Chapter VI: Front Matter (6)

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Frazier, is it possible for the fragments identified in Commission Exhibit 840 to have come from the whole bullet heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit 399?

Mr. FRAZIER. I would say that based on weight it would be highly improbable that that much weight could have come from the base of that bullet since its present weight is--its weight when I first received it was 158.6 grains.

Mr. SPECTER. Referring now to 399.

Mr. FRAZIER. Exhibit 399, and its original normal weight would be 160 to 161 grains, and those three metal fragments had a total of 2.1 grains as I recall--2.3 grains. So it is possible but not likely since there is only a very small part of the core of the bullet 399 missing.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the bullet fragments which you found in the President's automobile?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it your job to analyze all of the bullets or bullet fragments which were found in the President's car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it was, except for the spectrographic analysis of the composition.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the bullet fragments which were brought to you by anyone else and identified as having been found in the President's car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; not this morning but at previous times during my testimony I have; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. But then there is on the record now all of the identification of the metallic or bullet fragments found in connection with your examination of the President's car or which were examined by you after having been found by someone else?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. There is one other, it is not a metal particle but it is a residue of metal on the inside of the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Aside from that residue of the windshield which I am going to come to now, have we placed on the record a description of all of the bullets or bullet fragments?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now----

Mr. DULLES. Just one moment. You mean bullet fragments related to the car or bullet fragments found anywhere?

Mr. SPECTER. Related to the President's automobile.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; you have.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion then to examine the windshield of the Presidential limousine?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. What did that examination disclose?

Mr. FRAZIER. On the inside surface of the windshield there was a deposit of lead. This deposit was located when you look at the inside surface of the windshield, 13-1/2 inches down from the top, 23 inches from the left-hand side or driver's side of the windshield, and was immediately in front of a small pattern of star-shaped cracks which appeared in the outer layer of the laminated windshield.

Mr. DULLES. What do you mean by the "outer layer of the laminated windshield"?

Mr. FRAZIER. The windshield is composed of two layers with a very thin layer of plastic in between which bonds them together in the form of safety glass. The inside layer of the glass was not broken, but the outside layer immediately on the outside of the lead residue had a very small pattern of cracks and there was a very minute particle of glass missing from the outside surface.

Mr. DULLES. And the outside surface was the surface away from where the occupants were sitting?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is correct; yes.

Mr. DULLES. And the inside surface was the surface nearest the occupants?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What do those characteristics indicate as to which side of the windshield was struck?

Mr. FRAZIER. It indicates that it could only have been struck on the inside surface. It could not have been struck on the outside surface because of the manner in which the glass broke and further because of the lead residue on the inside surface. The cracks appear in the outer layer of the glass because the glass is bent outward at the time of impact which stretches the outer layer of the glass to the point where these small radial or wagon spoke-wagon wheel spoke-type cracks appear on the outer surface.

Mr. DULLES. So the pressure must have come from the inside and not from the outside against the glass?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. DULLES. As far as the car is concerned from the back to the front?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Not from outside against the glass--from the front against the glass.

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. Was a comparison made of the lead residues on the inside of the windshield with any of the bullet fragments recovered about which you have heretofore testified?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. They were compared with the bullet fragment found on the front seat, which in turn was compared with Commission 399. The lead was found to be similar in composition. However, that examination in detail was made by a spectrographer, Special Agent John F. Gallagher.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that examination made in the regular course of examining procedures by the FBI?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And was that information made available to you through the normal conference procedures among FBI examiners?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. He submitted his report to me and I prepared the formal report of the entire examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Are his report and your formal report a part of the permanent record of the FBI then?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you Commission Exhibit No. 350 which has heretofore been identified as a picture of the windshield of the Presidential limousine and I ask you if that is the crack about which you have just testified?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it is. This Exhibit 350 is a photograph which I took on the 23d of November, showing a view from the front toward the rear of the Presidential limousine and showing the crack in the glass and the lead residue on the inside surface.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you produce at this time the lead residue obtained by you from that inside surface, please? May it please the Commission, I would like to mark this as Commission Exhibit 841 and move for its admission into evidence at this time.

Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted into evidence.

(Commission Exhibit No. 841 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. DULLES. May I just ask a question of you, Mr. Specter, and possibly of the witness.

I assume that the windshield we are now discussing is the windshield that was exhibited to the Commission several weeks ago and which members of the Commission examined?

Mr. SPECTER. It was, Mr. Dulles, and we can establish that, of record, through another Commission Exhibit which is 351, which was the number given to the windshield and we have a reproduction here through the photograph.

Mr. DULLES. You don't have the windshield here today, though?

Mr. SPECTER. No, we do not.

Mr. DULLES. It would be the same windshield that the Commission saw.

Mr. SPECTER. We can establish it through the witness, too.

