Chapter VIII: Front Matter (8)

It was an extraordinary thing to look at the progress of economy in that House with respect to these frigates. In the first place, six frigates were necessary; they were afterwards reduced to three, and because an officer was appointed to take care of the timber left on hand, a gentleman from Connecticut wondered that $500 should be so employed. A motion had been made to confine the Executive to finish the hulls of the ships only. This would have been a strange economy. Indeed, such attempts were made at economy on this business as were never introduced upon any other. The gentleman from Virginia (Mr. NICHOLAS) had observed there was no use for ships at all. If the House were of that opinion, such a resolution had better at once be come to; but the strange sort of hesitating conduct which was adopted, exceeded all that he had heard of in legislation.

Had gentlemen who declared these vessels to be of no use, contemplated the situation of this country; that it depended wholly upon commerce for revenue; that that commerce was now put in jeopardy, and that no substitute had been found for the revenue thence arising? And would not all this hesitation, whenever the subject of a navy came under consideration, tempt European nations to continue their unjust depredations upon our property at sea? It certainly would.

But even gentlemen who wished to confine themselves merely to the finishing of the vessels at present, would not surely think it improper for them to establish a navy yard, and to secure timber for future use. Did those gentlemen consider what it was to deprive the country of a rich mine of ship timber? If they hesitated on this subject, they surely did not.

What had been said by the gentleman from Maryland on the subject of Algiers, was very just; and the want of a navy power would have a similar effect upon all our negotiations, as foreign nations would rise or fall in their demands, according to our power at sea. The money thrown away upon Algiers to purchase peace, would have been much better employed in building ships; for if we had a few ships, that power would not have committed the depredations upon us which she had done. And whether the money was paid to Algiers or expended in building ships, it was in both cases for the same purpose, viz: the protection of commerce. But there was this great difference between the two expenditures. In the one case, the dollars were shipped off to a foreign country, and in the other, they were paid to our own citizens. The iron used was from our own mines; the guns from our own manufactories; the hemp, and every other material, were of our own growth and manufacture, so that the money went into the hands of our artisans, manufacturers, and farmers. And, therefore, though the frigates had cost a great deal of money, it was some modification of the expense to consider that the money was gone into the pockets of our own citizens. But, he asked if the loss we sustained for the want of a naval power could be estimated? He said it could not. We not only lost our property, but our seamen, and they were not only lost to us, but were probably in the service of those countries which were committing depredations upon us. The loss of property might be recovered; but a hardy race of seamen once lost, could not be recovered.

What an affecting spectacle had we the other day of sixty of these unfortunate men returning from Algerine slavery? They were received into the arms of their country with all the sympathy which the occasion called for; but could gentlemen help feeling, at the same time, for the impotence of our Government, when they recollected that the liberty of these men had been purchased at a very high price from a petty despot? And shall we continue to go on thus, and encourage the Barbary powers to enslave our seamen by showing so great a reluctance to enter upon any measure which might afford a defence against their depredations?

Mr. MURRAY believed it would be a very prudent measure to secure the ship-timber in question; for if we did not, it was probable some foreign nation would get possession of it. He did not know whether the laws of Georgia would permit foreigners to purchase the land upon which this timber grew; but if they would not, it would be no difficult thing to get possession of it through the medium of an individual. If this country were to become a maritime power, and no one who considered the subject for a moment could doubt it, this was too rich a mine to be neglected. What had been said about adopting the Chinese policy, might serve to amuse them; but when they looked at the commerce of the country, it was impossible they should not see the necessity of a naval force to protect that commerce against the depredations of any nation who chose to attack it. Indeed, it was come to this, they must either provide for the protection of commerce, or deny the utility of it, and give it up altogether.

But the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. NICHOLAS) was afraid if these frigates were sent out to sea, they would involve us in a war. What! said he, can it be supposed that three frigates would give us that ridiculous kind of spirit which would induce us at any rate to go to war? This would be a species of insanity which he did not think it was probable we should fall into. No: these vessels would serve to protect our coasts, and preserve our commerce from attacks, at least, within a small distance from our own ports. How far they might serve to render us of some importance in the eyes of foreign nations, he could not tell; but he believed that three frigates would have a greater effect in this respect with us, than ten to Sweden, Denmark, or Holland. We lie, said he, near the high road of commerce to the West Indies, and these three frigates, backed by national wealth, would show a disposition to become a maritime power, and would have their effect upon European nations.

Besides, Mr. M. said, these vessels would be the foundation of a future Navy. He was for shaping our means of defence to the means of offence employed against us by other nations; for until the European nations became wise enough to cease from war, it was necessary to provide means of defence against their attacks. He should, therefore, always give his support to every means of national defence. He wished our nation to stand upon a respectable footing as a nation, since the most magnanimous conduct was no security against the attacks of foreign powers. He should, therefore, be in favor of a naval yard, and of providing ship-timber for future use.

