Chapter XXXIII: Section 51: 135, entitled "Denial of passports to members of Communist (3)

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. McKenzie, do you have anything else?

Mr. McKENZIE. I would like to ask a couple of questions. Mr. Coulter, prior to your service with the State Department which commenced some 3 months ago, where were you employed?

Mr. COULTER. I was unemployed from June 1963 until March 1964. I was in the process of being cleared for a Government job at the time.

I terminated my employment with the United Nations in June 1963.

Mr. McKENZIE. And you have been cleared for Government security purposes?

Mr. COULTER. That is right. The clearance began about August. I had some part-time jobs, freelance work, between the dates, but nothing permanent.

Mr. McKENZIE. But for a number of years you were an interpreter at the United Nations?

Mr. COULTER. About 3 years.

Mr. McKENZIE. And then you started getting a security clearance, and for the past 3 months you have been employed by the State Department as an interpreter?

Mr. COULTER. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. You were the interpreter present this morning when Mrs. Oswald commenced her testimony on this occasion?

Mr. COULTER. I was.

Mr. McKENZIE. And all the above and foregoing testimony previously testified to from the beginning of this session this morning up through now, you have interpreted; have you not?

Mr. COULTER. I have.

Mrs. OSWALD. I appreciate Mr. Coulter helping me.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Rankin, the purpose and reason behind my asking you to show his qualifications, the interpreter's qualifications, is that the record will reflect that Mrs. Oswald was asked questions in English, and they were interpreted into Russian, and she has answered in Russian--and so that the record will show she was not answering in English.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I would like to turn now to the pictures of your husband that I asked you about earlier, when you identified the gray camera as the one that was used in taking the pictures. And I called your attention to Commission Exhibits Nos. 133-A and 133-B. I now wish to ask you specifically whether you used that camera that you saw identified for the taking of both of these pictures. And in so doing, I wish to call your attention to the fact that there were two different positions in the exhibits.

Mrs. OSWALD. I took both these pictures at the same time, and with the same camera.

Mr. RANKIN. And in giving that answer, you have examined the pictures, and you know they are different positions--that is, your husband has the rifle in different positions and the newspaper in different positions in the two pictures--do you?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am aware of that.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, did you ever have a discussion with your husband about when he decided that he would like to become a citizen of the Soviet Union?

Mrs. OSWALD. We discussed this and he said that the Soviet Government wanted him to become a Soviet citizen and furnished him the necessary papers, but he apparently refused. But the way it appears in his diary, of course, is quite different--in fact, the exact opposite.

Mr. RANKIN. By the exact opposite, you mean that it shows in his diary that he was the one that wanted to be a Soviet citizen, and the Soviet Union refused to allow that; is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.

Representative FORD. When did this conversation on this subject take place, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. About 3 months after we were married.

Representative FORD. While you were living in Minsk?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative FORD. Do you remember how the discussion came up?

Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee wrote the American Embassy requesting return to the United States and requesting an American passport, he told me that it was very lucky that he hadn't become a Soviet citizen, and that his passport was still in the American Embassy. And that if he had become a Soviet citizen, it would have been difficult if not impossible to leave.

Before I found out about his diary, I didn't realize that the Soviet Government had refused to grant him citizenship, because he never talked about this, never mentioned it.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, that is the end of the questioning that I planned to examine Mrs. Oswald about. I understand that Congressman Ford has some.

I would like before closing to make an offer of what has been marked now as Commission Exhibit No. 993, which is the story that Mrs. Oswald developed in Russian that was furnished to us, and I want to inform the Commission that it was furnished to us for the purpose of trying to examine Mrs. Oswald the first time, and that counsel at that time and present counsel wanted to make it very clear that they didn't want to lose any property interest in that document. And all rights that they might have to publish it and use it commercially and any other way that she might have, and that it was merely furnished to the Commission for official purposes and very strictly limited in that manner. But I would like to offer it and the Commission may want to reserve its decision as to whether it should be made a part of the record and published. But I think it should at this time be offered for your consideration in that manner.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Does counsel wish to add anything to that?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, Mr. Chairman; I would, if I may, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. I appreciate Mr. Rankin's remarks in connection with the offering of Mrs. Oswald's memoirs, or manuscript of her memoirs, which, I understand, is Commission Exhibit No. 993. The manuscript prepared by Mrs. Oswald was heretofore voluntarily presented for the sole and exclusive purpose of assisting the Commission in its official duties for the Commission's use and benefit and to help the Commission in evaluating Mrs. Oswald's testimony as well as the testimony of others in arriving at a report setting forth its findings and conclusions to the President and the American people.

Mrs. Oswald and her two minor children have property rights that are private to her and to them in the publishing and use of the memoirs set forth in her manuscript, which was written solely for her use in writing a book for commercial purposes. She does object to the inclusion of the manuscript in the record, or the publishing of same, and she does not waive or relinquish or in anyway legally or otherwise give away her proprietary rights in this regard, to the manuscript.

