Chapter V: Front Matter (5)

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. How close were you to him when he was talking to Hosty?

Mr. BRIAN. Right next to him when we were talking with him. We talked around there and how you meet, you know, you walk up together and meet and went on with him.

Mr. DULLES. You were walking toward the elevator at that time, weren't you?

Mr. BRIAN. Let me draw you a little picture of how that is down there.

Mr. DULLES. I have been in the basement so I know something about it.

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir. But the ramp goes up here, this is why it would be easier to draw a picture and it would be easier than I can explain. He came down the ramp.

Mr. DULLES. In the car?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And you parked in the basement?

Mr. BRIAN. And we parked the car, and Hosty had parked over here. You know the ramp is wide here and the other side goes up here, he had parked over in here and he was coming across this way and we coming across this way and we met.

Mr. DULLES. Where is the elevator which takes prisoners up where Oswald was shot?

Mr. BRIAN. Right through here, right in here somewhere is where Ruby shot Oswald and this is a ramp from the Main Street side and this is the ramp to the Commerce side. And this is the elevator.

Mr. DULLES. Where is the elevator?

Mr. BRIAN. The elevator is right there.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the prisoners' elevator?

Mr. BRIAN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Or the freight elevator?

Mr. BRIAN. No, sir; that is the elevator going up----

The CHAIRMAN. Which one did you take?

Mr. BRIAN. We took the elevator inside the city hall basement.

The CHAIRMAN. I see.

Mr. DULLES. Is there only one elevator there?

Mr. BRIAN. No, sir; there are two side by side. Back on this side of the basement there are two elevators over here and one freight elevator right back on in here. But this is to the city hall this direction and this is the ramp coming in from Main Street and the ramp going up to Commerce Street. We drove in this ramp one way going in this way and one way going out.

Mr. DULLES. Where are the stairs?

Mr. BRIAN. In the basement?

Mr. DULLES. You don't know?

Mr. BRIAN. There are no stairs in the basement. I mean out here where the cars are parked. Right here is the ramp, there is a walkway going up but it is not a stairway and then it levels off and you go by through here, and the jail is right here, do you recall the jail being here, on the right by the doors as you go in.

Mr. DULLES. I only saw the jail on top side.

Mr. BRIAN. Well, the jail office is right there at the head of this ramp, the jail office where they book the prisoners through.

Mr. DULLES. I didn't go in there.

Mr. BRIAN. That is the door they brought Lee Oswald out of when he was shot, going into the jail office right there.

Mr. RANKIN. There are no stairs from the basement to the third floor?

Mr. BRIAN. There are stairs inside of the basement but there are none out here, inside of the basement of city hall but none out here in the parking area.

Mr. RANKIN. Where are the stairs from the place where the elevators are that you took. Are there any stairs?

Mr. BRIAN. I didn't take any stairs.

Mr. RANKIN. No. You say you took elevators.

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Were there stairs near the elevators?

Mr. BRIAN. Back right over--let me get a pencil and draw the whole thing for you. That is about the way it is situated right there.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Brian, we will call that Exhibit 839. Will you just briefly tell the Commission what you have done in making that exhibit now?

Mr. BRIAN. All right, sir. I am not an artist. But we came down the ramp on Main Street, came around here to the parking area. Mr. Hosty was parked over here. There is a bunch of poles out there and I won't try to draw them in here.

Mr. RANKIN. Mark that "A" where Mr. Hosty was parked as you just indicated.

Mr. BRIAN. All right. And he was coming this way and we were coming this way. We met him about in the middle of this ramp out here, and talked, and----

Mr. RANKIN. You were right alongside of Lieutenant Revill?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir; and they walked on off and I came back behind through here to these elevators and off here we caught the elevators and went on up.

Mr. RANKIN. How close were you when you came behind them?

Mr. BRIAN. Just--I didn't keep a constant pace with them, but as far as--I don't recall exactly----

Mr. RANKIN. You were close to them, were you?

Mr. BRIAN. Here is the stairway in the basement, there is one narrow stairway going up to the first floor, and you pass it and you go by the phone booth and a jail office and you pass the stairway, it is right over here in the basement of city hall.

Mr. RANKIN. And you were close to them as you went across there to take the elevator?

Mr. BRIAN. I was behind them and they were going away from me and I was fairly close, yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. About how far?

Mr. BRIAN. Probably 6 or 7 feet or 8 feet behind. When we got to the elevator and we all stopped there together and caught the elevator.

Mr. DULLES. Where did the conversation take place, in front of the elevators there?

Mr. BRIAN. That I heard?

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. BRIAN. Right out here, because Mr. Hosty started blurting it out just as soon as he started across here.

Mr. DULLES. And you walked from this point here?

Mr. BRIAN. Over to here, to the elevators.

Mr. DULLES. Mark that point "B."

Mr. RANKIN. Where you met?