Mr. Frazier, for that purpose can you identify what is depicted in a photograph heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit 351?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; this is a photograph of the very small pattern of cracks in the windshield which was on the Presidential limousine at the time I examined it, and which I also later examined in the FBI laboratory.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Frazier, have you now described all of your findings on the windshield of the Presidential limousine?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; that is concerning the glass itself and not the molding around the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you then move to the molding around the windshield and state what, if anything, you found there?

Mr. FRAZIER. On the strip of chrome which goes across the top of the windshield and again on the passenger side of the windshield or the inside surface, I found a dent in the chrome which had been caused by some projectile which struck the chrome on the inside surface.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there one dent or more than one dent or what?

Mr. FRAZIER. One dent.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you identify what is depicted by a photograph heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit 349?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; this is a photograph which I took of this dent at that time, showing the damaged chrome, just to the right of the rearview mirror support at the top of the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Did your examination of the President's limousine disclose any other holes or markings which could have conceivably been caused by a bullet striking the automobile or any part of the automobile?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if I could go back just a moment to the indentation in the chrome around the windshield at the top of the windshield, but on the inside, could that have been caused by a fragment of a bullet?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it very easily could have. It would not have been caused, for instance, by a bullet which was traveling at its full velocity from a rifle, but merely from a fragment traveling at fairly high velocity which struck the inside surface of the chrome.

Mr. DULLES. Could that have been caused by any of the fragments that you have identified as having been found on the front seat or near the front seat of the car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I believe it could have by either, in fact, of the two fragments of rifle bullets found in the front seat.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Frazier, assume certain facts to be true for purposes of expressing an opinion on a hypothetical situation, to wit: that President Kennedy was struck by a 6.5 millimeter bullet which passed through his body entering on the rear portion of his neck 14 centimeters to the left of his right acromion process and 14 centimeters below his mastoid process, with a striking velocity of approximately 1,904 feet per second, and exited after passing through a fascia channel in his body, through the lower anterior third of his neck with an exit velocity of approximately 1,772 to 1,779 feet per second; and that bullet had then traveled from the point where it exited from his neck and struck the front windshield in some manner. What effect would that have had on the front windshield and the subsequent flight of the missile?

Mr. FRAZIER. It would have shattered the front windshield. It would have caused a very large, relatively large hole, approximately three-eighths to an inch in diameter with radiating cracks extending outward into the glass for several inches, even to the side of the glass.

Mr. DULLES. It would have penetrated the windshield?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Would the missile then have proceeded in a forward direction?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it would.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an opinion as to how far it would have gone?

Mr. FRAZIER. Until it struck some other object in the area of approximately a mile.

Mr. SPECTER. Now assume the same sequence with respect to exit velocity from the point of the President's neck at the same rate of 1,772 to 1,798 feet per second, and assume still further that the bullet had, the whole bullet had, struck the metal framing which you have heretofore described and identified. What effect would that have had on the metal framing?

Mr. FRAZIER. It would have torn a hole in the chrome, penetrated the framing both inside and outside of the car. I can only assume, since I haven't tested the metal of that particular car, I would assume that the bullet would completely penetrate both the chrome, the metal supporting the chrome, on the inside, and the body metal on the outside which supports the windshield of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, assume the same set of factors as to the exit velocity from the President's neck. What effect would that bullet have had on any other portion of the automobile which it might have struck in the continuation of its flight?

Mr. FRAZIER. In my opinion it would have penetrated any other metal surface and, of course, any upholstery surface depending on the nature of the material as to how deep it would penetrate or how many successive layers it may have penetrated.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any evidence in any portion of the car that the automobile was struck by a bullet which exited from the President's neck under the circumstances which I have just asked you to assume?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. SPECTER. And had there been any such evidence would your examination of the automobile have uncovered such an indication or such evidence?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I feel that it would have.

Mr. SPECTER. Was your examination a thorough examination of all aspects of the interior of the automobile?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; for our purpose. However, we did not tear out all of the rugs on the floor, for instance. We examined the rugs carefully for holes, for bullet furroughs, for fragments. We examined the nap of the rug, in the actual nap of the rug, for fragments and bullet holes. We pulled the rug back as far as we could turn it back and even tore the glue or adhesive material loose around the cracks at the edges of the rug so we could observe the cracks to see whether they had been enlarged, and we examined all of the upholstery covering, on the back of the front seat, on the doors, and in the rear seat compartment, the jump seats, the actual rear seat, the back of the rear seat, and we examined the front seat in a similar manner, and we found no bullet holes or other bullet impact areas, other than the one on the inside of the windshield and the dent inside the windshield chrome.

Mr. SPECTER. Had any of those portions of the automobile been struck by the bullet exiting from the President's neck, which I have described hypothetically for you, would you have found some evidence of striking?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. When was this examination made?

Mr. FRAZIER. Between 2 and 4:30 a.m. on November 23, 1963.

Mr. DULLES. That was about 10 hours, 12 hours after the assassination?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; 14 to 16 hours.

Mr. DULLES. Fourteen to sixteen hours.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask, do you know in whose custody the automobile was prior to your examination from the time it was shipped on the airplane?

