Chapter VII: Front Matter (7)

Mr. SPECTER. Would you compare the damage, which was done to Governor Connally's wrist, as contrasted with the damage to the wrist depicted in 854 and 855?

Dr. OLIVIER. The damage in the wrist that you see in the X-ray on 854 and 855, the damage is greater than was done to the Governor's wrist. There is more severe comminution here.

Mr. SPECTER. How much more severe is the comminution?

Dr. OLIVIER. Considerably more. If I remember correctly in the X-rays of the Governor's wrist, I think there were only two or three fragments, if that many. Here we have many, many small fragments.

Mr. SPECTER. In your opinion, based on the tests which you have performed, was the damage inflicted on Governor Connally's wrist caused by a pristine bullet, a bullet fired from the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle 6.5 missile which did not hit anything before it struck the Governor's wrist?

Dr. OLIVIER. I don't believe so. I don't believe his wrist was struck by a pristine bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the reason for your conclusion on that?

Dr. OLIVIER. In this case I go by the size of the entrance wound and exit wound on the Governor's wrist. The entrance wound was on the dorsal surface, it was described by the surgeon as being much larger than the exit wound. He said he almost overlooked that on the volar aspect of the wrist.

In every instance we had a larger exit wound than an entrance wound firing with a pristine bullet apparently at the same angle at which it entered and exited the Governor's wrist.

Also, and I don't believe they were mixed up on which was entrance and exit. For one thing the clothing, you know, the surgeon found pieces of clothing and the other thing the human anatomy is such that I don't believe it would enter through the volar aspect and out the top.

So I am pretty sure that the Governor's wrist was not hit by a pristine or a stable bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. What is there, in and of the nature of the smaller wound of exit and larger wound of entrance in the Governor's wrist as contrasted with a smaller wound of entrance and larger wound of exit in 854 and 855, which leads you to conclude that the Governor's wrist was not struck by a pristine bullet?

Dr. OLIVIER. Do you want to repeat that question again?

Mr. SPECTER. What is there about the wound of entry or exit which led you to think that the Governor's wrist wasn't struck by a pristine bullet?

Dr. OLIVIER. Well, he would have had a larger exit wound than entrance wound, which he did not.

Mr. SPECTER. And if the velocity of the missile is decreased, how does that effect the nature of the wounds of entry and exit?

Dr. OLIVIER. If the velocity is decreased, if the bullet is still stable, he still should have a larger exit wound than an entrance.

Now, on the other hand, to get a larger entrance wound and a smaller exit wound, this indicates the bullet probably hit with very much of a yaw. I mean, as this hole appeared in the velocity screen the bullet either tumbling or striking sideways, this would have made a larger entrance wound, lose considerable of its velocity in fracturing the bone, and coming out at a very low velocity, made a smaller hole.

Mr. SPECTER. So the crucial factor would be the analysis that the bullet was characterized with yaw at the time it struck?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Causing a larger wound of entry and a smaller wound of exit?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now is there anything in the----

Dr. OLIVIER. Also at a reduced velocity because if it struck at considerable yaw at a high velocity as it could do if it hit something and deflected, it would have, it could make a larger wound of exit but it would have been even a more severe wound than we had here. It would have been very severe, could even amputate the wrist hitting at high velocity sideways. We have to say this bullet was characterized by an extreme amount of yaw and reduced velocity. How much reduced, I don't know, but considerably reduced.

Mr. SPECTER. Does the greater damage, inflicted on the wrist in 854 and 855 than that which was inflicted on Governor Connally's wrist, have any value as indicating whether Governor Connally's wrist was struck by a pristine bullet?

Dr. OLIVIER. No; because holding the velocity the same or similar the damage would be greater with a tumbling bullet than a pristine.

I think it reflects both instability and reduced velocity. You have to show the two. I mean, the size of the entrance and exit are very important. This shows that the thing was used when it struck. The fact that there was no more damage than was done by a tumbling bullet indicates the bullet at a reduced velocity. You have to put these two things together.

Mr. SPECTER. Had Governor Connally's wrist been struck with a pristine bullet without yaw, would more damage have been inflicted----

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Than was inflicted on the Governor's wrist?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. So then the lesser damage on the Governor's wrist in and of itself indicates in your opinion----

Dr. OLIVIER. That it wasn't struck by a pristine bullet; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other conclusions which flow from the experiments which you conducted on the wrist?

Dr. OLIVIER. We concluded that it wasn't struck by a pristine bullet. Also drew the conclusion that it was struck by an unstable bullet, a bullet at a much reduced velocity. The question that it brings up in my mind is if the same bullet that struck the wrist had passed through the Governor's chest, if the bullet that struck the Governor's chest had not hit anything else would it have been reduced low enough to do this, and I wonder, based on our work--it brings to mind the possibility the same bullet that struck the President striking the Governor would account for this more readily. I don't know, I don't think you can ever say this, but it is a very good possibility, I think more possible, more probable than not.

The CHAIRMAN. What is more probable than not, Doctor?