Mr. DULLES. Where you met Hosty.

Mr. BRIAN. OK.

Mr. DULLES. And you walked along, make a mark there, if you would, along there to the elevators where you walked.

Mr. BRIAN. That is not exactly that way, this is offset, you have to come over here to go up, it is not drawn exactly right, we walked across here to the elevators straight through.

Mr. DULLES. How far is that, a hundred feet--no, less than that.

Mr. BRIAN. It is much less than a hundred feet.

Mr. DULLES. Fifty feet, something like that.

Mr. BRIAN. Probably 60, 70 feet.

Mr. DULLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BRIAN. Something like that.

Mr. DULLES. Where is this, where does that stairway go?

Mr. BRIAN. Up to the first floor. Back in the hallway.

Mr. DULLES. And you are quite clear you didn't go up that stairway?

Mr. BRIAN. We didn't go up a stairway, no; not that stairway here.

Mr. DULLES. Or any other stairway?

Mr. BRIAN. Going up?

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. BRIAN. No, sir; we didn't go up the stairway going up.

The CHAIRMAN. When you got up to the first floor by that stairway, are there other stairs leading up to the floors above that connect with this?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir; you have to go around. This is just a narrow stairway going from the basement, it is probably, well, just a regular narrow staircase that goes up, straight up. After you get to the first floor the stairways widen out probably as wide as that window and go up half a floor and meet another landing and then go up to the third floor that way. They widen out.

Representative FORD. Was anybody with Mr. Hosty?

Mr. BRIAN. Not when we met him there; no, sir.

Representative FORD. When you got on the elevator, who was on the elevator?

Mr. BRIAN. It was full.

Mr. DULLES. Were there a lot of pressmen down there, no television----

Mr. BRIAN. I don't recall seeing any but there may have been some. I don't recall seeing any but there may have been.

The CHAIRMAN. You say the elevator was full?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. About how many people would it carry approximately?

Mr. BRIAN. Probably 10 or 12.

Representative FORD. Did Revill and Hosty and yourself get on the elevator?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Anybody else get on at that point that you recall?

Mr. BRIAN. As I recall there was a little interchange of people, some got off and some got on, I believe. I believe there was a little interchange of people.

Mr. DULLES. At the bottom, that is the bottom story for the elevator?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir; in the basement.

Representative FORD. As you got on the elevator and as you rode up, did you hear Hosty and Revill converse at all?

Mr. BRIAN. No, sir.

Representative FORD. There was no further conversation on this problem?

Mr. BRIAN. No, sir.

Representative FORD. When you got off the elevator where did you go?

Mr. BRIAN. Right on around. You get off the elevator and you come straight out----

Mr. DULLES. What floor--three?

Mr. BRIAN. Three. Went around to the left to Captain Fritz' office and turned right in Captain Fritz' office and I stopped right there at the door and he took him over and introduced him, talked to, I believe, Lieutenant Wells.

Mr. DULLES. Captain Fritz wasn't there at that time?

Mr. BRIAN. I don't recall seeing him in there. But Captain Fritz has got him a little office in the side and you have got to walk up in front and see if he is in there because he stays in there all the time.

Representative FORD. What did Revill and you do?

Mr. BRIAN. Went back down to our office.

Representative FORD. Gannaway's--is that Gannaway's office?

Mr. BRIAN. Gannaway's; yes, sir.

Representative FORD. As you drove----

Mr. DULLES. What floor is that on?

Mr. BRIAN. Captain Gannaway's is on the second floor.

Representative FORD. As you drove from the Texas School Depository Building after making a check of the facilities who was in the car?

Mr. BRIAN. Our car?

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. BRIAN. Let me see, Lieutenant Revill, myself, Westphal, Tarver, and we gave a man a lift, and I don't remember whether he was a CID, I don't know the man, I don't remember whether he was a CIC agent or a CID or OSI, he was some type of, as I recall, Army intelligence man.

Mr. DULLES. Army, Air Force, or something?

Mr. BRIAN. He was connected with the service and we let him out a couple of blocks, if I recall, up about Field Street, somewhere along in there. Lieutenant Revill knew him, who he was, and he rode up there with us.

Representative FORD. Who drove the car?

Mr. BRIAN. Lieutenant Revill. It was his car.

Representative FORD. Did you sit in the front or back seat?

Mr. BRIAN. Sat in the back seat on the left-hand side.

Representative FORD. Who sat in the front seat.

Mr. BRIAN. I don't recall.

Mr. DULLES. You were right behind Lieutenant Revill?

Mr. BRIAN. I believe I was right behind Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir; that is, I believe I sat in the back seat.

Representative FORD. When you got into the building and got out of the car, what happened to the other occupants of the car?

Mr. BRIAN. I don't know. They went on about, probably went up to Captain Gannaway, but I don't recall seeing them after we started talking to Hosty and went on, somewhere in the shuffle they didn't stay with us and went on.

