Chapter XXXIX: Section 51: 135, entitled "Denial of passports to members of Communist (9)

Mr. JENNER. Coupled with a political arm which was to aid or assist in the business, and each was to feed the other?

Mr. WEISSMAN. The business arm was to be developed mainly to feed the political arm.

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. WEISSMAN. We were mainly interested in the political end. At least this is my feeling on it. Mainly interested in the political end. And the business end, while, of course, we hoped it would succeed, in my mind was merely to support us politically.

(At this point, Representative Ford reentered the hearing room.)

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, as of this moment, Mr. Weissman, there were the five of you only. There were no others who were part of the combination business-political group?

Mr. WEISSMAN. We left out one man, one of the original men. His name was James Moseley.

Mr. JENNER. Was he a GI with you?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No; he was an American civilian. His father was a major--is a major in the Army.

Mr. JENNER. And was he an acquaintance of yours?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Prior to this time?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Not prior to this. I met him when I went into the organization.

Mr. JENNER. I see. Was he an acquaintance of Mr. Schmidt's?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. How did he get in, is what I am getting at? How did he get into this little group here?

Mr. WEISSMAN. They all hung around the same bar.

Mr. JENNER. What bar?

Mr. WEISSMAN. The Gastatte Lukullus.

Representative BOGGS. How far was that from the bar where Hitler used to gather?

Mr. WEISSMAN. A couple of miles, I think.

Mr. JENNER. It is a bar in Munich?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes. It is a GI guest house.

Mr. JENNER. This man you have now mentioned, Moseley, was a civilian in Germany?

Mr. WEISSMAN. He was a civilian; yes.

Mr. JENNER. How did he come to be in Munich? Was his father stationed there?

Mr. WEISSMAN. His father was stationed there. But he was also employed by Rambler--he was selling Ramblers.

Mr. JENNER. What is Mr. Moseley's hometown?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What is Mr. Mosley's hometown?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I believe it is New York. I am not sure.

Mr. JENNER. How old a man is he?

Mr. WEISSMAN. He is a pretty young fellow. He is about 21.

Mr. JENNER. Now, have you named all of you who were the nucleus of this group?

Mr. WEISSMAN. To my recollection, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Had you finished your statement as to the general--the general statement as to the purpose of this organization which consisted of the two arms?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Not completely. I think what might bear directly is we had planned while in Munich that in order to accomplish our goals, to try to do it from scratch would be almost impossible, because it would be years before we could even get the funds to develop a powerful organization. So we had planned to infiltrate various rightwing organizations and by our own efforts become involved in the hierarchy of these various organizations and eventually get ourselves elected or appointed to various higher offices in these organizations, and by doing this bring in some of our own people, and eventually take over the leadership of these organizations, and at that time having our people in these various organizations, we would then, you might say, call a conference and have them unite, and while no one knew of the existence of CUSA aside from us, we would then bring them all together, unite them, and arrange to have it called CUSA.

Mr. JENNER. You never accomplished this, did you?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Almost. Here is how far we did get.

Larrie had--and this was according to plan--the first organization we planned to infiltrate was the NIC, National Indignation Convention, headed by Frank McGee in Dallas. About a week or so after Larrie got to Dallas he got himself a job with the NIC, as one of the very few paid men.

This didn't last too long, because a few weeks after that the NIC went under. And we had also--in other words, we had planned to use these organizations as vehicles to accomplish----

Mr. JENNER. Keep going on those details of your infiltration.

Mr. WEISSMAN. All right. We had planned to infiltrate these various rightwing organizations.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned one.

Mr. WEISSMAN. The NIC. The Young Americans for Freedom. We succeeded there.

Mr JENNER. What organization is that?

Mr. WEISSMAN. The Young Americans for Freedom? This was an organization essentially of conservative youths, college students, and if I recall I think the most they ever accomplished was running around burning baskets from Yugoslavia.

Mr. JENNER. Where was it based?

Mr. WEISSMAN. This is southwest. Regional headquarters was in Dallas, Tex., Box 2364.

Mr. JENNER. And the earlier organization, the organization you mentioned a moment ago, NIC--where was that based?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. All right. What is the next one?

Mr. WEISSMAN. We had also discussed getting some people in with General Walker, getting some people into the John Birch Society.

Mr. JENNER. Stick with General Walker for a moment. To what extent were you able to infiltrate, as you call it, General Walker's group?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, this was rather a fiasco. Larrie's brother, as I mentioned in the letter--Larrie's brother went to work for General Walker.

Mr. JENNER. What was his name?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't know his first name. But Larrie led me to believe his brother was some guy. His brother is about 29. And the only thing I ever heard from Larrie about his brother was good; and when he mentioned that his brother had joined the Walker organization, I figured this is another step in the right direction. In other words, he was solidifying his argument as to why I should come to Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. And this is what he told you?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Right. So when I got to Dallas, I found that Larrie's brother drank too much, and he had--well, I considered him a moron. He didn't have any sense at all. He was very happy with $35 a week and room and board that General Walker was giving him as his chauffeur and general aide. And so I tossed that out the window that we would never get into the Walker organization this way.

Mr. JENNER. This man's name, by any chance, was not Volkmar?