Dr. OLIVIER. In my mind at least, and I don't know the angles at which the things went or anything, it seems to me more probable that the bullet that hit the Governor's chest had already been slowed down somewhat, in order to lose enough velocity to strike his wrist and do no more damage than it did. I don't know how you would ever determine it exactly. I think the best approach is to find out the angles of flight, whether it is possible. But I have a feeling that it might have been.

The CHAIRMAN. It might have been?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. The one that went through his chest went through his hand also.

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; and also through the President.

The CHAIRMAN. The first shot?

Dr. OLIVIER. Well, I don't know whether the first or second. The first one could have missed. It could have been the second that hit both.

The CHAIRMAN. The one that went through his back and came out his trachea?

Dr. OLIVIER. It could have hit the Governor in the chest and went through because it had so little velocity after coming out of the wrist that it barely penetrated the thigh.

The CHAIRMAN. May I ask one more question? Would you think, that the same bullet could have done all three of those things?

Dr. OLIVIER. That same bullet was capable.

The CHAIRMAN. Gone through the President's back as it did, gone through Governor Connally's chest as it did, and then through his hand as it did?

Dr. OLIVIER. It was certainly capable of doing all that.

The CHAIRMAN. It was capable?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. The one shot?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Doctor Olivier, based on the descriptions of the wound on the Governor's back, what in your opinion was the characteristic of the bullet at the time it struck the Governor's back with respect to the course of its flight?

Dr. OLIVIER. Let's say from the size of the wound as described by the surgeon, it could have been tipped somewhat when it struck because that is a fairly large wound. Another thing that could have done it is the angle at which it hit. On the goat some of the wounds were larger than others. On the goat material some of the wounds were larger than others because of the angle at which it hit this material. The same thing could happen on the Governor's back.

Mr. SPECTER. And how was that wound described with respect to its size?

Dr. OLIVIER. The Governor's wound?

Mr. SPECTER. On the Governor's back?

Dr. OLIVIER. About 3 centimeters at its largest dimension.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you have any view as to which factor was more probable, as to whether it was a tangential strike on the Governor's back, or whether there was yaw in the bullet at the time it struck the Governor's back?

Dr. OLIVIER. I couldn't as far as being tangential. I couldn't answer that, not knowing the position of the Governor. But it could have been caused by a bullet yawing. I mean it would have made a larger wound, as that was.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other cause which could account for that type of a large wound on the Governor's back other than with the bullet yawing?

Dr. OLIVIER. With this particular bullet those would be the two probable causes of this wound of this size.

Mr. SPECTER. And those two probable causes are what?

Dr. OLIVIER. One, the bullet hitting not perpendicular to the surface of the Governor, in other words, hitting tangential at a slight angle on his back so that it came in cutting the skin. Another, the bullet hitting that wasn't perpendicular to the surface as it hit. The bullet did go along, the surgeon described the path as tangential but he is speaking of along the rib. It isn't clear it was, as it struck, whether it was a tangential shot or actually perpendicular to the Governor's back.

Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to add one additional factor which Dr. Shaw testified to during the course of the proceeding after he measured the angle of decline through the Governor; and Dr. Shaw testified that there was a 25° to 27° angle of declination measuring from front to back on the Governor, taking into account the position of the wound on the Governor's back and the position of the wound on the Governor's chest below the right nipple.

Now with that factor, added to those which you already know, would that enable you to form a conclusion as to whether the nature of the wound on the Governor's back was caused by yaw of the bullet or by a tangential strike?

Dr. OLIVIER. I don't think I would want to say. If I could have seen the Governor's wound, this would have been a help.

Mr. SPECTER. Would the damage done to the Governor's wrist indicate that a bullet which was fired approximately 160 to 250 feet away with the muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, would it indicate that the bullet was slowed up only by the passage through the Governor's body, in the way which you know, or would it indicate that there was some other factor which slowed up the bullet in addition?

Dr. OLIVIER. It would indicate there was some other factor that had slowed up the bullet in addition.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your reason for that conclusion, sir?

Dr. OLIVIER. The amount of damage alone; striking that end it would have caused more severe comminution as we found. You know--if it hadn't been slowed up in some other fashion. At that range it still had a striking velocity of 1,858 or in the vicinity of 1,800 feet per second, which is capable of doing more damage than was done to the Governor's wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Had the same bullet which passed through the President, in the way heretofore described for the record, then struck the Governor as well, what effect would there have been in reducing its velocity as a result of that course?

Dr. OLIVIER. You say the bullet first struck the President. In coming out of the President's body it would have had a tendency to be slightly unstable. In striking the Governor it would have lost more velocity in his chest than if it had been a pristine bullet striking the Governor's chest, so it would have exited from the Governor's chest I would say at a considerably reduced velocity, probably with a good amount of yaw or tumbling, and this would account for the type of wound that the Governor did have in his wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. The approximate reduction in velocity on passage through the goat was what, Doctor?

Dr. OLIVIER. The average velocity loss in the seven cases we did was 82 feet per second.

