Chapter L: TREZEVANT and W. TIMMONS, Esqs (4)

Mr. JOSIAH PARKER said, when he gave notice to the House on Monday of the nomination of a Minister to go to France, and declared that, on that account, he should vote against this bill, he did not do so because he was willing to relax from any of our measures of defence or offence against the French; but because he thought the measure proposed by this bill puerile and ineffectual, and therefore unnecessary. When he made this declaration, he was sorry to differ in opinion from the gentleman from Massachusetts, with whom he had had the honor to vote very frequently. At the same time that he said this, he declared himself ready to abide by every measure of defence yet adopted, and even to take higher ground than has yet been taken: for he had no opinion either of the magnanimity or sincerity of the French Republic. He believed they had no desire for peace, except such as arose from their changed situation. He thought it better, however, not to go into any little, irritating measure, like this. The PRESIDENT had heretofore told the House that he would never send another Minister to France until he received assurances that he would be properly received; he believed the PRESIDENT had received these assurances from the French Minister at the Hague, through our Minister there.

Mr. P. thought the second section of this bill, allowing a salvage on the retaking of any of our vessels, ought to pass; the first he hoped would be struck out.

Mr. PINCKNEY was sorry to differ in opinion from the gentleman just sat down as to the expediency of passing this bill. He did not think it a measure of great importance; but, as an additional measure of defence, it may have some effect, and he was therefore for agreeing to it. He thought the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. GALLATIN) had put the prospect of a negotiation with France upon a proper footing; and he agreed with that gentleman that we ought not to vary the ground we have already taken; but he did not think that any augmentation of force would be going off the ground originally taken.

What, asked Mr. P., was the ground taken at the last session, and acted upon at this? It was, that we should, by all means in our power, prepare for our defence, more especially that we should add to every measure of defence to which our revenue is adequate, on the ocean. We have shown this to be our determination both at the last session and this, and our preparations have only been limited by our ability to make them. This measure, therefore, is a continuance of the same ground.

This bill reverts, therefore, altogether upon the question of expediency, and this he thought the proper footing on which to place it. The gentleman from Pennsylvania has objected to its expediency, because he says it will be inefficacious. Mr. P. would give a short answer to this, which was, that its expense will be commensurate with its utility. There is no doubt, if it has any effect at all; if it induces any private armed vessels of the United States to bring into our ports privateers which are depredating on our commerce, no moderate reward could be too great to be given for this advantage. And if there is nothing done; if the law proves ineffectual, then the public is nothing out of pocket. It is one of those cheap expedients which may be beneficial, but which can have no bad consequences.

Mr. HARPER believed that gentlemen, in their deliberations on this subject, have fallen into some mistakes as to the course which this bill took at the last session. Mr. H. gave the history of this bill, and also spoke of the decision which had taken place in Committee of the Whole as by no means conclusive. On the general policy of the measure, he was not inclined to make any observations. He believed it was well understood; but he would not omit this occasion of declaring, that, in his opinion, its policy had not been changed by the nomination which has taken place of a Minister to treat with the French Republic.

It is said that an intimation has been made, not through the Dutch Minister, but through the Secretary of Legation at the Hague, to our Minister there, that the French government is disposed to receive any Minister Plenipotentiary which we may choose to appoint, suitable to the dignity due to the representative of a great, free, and independent nation. This intimation having been given to the PRESIDENT, he has thought it proper to meet the advance so far as to nominate a Minister, which Minister is to go to France, provided he shall receive assurances of being properly received, and a Minister of equal rank appointed to treat with him.

