Chapter XVII: Front Matter (17)

As I went in, and this is roughly 6:30, 7 at night--I said we ate dinner at home, I believe the couple were out in the car with my wife were waiting for me to go to dinner with them.

Mr. DULLES. Did you go down to the airfield when President Johnson left?

Mr. WADE. No, sir; no, sir.

Mr. DULLES. You did not.

Mr. WADE. I didn't go anywhere but to my office, then to Parkland Hospital and then home, and then I was there a while and then I went by the police station, mostly to see how they were coming along. Papers were announcing, the radios, I mean, were announcing, television, that they had a suspect and was even telling them what some of the evidence was against him.

Mr. RANKIN. About what time was this at the police station?

Mr. WADE. I would say around 7 o'clock. This can vary 30 minutes either way.

Mr. RANKIN. Who did you see there?

Mr. WADE. Chief Curry.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk to him?

Mr. WADE. I talked to him.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to him and what did he say to you?

Mr. WADE. Well, it is hard to remember. I know the first thing he did was pull out a memorandum that you all were interested in, signed by Jack Revill, and showed it to me and I read it, and said, "What do you think about that?"

And I said----

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you would identify this for the record?

Mr. WADE. You can get it. Let me tell you the story. I read that thing there hurriedly and I remember it mentioned that Agent Hosty had talked to Revill----

Senator COOPER. Who was that?

Mr. WADE. Hosty.

Senator COOPER. Can you identify him as to what he does?

Mr. WADE. He is a special agent of the FBI, but I don't think I would know him if he walked in here actually.

But that is his business. He showed me that, and I read it. Now, as far as identifying it, I have seen--I have a copy of it in my files.

You see, when they turned the records over to me and I read it and looked it over and to the best of my knowledge was the same memorandum he showed me, although all I did was glance at it and it said generally they knew something about him and knew he was in town or something like that.

Senator COOPER. Who said that?

Mr. WADE. This memorandum said that.

Senator COOPER. Who is reported to be quoting the memorandum?

Mr. WADE. Special Agent Hosty. Now, I have since looked at the memorandum. So far as I know it is the same memorandum, but like I say I read it there and I don't know whether it is the--I don't know whether it said word for word to be the same thing but it appears to me to my best knowledge to be the same memorandum.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when you first got the memorandum in your files that you are referring to?

Mr. WADE. It was a month later. You see the police gave me a record of everything on the Ruby case, I would say some time about Christmas.

Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Commission Exhibit No. 709 and ask you if that is the memorandum you just referred to?

Mr. WADE. Yes; to the best of my knowledge that is the memorandum he showed me there at 7 p.m. on the 22d day of November 1963.

Jack Revill incidentally, you all have talked with him, but he is one of the brightest, to my mind, of the young Dallas police officers.

As a matter of fact, when we got into the Ruby trial, I asked that they assign Jack Revill to assist us in the investigation and he assisted with picking of the jury and getting the witnesses all through the Ruby trial.

Mr. RANKIN. Would your records show when you received a copy of this document, Commission Exhibit No. 709?

Mr. WADE. Well, I am sure it would. It would be the day--you can trace it back to when the newspapers said he had turned all the files over to me and it was around Christmas as I recall, and I believe actually it was after Christmas, but probably 30 days, but you see they turned over a file that thick to me, I imagine. It was of all of that, the same thing they turned over to you, everything the police had on Jack Ruby.

Mr. RANKIN. You put a receipt stamp on anything like that?

Mr. WADE. I don't think it will show a date or anything like that on it because they just hauled it in there and laid it on my desk. But this was--it is in our files, and I am rather sure it is the same time. You all got the same thing.

Mr. RANKIN. We didn't receive anything like that until the time that Chief Curry came to testify, just for your information.

Mr. WADE. Well, I didn't know that, but now on this, this is the Ruby matter----

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there?

Mr. WADE. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Just to refresh my recollection of your testimony, did you see this that afternoon around 5 or 6 o'clock?

Mr. WADE. Around 7 o'clock I would say it was on Chief Curry's desk.

Mr. DULLES. Of the 22d?

Mr. WADE. Of the 22d.

Senator COOPER. I don't want to interrupt too much, but looking at this exhibit, I note it is written, you have seen this Commission, Commission Exhibit No. 709 signed by Jack Revill?

Mr. WADE. Yes; let me see it; yes.

Senator COOPER. Is your recollection, was the memorandum that was shown to you by--first, who did show you the memorandum on the 22d?

Mr. WADE. Chief Curry of the Dallas police.

Senator COOPER. Was the memorandum shown to you on the 22d by Chief Curry in this same form?

Mr. WADE. To the best of my knowledge that was it now.

Now, like I said I read this memorandum, and I read the memorandum, and asked the chief what he was going to do with it and he said, "I don't know."