Mr. HARPER said, the two resolutions respecting a naval yard and a provision for timber should come under consideration together; because, if no provision was made for purchasing timber, a naval yard would be of no use.

This question, he said, was capable of being considered under two points of view: the one whether the measure was proper; the other, if the measure was proper, whether it would not be better postponed for the present. Both of these points required a considerable degree of attention. There was a variety of considerations on both sides of the question, and it remained for them to determine for the best.

Was it proper for this country, he asked, to turn its attention towards marine strength? Did not our situation, and the circumstances in which we stand, compel us to turn our attention to this object? He thought they did, and for one or two reasons which he would submit to the consideration of the committee.

It appeared to him out of the question that any kind of commerce should be continued without some ships-of-war to protect it. This was the dilemma in which we were placed. It was said by some gentlemen that this dilemma might be avoided, by suffering commerce to go on unprotected, and subject it to all risks; and that even then, there would be sufficient benefit arising from it, to induce its continuance. This he did not believe. If persons engaged in commerce could have no dependence upon the protection of Government, a very few years, perhaps a few months more, might convince them that the business could not and ought not to be continued.

The present Government, he said, had only been in existence eight years, and for nearly four of them commerce had been subject to every kind of depredation. The usual calculation with respect to Europe was, that during every ten years, it would be subject to war, and that these wars would have a duration of from six to eight years, in the course of which our property and citizens would be subject to the same violations and injuries which they had for the last four years experienced, if no provision was made, by a naval power, to prevent it.

Brought to this dilemma, said he, which side will you take? Will you give up commerce, or build a Navy to protect it? Besides, he said, a great part of our citizens who had been trained up in commerce from their infancy, could not be driven from that kind of employment to which they had always been accustomed. They could not be induced, like the Chinese, to stay at home; they would be engaged in commerce, their favorite pursuit. If they, then, were compelled to protect commerce, he asked if there was any other way of doing it than by a Navy? He believed not. Treaties afford a feeble and very inadequate protection; they were broken whenever it suited the interest of a nation to break them. Letters of marque might afford some protection; but this would operate as a heavier tax upon the people than even the support of the Navy. The money which a merchant expended in this way would eventually come upon the people in the price which they would be obliged to pay for their merchandise, and the means would be very inadequate to protection.

In China and the East Indies, Mr. H. said, the inhabitants could shut themselves up within their own territory, and avoid any intercourse with foreign nations. In countries so far removed from Europe, as to prevent any one nation from making a monopoly, of its trade, this policy might exist. But could America lay up her ships, and say she would open her ports to all nations? No; that very instant you give up your trade to that nation which has the greatest power at sea; for she will immediately block up your ports, and oblige you to trade with them only. In order, therefore, to trade with all nations, we must be the carriers of our own produce, for other nations would not leave us at liberty to do so. The strongest power would say to the others, you shall not trade with these people, you shall do so and so, or we will go to war with you. You must, therefore, said he, protect your own trade.

Will these resolutions, then, said he, if adopted, tend to this point? He believed they would. To provide a dock-yard, and to take care of a supply of timber suitable for the purpose of ship-building, were very essential steps. Much expense, he said, would be saved in carrying on the building of several ships together in one yard, instead of having them scattered in different parts of the Union. Timber might also be laid up to season in this yard, so as always to be ready for use; for, he believed that much of the delay which had attended the building of the ships now on the stocks, had been owing to the difficulty which had attended the procuring of proper timber. Besides, Mr. H. said, its being known to foreign nations, that you had provided a dock-yard, would have some weight; it would at least have the appearance of an intention of building a Navy.

With respect to the purchasing of land clothed with live oak timber, he thought it a very desirable measure. It was well known that this timber was confined to a few spots--a few sea islands on the coast of South Carolina and Georgia, and some small strips along the seashore; and in each of these places there were only a few trees of a sufficient size for building large ships. The land upon which these trees grew, since the cultivation of cotton had been introduced into those parts, was become valuable land for that purpose. This induced the people to cut down the timber and burn it, for the sake of getting the land, and there was no way of arresting this practice, but by securing the land; and being of so good a quality, when the trees were cut down, it would probably sell for a greater price than was originally given for it.

Mr. GALLATIN saw no connection between the two resolutions, which the gentleman who had just sat down thought it necessary to connect together. The last resolution proposed the purchase of land clothed with live oak; the present proposed the appropriation of a sum of money for purchasing the site of a naval yard, &c., as a foundation for a Navy. The last went only to the securing of timber for the building of a Navy, if at any day it should be thought necessary; he believed he should vote for the last, but certainly against the first.