Mr. FRAZIER. When I arrived there were two Secret Service men present but I do not recall their names. They were introduced to me, and they were there during the entire examination but I don't recall their actual names. The car was under guard in the Secret Service garage in Washington, D.C.

Other than that I do not know.

Mr. DULLES. Was this a joint examination by you and by the Secret Service or was the examination made by the FBI?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; by the FBI at the request of the Secret Service who had already examined the interior of the car for personal effects and other items.

Mr. DULLES. Did they certify to you or advise you that the car had been under their custody during this 14-to 16-hour period?

Mr. FRAZIER. I don't recall whether they actually stated that. What they stated was that the car had immediately been flown to Washington and placed in this garage and kept under surveillance the entire time.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. SPECTER. Was a fragment of metal brought to you which was identified as coming from the wrist of Governor Connally?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was identified to me as having come from the arm of Governor Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you produce that fragment at this time, please?

Mr. FRAZIER. This one does not have a Commission number as yet.

Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission, I would like to have this fragment marked as Commission Exhibit 842.

(Commission Exhibit No. 842 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, referring to a fragment heretofore marked as Q9 for FBI record purposes, and now marked as Commission Exhibit No. 842, will you describe that fragment for us, please?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; this is a small fragment of metal which weighed one-half a grain when I first examined it in the laboratory. It is a piece of lead, and could have been a part of a bullet or a core of a bullet.

However, it lacks any physical characteristics which would permit stating whether or not it actually originated from a bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. Are its physical characteristics consistent with having come from Commission Exhibit 399?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it could have.

Mr. SPECTER. Are they consistent with that fragment identified as Commission Exhibit No. 842, as having come from fragment identified as Commission Exhibit 567?

Mr. FRAZIER. Which is 567?

Mr. SPECTER. 567 is the one which was found on the front seat.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it could have.

Mr. SPECTER. Were the characteristics of the fragment identified as Commission Exhibit 842 consistent with having come from the fragment heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit 569?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you set forth from the records of the FBI, if you have those before you, the chain of possession of the fragment identified as Commission Exhibit 842, please?

Mr. FRAZIER. Commission Exhibit 842, that is the one from Governor Connally's arm, was delivered to me in the FBI laboratory on November 23, 1963, by Special Agent Vincent E. Drain of the Dallas Office of the FBI, who stated he had secured this item from Capt. Will Fritz of the Dallas Police Department.

I do not know where Captain Fritz obtained it.

Mr. SPECTER. Referring back for just a moment to the coat identified as that worn by Governor Connally, Mr. Frazier, was there any observable angle of elevation or declination from the back side of the Governor's coat to the front side of the Governor's coat?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; there was, approximately a 35-degree downward angle.

Mr. SPECTER. Measuring from----

Mr. FRAZIER. That is----

Mr. SPECTER. Back to front or front to back?

Mr. FRAZIER. From back towards the front.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the same question as to the Governor's shirt?

Mr. FRAZIER. I would say it was approximately the same angle or slightly less. I think we measured approximately 30 degrees.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that from the front to back or from the back to front of the Governor's shirt?

Mr. FRAZIER. That would be from the back towards the front. Downward from back towards the front.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Dulles, those questions complete the ones which we have to ask, sir.

Mr. Frazier, one additional question: Do you have any knowledge through any source whatsoever of any bullets or bullet fragments found anywhere in the vicinity of the assassination other than those which you have already testified to, which were in the car, or the whole bullet from the Connally stretcher or the fragments from Governor Connally's wrist?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I have never heard of any nor have any been submitted to me.

Mr. SPECTER. During the regular processing of the FBI examination in this case, would all such bullets or bullet fragments be brought to you for examination in accordance with your assignment to this matter generally?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they would.

Mr. SPECTER. Were any metallic fragments brought to you which were purported to have been found in the head of President Kennedy?

Mr. DULLES. Or body?

Mr. SPECTER. Or body of President Kennedy?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they were.

On November 23, 1963, at 1:35 a.m., the two metal fragments in this container were delivered to me in the FBI laboratory by Special Agent James W. Sibert, and Special Agent Francis O'Neill of the Baltimore office of the FBI who stated they had obtained these in the autopsy room at the Naval Hospital near Washington, D.C., where they were present when they were removed from the head of President Kennedy.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any specification as to the portion of the President's head from which they were removed?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they told me that there had been numerous particles in the head but only these two had been removed, the others being very small.

Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission I would like to have those marked and admitted into evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 843.

Mr. DULLES. It shall be so marked and admitted under those numbers.

(Commission Exhibit No. 843 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. In the event we have not already had 842 admitted into evidence, I move, Mr. Dulles, for the admission into evidence of 842 which was the fragment from Governor Connally's arm.

Mr. DULLES. That shall be admitted.

Mr. SPECTER. Moving back to 843 will you describe those fragments indicating their weight and general composition?