And then the next morning I heard on television Chief Curry, I don't know whether I heard him or not, he made some kind of statement concerning this memorandum on television, and then later came back and said that wasn't to his personal knowledge, and I think that was--he said that what he said about it he retracted it to some extent but I guess you all have got records of those television broadcasts or at least can get them.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember whether he said just what was in this Exhibit No. 709 or something less than that or more or what?

Mr. WADE. I don't remember. You see, things were moving fast, and it is hard, there are so many things going on. I will go on to my story.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. WADE. I will answer anything, of course.

Mr. RANKIN. You can tell us the rest that you said to Chief Curry and he said to you at that time, first.

Mr. WADE. I asked him how the case was coming along and as a practical matter he didn't know. You probably have run into this, but there is really a lack of communication between the chief's office and the captain of detective's office there in Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. You found that to be true.

Mr. WADE. For every year I have been in the office down there. And I assume you have taken their depositions. I don't know what the relations--the relations are better between Curry and Fritz than between Hanson and Fritz, who was his predecessor. But Fritz runs a kind of a one-man operation there where nobody else knows what he is doing. Even me, for instance, he is reluctant to tell me, either, but I don't mean that disparagingly. I will say Captain Fritz is about as good a man at solving a crime as I ever saw, to find out who did it but he is poorest in the getting evidence that I know, and I am more interested in getting evidence, and there is where our major conflict comes in.

I talked to him a minute there and I don't believe I talked to Captain Fritz. One of my assistants was in Fritz's office. I believe I did walk down the hall and talk briefly, and they had filed, they had filed on Oswald for killing Tippit.

Mr. DULLES. Which assistant was that?

Mr. WADE. Bill Alexander. There was another one of--another man there, Jim Allen, who was my former first assistant who is practicing law there in Dallas and frankly I was a little surprised of seeing him there, he is a real capable boy but he was there in homicide with Captain Fritz. They were good friends.

And I know there is no question about his intentions and everything was good, but he was just a lawyer there, but he had tried many death penalty cases with Fritz--of Fritz's cases.

But he was there. Your FBI was there, your Secret Service were there in the homicide.

Mr. RANKIN. Who from the FBI, do you recall?

Mr. WADE. Well, I saw Vince Drain, a special agent that I knew, and Jim Bookhout, I believe, and there was Mr. Kelley and Mr. Sorrels--Inspector Kelley of the Secret Service, Sorrels, Forest Sorrels.

I might tell you that also, to give you a proper perspective on this thing, there were probably 300 people then out in that hall.

You could hardly walk down the hall. You just had to fight your way down through the hall, through the press up there.

Mr. RANKIN. Who were they?

Mr. WADE. The television and newsmen. I say 300, that was all that could get into that hall and to get into homicide it was a strain to get the door open hard enough to get into the office.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to Chief Curry about that?

Mr. WADE. No, sir; I probably mentioned it but I assume you want--whether I meant he ought to clean them out or not. I didn't tell him he should or shouldn't because I have absolutely no control over the police. They are a separate entity. They have a municipality, and they work under a city manager.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to Chief Curry about what should be told the press about investigation, how it was progressing or anything of that kind?

Mr. WADE. Yes; I think that is the brief conversation, that is the last I talked to Curry that night. I may have talked to--but that is all I recall. I left thereafter, and went on out to dinner.

Mr. RANKIN. About what time did you leave?

Mr. WADE. 7, 7:30, something like that. I got home, say, 9:30 or 10, after eating dinner, and I believe I talked to the U.S. attorney or at least I saw it come on the radio that they are going to file on Oswald as part of an international conspiracy in murdering the U.S. President, and I think I talked to Barefoot Sanders. He called me or I called him.

Mr. RANKIN. I wanted to get for the record, Mr. Wade, who would be trying to file like that.

Mr. WADE. I don't know. All I know it wasn't me. It was told to me at one time that the justice of the peace said something about it and another one, one of my assistants, Alexander had said something about it and I have talked to both of them since and both of them deny so I don't know who suggested it or anything but it was on the radio and I think on television.

I know I heard it and I am not sure where.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us whether it was from your office or from a Federal office that such an idea was developing as far as you know?

Mr. WADE. Well, on that score it doesn't make any sense at all to me because there is no such crime in Texas, being part of an international conspiracy, it is just murder with malice in Texas, and if you allege anything else in an indictment you have to prove it and it is all surplusage in an indictment to allege anything, whether a man is a John Bircher or a Communist or anything, if you allege it you have to prove it.

So, when I heard it I went down to the police station and took the charge on him, just a case of simple murder.

Mr. DULLES. Is that of Tippit or of the President?