They had been told that no commerce could exist without protection, and that that protection must be a Navy; from whence it would follow, that if a Navy was necessary to protect commerce, it must be a Navy competent to vie with the navies of other nations. He would here ask, how gentlemen drew their conclusion, that commerce could not exist without the protection of a Navy. He wished they would show from the example of any nation in Europe, or from our own example, that commerce and navies had gone hand in hand. There was no nation, except Great Britain, said he, whose Navy had any connection with commerce. No nation, except England and Holland, had more to do with commerce than this country, and yet we had no Navy; and though for the four last years this commerce had been subject to continual depredations, it was not exceeded by any nation, except the two he had named. And if they looked to Europe, they would find there was no connection between navies and commerce. Russia and Sweden had considerable navies, but little commerce; whilst Holland, whose Navy was by no means large, ranked next to England with respect to commerce. Hamburg, he said, was one of the first commercial States in Europe, yet she had no Navy. Navies, he said, were the instruments of power, more calculated to annoy the trade of other nations than to protect that of the nation to which they belong.

But there was another position which he should take in opposition to gentlemen who supported the creation of a Navy, viz: that however useful or desirable a Navy might be, this country was not equal to the support of one. We might have two or three frigates indeed, but, when he said we could not support a Navy, he meant to say we could not support such a Navy as should claim respect, in the sense which those gentlemen spoke of it; such as being an object of terror to foreign nations. If they calculated what the three frigates had cost, considered the scanty manner in which this country was peopled, our inability to raise any very large revenue, and the high price of labor, the truth of this assertion would appear evident.

Again, if such a Navy were created, how was it to be manned? He wished gentlemen to point out any mode in which a Navy could be manned in this country without having recourse to the abominable practice of impressment. If the nations of Europe found it impossible to man their fleets without having recourse to these violent means, he believed it would be impossible, without breaking down those barriers which secured the liberty of every citizen, to man a Navy in this country.

Perhaps he might be asked, if we were, then, to be left without protection? He thought there were means of protection which arose from our peculiar situation, and that we ought not to borrow institutions from other nations for which we were not fit. If our commerce had increased, notwithstanding its want of protection; if we had a greater number of seamen than any other nation, except England, this, he thought, pointed out the way in which commerce ought to be protected. The fact was, that our only mode of warfare against European nations at sea, was by putting our seamen on board privateers, and covering the sea with them; these would annoy their trade, and distress them more than any other mode of defence we could adopt.[10]

MONDAY, February 13.

_Purchase of Live Oak Lands._

Mr. HARPER said, that though the House had declined coming to a resolution to authorize the PRESIDENT to purchase certain lands in Georgia, clothed with live oak and red cedar timber, as a reserve for future naval purposes, yet there seemed to be a disposition to cause an inquiry to be made on the subject. He therefore proposed a resolution to the House to the following effect:

"_Resolved_, That the President of the United States be
authorized and requested to cause to be made and reported
to this House as early as may be after the meeting of the
next session of Congress, an inspection of lands furnished
with live oak and red cedar timber, with the relative
advantages of different situations with respect to their
fitness for naval purposes, and the rates at which
purchases may be made."

Ordered to lie on the table.

_John de Neufville._

On motion of Mr. MADISON, the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the following report of the committee, to whom was referred the memorial of Anna de Neufville, widow of John de Neufville, deceased. They report--

"That the services and sacrifices of the said John de
Neufville to the United States, during the war of their
Revolution, as stated in the said memorial, and vouched by
the testimonies herewith reported, constitute a reasonable
claim, in behalf of his, at present, very distressed widow
and children, on the justice of the United States. That it
being impossible, from various and peculiar circumstances
incident to the services rendered, to ascertain and
liquidate the compensation due into a precise sum, it is
necessary for Congress to decide on and provide for such
allowance as may be deemed equitable and right. That, in
the opinion of the committee, the sum of three thousand
dollars may be a proper allowance. They therefore propose
the following resolution:

"_Resolved_, That provision ought to be made, by law, for
granting to the widow and two children of John de
Neufville, the sum of three thousand dollars, to be equally
divided among them."