Representative FORD. They didn't accompany you up the elevator?

Mr. BRIAN. No, sir; and I don't know where they went.

Mr. DULLES. That is they weren't among the possibly 10 men of the police who were in the elevator, as far as you remember, I mean?

Mr. BRIAN. As far as I remember; no.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Brian, I call your attention to Exhibit 857A and the fact that is a newspaper account and ask you to examine and state whether or not you recall having seen that before. I want to correct the record, that is Commission 857A which is attached to Exhibit 831.

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir; I read this in the Dallas paper, I believe.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with giving that to the paper?

Mr. BRIAN. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk to any newspaper people about it?

Mr. BRIAN. No, sir; haven't talked to any since it happened.

Mr. RANKIN. All you know about it is that you just saw it in the paper?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Then----

Mr. BRIAN. I know the next--it was supposed to come out on Friday because on Saturday they started calling my house and I left.

Mr. RANKIN. You never answered any of the calls?

Mr. BRIAN. No, sir; I never talked to any reporters about it.

Mr. RANKIN. That is all I have, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman, do you have anything?

Representative FORD. I don't believe so, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles?

Mr. DULLES. Give me just 1 minute, Mr. Chief Justice. In the second paragraph of your letter, Commission Exhibit 711, you say "Upon entering the basement of city hall," he, Agent Hosty, that you explained, who had already parked his car, he also parked his car in the basement of the city hall building?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir; over here where you told me to put "A" he was or in that area over there and was out of his car walking towards us.

Mr. DULLES. And you go on to say "and was walking very fast toward the entrance of the city hall from the parking area."

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir; that is this entrance over here.

Mr. DULLES. What is that marked? Is there a mark on that?

Mr. BRIAN. No, sir. You didn't tell me to mark "A" and "B" where we met.

Mr. DULLES. You might mark that "C," I think we have "A" and "B."

Mr. BRIAN. O.K., "C" would be the entrance by the jail office.

Mr. DULLES. That is right.

"At this time Hosty made the statement that Lee Oswald had killed the President, and that Oswald was a Communist."

Now, at this time, that is walking toward point "C" you have just marked on exhibit----

Mr. BRIAN. No, sir; we stopped here for a pause just for a short time, it would be hard to say how long but it wasn't because--it wasn't long because it don't take long to make a statement.

Representative FORD. That is point "B."

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Near point "B" is where this conversation took place.

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And you did not hear the content of any further conversations?

Mr. BRIAN. No, sir; other than that he said he knew he was a Communist and knew he was working in the Book Depository.

Mr. DULLES. Did further conversations take place between Lieutenant Revill and Agent Hosty after that?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir; they walked on talking.

Mr. DULLES. But you did not hear what they said at that time?

Mr. BRIAN. I was behind them and Lieutenant Revill got in a hurry when that happened and they got on and I was behind them, and it is pretty hard to hear what people are saying in front of you when they have got their back turned to you and you are behind them.

Mr. DULLES. You have indicated that in paragraph 3 of Exhibit 7. You say, "While we were in the basement Hosty also said several things to Lieutenant Revill that I could not hear," because of the excitement and commotion, that is what you had reference to?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir; they were conversing as they walked on and I couldn't hear them and I didn't hear what they said, I was behind them. I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to the whole thing because like I say I didn't think it would matter any. It was just--and things were happening pretty fast, and along about that time.

Mr. DULLES. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer the diagram, Exhibit 839, if I may.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, all right; it may be admitted under that number. Thank you very much.

(At this point Representative Ford left the hearing room.)

(Commission Exhibit No. 839 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. DULLES. That is the original before the notary public put his endorsement on it.

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir; that went forward.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, Mr. Specter is going to examine these people about the velocity and so forth and I want to speak on--speak to him just a minute about the matter we talked about.

The CHAIRMAN. We will take a break now.

(Recess.)

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT A. FRAZIER

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Specter, you may proceed.

You have been sworn and you are still under oath, as you understand?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your name again for the record, please?

Mr. FRAZIER. Robert A. Frazier.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Frazier, you have appeared heretofore to testify about certain tests which you have conducted, but at this phase of the record, will you state briefly your occupation and your specialty, please?

Mr. FRAZIER. I am a special agent assigned to the FBI laboratory, the firearms identification unit in Washington, D.C., where I make examinations of bullets, cartridges, gunpowder tests, bullet holes, examinations of clothing, and other similar types of examinations.

Mr. SPECTER. In the course of your duties have you had an occasion to examine the clothing which was purportedly worn by President John Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you have that clothing with you at the present time, sir?

Mr. FRAZIER. I have certain parts of it. I have the coat, shirt, tie, and the bandages and support belt which he allegedly was wearing that day.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you refer at this time to the coat, if you please, which, may the record show, has heretofore been marked as Commission Exhibit 393.

