Chapter XXXV: Section 51: 135, entitled "Denial of passports to members of Communist (5)

Mr. JENNER. And even including the boxes and packages of material?

Mr. SURREY. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. You will notice in substantially the center of that exhibit a rupture appears to be in the wall. Was that in fact a rupture?

Mr. SURREY. Yes; it was. That is where the bullet came out of the wall, and when the police came they found the bullet on top of these packages.

Mr. JENNER. On top of the packages shown on Commission Exhibit No. 1009. I show you Exhibit No. 1011, which appears to be a photograph of a fence, lattice fence. Are you familiar with that?

Mr. SURREY. I believe it is the same type of thing as is in back of Walker's home, in the alleyway.

Mr. JENNER. Is it not in fact a picture of the fence that is--surrounds to the rear General Walker's home?

Mr. SURREY. I don't know. It is the same type, it looks the same.

Mr. JENNER. It looks the same to you?

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When you made your diagram, Exhibit No. 1005, you drew a wavy line along the alley, and I think you said that was a lattice fence.

Mr. SURREY. Yes; I drew it too far. This is Jackson's back yard.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that is all right. The lattice fence you identified----

Mr. SURREY. Is of the same type and construction.

Mr. JENNER. As shown on Exhibit No. 1011?

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. Thank you. Is the area depicted on Commission Exhibit No. 1012 familiar to you?

Mr. SURREY. It looks like a picture taken from the top of that lattice fence towards the back of Walker's home.

Mr. JENNER. Next is Commission Exhibit No. 1010, which is a photograph of a tire imprint. On the evening of April 10 or the next day, April 11, when it was light, did you tour around General Walker's home with him or without him? There was a search made to see----

Mr. SURREY. Yes; there was.

Mr. JENNER. To find some identification in the way of automobile tire impressions?

Mr. SURREY. It is my impression that the police were looking primarily for a casing from a shell. I did not see them take any----

Mr. JENNER. So that the particular portion of the Walker vicinity shown on Commission Exhibit No. 1010 is not familiar to you?

Mr. SURREY. I wouldn't know where it was in the area.

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Those have all been formally introduced, Mr. Jenner?

Mr. JENNER. No; they have not, Mr. Chief Justice. If it suits your convenience I was going to offer all exhibits at once, so I don't overlook any.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; very well.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you. Some of the exhibits the witness has identified have already been introduced. They were exhibited to Marina Oswald.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Would you help us, also--I hand you a map of Dallas, which we will mark Commission Exhibit No. 1013--or I should correct myself--I hand you what purports to be a map of Dallas.

There is indicated by brush pencil a cross in the center of that map as representing the area of the residence of Maj. Gen. Edwin A. Walker, resigned, at 4011 Turtle Creek Boulevard in Dallas.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1013 for identification.)

Mr. SURREY. Yes; that is correct. That is the area.

Mr. JENNER. That is a scale map of Dallas that appears to have been obtained from the Dallas Transit Co. in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you received a telephone call from General Walker?

Mr. SURREY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The evening of April 10. It was about 9 o'clock? Please try to fix that time as accurately as you can.

Mr. SURREY. I would say it was closer to 9:15.

Mr. JENNER. And you arrived 15 minutes later?

Mr. SURREY. 10 to 15 minutes later.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you very carefully, calling on your most accurate recollection, recite for us--you came to the door, you entered, what did you see, who was there, and what was said to you by anyone, if anyone was there--just the course of events as best you are able to recall them that evening. And I will try not to interrupt you.

Mr. SURREY. When I pulled--I pulled up in front on Turtle Creek, got out of my car. A police car was there.

Mr. JENNER. Was there anything in addition to a police car?

Mr. SURREY. No.

Mr. JENNER. You pulled your car up on Turtle Creek Boulevard?

Mr. SURREY. Behind the police car.

Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough, when you refer to Turtle Creek Boulevard, to say boulevard, because we have talked about Turtle Creek, a stream.

Mr. SURREY. Turtle Creek Boulevard.

Mr. JENNER. There was one squad car there at that time?

Mr. SURREY. Yes; just as I was getting out of the car, another squad car came up.

Mr. JENNER. Turning to your plat, would you put an "X" with a circle where you drove up? The witness has now done that. All right. Now, you are on Turtle Creek Boulevard. Then what did you do? You parked?

Mr. SURREY. I parked and got out of my automobile, and walked up the front walkway into the house.

Mr. JENNER. I see. All right.

Mr. SURREY. There were several policemen in the house, just arriving. Mr. Walker was sitting at his desk in this back room.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now it will be helpful to the Commission--let's take this blank sheet of paper--you draw us a floor plan, will you please, of General Walker's home, and we will mark that Commission Exhibit No. 1014, so as to assist you in telling us what you did.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1014 for identification.)

Mr. SURREY. This is the ground floor.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, first let's locate the house. It is a rectangle that you have drawn. Is the rectangle facing the same as the rectangle marked "Walker" on Commission Exhibit No. 1005?

Mr. SURREY. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. So that the lower portion is east?

Mr. SURREY. Do we need these directions exactly, because that Turtle Creek Boulevard winds all around.

