Chapter IV: Front Matter (4)

Mr. RANKIN. You didn't say anything like that?

Mr. REVILL. I don't recall making such a statement.

Mr. RANKIN. And he didn't say anything like that to you that you recalled?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Did you write this out in longhand?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; and then I dictated it to one of the stenos in the office. And she was to, this is what I mentioned earlier the time element, she was to, she got off at 4 o'clock and this was before she went home for the day.

Mr. DULLES. This is on November 22 you are talking about?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Did you sign it on November 22 or at a later date?

Mr. REVILL. The same time.

Mr. DULLES. But you swore to it on the 7th day of April 1964?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. You swore that was your signature?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; at the time I was hoping it would never come up.

Mr. RANKIN. Why?

Mr. REVILL. Because of the relations that we had with the Bureau.

Mr. RANKIN. You thought this was a bad thing for the Bureau?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. RANKIN. For them to admit to you that they knew----

Mr. REVILL. Not the admitting but to withhold it.

Mr. RANKIN. To withhold the information?

Mr. REVILL. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. They thought this man was capable of being an assassin?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. And yet you say that Agent Hosty just blurted that out?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you told us all that you remember about it?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; all that I remember.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you make this----

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question that comes right along with that? Did he say anything to you about his having been in Russia and redefected?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. That did not come up in this conversation?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him how he knew he was a Communist?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. DULLES. Why not?

Mr. REVILL. I don't know.

Representative FORD. In the statement that you gave on November 22 which you have signed, you say?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. "The subject was arrested for the murder of J. D. Tippit and is a prime suspect in the assassination of President Kennedy."

Mr. REVILL. This I found out after reporting to my office, I didn't know what time this happened.

Representative FORD. In other words, you learned this subsequent to going with Hosty?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. And then coming back to your own office?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; some of the officers assigned to the Special Service Bureau on--were involved in the arrest, Detectives Carroll and I talked to Agent Bob Barrett, I ran into him in the hall and he had told me about the arrest of Oswald. I think he was present at the time.

Representative FORD. That is how you learned about this?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. At what time of day did you make this actual statement and sign it approximately?

Mr. REVILL. Approximately 3:30, 3:35.

Mr. DULLES. 3:35 on the 22d of November?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. This is the actual statement that you then signed and then you swore to it, and the notary's signature was put on on the 22d of April?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; the notary's was on April 7, I believe.

Mr. DULLES. 7th day of April, I mean, 7th day of April.

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; but this is the report that I signed on the 22d.

Mr. DULLES. This is the actual report that you signed on the 22d?

Mr. REVILL. On the 22d. This is a copy, I believe.

Mr. DULLES. Yes; this is a copy I have in my hand.

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. The original of this was made on November 22?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And signed on November 22d?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. DULLES. And later sworn to on April 7?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; this is correct.

Mr. DULLES. April 7, 1964.

Mr. RANKIN. Is all the information on 709 given by you?

Mr. REVILL. Is this 709?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. REVILL. All of the information, what do you mean by this, sir?

Mr. RANKIN. All of the language and everything on that exhibit, did you give that to some stenographer to write?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I wrote it out. My stenographer, she is a clerk typist, and--I roughed it out and then she typed it for me.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, the words "subject" Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that given by you on the slip of paper you wrote out?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I wrote it out in longhand.

Mr. RANKIN. And the words 605 Elsbeth Street, was that given by you?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; this is the address we were given or I was given by some of the officers involved in the arrest.

Mr. RANKIN. Who gave that to you?

Mr. REVILL. I believe Detective Carroll, Carroll or Detective Taylor, they were both there.

Mr. RANKIN. And was that at the time you made this out that you were given that information?

Mr. REVILL. Shortly before I made this out.

Mr. RANKIN. You didn't even know where he lived then?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I did not. I had never heard of him.

Mr. RANKIN. You know that is wrong, don't you?

Mr. REVILL. The 605?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. REVILL. I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Is it wrong?

Mr. REVILL. Yes; it is.

Mr. DULLES. As of the time.

Mr. REVILL. That is what they gave me.

Mr. RANKIN. You found that out?

Mr. DULLES. This is an address he once lived at.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know that?

Mr. DULLES. This is correct. I want to find out what he knows about it.

Mr. REVILL. Is this a--is this an incorrect address on Mr. Oswald where he was living at the time?

Mr. RANKIN. If you check it up I think you will find--it is an incorrect address at the time. I think you will also find that 602 Elsbeth Street is where he lived at one time.

Mr. REVILL. Now, where they got this address----

Mr. RANKIN. You never checked that?

Mr. REVILL. I personally have not checked it but I am sure it has been checked.

Mr. RANKIN. I see.