Mr. FRAZIER. These fragments consisted of two pieces of lead, one weighed 1.65 grains. The other weighed .15 grain. They were examined spectrographically so their present weight would be somewhat less since a very small amount would be needed for spectrographic analysis.

Mr. SPECTER. Was a comparison made between or among these two fragments with the other metal from the bullets heretofore identified as Commission Exhibits 399, 567, 569, 840, and 842?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they were.

Mr. SPECTER. What did that examination disclose?

Mr. FRAZIER. Possibly my numbers do not agree with those you have. These two particles from the President's head were compared with the lead of Exhibit 842.

Mr. SPECTER. Which is the fragment from the arm of Governor Connally?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they were compared with the lead scraping from the inside of the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Which is Exhibit 841.

Mr. FRAZIER. And with the three lead fragments found on the rear floorboard carpet of the limousine.

Mr. SPECTER. Which is Exhibit 840.

Mr. FRAZIER. And they were found to be similar in metallic composition.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you state with any more certainty----

Mr. FRAZIER. Excuse me, one thing. These, as a group, were compared with the bullet fragment, Commission Exhibit 567, which was found on the front seat of the automobile, which also was found to be similar in metallic composition.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it possible to state with any more certainty whether or not any of those fragments came from the same bullet?

Mr. FRAZIER. Not definitely, no; only that they are of similar lead composition.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described fully all of the relevant characteristics of the fragments identified as Commission Exhibit 843?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other bullets or bullet fragment or metallic substances of any sort connected with this case in any way which you have examined which you have not already testified to here today or on your prior appearance?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; that is all of them.

Mr. DULLES. Is there anything further?

Mr. SPECTER. No.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much, Mr. Frazier.

The Commission will reconvene at 2:30.

(Whereupon, at 1:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF DR. ALFRED G. OLIVIER

The President's Commission reconvened at 3 p.m.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order.

Mr. Specter, has the doctor been sworn yet?

Mr. SPECTER. No, sir; he has not.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in the matter before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated.

Mr. SPECTER. State your full name for the record.

Dr. OLIVIER. Dr. Alfred G. Olivier.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession?

Dr. OLIVIER. A supervisory research veterinarian and I work for the Department of the Army at Edgewood Arsenal, Md.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe the nature of your duties at that arsenal, please?

Dr. OLIVIER. Investigating the wound ballistics of various bullets and other military missiles.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe the general nature of the tests which are carried on at Edgewood Arsenal?

Dr. OLIVIER. For example, with a bullet we run tissue studies getting the retardation of the bullet through the tissues, the penetration, various characteristics of it. We use as good tissue simulant 20 percent gelatin. This has a drag coefficient of muscle tissue and makes an excellent homogenous medium to study the action of the bullet. We also use animal parts and parts of cadavers where necessary to determine the characteristics of these things.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you set forth your educational background briefly, please?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I did 2 years of preveterinary work at the University of New Hampshire and 4 years of veterinary school at the University of Pennsylvania, and I hold a degree doctor of veterinary medicine at the University of Pennsylvania.

Mr. SPECTER. In what year did you complete your educational work?

Dr. OLIVIER. 1953.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline your experience in the field subsequent to 1953?

Dr. OLIVIER. In this field?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Dr. OLIVIER. I came to Edgewood Arsenal, then the Army Chemical Center, in 1957, and originally to work, take charge of the animal colonies but immediately I got interested in the research and started working in the field of wound ballistics and have been in it ever since, and am presently Chief of the Wound Ballistics Branch.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been in charge of a series of tests performed to determine certain wound ballistics on circumstances analogous to the underlying facts on wounds inflicted upon President Kennedy and Governor Connally on November 22, 1963?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And in the course of those tests what weapon was used?

Dr. OLIVIER. It was identified as Commission Exhibit 139. It was a 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano rifle.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the designation, Commission Exhibit No. 139, appear on the body of that rifle?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; it did.

Mr. SPECTER. What type of bullets were used in the tests which you performed?

Dr. OLIVIER. We used the Western ammunition, Western being a division of Olin Industries, Winchester Western, it was lot 6,000 to 6.5 mm. round. Has a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,160 feet per second.

Mr. SPECTER. And were those bullets obtained by you upon information provided to you by the Commission's staff as to the identity of the bullets which were believed to have been used during the assassination?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I first got the identity from the people at Aberdeen Proving Grounds and then I further checked with the Commission to see if that was right before ordering this type of ammunition.

Mr. SPECTER. And where were those bullets obtained from?

Dr. OLIVIER. I obtained 100 rounds from Remington at Bridgeport. Conn., and Dr. Dziemian obtained another 160 rounds, I believe, from Winchester in New Haven.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you perform certain tests to determine the wound ballistics and include in that the penetration power of the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, which you referred to, firing the Western Cartridge Co. bullet by comparison with other types of bullets?

Dr. OLIVIER. We didn't fire any of the others at the same time. These had been fired previously. We have all these records for comparison.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle then fired for comparison purposes with the other bullets where you already had your experience?