Mr. JENNER. All I want to do is tie it up with Commission Exhibit No. 1005.

Mr. SURREY. Yes; it is the same direction.

Mr. JENNER. Realizing that you have that problem of obliqueness, but relating it solely to Commission Exhibit No. 1005, the foot of Commission Exhibit No. 1014 represents an easterly direction, correct?

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And the top a westerly direction. And the right, northerly, and the left, southerly. All right. Now, we have it located.

Which is the doorway into General Walker's home?

Mr. SURREY. This is the--this is the front door. [Witness draws.]

Mr. JENNER. You have now put two oblique lines on the line facing southerly.

Mr. SURREY. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And then as you enter, there is a long hallway.

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And which is the rear of the house towards the alley?

Mr. SURREY. Toward the north.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, in what room, if any of those rooms on the first floor, was General Walker the night of April 10, 1963, when this incident occurred, as you learned when you reached there?

Mr. SURREY. His desk was positioned right there.

Mr. JENNER. You have now drawn a small but rather elongated rectangle, which appears to be opposite two lines you have drawn which I take it represents a window.

Mr. SURREY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And from what you learned from General Walker on that occasion in the presence of the policemen, was he seated at the desk?

Mr. SURREY. He was seated at his desk.

Mr. JENNER. His back to the window you have drawn, or facing the window?

Mr. SURREY. To the window.

Mr. JENNER. So he was facing to the window?

Mr. SURREY. No; his back was to the window.

Mr. JENNER. He was facing away from the window?

Mr. SURREY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you have drawn a little circle by the figure representing a desk, indicating where General Walker was seated?

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And facing westerly?

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, locate for us, put a circle with a cross, the wall, the side of the wall indicated by Commission Exhibit No. 1008.

Mr. SURREY. It is right here, sir. [Witness draws.]

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, that is shown, for the purpose of the record, to the left of the blank circle which the witness drew to show General Walker sitting at his desk. And that area that is shown on--the wall shown on Commission Exhibit No. 1009, I take it, is precisely the other side.

Mr. SURREY. The other side.

Mr. JENNER. You have done that by showing an area?

Mr. SURREY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Then we have that located.

Did General Walker in your presence relate what occurred?

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us what he said about how it occurred, when he became aware of it?

Mr. SURREY. I walked in the front door, and there were several policemen standing around in various areas. I walked in through here.

Mr. JENNER. When you say "through here" [witness draws two lines to represent door.]----

Mr. SURREY. Through the front----

Mr. JENNER. You came in from the south, the front, and you went down the hallway?

Mr. SURREY. It is not really a hallway. It is mostly glass doors here. And I walked through those glass doors.

Mr. JENNER. You have put three strikes on your sketch. What is that?

Mr. SURREY. Those are glass doors.

Mr. JENNER. You walked through the glass doorway. You walked into the room, the wall of which is shown on Commission Exhibit No. 1009. Correct?

Mr. SURREY. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. SURREY. And I went right through this room.

Mr. JENNER. Into the room in which General Walker's desk is located?

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The wall of which on that side appears shown on Commission Exhibit No. 1008?

Mr. SURREY. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. SURREY. The General was sitting at his desk.

Mr. JENNER. When you arrived?

Mr. SURREY. When I arrived.

Mr. JENNER. Was he facing----

Mr. SURREY. He was----

Mr. JENNER. Westerly?

Mr. SURREY. Yes, talking to a policeman in uniform. And I walked in and I said, "What happened? What's going on?" And he pointed to this hole in the wall.

Mr. JENNER. Shown on Commission Exhibit No. 1008?

Mr. SURREY. Yes. And I facetiously said, "Oh, you found a bug."

Mr. JENNER. Would you explain your facetious remark? I don't get the fact that it is facetious.

Mr. SURREY. Well, actually, it may not be. It is a common joke around the General's house that there may be microphones.

Mr. JENNER. That kind of a bug?

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That is, you saw the hole in the wall and you remarked facetiously that he had discovered the house had been bugged by an electronic device?

Mr. SURREY. Yes; and, therefore, had chopped a hole in the wall.

And he said, "No; I have been shot at." And he pointed to the hole in the window.

Mr. JENNER. Which is shown on Commission Exhibits Nos. 1007 and 1006?

Mr. SURREY. That is correct. Except the window was closed at this time--both casements were together.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; and there is a screen on that window?

Mr. SURREY. I believe there is.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. SURREY. And then----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. That would be the window which is the lower of the two sets of strikes appearing on the northerly line of your Exhibit No. 1014.

Mr. SURREY. Yes. I will mark it with an "A" and a circle.

Mr. JENNER. Good.

Mr. SURREY. And then a policeman asked him a question, and I noticed that his arm was bleeding.

Mr. JENNER. General Walker's arm?

Mr. SURREY. General Walker's arm, was bleeding in four or five places.

Mr. JENNER. How was he dressed?

Mr. SURREY. In a dress shirt of a color, as I recall, but it was not a sport shirt--and slacks.

Mr. JENNER. It was not a uniform of any character?

Mr. SURREY. No; and without a tie.

