Chapter XXII: Section 349: (a) states, "From and after the effective date of this Act, (2)

Mr. SNYDER. Oh, yes; every embassy there knows the system, and operates within it. All mail from or to a foreign embassy in Moscow goes to a separate section of the Moscow Post Office, called the international section, and this is the screening office for all mail to and from any embassy.

Representative FORD. As far as you know, is that still the process today?

Mr. SNYDER. I am sure it is, sir. The essentials of the Soviet State haven't changed.

Senator COOPER. May I ask a few questions?

I have been examining these exhibits which have been introduced. The first one I have looked at is Exhibit No. 908, which refers to Lee Harvey Oswald's call at the Embassy and your interview with him.

Mr. DULLES. Is that from Moscow to Washington, the State Department?

Senator COOPER. Yes; it is your interview with Oswald.

Mr. SNYDER. Yes, sir; that is right.

Senator COOPER. In this he states that he applied for a Soviet tourist visa in Helsinki on October 14. He applied for citizenship by letter to the Supreme Soviet on October 16, in Moscow. And your report to the State Department said that he appeared at the Embassy on October 31, and presented his request for renunciation in writing.

I assume that you have had other cases of this kind, have you not?

Mr. SNYDER. Well, particularly the Petrulli case, yes; a few weeks earlier.

Senator COOPER. Would it be normal in your judgment that this period of time, from the time he applied to the Soviet for citizenship, the Supreme Soviet, which was on October 16, as he said, it would not be acted upon in 2 weeks?

Mr. SNYDER. I would think it would be highly unusual if it were acted upon in 2 weeks; yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did others talk to him in the Embassy beside you?

Mr. SNYDER. Not to my knowledge; no, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did you know whether or not newspaper people, American newspaper people were talking to him?

Mr. SNYDER. I know that Priscilla Johnson talked to him. Whether others got to him, I don't know. He wasn't terribly communicative.

Senator COOPER. Did she tell you she talked to him?

Mr. SNYDER. Oh, yes.

Senator COOPER. But you do not know whether or not other members of the Embassy staff talked to him?

Mr. SNYDER. I have no reason to believe that anyone else talked to him, other than myself, Senator Cooper. That is, at this time. I mean at a later time, Mr. McVickar, I presume, talked to Oswald. He talked to his wife, I am quite sure. I presume that Oswald was with her. But up until the time that I left Moscow, Oswald was my baby, and I don't think anyone else talked to him in the Embassy.

Mr. DULLES. Were there other cases, other than the Petrulli and the Oswald case, where Americans attempted to or did renounce their citizenship while you were in Moscow in this period?

Mr. SNYDER. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. To whom were you directly responsible in the Embassy?

Mr. SNYDER. My immediate superior was Mr. Freers, Edward Freers, who was the Deputy Chief of Mission.

Senator COOPER. Was he informed about this case?

Mr. SNYDER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Who was the American ambassador at that time?

Mr. SNYDER. Ambassador Thompson.

Senator COOPER. Did he know about it?

Mr. SNYDER. I presume he did. Ambassador Thompson knew everything that went on in his shop. If through no other means, both the Ambassador and the DCM, the Deputy Chief of Mission, read the correspondence coming in and out, and this is their basic line of information.

Senator COOPER. In your report, Commission Exhibit No. 908, you stated that he knew the provisions of U.S. law on loss of citizenship, and declined to have them reviewed by the interviewing officer. Is that correct? He said he knew how he could renounce his citizenship?

Mr. SNYDER. Yes; I attempted to explain to him at the time the seriousness of his move, the meaning of it, the irrevocability of it and the section of law applying. He was quite curt in his manner, and apparently among other things, declined to have me read the law to him.

Senator COOPER. Exhibit No. 920 refers to the letter received by the Embassy from Lee Oswald, who was residing in the Metropole Hotel. It does show that it was dated November 3, and received, according to this, on November 12, no, date sent November 7.

This could be a speculation. It appears to me, though, it is a very well written letter. "I, Lee Harvey Oswald, do hereby request that my present United States citizenship be revoked. I appered [sic] in person, at the consulate office of the U.S. Embassy, Moscow, on Oct. 31st for the purpose of signing the formal papers to this effect. This legal right I was refused at that time. I wish to protest against this action and against the conduct of the official of the United States consular service who acted on behalf of the United States Government. My application requesting that I be considered for citizenship in the Soviet Union is now pending before the Supreme Soviet of the U.S.S.R. In the event of acceptance, I will request my government to lodge a formal protest regarding this incident."

Signed "Lee Harvey Oswald."

I would assume that the last sentence referred to the Soviet Union.

Mr. SNYDER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. From your examination and interview with Lee Harvey Oswald, your talks with him, does that letter appear to be one which he had the capacity to write in that language and form?

Mr. SNYDER. That is a difficult thing to speculate on, Senator Cooper. I would say this----

Senator COOPER. It is a very good letter.

Mr. SNYDER. At first blush, I would not say that it was beyond his capacity. He did strike me as an intelligent man. He was certainly very articulate. Actually still a boy, I suppose, in a sense--he was 20 at the time I saw him. He was a very articulate person, and quite intelligent. I don't think from what I saw of him that the letter is beyond his capacity to have written.