This report was advocated by Messrs. HARPER, W. SMITH, SWANWICK, HAVENS, HEATH, THATCHER, VARNUM, and RUTHERFORD. They stated that the husband of the petitioner, John de Neufville, was an eminent merchant at Amsterdam; that he was an influential character there, and, at an early period of our Revolutionary war, entered with great zeal into the interests of America; that, meeting with Mr. William Lee, the Commissioner of the United States, he endeavored to bring about a treaty between the United Netherlands and the United States, which being discovered by the British, that Court used its influence with the Government of that country to harass and drive him out of the country; that during his residence at Amsterdam, his house was a constant asylum for American citizens; that he had made large advances in money for the service of the United States, which obliged him to extend his credit beyond what was warranted by the regular course of trade, and a failure in the payment of which (owing to the embarrassed circumstances of the United States at that time) had greatly injured him, and left him to the mercy of his creditors. The consequence was, he was reduced from affluence to poverty at an advanced period of life. Some years ago he arrived at Boston with his wife and two children, where he subsisted in a very humble manner upon the bounty of his friends in Holland; those friends having, by the reverses occasioned by the Revolution, been much injured in their property, could afford him but a scanty pittance; but Mr. de Neufville being dead, the petitioner was deprived of this assistance; and, to add to her repeated misfortunes, the son of her late husband, from their multiplied sufferings, had been deprived of his reason. Under this pressure of grievances, the petitioner was come from Boston to lay her case before Congress, and pray relief. This peculiarly distressing case was supported with great zeal and feeling by its advocates, particularly by Mr. HARPER.

The claim was opposed by Messrs. COIT, SWIFT, and NICHOLAS. An application, it seems, was made by Mr. de Neufville, during his life-time, for redress; upon which the then Secretary of State (Mr. JEFFERSON) reported. This report, after stating all the facts upon which the claim was founded, gave it as his opinion, that the petitioner had no real claim on the United States. This report, it seems, had never been acted upon. The reading of it, as well as of all the documents relative to this claim, was called for, and they were accordingly read. The opposers of this claim acknowledged the distressed situation of the petitioner, but denied the justice of her claim upon the United States; the treaty which Mr. de Neufville proposed to enter into with Mr. Lee, they supposed, was a treaty which he believed would prove beneficial to his country, and not to the United States: that there were many claims in our own country from persons who had been injured by the war, the justice of which was less equivocal, and the distress at least equal. Mr. NICHOLAS said, a few days ago only, a poor man, whose health had been so much impaired in the war, that he was unable to earn his living, had applied to him to bring his case before Congress, yet, as the pension law affords no relief to any person, except he had been wounded, he was obliged to inform him that he could do nothing for him. There were multitudes of such instances, equally distressing with the present, to which no relief could be afforded.

Mr. THATCHER moved to have the three thousand dollars struck out, and five inserted. This was negatived--45 to 37; but the resolution was agreed to as reported--yeas 63, nays 25.

THURSDAY, February 16.

_John C. Symmes._

Mr. GALLATIN said, a report had been made upon the contract between John C. Symmes and his associates, and the United States, which it was of importance to pass into a law this session, as the object was four hundred thousand acres of land, which was worth about eight hundred thousand dollars.

The House accordingly resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the subject, when the report, which was very long, having been read, the committee agreed to the resolution reported, which was in the following words:

"_Resolved_, That a committee be appointed to bring in a
bill to authorize the President of the United States to
grant, in fee simple, to John C. Symmes and his associates,
that part of a tract of land, the boundaries whereof are
ascertained by a survey executed in conformity to the act
of Congress, entitled 'An act for ascertaining the bounds
of a tract of land purchased by J. C. Symmes,' and returned
to the Treasury Department the 10th of January, 1794, which
is not included within the bounds of a grant already made,
on September 8, 1794, to the said J. C. Symmes and his
associates; excepting and reserving out of the same the
lots reserved by the original contract, entered into
between the United States and the said Symmes and his
associates; provided that the said Symmes and his
associates shall previously, in conformity to the terms of
the original contract, make the requisite payment for the
tract to be granted to them, and for the 47,625 acres, part
of the grant already made to them on the 30th September,
1794, for which they have not yet paid any consideration;
and provided, also, that the township reserved for an
Academy shall have been previously laid off and secured,
according to the terms of the contract, and of the
resolutions and law of Congress relative thereto."

FRIDAY, February 17.

_Increase of Duties._

BROWN SUGAR.

Mr. W. SMITH said, the proposed increase, it was calculated, would raise 110,000 dollars, and as the article was not liable to be smuggled, nor its consumption to be decreased, it would be a certain, and he thought, an eligible tax.

Mr. HOLLAND had no doubt but this tax would augment the revenue; but he knew also that it would fall more upon the poor than upon the rich, and he thought they ought not to add to their burdens. He thought there were other articles which would bear some addition, but either brown sugar or salt would be much felt. If they studied that which would be burdensome, here they might fix, but he hoped this was not the principle. By advancing an article so universally used, a rise of labor (already too high) must naturally follow.

Mr. KITCHELL believed the rich and opulent would bear their portion of this tax as well as the poor, as it would fall upon fine sugar as well as upon brown. It would therefore be paid in proportion to the sugar used, and would fall as equally as any other tax which could be laid.

