Chapter XII: Front Matter (12)

Mr. NICHOLAS said, the gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. AMES) seldom spoke without casting some denunciation against that House. He had, however, allowed that the PRESIDENT had done, with respect to this fleet, all that any gentleman had charged him with doing; he had even put the case stronger than any other person had put it; for he had said that the Executive had determined to build the vessels of a larger size than had been contemplated by the Legislature, in order to be an overmatch for any other frigate. All this, said Mr. N., may be right, and the approbation he gave this conduct, was a proof the gentleman thought so; all he had to say was, that it was not legal; it might be patriotic, and be done with an intention to serve the country; the PRESIDENT might understand the interests of the country better than they; but it was a conduct which would not meet with the same approbation from him that it met with from the gentleman from Massachusetts. That gentleman had also said that a law imposed a duty upon the House to find the means for carrying it into effect. Were they not, then, to be called upon for money to man the frigates? He asked those gentlemen whether the PRESIDENT had not a right to man the frigates, and if so, whether they should not be _obliged_ to find the money?

The powers of this House to control appropriations, had, however, already been settled. It was, indeed, an absurdity to call a body a Legislature, and at the same time deny them a control over the public purse; if this were not so, where would be the use of going through the forms of that House with a money bill? The Executive might as well draw upon the Treasury at once for whatever sums he might stand in need of. A doctrine like this would be scouted even in despotic countries.

And what was all this power that so much alarmed the gentleman from Massachusetts? It was merely a negative power to refuse to do what they thought it would be mischievous to do. Mr. N. said there was a very fashionable doctrine of throwing all power into the hands of the Executive. If there were to be extremes, however, he believed an excess of power would at least be as safe in their hands as in those of the Executive; and if this were his opinion, and the ground upon which he acted, the gentleman from Massachusetts never failed to take an opposite direction. He never thought any Executive power too great.

Mr. PARKER remarked, that it had been said the frigates would carry 62 guns; it might have been possible to have made them so, but they were no more than a large sized 44-gun frigate. They might be a little larger than any other of that number of guns, but not so much. It was true they were not at first contemplated to be so large, but strong reasons were offered for making them of the present size; the expense was not increased by the increase of size, in proportion to their usefulness. He therefore himself approved of what the PRESIDENT had done; and, if he had had the management of the business, he should have done the same. It had been doubted whether the sum proposed to be granted would not only finish, but equip and man the vessels. If the gentleman who had these doubts would refer to the report which had been made on the subject, he would find that $220,000 would be required for that purpose; the $172,000 proposed would barely make them ready for sea in other respects.

The gentleman from Pennsylvania, (Mr. GALLATIN,) who was generally very correct in his statements, had supposed that if the frigates were finished, the PRESIDENT might go on to man them without consulting the Legislature upon the occasion; and, to show the possibility of doing this, he had alluded to his having built a frigate for the Algerines without the approbation of Congress. He lamented the situation in which we stood with that country, but he believed the building of the frigate was necessary. The Western insurrection, and the law-suits in London had also been named, which he should not stop to notice.

In answer to the gentleman from Pennsylvania, he would say, that if the PRESIDENT could man the vessels and send them to sea independent of Congress, he might also finish them without their aid; but he did not believe he would place himself in the same situation with respect to them as if he had to do with a foreign nation. In relation to foreign nations, he had great power; but, if he went beyond his power with respect to internal regulations, he would be liable to impeachment, and he would be one of the first to promote an impeachment, were such to be his conduct.

Mr. AMES said, he understood the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. NICHOLAS) to say, that the conduct of the Executive was illegal; but certainly if a frigate was estimated to cost $12,000 and it cost $15,000, the expenditure of the additional $3,000 was not illegal.

Mr. NICHOLAS said, he had made use of the gentleman's own words with respect to the change in the plan of building the frigates, which he had called illegal.

Mr. AMES said, as to the size of the vessels, that was Executive business. The gentleman from Virginia (Mr. VENABLE) seemed to take the observation which he had made with a degree of sensibility perfectly natural, because it went to touch the power which he had claimed as a member of that House. The gentleman said, "Here I intrench myself behind my privileges." Nothing was said about the public good; all was self.

And was it to be considered, he asked, that they enjoyed the powers committed to them in their own right, as barons of empire, as sovereign despots? Or was the power placed in them to be exercised like other duties, according to justice and propriety? He believed no one would deny that the latter was the truth.

How did the matter stand? They had attempted to repeal a law, but another branch of the Legislature had refused to accede to the repeal; of course it could not be effected. Were they then to act as if the law had been repealed? Yes, say gentlemen, we will refuse to appropriate the money since we think the thing unnecessary. He hoped, however, the day would soon come (as melancholy would be the period until it did arrive) when this power of refusing an appropriation to carry an existing law into effect, should no longer be countenanced by a majority of that House.

Mr. VENABLE was of opinion, that if the gentleman from Massachusetts had only the public good in view, which he had spoken of, he could have had no inducement to have gone into the arguments which he had introduced on this occasion. He could assure that gentleman that he felt himself as strongly bound to consider the public good in all his conduct as he could be. He believed no instance could be named in which he had not consulted that interest. As to what was, or was not, calculated for the public good, he must be left at liberty to judge for himself. But the gentleman had not put the business on this ground, but because gentlemen differed in opinion from others, they were charged with assuming absolute authority, with principles of despotism, overturning the Government, &c.