Dr. OLIVIER. No; it was fired for the purposes for which--to try to shed some light on say the factors leading to the assassination and all, not for comparison with the other bullets.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photograph which is marked as Commission Exhibit No. 844, may it please the Commission, and ask you if this photograph was prepared by you in conjunction with the study on the Mannlicher-Carcano and the Western Cartridge Co. bullet?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; it was.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you explain to the Commission what that photograph depicts?

Dr. OLIVIER. Actually, the bullet passed through two gelatin blocks. This was done as part of an energy study to see the amount of energy imparted to the block of gelatin taking a high-speed motion picture. These blocks show a record of the permanent cavity left in the gelatin. This is not necessarily the total penetration. This bullet when it comes out of the second block still has quite a bit of penetrating power. Quite a few of these bullets would go into a dirt bank and imbed themselves so deeply that they couldn't be recovered.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you Commission Exhibit No. 845 which is a photograph, and ask you to state for the record what that photograph represents?

Dr. OLIVIER. This has been adopted as standard military ammunition of the U.S. Army. It is known as the NATO round. It is M-80 ball fired in the M-14 rifle. It has a different--it is a full jacketed military bullet but has a different point, what they call a no jag point, a sharp point. It has tumbling characteristics. When it goes in a certain block it tumbles and does the same in the body. It is more efficient in producing wounds than the bullet under study.

Mr. SPECTER. How do the impact, penetration, and other characteristics of the bullet depicted in 845 compare with the Western Cartridge Co. bullet fired from the Mannlicher-Carcano in 844?

Dr. OLIVIER. It has better wounding potential due to the quicker tumbling but it would not have as good penetrating ability, when it starts tumbling and releasing all that energy doing all that damage it comes to a stop in a shorter distance.

Mr. SPECTER. Would the Western bullet be characterized as having the qualities of a more stable bullet?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; it would. You mean in the target?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. The stability in the air would be the same for any missile, would it not?

Dr. OLIVIER. To be a good bullet they should be stable in air in order to hit what you are aiming at, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Then would the characteristics of stability in the air be the same for either of the two bullets you have heretofore referred to?

Dr. OLIVIER. Essentially so.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you photograph marked as Commission Exhibit No. 846 and ask you to state what that depicts?

Dr. OLIVIER. This is a 257 Winchester Roberts soft nose hunting bullet. This one pictured fired from right to left instead of left to right and the bullet didn't even go out of the block. It deforms almost immediately on entering the block and releases its energy rather rapidly. This type of ammunition is illegal for military use. We are just studying the wounding characteristics of various bullets, but this is not a military bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. How does it compare with the Western bullet?

Dr. OLIVIER. It would be better for wounding, better for hunting purposes. But as I said, it isn't acceptable as a military bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. How does it compare with respect to penetration power?

Dr. OLIVIER. Much less than the Mannlicher-Carcano.

Mr. SPECTER. In the normal course of the work that you perform for the U.S. Army at Edgewood Arsenal, do you have occasion to simulate substances for testing purposes on determining the path of a bullet through the human body?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; we do use animal tissues or gelatin as simulants for tissues of the human body.

Mr. SPECTER. Has the autopsy report on President John F. Kennedy been made available to you for your review?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; it has.

Mr. SPECTER. And subsequent to your review of that report, did you make an effort to simulate the body tissue through which the bullet is reported to have passed through the President in accordance with the report of the autopsy surgeon; entering on the rear of his neck, 14 cm. below the mastoid process and 14 cm. to the left of the right acromion process, passing through a fascia channel, striking the trachea and exiting through the lower anterior of the neck?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. What substance did you prepare to simulate that portion of the President's body?

Dr. OLIVIER. We determined the distance on various people by locating this anatomical region and using people of various sizes we found that regardless of general body build, the distance penetrated was around 13-1/2 to 14-1/2 cm.

As a consequence, I used gelatin blocks 20 percent gelatin cut at 13-1/2 cm. lengths and also used horsemeat and goatmeat placed in a box so that--this was a little harder to get the exact length but that varied between 13-1/2 and 14-1/2 cm. of muscle tissue.

Mr. SPECTER. Did that simulate, then, the portion of the President's body through which the bullet is reported to have passed, as closely as you could for your testing purposes?

Dr. OLIVIER. As closely as we could for these test purposes; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked as Commission Exhibit No. 847 and ask you to testify as to what that depicts?

Dr. OLIVIER. This is a box containing--I couldn't say looking at it whether it is the horsemeat or the goatmeat but one of the two. The distance traveled through that meat would be 13-1/2 to 14-1/2 centimeters. It is also covered with clothing and clipped goatskin on the entrance and exit sides, and behind that are the screens for measuring the exit velocity. We had already determined the striking velocity by firing I believe it was--I have it right here if you want----

Mr. SPECTER. Before you proceed to that, describe the type of screens which are shown in the picture which were used to measure exit velocity, if you please?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes. These screens are known as the break-type screen. They are silver imprinted on paper and when the bullet passes through it breaks the current. When it passes through the first screen it breaks the current activating a chronograph, counting chronograph. When it passes through the second screen it stops. This is over a known distance, and so the time that it took to pass between the first and the second will give you the average velocity halfway between the two screens.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 848 and ask you to describe what that shows?

