Chapter XXVII: Front Matter (27)

But the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. GILES) has no confidence in the Government of this country with respect to its negotiation with France; and in order to try the sincerity of the Executive, he wishes for the papers. Does the gentleman by this mean to give the lie to the Executive? Because in his Message he has told the House that he has given power to our Ministers to settle our disputes with the French Republic, and to "make all reasonable concessions." What more does the gentleman wish? Does he wish unreasonable concessions to be made? Surely he does not. Did any thing appear in the conduct of the French Directory to show that our Ministers were not possessed of ample powers? No; the Directory never knew any thing about their powers, at least so far as any official communications had been received on the subject. There could not, therefore, be any ground upon which the gentleman could rest his suspicions. He hoped, therefore, the amendment would be negatived.

Two or three gentlemen were on the floor together.

The SPEAKER said, the amendment to insert "the instructions to and," would come first under consideration.

Mr. HARPER said, he did not mean at this time to enter into the merits of the present question. It was important, and presented itself in a new light to the House. The original motion he was ready to have voted for; he did not know whether he might not vote for this. But he wished time to consider of it. He therefore moved the further consideration of this question be postponed till Monday.

Mr. ALLEN had no objection to the postponement, except the mover of the amendment would permit it to be amended by a modification of this sort: "Such parts of those communications as were communicated to the French Government."

The question for postponement was put and carried--47 to 41.

MONDAY, April 23.

The SPEAKER attended to-day, and took the chair.

_Stephen Cantrill._

On motion of Mr. W. C. CLAIBORNE, the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the report of the Secretary of War on the petition of Stephen Cantrill; and the report and papers accompanying it were read. The report was as follows:

"The Secretary of War, to whom was referred the petition of
Stephen Cantrill, respectfully reports: That the services
for which the petitioner prays compensation to himself and
a company which he commanded, were performed in the month
of September, 1794, on an expedition conducted by Major
James Orr, into the Lower Cherokee country, which issued in
the destruction of two considerable Indian towns, the
Running Water and Nickajack, the killing of a number of
Indians, and the taking about twenty prisoners.

"That the report of Major Orr to Governor Blount, dated at
Knoxville, the 24th September, 1794, shows, that this
expedition marched on the 7th of the same month, and was
ordered by General Robertson, of Mero district.

"That the orders of General Robertson for this purpose were
afterwards communicated by himself to Gov. Blount, in a
letter dated the 8th October, 1794, detailing his reasons
for the order.

"That letters from Governor Blount to the Secretary of War,
dated the 22d of September and 2d of October, 1794, as well
as the copy of an order, which he states to have been the
last given by him to General Robertson, previous to this
expedition, evince that the Governor did not sanction the
measure.

"That the Secretary of War, previous to Major Orr's
expedition, in a letter to Governor Blount, dated the 26th
July, 1794, strongly discouraged the idea of destroying the
lower towns of the Cherokees, in the following words, viz:
'With respect to destroying the lower towns, however
rigorous such a measure might be, or whatever good
consequences might result from it, I am instructed
specially by the President to say, that he does not
conceive himself authorized to direct any such measure,
more especially as the whole subject was before the last
session of Congress, who did not think proper to authorize
or direct offensive operations.' And that as soon as the
destruction of the Running Water and Nickajack was
communicated to him, the Secretary strongly disavowed any
participation in the business, by his letter to Governor
Blount, dated the 22d of December, 1794, in these words,
viz: 'The destruction of the lower Cherokee towns stands
upon its own footing; that it was not authorized is
certain.'

"That the President at all times, as well before as after
this expedition, endeavored to confine the protection of
the frontier of the South-western Territory to defensive
operations, and to restrain from those which were
offensive.

"That, on the whole, it appears, the services for which
compensation is prayed by the petition of Stephen Cantrill,
were performed on an expedition, offensive, unauthorized,
and in direct violation of the orders from the President to
Governor Blount, by whom also they were not sanctioned.

"The documents referred to, and others connected with the
subject, are herewith presented, numbered from No. 1 to 9,
inclusive.

"All which is respectfully submitted to the House of
Representatives.

"JAMES McHENRY.

"WAR OFFICE, _April, 1798_."