This change, Mr. H. said, from haughty insolence; from the expulsion of our Minister; from a demand of tribute; from requiring apologies for speeches; from outrage and insult, to the mild language of supplication, must certainly have been owing to the measures of this Government, and therefore clearly evinced the policy and propriety of these measures. We have thus far, said Mr. H., seen the good effects of buckling on our armor, at the same time that we hold out the olive branch. And instead of relaxing, we ought now to brace up the system; not that he would wish to take any new ground but merely reinforce and invigorate the system already established. This he thought the true policy of this country. Whether this application for a negotiation on the part of the French Republic may arise from sincerity, or from a wish to wheedle this country to their own advantage, or because they perceive we are not to be bullied into submission, and therefore it is best to live on friendly terms with us, he held it wise policy in us to enlarge our means both of defence and offence, until our dispute with France is brought to a close. He, therefore, thought it of more importance to adopt this measure now than heretofore; because, if it is not carried, it may be supposed that we have forborne to adopt it, because we are disposed to relax the instant we have information that a negotiation is likely to be opened, and that they may at any time unnerve our arm by a proposition to negotiate. Therefore, if he had before been against this measure, he should now be in favor of it, because, if it had no other good effect, it would convince the government with which we are about to treat, that the same vigorous measures which have produced this negotiation will still be continued, and that though we are treating for peace, we are preparing for war, and that we are determined to do ourselves justice, if they refuse to do us justice. For these reasons he hoped the bill would pass.

Mr. LIVINGSTON said, that considering how great a favorite this measure had been of its partial parents, it was the most unlucky child that ever showed its face in the House. It had scarcely seen the light at the last session, when it was lost in the short passage from its nursery in the committee to the House, because those who were most interested in its preservation, by accident, did not happen to vote for it. Another accident of the same nature prevented its passage when it was again attempted in the same session. At the interval of a year, the same ill fortune seemed to pursue this unlucky bantling. It had scarcely taken its first step into existence when the same forgetfulness seemed to seize all those who had the care of it. Again, it was lost in the committee; again it accidentally expired; and all the efforts to revive it, he believed, would be in vain. Mr. L. then went into a history of the bill to show that it was lost, not by accident, but because a majority were opposed to it.

Mr. L. said, he understood that France proposes to receive a Minister from this country on the very terms upon which only the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES has heretofore said he would ever send one. It was said to be improper to recede from the ground we have taken on this account, because the French may not be sincere. He had heard no such idea suggested, and gentlemen certainly do wrong in imputing motives to others without foundation. But when gentlemen come to the merits of the bill, they touch them very lightly. They tell you it is part of our general system of defence. Is this the case? How is it to operate? It is to operate as a measure of aggression, not of preservation, or self-defence; and though he was perfectly willing to preserve our present ground, he did not wish to progress in any measures of hostility, especially when so little advantage can be derived from it as is proposed by this bill.

Mr. DANA said that the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, in his Message to both Houses of the 21st of June last, declared, "that he would never send another Minister to France until he had assurances that he would be received as the Minister of a great, free, and powerful nation." The character of the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES for integrity and political fortitude, is well known and established, and that character is pledged for an adherence to the declaration above recited. Nor had he any idea of his receding from it. With a knowledge of this fact, we are to inquire what is the purport of the information which has been given to this House of a Minister having been appointed to negotiate with the French Republic. For his own part he did not consider the French Government sincere; and he was authorized to think so by the declaration of this House in answer to the PRESIDENT'S Speech. Nor did he think the PRESIDENT believed them to be sincere, and he was authorized in thinking so, from his communication to both Houses at the opening of the session. How, then, is the nomination of a Minister to be understood? It was to be understood in the same light in which we used to appoint Commissioners during our Revolutionary war, who were sent to Europe to treat with Great Britain long before we expected she would be willing to treat for peace; but they were possessed of eventual authority. So, in the present case, the authority proposed to be given to our Minister at the Hague, is only to be an eventual authority, that when he receives sufficient evidence of the sincerity of the French Government, he may proceed to treat with them. Nor did he believe that the Senate possessed any document informing them that the PRESIDENT has already received these assurances.

[Mr. D. here read extracts from the PRESIDENT'S Address to both Houses, from the address of this House in answer to it, and from his reply; in which the PRESIDENT states he can have no confidence in the sincerity of the French Government, while the decree which condemns our vessels as prizes, on account of having articles of British growth or manufacture on board, is in force.]