Dr. OLIVIER. This was a similar setup used for firing through gelatin. It had clothing and skin over the entrance side only. If it had been placed on the other side it would have just flown off.

Mr. SPECTER. And that is similar to that depicted in 846?

Dr. OLIVIER. Essentially; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Except that it is----

Dr. OLIVIER. Gelatin instead of the tissues.

Mr. SPECTER. Now at what range was the firing performed on the gelatin, goatmeat and horsemeat?

Dr. OLIVIER. This firing was done at a 60-yard range.

Mr. SPECTER. And what gun was used?

Dr. OLIVIER. The 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano that was marked Commission Exhibit 139.

Mr. SPECTER. And what bullets were used?

Dr. OLIVIER. The Western ammunition lot 6,000, 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano.

Mr. SPECTER. And was there any substance placed over the gelatin, horsemeat and goatmeat?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; over the gelatin we had clothing; had a suit, shirt and undershirt, and underneath that a clipped goatskin. The same thing was over the meat, and on the other side of the meat was also clipped goatskin.

Mr. SPECTER. Would there be any significant difference to the test by leaving out the undershirt if the President had not worn an undershirt?

Dr. OLIVIER. No.

Mr. SPECTER. So that the circumstance was simulated with the actual type clothing and a protective skin over the substance just as realistically as you could make it?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What measurement was obtained as to the entrance velocity of the bullet at the distance of 60 yards which you described?

Dr. OLIVIER. The striking velocity at an average of three shots was 1,904 feet per second.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the average exit velocity on each of the substances used?

Dr. OLIVIER. For the gelatin the average exit velocity was 1,779 feet per second. The horsemeat, the average exit velocity was 1,798 feet per second. And the goatmeat the average exit velocity was 1,772 feet per second.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 849 and ask you what that picture represents?

Dr. OLIVIER. This is one of the gelatin blocks used in that test. It shows the type of track left by the bullet passing through it. That bullet is very stable. Passing through the body and muscle, it would make a similar type wound. Of course, you couldn't observe it that nicely.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe that as being a straight line?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a picture marked Commission Exhibit No. 850 and ask you what that represents?

Dr. OLIVIER. These are pieces of clipped goatskin, clipped very shortly. There is still some hair on it. These were placed, these particular ones were placed over the tissues. This would be placed over the entrance side of the animal.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "this," you are referring to a piece of goatskin which is marked "enter"?

Dr. OLIVIER. Marked "enter." The one marked "exit" was placed on the far side of the tissues and the bullet passed through that after it came out of the tissues.

Mr. SPECTER. For the record, will you describe the characteristics, which are shown on the goatskin at the point of entry, please?

Dr. OLIVIER. At the point of entry the wound holes through the skin are for all purposes round. On the exit side they are more elongated, two of them in particular are a little more elongated. The bullet had started to become slightly unstable coming out.

Mr. SPECTER. And how about the third or lower bullet on the skin designated exit?

Dr. OLIVIER. That hole appears as more stable than the other two. In all three cases the bullet is still pretty stable. The gelatin blocks, there were gelatin blocks placed behind these things too, and for all practical purposes, the tracks through them still indicated a stable bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other conclusions which you would care to add to those which you have already indicated, resulting from the tests you have heretofore described?

Dr. OLIVIER. Well, it means that the bullet that passed through the President's neck had lost very little of its wounding potential and was capable of doing a great deal of damage in penetrating. I might mention one thing showing how great its penetrating ability was. That say on one of the gelatin shots, it went through a total, counting the gelatin block, it went through plus the backing up blocks of gelatin, it went through a total of 72-1/2 centimeters of gelatin, was still traveling and buried itself in a mound of earth so it has terrific penetrating ability. This means that had the bullet that passed through the President's neck hit in the car or anywhere you would have seen evidence, a good deal of evidence.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Olivier, in the regular course of your work for the U.S. Army, do you have occasion to perform tests on animal materials where the characteristics of those animals materials are sufficiently similar to human bodies to make a determination of the effect of the bullet wounds in human bodies?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I do.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you have occasion to make a test on goat material in connection with the experiments which you ran?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you familiar with the wounds inflicted on Governor Connally on November 22, 1963?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; from reading the surgeon's report and also from talking to Dr. Gregory and Dr. Shaw.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have access to the medical reports of Parkland Hospital concerning the wounds of Governor Connally in all respects?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you have occasion to discuss those wounds in great detail with Dr. Shaw and Dr. Gregory when they were present in Washington, D.C. on April 21, 1964, preparatory to their testifying before this Commission?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the nature of the wound on Governor Connally's back?