Mr. V. said, it was his opinion, that in all laws which came before that House, every member had a full right to say yea or nay, for which they were not accountable to that gentleman, or to any other. The other branches of Government had also the same power. Indeed, the other House had exercised this right in negativing the repeal of the law relative to the manning of these vessels. He trusted both Houses would always continue to assert their right thus to use their discretion and privilege.

Mr. AMES said, he had not charged that House with usurping power, or breaking down the other branches of Government; nor did he say they had not a discretion; but that their discretion ought to be regulated by duty.

Mr. SWANWICK said, amidst all the foreign objections which had been urged against this appropriation, he wished the act passed last session to be referred to. [Mr. S. read an extract from it.] Here, in April last, said he, it is provided that the frigates shall be finished, and yet now gentlemen wished the House to come to a conclusion only to half finish them. What, he asked, would the world think of such a versatility of conduct?

Mr. KITCHELL thought, if they meant to get through the business which lay before them, it was time they disposed of this question. He thought the debate upon it had been sufficiently long.

Mr. BRENT said, when this subject first came before the committee, he had determined to give the sum necessary to complete them; nor had he ever wavered on the subject, until he heard the ground which had been taken by the gentleman from Massachusetts, (Mr. AMES.) He did most feelingly participate in the sentiments expressed by his colleague (Mr. VENABLE) on the occasion. It was really difficult to know what was the amount of his doctrines. In the first instance, he understood the gentleman to rise for two purposes, viz: to justify the Executive from certain charges which had been brought against him, and to show the obligation which the House lay under to grant the money.

In the first place, the gentleman said the Executive had been charged with violating the law; and, when he went into the subject, he understood him to say, as his colleague understood him, that the Executive had changed the plan; he understood him to say, that though Congress had ordered 44-gun frigates, he had ordered 74's, which remark he concluded by expressing his approbation of the PRESIDENT's conduct. If he admitted that the Executive had violated the law, and yet felicitated him upon having done so, he might enjoy his pleasure, he would not participate with him.

With respect to the second part of his observations, as to the absolute necessity under which every member lay to vote for the sum required for finishing the frigates, because the building of them was directed by law, this was a most important point. He thought this involved one of the most valuable principles which that House possessed, and which should never be lost sight of, viz: the right of every member to exercise his discretion upon every question, appropriations as well as others, which came before him. Did not the gentleman know that the most solemn decision had taken place last session on this subject, by a large majority? Indeed, said he, this sentiment was so ingrafted in the constitution that the House could not divest themselves of it; for the gentleman to say they did not possess it, was to make a dead letter of their privileges. There could be no doubt on the subject; and it was a sacred and essential principle which would go further to preserve our liberties than any other which they possessed. He trusted, therefore, they should guard it with special care.

Mr. GALLATIN said, he did not mean to follow the gentleman from Massachusetts in what he had said on this subject, because he had not felt the force of what he had advanced, nor very well understood what he meant. Both his meaning and his motive for bringing this subject before them to-day were to him mysterious. He had brought before them the Treaty question anew, and it would be recollected what were the feelings of the House on that occasion; but he could see no relation which it bore to the present question; and though a number of members in that House had asserted that they were bound to appropriate money to carry a treaty into effect, he did not believe they were ready to say the same with respect to laws.

The gentleman from Massachusetts had said, that if they put a meaning upon the constitution in this respect different from him, that they arrogated the supreme power to themselves. Did not he know that the doctrine applied to the Senate as well as to that House? and did he not see that that would be a check upon the abuse of it in either House, since it was a weapon which both could use?

The gentleman had said they were bound to obey the law. Bound to obey what law? The law for authorizing the building of the three frigates? He did not understand how this law was to bind them. This was a mere administrative law, which did not extend to the citizens of the United States, but gave power to the PRESIDENT to do a certain act; therefore, as citizens, they had nothing to do with that law, except they were to obey it by appropriating the money necessary to carry it into effect. Yet the gentleman allowed there might be cases in which it would be right to use discretion in the appropriation of money. For his part, he did not understand the being bound and not bound at the same time; to have discretion and no discretion. He wished either that the one or the other opinion might be adopted; and that they might be told that they had, or that they had not, a right to exercise discretion in the appropriation of money. If this exercise were to be allowed in any case, why could it not be allowed in the present? He wondered, therefore, that gentlemen in favor of this motion should have touched upon this ground. He agreed with the gentleman that they had this discretion, and that it ought to be used with caution, and not upon trifling occasions. But he conceived this to be one of those occasions in which it was necessary for those opposed to a Naval Establishment, to vote against this appropriation. He meant against the appropriation in its extent. It was because he considered a Naval Establishment as highly injurious to the interests of this country, he should vote against every measure which had a tendency to produce it. That gentleman, and others who thought differently, would vote accordingly.