We know, said Mr. D., that this decree is, however, yet in force; and yet gentlemen pretend to say that the nomination which has taken place is a proof that the PRESIDENT has now some reliance on the sincerity of the French Government; whereas it is nothing more than a conditional appointment, such as he had already stated. No gentleman will hazard his political sagacity by saying, a negotiation is likely to take place whilst that decree is in existence; nor can any gentleman be found who will apologize for it, if it is so atrocious that its repeal must be an indispensable preliminary to any negotiation which may take place. Believing this nomination, therefore, to be nothing more than the naming of a person to treat with the French Government when it shall condescend to do us justice, the arguments of gentlemen built upon it fall to the ground. And if they attend to the declaration of this House, in the address already alluded to, they will find that we ought to advance in our defensive measures instead of receding, or even remaining stationary.

Mr. NICHOLAS supposed during the first half of the speech, of the gentleman who had just sat down, that he meant to vote against this bill, for he could not have supposed that he had quoted the PRESIDENT'S Message to Congress, in June last, for the purpose of making a declaration such as he has made with respect to it. He supposes that the PRESIDENT has received no assurances from the French Republic that our Minister will be received, though he has heretofore said he never would send a Minister until he had assurances he would be properly received; but that he has appointed a Minister to wait, as it were, at the door of France, for a declaration that he will be properly received. And he supposes that the declaration of the PRESIDENT will in this way be satisfied. Mr. N. believed, if the PRESIDENT has appointed a Minister, he will be received, because he did not believe he would have appointed him until he had good assurances that this would be the case; or, if he has, that he has certainly forgotten his declaration.

The gentleman last up had made use of a very extraordinary argument. He says the French nation is governed by different principles from any other. When we entreat them to be at peace, he says, they insult us; but when we give them cause to wage eternal war against us, they become humble and submissive. Mr. N. believed that this was not the first time that such measures have had this tendency; but it is the first time it has been acknowledged that the measure alluded to (the publication of the despatches containing the unauthorized negotiations of X, Y, and Z, he supposed was meant) was calculated to produce these direful effects. He did fear they were intended to have these mischievous consequences; but he hoped and believed that their being so notorious and palpable have been the means of defeating the intention, and of saving the nation from war, as it showed that the Government of this country had no desire to be at peace. The French saw that a war between the United States and them would have been a war of passion, in which they could have had no possible interest, and which would, above all other things, have proved agreeable to their enemy. They saw that there was a party in this country who wished for this state of things, and he believed the extremity to which things had been carried has defeated the object in view. I do believe, said Mr. N., that France is now disposed to make peace; that she is calling upon us to enter into negotiation, in order that the party in this country who are desirous of war may have no pretext for carrying their wishes into effect.

Mr. N. was astonished, that after a Minister of respectable character, a Minister chosen by the PRESIDENT, and who declared he accepted of the employment from a desire to support his administration, being well acquainted with the disposition of France, from his having resided there a considerable time--has asserted that, previous to their knowledge of the publication of the negotiations of X, Y, and Z, in this country, the French Government were desirous of negotiating a peace; that after having rejected two of our Ministers, and retained a third, the resentments appeared to be satisfied; and that, though, after they had received information of the publication of these despatches, their displeasure was for a while excited, yet before Mr. Gerry left France, the same disposition for peace had returned; though, from the disposition which appeared in this country, they were doubtful how their overtures would be received. And after we have now proofs that they have made overtures, in conformity to the sentiments exhibited in Mr. Gerry's despatches, it was astonishing, he said, that gentlemen should ascribe this offer to negotiate to the effect which the small force we raised has had upon them--a force which could not possibly have availed any thing against such a force as it might be expected would be sent against us, if it was the purpose of France to invade this country.

Mr. RUTLEDGE observed, that the effect of the measures which were taken at the two last sessions of Congress have been so different from what was predicted by the gentleman from Virginia that he was no longer inclined to give credit to his predictions. He has constantly been prophesying, but time and experience have shown his prophesies to be wholly unfounded. It was doubtless in the recollection of the House, that that gentleman thought it would be weak to rely upon a navy; he thought and said that many of the measures formerly taken would plunge the country in war, by causing a declaration of war on the part of France. The gentleman apologized for the length of his speeches, because he thought the measures of the last importance; and that if they were adopted, the scabbard would be thrown away, and it would not be in our power to resume it. But, instead of war, it is now found these measures have obtained for us peace--at least gentlemen say so. The gentleman from Virginia now predicts we shall have peace; but as all the former predictions of that gentleman have fallen to the ground, he trusted a majority of this House will not be inclined to give credit to his present prediction.