And by referring to that coat will you describe what, if anything, you observed on the rear side of the coat?

Mr. FRAZIER. There was located on the rear of the coat 5-3/8 inches below the top of the collar, a hole, further located as 1-3/4 inches to the right of the midline or the seam down the center of the coat; all of these being as you look at the back of the coat.

Mr. SPECTER. What characteristics did you note, if any, on the nature of that hole?

Mr. FRAZIER. I noticed that the hole penetrated both the outer and lining areas of the coat, that it was roughly circular in shape. When I first examined it it was approximately one-fourth of an inch in diameter, and the cloth fibers around the margins of the hole were pushed inward at the time I first examined it in the laboratory.

Mr. SPECTER. Did any tests conducted on the coat disclose any metallic substance on that area of that hole?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. I had a spectrographer run an analysis of a portion of the hole which accounts for its being slightly enlarged at the present time. He took a sample of cloth and made an analysis of it. I don't know actually whether I am expected to give the results of his analysis or not.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; would you please, or let me ask you first of all, were those tests run by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the regular course of its testing procedures?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they were.

Mr. SPECTER. And have those results been made available to you through the regular recordkeeping procedures of the FBI?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you then please tell us what those tests disclose?

Mr. FRAZIER. Traces of copper were found around the margins of the hole in the back of the coat, and as a control, a very small section under the collar was taken, and no copper being found there, it was concluded that the copper was foreign to the coat itself.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the characteristics of that hole, which you consider to be important for the Commission's consideration?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Assuming that those clothes, that jacket, specifically, at this juncture, was worn by President Kennedy, and was in the same condition when that hole was made as it is now, and at the time when you made your examination, do you have a professional opinion as to what caused that hole in the back of the jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I would say that it was an entrance hole for a bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is the reason for that conclusion, please?

Mr. FRAZIER. It has all the physical appearance characteristics which are considered when examining holes, such as its shape, its size, and in particular the fact that the fibers around the margins of the hole were all pushed inward where the cloth was torn by the object which passed through, and the fibers were unraveled as they were pushed inward, which is characteristic of a entrance-type bullet hole.

Mr. SPECTER. Is the presence of the metallic substance relevant in your conclusion that it was a bullet hole?

Mr. FRAZIER. Not necessarily. It is a factor which corroborates that opinion but even without it, it would still have been my opinion that it was a bullet entrance hole.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you tell the size of the bullet from the hole in the jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. The hole in the jacket is approximately a quarter of an inch in diameter.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that hole be consistent with a hole which would be caused by a 6.5 millimeter bullet?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; the actual bullet which makes a hole cannot be determined because the cloth in one instance may stretch more than it does in another instance causing either a larger or smaller hole even for the same caliber, but it is consistent for a bullet of 6.5 millimeters in diameter to make a hole of approximately this size.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any holes indicative of being bullet holes found on the front part of the President's jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have further occasion to examine the President's shirt?

Mr. FRAZIER. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that the shirt has heretofore been identified as Commission Exhibit 394?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; it may be.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe then on the back side of the shirt, Mr. Frazier?

Mr. FRAZIER. I found on the back of the shirt a hole, 5-3/4 inches below the top of the collar, and as you look at the back of the shirt 1-1/8 inch to the right of the midline of the shirt, which is this hole I am indicating.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show the witness is examining the shirt, as he has the coat, to indicate the hole to the Commission.

The CHAIRMAN. The record may show that.

Mr. FRAZIER. In connection with this hole, I made the same examination as I did on the coat, Exhibit 393. I found the same situation to prevail, that is the hole was approximately circular in shape, about one-fourth inch in diameter, and again the physical shape of it is characteristic of a bullet hole, that is the edges are frayed, and there are slight radial tears in the cloth, which is characteristic of a bullet having passed through the cloth, and further, the fibers around the margin of the hole were--had been pressed inward, and assuming that, when I first examined the shirt it was in the same condition as it was at the time the hole was made, it is my opinion that this hole, in addition, was caused by a bullet entering the shirt from the back at that point.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that hole consistent with having been caused by a 6.5 millimeter bullet?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the front side of the shirt, what, if any, hole did you find there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Only one hole.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask one question there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; certainly.

Mr. DULLES. Is the hole in the shirt and the hole in the coat you have just described in a position that indicates that the same instrument, whatever it was, or the same bullet, made the two?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they are. They are both--the coat hole is 5-3/8 inches below the top of the collar. The shirt hole is 5-3/4 inches, which could be accounted for by a portion of the collar sticking up above the coat about a half inch.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Mr. FRAZIER. And they are both located approximately the same distance to the right of the midline of both garments.

Now, on the front of the shirt, I found what amounts to one hole. Actually, it is a hole through both the button line of the shirt and the buttonhole line which overlap down the front of the shirt when it is buttoned.

Mr. SPECTER. Proceed.