Mr. G. moved an amendment, viz: that before the word "frigates," to add "the hulls of." On the question, ayes 45, noes 44--the Chairman giving his vote against the amendment, it was not carried. It was then put in the original form, to finish the frigates, the sum of ---- dollars, and carried--ayes 54.

The question on the blank being filled with $172,000 was then put, and carried--ayes 47.

Mr. GALLATIN moved to add an item to pay the bounty of one hundred dollars which they had agreed should be paid to every officer discharged from the military service in consequence of the regulations which had taken place in the establishment.

This item was filled up with three thousand dollars.

Mr. GALLATIN moved to add the following words: "which several sums shall be solely applied to the objects for which they are respectively appropriated."

Mr. W. SMITH wished, as much as the gentleman from Pennsylvania, to confine the expenditure to the sums appropriated; but the provision for some objects might fall short, while others might have a surplus, which he thought ought to be made use of to supply deficiencies in cases of emergency. Ever since the establishment of the present Government, the whole appropriation for the Military Establishment had been considered as an aggregate fund out of which any of the objects of that establishment might be paid for; but the expense of each object was now to be confined to the specific appropriation. He was afraid, however well this might look in theory, it would be found very mischievous in practice. He wished the gentleman would amend his proposition by adding, "so far as may be consistent with public exigency;" this would restrict the expenditures, except in unforeseen cases of emergency, to provide for which some latitude of discretion ought to be left to the Executive.

Mr. SITGREAVES did not see the necessity or propriety of the amendment of his colleague, when the House had distributed the appropriations amongst the different objects; as the amendment, he conceived, meant nothing more than the department should not expend any more than the sum appropriated for the different items, which they had no right to do if there were no amendment. Heretofore, when appropriations were made in a mass, the Secretary of War did not feel himself bound to govern himself by the estimate which he had given in, but by particularizing the different items, the former evil was corrected.

Mr. GALLATIN said, if the fact was exactly as it had been stated by his colleague, his amendment might be unnecessary, but the Treasury Department had not acted upon the principle which he had stated. They had, notwithstanding the distribution of the appropriation, thought themselves at liberty to take the money from an item where there was a surplus, and apply it to another, where it was wanted. And when this was objected to, as taking from the Legislature their appropriating power, they answered that the Legislature had entered so much into detail that they could not attend to their directions. They had, last session, made the appropriations more specific than at present, yet the Secretary of the Treasury, in a letter written to the House during this session, said, "that it was well known to have been a rule since the establishment of the Government, that the appropriations for the Military Establishment were considered as general grants of money, liable to be issued to any of the objects included under that department." Therefore, unless this amendment was introduced, it would leave the power as before. In order to make the business more easy, all the contingent expenses were appropriated in one sum.

The object of this amendment, said Mr. G., was that no part of the pay of the Army should go to the Quartermaster's Department, &c., and that none of them should go to the building or equipping the frigates; but if this were not the case, money might be found to get the frigates to sea from the appropriations for the Military Department, if the PRESIDENT should think it necessary so to apply it. As to the amendment, it would do away the intention of it altogether.

Mr. HARPER was against the amendment. He thought the Department ought to be at liberty, in case of an appropriation proving deficient, to have recourse to other funds where there might be a surplus, and as none would be taken, except where there was a surplus, he could see no objection to this being allowed. Indeed, for want of such a privilege very serious inconveniences might arise to the service, in case of accident or unforeseen events.

Mr. GALLATIN said, the law did not operate in the manner which the gentleman last up supposed. They had lately voted a sum of forty thousand dollars to make good a deficiency of last year, which had been used for some other purpose; in consequence the deficiency fell upon the pay of the Army, although that could not increase, because the number of men was never increased; it might be less, as the nominal, not the actual number of men was appropriated for.

Mr. KITTERA thought the amendment a bad one. Suppose, said he, a boat should be overset with tents in the lake, or a magazine blown up, the losses could not be repaired, because, though there might be surplus sums in the Treasury from other items in the establishment, yet, if this amendment prevailed, they could not be touched. He thought this would be the effect; he was against innovations.

The amendment was put and carried, there being fifty-four votes in favor of it.

The committee then rose, and the House took up the amendments.

And then the main question, "to finish the frigates ---- dollars," was taken by yeas and nays, as follows:

YEAS.--Fisher Ames, Abraham Baldwin, Theophilus Bradbury,
Richard Brent, Daniel Buck, Dempsey Burges, Joshua Coit,
William Cooper, William Craik, Samuel W. Dana, James
Davenport, Henry Dearborn, George Dent, George Ege, William
Findlay, Abiel Foster, Dwight Foster, Nathaniel Freeman,
jr., Ezekiel Gilbert, Nicholas Gilman, Henry Glenn,
Chauncey Goodrich, Roger Griswold, William B. Grove, Robert
Goodloe Harper, Carter B. Harrison, Thomas Hartley, John
Heath, William Hindman, John Wilkes Kittera, Edward
Livingston, Samuel Lyman, Francis Malbone, John Milledge,
Frederick A. Muhlenberg, William Vans Murray, John
Nicholas, Alexander D. Orr, Josiah Parker, Elisha R.
Potter, John Read, Samuel Sewall, Samuel Sitgreaves,
Jeremiah Smith, Nathaniel Smith, Isaac Smith, William
Smith, Thomas Sprigg, John Swanwick, Zephaniah Swift,
George Thatcher, Richard Thomas, Mark Thompson, John A. Van
Allen, Philip Van Cortlandt, Joseph B. Varnum, Peleg
Wadsworth, and John Williams.