Mr. SPECTER. If the bullet had passed through the President prior to the time it passed through the Governor, would you expect a larger loss than 82 feet per second resulting from the passage through the body of the Governor?

Dr. OLIVIER. I am not sure if I heard you correctly. This is if it hit the Governor without hitting the President or hitting the President first?

Mr. SPECTER. Let me rephrase it for you, Dr. Olivier.

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; please.

Mr. SPECTER. You testified that the bullet lost 82 feet per second when it passed through the goat.

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now what would your expectations be as to the reduction in velocity on a bullet which passed through the Governor, assuming that it struck nothing first?

Dr. OLIVIER. It would be greater; the distance through the Governor's chest would have been greater.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that be an appreciable or approximately the same?

Dr. OLIVIER. Can I bring in any other figures? Dr. Dziemian has computed approximately what he thought it would have lost.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, of course, if you have any other figure which would be helpful.

Dr. DZIEMIAN. I believe you misunderstood Mr. Specter. I think you gave the figure for the loss of velocity through the Governor's wrist instead of through his chest.

Dr. OLIVIER. I am sorry. We were on the wrist; okay.

Mr. SPECTER. Let me start again then. In an effort to draw some conclusion about the reduction in velocity through the Governor's chest, I am now going back and asking you what was the reduction in velocity of the bullet which passed through the goat?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I did misunderstand you. I am sorry. The loss in velocity passing through the goat was 265 feet per second.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would that be the approximate loss in velocity of a pristine bullet passing through the Governor?

Dr. OLIVIER. The loss would be somewhat greater.

Mr. SPECTER. How much greater in your opinion?

Dr. OLIVIER. Do you have that figure, Dr. Dziemian?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. I would say a pristine bullet of the Governor was about half again thicker. It would be about half again as great velocity, somewhere around 400.

Mr. SPECTER. Had the bullet passed through only the Governor, losing velocity of 400 feet per second, would you have expected that the damage inflicted on the Governor's wrist would have been about the same as that inflicted on Governor Connally or greater?

Dr. OLIVIER. My feeling is it would have been greater.

Mr. SPECTER. Had the bullet passed through the President and then struck Governor Connally, would it have lost velocity of 400 feet per second in passing through Governor Connally or more?

Dr. OLIVIER. It would have lost more.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the reason for that?

Dr. OLIVIER. The bullet after passing through, say a dense medium, then through air and then through another dense medium tends to be more unstable, based on our past work. It appears to be that it would have tumbled more readily and lost energy more rapidly. How much velocity it would have lost, I couldn't say, but it would have lost more.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any indications from the internal wounds on Governor Connally as to whether or not the bullet which entered his body was an unstable bullet?

Dr. OLIVIER. The only thing that might give you an indication would be the skin wound of entrance, the type of rib fracture and all that I think could be accounted for by either type, because in our experiment we simulated, although not to as great a degree, the damage wasn't as severe, but I think it would be hard to say that.

One thing comes to my mind right now that might indicate it. There was a greater flattening of the bullet in our experiments than there was going through the Governor, which might indicate that it struck the rib which did the flattening at a lower velocity. This is only a thought.

Mr. SPECTER. It struck the rib of the Governor?

Dr. OLIVIER. It struck the rib of the Governor at a lower velocity because that bullet was less flattened than the bullet through the goat material.

Mr. SPECTER. Based on the nature of the wound inflicted on the Governor's wrist, and on the tests which you have conducted then, do you have an opinion as to which is more probable on whether the bullet passed through only the Governor's chest before striking his wrist, or passed through the President first and then the Governor's chest before striking the Governor's wrist?

Dr. OLIVIER. Will you say that again to make sure I have it?

Mr. SPECTER. [To the reporter.] Could you repeat that question, please?

(The question was read by the reporter.)

Dr. OLIVIER. You couldn't say exactly at all. My feeling is that it would be more probable that it passed through the President first. At least I think it is important to establish line of flight to try to determine it.

Mr. SPECTER. Aside from the lines of flight, based on the factors which were known to you from the medical point of view and from the tests which you conducted, what would be the reason for the feeling which you just expressed?

Dr. OLIVIER. Because I believe you would need that, I mean to account for the damage to the wrist. I don't think you would have gotten a low enough velocity upon reaching the wrist unless you had gone through the President's body first.

Mr. SPECTER. The President's body as well as the Governor's body?

Dr. OLIVIER. As well as the Governor's.

Mr. SPECTER. Does the nature of the wound which was inflicted on Governor Connally's thigh shed any light on this subject?

Dr. OLIVIER. This, to my mind, at least, merely indicates the bullet at this time was about spent. In talking with doctor, I believe it was Gregory, I don't think he did the operation on the thigh but at least he saw the wound, and he said it was about the size of an eraser on a lead pencil. This could be accounted for--and there was also this small fragment of bullet in this thigh wound--this, to me, indicates that this was a spent bullet that had gone through the wrist as the Governor was sitting there, went through the wrist into his thigh, just partly imbedded and then fell out and I believe this was the bullet that was found on the stretcher.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you have any opinion as to the velocity of that bullet at the time it struck the Governor's thigh?