Mr. FRAZIER. This hole is located immediately below the button being centered seven-eighths of an inch below the button on the shirt, and similarly seven-eighths of an inch below the buttonhole on the opposite side.

The CHAIRMAN. You are speaking of the collar button itself, aren't you?

Mr. FRAZIER. The collar button.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. FRAZIER. In each instance for these holes, the one through the button line and the one through the buttonhole line, the hole amounts to a ragged slit approximately one-half inch in height. It is oriented vertically, and the fibers of the cloth are protruding outward, that is, have been pushed from the inside out. I could not actually determine from the characteristics of the hole whether or not it was caused by a bullet. However, I can say that it was caused by a projectile of some type which exited from the shirt at that point and that is again assuming that when I first examined the shirt it was--it had not been altered from the condition it was in at the time the hole was made.

Mr. SPECTER. What characteristics differ between the hole in the rear of the shirt and the holes in the front of the shirt which lead you to conclude that the hole in the rear of the shirt was caused by a bullet but which are absent as to the holes in the front of the shirt?

Mr. FRAZIER. The hole in the front of the shirt does not have the round characteristic shape caused by a round bullet entering cloth. It is an irregular slit. It could have been caused by a round bullet, however, since the cloth could have torn in a long slitlike way as the bullet passed through it. But that is not specifically characteristic of a bullethole to the extent that you could say it was to the exclusion of being a piece of bone or some other type of projectile.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the characteristics of the front of the shirt holes which you consider to be important?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there. If the bullet, after entering, hit something that made it tumble or change, would that account for this change in the appearance of the exit through the shirt?

Mr. FRAZIER. I think not. In my opinion it would not have been necessary, if I may put it that way, for the bullet to have turned sideways or partially sideways in order to make an elongated hole.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Mr. FRAZIER. I think the effect in the front of the shirt is due more to the strength of the material being more in the horizontal rather than the vertical direction which caused the cloth to tear vertically rather than due to a change in the shape or size of the bullet or projectile.

Mr. DULLES. Or possibly the velocity of the bullet at that place, would that have anything to do with it?

Mr. FRAZIER. I think the hole would not have been affected unless it was a very large change in velocity.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Frazier, I notice that the front of the shirt immediately around the hole you have just been describing and in fact on much of the front of the shirt is bloodsoaked. Would that, with the other evidences you have seen there indicate to you as an expert that this was the exit of the bullet that had entered in the back of the coat as you have described it?

Mr. FRAZIER. The presence of the blood would have in my opinion no value for determining which was entrance or exit, because I have seen entrance wounds which bleed extensively and exit wounds which bleed not at all and vice versa. It depends entirely on the type of bullet which strikes, whether or not it mutilates itself in the body, and probably more importantly it depends on the position of the person who is shot after the shooting occurs as to where the blood will be located on the garments.

The CHAIRMAN. May I put it this way, probably a little better. Do the evidences that you see on this shirt indicate to you that this hole in the front of the shirt that you have just described was made by the bullet which entered in the rear.

Mr. FRAZIER. I can say that this hole in the collar area could have been made by this bullet but I cannot say that the bullet which entered the back actually came out here or at some other place because I am not aware of the autopsy information as to the path of the bullet through the body.

The CHAIRMAN. I see.

Mr. FRAZIER. But if the path of the bullet was such that it came through the body at the right angle, then one bullet could have caused both holes.

The CHAIRMAN. Could have caused both holes.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. That is sufficient.

Mr. DULLES. Is it correct that the blood on the shirt might well have been occasioned by the second wound rather than exclusively by the first wound?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it could have come from any other wound on the body as well as this one.

Mr. SPECTER. When you refer to any other wound, Mr. Frazier, are you referring to the head wound which is widely known to have been inflicted on the President at the time of the assassination?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to examine the President's tie or the tie purportedly worn by the President on November 22, 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show at this juncture that that tie has heretofore been marked as Commission Exhibit 395?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; it may show that.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you note, if anything, with respect to the tie, Mr. Frazier?

Mr. FRAZIER. When the tie was examined by me in the laboratory I noted that the neck portion had been cut from one side of the knot. However, the knot remained in apparently its original condition. The only damage to the tie other than the fact that it had been cut, was a crease or nick in the left side of the tie when you consider the tie as being worn on a body. As you view the front of the tie it would be on the right side. This nick would be located in a corresponding area to the area in the shirt collar just below the button.

Mr. SPECTER. As you now indicate on your own tie, you are indicating on the portion of the tie to your right?

Mr. FRAZIER. If it was on my tie it would be on the left side of the tie.

Mr. SPECTER. Your left side.

Mr. FRAZIER. The left side of my tie. There is a nick on the left side of the tie if you consider it as left and right according to the person wearing the tie.

Mr. SPECTER. Does the nick in the tie provide any indication of the direction of the missile?