NAYS.--Theodorus Bailey, David Bard, Thomas Blount, Nathan
Bryan, Samuel J. Cabell, Gabriel Christie, Thomas
Claiborne, John Clopton, Isaac Coles, Jesse Franklin,
Albert Gallatin, James Gillespie, Christopher Greenup,
Andrew Gregg, Wade Hampton, John Hathorn, Jonathan N.
Havens, James Holland, Andrew Jackson, George Jackson,
Matthew Locke, William Lyman, Samuel Maclay, Nathaniel
Macon, Andrew Moore, Anthony New, John Patton, John
Richards, Israel Smith, Richard Sprigg, jr., William
Strudwick, and Abraham Venable.

The question to fill the blank with $178,000 was then put and carried--ayes 47, noes 42, and the bill ordered for a third reading to-morrow.

FRIDAY, March 3.

_Call for Statements._

Mr. GALLATIN said, he wished to propose to the House three resolutions, calling for statements relative to the War Department, which he wished to be laid before the House at the next session. They had heard it said upon that floor, by gentlemen who were considered to be well acquainted with the subject, that many expenses had taken place in that Department which ought to have been checked. Conceiving a check of this kind to be necessary, and knowing the expense of the Military Department was increasing from year to year, beyond what the increase in the number of troops would warrant, it was proper to lay the foundation of an inquiry into the subject. Indeed, having just passed a pretty severe law relative to the Receivers of Public Money, and understanding that the Secretary of the Treasury had a long list of delinquents, he was desirous of taking some steps in the business. From these considerations, he offered the following resolutions for acceptance:

"_Resolved_, That the Secretary of the Treasury be directed
to lay before the House of Representatives, within the
first week of January next, abstracts of the accounts of
all paymasters, quartermasters, contractors, agents for the
purchase of supplies, and generally of all the Receivers of
Public Moneys, paid from the Treasury from the 1st of
January, 1791, to the 1st of January, 1797, on account of
the Military Establishment, so as to exhibit a detailed
statement of the whole amount of moneys thus expended to
that period; and whether any of the accounts be not finally
settled; and shall lay before the House an estimate of
moneys not accounted for.

"_Resolved_, That the Secretary of the Treasury be directed
to lay, at the same time, before the House of
Representatives similar abstracts of the accounts of all
the Receivers of Public Money expended for the building of
the frigates.

"_Resolved_, That it shall be the duty of the Secretary of
the Treasury to lay before the House of Representatives,
within the last week of January in each year, a statement
of money expended for the Military Establishment during the
next preceding year, distinguishing the sums expended under
each head, for which specific appropriations have been
made, and an estimate of the probable unsettled demands in
relation to each of those heads."

The resolutions were severally agreed to.

EVENING SESSION.

_Military and Naval Appropriations._

The bill appropriating money for the Military and Naval Establishments, was received from the Senate with an amendment, proposing to do away the restriction which had been introduced into the bill to confine the expenditure of money to the specific objects for which each sum is appropriated.

Mr. DANA hoped the House would recede from the amendment.

Mr. GALLATIN said that, by the constitution, no money was to be granted but by a law passed in the regular mode. Now, said Mr. G., this is not by law, if, after a certain sum is granted for one item, it be not used for that purpose, but put to some other object. This was certainly according to the spirit of the constitution, and if you do not strictly abide by that, you may as well set aside the constitution, and say we will appropriate $6,000,000 for the support of Government for the present year. If we mean to carry the constitution into effect we must reject the amendment.

Mr. SITGREAVES observed, that his opinion on this point was, that the House had a constitutional power to depart from any identifying of articles to sums granted, and that departure grew out of necessity; for the extreme embarrassment which would attend the practice of a strict adherence, would render it impracticable. But, as he did not mean to stand responsible for the motion, he should be satisfied with calling for the yeas and nays; which were agreed to be taken.

Mr. NICHOLAS thought, that when gentlemen went on supporting such unlimited measures as had lately taken place, and voting such a waste of money, it would be very dangerous. When we see large sums voted for an army and navy in time of peace, said he, it would justify us in adopting some regulation to prevent it. The difference between the operation of this and the other mode is, that in this you confine your public officers to the identical object for which a sum is appropriated; otherwise they might use what they would call overplus money for any object they might think fit. According to this method, proposed by the Senate, any sum may be taken from any certain object, and placed to any other, which Mr. N. thought too unbounded a power to be placed in the Executive.