Mr. WEISSMAN. This name is entirely unfamiliar to me. Never heard it before.

Senator COOPER. Could you identify the Walker organization? You keep speaking of the Walker organization.

Mr. WEISSMAN. General Edwin Walker.

Mr. JENNER. General Edwin A. Walker?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet him?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No; I never have.

Representative FORD. How did you infiltrate the Young Americans for Freedom, and what led you to believe you had been successful?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, Larrie had been named executive secretary of the Dallas chapter of the Young Americans for Freedom. And another man--his name is in one of these letters somewhere--I don't recall it offhand--who was brought into CUSA by Larrie, was named chairman or vice chairman--vice chairman. And the only other move that we had to make in order to take control of Dallas Young Americans for Freedom would have been to get rid of the chairman, who was anti-Larrie Schmidt. He was absolutely no help to us. And this was on its way to accomplishment. But for some reason or another, there was some sort of an argument. I am still not clear on what happened. I wasn't there. I just can take it secondhand from Larrie.

A friend of Larrie's had come to Dallas--this was Larry Jones, another partner in----

Mr. JENNER. He is mentioned in some of these interviews. Did you meet Larry Jones?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I didn't meet him in Dallas; no. He was gone before I got there. But Larry had come to Dallas, he had stayed a few weeks, had made friends with these people, and I had advocated many and many a time--I saw through Larry the first time I met him--is to get rid of this guy, because he was not going to do us any good.

Mr. JENNER. You did meet Jones?

Mr. WEISSMAN. In the Army; yes.

Mr. JENNER. You met Larry Jones in the Army?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes. We were all on the same post.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, if you will permit, I would like to go back to that at this moment.

Representative FORD. Surely.

Mr. JENNER. This was another man. You hadn't mentioned him before.

Mr. WEISSMAN. I didn't? I thought I did.

Mr. JENNER. What rank was he?

Mr. WEISSMAN. SP-4, Specialist-4.

Mr. JENNER. That wasn't the company clerk?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No. Larry worked for headquarters. He was in communications--the scramblers and so forth.

Mr. JENNER. Seeking to scramble broadcasts?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No. In other words, they would send out the secret messages and so forth from commander to commander and so on.

Mr. DULLES. These were military messages?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. How old a man was Larry Jones?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Larry--he looked 30. I think he is 21.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have the charter or partnership agreement of CUSA with you?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. I wonder if I could see that.

Mr. WEISSMAN. Sure.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman; the document consists of two pages which have been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 1034. It is entitled "Corporate Structure of American Business, Inc.," naming as incorporators or partners, Larrie H. Schmidt, Larry C. Jones, Bernie Weissman, James L. Moseley, Norman F. Baker. It purports to be signed in those names as well on the second page.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1034 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. I notice on the first page that after each of those names there appear to be some initials. Are those the initials of those respective men?

Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And were those initials placed on there in your presence?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; they were.

Mr. JENNER. The signatures that appear under each of those names or above each of those names on the second page, those are the signatures of those men, including your own?

Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Were they placed on there in your presence?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, they were.

Representative FORD. Do you want that admitted at this time, Mr. Jenner?

Mr. JENNER. I was going to offer these documents in sequence, if it suits the convenience of the Chairman. If we may return now, Mr. Weissman, please, to your efforts to infiltrate various conservative groups----

Senator COOPER. May I ask a question there? I may have to leave in a few minutes. Was there any time when your organization drew up a list of organizations, of other organizations, that it wanted to infiltrate?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have that list with you?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't know. I have lost an awful lot of it. I might.

Mr. JENNER. Would you look, please?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No; I don't have it.

Senator COOPER. May I ask, then--can he name from memory the organizations?

Mr. JENNER. Using your recollection, sir, and it appears to be very good, if I may compliment you----

Mr. WEISSMAN. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. Would you do your best to respond to Senator Cooper's question by naming those various groups?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes. One was the NIC.

Mr. JENNER. When you use initials, will you spell out what the initials mean?

Mr. WEISSMAN. National Indignation Convention, headed by Frank McGee, in Dallas, Tex.

Young Americans for Freedom, which encompassed the southwest. The initials are YAF.

Mr. JENNER. Located in Dallas?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Regional headquarters in Dallas. John Birch Society.

Mr. JENNER. Where was the John Birch--was there a chapter or headquarters in Dallas?

Mr. WEISSMAN. There are several chapters in Dallas; yes. And as far as I can recollect, that is as far as we went.

Representative BOGGS. What did you hope to accomplish by this infiltration, as you call it?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, I will be very blunt.

Representative BOGGS. That is what I would like for you to be.

Mr. WEISSMAN. We were, you might say--at least I personally--this is my reason--I was sick and tired of seeing America as a weak sister all the time. And this is especially in the field of foreign affairs, where it seemed that our administration, whether it is the Eisenhower or the Kennedy administration, both of them, had no set, stable foreign policy. We were constantly losing ground all over the world. We were going to conference tables with everything to lose and nothing to gain, and coming away by losing.

And we hoped by developing a powerful political organization we could exert some influence on the government and eventually even put, you might say, our man in the White House, let's say, in order to obtain a stable policy--because we felt that the Communists were gaining ground all over the place, we were doing nothing but losing.