The reading being finished, Mr. W. C. CLAIBORNE said, that, in his opinion, this claim was founded on the principles of justice; and he trusted every member who had attended to the reading of the documents, must accord with him in opinion, that the Nickajack expedition, undertaken by Major James Orr, in 1794, into the Lower Cherokee country, was authorized by General Robertson; and it remains now to be decided, whether soldiers shall not be entitled to pay until they have previously assured themselves of the legitimate authority of their commanding officer. At the time when this expedition was set on foot, a war raged between the United States and the Cherokee nation of Indians, the horrors of which bore hard upon the district of Mero; the very existence of the settlement was threatened; scarcely a day passed without some one or other of the inhabitants, or of their acquaintance, being murdered. Information was received that the Indians were embodied in order to carry the war into the settlement. What was the General to do? Was he to stand still without making any attempt to avert the danger? The safety of the people required him to act, and he struck the first blow, which was a defensive measure authorized by the usage of all nations. The citizens on this expedition obeyed the command of their officer; they did not think it necessary to inquire by what authority he acted; all for them to be assured of was, that he was an officer of the United States, and this they well knew, as this was not the first time they had served under him. Without a discipline of this kind no military operation could be carried on. General Robertson acted also under the authority of Governor Blount, who acted under the orders of the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. Having then performed this duty--a duty, too, which put an end to a war which might have cost the United States a million of dollars--he trusted the petitioners would be compensated for their services. The amount, he believed, would not be more than about $4,000, as the party was out only twelve days. To effect this purpose, he proposed the following resolution for the adoption of the committee:

"_Resolved_, That the proper officers be directed to settle
the accounts of the militia who served on the expedition
commanded by Major James Orr against the Cherokee Indians,
in the year 1794."

This resolution was agreed to without opposition. The committee rose, and after some few observations, it was agreed to in the House, and a committee appointed to report a bill accordingly.

TUESDAY, April 24.

Mr. W. C. C. CLAIBORNE, from the committee appointed, reported a bill directing the payment of a detachment of militia, for services performed in the year 1794, under Major James Orr, which was twice read and committed.

_Provisional Army._

A bill from the Senate, authorizing the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES to raise a provisional army of 20,000 men, was read the first time; and upon motion made to read it a second time,

Mr. NICHOLAS objected to the second reading of the bill, as he believed it possessed a principle which could not be assented to. He did not believe it was necessary to pass a bill of this sort under any possible modification. The highest act of Legislative power was, by it, proposed to be transferred to the Executive, viz: the power to raise an army, which he was to exercise at his pleasure. If an army was necessary, the Legislature ought to raise it; but he did not think it was necessary at present. Indeed, when discussing the bill for providing a naval armament, gentlemen had said that members had been willing to make preparations for defence on the land, where there was no danger, but were unwilling to do it at sea, where the greatest might be expected. He did not believe there could be any necessity for going into a measure of this kind at the present session. In case of predatory attack, the militia would be equal to repelling them. Mr. N. said he lived in a part of the country perhaps more defenceless than any other; but, so far as he or his constituents were concerned, he did not wish for a force of this kind. He was willing to confide for defence on the militia of the country.

Mr. OTIS thought it very extraordinary that the gentleman from Virginia should endeavor to surprise a part of this House into a decision upon this bill in this stage of it. He hoped he would consent to its taking the usual course. The gentleman had gone into the merits of the bill; he could not follow him, because he had not heard it read; so far as he did hear it, he was of opinion that the gentleman had anticipated objections which did not lie against it. He seemed to suppose that this bill declared that a standing army should be raised. It does no such thing; it only declares that if existing circumstances shall make it necessary, then the PRESIDENT shall raise an army not exceeding a certain number of men. It may happen that the necessity may not exist; but the gentleman from Virginia must be able to fathom the intentions of France further than he could pretend to do, if he could say that no such necessity would exist. If what was said by the agents of that Government to our Envoys could be relied on, there was a direct threat to ravage our coasts. He hoped, however, no invasion would take place; but, when he said this, he calculated upon the French acting as reasonable beings, but perhaps he calculated delusively. Indeed, they are now threatening the invasion of a country, where one may suppose they would have as little chance of succeeding as in this country; and was the idea, then, to be so much scoffed at, as not to suffer a bill, intending to provide against it, to be read a second time? If the arms of our citizens were to be tied up, and our militia were many of them without arms, with what should we oppose such an attempt, if it were made? What, said he, is to prevent Victor Hugues sending over two or three frigates? It had been said that he expected open war, and that he was ready for it. In short, he thought it would be the most disgraceful conduct that ever was attempted in that House, if the bill should be rejected without a second reading. It would be in vain to talk of unanimity, if a bill from the Senate was to be treated in this way. If the gentleman persisted in his motion, he trusted he would find himself nearly alone.

Mr. GALLATIN wondered that the gentleman from Massachusetts should be so greatly surprised at a motion of this kind, because if he had attended to the rules of the House, he would have found that it was a course expressly prescribed by them. It had been acted upon before during this session. The principle, he said, was well understood. When a member disapproves of the principle of a bill altogether, and does not wish to go at all into a discussion of the detail, he moves to reject it before it goes to a second reading.