Mr. WADE. No; of the President, and the radio announced Johnston was down there, and Alexander, and of course other things, and so I saw immediately that if somebody was going to take a complaint that he is part of an international conspiracy it had to be a publicity deal rather--somebody was interested in something other than the law because there is no such charge in Texas as part of--I don't care what you belong to, you don't have to allege that in an indictment.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by the radio saying that Johnson was there? Do you mean President Johnson?

Mr. WADE. No; that is the justice of the peace whose name is Johnston.

Mr. RANKIN. I see.

Mr. WADE. Yes; Justice of the Peace David L. Johnston was the justice of the peace there.

So, I went down there not knowing--also at that time I had a lengthy conversation with Captain Fritz and with Jim Alexander who was in the office, Bill Alexander, Bookhout because another reason I thought maybe they were going to want to file without the evidence, and then that put everything on me, you know.

If they didn't have the evidence and they said, "We file on him, we have got the assassin" I was afraid somebody might take the complaint and I went down to be sure they had some evidence on him.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you told us all that you said to the U.S. attorney when you talked to him at that time?

Mr. WADE. So far as I know. I know that concerned that point, you know.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, did he say anything to you about that point?

Mr. WADE. Well, I think he asked me was that--I don't think Barefoot was real conversant, I guess is the word with what the law is in a murder charge.

I told him that it had no place in it and he said he had heard it on the radio and didn't know whether it would be--thought it might because some--if it was not necessary, he did not think it ought to be done, something to that effect so I went down there to be sure they didn't.

I went over the evidence which they--when I saw the evidence, it was the evidence as told to me by Captain Fritz.

Mr. RANKIN. This conversation you have described you had when Jim Alexander was there and the others?

Mr. WADE. Yes; I first asked Jim Allen, a man whom I have a lot of confidence in, do they have a case and he said it looks like a case, you can try.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that the case about the assassination?

Mr. WADE. Yes; we are talking entirely about the assassination.

On the Tippit thing, I didn't take the charge on that and I think they had some witnesses who had identified him there at the scene, but I was more worried about the assassination of them filing on somebody that we couldn't prove was guilty.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the evidence that they did have at that time with Captain Fritz?

Mr. WADE. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what evidence you recall?

Mr. WADE. I have made no notes but roughly he gave the story about him bringing the gun to work, saying it was window rods from the neighbor, someone who had brought him to work. He also said there were three employees of the company that left him on the sixth floor. He told about, the part about, the young officer running in there right after the assassination and Oswald leaving after the manager said that he was employed there. Told about his arrest and said that there was a scuffle there, and that he tried to shoot the officer.

I don't know--I think I am giving you all this because I think a little of it may vary from the facts but all I know is what Fritz told me.

He said the Dallas police had found a palmprint on the underside of the gun of Oswald. At that time, the FBI was standing by to fly the gun to the laboratory here in Washington which incidentally, they didn't find, but I assume the Commission has interviewed Senator--not Senator--Day, the fingerprint man of the Dallas police but I have learned since that he probably can't identify the palmprint under there but at that time they told me they had one on it.

They said they had a palmprint on the wrapping paper, and on the box, I believe there by the scene. They did at least put Oswald there at the scene.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you clarify the palmprint that you are referring to on the rifle?

Was it on the underside of the rifle, was it between the rifle and the stock or where was it as you recall?

Mr. WADE. Specifically, I couldn't say because--but he said they had a palmprint or a fingerprint of Oswald on the underside of the rifle and I don't know whether it was on the trigger guard or where it was but I knew that was important, I mean, to put the gun in his possession.

I thought we had that all the time when I took the complaint on the thing.

Let me see what else they had that night. Well, they had a lot of the things they found in his possession. They had the map, you know, that marked the route of the parade. They had statements from the bus driver and the taxicab driver that hauled him somewhere.

I think they varied a little as to where they picked him up but generally they had some type of statement from them.

That is generally what they gave me now.

Mr. RANKIN. That is all you recall as of that time?

Mr. WADE. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you give any report to the press then about----

Mr. WADE. No; I will tell you what happened then.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. WADE. As we walked out of the thing they started yelling, I started home, and they started yelling they wanted to see Oswald, the press.

And Perry said that he had put him in the showup room downstairs. Of course, they were yelling all over the world they wanted a picture of Oswald. And I don't know the mob and everybody ended up in the showup room. It is three floors below there.

Mr. RANKIN. Still Friday night?

Mr. WADE. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. About what time?

Mr. WADE. I would say around midnight roughly. It would--it could be either way an hour because I went down there around 11 o'clock, 10:30 or 11, some roughly and I don't know what the time element was but I would say around midnight.

So, they started interviewing Fritz and Curry, and I started to leave and Fritz said, "Well, we will get--" either Fritz or Curry said, "We will show him up down there," he said, "This is Mr. Wade, the district attorney."