She respectfully requests that the Commission honor her request in what has heretofore been deemed and what she now deems to be her assistance to the Commission--and I will say this--that she has told me repeatedly that she has sought to assist the Commission in every possible and conceivable way. But in light of that, she does respect the Commission's indulgence in not publishing this manuscript, and asks that this only be used as it was presented for the purpose of assisting the Commission in its official duties, in evaluating the evidence.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any suggestions as to how we might use it and at the same time not permanently deprive the public of an opportunity to see it?

Before you answer that, I want to say this. I am sure no member of the Commission wants to--has any desire to in anyway interfere with the property rights of Mrs. Oswald. She did cooperate with us in bringing this. We feel grateful that she did do it. On the other hand, we do want eventually to have this in the record so the public will know that they are getting everything that the Commission has. I am just wondering if perhaps while you are contemplating writing something on the subject, and protecting her property rights, if we could seal this with a notation that it was not to be opened for public view until that has been done. And you could let us know when that day has passed. Would that protect her rights?

Mr. McKENZIE. Well, Mr. Chief Justice, I would be the last one in the world to suggest anything either to yourself or to the Commission insofar as the way this matter should be handled. I do have, or feel, that the manuscript was given to the Commission, the Commission has had more than adequate opportunity to interrogate Mrs. Oswald. She is willing to stay here now as long as the Commission desires, and will do so voluntarily without the issuance of a subpena or any other way.

I think through the interrogation that Mr. Rankin has conducted--I might remark, most ably--that certainly the matters covered in the manuscript have already been covered in direct sworn testimony. And with that thought in mind, it was my feeling, and it is my feeling that the Commission and its staff, through the help and assistance of the manuscript and Mrs. Oswald, have had the benefit of all the matters previously written down by Mrs. Oswald, and that if there are any questions that have not been covered that are covered in the manuscript, I am sure that counsel for the Commission could adequately cover those questions. The manuscript was prepared by Mrs. Oswald in the form of memoirs. And was not prepared for the use of the Commission. And I think without the Commission's knowledge--it was prepared beforehand. And she brought it so the Commission could have the effect of it and the use of it. Now, if the Commission feels that it should be finally published as part of the Commission's report, I would certainly hope that the Commission would honor her request and withhold the publishing of the manuscript until such time as she has had the opportunity to conclude any negotiations which she might have or might possibly have for the publishing of a book.

I ask this not so much for Mrs. Oswald herself, but more for her two minor children.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, we will do at least that. We will take the matter under consideration and having in mind her rights and our desire not to interfere with them we will try to work out a solution that will be satisfactory to you and to her.

Mr. McKENZIE. I thank you very much, Mr. Chief Justice. And I might also add that the Chief Justice and all members of this Commission and its staff know full well, or at least I feel would know full well that just as soon as this report is published and distributed to the public, or distributed to the press, regardless of what property rights she may have now or may have then, it will be extremely difficult for Mrs. Oswald to protect those rights--if not impossible.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to say, also, for the record that there is nothing sensational or nothing of a secretive nature in the document. It is something that, as you say, was written for publication, and we assume that it will be some day published, probably, and that if it is not given to the public, it will not be because there is anything of a secret nature in there. It would only be a question of whether it could be done consistent with the rights of the witness. And we will bear those in mind, you may be sure.

Mr. McKENZIE. I thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

And if I may add one other thing. I have heretofore made a request on Mr. Rankin in connection with a diary which was presented by Robert Oswald at the time of his testimony to the Commission, that Robert Oswald had prepared shortly after November 22, and which not only has he furnished the diary to the Commission, but has also narrated that diary by reading same on dictaphone tapes, and I have, in turn, furnished it to Mr. Jenner, a member of the Commission's staff.

I have requested the Commission not to print Robert Oswald's diary for the same reasons that I have heretofore outlined in connection with Mrs. Oswald's manuscript. And I would hope that the Commission could consider Robert Oswald's diary in the same light that you would consider this manuscript. I am not saying that either have any commercial value, but if they do I would hope that they would inure to the benefit of Mrs. Oswald's family and the benefit of Robert Oswald's family.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. We will consider that, also. But there are some portions of the diary of Mr. Oswald that are in the record already as a result of his examination, as there are things involved in this document of Mrs. Oswald's that are in the record by question and answer.

Mr. McKENZIE. There is one other thing, and then I will close on this particular subject. Mrs. Oswald does not have a copy of the manuscript of her memoirs. Her former attorney, Mr. Thorne, or her former so-called business manager, Mr. James Martin, reportedly to me has such a copy. But at the present time she does not have a copy of this manuscript nor do I have a copy of the manuscript.

The CHAIRMAN. You may have one immediately.

Mr. McKENZIE. Fine, sir--I would like to say at the Commission's expense.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; of course, we will see you have one.

Mr. McKENZIE. At the time that Robert Oswald gave his testimony to the Commission, Mr. Jenner and Mr. Liebler followed the practice of taking originals and photostating them or Xerox copying them and giving the originals back. Before we do close today, I would like to make a request on the record to have all the articles that Marina has brought up here in the way of letters and things of that sort returned to her, with, of course, adequate copies for the Commission and its use. And I don't know whether you have any or not.