This bill goes to authorize the PRESIDENT to raise an army. He did not know what was meant by a provisional army. He did not find any thing said in the Constitution of the United States relative to provisional armies, or of giving the PRESIDENT power to raise armies. He found mentioned there no other kind of defence than an army and militia. It says Congress shall raise and support an army, not provide for the raising of an army; but this bill is to enable the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES to raise an army. The constitution has declared that the raising of an army is placed in Congress, but this bill goes to declare that this power shall be vested by law in the PRESIDENT. That is the principle of the bill: and if Congress were once to admit the principle that they have a right to vest in the PRESIDENT powers placed in their hands by the constitution, that instrument would become a piece of blank paper. If it were to be admitted in one case, it would be admitted in another; and, if admitted in one department, it might be admitted in another. The power to raise taxes, he said, is contained in the same article of the constitution which says Congress shall raise armies. And if they could delegate the power of raising an army to the PRESIDENT, why not do the same with respect to the power of raising taxes? He supposed the House would next hear of provisional taxes, to be raised if the PRESIDENT shall think fit. Mr. G., therefore, thought the principle inadmissible. If the circumstances of the Union required an army, let it be raised; if not, he wished to give no power to raise it--especially, as the PRESIDENT, if he saw necessity, could call Congress together, if he should find that the circumstances of the country required it. Mr. G. thought the House had already decided that no additional army was necessary at present, in agreeing to an additional regiment of artillery; as the select committee, when they brought in that bill, had the report of the Secretary of War before them, which stated, besides the regiment of artillery, that other additional force would be necessary; and having reported no other, it was to be supposed they thought no other necessary. But, if it was thought the House had not gone far enough, he was willing to go farther, but not willing to transfer their power to judge of the propriety of raising an army.

Mr. DANA hoped this bill would not be rejected on its first reading. It required no labored arguments to prove that the motion might be made; but more than had been adduced to show that it ought to be adopted. He thought the gentleman from Massachusetts ought not to have been surprised at this motion, because it was best calculated for exciting alarm. It was said the Senate proceeded in a similar way on the bill sent up from this House for a repeal of the stamp act; but that question had already been agreed upon in the Senate on a distinct proposition, and there was, therefore, no necessity for going again into it. The gentleman from Pennsylvania had said that when the House agreed upon an additional regiment of artillery, they negatively decided against any other standing force. The gentleman might put what construction he pleased upon that vote, he could assure him for himself that he had no such idea when he voted.

This bill, Mr. D. said, provided for the raising of a regular force, in case the PRESIDENT shall think the situation of the country requires it. He is also authorized to accept of the services of the volunteer corps. The bill could be amended in any manner which gentlemen thought proper. But the gentleman from Pennsylvania does not know what a provisional army means. He believed this was no new principle. He believed it was acted upon when the three additional regiments were raised to the then existing corps. It was in principle the same as when an army is directed to be raised, but where the PRESIDENT has power given him to suspend the raising of it, if he shall see it necessary.

Mr. SEWALL said that, though the present motion be not irregular in point of form, yet it is a manner of proceeding very objectionable at this time. His colleague had complained of this motion being a surprise upon the House. He had good reason so to consider it. And the House will consider whether it is expedient, without entering into a consideration of the bill, without seeing whether any alteration could be made in it, so as to render it more agreeable to gentlemen, thus to attempt to destroy the bill. What was the motive of the gentleman from Virginia in making the motion might easily be discovered. He had obtained leave of absence, which might have a tendency to hurry him in his political course. He wished to be heard on this subject, but this hurry of his to return home ought not to hurry the House in its proceedings. Those gentlemen who had determined to take this course had the advantage of others who were unprepared for such a motion.

Mr. HARPER believed, notwithstanding what had been advanced by the gentleman from Pennsylvania, (Mr. GALLATIN,) that this was a very unprecedented measure; because however prepared the House may be on some occasions, at the first blush of business, to decide upon the abstract principle, yet it was perfectly novel in their proceedings to reject a bill on its first reading, which contains such a variety of propositions, and which is capable of such a variety of modifications as the present. It was also as little consonant with the present situation of the country as it was with their usual modes of proceeding. The allusion to the decision on the bill for repealing the stamp act (as had been shown) was no way applicable. He could see no other view in a proposition of this kind but a determination to resist every measure for the defence of the country. If the intention had not been to destroy the bill, it would have been suffered to have taken its usual course, and attempts would have been made to amend it. If a provisional army was not liked, gentlemen might have had the army immediately raised; or, if 20,000 men were too many, fewer might have been proposed. If gentlemen did not think the army immediately necessary, and did not choose to leave it with the PRESIDENT to judge of that necessity, they might make it to depend upon a declaration of war by France, on an invasion, or in case Victor Hugues were to bring his troops, or send his threatened frigates against us, or if an insurrection should be excited by our enemy, then the PRESIDENT should be empowered to raise an army.