There is also an element of it which is very much Oswaldish, and that is the last paragraph, the rather strident tones of it. One finds this in his other correspondence with the Embassy, and in the tone which he took when he first spoke with me--extremely strident tone. It is almost comical in a sense, this last paragraph, in its pomposity, its sonorousness. I am quite prepared to believe that the last part at least is Oswald's.

Senator COOPER. One other question.

In your report you noted that he had made statements about the United States, derogatory statements.

Did he ever direct his statements toward any individual in the United States, any official?

Mr. SNYDER. No; I have no recollection that he directed his statements against anyone, Senator Cooper. I think that if he had, I would likely have reported this matter. As a matter of fact, on the general subject of the molding of his attitudes, he was not very communicative.

Mr. DULLES. Was he technically correct there in his statement--I believe he said that his application was pending before the Supreme Soviet. Is that technically correct?

Mr. SNYDER. That is technically correct; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You may continue, Mr. Coleman.

Mr. COLEMAN. Now, Mr. Snyder, on March 24, 1961, you sent a Foreign Service Despatch to the Department indicating that you had received a second letter from Mr. Oswald on March 20, 1961, and you said that the letter was postmarked Minsk, March 5, and Moscow March 17. I would like to show you a Commission document which has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 940, and ask you whether that is a copy of the Foreign Service Despatch which you sent forth to the Department.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 940 for identification.)

Mr. DULLES. Could this be very briefly summarized for the record while it is being read?

Mr. COLEMAN. In this despatch, he sets forth the letter which Mr. Oswald sent, which basically said that it would be hard for him to get to the Embassy in Moscow, and why can't they send the papers to Minsk?

Mr. DULLES. These are the papers about his return?

Mr. COLEMAN. Yes, papers that he would have to fill out to see if he was entitled to get his passport back.

Would the witness identify the despatch? Is that the one you sent?

Mr. SNYDER. Yes; it is.

Mr. COLEMAN. I take it that the first answer you got from the Department to your despatch of February 28, 1961, which is marked as Commission Exhibit No. 932, indicating the first letter you received from Oswald, and then the second despatch marked Commission Exhibit No. 940, was a State Department instruction dated April 13, 1961, which was marked as Commission Exhibit No. 934.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 934 for identification.)

Mr. COLEMAN. Is that the despatch which you received?

Mr. SNYDER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. And then again on May 26, 1961, you sent another despatch to the State Department indicating that you received another letter from Oswald, and stating that you thought you would return to Oswald his passport, and that has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 936.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 936 for identification.)

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Chairman, I note a reference in the margin here, in Commission Exhibit No. 934.

Do you know whose handwriting that is in, Mr. Snyder?

Mr. SNYDER. Yes, sir; that is my handwriting.

Mr. DULLES. What does that say?

Mr. SNYDER. It says, "May be necessary give him before he can arrange depart."

Mr. COLEMAN. Now, Mr. Snyder, on or about July 10 or 11, 1961, Mr. Oswald physically appeared at the American Embassy again, did he not?

Mr. SNYDER. Yes; I saw him once more--I believe once more--possibly twice.

Mr. COLEMAN. Actually he came in on a Saturday, did he not, which was July 8, and then you saw him again on the following Monday, isn't that correct? Didn't you actually see him twice during that period?

Mr. SNYDER. I think that I must have. As I say, I think I must have, because of my review of the record at the time indicates that I think I saw him on the 8th, and the application was taken on the 10th, which means, I presumably saw him twice.

Mr. COLEMAN. Do you recall when he came into the Embassy on the 8th and what he said, and what you did?

Mr. SNYDER. No; in fact, I have no recollection of his having come in at that time, Mr. Coleman.

Mr. COLEMAN. In the course of these two interviews on the 8th and on the 10th, he actually filled out an application for renewal of his passport, did he not?

Mr. SNYDER. Yes, sir.

Mr. COLEMAN. And you handled that application? That is correct?

Mr. SNYDER. Yes, sir.

Mr. COLEMAN. I next have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 938, a six page document which purports to be an application for renewal of passport, together with a questionnaire which was attached thereto, and ask you whether that is a copy of the application for renewal which you filled out at that time.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 938 for identification.)

Mr. SNYDER. With reference to his visit on the 8th, it is possible that he telephoned. Again, I don't know quite what our record shows on that.

Mr. COLEMAN. Well, to help you refresh your recollection, sir, there has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 935 a Foreign Service Despatch dated July 11, 1961, in which you described the meeting with Oswald. Perhaps you would want to be reading that.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 935 for identification.)

Mr. SNYDER. This is the interview which I thought I had on the 10th.

Representative FORD. What does it mean in this questionnaire [Commission Exhibit No. 938] where Oswald says, and I quote, "I recived [sic] a document for residence in the U.S.S.R. but I am described as being 'Without Citizenship'"?