Mr. FRAZIER. The nick is elongated horizontally, indicating a possible horizontal direction but it does not indicate that the projectile which caused it was exiting or entering at that point. The fibers were not disturbed in a characteristic manner which would permit any conclusion in that connection.

Mr. SPECTER. Is the nick consistent with an exiting path?

Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any indication from the nature of the nick as to the nature of the projectile itself?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Is the nick consistent with a 6.5 millimeter bullet having caused the nick?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. Any projectile could have caused the nick. In this connection there was no metallic residue found on the tie, and for that matter there was no metallic residue found on the shirt at the holes in the front. However, there was in the back.

Mr. SPECTER. Did any of the other----

Mr. DULLES. Excuse me, on the back of the coat?

Mr. FRAZIER. The shirt.

Mr. DULLES. Back of the coat and on the shirt?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did any of the other items of President Kennedy's clothing which you have heretofore referred to contain any indications at all of any bullet holes or any other type of holes?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Frazier, did you have occasion to examine the clothing which has heretofore been identified in prior Commission proceedings as that worn by Governor Connally on November 22, 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you what purports to be the Governor's coat, and may the record show that has been heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. 683?

(At this point the Chairman left the hearing room.)

Mr. DULLES [presiding]. The record may so show.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had opportunity heretofore to examine that coat?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. What did your examination reveal with respect to the back side of the coat?

Mr. FRAZIER. There was found on the coat by me when I first examined it, near the right sleeve 1-1/8 inches from the seam where the sleeve attaches to the coat, and 7-1/4 inches to the right of the midline when you view the back of the coat, a hole which is elongated in a horizontal direction to the length of approximately five-eights of an inch, and which had an approximate one-quarter inch height.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to determine from your examination of the Governor's clothing whether or not they had been cleaned and pressed prior to the time you saw them?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they had.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that different from or the same as the condition of the President's clothing which you have just described this morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. It is different in that the President's clothing had not been cleaned. It had only been dried. The blood was dried. However, the Governor's garments had been cleaned and pressed.

Mr. SPECTER. Had the President's clothing been pressed then?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you proceed to describe any other characteristics----

Mr. DULLES. Had been dried artificially or let nature take its course?

Mr. FRAZIER. It appeared to be air dried.

Mr. DULLES. Air dried, artificially?

Mr. FRAZIER. I couldn't say whether any outside heat had been applied but it did not appear that any heat had been applied to the blood.

Mr. SPECTER. Proceed.

Mr. FRAZIER. On the hole on the back of the coat although it had the general appearance and could have been a bullet hole, possibly because of the cleaning and pressing of the garment. I cannot state that it actually is a bullet hole nor the direction of the path of the bullet, if it were a bullet hole.

Mr. SPECTER. Is the nature of the opening consistent with being a bullet hole?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. And is it consistent with a bullet hole caused by a missile traveling from the back to the front of the wearer of the garment?

Mr. FRAZIER. I could not determine that.

Mr. SPECTER. You couldn't determine that it was, but could it have been?

Mr. FRAZIER. It could have been, yes; either way.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Will you now turn to the front side of the coat and state what, if any, damage you observed on the body of the garment?

Mr. FRAZIER. When considered from the wearer's standpoint, on the right chest area of the coat there is a hole through the lining and the outer layer of the coat which is located 6-1/2 inches from the right side seam line and also 6-1/2 inches from the armpit which places this hole approximately 5 inches to the right of the front right edge of the coat.

This hole was approximately circular in shape, three-eights of an inch in diameter, and again possibly because of the cleaning and pressing of the garment, I could not determine whether it actually was a bullet hole or whether or not it entered or exited if it were a bullet hole.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the hole consistent with being an exit bullet hole? That is to say, could it have been caused by an exiting bullet?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you find any damage on the right sleeve of the jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; on more or less the top portion of the right sleeve very near the end of the sleeve there is a very rough hole which penetrates both the outside layer, the lining and the inside layer of the sleeve.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe sufficient characteristics to formulate any conclusion as to the cause of that tear?

Mr. FRAZIER. This also did not indicate direction from the condition of the fibers, possibly due to the cleaning and pressing of the garment.

However, it could have been a bullet which struck the garment at an angle to the surface which caused a slight elongation. The hole was approximately five-eights of an inch in length, and three-eights of an inch in width. The elongation could also have been the result of a mutilated bullet having struck the garment or it could have been caused by a fold in the garment at the time the object or bullet struck.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to examine the shirt, which was purportedly worn by Governor Connally, and which has heretofore been identified by the Governor in Commission proceedings, as that worn by him on November 22, 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show at this point that Mr. Frazier is examining the shirt heretofore identified on the back side with a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 685 and on the front side with a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 686.

Now, referring to that shirt, Mr. Frazier, what, if anything, did you observe on the rear side by way of an imperfection, hole or defect?