But gentlemen say this bill ought to be rejected, because it is unconstitutional. Could gentlemen be serious in making this objection? Were troops ever raised in a different manner? And if they had the power to authorize the PRESIDENT to raise troops immediately, they could certainly do it under such contingencies as they thought proper. Did not Congress intrust the PRESIDENT with the discretionary power of borrowing money, of, in some cases, fixing salaries, &c., which powers were equally vested in them with the power of raising armies; and this must be the case, except gentlemen insist that Congress should itself do all the acts committed to it; and if so, they must always be in session.

But the gentleman from Pennsylvania says, that if this power be delegated to the PRESIDENT, Congress may as well intrust the PRESIDENT with the power of raising provisional taxes. He had no hesitation in saying, that he believed this might be done; that the House might determine upon a tax, and authorize the collecting of it, only in case the PRESIDENT should find it necessary, or in case a certain event should take place.

With respect, then, to the expediency of the measure--he did not speak of the expediency of raising 20,000 men, because any other number might be determined upon--but as to the thing itself. What is the internal and external state of this country? Do we not know that the enemy has in view a plan upon which they place great reliance--of gaining over to their cause a certain class of men, who abound in the Southern part of this country, and by whose means they intend to subjugate or destroy the country? We do know this--gentlemen from the Southern States know it; yet they say it is impossible to raise any regular force to repel the enemy. He could not believe, that when we had to meet an enemy, who has always fought by means of domestic insurrection, who is now subverting the most ancient Governments in the world by these means, it would be consistent with any maxim of common sense to be unprepared for the worst.

What, said he, is our external situation? Do we not see the nation with whom we are at variance find quarrels with every country who is not strong enough to resist her? Does she not injure us on every side? Do we not hear of depredatory threats, and the mischiefs she has the power of doing us, urged as reasons why we should submit to her? And yet, after being told of these designs, shall we sit with our arms folded, and make no defence? For the measures already taken will be nothing without this. Fortifications would be nothing except supported by a sufficient number of infantry and cavalry.

What, he asked, is the situation of the West Indies? Were they not told that Victor Hugues, with 5,000 of his best troops, is ready to make a blow upon the Southern country, whenever the word of command shall be given? They knew that these troops existed; they had been seen, and the desperate character of their leader was also known. Yet, with this enemy upon our threshold, within four or five days' sail of us, we still fold our arms, and say we will make no defence.

When he reflected upon these things, he could not help deploring that fatal blindness, that stubborn spirit of opposition, in certain gentlemen, which could hide from their view the danger of our present situation; that, at a period when the veil is rending from before the eyes of the community; when those who have been the most blind out-of-doors begin to see, that those gentlemen in this House, who, from their ancient birth and fortunes, might be supposed to possess the true American spirit, should still persist in their blind, their destructive course, was greatly to be lamented. And though he could not doubt the fate of this bill, yet that there should be a few men found supporting measures which tend directly to the destruction of the country, he could not help lamenting.

Mr. BALDWIN did not agree with the gentleman who had just sat down, that the present motion was either unprecedented or improper. When it is proposed to make a law on any subject, it presents itself to discussion on two grounds, the principles of the law and the details. The proper stages to debate the general principle on which the law is to be founded, by the rules of this House, are, when it is proposed to introduce the law, and at the third reading, when it is considered as finished, and on its passage; the intermediate stages of the discussion are all supposed to be employed to settle and adjust the detail. He had often regretted that members, having been accustomed to different modes of proceeding in their State Legislatures, were so apt to disturb and keep unsettled their modes of proceeding in this House. He knew it was sometimes a practice, after a bill had been read the second time, and was referred to be shaped and formed by free discussion in Committee of the Whole, a member would rise to amend the bill by striking out the first section, declaring, at the same time, that he made the motion for the purpose of destroying the bill--a mere law fiction, under color of detail and amendment, to contest the original principle and destroy the bill. Without doubt the commencement of the business is the regular stage to contest the principle. If it originates in this House, it is on a motion in Committee of the Whole, expressing in general terms the expediency that such a law should be provided; if it comes from the Senate, the same question presents itself after the first reading, in the words of the present motion, which are the very words prescribed by the stated rule of the House. If on this question the majority of the House appear in favor of the principle of the bill, it goes on through the stages of its detail and formation, and at the third reading the general question occurs again, shall the principle, detailed as it now appears, pass into a law? He was sure no member could object to the fairness and propriety of the present motion.