Mr. REVILL. But this is the address I was given.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, you say here that you were told that the subject was a member of the Communist Party. Is that right?

Mr. REVILL. This might be my interpretation of Mr. Hosty saying a Communist killed the President and we had him in our security files.

Mr. RANKIN. You are an expert in this field, aren't you? You are working in the subversive field?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; but as far as an expert, I wouldn't say I am an expert.

Mr. RANKIN. You know the difference between membership and a person being a Communist, don't you?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. And you know it is a very real difference?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; there is a difference.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know which Mr. Hosty told you?

Mr. REVILL. He did not say that he was a member. This was my connotation of what he said that a Communist, that "We had him in our security files."

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question? Where did you get this address that you put on of 605 Elsbeth Street, do you recall?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; from Detective E. B. Carroll or Detective Taylor.

Mr. DULLES. Are they subordinates?

Mr. REVILL. No; they are detectives assigned to the special service bureau. One of them works the narcotics squad and one of them is assigned to the vice unit.

Mr. DULLES. You never ascertained where they got it?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; this might be the address that they got from Oswald, I do not know. I never even thought about it until you brought up the point that this is not the address.

Mr. DULLES. Can you find out where they got this address?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I can.

Mr. DULLES. I think that would be useful. I would like to know that. I would like to know where they got this address also.

Mr. REVILL. It would have been the same day because this was made within an hour----

Mr. RANKIN. You didn't put down on this statement anything about what you said, did you?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. RANKIN. Why didn't you?

Mr. REVILL. All I was doing was reporting what Mr. Hosty said to me.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that the way you make all your reports just one side?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. You never say what you said?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I do not put our opinions or our interpretation in the report.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't even say what you asked?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. You just put the answer down?

Mr. REVILL. Put what was given to me; yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. And that is the way all the police department reports are made?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I don't know whether this is the way they are all made. This is the way we do it in our unit.

Mr. RANKIN. After you made this report, do you know what happened to it?

Mr. REVILL. I gave it to the captain, my captain, Captain Gannaway.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether it was given to the Commission when the police reports were furnished to the Commission?

Mr. REVILL. This I do not know, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. I will tell you that it was not given to the Commission. Do you know any reason why it was withheld?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any reason why it should have been withheld until Chief Curry came here?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with that being withheld?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I gave it to my superior, and what he did with it, I do not know.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever have any discussions about withholding it?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. You did want to protect Agent Hosty, you say?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. And you hoped the information would not get out?

Mr. REVILL. By hoping----

The CHAIRMAN. He didn't say exactly that, Mr. Rankin. He said he hoped he wouldn't have to use it against Hosty as I understood him to say.

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; my opinion, and this was my personal opinion that it would not serve any purpose. In your scope of the investigation, yes, I can see where it would, but I hated to get involved in a controversy with the FBI, because of our past relations.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you recently have a conversation with Lieutenant Hopkins of Fort Worth?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Where was that?

Mr. REVILL. Lieutenant Hopkins and I went to Sacramento, Calif., to a law enforcement intelligence unit conference and shared a room.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss this matter with him?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; it broke in the papers while we were there.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to him about it?

Mr. REVILL. About the report? About this report?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. REVILL. I told him about the conversation with Mr. Hosty and about according to the news release, the news stories, this thing was released, and the newspaper reporters and television people in Sacramento made it impossible for me to remain at the conference so I returned to Dallas. I was there for 1 day and returned the next, the next evening.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about the report being inaccurate?

Mr. REVILL. Inaccurate?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. REVILL. No, sir.

Representative FORD. What was the date of this conference in Sacramento?

Mr. REVILL. April 22, 23, and 24, I believe. It was on a Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. It could have been the 23d, 24th, and 25th but I returned on Friday evening.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you examine the newspaper report of your report, Exhibit 709?

Mr. REVILL. Did I examine it? Yes, sir; I read several newspaper reports of it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you give the reports to the newspapers?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with giving it to the newspapers?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; this would have been the last thing I would have done.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who did?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I do not.

Representative FORD. What prompted you to discuss this information with the other officer from Fort Worth?

Mr. REVILL. I started getting long-distance telephone calls on the evening, it must have been the 23d, it was Thursday night, I got two long-distance phone calls, and Lieutenant Hopkins and I were sharing a double room and, of course----

The CHAIRMAN. Lieutenant who?

Mr. REVILL. Lieutenant Hopkins of the Fort Worth Police Department. H. F. Hopkins.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. REVILL. And I discussed it with him.

Representative FORD. Who was calling you long distance, what relevance does that have to it?

Mr. REVILL. To my discussing it with him?

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. REVILL. The long-distance phone calls were about this report, the Associated Press and the United Press.