Mr. FRAZIER. I found a hole which is very ragged. An L-shaped tear actually is what it amounted to in the back of the shirt near the right sleeve, 2 inches from the seam line where the sleeve attaches to the shirt, and 7-1/2 inches to the right of the midline of the shirt, the right side being as you look at the back of the shirt.

This tear amounted to a five-eights of an inch long horizontal and approximately one-half inch long vertical break in the cloth, with a very small tear located immediately to its right, as you look at the back of the shirt, which was approximately three-sixteenths of an inch in length.

This hole corresponds in position to the hole in the back of the coat, Governor Connally's coat, identified as Commission No. 683.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there sufficient characteristics observable to formulate a conclusion as to the cause and direction of that hole?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; there were no characteristics on which you could base a conclusion as to what caused it, whether or not it was a bullet and if it had been, what the direction of the projectile was.

Mr. SPECTER. Could it have been caused by a 6.5-mm. bullet coming from the rear of the wearer toward his front?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Referring now to the front side of the Governor's shirt, what, if anything, did you observe with respect to a tear or a hole thereon, as to the body of the shirt?

Mr. FRAZIER, I found in the right chest area of the shirt, considering the shirt when it is being worn, a very irregular tear more or less in the form of an "H," of the letter "H." This tear was approximately 1-1/2 inches in height, with the crossbar tear being approximately 1 inch in width, which caused a very irregularly shaped and enlarged hole in the front of the shirt. The hole is located 5 inches from the right-side seam, and 9 inches below the top of the right sleeve. The 9-inch figure is from the top of the right shoulder where the sleeve adjoins the yoke of the shirt.

Mr. SPECTER. Had that garment been cleaned and pressed, Mr. Frazier, prior to the time you examined it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there sufficient characteristics then remaining on the hole on the front side to enable you to formulate an opinion as to the cause of the hole?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Could it have been caused by a 6.5 millimeter bullet exiting from the chest of the Governor?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it could.

Mr. SPECTER. Now what, if anything----

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask there, would the size and character of this hole indicate the condition of the bullet, I mean as to whether it was tumbling or whether it was a mutilated bullet or anything of that kind?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it would not.

Mr. DULLES. Even a bullet in full flight, full velocity could have made this kind of a hole in the shirt?

Mr. FRAZIER. It could have, particularly if the shirt had been wrinkled at the time it passed through, and particularly because the material in this shirt tore rather severely at the time the object passed through, indicating a very weak structure of the cotton fiber, so that it would tear out of all proportion to a stronger fabric.

And for that reason, the shape of the hole could be affected by the condition of the material as well as any folds in the material or, as you say, by a mutilated bullet or a passage of a bullet through the cloth at an angle to the surface or the passing of a bullet partially sideways through the cloth.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. Will you proceed?

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Frazier, what, if any, defect or hole did you observe on the right sleeve of the Governor's shirt?

Mr. FRAZIER. I found in the cuff of the shirt which is a French cuff, through both the outer and inner layers of the cuff, a hole which is ragged in contour, irregularly shaped, and which had more or less star-shaped tears extending outward from the hole into the material, located 1-1/2 inches up from the end of the sleeve, and 5-1/2 inches from the outside cuff link hole, through both, as I said, through both layers of the cuff, and the hole was in such a condition, possibly due to the washing of the material, that I could not determine what actually caused it or if it had been caused by a bullet, the direction of the path of the bullet with reference to entrance and exit.

Mr. SPECTER. Could those holes have been caused by a bullet passing through the Governor's wrist from the dorsal or upper portion to the volar or palmar side?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they could.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to examine the trousers which have been heretofore identified in Commission hearings as those worn by Governor Connally on November 22, 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I did.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mr. Frazier has taken and is observing the trousers which have been identified in the record, through a picture of the front side, bearing Commission Exhibit No. 687 and a picture of the rear side bearing Commission Exhibit No. 688.

Now, referring to those trousers, what if anything did you observe in the nature of a defect or hole, Mr. Frazier?

Mr. FRAZIER. In the area which would be the left-knee area of the person wearing the trousers, there was a hole which is roughly circular in shape, and approximately one-quarter of an inch in diameter with some possible expansion of the hole due to slight tearing of the cloth at the outer margins of the hole.

Mr. SPECTER. Had the trousers been cleaned and pressed prior to your examination?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there sufficient characteristics available for you to formulate any conclusion as to the cause of that hole?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I can say that it had the general appearance of a bullet hole but I could not determine the direction of the bullet if, in fact, it had been caused by a bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. What are the characteristics which led you to believe that it had the characteristics of a bullet hole?

Mr. FRAZIER. It has the roughly circular shape with slight tearing away from the edges of the material.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other hole on the trousers which could be a hole of exit?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Frazier, did you have occasion to examine an automobile which was the vehicle used customarily by the President of the United States in parades?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. When did that examination occur?