As to the principle of the bill, he must say, it did not meet his approbation. If the House is convinced it is necessary to raise an Army of twenty thousand men, as the bill now proposes, they ought to say so at once, and let it be done; if they are not convinced that it is necessary, the law ought not to pass, the Army ought not to be raised till they are convinced it is necessary. The constitution made the Legislature the sole judge on this subject. The present bill says it is not necessary to raise this Army now, but perhaps it may be before Congress meets again, it therefore proposes to transfer the right of judging on this subject to the Executive; he thought it a very improper transfer of Legislative power. It has been said that all our troops are raised thus provisionally. If attention is paid to those laws, it will be seen that they did not pass till the Legislature was convinced that circumstances then required the troops to be raised; a clause is added, that if circumstances should alter so as to make the troops unnecessary, the PRESIDENT might forbear to raise, or discharge them; it gives him power to disband the Army, but not to raise one.

Mr. RUTLEDGE said, as the principal objection against this bill seemed to arise from an idea that the militia would be found sufficient for every purpose of defence for this country, he thought gentlemen had better concur in letting the bill go to a second reading and be committed, and before it again came under consideration, the militia bill would probably have been determined upon. He was pleased to hear gentlemen say that the country must be defended, and if an effective militia could not be had, it must be done by a force of this kind. For his own part, from the proceedings already had upon the militia bill, he had not much to hope of its passing; and if not, gentlemen would certainly see the necessity of some additional standing force. Mr. R. could not conceive what objections could have been induced by the gentleman from Pennsylvania (as he was not in the House when he spoke) on a constitutional ground. Mr. R. adduced, as in point, the law enabling the PRESIDENT to call out troops in consequence of the Western insurrection, and that making provision for the effectual protection of the frontiers of the United States. Mr. R. then mentioned his expectation of despatches being received from our Ministers in Paris in the course of twelve hours (a particular mention of which has already been made) which might convince all of the propriety of going into this measure; for he believed it was the wish of all to defend the country with vigor and effect, and that they only differed as to the means of doing it.

Mr. MCDOWELL was in favor of the motion for rejecting the bill, as it contained two principles which he thought inadmissible; the first, because it delegated Legislative power to the PRESIDENT; the other, as it respects volunteer corps. The first, he believed, would be unconstitutional, and the last would go to the destruction of the militia of the United States. If our situation be such as it had been figured to the committee by the gentleman from South Carolina, they ought to turn their attention to it, and create an army themselves, and not direct the PRESIDENT to do it if he shall judge proper. But if there be no real appearance of danger, but it is merely conjectural, then it is not necessary to act. Gentlemen have talked of members folding their arms and doing nothing for the defence of the United States. It must be recollected that we have gone considerable lengths in measures of defence. We have voted large sums for the frigates, for fortifications, for an additional regiment of artillery, and put in requisition 80,000 militia. If gentlemen can show that these measures, with our former establishment, are not sufficient for our present situation, he was ready to go further, but he was not willing to delegate any power lodged with that House to another branch of the Government.

It was well known, Mr. McD. said, that it had been the wish of the late PRESIDENT, that it was also the wish of the present PRESIDENT, of the Heads of Departments, and many members of Congress, to increase our Military Establishment, and to fix a standing army in this country. It has heretofore, however, been opposed with success, except in time of war. If we were to be involved in war, an army must be resorted to in aid of the militia; but, in the first instance, the militia might be depended upon as a sure and safe defence of this country. He was sure they would be equal to any invasion, and if we were to engage in a lengthy and formidable war, we must provide accordingly.

Mr. S. SMITH hoped this motion would be withdrawn. At a time like the present, when the people of the United States are looking up to Congress in expectation of their taking effectual measures of defence against what they think not only a possible, but probable event, he wished nothing to appear like indifference to that object. He agreed with the gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. HARPER) that if gentlemen did not like the bill, it might be amended; but to reject it altogether would have too much the appearance of indifference to the defence of the country. He did not know that this would be the best and most effectual mode of defence; he thought a better might be established, but he had not made up his mind upon it. He would, however, throw out an idea or two for the consideration of the committee. Last session, eighty thousand man were ordered to be held in requisition. He thought if the PRESIDENT was to draw out twenty thousand of these for three months, and when their time expired, to draw out twenty thousand more, and so on, till the whole had been out, it might afford a sufficient protection, and more speedily than any other, and it would have the good effect of making eighty thousand soldiers. In addition to this, there might be a provision authorizing the PRESIDENT to receive volunteer corps of cavalry from the Southern States, to be commanded by their own officers, to serve in a manner as shall be directed by law, the equipments for which to be furnished by the United States, which would be more effectual than a general law to raise three or four thousand cavalry.