Representative FORD. I see. They had heard about it, they called you long distance and you discussed it with Hopkins who was in the room with you?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. That is all that I have, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you anything further, or you?

Mr. DULLES. Tippit was not under your jurisdiction, was he?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; he was not.

The CHAIRMAN. Lieutenant, I am not familiar with the newspaper report that you are speaking of. What, in substance, did it say?

Mr. REVILL. There were several articles written. The Dallas papers carried articles on it and the Sacramento, Calif., paper carried an article on it. In essence it had to do with this conversation that Hosty and I had and about this report and somewhere, someplace some newspaper reporter must have seen a copy of this because he knew how many paragraphs they had in it and he quoted, I believe, the last paragraph of the report verbatim, and this is what concerned me, that a report such as this would fall into their hands.

Now, who the reporter is, there were several reporters that were curious about the thing, and I don't even recall which newspaper carried the verbatim paragraph about Agent Hosty's conversation.

The CHAIRMAN. And that is what caused you and Lieutenant Hopkins to have a discussion?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he bring the matter up to you or did you bring it up to him?

Mr. REVILL. I might have brought it up to him because I was concerned that this thing had been released.

The CHAIRMAN. What was your conversation concerning that?

Mr. REVILL. That I had received these calls, the first one must have been around 2 o'clock in the morning, California time, from the Associated Press. It was a lady writer, and she asked about this and I told her that any statement would have to be made by Chief Curry, and she trapped me really. She made a false statement that Hosty was supposed to have said something else and I said no, that is not so. He did not make a statement, and then there was my comment. From that it looked like I had written them out a press release.

The CHAIRMAN. Looks like what?

Mr. REVILL. It appears as if I had written out a press release from the comment in the newspapers but that was the only statement I made that Hosty had not made such statement, it was a fabrication, he knew he was capable, but he did not make such a statement. Hosty did not make such a statement.

The CHAIRMAN. Then you discussed that with Mr. Hopkins?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you recall just what Mr. Hopkins asked you and what you told him about this report?

Mr. REVILL. Well, when I received the first call, I was in the coffee shop, it was 2 o'clock in the morning, we had been out with two of the Sacramento County Sheriff's officers and I got the call and after getting the call I went to the room and Hopkins had been awakened by this phone call, and I told him about the call, and then from there on, I had numerous long-distance calls, and I answered the one with the UPI, and then I decided I would not talk to people. Because I couldn't see where it would help anything.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he ask you if the substance of this report was true, I am speaking now of Exhibit 709, the one we have been talking about.

Mr. REVILL. Mr. Hopkins had never seen this report. I just told him what had transpired between Hosty and I and told him that a report had been made, and this is what they were calling on.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you at any time in talking to him repudiate anything that was in this report?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir. The only thing I repudiated was the fact that this reporter had said that Hosty had made a statement and I said no, this is not true, about them not believing that he would do it, and I think I told Hopkins that.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Anything more?

Mr. DULLES. I have nothing more.

The CHAIRMAN. Lieutenant, thank you very much, sir, for your help here.

Mr. REVILL. Thank you, sir. I am just sorry it happened.

The CHAIRMAN. You have told us what the truth of the situation is, you could do no more and no less.

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

(Discussion off the record.)

The CHAIRMAN. Lieutenant, just a question or two, we forgot to ask, Mr. Rankin, would you ask them, please?

Mr. RANKIN. You said you made some handwritten notes about this 709 exhibit.

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. When you gave them to the typist--do you know what happened to those notes?

Mr. REVILL. They were destroyed, I am sure.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what her name is who typed 709?

Mr. REVILL. Mary Jane Robertson.

Mr. RANKIN. Is she still with the police department?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. What position is she in now?

Mr. REVILL. She is a clerk-typist in the special service bureau.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know where the original of 709 is?

Mr. REVILL. With Chief Curry, I assume. Well, let's see. You have a copy; I would assume he has got it.

Mr. DULLES. Wasn't a copy made at the time?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I have it.

Mr. DULLES. The actual copy, you have?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; it is in my little briefcase.

Mr. RANKIN. So that original would be available to us?

Mr. DULLES. You have it here now?

Mr. REVILL. I have a copy.

Mr. DULLES. A carbon copy?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. He showed us a copy of his testimony.

Representative FORD. Do you know how many copies were made?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; one and one; an original and one.

Representative FORD. And you kept one copy and one went to Captain Gannaway?

Mr. REVILL. No; both copies went to Captain Gannaway who is my immediate superior and he later gave me back the carbon and the original went to Chief Curry.

Representative FORD. And you have had the one copy in your possession since how long?

Mr. REVILL. Probably a week or two after this thing happened, and I have had it in the Lee Harvey Oswald file.