Dr. OLIVIER. No. We didn't do any work to simulate this, but it would have been at a very low velocity just to have gone in that far and drop out again.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Olivier, in the regular course of your work for the U.S. Army, do you have occasion to perform tests on reconstructed human skulls to determine the effects of bullets on skulls?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I do.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you have occasion to conduct such a test in connection with the series which you are now describing?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline briefly the procedures for simulating the human skull?

Dr. OLIVIER. Human skulls, we take these human skulls and they are imbedded and filled with 20 percent gelatin. As I mentioned before, 20 percent gelatin is a pretty good simulant for body tissues.

They are in the moisture content. When I say 20 percent, it is 20 percent weight of the dry gelatin, 80 percent moisture.

The skull, the cranial cavity, is filled with this and the surface is coated with a gelatin and then it is trimmed down to approximate the thickness of the tissues overlying the skull, the soft tissues of the head.

Mr. SPECTER. And at what distance were these tests performed?

Dr. OLIVIER. These tests were performed at a distance of 90 yards.

Mr. SPECTER. And what gun was used?

Dr. OLIVIER. It was a 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano that was marked Commission Exhibit 139.

Mr. SPECTER. What bullets were used?

Dr. OLIVIER. It was the 6.5 millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano Western ammunition lot 6,000.

Mr. SPECTER. What did that examination or test, rather, disclose?

Dr. OLIVIER. It disclosed that the type of head wounds that the President received could be done by this type of bullet. This surprised me very much, because this type of a stable bullet I didn't think would cause a massive head wound, I thought it would go through making a small entrance and exit, but the bones of the skull are enough to deform the end of this bullet causing it to expend a lot of energy and blowing out the side of the skull or blowing out fragments of the skull.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a case containing bullet fragments marked Commission Exhibit 857 and ask if you have ever seen those fragments before.

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And under what circumstances have you viewed those before, please?

Dr. OLIVIER. There were, the two larger fragments were recovered outside of the skull in the cotton waste we were using to catch the fragments without deforming them. There are some smaller fragments in here that were obtained from the gelatin within the cranial cavity after the experiment. We melted the gelatin out and recovered the smallest fragments from within the cranial cavity.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, I show you two fragments designated as Commission Exhibits 567 and 579 heretofore identified as having been found on the front seat of the President's car on November 22, 1963, and ask you if you have had an opportunity to examine those before.

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you had an opportunity to compare those to the two fragments identified as Commission Exhibit 857?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did that comparison show?

Dr. OLIVIER. They are quite similar. These two fragments on, what is the number?

Mr. SPECTER. 857.

Dr. OLIVIER. On 857 there isn't as much of the front part in this one, but in other respects they are very similar.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 858 and ask you what that depicts.

Mr. DULLES. Could I see that other exhibit?

Dr. OLIVIER. These are the same fragments as marked 857.

Mr. SPECTER. That is a photograph of the fragments marked 857?

Dr. OLIVIER. 857.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 859 and ask you what that depicts?

Dr. OLIVIER. These are the smaller fragments that have been labeled, also, Exhibit 857. This picture or some of the fragments labeled 857, these are the smaller fragments contained in the same box.

Mr. SPECTER. Are all of the fragments on 859 contained within 857?

Dr. OLIVIER. They are supposed to be, photographed and placed in the box. If they dropped out they are supposed to be all there.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.

Mr. SPECTER. At what point on the skull did the bullet, which fragmented into Commission Exhibit 857, strike?

Dr. OLIVIER. I would have to see the picture. I mean I can't remember exactly what point. I can tell you the point we were aiming at and approximately where it hit.

Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to make available a photograph to you, then, for purposes of refreshing your recollection, and in testifying as to the point which was struck, for that purpose.

Dr. OLIVIER. We did 10 skulls so I can't remember offhand where everyone struck.

Mr. SPECTER. For that purpose I hand you Commission Exhibit 860 and ask you if that is designated in any way to identify it.

Mr. DULLES. This is the test we are talking about now, is it?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; where the bullet fragmented into pieces in 857.

Mr. DULLES. Are you introducing that into evidence?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Have you already introduced it in the record?

Mr. SPECTER. May I at this point move for the admission into evidence of Commission Exhibits 844 through 860, and they have been identified in sequence as being the photographs, X-rays, and other tangible exhibits used in connection with these tests.

Mr. DULLES. They shall be admitted.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 844 through 860 were received in evidence.)

Dr. OLIVIER. This photograph is the skull that was shot with the bullet, the fragments which are marked 857.

Mr. SPECTER. At what point on the skull did the bullet strike?

Dr. OLIVIER. From this I couldn't tell you exactly the point. We were aiming, as described in the autopsy report if I remember correctly the point 2 centimeters to the right of the external occipital protuberance and slightly above it. We placed a mark on the skull at that point, according to the autopsy the bullet emerged through the superorbital process, so we drew a line to give us the line of flight, put unclipped goat hair over the back to simulate the scalp and put a mark on the area which we wished to shoot.