Mr. JENNER. Short sleeved or long sleeved?

Mr. SURREY. Long sleeved, rolled up.

Mr. JENNER. And his right arm, was it?

Mr. SURREY. His right arm, yes; on his forearm. And----

Mr. JENNER. Was he bleeding profusely?

Mr. SURREY. No. And he said "The jacket of the bullet must have come apart when it went through the window." And he brushed plaster--I assume it came from this wall--out of his hair, which was in his hair, also.

Mr. JENNER. What color hair does General Walker have?

Mr. SURREY. Brown; a dark brown.

Mr. JENNER. He has a fairly full head of hair, does he?

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And plaster and that sort of thing would be quite apparent, would it, to anyone who saw it in his hair?

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you noticed it?

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you noticed him brushing plaster out of his hair?

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, that leads me to ask you this, Mr. Surrey: That bullet hole is how high from the floor? I am showing you now Commission Exhibit No. 1009.

Mr. SURREY. You mean how high is the hole----

Mr. JENNER. From the floor.

Mr. SURREY. From the floor? Well, the police went into the next room and so did I, and sighted through the hole in the wall to the window.

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SURREY. And when Walker sat down at his desk, it went right through his head.

Mr. JENNER. So he was seated on a chair substantially the height of the one you are seated on?

Mr. SURREY. Yes, and he is approximately a little taller than I am.

Mr. JENNER. He is a little taller than you are. So that would be about 4, 4-1/2 feet.

Tell the Commission the distance from the wall, the point at which you have marked an "X" with a circle, and the place at which General Walker's chair was located.

Mr. SURREY. I would say 18 inches.

Mr. JENNER. He was that close?

Mr. SURREY. To the wall there; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. So that the representation you have made on Commission Exhibit No. 1014 is distorted?

Mr. SURREY. Yes; it is. The desk was right up against the wall, and he was seated in the middle of the desk.

Mr. JENNER. His chair was much closer to the wall than would appear to have been as you have roughly diagramed on Exhibit No. 1014?

Mr. SURREY. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. All right. In other words, he was close enough to the wall when seated at that chair so that when a bullet penetrating the plaster wall could have splattered plaster into his hair?

Mr. SURREY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed, sir.

Mr. SURREY. So I went over and looked at his arm, and there was a piece of metal in one particular spot in his arm, that I noticed, in addition to the other scratches, and I went looking for some first aid equipment and found tweezers upstairs, and came back downstairs and picked that piece of metal and two others out of his right forearm.

Mr. JENNER. And what was done with those pieces of metal?

Mr. SURREY. They were--I believe the police took them.

Mr. JENNER. But you recall that you, in fact, yourself took the pieces of metal from General Walker's right forearm?

Mr. SURREY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And--all right. Go ahead, sir.

Mr. SURREY. Well, then it became just a matter of the police questioning the general and myself. I don't recall which detective or which policemen and myself went out in the back and looked in the back area.

Mr. JENNER. Is that what you did next, after you took the metal out of General Walker's forearm?

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You immediately went out of the house----

Mr. SURREY. Not immediately; no. We talked. I would say within 2 or 3 minutes.

Mr. JENNER. But you did not go into any other room? That is what I am getting at first. You went outside first?

Mr. SURREY. I don't recall if we went in the other room then or later on.

Mr. JENNER. When you say the other room, it is the room opposite the one and to the left of the one shown on your diagram----

Mr. SURREY. As I recall, I merely looked around the separation here when they said that the bullet came clear through into the other room.

Mr. JENNER. Who said that?

Mr. SURREY. One of the policemen.

Mr. JENNER. And did you go around and look then?

Mr. SURREY. I just looked around the doorway; yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did you find when you looked around--what did you see?

Mr. SURREY. I saw these books stacked, as shown in this picture.

Mr. JENNER. Identify the picture, please.

Mr. SURREY. Exhibit No. 1009.

Mr. JENNER. Had--you mentioned a bullet as having been found.

Mr. SURREY. Yes, the policeman said he had found that bullet, on top of the packages.

Mr. JENNER. Shown in Exhibit No. 1009?

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was that portion of the bullet exhibited to you on that occasion?

Mr. SURREY. No.

Mr. JENNER. You did not see it?

Mr. SURREY. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was the statement that the bullet had been found on the opposite side of that wall made in the presence of General Walker?

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did General Walker say when that statement was made in his presence, if anything?

Mr. SURREY. I don't recall that he made any statement.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about where the spent bullet had been found?

Mr. SURREY. Not at that time, no. Not to me.

Mr. JENNER. Well, did he say it to an officer in your presence?

Mr. SURREY. Not that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Was it uttered by him at all in your presence on that evening?

Mr. SURREY. Not that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. That is, that the spent bullet had been found on the opposite side of the wall next to which he had been sitting?

Mr. SURREY. No; I think the policeman said it, and that is all that was said.

Mr. JENNER. But it was said in General Walker's presence?

Mr. SURREY. Yes; it was.

Mr. JENNER. What did the policeman say?

Mr. SURREY. He said the bullet went clean through the wall and they found it laying on the packages in the other room.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say they found it or "I found it"?