Mr. PARKER said, he would not pretend to justify the expenditure on the Military Establishment, but he could not help observing that the casualties to which the forage and clothing, &c., which is transported to our garrisons, are exposed, are very great. Though at peace with the Indians, it is but a temporary one, and we cannot be sure they will not intercept our stores; besides other accidents to which it is exposed, all which make it necessary that the hands of the Executive should not be tied from using the surplusage of some, for the accidental and unforeseen deficiencies of others; without this the Army may be exposed to the most poignant distress, owing to a deficiency in the appropriation, while the Treasury has money in hand as surplus from other objects. Considering the great importance of an appropriation, he hoped gentlemen would not so incline to oppose the bill, especially, said he, when our existence will not, as a Legislative body, be more than four hours, and, in that time, it must pass other authorities before it can be put into effect; if it is lost, the effects will be bad. Mr. P. said he had as many scruples as any gentleman, and would take every measure to preserve the constitution inviolate, but he should be sorry if, under the fear of offending it, the Government should be stopped.

Mr. HEATH.--If my existence was to be but for one moment, I would stand here and oppose this resolution; to let it pass, is precluding the freedom of inquiry into the conduct of our public officers. If we were to commence this loose kind of a way of appropriating, we may go on to do this, that, and the other, until we were too far to stop. Were we to indulge ourselves to go into the wide fields of accident, we might suppose this and that, but our imaginations would have no end. He lamented the shortness of the time they had to discuss it.

Mr. GILBERT acknowledged this was the age of reason, but he was sorry the House should be inclined to adopt an entire new doctrine of privileges. We should not hazard a new position, when it may be attended with the greatest danger; therefore he hoped they would agree with the Senate.

Mr. HARPER thought it would not be very difficult to convince gentlemen who oppose it, that the amendment was calculated to secure the very object they wished. It was not a violation of the constitution, as some gentlemen supposed. He would ask, could not an appropriation be made for the use of the Military Establishment in general terms? Yes, he would answer; else how could an appropriation in general terms have been made for the intercourse with foreign nations? Certainly it could not be unconstitutional to appropriate the overplus of one article to supply the deficiency of another. One moment's reflection, Mr. H. thought, would convince members of the error of a contrary opinion. It might not be safe to do it without law, but here is a law allowing it. The whole must suffer if the War Department is deficient, which cannot be avoided if one is not to assist another branch, for it is scarce possible to guard against every contingency. He thought the amendment beneficial in the highest degree, and without it, would stop the War Department in its operations. He hoped no delay would take place, as it endangered the bill.

Mr. VARNUM said, that notwithstanding all that gentlemen might produce to prove the necessity of giving the Executive large powers, yet it was dangerous; he instanced that, if the Executive were determined to man and equip the frigates for sea, they would have power to do it from money appropriated, and intended for other purposes; thus it was transferring a power, solely vested in the Legislature, into the Executive Department. He thought it was an infringement on the constitution; it was putting the power where it never was intended to be; although he had great respect for that department, yet he did not wish to see its powers extended too far. A gentleman had intimated he should not wish the bill to be altered, if he was sure there would not be war with the Indians. He would answer that there could not be a war until the Legislature met again.

Mr. V. said, that there was one-fifth more money appropriated than could be used before the next meeting of Congress, for there would be two months of the present year's appropriation, during any part of which another bill might be passed.

Mr. SWANWICK thought there was no danger of the bill being lost; it was necessary to discuss a principle which appeared to admit of danger; it was throwing the whole of the money to the mercy of the Treasury Department.

Mr. PAGE said he should vote for the amendment, but he rose to express his disapprobation of it, and he should have been glad if there was time to make another bill. We must either suffer the community to abide under great disadvantages, or ourselves. If they could exist, politically, he said he should be happy to destroy that bill. He must acknowledge that it was crammed down his throat.

Mr. LIVINGSTON said, that the reasons urged by the gentleman from Massachusetts, instead of the end he proposed, would have a contrary effect. Mr. L. believed that this amendment had a tendency to lessen the privileges of the House; believing this, no object of convenience, no view to the general opinion, should ever prevent him voting against it. He believed it pregnant with mischief. The Civil and Military Departments would be too easily connected; if the one wanted assistance, while the Treasury had money in hand it would be supplied. He thought the House had voted sufficient to answer every purpose intended, and he believed, whatever specious arguments may be used, the House would not recede. If any evil attended, he was willing to take his part of the blame; but he was not apprehensive of any.

Mr. W. LYMAN hoped it would not pass, as it was full of danger and bad principles.

Mr. W. SMITH said, the appropriation to the Military Establishment had always been considered a general grant of money; therefore it would introduce no new principles, but the manner of this bill, passed in this House the day before the close of the session, and sent up to the Senate the very day of the adjournment.

Mr. S. said gentlemen talked about the constitution, but he thought they had wrong ideas of the evils of this business: it was not whether they gave too much power to their officers, but the Military Establishment could not go on; then the PRESIDENT would be obliged to alarm the whole nation, and incur a vast expense to get the Congress together, and all for want of due time and regulations: and now we must cram it down the throats of the Senate. Surely gentlemen should have some moderation, and not be so hightoned as to prevent any other branch of the Legislature from exercising their powers as well as us.