Mr. RANKIN. You have made your request.

The CHAIRMAN. We will consider that along with the other things. Mr. Rankin, will you continue now?

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Coulter, could you state for the record whether you have related this colloquy to Mrs. Oswald, so that she is informed of it?

Mr. COULTER. I gave it to her in general terms, that they were discussing the question of the rights to her manuscript and the rights to the originals of the various objects in her possession, which she had made available to the Commission.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you.

(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, I have one other offer to make, and I would like to offer it under Exhibit No. 994, and that would be a translation of this document, that would present the same problems.

We have a translation that was made by Mr. Gopadze, the Secret Service agent, who is quite familiar with the Russian language. But we earlier today had a letter that Mrs. Oswald wrote to the Civil Liberties Union of Dallas, and she questioned some of the translation from Russian into English, which was not done by any of our people, of course. And we are not so sure about Mr. Gopadze's translation. So we would like to follow what was suggested at that time, that Mr. Coulter make a translation of this, which we would submit to counsel for Mrs. Oswald, and Mrs. Oswald, for them to be satisfied it is a correct translation, and then make that translation a part of the record, subject to your deciding later whether it should be.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, instead of referring it to Mr. Coulter, we will refer it to Mrs. Oswald's attorney, and he can have prepared any translation that he wishes, and then we will have it for comparison with the other.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, I thought we would save them the expense.

The CHAIRMAN. I would rather deal directly with the counsel, and then we are not in any cross purposes. He can have it done any way he wants.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chief Justice, with your kind indulgence, sir, and the Commission's kind indulgence, Mr. Coulter's translation of this document would be more than satisfactory with Mrs. Oswald and with myself. And, quite frankly, the funds which she has available to her for such a purpose are so extremely limited that it would be an extreme hardship on her to employ an interpreter to translate it.

The CHAIRMAN. That is perfectly all right, that Mr. Coulter should do it. I have no objection at all to Mr. Coulter. Only when we are dealing with a client of a lawyer, we like to deal directly with him, and he can deal with the translator if he wishes.

Mr. McKENZIE. I think we are both trying to serve the same purpose. But Mr. Rankin and I, I think, are in full agreement on Mr. Coulter's interpretation of this manuscript--if that is satisfactory with the Commission.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; if it is satisfactory with you, it is satisfactory with me. There is no question about that.

Mrs. OSWALD. Maybe in this manuscript many details are lacking which have been developed in my testimony, because I wrote it mainly for public consumption.

Mr. RANKIN. We understand, Mrs. Oswald. I am sure the Commissioners all understand that the manuscript is something that was referred to in order to inquire from you during your giving of testimony, and that your testimony, together with the manuscript, should be considered if there is any question, because you do not purport to cover everything in the manuscript. Is that what you are saying?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am very ashamed that there is so much unnecessary information in this manuscript and that it caused the interpreter so much difficulty in translating it.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, I then offer under Exhibit No. 994, and I make, without repeating them, the same suggestions I did about the Russian document, Exhibit No. 993, and ask that we follow the procedure of getting the translation, and then make it a part of this record, subject to the Commission's determining that it should be.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be done in that manner.

Mr. RANKIN. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, do you have some matters?

Mrs. OSWALD. I would like to know if the Commission wants me to make some comment on any differences in substance between the manuscript and the testimony which I have given, or between the manuscript or the translation, whichever translation may be accepted, or both.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will ask the questions, if there is anything of that nature. Now, Congressman Ford, do you have some questions?

Representative FORD. Yes, Mr. Chief Justice, I have a few questions. In the Soviet Union, when a marriage application is applied for, what are the steps that you take?

Mrs. OSWALD. There are certain applications which have to be filled out by the boy and girl.

Representative FORD. Do you have to go down together to make the application?

Mrs. OSWALD. It is necessary for both to appear with their passports and fill out this application.

Representative FORD. In other words, Lee Harvey Oswald had to take his passport down to--at the time that he applied for a marriage application?

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee Oswald did not have his passport at the time since it was in the American Embassy. He went with his residence permission to the office. But our marriage was entered into his American passport after we were married and before we left the Soviet Union for the United States.

Representative FORD. So it is not the passport in the sense that we think of a passport, that we get to travel to a foreign country?

Mrs. OSWALD. Since most marriages are concluded between Soviet citizens, they only present their internal passports to the marriage license bureau. But if there is a marriage between a Soviet citizen and a foreigner, he presents his residence permission and his foreign passport, also, if he has one. If he doesn't have it, the residence permission is enough.

Representative FORD. Do we have the document that he presented at the time he applied for marriage?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. I think he had to turn that in before he left the Soviet Union.

Mr. McKENZIE. Are you referring to his American passport?

Representative FORD. No; I am referring to the document that he presented at the time he applied for marriage.

Mr. McKENZIE. Which would be a Russian instrument?

Representative FORD. Right.