Mr. SNYDER. This undoubtedly refers to his so-called internal Soviet passport, Mr. Ford. Every Soviet citizen living in urban areas, and also in the border areas, bears an internal passport which identifies him, has certain other information about him, and bears a notation of nationality. There are, as I recall, three varieties of this. One is for Soviet citizens, one is for citizens of foreign countries, I believe, and another is for stateless persons.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the last category?

Mr. SNYDER. Stateless persons. My mind is not clear at this stage as to whether the passports for foreigners and stateless persons is the same or not. I don't quite recall. At any rate, there is an entry in there which asks to state his nationality. No, it is a separate passport. As I recall the title of it, it is called--it is a separate passport.

Mr. DULLES. Did the Soviet Union ever indicate to the Embassy, as far as you know, that they considered Oswald as stateless, or is that Oswald's own statement?

Mr. SNYDER. The only indication is the internal passport which he had, which was made out by local officials, and which may have been based upon a statement that Oswald himself made to them. He may have regarded himself as being stateless, I don't know, at the time he applied for that document.

Mr. DULLES. And that did not necessarily require, as far as you know, reference to Moscow?

Mr. SNYDER. No.

Mr. DULLES. You think the local authorities could have done that on their own, and on the information they got from Oswald?

Mr. SNYDER. Yes; the term "stateless," I might interject here, is used rather loosely by Soviet authorities, because, in the first place, they have clearly no authority and no basis upon which to determine whether a person is a citizen of a foreign state. I mean only the foreign state can determine that.

So that the Soviet authorities had no basis on which to determine whether Oswald was or was not a citizen of the United States or of six other countries.

Mr. DULLES. Except the fact that they had seen his passport and knew of the existence of his American passport.

Mr. SNYDER. On that basis, they would--well, he was certainly an American citizen when he entered as far as they were concerned; yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Is a person who is stateless the same as a person who is "without citizenship"?

Mr. SNYDER. Yes, sir; this distinction is only in translation, Mr. Ford.

Mr. COLEMAN. Mr. Snyder, in the passport application, at the bottom there is a place where you have to cross out "have" or "have not" in connection with four questions. Could you read into the record the printed part at the bottom of the application?

Mr. DULLES. Would you just clarify for us what application this is?

Mr. COLEMAN. This is the application for the passport renewal which Oswald signed----

Mr. DULLES. For the American passport to return to the United States?

Mr. COLEMAN. Well, this is a renewal of the passport.

Mr. DULLES. A renewal of the passport to return to the United States?

Mr. SNYDER. It says, "I have--have not--been naturalized as a citizen of a foreign state; taken an oath or made an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state; entered or served in, the armed forces of a foreign state; accepted, served in, or performed the duties of, any office, post or employment under the government of a foreign state or political subdivision thereof; voted in a political election in a foreign state or participated in an election or plebiscite to determine the sovereignty over foreign territory; made a formal renunciation of nationality, either in the United States or before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States in a foreign state; been convicted by court martial of deserting the military, air or naval service of the United States in time of war, or of committing any act of treason against or of attempting by force to overthrow, or of bearing arms against the United States; or departed from or remained outside the jurisdiction of the United States for the purpose of evading or avoiding training and service in the military, air or naval forces of the United States.

"If any of the above-mentioned acts or conditions are applicable to the applicant's case, or to the case of any other person included in this application, a supplementary statement under oath should be attached and made a part hereof."

Mr. COLEMAN. Mr. Snyder, as I read the application, what you did was to cross out the "have not" which means that Oswald was stating that he had done one of those acts which you have read, is that correct?

Mr. SNYDER. This is what it would mean.

Mr. COLEMAN. Which one of the various acts that you have read was it your impression that Oswald was admitting that he had done?

Mr. SNYDER. Well, there are two possibilities here. One possibility is that the crossing out of "have not" is a clerical error, and that he did not intend to do this.

Mr. COLEMAN. How could that be a possibility. Don't you pretty much negate that possibility by the fact that you did require him to fill out the questionnaire which only has to be filled out if he admits that he has done one of the various acts?

Mr. SNYDER. No; the questionnaire is filled out routinely in Moscow in any kind of problem case.

Mr. COLEMAN. Even though the citizen has done none of the acts which are set forth in the passport renewal application?

Mr. SNYDER. Yes; well, I say in a problem case. I don't mean an American tourist coming in to get his passport renewed, on whom there is no presumption of any problem at all. But a person who has resided in the Soviet Union----

Mr. COLEMAN. Is it your testimony this is only a typographical error?

Mr. SNYDER. This is one possibility. The other possibility is that he may have said, "I have taken an oath or made an affirmation or formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state."

He had, on several occasions, you know, stated that his allegiance was to the Soviet Union.

He may have put this down--that is, he may have said "have", having that act in mind, knowing that I knew it, and that there was no need to attempt to hide the fact. This is possible.

Mr. COLEMAN. Do you recall just what you had in mind on July 10 when he gave you that application filled out in the manner it was?

Mr. SNYDER. I am sorry, I don't think I understand the question.

Mr. COLEMAN. Then I will withdraw it and rephrase it. Do you now recall what reaction you had in mind when you received the application which had been crossed out in such a way that indicated that he was admitting that he had done one of the various acts which are set forth on the form?