Now, every shot didn't strike exactly where we wanted, but they all struck in the back of the skull in the vicinity of our aiming point, some maybe slightly above the external occipital protuberance. In some cases very close to our aiming spot.

This particular skull blew out the right side in a manner very similar to the wounds of the President, and if I remember correctly, it was very close to the point at which we aimed.

In other words, a couple centimeters to the right.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any record which would be more specific on the point of entrance?

Dr. OLIVIER. Our notebook has all----

Mr. SPECTER. Will you refer to your notes, then?

Dr. OLIVIER. The notebook is in the safe in there in the briefcase.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you get the notebook and refer to it so we can be as specific as possible on this point.

Dr. OLIVIER. I have the location of that wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you give us then the precise location of the wound caused by bullet identified as 857?

Dr. OLIVIER. The entrance wound is 2.9 centimeters to the right and almost horizontal to the occipital protuberance. This is almost exactly where we were aiming. We were aiming 2 centimeters to the right.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked as Commission Exhibit 861, move its admission into evidence, and ask you to state what that depicts.

Dr. OLIVIER. This is the skull in question, the same one from which the fragments marked Exhibit 857 were recovered.

Mr. SPECTER. And what does that show as to damage done to the skull?

Dr. OLIVIER. It blew the whole side of the cranial cavity away.

Mr. SPECTER. How does that compare, then, with the damage inflicted on President Kennedy?

Dr. OLIVIER. Very similar. I think they stated the length of the defect, the missing skull was 13 centimeters if I remember correctly. This in this case it is greater, but you don't have the limiting scalp holding the pieces in so you would expect it to fly a little more but it is essentially a similar type wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Does the human scalp work to hold in the human skull in such circumstances to a greater extent than the simulated matters used?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; we take this into account.

Mr. SPECTER. I hand you Commission Exhibit 862, move its admission into evidence, and ask you what that depicts?

Dr. OLIVIER. This is the same skull. This is just looking at it from the front. You are looking at the exit. You can't see it here because the bone has been blown away, but the bullet exited somewhere around--we reconstructed the skull. In other words, it exited very close to the superorbital ridge, possibly below it.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you formulate any other conclusions or opinions based on the tests on firing at the skull?

Dr. OLIVIER. Well, let's see. We found that this bullet could do exactly--could make the type of wound that the President received.

Also, that the recovered fragments were very similar to the ones recovered on the front seat and on the floor of the car.

This, to me, indicates that those fragments did come from the bullet that wounded the President in the head.

Mr. SPECTER. And how do the two major fragments in 857 compare, then, with the fragments heretofore identified as 567 and 569?

Dr. OLIVIER. They are quite similar.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an opinion as to whether the wound on the Governor's wrist could have been caused by a fragment of a bullet coming off of the President's head?

Dr. OLIVIER. I don't believe so. Frankly, I don't know, but I don't believe so, because it expended so much energy in blowing the head apart and took a lot of energy that I doubt if they could have fractured the radius. The radius is a very strong, hard bone and I don't believe they could have done that much damage. I believe they could have caused a superficial laceration on someone or a mark on the windshield, but I don't believe they could have done that damage to the wrist.

Mr. DULLES. And it couldn't have then gone through the wrist into the thigh?

Dr. OLIVIER. I don't believe so.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had an opportunity to examine a fragment identified as Commission Exhibit 842 which is the fragment taken from Governor Connally's wrist?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Could that fragment have come from the bullet designated as Commission Exhibit 399?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I believe it would have, I will add further I believe it could have because the core of the bullet extrudes through the back and would allow part of it to break off very readily.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an opinion as to whether, in fact, bullet 399 did cause the wound on the Governor's wrist, assuming if you will that it was the missile found on the Governor's stretcher at Parkland Hospital?

Dr. OLIVIER. I believe that it was. That is my feeling.

Mr. SPECTER. To be certain that the record is complete on the skull tests, would you again state the distance at which those tests were performed?

Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, the skulls--it was fired at the skulls at a range of 90 yards.

Mr. SPECTER. With what gun?

Dr. OLIVIER. The 6.5 mm. Carcano which was marked Commission Exhibit 139 and using Western ammunition lot 6,000, again the 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano.

Mr. SPECTER. Going to the results of the test on the cadavers, what was the average exit velocity?

Dr. OLIVIER. The average exit velocity on the wrist was 1,776 feet per second.

Mr. SPECTER. Had Governor Connally's wrist been struck with a pristine bullet and the bullet exited at that speed, what damage would have been inflicted had it then struck the area of the thigh which was struck on the Governor according to the Parkland Hospital records which you have said you have examined?

Dr. OLIVIER. It would have made a very severe wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Would it have been more severe than the one which was inflicted?

Dr. OLIVIER. Much more so.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Dr. Olivier, which you think would be helpful to the Commission in any way?

Dr. OLIVIER. No; I don't believe so.

Mr. DULLES. I have no further questions.

Mr. SPECTER. That completes my questions, Mr. Dulles.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much. We appreciate very much your coming.