Representative FORD. You have had this copy in your files in the police department?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Since about December 1 or thereabouts?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; thereabouts.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you number those items in the file?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And the order in which they come in?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir. Now, this particular report was put in the Lee Harvey Oswald file, and he was given an intelligence number, A & T, if I may get this copy I will explain to you----

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; would you do so, please?

Mr. REVILL. Excuse me just a moment. You see, he was given A & T 2965, page 34, as it appears in his file. This is indexed with a card with this file number and page number.

The CHAIRMAN. May I ask, would the next item in that file be numbered 35?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; it would.

The CHAIRMAN. And the one directly preceding it would be 33?

Mr. REVILL. Thirty-three; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I see, and you have the rest of your file which would indicate that?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I don't have it with me.

The CHAIRMAN. No; but you have it in your records.

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And that could be produced if we wanted it?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; it is the complete file we have now on Lee Harvey Oswald.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. May we have----

Mr. DULLES. Could I just see that?

Mr. RANKIN. Could we make a copy of that?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I put another piece in there because it is on onion skin.

Mr. RANKIN. We could make a photostatic copy quickly and return this to you.

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, I would like to number this in the next order of exhibits and offer it in evidence, if I may, this copy, the photostatic copy.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Just as a security matter, would you kindly look in the file and see if by any chance your original longhand notes could have been put in the file, at this place in the file?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I can, but I am sure they were not, because this was not made at my office. You see, we are removed physically from the police department, the intelligence unit, and this was made at the special service bureau office.

Mr. DULLES. I see, not in your own office.

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; we are an integral part of the special service bureau office but our files are maintained elsewhere, and this was made at the special service bureau office.

Representative FORD. When you sat down to write out this statement, just describe where you did it and how you did it, what kind of paper you used and so forth.

Mr. REVILL. Well, we use the white pads like this, and I wrote it out on the pad, and in the special service bureau office and it was made in Lieutenant Dyson's office, he was out, and I used his desk, and then I took it to Mrs. Robertson, and she typed it.

Representative FORD. Did you consult with Detective Brian?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir.

Representative FORD. During the time you were preparing it?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Or subsequent to its preparation?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I did not. At the time I couldn't have told you who was with me or who overheard this thing because there was so much confusion in the elevator and going to the elevator.

Representative FORD. But Brian was with you on the elevator?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; he was with me in the automobile and on the elevator.

Representative FORD. Was he up in Gannaway's office with you, too?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; he works for me.

Representative FORD. He was with you at the time you went to Gannaway's office?

Mr. REVILL. The special service bureau office; yes, sir.

Representative FORD. But he didn't see this at anytime?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I say he didn't, I don't know whether he ever saw it or not. He might have seen it when I was working on it and I gave both of the copies to the captain.

The CHAIRMAN. Lieutenant, did that entire Oswald file that you have just told us about come to the Commission, do you know?

Mr. REVILL. I don't know. Now what we did, we made up several large books, and it is my understanding that a copy of one of these was given to the Attorney General Waggoner and he was in turn to furnish it to this Commission, this I was told by Captain Gannaway.

Mr. RANKIN. When was that?

Mr. REVILL. This was a month or two ago.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes; but not when you first gave the files.

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; because this happened on the same day.

The CHAIRMAN. Should that file have included this?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; it didn't. There were only two pieces made of it, one copy and the original made of this.

The CHAIRMAN. I see. What I am getting at, when the department sent their reports to us, did they send copies of this file that Exhibit 709 is in?

Mr. REVILL. The Lee Harvey Oswald file?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. REVILL. I don't believe they did, because much of this is, pertains to newspaper articles, and information that we picked up such as leads where Ruby and Oswald were seen together, we ran all these things down, and then we would make a report of the lead, or the findings, and a copy of it would go in their files.

The CHAIRMAN. I see.

Mr. REVILL. But this one here, was not placed in that book?

Mr. DULLES. In the original of Commission Exhibit No. 709 that you have just given us prior to the notary public's inscription, subscription to it, there is red ink underlining of Lee Harvey Oswald and James Hosty. When was that put on this copy?

Mr. REVILL. I don't know, sir. Captain Gannaway must have done that because he had the thing and then later gave it to me. Now, the reason for it being underlined, I don't know. On the original--yes; I do.

Mr. DULLES. Would that be for filing purposes?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I do. Normally we retain the original copy of every report for our file copy, but I did not have the file copy or the original report so our clerk in indexing this underscored the name and the address and she made cards for the index files.

Mr. DULLES. That was a card, also, under the file of James Hosty?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. His name is also underlined in red?

Mr. REVILL. His name indexed; yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. In your original copy of Exhibit 709?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; not the original copy, because the original----

Mr. DULLES. The carbon copy, excuse me, the carbon copy of 709.