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know if it is available. I think he had to turn it in before he left the Soviet Union.

Representative FORD. In other words, both you and Lee Harvey Oswald signed the necessary documents for marriage?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative FORD. During your period in Minsk, following your marriage, did you and Lee Harvey Oswald have any marital difficulties, any problems between the two of you?

Mrs. OSWALD. We had some difficulties in connection with the fact that I told my uncle and aunt that we were going to leave for the United States. Lee did not want me to tell anybody that we were preparing to leave for the United States.

Representative FORD. That was the only difficulty you had?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative FORD. Was your vacation trip to Kharkov--was that a vacation, or did that result from any marital difficulty?

Mrs. OSWALD. My aunt invited me to Kharkov, and that is why I went. It was not the result of any marital difficulties.

Representative FORD. You testified a few minutes ago, Mrs. Oswald, that there was a difference in the historic diary and what Lee Oswald told you concerning the status of his application for Soviet citizenship. You have read the historic diary?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have only read what the FBI agents translated, those parts of the diary which were translated into Russian by the FBI.

Representative FORD. Was that much of it or a small part of it?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was the part about his attempt at suicide.

Representative FORD. And also the part concerning the status of his Soviet citizenship?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think that that is the part which deals with his application for Soviet citizenship. I don't know of any other parts of the diary in which this would be set forth.

Representative FORD. You have no idea of when he wrote the historic diary?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know when he began, but I know that after we were married he spent the evenings writing his diary. I think that is the reason why he didn't want me to study English while we were still in Russia, because he didn't want me to be able to read his diary.

Representative FORD. He never read you the diary in Russian?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Representative FORD. On the trip back to the United States, Lee Oswald wrote on the Holland-American Line paper some additional comments. Did you see him write this on the trip?

Mrs. OSWALD. I saw him writing this when we were in the cabin on the ship. I thought they were just letters, though, and I didn't read them. He didn't write these when I was around.

Representative FORD. He didn't write them while you were present?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. REDLICH. I might mention for the record that this document has already been introduced as Commission Exhibit No. 25.

Representative FORD. If you didn't see him write it in the cabin how did you know he wrote it?

Mrs. OSWALD. In the first place, because the paper was from the Holland-American Line, and then I think--in the second place, because I saw these pages covered with writing in the cabin, and I think that he must have gone some place else on the ship, such as the library, to do the actual writing.

Representative FORD. Have you read that which he wrote on the ship?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; I have not read them, because I don't understand English.

Representative FORD. He never read it to you in Russian?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Representative FORD. At any time on the trip back, from the time you started to leave the Soviet Union until you arrived in the United States, did you have any trouble at the border of the Soviet Union or any other country?

Mrs. OSWALD. We had no difficulty with the authorities of any kind on any border. I think that my husband may have had some financial difficulties in New York, when he arrived.

Representative FORD. You left the Soviet Union by what means, now?

Mrs. OSWALD. Train and boat.

Representative FORD. You went from the Soviet Union to Poland by train?

Mrs. OSWALD. We took a train from Moscow to Amsterdam, through Poland and Germany.

Representative FORD. You had no difficulty going into Poland, going through Germany?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Representative FORD. Or into Holland?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. And there were no difficulties in our entering the United States, either.

Representative FORD. When you were living at Elsbeth Street, did you and Lee have any domestic trouble?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative FORD. Could you relate how frequently and how serious they were?

Mrs. OSWALD. The first difficulty we had was at Elsbeth Street when I told the landlady that I was from Russia. My husband had told her that I was from Czechoslovakia, and he became very angry with me for telling her I was from Russia, and said that I talked too much.

Representative FORD. That was the first incident?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative FORD. Were there others?

Mrs. OSWALD. Then we had difficulties because I had a number of Russian friends in Elsbeth Street, around there, in Dallas, and he was jealous of me, and didn't want me to see them.

Representative FORD. During this time, did he physically abuse you? Did he hit you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative FORD. Did Mr. De Mohrenschildt reprimand Lee for his abuse to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. He didn't support this. He didn't favor this conduct of my husband's. But I don't think he ever said anything to him about it, or told him that he shouldn't do it.

Representative FORD. Mr. De Mohrenschildt didn't say anything to Lee Oswald in your presence about his abuse towards you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; not in my presence.

Representative FORD. Did Mr. De Mohrenschildt take you to Mellers, was it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Anna Meller--no; he did not.

Representative FORD. Mr. De Mohrenschildt did not take you there?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; we had a quarrel, and I took the child and took a taxi, and went by myself there.

Representative FORD. Did you have money to pay for a taxi?

Mrs. OSWALD. Anna Meller paid for the taxi.

Representative FORD. When you got to Anna Meller's?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative FORD. I believe that is all, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles, do you have any questions?

Mr. DULLES. A couple, Mr. Chief Justice.

You have described this morning briefly the manner of your life in Minsk. I wonder if you would also now discuss that in the United States. What did you do with your leisure time, how did Oswald handle his leisure time when he wasn't working?