(Discussion off the record.)

TESTIMONY OF DR. ARTHUR J. DZIEMIAN

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Dziemian.

Mr. DULLES. Doctor, will you raise your right hand, please? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give in this proceeding is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Dziemian, as you know, the purpose of the proceeding is to question you concerning the experiments which were performed at Edgewood Arsenal which may shed light on the assassination of President Kennedy. With that brief statement of purpose, will you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Arthur J. Dziemian.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession or occupation, sir?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. I am a physiologist at the U.S. Army Chemical Research and Development Laboratories, and am chief of the Biophysics Division.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline your educational background briefly, please?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Yes; A.B. and Ph. D. from Princeton, Ph. D. in 1939. I was national research fellow at the University of Pennsylvania in the physiology department of the medical school and fellow in anatomy at Johns Hopkins University Medical School.

Mr. SPECTER. In a general way, what have your professional activities been since 1939?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Since 1939?

Well, these fellowships that I had. Then I went to Edgewood Arsenal, was there for a few months and then went into the Army, was in the Army for 3 years, in the sanitary corps, officer in the sanitary corps, and then I returned to Edgewood Arsenal in 1947 and in 1947 I went into wound ballistics work and have been in it since 1947.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been chief of the Biophysics Division?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Since November of 1959.

Mr. DULLES. Where is this Biophysics Division?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. U.S. Army Chemical Research and Development Laboratories, Edgewood Arsenal, Md.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe in a general way the tests which are performed at the Edgewood Arsenal, please?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Yes; well, our mission, the division's mission is to study the antipersonnel effects of munitions, including kinetic energy munitions, incendiary, and some chemical munitions.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it the regular function of your unit then to test the effects of bullet wounds on various parts of the human body?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. And does Dr. Olivier function under your direction in his capacity as chief of the Wounds Ballistics Branch?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Yes; his branch is one of the branches of the Biophysics Division.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been present today to hear the full testimony of Dr. Olivier?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Were the tests which he described, performed under your general supervision and direction as his superior?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Yes; they were.

Mr. SPECTER. As to the underlying facts which those tests disclosed, do you have any details to add as to results which you think would be helpful or significant for the Commission to know?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Well, I think that Dr. Olivier described them pretty well on the whole, got all the details in.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you agree with the recitation of the detailed findings, then, as described by Dr. Olivier?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. I do, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Then moving to the general topic of reconstructing the events in terms of what professional opinion you may have as to what actually occurred at Dallas, permit me to ask you some questions in terms of the known medical facts, and in the light of the results of this series of tests which you have performed. First of all, have you had access to the autopsy report on President Kennedy?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Yes, I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you had access to the same general information described by Dr. Olivier on the wounds inflicted on Governor Connally?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Yes, I have. I did not speak to the surgeons. I was not here at that time. My information on Dr. Connally's wounds----

Mr. DULLES. Governor Connally.

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Governor Connally, are from the reports and from discussions with Dr. Light or Dr. Olivier.

Mr. SPECTER. So that all of the information available to Dr. Light and Dr. Olivier obtained through consultations with Governor Connally's doctors, Dr. Shaw and Dr. Gregory, have been passed on to you? In addition, you have had access to the records of Parkland Hospital on Governor Connally's treatment there?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you had an opportunity to observe certain films known as the Zapruder films showing the assassination?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. No; I did not see those.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had, then, brought to your attention the approximate distances involved from the situation here, to wit; that the shots were fired from a 6th floor window at a distance of approximately 160 to 250 feet at a moving vehicle, striking the Governor and the President at angles estimated from 25 to 45 degrees, the angle of impact on President Kennedy being given by the autopsy surgeon as a 45-degree angle of declination, and the angle on Governor Connally being described as 25 to 27 degrees?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Yes, I did----

Mr. DULLES. You are speaking now of the first two wounds, aren't you?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. You are not speaking now of the brain wound at all, are you?

Mr. SPECTER. Correct, Mr. Dulles. The wound that I am referring to on the President is the wound which entered the back of his neck and exited from the front part of his neck in accordance with the prior testimony of the doctors in the case.

Now, based on the tests which have been performed, and the other factors which I will ask you to assume, since you weren't present; for purposes of expressing an opinion, what is your opinion as to whether all of the wounds on Governor Connally were inflicted by one bullet?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. My opinion is that it is most probably so, that one bullet produced all the wounds on Governor Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your opinion as to whether the wound through President Kennedy's neck and all of the wounds on Governor Connally were produced by one bullet?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. I think the probability is very good that it is, that all the wounds were caused by one bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say all the wounds, are you excluding from that the head wound on President Kennedy?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. I am excluding the head wound, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is the reasoning behind your conclusion that one bullet caused the neck wound on President Kennedy and all of the other wounds on Governor Connally?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. I am saying that the probability is high that that was so.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the reason for your assessment of that high probability?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. The same reasons that Dr. Olivier gave, based on the same information, that especially the wound to the wrist. That higher velocity strike on the wrist would be caused by the bullet slowing down by going through all this tissue would cause more damage to the wrist and also more damage to the thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. Had the bullet only gone through Governor Connally's chest then, what is your opinion as to whether or not there would have been greater damage to the Governor's wrist?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. I think there would have been greater damage to the Governor's wrist, and also to the thigh from the information, from the experiments obtained by Dr. Olivier's group.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question here? Does that take into account any evidence as to the angle of fire and the relative positions of the two men, or excluding that?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Excluding that. I do not know enough details about that to make an opinion on that. This is just on the basis of the velocities of the bullets.