On the question being taken to concur with this amendment, the yeas and nays stood, 38 to 52, as follows:

YEAS.--Theophilus Bradbury, Daniel Buck, Dempsey Burges,
Joshua Coit, Wm. Cooper, William Craik, Samuel W. Dana,
James Davenport, George Dent, George Ege, Abiel Foster,
Dwight Foster, Ezekiel Gilbert, Nicholas Gilman, Chauncey
Goodrich, Roger Griswold, Robert Goodloe Harper, Thomas
Hartley, William Hindman, John Wilkes Kittera, George
Leonard, Samuel Lyman, Francis Malbone, John Page, Josiah
Parker, Samuel Sewall, Samuel Sitgreaves, Nathaniel Smith,
Isaac Smith, William Smith, Zephaniah Swift, George
Thatcher, Richard Thomas, John E. Van Allen, Peleg
Wadsworth, and John Williams.

NAYS.--Theodorus Bailey, Abraham Baldwin, David Bard,
Thomas Blount, Richard Brent, Nathan Bryan, Samuel J.
Cabell, Gabriel Christie, Thomas Claiborne, John Clopton,
Isaac Coles, Henry Dearborn, William Findlay, Jesse
Franklin, Nathaniel Freeman, jr., Albert Gallatin, James
Gillespie, Christopher Greenup, Andrew Gregg, Wade Hampton,
John Hathorn, Jonathan N. Havens, John Heath, James
Holland, Andrew Jackson, George Jackson, Edward Livingston,
Matthew Locke, William Lyman, Samuel Maclay, Nathaniel
Macon, James Madison, John Milledge, Andrew Moore,
Frederick A. Muhlenberg, Anthony New, John Nicholas,
Alexander D. Orr, John Patten, Elisha R. Potter, John Read,
John Richards, Robert Rutherford, John S. Sherburne,
Thompson J. Skinner, Richard Sprigg, jr., Thomas Sprigg,
William Strudwick, John Swanwick, Joseph B. Varnum, Abraham
Venable, and Richard Winn.

The bill was again sent to the Senate, and was soon after returned with the amendment receded from.

_General Lafayette._

Mr. HARPER moved that a resolution, which he laid on the table yesterday, respecting Major General Lafayette, should be taken up for consideration. The motion was seconded by Mr. W. SMITH. The resolution was in the following words:

"This House, strongly impressed with a just sense of the
important and disinterested services rendered to their
country during the late war by their fellow-citizen, Major
General Lafayette, and deeply regretting the sufferings to
which he is now subjected from a long and rigorous
imprisonment, and which have equally excited their
sympathy, and the ardent wish of their constituents for his
deliverance, do resolve that the President of the United
States be informed, that this House will see with the
highest satisfaction, any measures which he may deem
expedient to adopt towards effecting the restoration of
their said fellow-citizen to liberty."

The question was taken for the House to take it up, and lost--ayes 32, noes 52.

Mr. LIVINGSTON said he had some time been wishing to put forward something similar; he really hoped some negotiation would be carried on to effect his liberation. It would be honorable to this country to interpose in behalf of this man, who has a claim on American service. While suffering for us on his part, let gratitude, and every feeling that can affect the heart, be ours. Abandoned by his own country, and to increase his sufferings, precluded from almost every enjoyment of life, it would be honorable in us to interest ourselves in his behalf, appropriating some small sum which may enable the PRESIDENT to make some progress towards his releasement. Thus, while it is honorable to America, if it has no effect, it may afford some comfort to the unfortunate sufferer, to think he is not forgotten. He then proposed a resolution, not materially varying from that just offered by Mr. HARPER, hoping that the little variation would prevent it suffering a similar fate.

Mr. PARKER said, as it was a personal question, he hoped it would lie on the table.

Mr. COIT thought it a delicate question, and one which ought not to be agitated, and therefore moved the previous question.

Mr. HARTLEY spoke of Mr. PARKER's observing its personality. He answered that the man suffered much for this country, and therefore was entitled to regard. He acknowledged with Mr. COIT, that there was much delicacy in the business, and therefore hoped it would speedily be discussed; it ought not be postponed; the man is now suffering in a most distressing confinement. If any of the soldiers of 1789 were here with whom he was in council, there would not be a dissenting voice to using every exertion. He hoped the House would never forget such brilliant services.

Mr. SWANWICK said, there need not be a dissenting voice, but we ought to be cautious how we multiply our negotiations, as this could not be done without entering into a negotiation with the Emperor of Germany in the regular way. It is not want of respect that should prevent us, but are we provided to go into all the consequences attending a new negotiation? There is a delicacy in it, of which we ought to be careful. There is not the least doubt but the PRESIDENT has as much desire for his release as any gentleman, but he, no doubt, deliberated, and saw the danger of it. Mr. S. said he lamented our foreign negotiations _in toto_. There was no good derived from them, and he could not anticipate any from new ones.

Mr. NICHOLAS said, he felt as much disposition to take measures for his release as any man, but he thought the business undertaken too hastily. Suppose you give instructions to the PRESIDENT, and he does not think proper to act on it, so far from being a compliment to Lafayette, it would hurt his mind, should he hear it had been agitated.

Mr. CLAIBORNE saw no difficulty attending the resolution. He hoped the House would render this essential service to the unfortunate sufferer, if even in the last hour of the Congress.

Mr. CHRISTIE said, it was an improper time to take up the resolution, but as they had to sit there two or three hours longer and no business to do, this might as well occupy the attention of the House as not.