Representative BOGGS. Did you have a candidate for the Presidency?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Excuse me?

Representative BOGGS. Did you have a candidate--you said your man.

Mr. WEISSMAN. I wouldn't say we had a candidate. We had looked to Barry Goldwater as personifying Mr. Conservative. And we had stated in writing, though, that we would support him for the Presidency, but we were not obligated to support him or any other individual.

Representative BOGGS. Are you still in this business?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No.

Representative BOGGS. What are you doing now?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I am a salesman, I sell carpets.

Representative BOGGS. You have given up this goal?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, if I had money I didn't know what to do with, I would get back into it--only I would do it myself, because I found that in order to accomplish these aims--I mentioned before I considered myself an idealist. I found in order to accomplish these goals I had to against my will prostitute my ideals in order to further the general cause of the organization.

Representative BOGGS. What ideals did you find you had to prostitute?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I personally didn't want to associate with the John Birch Society.

Representative BOGGS. You did not want to?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No; I did not.

Representative BOGGS. Why didn't you?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Well; they are rather extreme, I thought. I didn't like some of the things they were doing. For example, I didn't want to spend my days and nights sneaking into bathrooms around the country, pasting up "Impeach Earl Warren" stickers.

Representative BOGGS. Is that what they do?

Mr. WEISSMAN. This is part of their program. And I can't see any use in it, frankly. In other words, it is just little things like this. Plus the fact that after I got to Dallas, I found that most of the people who are professing anti-communism, they were, they were definitely anti-Communists. But, at the same time, it seemed to me to be nothing but a conglomeration of racists, and bigots and so forth.

Representative BOGGS. What do you mean by that--bigots?

Mr. WEISSMAN. They are anti-everything, it seems.

Representative BOGGS. Are you Jewish?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I am.

Representative BOGGS. Were they anti-Jewish?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Too many of them, yes. It was requested at one time that I change my name.

Representative BOGGS. Is that right?

Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right.

Representative BOGGS. What did you tell them?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Excuse me?

Representative BOGGS. What did you tell them? Did you change your name?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No, sir.

Representative BOGGS. Well, did you find this request unusual?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I did, as a matter of fact, I got pretty mad.

Representative BOGGS. When you were in Germany, did you find sometimes, particularly in Munich, as long as you opened this line of replies, that some of the Nazi-alleged anticommunism was also associated with their racist policies?

Mr. WEISSMAN. In what vein are you using Nazi?

Representative BOGGS. Well, of course, you know they exterminated quite a few members of your religion in Germany.

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Representative BOGGS. That is a fact; is it not?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; it is.

Representative BOGGS. I am using Nazi in the normal term of state dictatorship, with all that it implies. I am sure you have worked on foreign policy, you understand what I mean.

Mr. WEISSMAN. I think you are giving me a little too much credit. But I think I can answer your question.

Representative BOGGS. I would like for you to.

Mr. WEISSMAN. At no time did I, and to my knowledge, in Germany, did we consider ourselves fascists or Nazis. As a matter of fact, in my every conversation, and everything I had written----

Representative BOGGS. I didn't ask you whether you had considered yourself as a fascist----

Mr. WEISSMAN. Or any of my associates, sir.

Representative BOGGS. Or any of your associates. I asked you if in your study of events in Germany, having been stationed there, that you didn't soon associate, or that you didn't see some association in your mind of the alleged so-called extreme right with naziism.

Mr. WEISSMAN. No. In fact, I never thought--I thought of the extremists as superpatriots. I had never really defined the term fascist or Nazi in my own mind----

Representative BOGGS. Of course, you realize that members of your religion in Germany were described as traitors, treasonable, and Communists. And I presume that on the other side of the coin those making the accusation classified themselves as superpatriots.

Mr. WEISSMAN. This is quite true. But you are getting into a field right now that at the time----

Representative BOGGS. Were you surprised when you discovered this anti-Jewish feeling? You must have been somewhat, shall I say, disappointed when one of your associates asked you to change your name. I would think that was right insulting.

Mr. WEISSMAN. It was downright insulting, as a matter of fact. No, I wasn't surprised. Now----

Mr. DULLES. Did you have something on this in your letter? I noticed you looking through that letter a minute ago. I thought maybe you had something on this very point in your letter.

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes. I received a letter from Larrie, while I was in Germany.

Mr. JENNER. Is this another document to which no reference has been made?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I am not sure whether this is the one I want to read from. But this letter is an answer that I wrote Larrie.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. I want to put an exhibit number on that.

This will be exhibit--Commission Exhibit No. 1035.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1035 for identification.)

Representative BOGGS. I would like for a moment to pursue this a bit. This gentleman is telling us something that I think is very significant. You have a letter there about changing your name?

Mr. WEISSMAN. This is my answer. I would like to read just this one paragraph.

Representative BOGGS. Who was this addressed to?

Mr. WEISSMAN. This was addressed to Larrie Schmidt.

Representative BOGGS. Did he ask you to change your name?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Representative BOGGS. He was your associate?

Mr. WEISSMAN. He didn't ask me directly. He had written a letter to Larry Jones, and Larry Jones gave me the letter.