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And I assume that Commission's Exhibit No. 709 which is a photostat is a photostat of the original rather than of the carbon copy?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; and I don't know who made the photostat, I did not. I assume Chief Curry had it made.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, we are giving the number 838 to the carbon copy of Exhibit 709 that Lieutenant Revill has just produced.

The CHAIRMAN. You propose to take a photostat of this and return this report to the lieutenant?

Mr. RANKIN. If we may, Mr. Chief Justice, this is the only copy that I have.

The CHAIRMAN. You should have it back.

Mr. REVILL. That is fine.

The CHAIRMAN. We will take a photostat and return this to you then.

Mr. REVILL. I appreciate that.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted in that manner.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 838 for identification, and received in evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all. Thank you, again, lieutenant.

Mr. REVILL. I will attempt to find out on that address, and I shall let Mr. Sorrels know, with Secret Service.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes; that will be fine.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF V. J. BRIAN

The CHAIRMAN. Come right in, sir. Detective Brian, the purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Lieutenant Revill and yourself with particular regard to an alleged conversation with Special Agent James P. Hosty, Jr. of the Federal Bureau of Investigation claimed to have occurred on November 22, 1963, in the afternoon and also concerning the facts surrounding the discussion of Commission Exhibits Nos. 709 and 711. 709 is the affidavit of Lieutenant Revill, and 711 is the affidavit that you made concerning that matter.

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir; I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Please be seated.

Mr. Rankin will conduct the examination.

Mr. BRIAN. My name is Brian.

Mr. RANKIN. Where do you live?

Mr. BRIAN. In Dallas, Tex.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have some connection with the police department in Dallas?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir; I am a detective in the criminal intelligence section.

Mr. RANKIN. How long have you occupied that position?

Mr. BRIAN. Since June of 1955.

Mr. RANKIN. What is your function as a detective for the criminal intelligence section?

Mr. BRIAN. To gain, obtain information and keep records and files, and usually when an important Government official comes to town we guard them or help assist guard them, and furnish information for other agencies outside of the Dallas Police Department and have liaison, and general criminal investigation work.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with the Lee Harvey Oswald case?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. When was the first time that you had anything to do with that matter?

Mr. BRIAN. Well, we started interrogating people and talking to people immediately after the assassination.

Mr. RANKIN. About what time of the day?

Mr. BRIAN. In the middle of the afternoon, probably----

Mr. RANKIN. November 22, 1963?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir. The first thing that we done, I was, I personally that day was, assigned at the Dallas Trade Mart where the President was to speak, I was on the side of the speaker stand when he was to come in, and they came in and got us and told us that he had been shot, and the President of the United States had been shot, and that a man in the Book Depository down there and told us to go down there and see if we could get him out, and four of us detectives down there got in a car and we went to the Book Depository and we arrived there a short time, I don't know what time it was, a short time after the shooting occurred.

Mr. RANKIN. Who were the four you are describing now?

Mr. BRIAN. Lieutenant Revill, myself, a detective, O. J. Tarver, and a detective, Roy W. Westphal.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you do there?

Mr. BRIAN. We searched the Book Depository for a couple of hours. We spent about 2 hours, I would guess, approximately 2 hours down there searching the Depository.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you find anything at that time?

Mr. BRIAN. No, sir. I was there on the floor when the man found shells over in a corner when--where the assassin was hidden at. But other than that, I wasn't present when anything was found.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you just describe that event when you saw those shells?

Mr. BRIAN. Well, a police sergeant, Jerry Hill, hollered, I was on the opposite side of the sixth floor, hollered that he had, this is where he shot from, and shells were laying there, and I walked from where I was at over to the other corner of the building and looked, and that is about the extent of my investigation there because they called the crime laboratory and everybody else to get down there and they got an officer to guard the place and not let nobody get around and we went on searching the building.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you see, how many shells did you see?

Mr. BRIAN. I am going to guess.

Mr. RANKIN. We don't want you to guess. If you can tell us your recollection, that is all.

Mr. BRIAN. Well, the first time I went over there, I believe I saw two, but I am not sure, but I went back again later and there were three shells there.

Mr. RANKIN. Now after that, did you leave the Depository Building?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir; after we spent considerable time, we went from the top floor down to the bottom floor, back up, going through it, and we finally wound up on the second floor taking all the acoustic tile out of the ceiling looking up to see if anybody was hidden up there, and I believe that was the last thing we did in the building. By that time, there were a number of people in the building.

Mr. RANKIN. You were making a complete search of each floor, were you?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir; I was with, I mean there were a number of officers there. I didn't do it by myself, there were a number of us there and we were searching it.