He kind of introduced me to the press. I didn't say anything at that time but down in the basement they started to put Oswald--I went down there with them. They started to put Oswald in the lineup down there.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe that briefly to the Commission?

Mr. WADE. Well, I don't know whether you have seen--it is a room larger than this and you have a glass here on this side. Behind that glass they have a place out here where they walk prisoners in through there and you can see through this side but you can't see through that side. I think that is the way it is set up.

Senator COOPER. You mean observers can see?

Mr. WADE. Observers can see, but the defendants or suspects can't see through or at least can't identify.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember who else besides Lee Harvey Oswald was in the showup?

Mr. WADE. No; I am just telling you about the showup room. Now, they had had showups on him but I wasn't there at any of those, but this was, the purpose of this, was to let the press see Oswald, if I understand it.

And the police were yelling, "Everybody wants to see him, wants a picture of him." They started in the screened-in portion and a howl went up that you can't take a picture through that screen. Then they had a conference with, among some of them, and the next thing I knew I was just sitting there upon a little, I guess, elevated, you might say a speaker's stand, although there were 300 people in the room, you couldn't even actually get out, you know.

Mr. RANKIN. Did they ask you whether they should do this?

Mr. WADE. I don't think I said yea or nay to the thing so far as I know, because it was--and I actually didn't know what they were doing until, the next thing I knew they said they were going to have to bring him in there.

Well, I think I did say, "You'd better get some officers in here or something for some protection on him."

I thought a little about, and I got a little worried at that stage.

So about 12 officers came in and they were standing around Oswald, and at this time I looked out in the audience and saw a man out there, later, who turned out to be Jack Ruby. He was there at that scene.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you happen to pick him out?

Mr. WADE. Well, I don't know. He had--I had seen the fellow somewhere before, but I didn't know his name, but he had a pad, and the reason I remember him mostly----

Mr. RANKIN. You mean a scratch pad?

Mr. WADE. He had some kind of scratch pad. The reason I mentioned him mostly, I will get into him in a minute and tell you everything about him. He was out there about 1 minute, I would say, and they took pictures and everything else and Oswald was here and the cameras were in a ring around him, and as they left----

Mr. RANKIN. Excuse me. Where was Ruby from where you told us where Oswald was?

Mr. WADE. Well, he was, I would say, about 12 feet. I am giving a rough----

Mr. RANKIN. When you saw him----

Mr. WADE. We went all through this at the trial, and it varied on where Ruby was, but when I saw him he was about four rows back in the aisle seat, standing up in the seat.

Mr. RANKIN. Were there press men around him?

Mr. WADE. All kinds of press men around him, and also press men 10 deep between him and Oswald.

Now, one of their--you mentioned the gun awhile ago--one of their defenses in the trial was if he had a gun, he had a gun there, he could have killed him if he wanted to. It is the first I heard him say that he didn't have a gun that you mentioned awhile ago. So when I got--when they got through, they started asking him questions, the press.

Senator COOPER. Wait a minute. How close were the nearest people in the audience to Oswald?

Mr. WADE. I would say they were that far from him.

Senator COOPER. How far is that?

Mr. WADE. Three feet.

Senator COOPER. You mean some of the reporters and photographers were within 3 feet of him?

Mr. WADE. They were on the ground, they were on the ground, and they were standing on top of each other, and on top of tables, and I assume in that room there were 250 people. It was just a mob scene.

Senator COOPER. I believe I have seen the room. Isn't it correct that at the end where the showup is held that is an elevated platform?

Mr. WADE. There is a platform up there where the microphone is.

Senator COOPER. Was he standing up on the platform?

Mr. WADE. No, he was not at the platform.

Senator COOPER. Was he on the floor level?

Mr. WADE. He was in the floor level in the middle. If I understand, that was the first or second time I had ever been in the room.

Senator COOPER. Were there people around him, surrounding him?

Mr. WADE. People were on the floor in front of those desks.

Senator COOPER. But I mean, were they, were people on all sides of him?

Mr. WADE. No; they were all in front of him. They were all in front of him, and you had a ring of policemen behind him, policemen on all sides of him. It was just the front where they were, and that is the way I recall it, but I knew they had a line of policemen behind him, and the place was full of policemen, because they went up and it turns out later they got all the police who were on duty that night. They were plain clothes police, most of them, maybe they had a uniform or two, a few of them.

So they started----

Senator COOPER. Excuse me one moment.

Mr. WADE. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Can I make a statement? I will have to go to my office for a few minutes. I hope to return in about 20 minutes, and I will ask Mr. Dulles to preside in my place, and I will return.

Mr. WADE. Thank you, sir.

