow was sufficient for them to make any bureaucratic decision.

Mr. COLEMAN. And in paragraph No. 5 you indicated that he seemed to be surprisingly competent and determined about what he was doing, considering his age and experience.

Could you indicate for the Commission just what he did which led you to that conclusion?

Mr. McVICKAR. Well, that goes back to my comment of a few minutes ago. I think his bearing and attitude was unusually confident in a very far away country where the way of doing things is very different from what it is in the United States, and considering presumably he hadn't traveled very much before, and he was very young. I think the word "competent" refers to what seems to be a rather efficiently organized chain of events which began, as I understand it, when he first applied for a passport in the United States in Los Angeles, on September 4, until his apparent appearance in Moscow about October 16, where he applied for Soviet citizenship. And it seems to me, just offhand I would say, that is a fairly well organized movement considering also that apparently he went by ship from New Orleans to Helsinki--that is what I understand--and was determined, as was very evident in everything he said when he was in the office, was determined to do what he was doing.

Mr. COLEMAN. In paragraph No. 8 of the memorandum you place some significance in the fact that he was permitted to belong to a rifle club and practice target shooting while in Minsk.

First, from where did you get that information?

Mr. McVICKAR. I apologize for that in a way. That is complete speculation, and the rifle club was something I read about in the newspaper. I cannot be very accurate about the rifle club business, and I point out in that note that it is not related to my contact with him.

Mr. COLEMAN. Do you think it would be unusual from your knowledge of life in the Soviet Union that people would belong to a rifle club and that they could practice target shooting?

Mr. McVICKAR. Yes; I would say so; yes.

Representative FORD. In other words, if it was a fact?

Mr. McVICKAR. If it was a fact.

Representative FORD. That he belonged to a rifle club and did shooting it would be unusual?

Mr. McVICKAR. It would seem to me, yes, particularly for a foreigner, but unusual in any case, I think.

Mr. DULLES. But you did not hear that either from Oswald or from his wife whom you saw later, I believe.

Mr. McVICKAR. No; I did not. It is unrelated to anything except what I heard about the case, and I don't know really about this. I just remember reading about it in the paper, that is all.

Mr. COLEMAN. After November 17, 1959, you had no more contact with Oswald until some time in July 1961, is that correct?

Mr. McVICKAR. Yes; that is right, and I believe that I didn't have any contact with him in July of 1961. I believe I only had contact with his wife.

Mr. COLEMAN. Do you speak Russian?

Mr. McVICKAR. Yes; or I did.

Mr. COLEMAN. When did his wife come in in July of 1961?

Mr. McVICKAR. Well, as I recall, and as I say, my memory here was completely refreshed by the record, and I see that I have some notes in the file that are undated, but that they were used evidently to write a communication to the Department of State which was dated on August 28, 1961, and so I am confident that this interview must have taken place in say the week before that.

I departed from the Soviet Union about the 1st of September, and things were pretty busy, and I can't remember very much more about it than I can see here in the record.