Mr. SURREY. He said, "I found it" as I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Proceed in your chronology, please.

Mr. SURREY. That is all there was to it. Then he started getting calls from newsmen, and newsmen coming to the door.

Mr. JENNER. First, you went out and looked around the premises.

Mr. SURREY. Yes; but it was quite dark at this time, and they said, "We will come back in the morning."

Mr. JENNER. I should have asked you this. Perhaps I just assumed it. Was it dark when you arrived at General Walker's home?

Mr. SURREY. Yes; it was.

Mr. JENNER. When does it get dark in Dallas, Tex., in this area in the spring?

Mr. SURREY. I would say 7.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have daylight saving time in Dallas?

Mr. SURREY. No; we don't.

Mr. JENNER. And you are on what time?

Mr. SURREY. Central standard.

Mr. JENNER. Central standard time?

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Well----

Mr. SURREY. It is 2 hours from here.

The CHAIRMAN. Two hours from here when we have daylight savings.

Mr. SURREY. You have daylight saving now?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Only 1 hour then.

Mr. SURREY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. After looking around, you say newspapermen began to come.

Mr. SURREY. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And interview General Walker?

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In your presence?

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And in the presence of the policemen?

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When did you leave General Walker's home that night?

Mr. SURREY. I stayed that night.

Mr. JENNER. Did you hear General Walker being interviewed?

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say about what had occurred, if anything?

Mr. SURREY. He said, "Somebody took a shot at me." This is the general tenor of the interviews as to what happened, and he said, "Somebody took a shot at me." I guess--"That is the closest I have ever been missed in 30 years of military service."

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about whether he was seated--whether he had been moving about?

Mr. SURREY. No; he said he had been seated at his desk when it happened. Working on his income tax.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Surrey, was there an occasion preceding October--April 10, 1963, that you noticed an automobile and some people in the automobile in and about General Walker's premises?

Mr. SURREY. Yes; that was 2 nights before, on Monday evening.

Mr. JENNER. That would be April 10?

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I mean April 8, I am sorry.

Mr. SURREY. April 8; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What time?

Mr. SURREY. About 8:30 to 9. I am not sure about what time it was.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, it was dark?

Mr. SURREY. Yes; it was.

Mr. JENNER. And tell the Commission what led up to that, what you said, and what you did. This incident that you have in mind.

Mr. SURREY. I was coming from my home, came down Turtle Creek Boulevard, passed in front of the general's house, and took a right-hand turn on Avondale, to come up to the alley.

Mr. JENNER. Have we put Avondale into your plat? You are now turning to Commission Exhibit No. 1005. [Witness draws.]

Mr. SURREY. The normal route into the parking lot behind the general's house----

Mr. JENNER. He does have a parking lot?

Mr. SURREY. Yes; this is the parking area back in here.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you crossline that, so we know it is the parking lot? [Witness draws.]

That is fine.

Mr. SURREY. I came up Turtle Creek Boulevard and turned right on Avondale prior to turning again up the alleyway, to go into the parking lot in back of General Walker's house. And I noticed a car parked 30 feet--about 20 yards actually----

Mr. JENNER. You have now drawn a rectangle on the edge of the sheet of paper, Exhibit No. 1005, marked with the letter "N." Would you write the word "car" in there?

The CHAIRMAN. What is this designed to establish, Mr. Jenner? We are getting a little afield, it seems to me.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Surrey, Mr. Chief Justice, was interviewed and related this particular incident, and we want to dissipate any possibility--I don't want to put it this way----

The CHAIRMAN. If it has some relevancy, all right. But let's don't take too long, because it is getting to be quite collateral. Go right ahead.

Mr. SURREY. Well, the gist of the matter is that two nights before the assassination attempt, I saw two men around the house peeking in windows and so forth, and reported this to the general the following morning, and he, in turn, reported it to the police on Tuesday, and it was Wednesday night that he was shot at. So that is really the gist of the whole thing.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. JENNER. I show you an exhibit marked Garner Exhibit No. 1. At anytime prior to April 10, 1963, were you familiar with the person who is shown on Garner Exhibit No. 1?

Mr. SURREY. No.

Mr. JENNER. When I say familiar, I mean did you know of or had you seen consciously a person with that physiognomy and physical appearance?

Mr. SURREY. No; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. That is a side view.

I show you Commission Exhibit No. 520. The man in the center--had you prior to April 10, 1963, ever seen a man with that physiognomy, facial showing, and body?

Mr. SURREY. No.

Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. I take it, then--I ask you this question. Neither of the two men that you saw in that automobile on the 8th of April 1963, at least to your present recollection, was the man shown on Garner Exhibit No. 1, and Commission Exhibit No. 520?

Mr. SURREY. I don't believe either of them was.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

The CHAIRMAN. May I ask--is this what you spoke of as the book?

Mr. SURREY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I notice on here that there is no price of any kind. You say you sold this for $5?

Mr. SURREY. That was an afterthought. The original intent was not a sale.

The CHAIRMAN. Was it ever advertised to the public as for sale from $5?

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Where was it advertised?

Mr. SURREY. In just a flier that we included with some materials we were mailing out.