In this instance, Mr. K. said, gentlemen seemed apprehensive of the poor bearing too great a part of the burden; but, if the direct tax on land were to take place, would it not, he asked, fall much heavier upon the poor than a tax on sugar? He believed it would; since the poor who held lands would be called upon to pay their portion of it, whilst the rich who held no lands, would escape it. He, therefore, thought this a far preferable tax.

Mr. DEARBORN said, if further revenue was necessary, he could not conceive any article which would bear an advance of duty better than the one proposed. The present duty, he said, was one and a half cent a pound, and could it be supposed that to lay an additional half cent upon it, could make much difference to the consumer, or that it would ever be felt, or that, at the end of a year, it would be discovered whether one and a half or two cents duty had been paid upon a pound of sugar? He should have no objection, instead of half a cent, to lay an additional cent upon this article. In various parts of the country, brown sugar was retailed at from 12 to 20 cents a pound, the price being much increased from the present distressed situation of the West Indies. But they would find sugar of the same quality selling in one place for 12, in another for 14 or 16 cents; therefore, whether the duty was one or two cents, he did not think it would be felt by any body. It was true, that it was an article used by the middling and lower classes of the people; but the tax falling upon fine as well as brown sugar, all parts of the community would bear an equal share in the burden.

Mr. WILLIAMS moved to strike out the half cent, and insert a cent. It appeared to him that such an advance could not materially affect the consumer. The people, it was true, might use less; but, if they did so, as it was an article of luxury, every pound of sugar less which was consumed, would be of benefit to the country, by keeping the money which it cost in a foreign market at home. But he did not believe that this would be the case; or that the proposed additional duty would increase the price of labor, as had been suggested. He believed the price of labor would be regulated by the price which the farmer was enabled to get for his produce. Whatever the farmer could afford to give his laborer (especially in this country where agriculture is the true interest) would fix the price of all other labor.

Mr. HOLLAND said, perhaps the constituents of the gentleman last up might manufacture their own sugar, and therefore would not be affected by this tax; but the greater part of his constituents were obliged to use and purchase their sugar; and if it were a luxury, it was one he did not wish to deprive them of, but that they might have it upon the same terms as usual. He looked upon it as a necessary of life, already at too high a price, and he should, therefore, oppose any advance of duty upon it.

Mr. GALLATIN said, he and his constituents were in the same situation with the gentleman from New York (Mr. WILLIAMS) and his constituents. They manufactured almost the whole of their own sugar; very little imported sugar was used; indeed, they sometimes exported sugar; but though this reason seemed to act pretty powerfully upon the gentleman from New York, it would not have the same effect upon him. Whenever a measure operated partially upon other parts of the Union, though it might operate in favor of his constituents, he should feel himself in duty bound to oppose it. On the ground of their being Representatives of the whole Union, as well as on the ground of policy, he did not believe it was right to endeavor to throw a burden upon one part of the Union, because the part in which they were most particularly interested, would escape it. He hoped the amendment would be rejected, and after the sense of the committee should have been taken upon it, he also would move an amendment. At present, brown sugar paid one and a half cent a pound duty, and molasses three cents per gallon. He should, therefore, move to have an additional cent laid upon molasses, in order that the two articles might be increased in the same proportion. He was against any increase at present; but if the duty on one article was increased, the other ought also to be increased.

Mr. WILLIAMS observed, that he had said the people in the part of the country from whence he came, made their own sugar during the war; if they were to make it now, it would cost them more than double the price at which they might purchase it. He said, when the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. GALLATIN) found the land tax was not likely to pass, he wished to defeat every proposition for an indirect tax. He had attempted, therefore, to defeat an additional tax on sugar, by proposing to add molasses to the resolution. He did not think this fair; he wished every proposition to stand upon its own ground. A few days ago that gentleman had insisted upon the necessity of laying a direct tax; but now he came forward, and said no additional revenue was wanting. He wished not to have a compulsory tax, but a tax which persons might pay or not. If they did not like to pay the tax on sugar, they might do without it.

Mr. COOPER said he was against any additional duty on salt or sugar, though he and his constituents (as well as his colleague and his constituents) should bear no part of the burden, as they made not only sufficient for themselves, but for sale. Indeed, he said, a duty on salt exported out of the United States, would produce revenue, as a considerable quantity was sent into Upper Canada.

Mr. WILLIAMS denied that his constituents made any salt; they had no salt but what paid duty; nor did his constituents make one-fourth of the sugar they used; nor did he believe his colleague's (Mr. COOPER's) constituents made one-half of the sugar they used, as he well knew that a large quantity of sugar was sent to that district by way of Albany.

Mr. READ hoped the amendment would obtain. Although such persons as lived at a distance from market manufactured their own sugar, and consequently would be excused from this duty, yet they labored under many disadvantages in other respects, on account of their remoteness from market, and therefore he had no objection to their being excused from the operation of this tax. He did not believe this tax on sugar would fall upon poor persons. Farmers, indeed, used a little brown sugar, but they would rather pay a little more for this article than have their land taxed.