Mr. SNYDER. No; I don't. Of course what I would have been concerned with at the time in more detail really is the questionnaire, which is an expansion of this paragraph, and is much more meaningful. So I would have been concerned both with what he said on the questionnaire and with the facts of his case--whether he thought he committed one of these acts is not material to the fact of whether he had committed it or whether he lost his citizenship thereby.

At any rate, my attention would have been directed to the expanded questionnaire in which he had to fill out individual paragraphs concerning each one of these things, and to a determination of the facts in the case.

Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether or not that striking out was noted at the time the passport application or extension was considered?

Mr. SNYDER. I do not, Mr. Dulles; no.

Representative FORD. Did you have his file out and looking at it, reading it, studying at the time he was there and this came up?

Mr. SNYDER. I presume I did, Mr. Ford, but--I am sure his file was there. But in any event, I was the officer handling his case. Having written virtually everything in the file from the outgoing point of view, I was very well familiar with it.

Mr. COLEMAN. In any event, having received the questionnaire and the application, you determined that Mr. Oswald was entitled to an American passport, is that correct?

Mr. SNYDER. Yes, sir.

Mr. COLEMAN. And you sent forward the application and the questionnaire in the Foreign Service Despatch of July 11, 1961, which has been marked Exhibit No. 935, is that correct?

Mr. SNYDER. Yes, sir.

Mr. COLEMAN. And your recommendation was that the passport should issue--the passport office should issue a new passport, is that correct?

Mr. SNYDER. I would issue the passport; yes.

Mr. COLEMAN. And also on the same day, at the end of the interview on July 10, 1961, you returned to Mr. Oswald the American passport which he had given you in 1959. Is that correct?

Mr. SNYDER. Yes.

Mr. COLEMAN. Didn't you stamp that passport before you returned it to him? I show you Commission Exhibit No. 946 and ask you would you indicate to the Commission----

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question before the witness answers this question? Was that application and questionnaire considered in the State Department before the passport was issued, or was the passport issued on general instructions before they received this application?

Mr. SNYDER. I will have to correct a word we used before. It is renewal, and not issuance.

His passport was good for another 2 years if we renewed, and he was applying for renewal of his passport, not issuance of a new one.

In either event, the issuance or renewal would have been done by the Embassy, by me.

Mr. COLEMAN. The problem, Mr. Dulles, is the existing passport he had, by its term, would expire September 1961, is that correct?

Mr. SNYDER. Yes, sir.

Mr. COLEMAN. And you felt he would not be able to get out of the Soviet Union prior to September 1961, and therefore his existing passport would have to be renewed?

Mr. SNYDER. I don't recall offhand what the purpose of renewing the passport at that time was. There was no prospect of his leaving the Soviet Union at that time, and probably not for quite some time to come, in my estimation, and based upon my experience with other cases he would have required his passport, and I presume this is why I was returning it to him.

Mr. COLEMAN. On July 10, 1961, you did two things with respect to the passport. First, you returned to him his old passport, isn't that correct?

Mr. SNYDER. I think I did. I might reread my despatch and see.

Mr. COLEMAN. And, second, you accepted his application for renewal of the passport.

Mr. SNYDER. Yes; my mind is clear on that. Yes; I recall now.

Mr. COLEMAN. When you returned to him his old passport, you first stamped the old passport.

Mr. SNYDER. Yes.

Mr. COLEMAN. Will you indicate for the record how you stamped the old passport?

Mr. SNYDER. The passport was marked "This passport is valid only for direct travel to the United States." (Commission Exhibit No. 946, p. 6.)

Mr. DULLES. Are you quite clear you returned the passport to him before he made his final plans to return?

Mr. SNYDER. I am not entirely----

Mr. COLEMAN. Sir, before you answer the question, I suggest if you look at the Foreign Office Despatch dated July 11, 1961, you will find that you told the Department what you did at the time.

Mr. SNYDER. Oh, yes.

Mr. DULLES. Could that be read into the record--just what he did say about the handling of the passport at that time--that is July what?

Mr. SNYDER. July 8, 1961.

This was July 8. "Oswald intends to institute an application"----

Mr. COLEMAN. Pardon me. Wasn't it really July 10? July 8 was the day he came over to the Embassy just for a few moments. Then he came back on the 10th.

Mr. SNYDER. I don't know. It isn't clear from my despatch, I would say.

Mr. COLEMAN. Would you read----

Mr. SNYDER. Actually, if we knew what day of the week the 8th was----

Mr. COLEMAN. Subject to check, it was a Saturday.

Mr. SNYDER. "Oswald intends to institute an application for an exit visa immediately upon his return to Minsk within the next few days. His American passport was returned to him for this purpose after having been amended to be valid for direct travel--for direct return to the United States only."

Mr. COLEMAN. In that same Foreign Service Despatch you indicated at the end that you were sending to the Passport Office in Washington the application for renewal, isn't that correct?

Mr. SNYDER. Yes; that is right.