Mr. JENNER. Where was Larry Jones at this time?

Mr. WEISSMAN. In Germany.

Mr. JENNER. You are now reading from Commission Exhibit No.----

Mr. WEISSMAN. Exhibit No. 1035. This is dated Munich, Germany, January 7, 1963.

(At this point, Senator Cooper withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. JENNER. It is addressed to whom?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Larrie Schmidt.

Mr. JENNER. And I take it it is your letter to Larrie Schmidt.

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you dispatch the letter?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And is that a true and correct copy of the original that you did dispatch to Larrie Schmidt?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Erasures and all; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And did you become aware of the fact subsequently to your mailing that letter that he received it?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You had occasion to discuss it with him?

Mr. WEISSMAN. He sent me a letter.

Mr. JENNER. He responded?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; he did.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Do you have his response?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't know. I have his response. I don't know if it is with me.

Representative BOGGS. Let's first have what he said.

Mr. WEISSMAN. Paragraph 2 on the second page, "Larrie, as relates to the political goals of CUSA and the methods of achieving them, I (not alone)"--meaning Bill Burley--"do not wholly support your ideas as concerning the NIC and related or affiliated organizations. It seems to us that this type of organization smacks of hypocrisy. I feel that any type of organization that we choose to support or begin to take support from should be free from the racism and prejudice in general that is rampant among the high officers of the NIC. It should be obvious to you that once we associate ourselves with these people, we may acquire a personal reputation that can never be lived down. I am sure you have considered this yourself, because I remember we had talked of it several times. Larrie, let me remind you that my zeal has not slackened, but that I did not want to compromise myself or my ideals for the sake of accomplishing our goals a year ahead of time. I know and you know that we can do a fantastic job once we get together again with or without these organizations."

Representative BOGGS. What do you say about your name, though?

Mr. WEISSMAN. About my name?

Representative BOGGS. Yes. Changing your name.

Mr. WEISSMAN. I didn't refer to it directly. In other words, in the letter I received from Larrie, he said--he mentioned that the NIC, the leadership, Frank McGee, was anti-Jewish, and it might be best if I changed my name in order to bring myself down to where I can associate with these people.

(At this point, Senator Cooper reentered the hearing room.)

Representative BOGGS. Do you have a copy of that letter?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Let me take a look here. With your permission, I would like to read into the record a paragraph----

Mr. JENNER. To what are you referring now, sir?

Mr. WEISSMAN. This is a letter sent by Larrie Schmidt to Larry Jones.

Mr. JENNER. And it is in longhand, is it?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize the handwriting?

Mr. WEISSMAN. It is Larrie's.

Mr. JENNER. It consists of seven pages, which we will mark Commission Exhibit No. 1036.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1036 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Before you read from the letter, how did you come into possession of the letter?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Larry Jones gave it to me.

Mr. JENNER. Over in Germany?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Over in Germany; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And the envelope which I now have in my hand, from which you extracted the letter, is postmarked Dallas, Tex., November 5.

Representative BOGGS. What year?

Mr. JENNER. 1962. Is that the envelope in which the letter, Commission Exhibit No. 1036, was received by Mr. Jones? I notice the letter is addressed to Mr. Jones, SP-4 Larry Jones.

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. We will mark that as Commission Exhibit No. 1036-A--that is, the envelope.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1036-A for identification.)

Mr. WEISSMAN. On the third page, last paragraph, he has marked "One bad thing, though. Frank gives me the impression of being rather anti-Semetic. He is Catholic. Suggest Bernie convert to Christianity, and I mean it."

"We must all return to church. These people here are religious bugs. Also no liberal talk whatsoever--none." Larrie had a flare for the dramatic.

Mr. DULLES. When he mentions "these people" who does he mean?

Mr. WEISSMAN. The NIC. And at this point I was ready to drop out of the organization completely, but thought better of it, because I am a perennial optimist. I felt once I got down there--it is like changing your wife after you marry her. You figure everything will work out.

Representative FORD. This CUSA organization in Munich--did it have any local Munich affiliation at all? I mean German affiliation?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No; none whatsoever. Strictly an American proposition.

Representative FORD. All among GI's, with the one exception of----

Mr. WEISSMAN. GI's or, one or two hangers-on, American civilians over there.

Senator COOPER. May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman?

You stated at one point in your testimony that you did not care to become associated with some of the organizations you had discussed. You named the John Birch--you thought it was too extreme. Yet you stated earlier that it was your intention to infiltrate these organizations. How do you explain this inconsistency?

Mr. WEISSMAN. It is difficult to explain. The situation being as fluid as it was--you find that without anything solid to go on, you have got to change your stand a little bit in order to just get started.

Senator COOPER. Let me ask you something else. You said that you all had thought that to be able to fully pursue your political objectives, you needed to have a certain financial independence, is that correct?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Did you intend to get some financial support from these organizations, in addition to political support?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No; not directly. We felt that after we had accomplished our goal--this is assuming we would accomplish our goal--any treasury that they had through membership dues or what-have-you would then be a common treasury, a CUSA treasury.

Senator COOPER. You had the idea that you could infiltrate and get control of these organizations, then you would have a source of revenue through their treasury, or through whatever treasury you were able to build up?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Did you think, also, in terms of contributions to these organizations from individuals?