Mr. LIVINGSTON would be sorry to impose a burden upon the country, but he thought this a duty incumbent on them. He hoped gentlemen would openly come forward and avow their sentiments, and not shelter themselves under the previous question. Remember, he came here from the pompous ease of a foreign court; he voluntarily served the cause of America, and bled for her; he, in a great measure, procured the interest which formed the alliance with France in our defence; besides spending a princely fortune in our cause, he asked nothing, nor would accept any compensation for his services: and now he is abandoned to the most dreadful situation possible; some of that compensation, justly due to his services, is refused him as a balm to his former woes by not attempting his release. This is the situation of the man for whom this House is asked only to express their desire for his comfort; this is the man who was met with pleasure in every part of the United States; all the people rejoiced to express their gratitude to him; he was accompanied with testimonials of admiration and thanks from the whole Continent: and now we should not say that we will feel with pleasure measures taken towards obtaining his liberty! We can pity him, and regret his situation, but refuse to lend him the least assistance to soothe his distress. We do not call upon the House to vent its infantine sorrow, to show its womanish pity. No. We call on it to express a will, predominant throughout the United States, in the behalf of this unfortunate man. But it is said that we should get the ill will of the nations who persecuted him. Unless they bid adieu to all the tender feelings of humanity, they never can take offence. It has been also supposed it would be ineffectual; he had no doubt but the Executive would take those measures which would be most effectual and least endangering to the nation; it could not make the situation of the sufferer worse, and if we succeed in procuring his liberty, it would give pleasure to every heart who can sympathize with the distressed, or feel gratitude for high obligations: and if it does not have that happy effect, still we may feel consolation at having done our duty. If these measures were taken, it would illuminate the loathsome horrors of a dungeon the most dreadful; it would sweep away the reproach "that Republicans know no gratitude;" that we, who had his best exertions whilst in prosperity, do not forget him in adversity. Mr. L. said he really believed that if he had not known the principles of liberty here, and helped us in our struggle for it, he would have never existed in misery in the dungeon at Olmutz, and therefore the highest obligations were laid on the United States to exert herself in his behalf.

Mr. HEATH hoped, that, although the gentleman had labored to excite the pathetic, yet he would not charge the House with a want of Republicanism if the measure was not adopted. Mr. H. thought it extremely improper to be introduced in the House. He said the PRESIDENT knew the will of the United States on the subject, and therefore, if he saw proper, he could take it up. He hoped the gentleman would remember this was a complicated case; for, since he had left this country, he had become a citizen of another country. Mr. H. said he felt for his unfortunate situation: he had fought under his banner. We are not to be charged with a want of patriotism and feeling for this suffering hero, because we think it imprudent to interest and involve ourselves in his behalf, merely to indulge the flighty fancy of a few individuals. We might go, said he, and address the PRESIDENT to exert himself as far as he saw proper in his behalf, as a body of individuals, but not as a Legislature.

Mr. W. SMITH could see no kind of impropriety in the measure. It had been said it was a new subject, and, therefore, ought not to be taken up now; but it was not introduced yesterday! Did gentlemen want an age to express an opinion which every member feels--which the whole nation feels? The motion only went to express a wish that measures may be taken according to the judgment of the Executive: if he had a thought or wish to adopt measures, this would encourage him to carry them into effect. Europe might feel a pleasure that we interested ourselves in his behalf. Did he not embark his all for this country? It has been well said, said Mr. S., that if the motion had been made in 1779 or 1780, no previous question would then have been called--no opposition then made. Read the journals of the National Representation for 1780 and 1783: there we find one member from each State was appointed to take leave of him in behalf of the whole. [Mr. S. here read the journals of that time, which insert at length the proceeding, address, and answer, attending the transaction.] There, said he, they expressed their zeal for his future welfare, and gratitude for his favors, accompanying it with a letter to the French King, requesting him to bestow his favors upon him. From the frequent respectful mention made of his services on the journals of the House, there appears to have been much attention paid to his services by Congress. Even the Parliament of Great Britain, he said, had discussed the question of his confinement; and should this House refuse, who are so much obliged by his services? Nothing that had been said, in opposition to it, could convince him but that we were called upon, by every tie of gratitude, to adopt the measure. The satisfaction of knowing that his services are not forgotten may render him more comfortable in his dungeon--may follow him into the deserts of Siberia, or wherever the cruel hand of oppression may send him.

Mr. MADISON did not think there was time to do all the business requisite to render due justice to the motion, and he hoped the House would do more than was intended by the motion. He believed the only regular mode would be to appoint a committee to bring in a bill. He therefore moved that the House go into committee for that purpose.

Mr. SITGREAVES said, according to the motion there was no necessity for this mode, as it was of a nature not to require the aid of another branch of the Legislature; it was quite sufficient if the House passed the resolution. He was sorry to hear the previous question called for to get rid of the subject, but he hoped it would not prevail: he thought this motion required early attention. He said attention was due to LAFAYETTE; America was highly indebted to him. It is a debt of justice, and ought to be paid; and while this House delays to interpose in his behalf he must remain in confinement. Those gentlemen who thought the House ought to interpose should think this is the very time, if any good is intended to be done: he therefore hoped they would not delay.