Representative FORD. May I ask Mr. Snyder--on Commission Exhibit No. 938, where Oswald said, "I have been naturalized as a citizen of a foreign state," and so forth--if that was the only statement that was made, what effect would that have had on his application either for a renewal or a new passport?

Mr. SNYDER. Well, it would have the effect of flagging the consular officer to ask some questions, Mr. Ford.

Representative FORD. Would it have automatically disqualified him for renewal or the issuance of a new passport?

Mr. SNYDER. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Not under the law or the regulations?

Mr. SNYDER. Not to the best of my knowledge. In other words, what he says, to my knowledge, is immaterial to a finding of his loss of nationality. It is the act which counts.

Mr. COLEMAN. I don't think that is quite the Congressman's question. His question is if he had actually naturalized himself, could he be entitled to get an American passport?

Mr. SNYDER. Oh, no; of course, if he had committed the act of accepting naturalization in a foreign state, he could not have. He would have lost his American citizenship.

Representative FORD. But limiting your knowledge to what he said in this paragraph, this in and of itself would have precluded either the issuance of a new passport or renewal?

Mr. SNYDER. No; I don't think we can say that, Mr. Ford, because no matter what he says in there, this does not affect his right--does not affect his American citizenship. It is the determination of facts which determines it. And the only thing this does, really--well, the first thing it does is to alert the consular officer to start asking him some questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, I have a call from the Court. I must go over there now. We have the Court conference at 2 o'clock. Will someone be here to preside at 2 o'clock?

Representative FORD. Mr. Chairman, I have to leave, too. We have a quorum call over on the floor of the House. I can be back at 2. But I do have to leave at the present time.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you be back at 2 to preside until I return from the Court?

Representative FORD. I would be very glad to, Mr. Chairman.

Senator COOPER. Mr. Chairman, I will be able to be here part of the time this afternoon. But we are voting this afternoon. I don't know exactly what time.

Mr. DULLES. I will be here at 2:30, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, fine.

Representative FORD. May I ask how much longer you intend to go on?

Mr. COLEMAN. I think I can finish in about 4 minutes with Mr. Snyder.

Representative FORD. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Representative FORD. Back on the record.

We will recess now until 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 12:25 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF RICHARD EDWARD SNYDER RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.

Representative FORD. The Commission will come to order. Will you proceed.

Mr. COLEMAN. Mr. Snyder, we have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 947, which is a covering airgram and another copy of the application for renewal of passport, which is a copy which remained in the Embassy at Moscow until May 29, 1964, when it was sent to the State Department.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 947 for identification.)

Mr. COLEMAN. I show it to you, sir, to call your attention that on this copy the "X" is over the "have" rather than the "have not."

Mr. SNYDER. Yes, sir.

Mr. COLEMAN. I had originally shown you Exhibit No. 938, which was the other copy of the application for renewal of passport.

I take it when you compare those two copies, you note that one is not a direct offset of the other.

Mr. SNYDER. Yes, sir.

Mr. COLEMAN. Do you have an explanation of why on July 10, two separate typings were made of the application for renewal?

Mr. SNYDER. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. COLEMAN. Also on or about July 11, 1961, at the same time you were interviewing Oswald, the State Department was sending instructions, answering your earlier despatch of May 26, 1961, is that correct?

I show you Commission Exhibit No. 937.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 937 for identification.)

Mr. SNYDER. This communication would have been received after my departure from Moscow.

Mr. COLEMAN. You never saw that communication?

Mr. SNYDER. No, sir.

Mr. COLEMAN. That communication does indicate, doesn't it, that the State Department was saying, that based upon its records, that Oswald had not expatriated himself, or was still technically an American citizen?

Mr. SNYDER. Yes; the one operative sentence there in the communications states, "In any event in the absence of evidence showing that Mr. Oswald had definitely lost United States citizenship he apparently maintains that technical status."

Mr. COLEMAN. But you say you never saw that document?

Mr. SNYDER. No; this arrived after I departed from the post.

Mr. COLEMAN. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 939, the State Department operations memorandum dated August 18, 1961, and ask you if you saw it?

Mr. SNYDER. No; it arrived after I left.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 939 for identification.)

Mr. COLEMAN. On July 8 and July 10, when Oswald was at the Embassy, did you see his wife, Marina?

Mr. SNYDER. Not to the best of my knowledge, Mr. Coleman.

Mr. COLEMAN. Did you have any knowledge that she was also in Moscow?

Mr. SNYDER. I don't really know. I can't say whether at that time I had knowledge that she was or not. I don't ever recall having seen her, no.

Mr. COLEMAN. When you spoke to Oswald on the 8th or on the 10th of July, did he indicate that his wife was in Moscow?

Mr. SNYDER. I am sorry, I don't know.

Mr. COLEMAN. In connection with the various decisions you have made in this matter, did you consult with anyone?

Mr. SNYDER. I think perhaps the word "consult" isn't quite the word. I kept my superiors informed of what I was doing, and, of course, they did see my communications, and in most cases countersigned them before they went out. But in the sense of asking their opinion of what I ought to do, I don't think so.

Mr. COLEMAN. Did anyone instruct you as to what particular decision you should make in connection with any requests made by Mr. Oswald?