Mr. CLAIBORNE was against the amendment. If an additional duty of one cent was laid upon brown sugar, the different dealers would make it three or four, so that it would be materially felt.

Mr. GALLATIN then moved to amend the resolution, by adding an additional cent per gallon upon molasses. At present the duty on brown sugar was one and a half cent per pound, and on molasses three cents per gallon. The advance of 33 per cent. on the present duty would be the same that had been agreed to be laid upon sugar.

Mr. SWANWICK seconded the motion. The only way in which the tax on brown sugar could be secured was by advancing the duty on molasses in the same proportion, otherwise molasses would be used in the place of sugar, and the duty would be evaded. But he would have gentlemen consider in what situation they placed the revenue in respect to drawbacks. The person who paid the duty was probably not the same who drew the drawback on exportation; the United States run the risk, therefore, of paying the drawback, without receiving the duty. Though he thought the tax on sugar highly objectionable, yet if it were adopted, he thought it right that it should be accompanied by a proportionate tax on molasses as a security to the duty being paid. One cent a pound on sugar, it was said, was a trifle; but it was well known that the price of that article was at present very exorbitant, from the disorders which had taken place in the West Indies.

Mr. NICKOLAS hoped the amendment would be agreed to. His principal objection to a tax on sugar was, because, having been successful in making one addition, it would be an argument for making future ones, but if molasses was added to it, the tax would then fall more equally on the poor of different parts of the Union, and be a means of keeping down the tax.

Mr. BUCK said, if he thought the advocates of this amendment would vote for the resolution when amended, he might be induced to vote for it; but he believed they did not mean to do so. If an increase of the duty on brown sugar would fall upon the poorer class of the people, an additional duty on molasses would fall much heavier upon them. But he thought gentlemen were mistaken with respect to the operation of the tax on brown sugar; in the country it would not fall upon the poor, though in the cities it might do so; though in increasing the duty on brown sugar, that on fine was also increased. In the country it was the rich who used brown sugar; they had not got to that pitch of refinement which called for the use of fine sugar; they used brown sugar, and the poor used none; they sweetened with molasses. Notwithstanding this, if he thought gentlemen meant to vote for the resolution when amended, he would not object to the addition on molasses, as he did not think so small an advance would be materially felt.

Mr. RUTHERFORD hoped they should not agree to lay an additional duty on either of these necessaries of life. He hoped there was sufficient good sense in the House to oppose such a measure. They were used by all classes, from the infant to the stoutest man; particularly by many poor, infirm, aged persons, who looked upon them as nutritious and balmy nourishments. He hoped, therefore, they would not increase the price of those articles; for, if an additional cent was added, the dealers would add two, three, or four cents, which would be more than the poor could afford to pay for them.

Mr. CHRISTIE believed the gentleman from Pennsylvania meant, by the introduction of this amendment, to defeat the tax on sugar altogether; he should, therefore, vote against this amendment; but if the additional tax on sugar should be carried, and the additional tax on molasses should be introduced alone, he would vote for it, but he would not vote for them together. He did not think the tax on sugar would fall upon the poor, particularly as fine sugar would be taxed equally with the brown. He thought it was a fair object of taxation. He believed they should want revenue, and he did not know an article from which it could be better raised.

Mr. FINDLAY was at a loss to know how a tax on molasses would operate; but his doubts had been removed by the gentleman from Vermont, (Mr. BUCK,) who had informed them it was used by the poor in place of brown sugar. In many parts of Pennsylvania molasses was scarcely known, and brown sugar was generally used by the poor; if, therefore, the same class of persons in one part of the country used molasses for the same purpose for which brown sugar was used in other parts, it was only reasonable that both should be taxed in the same proportion.

His colleague (Mr. GALLATIN) had mentioned that his constituents would not pay any of this tax, as they made their own sugar. It was so with a part of his constituents, but not with the whole. As it would be unjust to pass one tax without the other, he should be in favor of the amendment.

Mr. GALLATIN said, it had been charged against him, that he had introduced his amendment with a view to defeat the tax on sugar. He had already said that he did not wish for any indirect tax during the present session; but, at the same time, he considered it his duty, if a majority should choose to pass the resolution, to make it as good as possible before he voted against it, for this purpose he had introduced his amendment. Whenever the duty on sugar was increased, that on molasses should also be increased. With respect to what had been said about the duty on brown sugar not falling upon the poor, it was contradicted by the quantity every year imported into the United States. When they knew that this amounted to twenty-two millions of pounds weight, they must conclude that it was used by the poor as well as the rich; for though the Eastern States used a great deal of molasses, it was not the case in the Middle, Southern, and Western States; all classes of citizens in those States used sugar. The voting for the amendment now was the same as voting for it in any other shape. It was doing now what would be done hereafter, if now omitted. There was nothing informal in it. He saw no reason which could be urged for one taking place, which would not equally hold with respect to the other.