Dr. OLIVIER. The surgeon's report described it as about 3 centimeters long, its longest dimension, and it is hard for me to remember reading it or discussing it with him but I did both. Apparently it was a jagged wound. He said a wound like this consists of two things, usually a defect in the epidermis and a central hole which is small, and he could put his finger in it so it was a fairly large wound.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the path of the bullet in a general way, based on the information provided to you concerning Governor Connally's wound in the back?

Dr. OLIVIER. Apparently it passed along the rib. I don't recall which rib it was but passed the fifth rib, passed along this rib causing a fracture that I believe removed about 10 centimeters of the rib through fragments through the pleura, lacerating the lung. I asked Dr. Shaw directly whether he thought the bullet had gone through the pleural cavity and he said he didn't believe that it had, that the damage was done by the rib fragments. Then the bullet exited as described somewhat below the right nipple.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you perform a test on goat substance to endeavor to measure the reduction in velocity of a missile similar to the one which passed through Governor Connally?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Why was goat substance selected for that purpose in the testing procedure?

Dr. OLIVIER. We usually use this in our work so we are familiar with it. I am not saying it is the only substance that could be used, but we were not using any unknown procedures or any procedures that we hadn't used already.

Mr. SPECTER. Does it closely simulate the nature of a wound in the human body?

Dr. OLIVIER. In this particular instance it did.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the wound inflicted on the goat, then, subjected to X-ray analysis for the purpose of determining the precise nature of the wound and for comparison purposes with that wound----

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; it was.

Mr. SPECTER. Inflicted on Connally?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; it was.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you an X-ray marked Commission Exhibit 851 and ask you to state what that shows?

Dr. OLIVIER. It shows a fractured rib. From this you wouldn't be able to--well, if you were a better radiologist than I was, you might be able to tell which one, but it was the eighth left rib. It shows a comminuted fracture extending some distance along the rib.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 852, which is a photograph, and ask you to testify as to what that depicts, please?

Dr. OLIVIER. This is a photograph taken from the same X-ray again showing the comminuted fracture of the eighth left rib.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that a photograph then of the X-ray designated Commission Exhibit 851?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to observe personally the X-rays showing the wound on Governor Connally's rib?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. And how do those X-rays compare with the wound inflicted as depicted in Exhibits 851 and 852?

Dr. OLIVIER. They are very similar.

Mr. SPECTER. When the wounds were inflicted, as depicted in 851 and 852, what weapon was used?

Dr. OLIVIER. This was again the 6.5 millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano rifle.

Mr. SPECTER. And what bullets were used?

Dr. OLIVIER. The 6.5 millimeter Western ammunition lot 6,000.

Mr. SPECTER. And what distance was utilized?

Dr. OLIVIER. On the goat the distance was 70 yards.

Mr. SPECTER. And was there any covering over the goat?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes. There was a suit, shirt, and undershirt.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the entrance velocity of the bullet?

Dr. OLIVIER. Striking velocity for an average of 11 shots was 1,929 feet per second.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the exit velocity?

Dr. OLIVIER. The exit velocity was 1,664 feet per second.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a box containing a bullet, which has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 853, and ask you if you have ever seen that bullet before?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And under what circumstances have you previously seen that bullet?

Dr. OLIVIER. This was the bullet that was fired through the goat. It went through the velocity screens into some cotton waste, dropped out of the bottom of that and was lying on the floor. It was picked up immediately afterwards still warm, so we knew it was the bullet that had fired that particular shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that fired through the goat depicted in the photographs and X-ray, 851 and 852?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; that was the goat.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe for the record, verbally please, the characteristics of that bullet?

Dr. OLIVIER. The bullet has been quite flattened. The lead core is extruding somewhat from the rear. We weighed the bullet. It weighs 158.8 grains.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you Commission Exhibit 399, which has been heretofore in Commission proceedings identified as the bullet found on the stretcher of Governor Connally, and ask if you have had an opportunity to compare 399 with 853?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you find on that comparison?

Dr. OLIVIER. The bullet recovered on the stretcher has not been flattened as much, but there is a suggestion of flattening there from a somewhat similar occurrence. Also, the lead core has extruded from the rear in the same fashion, and it appears that some of it has even broken from the rear.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there some flattening on both of those bullets in approximately the same areas toward the rear of the missiles?

Dr. OLIVIER. In the bullet, our particular bullet is flattened the whole length, but you say towards the rear?

Mr. SPECTER. You say our bullet; you mean 853?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, 853 is flattened. No. 399 is flattened more towards the rear.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other conclusions which you have to add to the tests performed on the goat?

Dr. OLIVIER. Well, again in this test it demonstrates that the bullet that was stable when it struck in this fashion again lost very little velocity in going through that much goat tissue.

Incidentally, the amount of goat tissue it traversed was probably somewhat less than the Governor, but in any case it indicates the bullet would have had a lot of remaining velocity and could have done a lot of damage.