Mr. SNYDER. No; this was my responsibility, really. There was no one who was presumed to know more about it at the post than I did. I mean in the sense that I was the officer in charge of that activity.

Mr. COLEMAN. There is one other question, sir.

We have some information that Oswald stated that in 1959, when he was in the hospital, that he was in the same ward with an elderly American. Do you have any idea who the elderly American could have been?

Mr. SNYDER. No; I am afraid not.

Mr. COLEMAN. Would there be any record in the Embassy which would indicate what Americans were in Moscow at that time, and whether there was an elderly American who had been hospitalized?

Mr. SNYDER. We kept an informal file of all information relating to the presence of Americans any place in the Soviet Union.

In other words, any time we had a report of any kind, of any level of credibility, we kept some kind of a record. It was known that there were Americans in the Soviet Union under various circumstances against their own will, or persons who might be Americans, or might have had a claim to American citizenship, who might have been dual nationals--one doesn't know. But we would get reports occasionally from a state camp, a labor camp, of a sighting of an American, or a person who claimed to be an American. This sort of thing.

Mr. COLEMAN. Would that information be in a special file in the Embassy, or would it be spread throughout various files?

Mr. SNYDER. No; it was in, as I recall, a separate informal listing. In other words, they were also reported to the Department of State. The chances are that the Department also maintained----

Mr. COLEMAN. Have you any idea what that file might be called, if we were going to ask for it by name--what name we would give so that the people in Moscow would know what we are trying to take a look at?

Mr. SNYDER. No; I don't. But it would most likely have been under "Welfare and Whereabouts." The files in Moscow, I might say, the classified files are not that extensive. I mean they were one-drawer files for the most part that we officers worked on ourselves, physically.

Mr. COLEMAN. When Oswald came in to see you in 1959, did you have any feeling that somebody was coaching him, or had instructed him what to say or do?

Mr. SNYDER. Well, I think I am accurate in saying at that time I assumed he had been in contact with some level of Soviet representative or official and had discussed his intended actions, and perhaps had had some advice from them as to what to do or how to approach things--in the sense that his words were somebody else's, I don't think I could say, because he gave me the impression, the times I saw him, of an intelligent person who spoke in a manner, and on a level, which seemed to befit his apparent level of intelligence.

However, he did say in my first interview with him either "I have been told what you are going to tell me," or "I am very familiar with the arguments you are going to use on me," or words to this effect, which would be the most direct evidence, shall we say, that he had discussed what he intended to say, and how he intended to handle himself, before he came in to me.

But, in any event, I think it is a foregone conclusion, from what I know of the procedures and things like this, that he was in contact with a Soviet official, he was under somebody's charge in a sense during the time he was there. This was certainly the pattern in the Petrulli case. My whole knowledge of the system and the way it works, the whole internal consistency of it, would lead me to believe that this were the case, unless I had firm evidence to believe otherwise.

Mr. COLEMAN. How about when he reappeared on July 8 and 10, 1961? Did you feel he was being coached at that time in connection with his attempt to get his passport returned to him?

Mr. SNYDER. No; I don't have any direct evidence that he was coached, I think, in the terms in which you mean. For one thing, his manner of speech and his general approach to the degree that I recall it was, well, less stiff, less formal, and certainly less haughty than it had been on the first occasion. He also didn't use with me the kind of Marxist sloganeering which I got from him on the first interview, which also, I think, is in a sense an evidence of his having been well briefed on his talk with me.

The second time around this was pretty much absent from his conversation.

Mr. COLEMAN. You say you felt he was well briefed on his first conversation with you in 1959, but not in connection with his second?

Mr. SNYDER. Well, again, I cannot say that he was well briefed. I just don't know. But I say, it seemed to me evident at the time that he had discussed with, presumably, a Soviet person or persons what he intended to do at the Embassy, and perhaps the line he should take at the Embassy.

Mr. COLEMAN. Well, how do you feel or do you think there is any special significance to the way he entered the Soviet Union from Helsinki in October of 1959?

Mr. SNYDER. Well, there is some significance perhaps, but not a great amount of significance. As most travelers, most tourist travelers come into the Soviet Union on a prearranged tour--many do come from Helsinki. Many of them do not come to Moscow. They go only to Leningrad, spend a day or two, and go back again across the border. It is the shortest entry onto Soviet territory from non-Communist territory.

It was at least one other case, when I was in Moscow, of a person--that is with possible defecting intent, who came into the Soviet Union through Helsinki, and who got his visa apparently directly at the Soviet Embassy, which I think is what Oswald did, although I cannot be sure. But it was my impression at the time that he did not have a prepared tourist tour sort of thing. But I cannot be sure on this point.

Mr. COLEMAN. Do you draw any significance from the fact that he was able to come from Minsk into Moscow on July 8, apparently without any difficulty?

Mr. SNYDER. No; I cannot say that he came without any difficulty. He may have had considerable difficulty. It was my feeling that he would have some difficulty in coming to Moscow.

Representative FORD. Did you make any inquiry about that? Did that rouse your curiosity, that he was able to come?