(At this point, Senator Cooper withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. DULLES. Proceed.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you proceed?

Mr. WADE. Yes, sir; so they said, "Have you filed on him?" At that stage, started yelling has he been filed on, and I said yes, and filed on for murder with malice, and they asked Judge Johnston, is there--they asked him something.

Then they started asking me questions everywhere, from all angles.

Mr. RANKIN. Under your practice, what do you mean by file on him? Is that something different than an arraignment?

Mr. WADE. Well, of course, it is according to the terminology and what you mean by arraignment. In Texas the only arraignment is when you get ready to try him. Like we arraigned Ruby just before we started putting on evidence. That is the only arraignment we have, actually.

Mr. RANKIN. I see. You don't bring him before a magistrate?

Mr. WADE. Well, that is called--you can have an examining trial before the magistrate to see whether it is a bailable matter. At that time, I don't believe he had been brought before the magistrate, because I told David Johnston as we left there, I said, "You ought to go up before the jail and have him brought before you and advise him of his rights and his right to counsel and this and that," which, so far as I know, he did.

But at that meeting you had two attorneys from American Civil Liberties Union.

Mr. RANKIN. Which meeting?

Mr. WADE. That Friday night meeting, or Friday night showup we had better call it, midnight on Friday night. I believe it was Greer Ragio and Professor Webster from SMU. I saw them there in the hall, and Chief Curry told me that they had been given an opportunity or had talked with Oswald. I am not sure. I was under the impression that they had talked with them but, of course, I didn't see them talking with him.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk to them about it?

Mr. WADE. Yes; I told them that he is entitled to counsel, that is what they are interested in on the counsel situation, and anybody, either them or anybody else could see him that wanted to.

Mr. RANKIN. What did they say then?

Mr. WADE. Mr. Rankin, I will tell you what, there was so much going on I don't remember exactly. The only thing was I got the impression they had already talked with them somewhere, but I don't know whether they told me or the chief told me or what. Like I say, it was a mob scene there, practically, and they were standing in the door when I--they were in the meeting there.

Let me get a little further and go back to--I don't know whether I answered your question and if I don't it is because I can't, because I don't know--I will tell you what happened the next day.

Mr. RANKIN. Let's finish with the showup now.

Mr. WADE. Yes. They asked a bunch of questions there. I think if you get a record of my interview that you will find that any of the evidence----

Mr. DULLES. Which interview is that?

Mr. WADE. With the press, midnight, radio, television, and everything else. I think if you will get a copy of that you will find they asked me lots of questions about fingerprints and evidence. I refused to answer them because I said it was evidence in the case. The only thing that I told them that you might get the impression was evidence but is really not evidence, I told them that the man's wife said the man had a gun or something to that effect. The reason, maybe good or bad, but that isn't admissible in Texas. You see a wife can't testify. It is not evidence, but it is evidence but it is inadmissible evidence actually is what it was. So I think if you find anything in that interview that deals with the evidence you are going to feel that it dealt only with that piece of testimony of Marina Oswald, which someone had told me she said about the gun was missing from the house, which I think later was corroborated.

Mr. RANKIN. At that time, had you filed on the assassination?

Mr. WADE. Yes, sir; we had filed upstairs prior to this. He had been filed on for murder with malice.

Mr. RANKIN. But he hadn't been brought before the justice of the peace or magistrate yet on that complaint, had he?

Mr. WADE. The justice of the peace was there in the office and took it in the homicide. Oswald was in homicide, also, but he is in a separate office.

Like I told you, I never did see Oswald except in that lineup downstairs. That was the first time I had seen him.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that when you told the justice of the peace that he ought to have him before him to tell him his rights and so forth?

Mr. WADE. Yes; it was some time during that hour, this went on for about an hour down there, everything.

Well, during that interview somebody said, and the thing--Oswald belonged to, was he a Communist, something generally to that effect.

Mr. RANKIN. They asked you that?

Mr. WADE. I was asked that. And I said, well, now, I don't know about that but they found some literature, I understand, some literature dealing with Free Cuba Movement. Following this--and so I looked up and Jack Ruby is in the audience and he said, no, it is the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. Well, he corrected me, you see, to show you why I got attracted to his attention, why someone in the audience would speak up and answer a question.

Mr. DULLES. You hadn't known him before?

Mr. WADE. I had never known him, to my knowledge. He is a man about town, and I had seen him before, because when I saw him in there, and I actually thought he was a part of the press corps at the time.

Mr. RANKIN. Were any of your assistants or people working for you there at that showup?

Mr. WADE. I don't believe there were any of them there now. If there is any of them, it is Alexander, because he is the only one down there, but I think he is still up in homicide.