Mr. SWANWICK thought that those gentlemen who separated the articles of sugar and molasses, would wish to defeat the object; thus it was with the gentleman last up. This was introduced with a view of securing the collection. Mr. S. said he had before stated the injury the United States might sustain in case of a failure of pay from the imported, and need not repeat that he objected _in toto_ to the tax.

Mr. BUCK asked if, when on the question on the resolution, (if, adopted,) a separate vote could be given? He was answered no. Then he would observe to the gentleman that, if it could not be separated, he hoped it would not be introduced, it having been said the duty on sugar would operate on the poor; now, he said, here was an article introduced with it that would operate worse than the other; therefore, he should oppose both, if put together, when, if separated, he should have voted for the tax on molasses alone, as sugar was a great means of sustenance and use.

The Chairman again remarked (in reference to what had fallen from Mr. W. SMITH) that the amendment was in order, though he did not think it the most fair way of introducing the subject.

Mr. GALLATIN conceived that he was the best judge of the fairness of his proceedings; and as the Chairman had declared the amendment to be in order, he expected a question would be taken upon it.

Mr. NICHOLAS begged leave to differ in opinion from the Chair in this instance, though he must own much deference was due to it: he thought the proceedings perfectly fair. Mr. N. would vote for this, in order to have the two connected; that gentleman could now vote against the addition of molasses, then he would have an opportunity to vote on sugar alone. He should wish it extended to both alike. The gentleman (Mr. BUCK) was mistaken in his application on this subject; it was not taxing the sustenance of the poor in one article more than another, for the sugar would most affect one part, yet molasses would as much affect another; he, therefore, hoped, if gentlemen wished fair and equal taxation, that this association would take place; this equalization would go to prevent any opposition to the tax, which would otherwise be hazarded.

Mr. BUCK was satisfied with this explanation; therefore, supposing gentlemen who supported the amendment would vote for both, according to this modification, he should go with them; if not, he should oppose the amendment.

Mr. DAYTON (the Speaker) said, he did not rise to speak to the point of order; he considered that as already settled by the Chairman. Every member, he said, against laying an additional tax upon molasses, would, of course, vote against the amendment; and all those who had no objection to the tax, but who did not wish it to be thus introduced, of whom he found there was not a few, might join them, as, after the additional tax on sugar was agreed to, that on molasses might be again introduced.

Mr. S. SMITH said, he had some doubt before the last gentleman was up, of the propriety of tacking these two articles together, but now he had none. One part of the Union, he supposed, would be for voting out molasses: but his constituents would not like the tax on sugar, except it was accompanied with that on molasses; as a subject of sweetening he thought they should both go together. Mr. S. said, he had another article of sweetening, which he wished also to add to the resolution: great quantities of sugar-candy were manufactured in Holland and sent all over Germany; it was used with tea and coffee, in the place of sugar. This article, he said, was finding its way among the Germans in this country. At present it only paid a duty of 10 per cent. _ad valorem_, which was a very inadequate duty, when compared with that paid on sugar. Mr. S. said, he was against going into the subject of indirect taxes, but he thought with the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. GALLATIN) that it was his duty to make the resolution as good as he could. Nothing had been said to prove that we had not revenue enough for the present; but he would, however, move to add nine cents a pound upon sugar-candy imported.

Mr. S. said, he agreed with the Secretary of the Treasury, that sugar was amongst the most proper articles upon which to lay an additional impost; but he wished for some permanent source of revenue, and not adopt the trifling modes proposed. Gentlemen talked of deceiving the people; he said they could not be deceived; they would know there were two parties in that House, the one for direct, the other for indirect taxes. Those gentlemen who were opposed to direct taxes brought forward these articles in place of it. The people need not be told this; they saw it evidently enough.

Mr. HOLLAND said, though he was opposed to direct taxes, he was also on sugar and molasses; he saw all the disadvantages of some other gentlemen on taxing West India produce at this critical juncture; but if it must pass, he should think it his duty to endeavor to make it pass as unexceptionably as possible; however, he should oppose both, and though it affected his constituents differently from those of Vermont, yet he should not include them as necessarily connected. Mr. H. thought if these were opposed, there might be many articles more proper to lay a tax on; but he thought there was no necessity for any this session.

The question for adding one cent per gallon on molasses was then put and carried.

Mr. S. SMITH then moved that nine cents per pound be laid on sugar-candy imported, observing that it was much used by the Dutch, and there being much sweetening in it, it should bear a proportionate duty.

Mr. W. SMITH wished the gentleman to be candid on the motive of his proposition.