Mr. SNYDER. No; because I expected that he would be able to come, Mr. Ford. As a matter of fact, the letter which I wrote to him in reply to the first letter to me which I received was very carefully worded with this in mind. It was written, for one thing, partly addressed to the Soviet authorities who would read it. And partly to Oswald--which could be used by him in a sense should he run up against real difficulties in getting permission to come to Moscow.

At any rate, I think it was my feeling at the time that he probably could come to the Embassy, although it might cost him considerable difficulty. But I saw no reason to spare him this difficulty.

Mr. COLEMAN. Is there any other information you have which you think the Commission would be interested in in connection with its work and its investigation?

Mr. SNYDER. I can't really--well, let me say that I don't know of any other facts pertinent to the investigation, or pertinent to Oswald in any way which I have not presented, at least not knowingly.

There may well be--there is much that I could elaborate on, on what I have said, relating to Oswald. There are a good deal of small things which perhaps under further questioning might be elicited.

But I am not aware of anything which I have not mentioned and which is in any way pertinent, and which ought to be mentioned.

There are other observations about Oswald and this sort of thing I suppose I could elaborate on to some extent.

Representative FORD. Earlier in the interrogation, Mr. Coleman had you outline what transpired the day that Oswald walked into the Embassy, in the first instance?

Mr. SNYDER. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. The Commission has in the various papers picked up following Oswald's apprehension and murder, what purports to be his observations or his diary during his stay in the Soviet Union. Have you read any of those?

Mr. SNYDER. No, sir.

Representative FORD. He describes in one of these documents his experience that day he came into the Embassy. Would you in some detail relate that again, as you understand what transpired? What time of day it was, where you were, in what office, and so forth. Who was with you, if anybody.

Mr. SNYDER. I might begin, I think, as I began originally, by stating that I don't recall the time of day. But from my knowledge of the facts of the case, and the fact that I told him the Embassy was closed and so forth, it had to have been either a Wednesday or a Saturday afternoon, if not a Sunday. I am told that the date on which he came actually was a Saturday, so I presume it was a Saturday afternoon that he came.

Representative FORD. Don't spare of the detail, because it would be interesting to get your version and his as he purportedly related it in a document of his own subsequently.

Mr. SNYDER. I am not sure whether he was brought in to me or whether I went out and met him at the door and brought him in. I don't recall whether one of my secretaries might have been on duty that afternoon. Normally, she would not have been.

I believe that Mr. McVickar was working in the office adjoining mine. The offices in Moscow are quite small and the door between our offices is usually open. And I think that Mr. McVickar told me he was in the next office.

There was no one in the office with me at the time I saw him.

Oswald was well dressed and very neat appearing when he came in. I don't recall whether he was wearing a suit and shirt and tie. But at any rate, his appearance impressed me at the time. And I recall that he looked very presentable.

He was very curt, very proper. At no time did he insult me or anything of that sort personally. He was just proper, but extremely curt.

Representative FORD. Did he just walk in the door and you were seated at your desk? What was the way in which you first spoke to one another?

Mr. SNYDER. I don't recall whether he was ushered into my office by the secretary or one of the employees, or whether I was told that there was someone waiting for me outside, and I went and got him. It is unlikely that he walked into the offices, because he would have had to walk through two other offices to get to mine.

Well, he stated--he gave me a written statement, which is in the record, almost immediately upon his arrival, I believe.

Representative FORD. That is Commission Exhibit No. 913.

Mr. SNYDER. He stated in effect that he had come to the Soviet Union to live in the Soviet Union, that he desired to renounce his American citizenship, though I don't think he used the word "renounce"--I think he used another word--but that he desired to renounce his American citizenship. That his allegiance was to the Soviet Union.

I think initially this was pretty much what his statement was. And would I please do what was necessary to get this over with.

Well, during this period of the interview, as far as I recall, he was standing. And he may have seated himself some time later in it. But I think for the initial part of the interview, he remained standing and declined to take a seat.

When I began to question him, he then rejoined with words to the effect, "I know what" or "I have been told what you are going to ask me, you are going to try to talk me out of this, and don't waste your time, please let's get on with the business."

I then asked him--I continued to probe and see where I could find a chink in his armor some place.

And I think that the initial chink which I found was regarding his relatives and place of residence in the United States.

I had his passport. I don't recall whether he handed it to me, though he probably did, or whether I asked him for it.

I noted that on the inside of the cover page of his passport his home address had been crossed out.

When I asked him where he lived, he declined to tell me. When I asked him about his relatives--I had noted from his passport that he was 20 years old. When I asked him about his relatives, he also said this was none of my business, and would I please get on with the business.

Well, I told him at that time, or fairly early in the interview, having found this kind of chink I could work on, I told him that I would have to know certainly where he lived in the United States in order to do anything else with his case.

At that stage, he kind of hemmed and hawed a bit and said--well, I live at so and so. And from there on it opened the crack a little bit, and I found his mother also lived at that--that this was the address of his mother, and probing further I found out about his Marine background, and that he had been recently discharged.

I questioned him a bit about where he had applied for his passport, and how he had come to the Soviet Union, and had he gone home to see his mother, and things of this sort.