I will go further on that, some of my assistants know him, but he was in my office 2 days before this with a hot check or something where he was trying to collect a hot check or pay someone. I think he was trying to pay someone else's hot check off, I don't know what it was, I didn't see him. He talked to my check section. I found this out later.

Mr. RANKIN. By "he" you mean----

Mr. WADE. Ruby, Jack Ruby.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. WADE. He was in another office of mine, since this all came out, he was in there with a bunch of the police, we were trying a case on pornography, some of my assistants were, and my assistant came in his office during the noon hour after coming from the court, this was 2 or 3 days before the assassination and Ruby was sitting there in his office with five or six Dallas police officers. In fact, he was sitting in my assistant's desk and he started to sit down and asked who he was and the officer said, "Well, that is Jacky Ruby who runs the Carousel Club," so he had been down there.

I don't know him personally--I mean I didn't know who he was. It was one of these things I had seen the man, I imagine, but I had no idea who he was, and I will even go further, after it was over, this didn't come out in the trial, as they left down there, Ruby ran up to me and he said, "Hi Henry" he yelled real loud, he yelled. "Hi, Henry," and put his hand to shake hands with me and I shook hands with him. And he said, "Don't you know me?" And I am trying to figure out whether I did or not. And he said, "I am Jack Ruby, I run the Vegas Club." And I said, "What are you doing in here?" It was in the basement of the city hall. He said, "I know all these fellows." Just shook his hand and said, "I know all these fellows." I still didn't know whether he was talking about the press or police all the time, but he shook his hands kind of like that and left me and I was trying to get out of the place which was rather crowded, and if you are familiar with that basement, and I was trying to get out of that hall. And here I heard someone call "Henry Wade wanted on the phone," this was about 1 o'clock in the morning or about 1 o'clock in the morning, and I gradually get around to the phone there, one of the police phones, and as I get there it is Jack Ruby, and station KLIF in Dallas on the phone. You see, he had gone there, this came out in the trial, that he had gone over there and called KLIF and said Henry Wade is down there, I will get you an interview with him.

Mr. RANKIN. Who is this?

Mr. WADE. KLIF is the name of the radio station.

You see, I didn't know a thing, and I just picked up the phone and they said this is so and so at KLIF and started asking questions.

But that came out in the trial.

But to show that he was trying to be kind of the type of person who was wanting to think he was important, you know.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you give him an interview over the telephone to KLIF?

Mr. WADE. Ruby?

Mr. RANKIN. No.

Mr. WADE. I answered about two questions and hung up, but they had a man down there who later interviewed me before I got out of the building. But they just asked me had he been filed and one or two things.

Mr. DULLES. It was a KLIF reporter that you gave this to, not Ruby?

Mr. WADE. Not Ruby. Ruby was not on the phone, he had just gone out and called him and handed the phone to me. I thought I got a call from somebody, and picked it up and it was KLIF on the phone.

Mr. RANKIN. On the pornography charge, was Ruby involved in that?

Mr. WADE. No, sir; I don't know why he was down there, actually. But there were six or seven police officers, special services of the Dallas police were officers in the thing and I don't know whether he was just interested in it or what he was down there for but he was down there, and I didn't know him. He has tried to leave the impression that he had known me a long time but it is one of those things, I have been in politics and sometimes there are a lot of faces I know that I don't know actually who they are, but I didn't know who he was and he actually introduced himself to me that night.

Well, that is about all I can recall of that night.

I went home then.

Mr. RANKIN. You have told us all you remember about the showup?

Mr. WADE. I told you all, and, of course, all I know about it as far as my interview with the press. You can get more accurate, actually, by getting a transcript of it because I don't remember what all was asked, but I do remember the incident with Ruby and I know I told them that there would be no evidence given out in the case.

At that time, most of it had already been given out, however, by someone. I think by the police.

Now, the next morning, I don't know of anything else until the next morning. I went to the office about 9 o'clock.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question?

Mr. WADE. Yes, sir.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any particular transcript that you are speaking about?

Mr. WADE. No; I don't have anything. The thing about it is this was taken, this was on television and radio and all the networks. They had everything there set up and that is the only--that is the first of, I think, three times I was interviewed, but it was Friday night around between 12 and 1 o'clock. It was actually Saturday morning between 12 and 1.

Mr. RANKIN. So there were a number of networks, possibly, and a number of the radio stations and television stations from the whole area?

Mr. WADE. The whole area and it actually wasn't set up for an interview with me. It was an interview, what I thought, with Fritz and Curry, and I thought I would stay for it, but when they got into the interviewing, I don't know what happened to them but they weren't there. They had left, or I was the one who was answering the questions about things I didn't know much about, to tell you the truth.

Has that got it cleared? Can I go to the next morning?

I will try to go a little and not forget anything.