Mr. SPECTER. Would the nature of the wounds on the Governor's wrist and thigh, then, be explained by the hypothesis that the bullet passed through the President first, then went through the Governor's chest before striking the wrist and in turn the thigh?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. I think that could be a good explanation.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your opinion as to whether or not a fragment of a bullet striking the President's head could have caused the wound to Governor Connally's wrist?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. I think it is unlikely.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your opinion as to whether or not Governor Connally's wrist wound could have been caused by a pristine bullet?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. That is unlikely, too. Our results with pristine bullets were very different from the wound that the Governor had.

Mr. SPECTER. Based on the description provided to you of the nature of the wound in the Governor's back, what is your opinion as to whether, or not, that was a pristine bullet or had yaw in it, just on the basis of the nature of the wound on the Governor's back?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. It could very well have yaw in it because of the rather large wound that was produced in the Governor's back. The wound from a nonyawing bullet could be considerably smaller.

Mr. SPECTER. For the record, would you define in lay terms what yaw means?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. It is the procession of the bullet. The bullet is wobbling on its axis, so that as it wobbles, it presents different presented areas to the target or to the air, and this changes the drag coefficient of the bullet. It will slow down the bullet more both in the air and in tissues, in the yawing.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the course of a bullet, then, which is a pristine bullet or the nature of the bullet immediately after coming out of the muzzle of a rifle before it strikes anything?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. A pristine bullet is normally stable. It does not wobble in the air. It presents the same presented area along most of its trajectory until it slows down, so that the drag coefficient in air or in the tissue of this type of bullet is less than the drag coefficient----

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by drag coefficient?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. It is a measurement of the resistance of the target material or the air to the bullet. The greater the drag coefficient, the more the resistance to the bullet, the more the bullet slows down within a given time.

Mr. SPECTER. So would a bullet with yaw cause a greater or lesser hole on the surface which it strikes than a bullet without yaw?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. It would normally cause a greater hole. It usually would have more presented area, that is more the surface of the bullet would hit the skin.

Mr. SPECTER. And would a bullet with yaw decrease in velocity to a greater, lesser, or the same extent as a bullet without yaw?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. It would decrease in velocity to a greater extent.

Mr. SPECTER. Whether it passed through air or----

Dr. DZIEMIAN. Or through tissue, and the important thing in tissue is that it transfers more energy to the target than would a nonyawing bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Dziemian, Governor Connally testified that he experienced the sensation of a striking blow on his back which he described as being similar to a hard punch received from a doubled-up fist. Do you have an opinion as to whether that sensation would necessarily occur immediately upon impact of a wound such as that received by Governor Connally, or could there be a delayed reaction in sensing that feeling?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. I don't have too much of an opinion on that. All I can say is that some people are struck by bullets and do not even know they are hit. This happens in wartime. But I don't know about that.

Mr. SPECTER. So that it is possible in some situations there is some delay in reaction?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. I couldn't say.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it a highly individual matter as to the reaction of an individual on that subject?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. I don't know.

Mr. DULLES. But take a wound like the wrist wound of Governor Connally. He couldn't get that without knowing it, could he?

Dr. DZIEMIAN. I think he said that he didn't know he had a wrist wound until much later.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. I have no further questions of Dr. Dziemian, Commissioner Dulles.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF DR. FREDERICK W. LIGHT, JR.

Mr. DULLES. Doctor, would you give your full name?

Dr. LIGHT. Frederick W. Light, Jr.

Mr. DULLES. Would you raise your right hand? Do you swear that the testimony that you will give before this Commission is the truth, the whole truth, so help you God?

Dr. LIGHT. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Light, the purpose of asking you to appear today is to question you concerning the results of tests taken at the Edgewood Arsenal. With that brief statement of purpose, I will ask you to state your full name for the record, please.

Dr. LIGHT. Frederick W. Light, Jr.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your business or profession, sir?

Dr. LIGHT. I am a physician specializing in pathology.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your educational background?

Dr. LIGHT. I have an A.B. from Lafayette in 1926, M.D. from Johns Hopkins Medical School in 1930, and Ph. D. from Hopkins in 1948.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline your experience since 1933 in a very general way, please?

Dr. LIGHT. Well, in 1933 I was still at the Reading Hospital, resident in pathology. Between then and 1940 I was pathologist in Clarksburg, W. Va., and later in Springfield, Ill. In 1940 I returned to Johns Hopkins University to study mathematics for awhile.

Mr. DULLES. To study mathematics?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes. And then in 1952, or 1951, excuse me, I began working at Edgewood Arsenal where I am at the present time.