The CHAIRMAN. I see. I would like to ask you if you were present when--at the time that they had--that there was the demonstration against Ambassador Adlai Stevenson?

Mr. SURREY. No; I was not.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you have anything to do with that demonstration?

Mr. SURREY. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Were you present when the demonstration was against then Vice President Johnson in Dallas?

Mr. SURREY. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you have anything to do with that?

Mr. SURREY. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, we have marked the book as Commission Exhibit No. 1015.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1015 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Would you please examine it? You need no more than just to look at it, so you will be able to testify that that is a true and correct copy of the book you have testified about, published by Eagle Publishing Co., which contains on its reverse cover side the letter to which you made reference.

Mr. SURREY. Yes, sir; it is.

The CHAIRMAN. What did it cost you to publish that?

Mr. SURREY. It came to $2.50 and some cents. In a limited quantity--3,000.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you now propose to offer all of the exhibits?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I have three more FBI photos, and then I will have completed.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Surrey, I show you three more photographs which are identified first as Commission Exhibit No. 997. Would you read the material that appears on the reverse side of that first, please?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 997 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Looking now at the face of the photograph, Commission Exhibit No. 997, does--do the inscriptions on the reverse side correctly describe that area of General Walker's home and the Mormon church references?

Mr. SURREY. Yes; they do.

Mr. JENNER. You are familiar with that area?

Mr. SURREY. Yes; I am.

JENNER. And its physical appearance, except for the foliage on the trees, is as that area looked on the night of April 10, 1963? Is that correct?

Mr. SURREY. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 1016.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1016 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Read the inscription on the reverse side, please. You are familiar with that area shown on the photograph?

Mr. SURREY. Yes; I am.

Mr. JENNER. Do the descriptions on the reverse side of the photograph correctly describe that area?

Mr. SURREY. With the exception that I do not know these cars and so forth.

Mr. JENNER. I am talking about the area.

Mr. SURREY. The physical area; yes, they do.

Mr. JENNER. And that area looks the same today as it did on the evening of April 10, or the day of April 10, 1963?

Mr. SURREY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I now hand you the last of these, Commission Exhibit No. 1017, and ask you first to read the inscription and then examine the photograph.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1017 for identification.)

Mr. SURREY. Yes, sir; these are substantially correct.

Mr. JENNER. As of today, as well as as of April 10, 1963?

Mr. SURREY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, Mr. Chief Justice, I offer in evidence the various exhibits which we have identified in the record with the exhibit numbers, and ask that the exhibits take the exhibit numbers I recited in each instance as to each exhibit, being Exhibits Nos. 996 through 1000 and 1002 through 1017.

The CHAIRMAN. They may all be admitted under those numbers.

(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 996 through 1000 and 1002 through 1017 were received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. That includes, Mr. Chief Justice, the diagrams which the witness has prepared for us.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. As I reported to you, Mr. Chief Justice, the file on the Walker incident reached us about 20 minutes before we opened this morning. I think I have covered everything. Could I have the privilege of 5 minutes to take a look?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I will do it very quickly.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Who is Mr. Coleman? Do you know a man by that name?

Mr. SURREY. Not personally.

Mr. JENNER. Walker Kirk Coleman.

Mr. SURREY. As I just read on the back of your exhibit, he is the boy that reported seeing several automobiles at the time of the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. That is immaterial to this issue.

You have never seen either of the two men you have mentioned before or since the occasion you saw that automobile with the two men in it on the evening of April 8, 1963?

Mr. SURREY. Not to my knowledge. I never was very close to them.

Mr. JENNER. Were you able to--what kind of an automobile was it, do you know?

Mr. SURREY. It was a Ford, a new Ford at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Sedan?

Mr. SURREY. Four-door sedan.

Mr. JENNER. And it was new?

Mr. SURREY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. To your knowledge, have you ever seen that automobile before or since?

Mr. SURREY. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What color was it, if you noticed?

Mr. SURREY. It was either a dark brown or a maroon.

Mr. JENNER. You followed it awhile and then gave up the chase?

Mr. SURREY. That is correct. Actually, they made a turn which--I am familiar with downtown Dallas--and they made a turn which would indicate they were doubling back or not going in a straight direction. And I thought perhaps I had been spotted in my convertible. So I left them there.

Mr. JENNER. I will close, Mr. Chief Justice, by asking the witness--was the Mormon church in session? Had there been----

Mr. SURREY. There had been services.

Mr. JENNER. The evening of April 10?

Mr. SURREY. They were still dispersing.

Mr. JENNER. When you arrived at approximately 9:30 in the evening of April 10, were people still leaving the Mormon church?

Mr. SURREY. Yes; they were.

Mr. JENNER. I have no more questions.

The CHAIRMAN. That will be all, Mr. Surrey. You may be excused now.

The Commission is adjourned.

(Whereupon, at 12:20 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Thursday, June 18, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF JAMES J. ROWLEY AND ROBERT CARSWELL

The President's Commission met at 9 a.m., on June 18, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES J. ROWLEY

(Members present at this point: Chief Justice Earl Warren.)

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order.