The next morning I went to my office, probably, say, 9 o'clock Saturday morning. Waiting there for me was Robert Oswald, who was the brother of Lee Harvey Oswald. You probably have met him, but I believe his name is Robert is his brother.

I talked to him about an hour.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to him and what did he say to you?

Mr. WADE. Well, we discussed the history of Lee Harvey Oswald and the--one of the purposes he came to me, he wanted his mother, Oswald's mother, and wife and him to see Oswald.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say this to you?

Mr. WADE. Yes; but we had already set it up, somebody, I don't know whether my office or the police, but he was set up to see him that morning at 11 o'clock, I believe, or 12 o'clock, some time.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about it?

Mr. WADE. Yes, sir; I checked to see if it was arranged. I called Captain Fritz and told him that he wanted to see him, and he said they were going to let him see him. I don't know. I don't know the name, but it was either 11 o'clock or 12 o'clock Saturday morning.

I don't know whether he had requested or not, but that was the first time I had seen him. I don't know why he came to my office, but I used it to try to go into Lee Harvey Oswald's background some, and I also told him that there is a lot involved in this thing from a national point of view, and I said, "You appear to be a good citizen," which he did appear to me, "and I think you will render your country a great service if you will go up and tell Oswald to tell us all about the thing." That was part of the deal of my working for a statement from Oswald which didn't pan out, of course. Because I was going to interview Oswald Sunday afternoon when we got him into the county jail and I was going to attempt to get a statement from him.

Mr. RANKIN. Did Robert tell you anything about Lee Harvey Oswald's background at that time?

Mr. WADE. He told me about in Europe, how in Russia, how they had had very little correspondence with them and he wrote to them renouncing or telling them he wanted to renounce his American citizenship and didn't want to have anything else to do with him. He said later that one of the letters changed some, I mean back, and then he said he was coming home, coming back and he had married and kind of his general history of the thing and he came back and I believe stayed with this Robert in Fort Worth for 2, 3, or 4 months. Now I say this is from memory, like I don't have--and they had helped him some, and said that Marina, the thing that impressed her was most your supermarkets, I think, more than anything else in this country, your A. & P. and the big, I guess you call them, supermarkets or whatever they are.

And he told me something about him going to New Orleans, but I gathered that they were not too close. I believe he told me this, that he hadn't seen him in close to a year prior to this, or a good while.

Now, it seemed to me like it was a year, and he said their families, they didn't have anything in common much, and he said, of course--I said "Do you think"--I said, "the evidence is pretty strong against your brother, what do you think about it?" He said, "Well, he is my brother, and I hate to think he would do this." He said, "I want to talk to him and ask him about it."

Now, I never did see him. Roughly, that is about all I remember from that conversation. We rambled around for quite a bit.

I know I was impressed because he got out and walked out the front of my office and in front of my office there were 15 or 20 press men wanting to ask him something, and he wouldn't say a word to them, he just walked off.

I told him they would be out there, and he said, "I won't have anything to say."

Mr. DULLES. Was this the morning after the assassination?

Mr. WADE. Yes, sir; Saturday morning.

Mr. DULLES. About what time?

Mr. WADE. I would say between 9 and 10 is when I talked with him.

And so the main purpose in the office, we believed, the main purpose of me and the lawyers in the office were briefing the law on whether to try Oswald for the murder of the President, whether you could prove the flight and the killing of Officer Tippit, which we became satisfied that we could, I mean from an evidentiary point of view.

Mr. RANKIN. By "we" who do you mean, in your office?

Mr. WADE. Well, I think I had seven or eight in there, Bowie, and Alexander, and Dan Ellis, Jim Williamson, but there was a legal point.

My office was open, but that, with reference to this case, there were other things going on, but in reference to this case, this is what we spent our time trying to establish whether that would be admissible or not.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you consult with any Federal officers in regard to how you should handle the case or what you should say about it at any time?

Mr. WADE. No; I didn't discuss, consult with any of them. I did talk to some of the FBI boys and I believe there was an inspector.

Mr. RANKIN. Secret Service?

Mr. WADE. No.

Mr. RANKIN. FBI?

Mr. WADE. There was an inspector of the FBI who called me two or three times. I don't remember.

Mr. RANKIN. Did they tell you how to handle the case in any way?

Mr. WADE. I don't think so. I mean it wasn't really up to them.

Mr. RANKIN. The only time you ever talked to Barefoot Sanders about it was in regard to this conspiracy, possibility of, that you have already described?

Mr. WADE. Frankly, that is hard to say. I think we talked off and on every day or two about developments in it, because, you see, well, I don't know whether we talked any more but before the killing by Ruby, but we had nearly a daily conversation about the files in the Oswald case, what we were going to do with them. You see, they were going to give them all to me, and at that stage we didn't know whether it was going to be a President's Commission or a congressional investigation or what. After the President's Commission was set up, I arranged through him and Miller here in the Justice Department that rather than give the files to me, to get the police to turn them over to the FBI and send them to you all, or photostat them and send them to you all.