Mr. SPECTER. What have your duties consisted of while working at Edgewood Arsenal?

Dr. LIGHT. Primarily the study of pathology of wounding.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your formal title there now, Dr. Light?

Dr. LIGHT. I am chief of the Wound Assessment Branch and assistant chief of the Biophysics Division.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your relationship to Dr. Olivier and Dr. Dziemian?

Dr. LIGHT. Dr. Dziemian is the chief of the division. Dr. Olivier is chief of one of the branches, and I am chief of one of the other branches.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been present here today to hear the full testimony of Dr. Olivier?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And were the tests which he described conducted under your joint supervision with Dr. Olivier?

Dr. LIGHT. Only a very general way. I wouldn't want to say I supervised him at all. We discussed what he was going to do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would it be more accurate to state that you coordinated with him in the tests which were under his general supervision?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes; that might be stretching it a bit even.

Mr. SPECTER. How would you characterize your participation?

Dr. LIGHT. Largely--originally Dr. Dziemian, as I recall, was ill, and by the time we began to do these specific tests that you mention, Dr. Dziemian was back on the job again. So he took over whatever supervision was needed.

Mr. SPECTER. Were the tests which Dr. Olivier described made at the request of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes; they were.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add by way of any detail to the findings reported by Dr. Olivier in his testimony here earlier today?

Dr. LIGHT. No; I think he covered it very thoroughly.

Mr. SPECTER. And as to the conclusions and opinions which he expressed, do you agree or disagree, to some extent, on his conclusions?

Dr. LIGHT. I agree in general at least. I am not quite so certain about some of the things, but generally I certainly agree with what he said.

Mr. DULLES. What are the things on which you are not quite so certain?

Dr. LIGHT. For example, I am not quite as sure in my mind as I believe he is that the bullet that struck the Governor was almost certainly one which had hit something else first. I believe it could have produced that wound even though it hadn't hit the President or any other person or object first.

Mr. DULLES. That is the wound, then, in the thigh?

Dr. LIGHT. No; in the chest.

Mr. DULLES. I was thinking that the wound in the thigh--let me start again. As I understand the previous testimony, Dr. Olivier would have expected the wound in the thigh to be more serious if it had not hit some object.

Dr. LIGHT. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Prior to entering Governor Connally's body, but you feel that the wound in the thigh might be consistent?

Dr. LIGHT. The wound in the thigh is the terminal end, is the far end of the whole track. I don't believe that in passing through the tissue which was simulated by what Dr. Olivier described first, 13 or 14 centimeters of gelatin, I don't believe that the change in velocity introduced by the passage through that much tissue can be relied upon to make such a definite difference in the effect.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you believe that if the Governor had been struck by a pristine bullet which had gone through his chest, that it would have caused no more damage than which appeared on the Governor's chest?

Dr. LIGHT. I think that is possible; yes. I might say I think perhaps the best, the most likely thing is what everyone else has said so far, that the bullet did go through the President's neck and then through the chest and then through the wrist and then into the thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. You think that is the most likely possibility?

Dr. LIGHT. I think that is probably the most likely, but I base that not entirely on the anatomical findings but as much on the circumstances.

Mr. SPECTER. What are the circumstances which lead you to that conclusion?

Dr. LIGHT. The relative positions in the automobile of the President and the Governor.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other circumstances which contribute to that conclusion, other than the anatomical findings?

Dr. LIGHT. And the appearance of the bullet that was found and the place it was found, presumably, the bullet was the one which wounded the Governor.

Mr. SPECTER. The whole bullet?

Dr. LIGHT. The whole bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. Identified as Commission Exhibit No. 399?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what about that whole bullet leads you to believe that the one bullet caused the President's neck wound and all of the wounds on Governor Connally?

Dr. LIGHT. Nothing about that bullet. Mainly the position in which they are seated in the automobile.

Mr. SPECTER. So in addition to the----

Dr. LIGHT. And the fact that the bullet that passed through the President's body lost very little velocity since it passed through soft tissue, so that it would strike the Governor, if it did, with a velocity only, what was it, 100 feet per second, very little lower than it would have if it hadn't struck anything else first. I am not sure, I didn't see, of course, none of us saw the wounds in the Governor in the fresh state or any other time, and I am not too convinced from the measurements and the descriptions that were given in the surgical reports and so on that the actual holes through the skin were unusually large.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had access to the autopsy records?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you had access to the reports of Parkland Hospital on the Governor's operations there?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. All three of them?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you had an opportunity to view the films of the assassination commonly known as the Zapruder films?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And the slides?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you had an opportunity to talk to Dr. Shaw and Dr. Gregory who performed the thoracic and wrist operations on Governor Connally?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And you heard Governor Connally's version yourself?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes; but not in----

Mr. SPECTER. Not in the Commission?

Dr. LIGHT. Not in the Commission session.

Mr. SPECTER. But at the time when the films were viewed by the Governor?

Dr. LIGHT. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. At the VFW building on the first floor?