I am speaking of your stays in Dallas, Fort Worth, and New Orleans.

Mrs. OSWALD. My life in the United States was not quite as carefree as it had been in the Soviet Union. I was occupied all the time with housework, and I couldn't go anywhere. Lee spent a good deal of time reading.

Mr. DULLES. Were you together most of the time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. So that you knew where Lee was. Lee wasn't away on trips much of the time, except for his trip to Mexico, and when he was absent in New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. We were together.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know what he was reading in those days?

Mrs. OSWALD. He read nonfiction almost entirely and mainly historical works.

Mr. DULLES. Was he reading Russian books or mostly English books?

Mrs. OSWALD. He could read Russian, but he read only English works.

Mr. DULLES. Was he doing much writing in this period, during the American stay?

Mrs. OSWALD. When we were living on Elsbeth Street, he wrote something, and also on Neely Street, I think it was in connection with the Walker, General Walker incident.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know what happened to that particular writing?

Mrs. OSWALD. I know that he destroyed this after the Walker business.

He had a map of Dallas, and he used to go off by himself and think about the map, and work on it. I think you have this map in among the materials of the Commission. He used to work on it, and the least disturbance used to upset him very much when he was working on this map.

Mr. DULLES. When you say he used to go away, do you mean go away in the house or outside the house with the map?

Mrs. OSWALD. In the house, in the kitchen, and would tell me not to come in, not to make any noise at all.

Mr. DULLES. Could you specify as to time and date, as to about when he acquired this map and began this study of the map?

Mrs. OSWALD. Could I ask the Commission just when we were living on Elsbeth Street, since I have forgotten?

Mr. REDLICH. November 1962 to March 1963. November 3, 1962 to March 2, 1963.

Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was at the end of January, it was after New Years. I think he had a map all the time, but he started becoming particularly occupied with it at the end of January 1963.

Mr. DULLES. 1963?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Did Oswald, to your knowledge, have friends, associates, other men whom he saw, in addition to the considerable number whom you have described as your friends in Dallas and Fort Worth, whom you have already described? Did he have any business friends or any other friends you can think of that used to come to the house?

Mrs. OSWALD. No one, except for my friends whom I have already told you about.

Mr. DULLES. That is all I have, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman, did you have any more?

Mr. DULLES. I was speaking of the United States.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he told me that he was working on this map in connection with the bus schedules. He had a kind of bus schedule, and--a paper with bus schedules on it, and he was somehow comparing them or working on them, or doing something with these two documents.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford?

Representative FORD. When you left the Soviet Union, Lee borrowed money from the U.S. Government to pay for your transportation back to the United States. Did you have any other money of your own at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. We had--it is permissible to exchange a certain amount of Soviet rubles into American dollars in such cases, and we did exchange some Soviet rubles--I think about $180 worth--when we left. But that wasn't enough to pay the whole trip.

Representative FORD. Lee had borrowed from the Government approximately $600?

Mr. RANKIN. $450, and then the exchange made a total of $600 and something.

Representative FORD. This $180 was used with the State Department money for the transportation and the funds for the trip?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know, since my husband took care of that whole matter. He never talked about money with me.

Representative FORD. Would you describe one of the border crossings? What did the Government officials do when you went from Poland into Germany, for example? Tell us what actually happened.

Mrs. OSWALD. The train stopped and people come in and check your documents.

On the Russian border, of course, people come in and look at your bags--that is to say, they don't rifle through everything, but they pick things at random and look at them.

Representative FORD. Did Lee carry all the documents?

Mrs. OSWALD. He carried all the documents, since I had the baby to look after.

Representative FORD. At the Polish-German border, did they actually examine the documents?

Mrs. OSWALD. More carefully between Russia and Poland than between Poland and Germany.

Representative FORD. Did Lee make any acquaintances on the train and the boat?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Representative FORD. Did----

Mrs. OSWALD. On the boat there were two Rumanian girls we talked with, since I had studied a little bit of Moldavian before, which is similar to Russian, and could speak a little. And on that basis we met and talked a little.

Representative FORD. Did George De Mohrenschildt at any time take you any place from the Elsbeth Street residence?

Mrs. OSWALD. Only to his house.

Representative FORD. Did Lee accompany you at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; once he took us both home to see his daughter. He took us--took me to see his daughter, at a time when I was living in Fort Worth, and Lee was living in Dallas. I might be confused about just who went, and when.

Representative FORD. But he only took you once from one place to his house?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; we went several times to his house. Maybe two or three times.

Representative FORD. Did Lee accompany you on any of these occasions?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. De Mohrenschildt took us once to the Ford's house. It was on New Year's, I think, Katya Ford's house. It was either Christmas or New Year's. I don't think that Mr. De Mohrenschildt is as dangerous as he sounds. This is my personal opinion.

Representative FORD. I wasn't implying that he was dangerous. I was just trying to----

Mrs. OSWALD. He talks all the time. Did he appear before the Commission or not?

Mr. RANKIN. We have his testimony.

Representative FORD. I have nothing further.