Mr. MACON said, that some of the arguments used on this occasion were of an extraordinary nature. The motion was first said to be contrary to rule, and then unprecedented. It must certainly be allowed to be as proper to debate a bill on its first reading, as to refuse to refer a resolution. The fact was, that motions of this kind were made every session. It was said to be a surprise upon gentlemen; this could not be the case, if they had done their duty, as it had lain on their desks for some time. One reason, with him, for wishing the bill to be rejected in this stage was, that he was desirous of bringing the session to a close. It was wonderful that gentlemen should persist in bringing standing troops into the Southern States against their will. If members from that quarter were of opinion that their militia was sufficient defence, why will gentlemen be so over civil as to force troops upon them? It was a little extraordinary that gentlemen most in favor of this bill are the most opposed to the plan for newly organizing the militia. [Mr. DANA doubted the fact.] It was said that, because gentlemen are opposed to this bill, they are opposed to all measures of defence. The fact was otherwise; they wished only to avoid unnecessary expense. If they were to bring forward a proposition for raising one hundred thousand or two hundred thousand men, and it was opposed, they might say the same thing. He supposed every man wished to defend his country. He had only heard one reason in favor of committing the bill, and that was, that it was probable we might shortly hear from our Commissioners. If there was any certainty in that, it might be ground for delaying a decision.

Mr. GALLATIN could not conceive why it should be insinuated that there was any thing unfair in making opposition to this bill on its first reading; for, if gentlemen were not ready to vote against the bill, they would, of course, vote for committing it, so that the opposition would have less chance of succeeding now than in the future stages of the bill. In the meanwhile, he wished to take every opportunity of endeavoring to destroy the bill. If a majority could be got against it on the first reading, so much the better, as it would prevent a loss of time in future discussion. He was not, however, afraid of discussion; he believed, the more it was discussed, the more the committee would be convinced of the impropriety of passing this bill. He did not believe, as had been supposed, that it was capable of amendment in any of its essential parts. It had been said, that a contingency might be mentioned; or a time fixed, at the expiration of which, the army might be raised. Such a bill would, however, be altogether different, as this bill vested the power of judging of the proper time with the PRESIDENT; nor could he see how it was susceptible of the amendments suggested by the gentleman from Maryland. If he thought it was, he would certainly agree to its being committed, as he perfectly concurred in the plan he mentioned; but such a system would be so different from the present, that it would be a much shorter and better course to reject this bill, and originate a new one.

He thought a bill of this kind was sufficient to alarm the House, and that it ought to be opposed in every stage, notwithstanding what was said about the danger of the country; indeed that danger was what strengthened his opposition to the bill; for, if our danger be, as it is represented, likely to come from Victor Hugues and his troops, from an insurrection of the negroes, from disaffected persons, from our enemy being at the door, it is the duty of Congress to raise an army themselves, and not to give the PRESIDENT the power of doing it; but if it is not believed that this representation of danger rests upon any specific ground, but that it is merely imaginary, then there is no necessity for giving the PRESIDENT the power, as he can call Congress together whenever he thinks proper.

If the danger of invasion was great, he should not hesitate to raise an army, without waiting until the event took place. He thought, therefore, the gentleman from South Carolina was not right to say that the opposition to this bill arose from a determined opposition to every thing like defensive measures. Mr. G. said it was true he did not apprehend all the dangers which that gentleman had spoken of; but, if they really did exist, he had a much greater reliance upon the militia of the country for defence than that gentleman seemed to have. He knew that though in some States they were not either well disciplined or well armed, yet they were organized, and had their officers, and the States being in possession of arms, they would be a much more effectual defence, and sooner brought together than any other force. He did not believe that giving the President the power to raise 20,000 men would be so effectual as the calling out of 20,000 militia, as the one could be raised immediately, and the raising of the other would be doubtful. Besides, in proportion as the danger exists, it would be better to call upon the people themselves to defend their country, than upon hired troops. If any danger was to be apprehended from the negroes, they would be best suppressed by the people in the States where they are. A militia is every where; whereas a standing army may be very distant from any attack which may take place. A standing army in Virginia, for instance, would do little good against insurgents in South Carolina; and if an insurrection of that kind was not immediately suppressed by the people, the mischief would be incalculable.

Mr. RUTLEDGE thought it necessary, as the gentleman from Virginia had withdrawn his opposition to the commitment of the bill from what had fallen from him with respect to the probability of despatches being shortly received from our Ministers, to state upon what ground he had said this. [Mr. R. then mentioned the arrival of the _Pomona_ at Baltimore.]

Mr. MCDOWELL did not think the information given by the gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. RUTLEDGE) ought to put off the decision of the question which had been under consideration.

WEDNESDAY, April 25.