Mr. RANKIN. Then you left the building?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you leave with some other officers?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir; Lieutenant Revill, myself, and Tarver and Westphal all went back to the car and left to go to city hall.

Mr. RANKIN. Then you got back to the city hall. What did you do?

Mr. BRIAN. We drove into the basement and parked.

Mr. RANKIN. What time of the day was that, can you tell us?

Mr. BRIAN. Probably around 2 o'clock or somewhere in that. I don't really know to be truthful because I didn't pay any attention to the time but it was around 2 o'clock, I would guess.

Mr. RANKIN. And the four of you were together at that time?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. What happened at that point?

Mr. BRIAN. We got out of the car, and as we got out of the car----

Mr. DULLES. Was the car already inside the building or in the driveway there?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir.

Let me explain. City hall basement, as some of you all know----

Mr. DULLES. I was just there so I want to know.

Mr. BRIAN. We came around the ramp and we parked in the basement. We were parked in the basement, and we got out, and started around, there is a railing there, we started around the railing and at that time Jim Hosty was coming across the basement, at a fast trot, or moving fairly fast----

Mr. RANKIN. Special Agent Hosty of the Bureau?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir.

And he came across there and I know him, and I had known him for a good while to speak to him.

Mr. RANKIN. Where were you with reference to Lieutenant Revill at that point?

Mr. BRIAN. I think I was on his, probably his right-hand side.

Mr. RANKIN. Close to him?

Mr. BRIAN. Fairly close; yes, sir.

And so we walked over to meet, kind of cornered, you cross paths and we walked up there to meet Jim, and he said, he came up there and he said, that Lee Oswald, a Communist, killed the President, and then Revill said, "What?" He said, Lee Oswald, a Communist, killed the President.

He was in--nervous--in a hurry, and was just talking.

And then he said, he said that he knew that he was a Communist and he knew he worked in the Book Depository, and then Lieutenant Revill said something else to him, I am not--I don't know what he said, and they walked off in front of me going in around and in through the door over to the elevator to go up, and then we accompanied Agent Hosty up to Captain Fritz' office which is on the----

Mr. DULLES. Was the elevator there at the basement floor when you took it or did you have to wait?

Mr. BRIAN. We had to wait just a very short time on it. It wasn't standing open waiting; no, sir.

We had to wait on it just a very short time, I believe, and we went up to the third floor, and Hosty and Lieutenant Revill went in there and talked. I went to the door and just stepped inside and waited and then we went back downstairs to our office which is on two, right underneath Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. DULLES. You accompanied them to the third floor and then you came down?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. In the elevator?

Mr. BRIAN. That I am not sure.

Mr. DULLES. Or did you get out and come down the stairs?

Mr. BRIAN. I am not sure.

Mr. DULLES. But you weren't with Lieutenant Revill any further?

Mr. BRIAN. When we came back down to our office, we came back down, I am not sure whether we rode the elevator or not. It is a short trip down and I am--I would be afraid to say whether we walked, rode, or how we got down, but we went into Captain Gannaway's office and Revill told, Lieutenant Revill told the Captain what Hosty had said, so he said, "Write a report."

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say at that time? What did he tell the Captain that Agent Hosty had said?

Mr. BRIAN. He told him, short and very quick, that they knew that Oswald was a Communist and that he was in the Book Depository, and he said, "Write a report and get it back to me right now."

And he went right back and wrote a report.

I forgot about the whole incident, I didn't think it would be important and I didn't--well, in fact, I didn't have time to because when I got back there they had a list of names they were going to start checking out and they handed me six of them and says, "Start going and checking here and here and here and checking these people."

So I never did dwell on it again.

Mr. RANKIN. In this conversation down in the basement, have you told us all that Agent Hosty said that you recall?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. And have you told us all that Lieutenant Revill said that you recall?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you told us all that Lieutenant Revill told to Captain Gannaway that you recall?

Mr. BRIAN. Well, let's see. I believe that I have, yes, sir. When--Captain Gannaway's office, as you go in the door and turn right and his office is in there and if I recall correctly I didn't go all the way in his office, he did and I stood in the door, and I really didn't make a mental note of what happened and things were moving at a rather fast pace, and I believe that I did; yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. You have made an affidavit about this, have you not?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir; I made a report to Chief Curry.

Mr. RANKIN. And you swore to that?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Is Exhibit 711 a photostatic copy of your report that you made that you have just described?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you swear to that report on the date that it bears?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. April 20, 1964?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. You read the Exhibit 711 right now, didn't you?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Is it correct?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Are there any additions or corrections that you wish to make to it?

Mr. BRIAN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I was just going to ask if you fixed the date on which he dictated that or wrote it, whichever he did.

Mr. RANKIN. I haven't, but I will.