Mr. S. SMITH answered, that his conduct with respect to the subject had always been fair and unequivocal; he wished the whole proposition to be defeated, which he had before declared, but, to make it equal and consistent, he proposed the addition.

It was then put and carried.

The question was put on the whole resolution, as amended, and carried--yeas 52.

FRIDAY, February 17

_Increase of Duties._

SALT.

Mr. HARPER then proposed that an additional duty of five cents per bushel should he laid upon all salt imported in the United States. [Mr. H. read the letter of the Secretary, wherein he mentions salt as being at a much lower rate of duty than in other countries, and that no tax laid upon it could be evaded, from its necessity and bulk.] Mr. H. added, as, in his opinion, satisfactory answers had been given to the objections which had been urged against this tax, it was not necessary to say more on the subject.

Mr. GALLATIN said the arguments of the Secretary of the Treasury were excellent fiscal arguments, and went to say, "provided we can get money, no matter how." He says salt cannot be smuggled; that we know: whether the duty was increased, or remain as it was, the people must consume the same. This was true, and the same arguments might be used for taxing the light or the water. Of all the necessaries of life, a duty was most easily collected upon salt; and this was the reason which had induced other countries to tax it so heavily; and yet this was used as an argument for increasing the duty here; but he was not one of those who felt any consolation, upon such an increase of duty, that there were other countries where the duty was yet higher.

Mr. G. said, as to any satisfactory answers which had been given to the objections to this tax, he had not heard them; he believed they had not been answered at all; except, indeed, sullen silence might be deemed satisfactory answers; if it were, they had indeed been answered satisfactorily.

Mr. G. here repeated the objections to the tax which he had made on a former occasion, viz: that it would operate as a poll-tax; that it would fall partially on some districts of country, and upon some classes of citizens more than others. He said salt in that part of the country from which he came was already upwards of four dollars a bushel, and that it would be therefore oppressive to increase the evil, by adding fresh duties upon it.

Mr. NICHOLAS said a tax on salt was equally objectionable, whether it was considered as a poll-tax, or as a tax upon agriculture. As a poll-tax, every one would see the injustice of charging all men alike with a tax, without respect to their ability to pay it; as a tax upon agriculture, he was able to say something from experience. He was willing to give all the authority to the opinion of the Secretary of the Treasury which he could wish, but he could not yield his opinion to him. He knew that agriculture was at present very much depressed by the high price of salt; he had himself refrained from the use of it, by its dearness, though he believed his cattle had been the worse for it. The poorer class of citizens in the part of the country from which he came were generally owners of cattle, and employed themselves in taking care of them. These men found it at present as much as they could do to make a comfortable living, and any additional tax on salt would be very ill received by them. He was satisfied that it was a tax which would operate with great inequality; it was a tax upon one kind of employment--upon an employment which was generally pursued by the poorer classes, and consequently least able to pay it. It might be said, five cents a bushel was a trifle; but he said he objected to it from the principle of taking money where it could be got, as, if five cents were now to be added, the same argument would hold for adding another and another five on a future day.

Mr. HOLLAND was opposed to the amendment; he said no article which could be mentioned would bear a greater augmentation than salt; indeed the whole revenue of the United States might be raised from it, because it must be used by every person; but that was no reason why the whole burden should be laid on it. In North Carolina, Mr. H. said, it was four dollars per bushel, which was sufficiently high without adding to the price, and was always a cash article, and difficult to be had for that. It being an article of absolute necessity, the rich would not pay more, if so much, as the poor.

Mr. RUTHERFORD said, he was against this tax for two reasons; the first was on account of its inequality, and the next on account of its odiousness. A tax on salt, he said, was almost like taxing the common air. Farmers were obliged to use large quantities of it for their stock; it rendered them docile and easy to be managed. Indeed it could not be done without; a person was nothing without salt. The price at present was enormous on the frontier, and this duty would add prodigiously to it; for this reason he should give it his flat opposition.

Mr. FINDLAY said, because salt was necessary, and because it could not be smuggled, would not surely be sufficient arguments for increasing the duty upon it. The law of reason, he said, was the law of justice. Mr. F. gave an account of the progress of this tax. His colleague (Mr. GALLATIN) must have been mistaken as to the price which this article bore in the Western country. He had himself lately paid six guineas for six bushels of salt. Indeed this was considered as the greatest inconvenience in that part of the country, and they could not at present be relieved from it. Providence, who generally bestowed the necessaries of life in a very general manner, had not provided them with salt. And shall we, for this reason, monopolize a revenue upon it? For the same reason would hold good for paying the whole upon it as a part. He trusted they would not be so unjust to the people of that country.

Mr. HARPER said, after all the time which had been taken up in discussing this subject, he would not occupy the attention of the committee longer than while he made one or two remarks.