Chief, it is our procedure to read a little statement as to the purpose of the meeting, for the benefit of the witness.

Chief Rowley will be asked to testify with respect to the protective measures taken by the Secret Service in Dallas, changes in such measures made as a result of the Dallas experience, and with regard to the investigation of the assassination and any information he may have respecting the assassination of the President.

Would you raise your right hand and be sworn?

You solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ROWLEY. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please. Mr. Rankin will conduct the examination.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, before starting the examination, I would like to make a brief statement for your benefit and for the benefit of the Commission, of the problems that are probably going to develop in this area with regard to the security of the country, and a suggestion about how we might handle them as we proceed with the witness.

I have suggested to Chief Rowley that as he moves along in his testimony he might have various matters that he would think should not be on the record because of the security of the country, and if he would just suggest that, when he came to that point, and say specifically that it did involve the security of the country, then we would proceed to go off the record, if it was satisfactory to the Commission, and consider those questions off the record. And then return to the record as soon as we had completed those security matters.

Would that be satisfactory?

The CHAIRMAN. I think that is an appropriate way to proceed.

Mr. RANKIN. Chief Rowley, will you state your name and address for the record, please?

Mr. ROWLEY. James J. Rowley, 3501 Rittenhouse Street NW., Washington, D.C.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have an official position with the Government?

Mr. ROWLEY. I have, as Chief of the U.S. Secret Service.

Mr. RANKIN. How long have you occupied that position?

Mr. ROWLEY. Since September 1, 1961.

Mr. RANKIN. What is the nature of the duties of that position?

Mr. ROWLEY. The nature of the duties is the general overall supervision of the activities of the Secret Service.

Mr. RANKIN. And, in a general way, what is the official responsibility under the statutes of the United States of the Secret Service?

Mr. ROWLEY. Well, we are responsible under title 18, section 3056, to investigate all violations that affect the currency, securities, and coinage of the United States. That involves Government bonds, Government checks, and such other functions and duties as are authorized by law, subject to the direction of the Secretary of the Treasury.

In addition, we have the responsibility of the protection of the President, members of his immediate family, the Vice President, President-elect, Vice President-elect, and the former President for a reasonable period of time as he leaves office.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you please tell us what experience you had with the Secret Service prior to the time that you became chief.

Mr. ROWLEY. I was in charge of the White House detail from 1946 to 1961.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, will you tell us briefly the training that you had in regard to Government Service?

Mr. ROWLEY. I first entered the Government as a member of the FBI in 1937, and spent a year with the FBI, after which I went back to New York for a period of 9 months. I entered the Secret Service on September 12, 1938. I spent time in criminal investigation in the New York City office, and the Utica office of Secret Service and in April of 1939, I was assigned to Washington, eventually to the White House detail.

(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.)

Mr. ROWLEY. I served as a member of the White House detail, as an agent on a shift, as an assistant agent in charge, agent in charge of the shift, and advance man, in preparing for Presidential visits, both domestically and abroad.

Mr. RANKIN. What educational training did you have?

Mr. ROWLEY. I had 2 years of college toward a B.S., then I was graduated from law school, and secured a master's degree in law.

Mr. RANKIN. Was one of the duties of your position as chief of the Service to have general supervision over the trip of President Kennedy and Vice President Johnson to Dallas around November 22, 1963?

Mr. ROWLEY. Well, that would be part of my job--the general supervision of the trip. The actual direct supervision would have been under the jurisdiction of Mr. Behn, who was in charge of the White House detail.

Mr. RANKIN. Could you describe briefly the nature of Mr. Behn's responsibilities in that work?

Mr. ROWLEY. Well, it would have been, as mine was in the period I was there, that he was responsible for developing all arrangements with the members of the White House staff, designating the members of the detail to develop advance work, assigning agents to the various shifts, directing their training as it applied to the White House detail, and participating in any event that he thought would be necessary in connection with his work at the White House.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you become familiar with what did happen on that trip, in your position as chief?

Mr. ROWLEY. Yes; I was first informed while addressing a graduating class of our Secret Service school on that day. I was summoned by Mr. Behn to the White House, at which time he told me that the President had been shot. He was then at the hospital, and subsequently we were notified that the President had died; that the Vice President would take the oath of office in the airplane at Love Field.

In the meantime, I asked my deputy, who was in his office while I was at the White House, to arrange with the Immigration Service to close the border, Texas being in close proximity to the border. There might have been a conspiracy or something, we didn't want to take any chances. And then I immediately dispatched an inspector from my staff to the Capitol to protect the Speaker, and directed the other activities as we got the information from Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn in connection with the trip when the assassination occurred that certain of the Secret Service agents had been in the press club and what is called the Cellar, at Fort Worth, the night before?

Mr. ROWLEY. Well, that came to my attention through a broadcast that Mr. Pearson made, that the agents were inebriated the night before at the Fort Worth Press Club. I immediately dispatched Inspector McCann to Fort Worth to investigate the report, and to interview the agents.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you learn?