Mr. WEISSMAN. It had been discussed--never very completely. It had just been brought up. But we didn't know exactly what we were going to do, really.

Senator COOPER. Was there any discussion about the support of these organizations--about the financial support of these organizations, that they might be a source of funds?

Mr. WEISSMAN. You mean from individuals who would contribute?

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Was there any discussions as to what individuals were supporting these organizations?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Just those that we had occasionally read about in Life or Look or Time--people like Hunt, H. L. Hunt.

Mr. JENNER. Of Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Of Dallas, Tex.--the oilman. In other words, people who are known to be conservative, sympathized with the conservative philosophy. And we didn't know at the time--in fact, I still don't know personally whether or not they do contribute. I just know it is said they do. But whether they do or not, I have no idea.

Representative BOGGS. It has been established, I presume, who paid for this newspaper advertisement.

Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, this is something else. I am still not sure of who paid for it.

Mr. JENNER. The newspaper advertisement is Commission Exhibit No. 1031.

Representative BOGGS. Did you bring the money in to pay for it?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I did.

Representative BOGGS. Do you know where you got it?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I know where I got it. But I don't know where he got it from. I got it from Joe Grinnan.

Mr. JENNER. Joseph P. Grinnan, Room 811, Wilson Building, Dallas, Tex., independent oil operator in Dallas.

Representative BOGGS. How did you happen to get it from him?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, Joe was the volunteer coordinator for the John Birch Society.

Representative BOGGS. And how did he hand it to you--in a check or cash?

Mr. WEISSMAN. In cash.

Representative BOGGS. How much was it?

Mr. WEISSMAN. It was a total of $1,462, I believe. We had 10 $100 bills one day, and the balance the following day. Now, as far as I know, Joe didn't put any of this money up personally, because I know it took him 2 days to collect it.

Representative BOGGS. Do you think you know where he got it from?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't know. I really don't know.

Representative BOGGS. He didn't tell you where he got it from?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No; he didn't.

Representative BOGGS. But you are convinced in your own mind that it wasn't his money?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; because he seemed to be--he didn't seem to be too solvent.

Representative BOGGS. Did you solicit him for this money?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No; I didn't.

Representative BOGGS. Who did?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I believe--well, I believe Larrie did. I think the idea for the ad originated with Larrie and Joe.

Representative BOGGS. And Larrie solicited the money?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No; I don't think so. I think it was Joe who originally broached the subject.

Representative BOGGS. How did you happen to end up with the money?

Mr. WEISSMAN. This was an expression of confidence, you might say, that Joe Grinnan had in me.

Representative BOGGS. Did you write the copy?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I helped.

Representative BOGGS. Who else?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Larrie.

Representative BOGGS. So Joe Grinnan gave you the money, and you and Larrie wrote the copy?

Mr. WEISSMAN. We wrote the copy before that.

Representative BOGGS. And then you paid for it. What was this committee? Are you the chairman of that committee?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, this is an ad hoc committee. I think we finally thought of the name--as a matter of fact, we decided on it the same morning I went down to place the original proof of the ad.

Representative BOGGS. What do you mean an ad hoc committee?

Mr. WEISSMAN. It was formed strictly for the purpose of having a name to put in the paper.

Representative BOGGS. Did you have many of these ad hoc committees?

Mr. WEISSMAN. This is the only one that I was involved in; that I know of.

Representative BOGGS. Were there others?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Not that I know of.

Representative BOGGS. Did you ever ask Joe where this money came from?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No; Joe was pretty secretive. I frankly didn't want to know. I was interested, but not that interested. And it didn't--it would have been a breach of etiquette to start questioning him, it seemed.

Representative BOGGS. Have you ever heard of H. R. Bright, independent oil operator?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No.

Representative BOGGS. Did you ever hear of Edgar Crissey?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No.

Representative BOGGS. Did you ever hear of Nelson Bunker Hunt?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; that is H. L. Hunt's son. I knew that he had gotten it from three or four different people, because he told me he had to get $300 here and $400 there, but he did not say where.

Mr. JENNER. The "he" is Mr. Grinnan?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Grinnan; right.

Representative BOGGS. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DULLES. Did you suggest that this advertisement had been drafted before he collected the money?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. And you used this advertisement as the basis for the collection of the money, or was it used for this purpose, as far as you know?

Mr. WEISSMAN. As far as I know; yes.

(At this point, Representative Boggs withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. WEISSMAN. May I see the ad for a moment? There are a few things I would like to point out in this.

Mr. JENNER. Give the exhibit number, please.

Mr. WEISSMAN. It is Exhibit No. 1031.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us the genesis of the advertisement, the black border, the context, the text, the part which Mr. Grinnan played, you played, and Mr. Schmidt played in drafting it, how it came about, what you did, in your own words. How the idea arose in the first place--and then just go forward.

Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, after the Stevenson incident, it was felt that a demonstration would be entirely out of order, because we didn't want anything to happen in the way of physical violence to President Kennedy when he came to Dallas. But we thought that the conservatives in Dallas--I was told--were a pretty downtrodden lot after that, because they were being oppressed by the local liberals, because of the Stevenson incident. We felt we had to do something to build up the morale of the conservative element, in Dallas. So we hit upon the idea of the ad.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell us who you mean?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Me and Larrie, Larrie and Joe, and then all of us together.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. WEISSMAN. And I originally--well, I took the copy of the ad to the Dallas Morning News.

Mr. JENNER. Please, sir--we wanted the genesis from the beginning. How it came about, who participated in drafting it.

Mr. WEISSMAN. About a week or so before placing the ad, Larrie and I got together at his house.

Mr. JENNER. The ad was placed when?

Mr. WEISSMAN. The first payment was made on the 19th or 20th of November.

Representative FORD. Was this after the announcement of the President's visit?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Representative FORD. You knew that President Kennedy was to be in Dallas on November 22?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. A week before that?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Right; we had started working on the ad. Larrie and I got together. And I said, "What are we going to put in it?"; because I didn't have the vaguest idea. And Larrie brought out a list of questions, 50 questions, that were made up for some conservative--I think it might possibly have been one of Goldwater's aides had just listed 50 questions of chinks in our foreign policy, you might say, weak points. And we just picked some that we thought might apply to President Kennedy and his foreign policy. Because the 50 questions went back quite aways. And all of the questions except for two I had a part in saying okay to. The two that I had no part in was----

Mr. JENNER. Read them, please.

Mr. WEISSMAN. Was the 11th question----

Mr. JENNER. Are those questions numbered?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No; but I will read it to you. It says "Why has the foreign policy of the United States degenerated to the point that the CIA is arranging coups and having stanch anti-Communist allies of the U.S. bloodily exterminated?"

This was handed in at the last minute by one of the contributors. He would not contribute.

Mr. JENNER. By whom?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I have no idea. But he would not contribute the money.

Mr. JENNER. Was this one of the men who gave money to Mr. Grinnan?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; this is my understanding.

Mr. JENNER. And did Mr. Grinnan tell you this?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; he said "This has to go in."

Mr. JENNER. He said that to you in the presence of whom?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I believe Bill Burley was there, and Larrie Schmidt.

Mr. JENNER. Where was this?

Mr. WEISSMAN. In Joe Grinnan's office.

Mr. JENNER. In Dallas?

Mr. WEISSMAN. In Dallas; yes.

Mr. JENNER. That is room 811 of the Wilson Building?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; and I was against this particular question, because I frankly agreed with the coup. But it is a question of having all or nothing.

Another question that was put in here--I forget exactly when--which I wasn't in favor of, which we put in after the proof was submitted to Joe Grinnan for his approval, is "Why have you ordered or permitted your brother Bobby, the Attorney General, to go soft on Communists, fellow travelers, and ultra-leftists in America, while permitting him to criticize loyal Americans, who criticize you, your administration, and your leadership?"

Now, this struck me as being a States rights plea, and as far as our domestic policy goes, I am a pretty liberal guy. So I didn't agree with that.

Mr. JENNER. Who suggested that question?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't remember. I just remember that it came up--I didn't like it. But the fact was that it had to be in there.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to keep you on that for a moment. Was it a suggestion that had come from a contributor, or did it originate in your group?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I really don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Or Mr. Grinnan?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't recall if it originated with Larrie or Mr. Grinnan or with someone else. I really don't know.

Mr. JENNER. How old a man is Mr. Grinnan?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I would say in his very early thirties.

Representative FORD. That suggestion, the last one, didn't come from you, however?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Which?

Representative FORD. The one you just read.

Mr. WEISSMAN. Oh, no.

Representative FORD. Because of your own liberal domestic philosophy?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Right. The only question in here that is entirely my own is the last one, and this is because I was pretty steamed up over the fiasco in Cuba and the lack of followup by the administration.

"Why have you scrapped the Monroe Doctrine in favor of the spirit of Moscow?" I will still stand by that question.

As far as the copy at the top of the letter, appearing before the questions, as far as I know, this was written by Larrie Schmidt. He showed it to me. I said, "It is a little rough, but if we are going to get our money's worth out of the ad, I guess it has to be."

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, may I stand over near the witness?

Representative FORD. Surely.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

When you say the copy at the top of the ad, does that include the banner, "Welcome, Mr. Kennedy, to Dallas."?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you are referring to all that portion of the ad which is Commission Exhibit No. 1031, down to the first question?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes. The idea of the black border was mine.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. I was going to ask you that. Why did you suggest the black border?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, I saw a proof of the ad--drew a mockup, the advertising man at the newspaper office drew a mockup, and it was the sort of thing that you just turned the page and pass it by, unless you had something to bring it out. And I suggested a black border. He put a one-eighth inch black border around. I said try a little heavier one. He went to a quarter inch black border and I said, "That looks okay," and we had the black border.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from your present statement that you worked with a copywriter or advertising composer at the Dallas Morning News.

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes. His name was Dick Houston.

Mr. JENNER. How many editions did this ad run for the $1,463?

Mr. WEISSMAN. One edition. It came out on the evening edition, on the 21st, and the morning of the 22d.

Mr. JENNER. Just one paper?

Mr. WEISSMAN. One edition, one paper.

Mr. JENNER. That is only the Dallas Morning News?

Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. It was not in the other Dallas papers?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No.

Mr. JENNER. The Times Herald?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No. We felt--we didn't even go to the Times Herald. We felt they would not even print it, because they are a very liberal paper, and we felt it would be a waste of time. We were convinced that the Morning News was conservative enough to print it. And they did.

Mr. JENNER. So the Dallas Morning News people were quite aware of the composition of the ad, and worked with you in putting it in final shape?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; as a matter of fact, I had asked to show it to a Mr. Gray, who was the head of the advertising department, and they said no, that wouldn't be necessary, they just have to submit it to a judge something or other, a retired judge who was their legal advisor, and who would look at the ad to see if there was anything libelous in it, so to speak, or anything that the Morning News could be sued for. And I assume they did this, because they didn't let me know right away whether or not they could print it.

When I came back that afternoon, or the following morning--I don't recall which--and they said everything was okay, that it would go.

Mr. DULLES. When you spoke of the head of the advertising department, that is the advertising department of the News?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Of the Dallas Morning News; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Weissman, you have read two questions with which you disagreed.

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You have read a question, which is the last in the advertisement.

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Of which you are the author, and you said you would still stand by that particular one.

Mr. WEISSMAN. A hundred percent; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, are there any others with which you had a measure of disagreement, or any other which you now would not wish to support or, as you put it, stand back of?

Mr. WEISSMAN. There was one other that I thought was being a little rough on the President, but which I didn't particularly agree with a hundred percent.

Mr. JENNER. Identify it, please.

Mr. WEISSMAN. It was in the question that read, "Why has Gus Hall, head of the U.S. Communist Party, praised almost every one of your policies and announced that the party will endorse and support your reelection in 1964?

I personally thought that the selection of this particular question tended to put President Kennedy in a light where he is voluntarily accepting this support--in other words, sort of calling him a Communist, which I felt he was not. And, at the same time, though, I had a reservation about making a big furor over it, because of the fact, if nothing else, if the President did read it, he might realize something, and he just might do something about it, in foresaking the support. So I let it go at that.

Mr. DULLES. When you spoke, then, of selection from a list--was that the list to which you referred before, which I believe you said came from the Birch Society?

Mr. JENNER. A list of 50 questions.

Mr. WEISSMAN. No; as far as I know it didn't come from the Birch Society. It was just some political material that Larrie had collected rafts of--he had books and folders. It was something he pulled out and said, "Maybe we can use this." And we went through the 50 questions. We were in a hurry, and this seemed to be the easiest way out, as far as getting some text, some composition for the ad.

Representative FORD. So the final selection rested with Larrie, Mr. Grinnan, and yourself, with the exception of this one contributor who insisted on one?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, let's put it like this. I signed my name to the ad. But you might say the final selection rested with the contributors. I had to go along with them, because if I said I won't go along with it, or I won't sign my name, there would have been an ad anyway--the ad would have been printed anyway. Larrie would have put his name to it.

Now, let me tell you this. It will be a very short story.

Bill and I had decided about a week after we got to Dallas that Larrie was full of hooey, that we could not go along with this guy.

Representative FORD. What do you mean by that?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, everything he is doing he is doing for himself, and if we happen to fit in, it was fine. And he was getting an awful lot of recognition and publicity. We felt if this guy got any stronger, he would be able to move us out, or control us. So when the idea for the ad came up I said, "Okay, I will put my name to it," because I felt any recognition that came would then be in my favor, and if we took advantage of this, and because these organizations would have to back me personally as representing them, I could then denounce the anti-Semitism, the anti-Catholic, anti-Negro, and they would have to back me up, or else I would just tell the whole story about this thing. And I felt that this was going to be my move to get back to the original philosophy of a completely democratic type of organization.

And I had discussed--Bill and I, I might say, were a partnership unto ourselves. We had decided one way or the other we were either going to get out of Dallas or run the thing ourselves, because we didn't like the way it was going.

Mr. DULLES. Did Larrie object to your being the one to sign the advertisement?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No; in fact, Larrie was sort of afraid to sign it, because when he came out and said he was part of the Stevenson demonstration, his life had been threatened, and he had all sorts of harrassing phone calls and so on. And he wanted to avoid this. But if it was a question of printing an ad or not printing it, he would have signed it.

Representative FORD. But as far as any organization of any kind being responsible for this ad, it was not true. There was no organization that backed this ad? There were four or five of you that really promoted it and finally raised the money for it and put it in the newspaper?

Mr. WEISSMAN. That is not quite accurate. You might say when you get right down to it, in the final tale, the John Birch Society printed that ad, not CUSA.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us why, now. Please expand on that.

Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, in order to get anywhere in Dallas, at least in the area of conservative politics that we were in, you had to, you might say, cotton to the John Birch Society, because they were a pretty strong group, and still are, down there. And----

Mr. JENNER. Who is the head of that now?

Mr. WEISSMAN. The Birch Society?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. WEISSMAN. I never met the fellow. They had a paid coordinator. I don't recall his name offhand. But, anyway----

Mr. JENNER. Were you in his offices?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No; Joe Grinnan, as a matter of fact, is the only man in the hierarchy of the Birch Society in Dallas that I met.