Much had been said about the diplomatic skill of France; and he thought her present conduct more deserving of this epithet than any of her former measures with respect to this country. Let gentlemen review the conduct of that country. She first attempted to bully us; but finding that we were not to be frightened, her next object was to obtain delay, in order to afford time for the spirit which had been roused by her injuries, to spend its force. When our Minister, Mr. Pinckney, first arrived in France, he was assured he would be received; but the French had an agent in this country feeling the pulse of the people, and finding that there existed a great deal of French mania, and a party upon whom they could rely, the French Government refused to receive our Minister. This country, still desirous of preserving peace, sent three Commissioners. What was then the conduct of the French Government? Our Ministers remained for months at Paris an unique spectacle, waiting in vain to be received. France has endeavored to palsy our Government--to produce delay--to give time for that noble spirit which has done so much honor to our country to spend itself. When she finds that our efforts to negotiate having failed, we buckled on our armor, and were determined to resist her injustice, the French Secretary of Legation at the Hague is directed to have some conversation with our Minister there; and assure him, notwithstanding this country had done acts enough to justify the most offensive measures, that if he will send another Minister to France, he would be received as an agent of a great, independent, and powerful nation. Gentlemen catch at this; but what is it but an attempt to arrest the arm of the Government of this country, just when it was about to strike a blow? And yet gentlemen are the dupes of this diplomatic skill.

Mr. LIVINGSTON was not surprised that gentlemen who had always been the advocates of war, at this critical moment, when all the horrors of peace stare them in the face, should seize every opportunity of postponing that dreaded event by questioning the sincerity of the offer to negotiate. [Mr. RUTLEDGE asked whether this had been done? The SPEAKER answered in the negative.] From those gentlemen this was naturally to have been expected, and he therefore excused their vexation and dismay. But Mr. L. said he was not a little astonished that others, who at least professed an attachment to peace, should betray such evident anxiety and uneasiness at its approach. The gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. RUTLEDGE) has said that he wishes for peace; that no class of men are more exposed than his constituents, and that he himself would be a great sufferer by war. Such wishes and such motives he was however inclined to believe would have prompted language very different from that which had just been heard. A gentleman really desirous of peace would not, he should have supposed, travel out of the argument to pronounce philippics against those with whom we were treating, or to question the sincerity of overtures which were made in the mode we ourselves had prescribed.

He would not ask gentlemen who pronounce so decisively on the subject; who tell us that no reliance is to be placed in French professions; that they promise only to betray; that, unlike all other nations, they treat us with disdain when we ask for peace, but like spaniels, crouch and fawn upon us when we use them ill, whether they had calculated the consequences of their doctrine? That would be demanding more from them than their conduct had given him a right to expect; but he would ask whether they had attended to dates, when they arrogated to their measures the credit of producing the present disposition for peace in the Government of France? Let it be remembered, said Mr. L., that the most earnest and pressing solicitations for an accommodation were expressed to Mr. Gerry; that he was repeatedly urged to negotiate a treaty, which it was more than intimated he might have on his own terms; and that, after his repeated refusals to treat, a Minister was designated to carry these pacific intentions to America--and all this before any account of those measures on which gentlemen so much pride themselves had arrived in France. Let it not be forgotten, too, that when the account of these measures did arrive, so far from having a beneficial effect, they were very near producing the one for which gentlemen now tell us they were intended, and for which they were indeed admirably calculated--that of provoking on the part of France, a declaration which could not be obtained here. Mr. Gerry very expressively gives us these important facts. He states the evident desire to accommodate before the arrival of the despatches, and the turn which their contents gave to the negotiation. The discussion was turned to unimportant points; the design of sending a Minister was relinquished; and every thing showed a design to protract the business, until it could be ascertained whether the United States were desirous of peace, or would receive a Minister if he should be sent. In this state of things, Mr. Gerry received orders to return. All further intercourse with France then ceased, until the PRESIDENT, by his Message to this House, declared the terms on which alone he would send a Minister to France. No sooner were these terms known, than the assurance is sent in the very words prescribed by the PRESIDENT, accompanied by expressions of an earnest desire to treat. In all this history, subsequent to the departure of Messrs. Pinckney and Marshall, he thought an evident desire had been shown for an accommodation, the sincerity of which he believed it was our duty to test--not by reproachful speeches and hostile measures, but by meeting their overtures for negotiation in good faith; and while we showed our desire for peace, not to trust too much to our wishes, but retain every measure of defence.

The gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. RUTLEDGE) had mentioned delay. France, he said, always conquered by producing delays. This he thought not a very applicable expression to the rapidity with which gentlemen traced their conquests. But on this occasion it was particularly unfortunate. It appears that the overtures which have now been acted upon were communicated by the Minister for Foreign Relations at Paris, to Mr. Pichon at the Hague, and by him to Mr. Murray, on the 28th of September; and we hear nothing of them until the close of February. He did not know when the communication was received here; but there was at least a probability, from the date, that it was before the opening of the session; before the adoption of all the expensive measures we have undertaken; before the loan was opened at eight per cent.; before the intemperate commentary was written on Mr. Gerry's despatches, with which we have been favored by the Secretary of State. Let gentlemen compare the language of that singular State paper with these proposals made to Mr. Murray; let them examine the respective dates, and then let them talk to us of delay.

Mr. SHEPARD could not think, with the gentleman from New York, that France is serious in her proposals to negotiate; he believed she meant to deceive us; and sooner than be deceived by them, he would fight the ungodly nation. After some other observations, he sat down, with hoping the question would be taken.

The question was put on agreeing to the report of the Committee of the Whole, and carried--52 to 48, as follows:

YEAS.--George Baer, jr., Abraham Baldwin, David Bard,
Richard Brent, Robert Brown, Samuel J. Cabell, John
Chapman, Thomas Claiborne, William Charles Cole Claiborne,
Matthew Clay, John Clopton, Thomas T. Davis, John Dawson,
George Dent, Joseph Eggleston, Lucas Elmendorph, William
Findlay, John Fowler, Nathaniel Freeman, jr., Albert
Gallatin, James Gillespie, Andrew Gregg, William Barry
Grove, John A. Hanna, Carter B. Harrison, Jonathan N.
Havens, Joseph Heister, David Holmes, Walter Jones, Edward
Livingston, Matthew Locke, Matthew Lyon, Nathaniel Macon,
Blair McClenachan, Joseph McDowell, Anthony New, John
Nicholas, Josiah Parker, Thompson J. Skinner, Samuel Smith,
William Smith, Richard Dobbs Spaight, Peleg Sprague,
Richard Sprigg, Richard Stanford, Thomas Sumter, Abram
Trigg, John Trigg, Philip Van Cortlandt, Joseph B. Varnum,
Abraham Venable, and Robert Williams.

NAYS.--John Allen, Bailey Bartlett, James A. Bayard,
Jonathan Brace, David Brooks, Stephen Bullock, Christopher
G. Champlin, James Cochran, Wm. Craik, Samuel W. Dana, John
Dennis, William Edmond, Thomas Evans, Abiel Foster, Dwight
Foster, Jonathan Freeman, Henry Glenn, Chauncey Goodrich,
William Gordon, Roger Griswold, Robert Goodloe Harper,
Thomas Hartley, William Hindman, Hezekiah L. Hosmer, Jas.
H. Imlay, John Wilkes Kittera, Samuel Lyman, James Machir,
William Matthews, Lewis R. Morris, Harrison G. Otis, Isaac
Parker, Thomas Pinckney, John Read, John Rutledge, jr.,
James Schureman, Samuel Sewall, William Shepard, Thomas
Sinnickson, Nathaniel Smith, George Thatcher, Richard
Thomas, Mark Thompson, Thomas Tillinghast, John E. Van
Allen, Peleg Wadsworth, Robert Waln, and John Williams.