Mr. ROWLEY. I learned that there were nine agents involved at the Press Club. And I might say this--the agents on duty throughout that day had no opportunity to eat. When they arrived at Fort Worth, they were informed that there was a buffet to be served at the Fort Worth Club. This is what I ascertained in personal interviews. Upon going over there, they learned there was no buffet, and some of them stayed for a drink. Three, I think, had one Scotch, and others had two or three beers. They were in and out--from the time they arrived, I would say roughly around 12:30, until the place closed at 2 o'clock.

Now, after that some of them went to the Cellar. This is a place that does not serve alcoholic beverages. They went there primarily, I think, out of curiosity, because this was some kind of a beatnik place where someone gets up and recites, or plays the guitar.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn whether or not there were any violations of the regulations of the Secret Service by these men?

Mr. ROWLEY. Yes; there was a violation. At that time there was a section in our manual in effect that said that during----

Mr. RANKIN. Will you give us first the number?

Mr. ROWLEY. Section 10.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that chapter 1, page 7?

Mr. ROWLEY. Chapter 1, page 7; yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, will you tell the Commission about what the regulation was?

Mr. ROWLEY. "The use of liquor. Employees are strictly enjoined to refrain from the use of intoxicating liquor during the hours they are officially employed at their post of duty or when they may reasonably expect that they may be called upon to perform an official duty."

The one that applies here--"However, all members of the White House detail and special agents cooperating with them on presidential and similar protective assignments are considered to be subject to call for official duty at any time while in travel status. Therefore, the use of intoxicating liquor of any kind, including beer and wine, by members of the White House detail and special agents cooperating with them or by special agents on similar assignments, while they are in a travel status, is prohibited."

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell the Commission how many men were involved in these trips to the Press Club and the Cellar, where these things were done?

Mr. ROWLEY. There were 9 men involved at the Press Club, and there were 10 men involved at the Cellar.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, how many men, of those 10 men, were in the Presidential motorcade on the day of the assassination?

Mr. ROWLEY. Four--four men were in the followup car.

The CHAIRMAN. Who were they?

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know their names?

Mr. ROWLEY. Yes; Landis, Hill, Ready, and Bennett.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any investigation to determine whether or not their violation of the Secret Service regulations had anything to do with the assassination of the President?

Mr. ROWLEY. Yes. They performed their duties from the time they departed in the followup car from Love Field until the point of the tragedy in a most satisfactory manner. There was nothing deficient in their actions or their alertness. They went through the heaviest part of downtown Dallas, through the crowds, and performed in an exemplary manner.

Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that?

Mr. ROWLEY. From the reports that I got from their superiors.

Mr. RANKIN. In the work that you did with the White House detail before you became Chief of the Secret Service, did you know the various responsibilities of the members of the White House detail?

Mr. ROWLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever participate in such motorcades yourself?

Mr. ROWLEY. I have; yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. How much?

Mr. ROWLEY. Well, I have participated, in rough numbers, over a period of 22 years--roughly, maybe, a thousand or more.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you briefly describe the functions of the Secret Service agents in connection with the President's car?

The CHAIRMAN. Have you finished this other matter?

Mr. RANKIN. No; I just wanted to----

The CHAIRMAN. All right. Go right ahead.

Mr. ROWLEY. When the President's car leaves the airport or a railroad station or any other location, the agents accompany him to the car and stand to the right and left, in the same order as their designated positions on the followup car, and screen him. And then the car moves out, slowly, because the rest of the cars have to have an opportunity to follow in the motorcade, so that none lingers behind, or is left behind. And then the agent in the lead car determines that the motorcade is intact and is moving, then he steps up his speed, which is a cue to the Presidential driver to step up his speed, and then they go at a speed consistent with the crowd that is there, and so forth.

Now, upon leaving the airport, if there is a huge crowd there, the men are still on the ground running on the right and left side of the President, both rear and front of the vehicle. After they get out of the crowd, then the men in the front beside the Presidential vehicle drop back and take their positions in the followup car.

This is so that they are not in the way of the men running on the right and left rear. They move back last and have a clear opportunity to jump onboard the followup car in the event the speed of the motorcade is stepped up.

When the motorcade comes to intersections or turns which are always vulnerable points, in that if you make a right turn, that is the closest point for someone to come out, the agents on the right side before reaching that point, will jump off, to be available alongside the President's car in the event someone darts out with some malicious plan.

There have also been times when, innocently, ladies and young people will come out to throw a bouquet of flowers. And then if there is a crowd that is sparse, they return to their position in the followup car.

Now, when they come into a big crowd, they take it on foot, and at a little jog, if necessary.

In some instances, if the crowd continues for a prolonged distance, the agents work together. In other words, there are rear steps on the right and left rear of the Presidential car with handrails. These have two purposes. One, for agents to ride on and to screen the President from anything from above; the second, in a situation like this, to keep an additional man available in case of trouble, and also to alternate with the men to the right rear of the President, who are jogging along warding off the crowd.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, what positions did the four men that you referred to that were involved in the press club and the Cellar matter occupy on the day of the assassination?

Mr. ROWLEY. Well, Mr. Ready occupied the right front, Mr. Landis to his rear----

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by right front?