_Provisional Army._

The SPEAKER having declared the question on the bill from the Senate for the raising of a provisional army, viz: "Shall this bill be rejected?" to be first in order before the House,

Mr. MCDOWELL said, upon further consideration, and conceiving that gentlemen might wish to see the contents of the despatches of our Ministers, which had been mentioned, before they gave their vote on this occasion, he should withdraw his opposition to the second reading of the bill.

The bill was then read a second time; and a motion being made to commit it to the Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union,

Mr. LYON called for the yeas and nays; but only himself and another member rising in support of the motion, it was not carried.

The bill was then referred.

_Department of the Navy._

Mr. HARPER called for the order of the day on the bill for establishing an Executive department, to be denominated _The Department of the Navy_. The House accordingly went into a Committee of the Whole on this bill, and rose without making any amendment in the bill; but, upon the question, in the House, of its passing to a third reading,

Mr. GALLATIN said, he had not proposed any amendment to this bill in the Committee of the Whole, because, what he had to say upon it, would go against the principle of the bill. He did not think it necessary to establish a Navy Department. He did not suppose our Army and Navy were at present so large as to require two separate departments. If the business was so much increased as that the persons at present employed could not do it, they might be increased. Nor did he believe, with some gentlemen, that such an institution would produce economy; on the contrary, he always found that the increase of officers was the increase of expense. Some time ago, it was said that great economy would arise from appointing a Purveyor of Supplies; but he had seen, from the time of this establishment, a great and constant increase of expense, in every thing which relates to supplies. Not seeing the necessity of it, therefore, he should vote against it, except good reason should be given for it; for he believed, the moment a department of this kind was established, the head of it would wish to make it of as great importance as possible, by endeavors to extend the object of his superintendence. He called for the yeas and nays upon the question, which were agreed to be taken.

Mr. J. WILLIAMS did not feel disposed to vote for this bill. It appeared to him that the Secretary of War, with officers under him, would be sufficient for the management of our naval concerns also. It was some time after the constitution was framed before the War Department was established. Whenever an office was established, something was always found for it to do. Soon after the War Department was established we had an Indian war; and after that Indian war ceased, another establishment was made under the name of the Accountant's Office. If the business was increased, new clerks might be employed, but he should be against any new department. If we were engaged in hostilities, and our naval power of course increased, such an establishment might be necessary; but at present he did not think it necessary, nor did he think our revenue equal to the support of a Navy which should require such an establishment to take care of it. If this office was to superintend the construction of vessels, persons acquainted with this business might be employed under the Secretary of War. The present expense of the War Department was $18,250 a year; and though there would not be much to do in this new office, he supposed the expense would not be much less; and, besides, Congress would be importuned, from session to session, to increase our naval force. Mr. W. said he was desirous of making every defence for our country, yet he wished to keep down our expenses as much as possible. If circumstances called for going further into the business of the Navy, he should not object to it.

Mr. SEWALL said, when the House was considering any subject relative to the increase of the Navy, complaints were made of the enormous expenses and of the little responsibility which attends the business; and when it has been said that the greatness of the expense might have arisen from a want of knowledge in the persons who had the care of the business, it was said that defect ought to be remedied. This department is intended to do that, and, by the expense of a few hundred dollars, he had no doubt thousands would be saved. When talking about vessels, it was complained that too great an expense was incurred on this object; now it is said there is no object for the proposed officer to attend to. But the gentleman from New York (Mr. WILLIAMS) was afraid, if this office was established, it would be the means of increasing the Navy. This certainly could not be done, contrary to the will of Congress.

He thought there were obvious reasons for the establishment of this department. It was well known that an officer might be well acquainted with the business of the army, without knowing any thing about a navy; and a man employed at the head of such a department ought to have some knowledge of the business committed to his care. Mr. S. said, however well the present Secretary of War might be acquainted with army concerns, he believed he was not conversant with naval matters. In consequence of this, he had a number of agents employed under him. Indeed, the War Department had so much business on its hands, as not to be able to pay a sufficient attention to our naval establishment. He therefore believed it was necessary to make this new establishment, especially as the Navy Department was likely to be considerably augmented.

Mr. S. SMITH believed, after all the struggles which had been made on this subject, it would at length be found necessary for the United States seriously to turn their attention to the establishment of an efficient naval force; and the sooner gentlemen could bring their minds to this, the better it would be for the general good. If this proposition had been brought forward at the commencement of the session, he should have thought it unnecessary; but, from the increase which had been made during this session, he thought the establishment proper. $950,000 had been appropriated for providing twelve vessels; a number of galleys were also contemplated. A ship of war or schooner, it appears, has been built on the lakes, and some galleys on the rivers. These, with the frigates and cutters, form an establishment which will require a naval man to superintend it. An expenditure of two millions of dollars, he supposed, would be authorized this session; and a man knowing something of naval architecture will be able to save more, in the course of this year, to the United States, than will pay ten years of the expenses of this office. A merchant going into the building of vessels without a knowledge of the business will find the truth of this fact. The great expenditure attending the building of the frigates, he supposed had been chiefly owing to the want of such an establishment as the present. The gentleman from New York had stated the expense of the War Department at $18,250; but one-half of that expense was incurred in the office of the Accountant of the War Department; and as there would be no need of a new Accountant, the expense could not be doubled. The duties of the War Department are greatly increased, and might be further increased during the present session; and an expenditure of the kind proposed might save the throwing away of thousands of dollars.