The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all, Mrs. Oswald. Thank you very much.

Mr. McKENZIE. I have some questions, if I may.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; Mr. McKenzie.

Mr. McKENZIE. You mentioned earlier, in response to some question, that your husband had stated that the Soviet Government wanted him to become a Soviet citizen, but that his diary says the opposite.

When did you first learn that the Soviet Government wanted Lee Harvey Oswald to become a Soviet citizen?

Mrs. OSWALD. I heard this 3 months after we were married, from Lee.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did any Soviet----

Mr. DULLES. Who did you hear it from?

Mrs. OSWALD. From Lee.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did any Soviet Government official come to see you or Lee after you were married, and visit with you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did Lee, from time to time, have to report to any Soviet Government agency after you were married?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. And how often did he make a report to a government official or to a government agency?

Mrs. OSWALD. He had to go every month or every 3 months. I don't remember how often. It was either every month or every 2 or 3 and get a stamp in his residence permit.

Mr. McKENZIE. And how long would he be gone on those occasions from home, or from work?

Mrs. OSWALD. About half an hour.

Mr. McKENZIE. You have mentioned that he had Cuban friends and friends from the Argentine in Minsk. Did he ever have any Mexican friends in Minsk?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did he ever mention to you anyone that he knew in Mexico, either from Cuba or from the Soviet Union or from any other place, any name of anyone?

Mrs. OSWALD. He might have had some, but I don't know anything about any of them. He never mentioned it.

Mr. McKENZIE. It has been reported that--in the papers--that at the time you left New Orleans, or at the time that Lee Harvey Oswald left New Orleans, that he had two books on Marxism and a fiction book written by Ian Fleming called "To Russia With Love." Do you recall seeing that book there in the apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. I only knew about the two books on Marxism and Leninism. I don't know anything about this third one.

Mr. McKENZIE. And those books you know about, were they books from the public library in New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think these were his own private possession. I think he had even a book in English when he was in Russia on Marxism.

Mr. McKENZIE. After your arrival in the United States, and after you had left Fort Worth, and had moved into your own apartment, did your husband have any money?

Mrs. OSWALD. When he left Dallas for Fort Worth?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. I think he had some money saved up. He always was saving money for a rainy day.

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. McKENZIE. From what source did he save that money? Where did the money come from?

Mrs. OSWALD. Only from his salary, from his wages.

Mr. McKENZIE. When he was not working, did he have any other source of money, or did he have money?

Mrs. OSWALD. When he wasn't working, he got some unemployment compensation from the place where he had been working.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did he ever receive money to your knowledge from any other sources, other than from the Government or from his work?

Mrs. OSWALD. The only sources I know of were the companies where he worked.

Mr. McKENZIE. Who did your husband consider as good friends of his in Dallas, Tex.?

Mrs. OSWALD. He was most friendly with George De Mohrenschildt. However, this is not a very nice thing to say for Mr. De Mohrenschildt's reputation. This has been--had a harmful effect on Mr. De Mohrenschildt's reputation as a result of the assassination, the fact that he was friendly with my husband.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did your husband have any other good friends? For example, did he consider Michael Paine a good friend of his?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; he didn't like Michael Paine. Therefore, I was surprised when they went to this meeting together. Perhaps they became friends after this. But it didn't seem so to me. He didn't show it to me.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did your husband ever give you money or did you ever handle money in caring for the household, or did he take care of the money?

Mrs. OSWALD. He never gave me any money. We would go shopping together, and he would make all the payments.

Mr. McKENZIE. Were there not times when you didn't have enough money and food in the house, and friends had to help you?

Mrs. OSWALD. It never happened that there was no food in the house and that friends had to help us. The only time when this might have been the case was immediately after our arrival in the United States, when I gave some Russian lessons to Mr. Gregory and his son, and he paid me for it. And once after we arrived Mr. George Bouhe saw that I was rather thin and took us to a grocery store and bought us a lot of stuff.

Mr. McKENZIE. And did Mr. George Bouhe or Mrs. Ford have to take you to the hospital at one time or another?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. For June?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not Mrs. Ford and not Mr. Bouhe.

Mr. McKENZIE. Who was it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Lydia Dymitruk took me to the hospital.

Mr. McKENZIE. That is all I have, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mrs. Oswald, I think that will be all.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chief Justice, before we close for the day I do have one request I would like to make of the Commission on the record.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. On behalf of Mrs. Oswald, I would like to have returned to her the original or original copies of all letters which she has previously furnished to the Commission, diaries, pictures, or any personal property of Lee Harvey Oswald that was presented to the Commission, including his personal effects and his diary, in particular his wedding ring, a watch, belt buckles, or any personal effects belonging to either Lee Harvey Oswald or Mrs. Oswald that have been presented as original exhibits to the Commission.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will consider that in connection with all the other things that you asked for in connection with her writings.

Mr. McKENZIE. And may I respectfully ask this. In the Commission's consideration of our request, in connection with the original instruments or documents, or whatever it may be, do you at this time have any idea how long it would be before the Commission would decide?