Mr. ROWLEY. Right front running board position of the followup car. It was his responsibility or duty to jump off in crowds and to take the position at the right rear of the President's car.

Mr. Landis, if necessary, to jump off if the occasion demanded and take the right front of the President's car.

Mr. Hill was on the left front running board of the followup car, and his responsibility was at the rear of the President's car. His position was assigned there because he was in charge of the First Lady's detail, and she was seated on the left side.

And Mr. McIntyre was to his rear on the left running board. So his assignment would have been up to the left front of the President's car. Mr. Bennett was in the rear seat of the followup car.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, how can you tell that the fact that they were out as they were the night before and violated the regulations, had nothing to do with the assassination?

Mr. ROWLEY. Well, based on the reports of my investigating agents and the facts as to how they performed at the time of the tragedy. Mr. Hill, who was on the left side, responded immediately--as he looked toward the Presidential car, being on the left side, he scanned from left to right, and when he saw there was something happening to the President following a noise, he immediately jumped from his position to get aboard from his side.

Mr. Ready scanned to the right so he was looking away from the President, because he was looking around from the right side. As a consequence, he wasn't aware of what was happening in the front. The car was also going on a turn at that time.

Mr. RANKIN. What about the other two?

Mr. ROWLEY. The other two were watching--they reacted normally--the man on the left side looked to his left rear, and the man, Landis, looked to his right rear.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you done anything to discipline these men for violation of the regulations of the Secret Service?

Mr. ROWLEY. Well, I did consider what type of punishment would be provided.

Then I also considered the fact that these men in no way had--their conduct had no bearing on the assassination. And, therefore, I thought that in the light of history, to place a stigma on them by punishing them at that time, from which inevitably the public would conclude that they were responsible for the assassination of the President--I didn't think this was fair, and that they did not deserve that, with their family and children.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. DULLES. May I ask one question there?

You described the assignment of the four men with respect to the followup car and the President's car. Do they have different assignments with regard to watching what is happening around them, or does that depend on the circumstances in which they are?

Mr. ROWLEY. Both. When they start off they have a certain area that they have to watch. Like the man in the right front would naturally watch slightly to the right and in front of him. The fellow on the side, behind him, will watch to the right and rear. In other words, as they are going by a building, he should scan the building. In the meantime, he picks up where the man in the front has finished. In other words, the scan of the man in the front will cover the building to his front and side; the fellow behind will scan alongside from rear to forward. Their scanning joins. This is the way they are accustomed to doing it.

Mr. DULLES. Who would cover straight ahead?

Mr. ROWLEY. The man in the front seat has that responsibility.

Mr. RANKIN. Chief Rowley, how do you construe subparagraph (c) of your regulation 10 regarding the use of alcoholic liquors?

The CHAIRMAN. Will you read it for the record?

Mr. RANKIN. Will you kindly read it?

Mr. ROWLEY. "Violation or slight disregard of the above paragraphs or the excessive or improper use of intoxicating liquor at any time will be cause for removal from the service. In interpreting the words 'excessive' and 'improper,' slight evidence tending to indicate unusual or questionable conduct will be considered proof that the use of liquor has been improper or excessive. Association with others who drink to excess will be considered as an indication of using more than a moderate amount of liquor. The excuse that liquor was used for medicinal purposes will not be accepted."

Mr. RANKIN. How do you construe and apply that?

Mr. ROWLEY. Well, in this instance, it was wrong.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, were these men under this regulation considered to be on travel status, so that they should not be using intoxicating liquor?

Mr. ROWLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. And there is no question about that in your mind?

Mr. ROWLEY. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Has anything been done to reprimand and cause them to realize that this is a violation of your regulations?

Mr. ROWLEY. They were interviewed by the inspector at the time. The seriousness of the matter was impressed upon them. And I think they recognize the seriousness of their acts.

The men we recruit are men that are college graduates and mature, and we screen them very carefully, particularly before we assign them to the White House detail. They know and we know that they are in a fishbowl 24 hours a day, and that, therefore, their conduct is always subject to scrutiny, and so forth, and that they are responsible individuals. Their records have indicated that they have been performing in a high degree. They have worked endless hours of overtime. They are dedicated. And if they were not, they would not be on the detail.

They realize the seriousness of the violation, and I went over it with my special agent in charge. He understands it. And I am quite sure that they all understand it at this time.

Mr. RANKIN. I would like to have you examine Commission Exhibit No. 1018, Chief Rowley, and see if that is the regulation of the Secret Service that you have been referring to.

Mr. ROWLEY. Yes; that is what I have been reading here, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, I would like to offer as a part of the record the regulation, Commission Exhibit No. 1018.

The CHAIRMAN. It may he admitted.

(The document was marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 1018, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Chief Rowley, have you had any other complaints similar to this in regard to the conduct of the Secret Service agents on the Presidential or White House detail?

Mr. ROWLEY. We had one in the last month. We had charges leveled at us by an agent of the Secret Service----

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us about that?

Mr. ROWLEY. Who is currently under indictment, and who will be brought to trial on criminal charges on the 29th of June. And, for that reason, while I have no reluctance to discuss it, I think we should go off the record, because I don't want to in any way prejudice the case.