Will you tell us on what date you wrote or dictated Exhibit 711?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir; the day before, I believe it was the day before, Chief Curry came up here. It was either a day or 2 days before April 20th is what it says on there. That is the date that I made the report, the day or 2 days before Chief Curry came up here.

Will you tell us on what date you wrote or dictated Exhibit 711?

Mr. BRIAN. I didn't think--well, Captain Gannaway told Lieutenant Revill to write a report about the thing the date it happened, and he did, or I assumed he did, and I guess that he did. I haven't----

Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever seen that report?

Mr. BRIAN. I have seen it, but I haven't read it. That is unusual but I haven't. I didn't think the incident was really important, that is the reason why I didn't dwell on it, and I am sure it is now or I wouldn't be up here.

But they, a few days before Chief Curry was to come up here they said they wanted a report, you know, to what I had heard in the basement and this and that and the other, and I said, "Well, I better write one then."

I just assumed it was all taken care of, and so I wrote one on the 20th, I wrote that report on the 20th and swore to it and turned it in and he brought it up here.

Mr. DULLES. You made no contemporaneous memoranda, that is on November 22 you made no notes or memoranda of this?

Mr. BRIAN. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. So the report of April 20 you dictated on or about April 20 is based on your memory?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 711, your report, was that written out in longhand or dictated to a girl?

Mr. BRIAN. No, sir; I typed it myself on the typewriter. We don't have a stenographer in our office to dictate to.

Mr. RANKIN. You did type the part about the notary and so forth on the bottom?

Mr. BRIAN. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who did that?

Mr. BRIAN. I believe Bill Biggio.

Mr. RANKIN. Who is he?

Mr. BRIAN. He is a detective who works the desk there, who is a notary who notarized it.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, before you made Exhibit 711 did anyone give you Lieutenant Revill's report to examine?

Mr. BRIAN. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Compare your report with?

Mr. BRIAN. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. And you have never read that?

Mr. BRIAN. I don't recall reading it; no, sir. I sure don't. I probably looked at it but as far as sitting down and reading it, I have never read the report, I don't believe.

Mr. RANKIN. So if there is any differences between your report and his you are not familiar with them?

Mr. BRIAN. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Subsequent to November 22 and prior to April 20, when you prepared this Exhibit 711, did you ever talk to Lieutenant Revill about the incident?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir; I sure did. He couldn't remember who was with him down in the basement, and it rocked on there and had rocked on there, and somewhere it came out that somebody said he was lying about it and he was telling us, he said, "I am telling you the truth". "You don't have to tell me, I know you are; I was standing there with you."

And he said, "You were the one who was with me?"

And I said, "Yes, I was with you."

And I assumed he knew that I was with him. That is when he talked to Chief Curry and Chief Curry come back and said he needed the report from me, too.

Representative FORD. When did this conversation take place?

Mr. BRIAN. The date I don't have any idea. Probably 2 or 3 weeks, I will tell you----

Mr. DULLES. 2 or 3 weeks what? After November 22?

Mr. BRIAN. No, sir; before the date I wrote the report, because I messed around there for another couple of weeks and then I walked in the office one day and he said, "Chief Curry wants it today," and I said, "All right, I will write it," and I sat down and wrote it, and I believe the next day or the day after that he brought it, came up here, and all this come out in the paper about making a statement and me backing the statement up in Dallas, I don't know whether it came up here or not.

Representative FORD. Who prompted this conversation that you have been describing?

Mr. BRIAN. In our office that day?

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. BRIAN. I am trying to think what brought it on. Somebody, there was a statement in the paper or something that said that--anyway, somewhere down the line it came out, it said it wasn't right what Lieutenant Revill had said.

And I said, "I know it is right, I was standing there," and that was about the extent of that.

And then he said, "Well, I will need"--he talked to Chief Curry, I guess, and they decided they needed a report from me on it, and then I finally wrote the report and he brought it up here. I guess it was just in the course of a conversation more than anything. I don't think anybody prompted it, really.

Representative FORD. In this Commission 711 you actually typed it out yourself?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Are you a fairly accomplished typist?

Mr. BRIAN. No, sir. I can type fairly well. I am not a touch typist. I can't copy, but I can type fairly well typing something I don't have to copy off of a sheet of paper. In other words, I have to look at the keys to type it.

Representative FORD. Did you have to rewrite this a second time on the typewriter?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir. I made several strikeovers and some other stuff, and typed it, I had to type it over again.

Representative FORD. In other words, you typed it out once, and then retyped it yourself?

Mr. BRIAN. Yes, sir; I typed it twice. The first time everything wasn't right in there and the spelling and the strikeovers and stuff, and not being an accomplished typist I still don't like to throw things out, you know, that don't look too bad so I typed it over again.