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I think----

Mr. McKENZIE. Mind you, I ask that as respectfully as I possibly can.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I answer you as well as I can. We are driving to conclude the work of the Commission, and we believe that it will be completed in the next month--we hope so, anyway.

Mr. McKENZIE. Of course she has no objection whatsoever for the Commission to have the documents which it now has as long as the originals are returned to her.

The CHAIRMAN. We will give consideration to that, because there are some things that are evidence here, that belonged to him, that perhaps will have to remain evidence. I can't make any analysis of all of those things at the present time. But, for instance, let us say, the gun.

Mr. McKENZIE. We want that, too.

The CHAIRMAN. I say, we will give consideration to that. But I cannot give you any assurance of it at this time.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, I would like to have the record show at this point--we have no objection to what you propose and say we should do about supplying new copies of material, but I don't want the record to indicate we took their copies away from them, because we understand their manager and former counsel kept the copies or the originals, and have them. So that we are not just taking them for ourselves. I don't want the record to appear----

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Rankin, I would not have the record reflect that, either. And I say that at all times that they were voluntarily given to the Commission. And the only thing I am asking for is a return of everything Mrs. Oswald has previously furnished the Commission, with the understanding that the Commission has the copies of them--she wants the originals back. In particular, there is a wedding ring that I would like to ask the Commission to return at this time.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, these things will have to be considered, all of them, by the whole Commission, Counsel. But we will give them consideration. We won't be turning anything back today, because we want the whole Commission to see what is essential.

Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. I think that will be all. The Commission will adjourn.

(Whereupon, at 3:35 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Tuesday, June 16, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT ALAN SURREY

The President's Commission met at 10:15 a.m., on June 16, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, and Representative Hale Boggs, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; and Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel.

(Members present: Chief Justice Warren, Senator Cooper, and Representative Boggs.)

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Surrey, we have asked you to come here to testify concerning two things. The first is we want to ask you concerning the printing of a publication entitled, "Wanted for Treason" that appeared on the streets November 22, 1963, in Dallas. And then we propose to ask you also some questions about the home of General Walker, in connection with an attempt that was made on his life some time before the 22d of November. You are prepared to testify, are you?

Mr. SURREY. I talked to Mr. Jenner. I am prepared to testify as concerns the Walker episode. I do not wish to testify as concerns the wanted poster, or the "Wanted for Treason."

The CHAIRMAN. For what reason--what reason do you assign for not wanting to? It is not a question of whether a witness wants to testify here. He is subpenaed to testify, and he must testify unless he has a privilege.

Mr. SURREY. I believe that my answers would tend to incriminate me under the fifth amendment.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. You are entitled to raise that question. And, if you do, that privilege will be respected. But we will ask you a question concerning it, and if you claim your privilege it will be respected. And then if you want to testify--are willing to testify about the other matters, you may do so.

Would you rise and raise your right hand and be sworn? You solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SURREY. I do.

Representative BOGGS. Mr. Chairman, I would suppose that we would not be limited to one question. If he wants to plead the fifth amendment, of course that is his privilege. But I would hope that we could ask him several questions, and if he wants to plead he can plead on each question.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, on any phase of it that you wish to ask him a question, of course it is all right.

Mr. Jenner will conduct the examination.

Mr. SURREY. Is it my understanding that if I do invoke the fifth amendment to begin with, then I do not have the privilege of later on invoking it, is that correct?

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I believe it is a fact that on any phase of your testimony, if you testify in part about that phase, you can be required to testify fully concerning it. But if there is one phase of your testimony that you want to claim the privilege on, and are willing to testify as to other matters not connected with it, you can do so without waiving your privilege. Does that answer your question?

Mr. SURREY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. Mr. Jenner?

Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

Mr. Chief Justice, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 995 the original of the subpena served upon Mr. Surrey.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. A subpena was served on you, was it, Mr. Surrey?

Mr. SURREY. Yes; it was.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, it may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 995 for identification, and received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. You are appearing in response to the subpena?

Mr. SURREY. Yes; I am.

Mr. JENNER. Were you furnished with copies of the Senate joint resolution, or legislation which created--authorized the creation of the Commission?

Mr. SURREY. At a previous time; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And President Johnson's Executive order, and the rules and regulations of the Commission as to taking of testimony?

Mr. SURREY. Yes; I was. It was hard to read them.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; they are a little bit difficult to read.

In order that you may exercise the rights that you have indicated to the Chief Justice, I will question you first about the pamphlet, after asking you the preliminary questions as to your name.

Mr. SURREY. Robert Alan Surrey.

Mr. JENNER. And what is your address?

Mr. SURREY. 3506 Lindenwood, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. How long have you resided there?

Mr. SURREY. Eight years.

Mr. JENNER. And what is your age?

Mr. SURREY. Thirty-eight.

Mr. JENNER. Where were you born?

Mr. SURREY. Oak Park, Ill.

Mr. JENNER. When did you move to Texas?

Mr. SURREY. First moved there in 1948, and then left for 2 years, from 1951 to 1953, and then moved back to Texas.