Larrie was a member of the JBS, and Bill and I didn't like it, but we saw that he was out for himself as much as anything, and this was a way to help himself along anyway, both politically and financially. And he convinced us of the method to his madness. But as I said we wanted to move Larrie out when we found he was more JBS than he was CUSA, and he was willing to go along with them completely, and forget about the CUSA goals.

Representative FORD. Your allegiance was to CUSA?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Right. In other words, I would have used the John Birch Society as a vehicle, as planned. But I would never have gone up on a soapbox to support them.

Mr. DULLES. Who were the members of the American Fact-Finding Committee, if any?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, the members would be myself, Bill Burley, Larrie Schmidt, Joe Grinnan--just the people immediately involved.

Mr. JENNER. That was a name and solely a name?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Solely a name.

Mr. JENNER. There was no such organization?

Mr. WEISSMAN. None whatsoever.

Mr. JENNER. And you used it for convenience on this advertisement?

Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right. As a matter of fact, when I went to place the ad, I could not remember the name. I had it written down on a piece of paper. I had to refer to a piece of paper for the name.

Mr. JENNER. Had you ever used that name before?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Never.

Mr. JENNER. Did your group ever use it thereafter?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Not as far as I know.

Mr. JENNER. Have you now named all of the people who played any part in, to the best of your recollection--in the idea for the publication of, the actual drafting of the ad, and its ultimate running in that edition of the Dallas Morning News?

Mr. WEISSMAN. There is only one other individual that I could name. He was there at the reading of the final proof, before the ad was printed. That was Joe Grinnan's brother, Robert P. Grinnan.

Mr. JENNER. Is he an older or younger brother?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I believe he is an older brother.

Mr. JENNER. What business is he engaged in?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Oil and real estate.

Mr. DULLES. Who took out the post office box 1792, Dallas 21, Tex., that appears under your name here on this advertisement?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Bill, Larrie, and I went to the post office together. I signed for the box.

Representative FORD. Do you recall the date?

Mr. WEISSMAN. It was the same--the morning--the same morning I originally went to get the ad laid out at the Morning News.

Representative FORD. Has it been discontinued?

Mr. WEISSMAN. The box? Yes; I received a communication from Larrie. He said the box time had run out. They had extended it for 3 months after that, and then it was--as far as I know, it is nonexistent now.

Senator COOPER. May I ask this question: Would you state now to this Commission the idea of printing this ad was conceived by you and Larry Jones--what is the other's name?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Larrie Schmidt.

Senator COOPER. Alone, and there was no stimulation from any outside group or organization. Do you state that under oath?

Mr. WEISSMAN. There was stimulation.

Senator COOPER. From whom?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I assume from the Birch Society. In other words, I think the idea for the ad, for the something to do on the occasion of President Kennedy's visit--I think the idea for the something to do came from the Birch Society--whether Mr. Joe Grinnan or someone else, I don't know.

Senator COOPER. Was it communicated as an idea to you?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Larrie communicated the idea to me, said what do you think. I said, why not?

Senator COOPER. Which one of this group did the idea come to?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't know.

Senator COOPER. It didn't come to you?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No; it didn't come to me personally originally, no.

Mr. DULLES. What is the basis of your evidence of saying this was the Birch Society? How did you know that? Where did you get that?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, it came to a point where everything we were doing we had to go talk to Joe--big brother. And that is just the way it worked out.

Mr. JENNER. This is Joe Grinnan?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes. They were getting a grip on us, and Bill and I felt that we had to bust this grip somehow.

Mr. DULLES. Was he prominent in the Birch Society?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; he was known.

Mr. DULLES. Joe Grinnan?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; he was known as a coordinator.

Representative FORD. This one question that was inserted at the insistence of one of the contributors, which reads as follows: "Why has the foreign policy of the United States degenerated to the point the C.I.A. is arranging coups and having staunch anti-Communist allies of the U.S. bloodily exterminated"--to what does that refer? Do you have any specific information?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I know it specifically refers to the Vietnam thing, with the overthrow of Diem, and the subsequent murder of the Diem people.

Representative FORD. Was that said to you at the time?

Mr. WEISSMAN. This was not said to me at the time. But I had mentioned it various times, and this was definitely, as far as I am concerned--this was definitely the reason for placing that. As a matter of fact, this had occurred not too long after that, I believe.

Mr. DULLES. Who was it that insisted on the insertion of that?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, Joe Grinnan handed me this piece of paper. It was written on a piece of scrap paper. I could hardly decipher it, myself. And he said, "This has to be in. Go back and have them change the ad."

So I had to run back to the Morning News, with this other insertion. This is just the way it happened.

(At this point, Senator Cooper withdrew from the hearing room.)

Representative FORD. I understand that you made a downpayment on the ad.

Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right.

Representative FORD. And then went back and paid the rest in full?

Mr. WEISSMAN. A thousand dollars the first day, and $400-odd on the second day.

Mr. DULLES. Were both payments made before publication?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles called attention to the post office box number.

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That stimulates me to ask you this: Did you receive any responses to the advertisement?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Oh, did I? Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, tell us about that and also, before you start, do you have any of those responses?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Not with me. All that I received I have at home.