Some of these questions he answered, and some he didn't. However, he did not seem quite, as I recall--quite so adamant about refusing this kind of question as he did about questions closer to the bone. That is, what knowledge do you have of Marxism, or where did you first come across this, or did you meet someone in the Marines?

Representative FORD. Did you go into those questions in your probing with him?

Mr. SNYDER. Oh, yes; this sort of question he parried. I won't say he parried them--he simply refused to answer them. The only thing which he did say in the interview was "I am a Marxist." And I recall telling him then in a jocular vein, which evoked no response, that he was going to be a very lonesome man in the Soviet Union.

But I found at that point, and from there on, that for all I could determine he was completely humorless. And this was my impression of him on the other occasions on which I saw him. He was intense and humorless.

Representative FORD. What prompted the breakup of the interview, or the meeting?

Mr. SNYDER. Well, the interview finally broke up when I couldn't get any more out of him.

Representative FORD. Was he satisfied or dissatisfied with the result of his conference with you?

Mr. SNYDER. I think he was dissatisfied, if anything. I think he had come in there to renounce his citizenship, and had found himself thwarted. It is quite possible, though, this is reading into it things which were not necessarily evident to me at the time. It is quite possible that this was to be his big moment on the stage of history as far as he was concerned. He may have contemplated this for some time, as he said--and thus my refusal at that time to complete his renunciation may have been a hurdle which he had been totally unprepared for.

Representative FORD. Did he demand at any time that this was a right he had to renounce his citizenship, and demand why you would not permit him to proceed?

Mr. SNYDER. Well, I cannot really reconstruct our conversations on that line. But I clearly pointed out to him his right. And he did decline, as I recall, to have me read the law to him. He said he was familiar with it, or something, so that I need not read the law to him. So I pointed out, I believe, at that time he had a right, as any citizen has a right to give up his citizenship if he so desires.

That other consideration is that the consul has a certain obligation towards the individual, and also towards his family, to see that a person--or that the consul at least does not aid and encourage an individual, and particularly a 20-year-old individual, to commit an irrevocable act on the spur of the moment or without adequate thought.

But I told him in any event that the consulate was closed that afternoon, that I had no secretary there to prepare the papers, and that if he would come back during normal business hours I would, of course, go through with it.

So I don't think that he left the room happy--if I can use that term--in his attitude towards me.

I recall probing a bit on the subject of the formation of his attitudes towards Marxism. I developed at this time the impression that he really had no knowledgeable background at all of Marxism. I think I asked him if he could tell me a little bit about the theory of labor value, or something like that, and he hadn't the faintest notion of what I was talking about--I mean something basic to Marxism. And I probed around a bit as to the sources of his attitudes. And I think the only thing he told me at the time was that he had been doing some reading, and that is about as far as I got. On that subject, he simply would not be drawn out.

Representative FORD. Did you ask him anything about his knowledge of the Russian language? Did he volunteer anything?

Mr. SNYDER. Yes; I did ask him a bit about that. He said he had been studying Russian. And, again, I had the impression--I don't recall--I may have spoken some Russian to him--but I at least formed the impression that he did not know very much Russian. I don't think he could have gotten along on his own in Russian society. I don't think he could have done more than buy a piece of bread, maybe.

Representative FORD. Did he converse with any other member of the staff at the Embassy, to your knowledge, during the time of this first visit?

Mr. SNYDER. No, no; at this time he definitely did not. And I don't think that he did during the time I was there--unless it was simply a passing word with the receptionist, or something of this sort.

But as far as I know, he had no knowledgeable conversation with anyone there.

Actually, there were only--well, when he first came there were only two officers, McVickar and myself, and at the time I left, three officers, with whom he might have talked. And it is inconceivable that either of the other two officers would have talked to him, knowing my interest in the case, or if I were not there somebody would have done so without making a memo for the file and for me of the conversation.

Representative FORD. In retrospect, assuming the tragic events that did transpire last year didn't take place, and this circumstance was presented to you again in the Embassy in Moscow, would you handle the case any differently?

Mr. SNYDER. No; I don't think so, Mr. Ford. You mean in terms of would I have taken his renunciation? No; I think not.

Representative FORD. In other words, you would have put him off, or stalled him off, in this first interview, make him come back again?

Mr. SNYDER. Yes; I would have.

(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.)

Mr. SNYDER. Particularly, since he was a minor. Normally, it would have been, I think, my practice to do this in any event, though. Obviously no two cases are alike, and the consul must decide. But particularly in the case of a minor, I could not imagine myself writing out the renunciation form and having him sign it, on the spot, without making him leave my office and come back at some other time, even if it is only a few hours intervening.

Representative FORD. In one of the despatches I believe you sent to Washington, you indicated that you had informed the press--I don't recall what exhibit that is.

Mr. SNYDER. I think I said, "Press informed."

Mr. COLEMAN. Commission Exhibit No. 910, sir.

Representative FORD. You say, "Press informed." Is that the same as informing the press?

Mr. SNYDER. No; this simply----

Representative FORD. What is the difference?