Mr. JENNER. You are a college graduate; are you not?

Mr. SURREY. Yes; I am.

Mr. JENNER. What university or college?

Mr. SURREY. Northwestern.

Mr. JENNER. In Evanston, Ill?

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When did you receive your degree?

Mr. SURREY. 1948.

Mr. JENNER. You are married?

Mr. SURREY. Yes; I am.

Mr. JENNER. Is Mrs. Surrey a native born American?

Mr. SURREY. Yes; she is a Dallasite.

Mr. JENNER. She is a Dallas girl?

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What is your business, occupation, or profession?

Mr. SURREY. I am a printing salesman.

Mr. JENNER. For what company?

Mr. SURREY. For Johnson Printing Co.

Mr. JENNER. Is that located at 2700 North Haskell, in Dallas?

Mr. SURREY. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. How long have you been employed by Johnson Printing Co.?

Mr. SURREY. Seven years.

Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us in a general way what Johnson Printing Co. does? I appreciate the name in the title of the company indicates printing, but what kind?

Mr. SURREY. Commercial printing, advertising printing, house organs--just general commercial work.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have some military service?

Mr. SURREY. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Would you state what it was?

Mr. SURREY. I was 4 years in the Navy, in World War II.

Mr. JENNER. Are you also the president of a book publishing company located in Dallas?

Mr. SURREY. The American Eagle Publishing Co?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SURREY. Yes; I am.

Mr. JENNER. The only volume I have seen--there was a publication of reprints of newspaper stories.

Mr. SURREY. Called the Assassination Story, yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And your name appeared, I think, in that as the president of the company.

Mr. SURREY. A cover letter that was on the back cover.

Mr. JENNER. And----

Mr. SURREY. This was not our only publication. We have done many publications before that.

Representative BOGGS. Do we have a copy of this publication?

Mr. JENNER. Of this particular one?

Mr. SURREY. Mr. Alger's office came to me and requested two copies for the Warren Commission, which I furnished to him.

Representative BOGGS. Whose office?

Mr. SURREY. Congressman Bruce Alger's office.

Representative BOGGS. Did we make such a request through Congressman Alger?

Mr. JENNER. I am not advised as to whether we did or not.

Mr. RANKIN. I am quite sure we did not.

The CHAIRMAN. Did we receive any such copies?

Mr. JENNER. There is none among our exhibits in the exhibit room.

Mr. SURREY. His secretary called, and they came out to the house and got two copies of it.

Representative BOGGS. How long ago was this?

Mr. SURREY. Oh, I would say 3 weeks.

Representative BOGGS. When did you publish this book?

Mr. SURREY. I believe it was finally ready on January 1, right after January 1--January 1, 2, or 3, right in that area.

Representative BOGGS. What does the book allege?

Mr. SURREY. We took the 10-day period following the assassination from both Dallas papers, the Dallas Morning News, and Dallas Times Herald, and just all the clippings pertaining to it were in chronological order, and just shot them cold, and published them.

Representative BOGGS. Nothing else--just newspaper clippings?

Mr. SURREY. Just newspaper clippings.

Representative BOGGS. No editorial comment of any kind?

Mr. SURREY. Outside of the letter on the back; no.

Representative BOGGS. And what is the letter on the back?

Mr. SURREY. It said--this is just to the best of my knowledge, I don't recall exactly--"This is the local report of what happened when President Kennedy was assassinated. It is difficult to muzzle a local reporter in his own local paper. And we feel that some of the news that might not get out would be included in this book. We do not guarantee the accuracy of the information, but it will pose some questions, a few perhaps that the Warren Commission will not see fit to answer," I believe was in there.

Representative BOGGS. Not see fit to what?

Mr. SURREY. To answer.

Representative BOGGS. What was the implication of that?

Mr. SURREY. The implication being, as I see it, in Dallas--a local reporter--this is, for example. A local reporter from the Times Herald went down to the Western Union office several days after the assassination, and was told by the people in the Western Union office that, yes, they remembered Oswald, he had been in, he had gotten money orders, either the day before or just recently he had sent a wire to somebody, and they recalled his Swahili handwriting, and so forth. Well, I feel that surely Western Union knows who sent Oswald money, and so forth. Now, I don't know if this will come out of this Commission or not.

Representative BOGGS. The implication was that this Commission would not investigate these allegations?

Mr. SURREY. No--perhaps.

Representative BOGGS. Well, what did you mean by the word "muzzle"?

Mr. SURREY. Of the press?

Representative BOGGS. You used "muzzle" in this letter--written. I don't have the letter before me. I would like to have it.

Mr. SURREY. I don't, either. I would like to know what the exact wording was on it, sir.

Representative BOGGS. Did you write it?

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

Representative BOGGS. And the implication was that this Commission would not seek out the entire truth of the incidences arising----

Mr. SURREY. Oh, no, sir; this was not the implication of the muzzling. This was not the implication.

Representative BOGGS. What was the implication of the statement you made a moment ago, about questions that would not be asked by this Commission?