Mr. HARPER said, if the subject was on the sending an ambassador to negotiate for the liberation of this man, it might with more propriety be opposed. He was surprised that any gentleman in the House should be opposed to expressing a wish for measures to be taken which may prove effectual for that purpose.

When he had no need of our caresses, the United States resounded with his name: he was then met with tokens of respect and congratulation wherever he went. But now, pining under the cruel hand of despotic vengeance in a loathsome dungeon, weighed down by chains, with a scanty allowance; when we view his present, contrasted with his past, situation--embarking from the magnificent splendor of a French court, displeasing his sovereign--embarking himself, and hazarding every thing that was dear to him, in support of American liberty--is this the man, Mr. H. would ask, to whom America said, he should never cease to have her best wishes and endeavors for his good, when, in the most grievous captivity, we refuse to express a desire for a morsel of comfort to his depressed mind! What avail our toasts--our boasted recollections of him, and regret at his fate--if we take not every opportunity to alleviate that distress? But the worst of his misfortunes is not to lie in a dungeon: he is now racked with a fear of being sent into the inhospitable deserts of Siberia, whence is no hope ever to expect his return into the civilized world; and, with this unwelcome intelligence, the American Legislature refuses to express a wish for his deliverance! Who knows but the power in whose custody he is may expect America to interest herself in his favor? And by a pretext like this he might be liberated, or at least his fear of removal dissipated, and his present misery alleviated. Mr. H. said he was sure it would be highly gratifying to the citizens of America to hear of the measure; they had long expected it, and, if undertaken, he had the greatest hopes of its success, in a measure. If it should but tend to soften his present distress, it would be a happiness; but if its effects should be to restore to liberty one to whom America is so much indebted, it would amply repay whatsoever trouble is taken towards its accomplishment.

Mr. W. LYMAN did not doubt of the services of the Marquis Lafayette; he was always the subject of adoration and the toast of this country. Besides, it has made him liberal grants for his services, and he thought there could be no proof that we were wanting in marks of esteem for him. With respect to the motion, Mr. L. asked, to whom was application to be made? Does any gentleman on this floor know who confined him, or by order of what government? No court are willing to avow it. Britain, France, and Prussia disavow it, and he believed the Emperor also. Until that was clear, the measure would be improper. May not the agitation of such a question in the House awaken a jealousy in some of those powers towards us, which may militate to our injury, and injure the man whom the attempt is meant to serve? Gentlemen have depicted his sufferings in very lively colors, said Mr. L., and were it in my power, or were it consistently in the power of the House, I should be very happy to afford relief. Until some of the difficulties in its way were cleared, he said, he should be forced to put his negative to it. He thought gentlemen who saw the matter so necessary, and the way so clear, had reason to reproach themselves for letting it sleep so long, and for having introduced it at the last hour of the session of the Houses.

Mr. HARPER and Mr. LIVINGSTON said that nothing but the constant press of public business had prevented their motions sooner, and they thought there was even now time enough, as it only required the expression of a desire of the House for the object.

Mr. BUCK said the services and sufferings of the Marquis were indelibly written on the hearts of all the citizens of America, and he thought there was no need of that torrent of oratory which had been displayed to affect the feelings of the House. He thought it would prove its weakness to suffer its feelings to predominate. We ought to give a decision only by the force of judgment, after due deliberation; for _feeling_ could not look forward to consequences. Were we implicitly to obey it, we should take many bad steps. Do we not know, said Mr. B., that he is among the persons proscribed by France? and, considering the very brittle situation of our peace with that country at present, we should be induced rather to strengthen than weaken our ties; for the motion goes to authorize the PRESIDENT to take _any_ measures to support Lafayette. This being the situation, we know not where the measures may end, and it would be a serious thing to be plunged in a war with France on that account. He hoped the House would not precipitate the business, but give themselves time to examine the consequences. This, Mr. B. said, had induced him to oppose the motion. Though congenial to his feelings, he therefore should vote for the previous, and against the main question.

Mr. CLAIBORNE was against the previous question. He would hazard any thing for the happiness of a man we owe so much to--who sees, said he, the unfortunate man with his lady and daughter, under all the miseries that despotism and tyranny can inflict, in a wretched dungeon, without even the comforts of life! Here he appealed to the feelings of the members in a very forcible manner, and, with the most bitter invective, ardently wished the destruction of his cruel oppressors. He observed on the uneasiness the members of the House were in if public business detained them half an hour after the usual time of their dinners, and applied the case to this unfortunate man in continual confinement, and after all with miserable fare.

The previous question was then put, "Shall the main question be now put?" and negatived--ayes 25.

Mr. LIVINGSTON then brought forward a similar resolution, which caused very considerable debate, and was at length got rid of by the previous question. The principal objection to the adoption of this motion seemed to be the late period at which it was brought forward. All were agreed as to the merits and the misfortunes of the man, and had the motion been introduced at any other time than on the eve of the rising of the session, there could be little doubt it would have been agreed to by a very large majority.[13]

_Thanks to the Speaker._