Representative FORD. But after you typed it over the first time did you show it to somebody else?

Mr. BRIAN. I believe Lieutenant Revill looked at it and called a bunch of mistakes to my attention.

Representative FORD. What kind of mistakes?

Mr. BRIAN. Well, I don't know. There were some strikeovers and some, a couple of misspelled words, I believe, and I don't have a copy of the one that I copied from so I couldn't say, but I did have to type the report over.

Representative FORD. But these mistakes that were pointed out by Lieutenant Revill, were they mistakes of substance or just mistakes involving spelling and the like?

Mr. BRIAN. Well, what do you mean by substance now?

Representative FORD. Well, I mean as to the precise things that you said as to what transpired?

Mr. BRIAN. I don't believe there were. I am trying to recall what I had to add that took place there, and----

Representative FORD. It is important whether or not any statements of facts were altered or whether the changes were simply typographical errors or otherwise.

Mr. BRIAN. I will tell you one thing that I recall he called to my attention was 2:05 p.m., I believe, and I told him, I said I can't put that in there because I don't know what time it was, and I don't. I don't have any idea of what time it was, and he said, "Well, all right, leave that out," but I think the substance was probably the same in both reports. In fact, I am sure the substance was probably the same, because it was, the grammar was changed in some places, some spelling was changed, and some strikeovers were changed, and I think probably the second report was copied, that one was copied partially from the first one and then I made some changes.

Representative FORD. While you were in the process of discussing this with Lieutenant Revill he didn't show you his report, Exhibit 709?

Mr. BRIAN. I don't know whether he did or not. I don't believe that he did. I don't believe he did.

Representative FORD. Had you seen it before?

Mr. BRIAN. I have seen the report.

Representative FORD. Did you see it before you typed this up?

Mr. BRIAN. I don't recall seeing it. I may have, but I don't recall it.

Now, he has got something in there that I don't have in mine, I know about him saying that Hosty knew that Oswald, I believe, was capable of assassinating the President, but I didn't hear Hosty say that.

Representative FORD. When did you learn that that statement was in Revill's statement?

Mr. BRIAN. Just to be truthful, I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Did Lieutenant Revill ask you to include in your statement that Hosty had said that Oswald was known to be capable of being an assassin?

Mr. BRIAN. No, sir; he asked me if I heard him say it and I told him no, but I don't believe he asked me to include that in the report.

Mr. DULLES. You told him, no.

Mr. RANKIN. When was that?

Mr. BRIAN. Probably the day--now, this all happened in the course of a week's time and the conversations are hard to put on a day or time, I mean when you don't think--I didn't think all this was real important, and so I didn't try to backlog it to where--it was probably the day, probably about April 20, along in there.

Mr. RANKIN. Before or after you wrote your report?

Mr. BRIAN. In between the first report and the second report I imagine.

Mr. RANKIN. I am not quite clear about how you happened to make this report in that I understood you to say that there were some newspaper accounts about it, and the lieutenant said, well, he had said what was true and something like that. Can you tell us what happened?

Mr. BRIAN. Well, now, to go back. We were in the office talking and I don't know how long this was because it may have been 2 days, 3 days, 2 weeks or 3 weeks, before I wrote that report, we were sitting in the office, and I don't recall whether it was a newspaper account or what it was, but anywhere somewhere down the line he got--somebody said that it wasn't the truth and he was lying or something and he was sitting out there talking and he said, he said he wasn't lying about it and I told him, I said "I know you are not lying because I stood there and heard you."

And he said, "Oh, you are the one who was with me?" And I said, "Yes."

But I assumed that his report, up until that time I had not seen his report, and I have seen it since then and I haven't read it from one end to the other until the other day, and he said, "Well, I am glad to know you are the one who was there then," and evidently he had forgotten I was there, too.

So, he said, "Well, make me a report on what you heard," and I said, "All right, I will," and he talked to Chief Curry and evidently before he told me that it was a matter of days or time differential in there and I said, "All right," and I just did not get around to it until finally one day I came in the office and he said, "I've got to have that report today," and I said, "All right," and I sat down and wrote it and I had to write it over again, that happened on the day the report is dated.

Mr. RANKIN. All of that happened, though, before any news accounts of it, didn't it?

Mr. BRIAN. Well, I don't remember when they started putting it in the newspapers. There had been something about it to make him, somewhere to make him say, he was trying to convince me he was telling the truth and I said, "Well, I know you are."

I don't know what brought it on, I don't know whether it was a newspaper report or something, but anyway there was some--maybe Chief Curry was on him about it, I don't know. But he said that he was telling the truth and I told him I knew he was telling the truth because I had heard it.

Mr. RANKIN. You said you were there with him?