Mr. FRAZIER. In the early morning hours of November 23, 1963, at the Secret Service garage here in Washington, D.C.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph previously identified for the record as Commission Exhibit No. 344 and ask you if that depicts the car which you examined?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. I hand you a subsequent exhibit of the Commission, No. 346, showing the interior view of the automobile and ask you if that depicts the automobile which you examined?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; however, it wasn't in this condition. It wasn't as clean as it is in Exhibit 346.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition with respect to cleanliness?

Mr. FRAZIER. There were blood and particles of flesh scattered all over the hood, the windshield, in the front seat and all over the rear floor rugs, the jump seats, and over the rear seat, and down both sides of the side rails or tops of the doors of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that condition depicted by Commission Exhibits 352 and 353 to the extent that they show the interior of the automobile?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of the examination which you made of the car at that time and place?

Mr. FRAZIER. I examined the car to determine whether or not there were any bullet fragments present in it, embedded in the upholstery of the back of the front seat, or whether there were any impact areas which indicated that bullets or bullet fragments struck the inside of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the fragments first, what did your examination disclose?

Mr. FRAZIER. We found three small lead particles lying on the rug in the rear seat area. These particles were located underneath or in the area which would be underneath the left jump seat.

Mr. SPECTER. Have those particles been identified during the course of your prior testimony?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they have not?

Mr. SPECTER. Will you produce them at this time then, please? May we assign to this group of particles Commission Exhibit No. 840?

Mr. DULLES. These have not been discussed before, have they?

Mr. SPECTER. They have not.

Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted as Commission Exhibit No. 840.

(Commission Exhibit No. 840 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. I move formally for their admission, then, into evidence at this time.

Mr. DULLES. They shall be admitted.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the three pieces of metal which are contained within this vial, please?

Mr. FRAZIER. The three pieces of metal are lead. They were weighed immediately upon recovery and were found to weigh nine-tenths of a grain, seven-tenths of a grain, and seven-tenths of a grain, respectively. Since that time small portions have been removed for spectrographic analysis and comparison with other bullets and bullet fragments.

Mr. SPECTER. Has that comparison been made with a whole bullet heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit 399 which in other proceedings has been identified as the bullet from the Connally stretcher?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; the comparison was made by comparing Exhibit 399 with a bullet fragment found in the front seat of the Presidential limousine and then comparing that fragment with these fragments from the rear seat of the automobile.

Mr. SPECTER. For identification purposes, has that fragment from the front seat been heretofore identified during your prior testimony?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it has. It bears Commission No. 567.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what did the comparative examination then disclose as among Commission Exhibits 399, 567, and 840?

Mr. FRAZIER. That examination was performed by a spectrographer, John F. Gallagher, and I do not have the results of his examinations here, although I did ascertain that it was determined that the lead fragments were similar in composition.

Mr. SPECTER. So that they could have come from, so that the fragments designated 840 could have come from the same bullet as fragment designated 567?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Were the tests sufficient to indicate conclusively whether fragments 840 did come from the fragment designated as 567?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you personally find any other fragments in the President's car during the course of your examination?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, where, according to information provided to you then, was the fragment designated Commission Exhibit 567 found?

Mr. FRAZIER. That was found by the Secret Service upon their examination of the limousine here in Washington when it first arrived from Dallas, and Commission No. 567 was delivered by Deputy Chief Paul Paterni and by a White House detail chief, Floyd M. Boring, to a liaison agent of the FBI, Orrin Bartlett, who delivered them to me in the laboratory at 11:50 p.m., on November 22, 1963.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that constitute the total chain of possession then from the finder with the Secret Service into your hands, as reflected on the records of the FBI?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there another fragment, was there any other fragment found in the front seat of the car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. Alongside the right side of the front seat, Commission Exhibit No. 569, which is the base portion of the jacket of a bullet, was found, and handled in identical manner to the Exhibit 567.

Mr. DULLES. And the front seat is the seat which would be the driver's seat?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. And the Secret Service man on his right, I believe?

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman.

Mr. DULLES. That was the seat from which this came?

Mr. FRAZIER. Commission Exhibit 567 was found on the seat right beside the driver, and Exhibit 569 was found on the floor beside the right side of the front seat.

Mr. SPECTER. The right side of the front seat, Mr. Dulles, as the prior testimony shows was occupied by Roy Kellerman and the driver was William Greer.

Mr. DULLES. Right. Thank you.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state what the chain of possession was from the time of discovery of Exhibit 569 until the time it came into your possession, based on the records of the FBI, please, if you have those records available?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. It was delivered by Secret Service Deputy Chief Paul Paterni, and SAC of the White House detail Floyd M. Boring of the Secret Service again, to Special Agent Orrin Bartlett of the FBI who delivered it to me at 11:50 p.m. on November 22, 1963.

Mr. SPECTER. Are the records which you have just referred to relating to the chain of possession of Exhibits 567 and 569 maintained by you in the normal course of your duties as an examiner of those items?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.