Barefoot and I talked frequently, but I don't know of anything significant of the Oswald angle that we discussed, and we spent the last 2 months trying to get some of the FBI files to read on the Ruby trial. I mean we talked a lot but I don't know anything further about Oswald into it or anything on Ruby of any particular significance.

Mr. RANKIN. Was Barefoot Sanders suggesting how you should handle the Oswald case except the time you already related?

Mr. WADE. I don't recall him doing, suggesting that.

Mr. RANKIN. Any other Federal officers suggesting anything like that to you?

Mr. WADE. The only thing I remember is the inspector of the FBI whom I don't think I ever met. I was there in the police one time during this shuffle, and I think it was some time Saturday morning, and he said they should have nothing, no publicity on the thing, no statements.

Now, I don't know whether that was after Ruby shot Oswald or before, I don't know when it was, but I did talk with him and I know his concern which was that there was too much publicity.

Mr. RANKIN. And he told you that, did he?

Mr. WADE. At some stage in it. I am thinking it was Sunday night which I know I talked with him Sunday night, but we are not that far along with it yet. But I don't know whether I talked to him previously or not.

Mr. RANKIN. That is the only conversation of that type that you recall with any Federal officer?

Mr. WADE. That is all I recall. I am sure Barefoot and I discussed the publicity angle on it some, but I don't remember Barefoot suggesting how we handle it, but neither one of us knew whether it was his offense or mine, to begin with, for 2 or 3 hours because we had to select it.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what Barefoot said about publicity when you did discuss it with him?

Mr. WADE. I don't recall anything.

Mr. RANKIN. All right.

What happened next, as you recall?

Mr. WADE. I was going home. I went by the police station to talk to Chief Curry.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the evidence then?

Mr. WADE. Well, at that time--you see, Chief Curry knew very little of the evidence at that stage. He should have known, but he didn't. But I discussed the thing with him and I told him there was too much evidence being put out in the case from his department, that I wish he would talk to Fritz and have no further statements on it.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that?

Mr. WADE. He said, "That is fine. I think that is so."

Mr. RANKIN. Now, going back just a moment, you spoke out about a map earlier that you had been told they had as evidence, do you recall, of the parade route. Did you look at the map at the time?

Mr. WADE. I don't think I ever saw the map.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't know what it contained in regard to the parade route?

Mr. WADE. I was told by Fritz that it had the parade route and it had an X where the assassination took place and it had an X out on Stemmons Freeway and an X at Inwood Road and Lemon, is all I know, a circle or some mark there.

Mr. RANKIN. But you have never seen the map?

Mr. WADE. So far as I know, I have never seen the map. I don't know even where it was found, but I think it was found in his home, probably. But that is my recollection. But I don't even know that. I told Chief Curry this.

Then I walked out, and Tom Pettit of NBC said, "We are all confused on the law, where we are really on this thing."

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say?

Mr. WADE. At that time I said, "Well, I will explain the procedure, Texas procedure in a criminal case," and I had about a 10-minute interview there as I was leaving the chief's office, dealing entirely with the procedure, I mean your examining trial and grand jury and jury trial. I mean as to what takes place. You see, they had all kinds of statements and other countries represented and they were all curious to ask legal questions, when bond would be set and when it would be done.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the evidence at that time?

Mr. WADE. No, sir; I refused. You will find that I refused to answer questions. They all asked questions on it, but I would tell them that is evidence and that deals with evidence in the matter.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell them why you wouldn't answer those questions?

Mr. WADE. I told them we had to try the case, here, and we would have to try the case and we wouldn't be able to get a jury if they knew all the evidence in the case.

You will find that in those interviews most, I think. I haven't seen them. As a matter of fact, didn't see them myself even. But I went home that day, and----

Mr. DULLES. That day is Saturday?

Mr. WADE. Saturday; yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. About what time? Do you recall?

Mr. WADE. I guess I got home 2:30 probably. I must have eaten on the way home or somewhere.

Mr. RANKIN. In the afternoon?

Mr. WADE. Yes, sir; and I know I was amazed as I walked through the television room there and saw Chief Curry with that gun. You see, at that time they had not identified the gun as his gun, but he was telling about the FBI report on it.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you just describe what you saw there at that time?

Mr. WADE. Well, I know he was in a crowd, and it seems to me like he had the gun, but on second thought I am not even sure whether he had the gun, but he was tracing the history of how that the gun was bought under the name, under an assumed name from a mail-order house in Chicago and mailed there to Dallas, and that the serial number and everything that had been identified, that the FBI had done that, something else.