Mr. MACON said, the arguments in favor of this bill were derived from a want of knowledge of naval affairs in the War Department. He thought that might be supplied without the establishment of a new department; but he believed the building of the frigates had mostly been carried on under the direction of the captains who were to have the command of them. More clerks had been added to the War Department, in consideration of the business which the Navy had occasioned. He believed the more officers were appointed, the more money would be expended.

Mr. OTIS said, the gentleman from New York had opposed this bill on different grounds from the gentleman from Pennsylvania. He did not make any reply to the gentleman from Pennsylvania, because he expected opposition from him and some others, to every measure which had the defence of the country for its object; and, as the session was drawing to a close, he thought it best to have as little debate as possible, and that the sooner the question was taken the better; but when he saw a gentleman rise in opposition to it, upon whose support he calculated, he was apprehensive lest it might have an effect upon other persons on whose support he also relied. The gentleman from New York seemed to apprehend some new and heavy expense was to be incurred, and that some greater caution was now necessary than heretofore. What saving, then, does he mean to make by opposing the establishment of this office? Since he supposes the same clerks will be sufficient, it will only be the salary of the chief officer, which, Mr. O. supposed, would be $3,500--a greater saving than that which would be made by such a person in every ship built or purchased. Taking the expense of our Naval Establishment at one million dollars a year, it would only be an expense of one-third per cent., which every one must allow was a mere trifle, to have the money of the public well expended. The services of the War and Navy Departments were, he said, perfectly distinct. The duties of the War Department became every day more arduous, and whatever gentlemen may think, they must become still more so. This opposition coming from a friend, he could not suppose it arose from a bad motive, but merely from a narrow conception of what is conceived to be the agricultural interest. Agriculture and commerce, said Mr. O., are twin sisters, and cannot live separate from each other; they must live together, or expire at the same moment. It was the duty of gentlemen representing agriculturists thus to speak to their constituents. It was an axiom realized by every politician in the world. The fact was, that every thing spent upon the Naval Department was so much saved, in which the agricultural part of the country partake very largely.

Mr. T. CLAIBORNE never remembered to have heard such language as had fallen from the gentleman last up. He laments, said Mr. C., that a gentleman who usually voted with him should dare to think for himself. Are gentlemen's opinions and language thus to be circumscribed? [Mr. O. explained.] Mr. C. continued, the gentleman was willing that all questions should now be taken without debate. Does this mean, said he, that there are a majority of members in this House who must always be in the right, and a minority always in the wrong? If this be the case, they had better dismiss the minority, and do the business themselves. Were not gentlemen any longer to express their difference of opinion? Would this be the way to keep the Government together, or to preserve harmony in the country? If this were to be the situation of things, he should regret it with tears in his eyes. He had himself no mathematical certainty that any opinion of his was right; nor did he think the gentleman from Massachusetts ought to expect men to bow to his. Such an assumption led to mischief of a serious kind. What! to say we have a majority, and therefore we will have no debate. [The SPEAKER said no such expression had been made use of; if it had, he should have checked it.] Had it not been for an expression of this kind, he should not have risen on this question. He wished to hear every man deliver his opinion freely. Mr. C. did not believe the bill to be a proper one, and he should therefore vote against it.

Mr. MCDOWELL said, he should be opposed to the bill, if he had no other objection to it than that it went to countenance the idea, according to the gentlemen from Maryland and Massachusetts, that this country must go into the establishment of a large naval power. The great saving to be derived from this office, he understood to be from savings in the building of vessels; but, as the twelve vessels which were lately voted are proposed to be purchased, ready built, he supposed this reason did not apply at present. If there was no intention, therefore, (which he trusted there was not,) of carrying our Naval Establishment to any considerable extent, he could see no occasion for the creation of this office. For, if this Secretary of the Navy was appointed, he would also be obliged to rely upon others, in a great degree, for information.

Mr. HARPER said, the naval defence which this House thought necessary for the service of the country having been voted, he could not agree with those gentlemen who consider this as a question of defence. He thought it a question of economy, and, in this view, he should reply to some observations which had been made upon it.