Another thing that hasn't been brought up is the velocity screen immediately behind the goat, the imprint of the bullet left on it was almost the length of the bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. What does that indicate?

Dr. OLIVIER. This indicates that the bullet was now no longer traveling straight but either traveling sideways or tumbling end over end at the time it hit the screen.

Mr. SPECTER. And that was after the point of exit from the goat?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other conclusions which you found from the studies on the goat?

Dr. OLIVIER. No, I believe that is all I can think of right at this moment.

Mr. SPECTER. In the regular course of your work for the U.S. Army, do you have occasion to perform tests on parts of human cadavers to determine the effects of bullets on human beings?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I do.

Mr. SPECTER. And was a series of tests performed under your supervision on the portions of human cadavers simulated to the wound inflicted on the wrist of Governor Connally?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you familiar with the nature of the wound on Governor Connally's wrist prior to performing those tests?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I was.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the source of your information on those wounds?

Dr. OLIVIER. I had read the surgeon's report, also talked with Dr. Gregory, the surgeon who had done the surgery, and had looked at the X-rays.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you had an opportunity to discuss the wounds with Dr. Gregory and view the X-rays taken at Parkland Hospital, here in the Commission headquarters?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. On April 21, 1964?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you an X-ray marked as Commission Exhibit 854, and ask you what that depicts?

Dr. OLIVIER. This is a comminuted fracture of the distal end of the radius of a human arm.

Mr. SPECTER. And in what manner was that wound caused?

Dr. OLIVIER. It was caused by a bullet from the Commission Exhibit 139. This was again the 6.5-millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano Western ammunition lot 6,000.

Mr. SPECTER. Fired at what distance?

Dr. OLIVIER. Fired at a distance of 70 yards.

Mr. SPECTER. And was there anything protecting the wrist at the time of impact?

Dr. OLIVIER. Not protection but there was again clothing, this time suit material or suit lining, at least suit material and shirt. I am not sure about the lining. I can tell you. I have it right here. Suit material, suit lining material, and shirt material.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked as Commission Exhibit 855 and ask you what that represents?

Dr. OLIVIER. This is a photograph taken from the X-ray, Commission Exhibit 854.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe for the record the details of the injuries shown on 854 and 855, please?

Dr. OLIVIER. This is a comminuted fracture of the distal end of the radius. It was struck directly by the bullet. It passed through, not directly through but through at an oblique angle so that it entered more proximal on the dorsal side of the wrist and distal on the volar aspect.

Mr. SPECTER. How does the entry and exit compare with the wound on Governor Connally which you observed on the X-rays?

Dr. OLIVIER. In this particular instance to the best of my memory from looking at the X-rays, it is very close. It is about one of the best ones that we obtained.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any definable difference at all?

Dr. OLIVIER. I couldn't determine any.

Mr. SPECTER. It is close, you say?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes. If I had both X-rays in front of me if there was a difference I could determine it, but from memory I would say it was for all purposes identical.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a bullet in a case marked Commission Exhibit 856 and ask if you have ever seen that before?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes. This is the bullet that caused the damage shown in Commission Exhibits Nos. 854 and 855.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe that bullet for the record, please?

Dr. OLIVIER. The nose of the bullet is quite flattened from striking the radius.

Mr. SPECTER. How does it compare, for example, with Commission Exhibit 399?

Dr. OLIVIER. It is not like it at all. I mean, Commission Exhibit 399 is not flattened on the end. This one is very severely flattened on the end.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the velocity of the missile at the time it struck the wrist depicted in 854 and 855?

Dr. OLIVIER. The average striking velocity was 1,858 feet per second.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have the precise striking velocity of that one?

Dr. OLIVIER. No; I don't. We could not put velocity screen in front of the individual shots because it would have interfered with the gunner's view. So we took five shots and got an average striking velocity.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say five shots with an average striking velocity, those were at the delineated distance without striking anything on those particular shots?

Dr. OLIVIER. Right, and after establishing that velocity, then we went on to shoot the various arms.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the exit velocity?

Dr. OLIVIER. On this particular one?

Mr. SPECTER. If you have it?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes. Well, I don't know if I have that or not. We didn't get them in all because some of these things deflect. No, I have no exit velocity on this particular one.

Mr. SPECTER. What exit velocity did you get on the average?

Dr. OLIVIER. Average exit velocity was 1,776 feet per second. This was for an average of seven. We did 10. We obtained velocity on seven.

Mr. SPECTER. Would the average reduction be approximately the same, in your professional opinion, as to the bullet exiting from the wrist depicted in 854 and 855?

Dr. OLIVIER. Somewhat. Let me give you the extremes of our velocities. The highest one was 1,866 and the lowest was 1,664, so there was a 202-feet-per-second difference in the thing. Some of the cases bone was missed, in other cases glancing blows. But I would say it is a close approximation to what the exit velocity was on that particular one.

Mr. SPECTER. And what would the close approximation be, the average?

Dr. OLIVIER. The average.