The second section was then amended by adding to it the usual enacting clause; but after some observations against passing it by Mr. SEWALL, since the first section had been stricken out on the motion for its going to a third reading, it was negatived. And so the bill was rejected.

_Expulsion of Matthew Lyon._

Mr. BAYARD proposed the following resolution to the House:

"_Resolved_, That Matthew Lyon, a member of this House,
having been convicted of being a notorious and seditious
person, and of a depraved mind, and wicked and diabolical
disposition; and of wickedly, deceitfully, and maliciously,
contriving to defame the Government of the United States;
and having, with intent and design to defame the Government
of the United States, and John Adams, the PRESIDENT OF THE
UNITED STATES, and to bring the said Government and
PRESIDENT into contempt and disrepute, and with intent and
design to excite against the said Government and PRESIDENT
the hatred of the good people of the United States, and to
stir up sedition in the United States--wickedly, knowingly,
and maliciously, written and published certain scandalous
and seditious writings, or libels, be therefor expelled
this House."

Mr. B. said he had only to remark that this resolution is copied from the record of the trial, which he had in his possession.

Mr. NICHOLAS said, if this had been a candid statement of the business, he should have been willing to have come to an immediate vote upon it; but words are introduced into this resolution (which are words of course in every indictment) which do not particularly belong to this offence, and the truth of which is never inquired into upon a trial. As he wished the nature of the offence to be clearly stated, he hoped the motion would lie for the present.

Mr. BAYARD observed he had already said the terms used are copied from the record itself, and he did not think the gentleman from Virginia had been wiser than the law. He had himself no doubt that all the charges on the record are pertinent to the subject; if not, it would be extremely improper to introduce them. They are charges upon which a jury of the country have decided.

Mr. NICHOLAS appealed to the gentleman from Delaware, and to all other gentlemen of the law who heard him, whether the words here used are not the mere form of the indictment, and unconnected with the act here charged. He moved to adjourn, which motion was carried without a division.

FRIDAY, February 22.

_Alien and Sedition Laws._

Mr. BARD presented several petitions and remonstrances from 1,487 inhabitants of the county of Franklin, in Pennsylvania, praying for the repeal of the alien and sedition laws; which having been read,

Mr. BARD moved to have this petition referred as usual.

Mr. HARPER inquired whether it would be in order to strike out a part of this petition. On being answered in the negative by the SPEAKER, Mr. H. said, he was always unwilling to object to the reference of petitions; but, on this occasion he could not help protesting against an atrocious libel contained in these petitions against the courts and juries of this country. Some time ago a great deal had been said on the subject of courts and juries in this House, and now we find the sentiments, as many others have been, reverberated in the form of petitions. It is here said, "that the sedition law had, in its execution, been used as a means of private vengeance, personal enmity, and party resentment." A charge so unjustifiable, and so untrue, upon the courts and juries of this country, he could not suffer to be referred without his protest.

Mr. GALLATIN observed, that the reference of these petitions is objected to, on account of what the gentleman from South Carolina calls a libel, which makes a part of these petitions. This, said Mr. G., is going upon the ground, which the greatest enemies of these laws have barely suggested might be taken, but which they thought scarcely possible, viz: that the right of petitioning might next be restricted, since the liberty of writing and speaking on the measures of Government was by law restricted: and now, taking it for granted, that the allegation contained in these petitions is untrue, the gentleman from South Carolina wishes to refuse these petitions a reference, without examining whether it is true or not. The petitioners say that the sedition law has been carried into effect under the operation of party spirit and personal revenge. The gentleman says that this is not true; but he does not want to have the allegation examined, in order to discover whether it be true or not, but to dismiss the subject at once; to tell the people, "You shall not be permitted to lay your petitions before us, if you dare to say that laws are carried into operation to gratify party spirit or private revenge, (for nothing is said of courts and juries,) if they contain such allegations, we will reject your petitions." Mr. G. hoped, on examination of the fact, the House would be convinced that though the charge is not a libel, that it is at least a gross mistake; that no such personal enmity, party spirit, or private revenge, has taken place, either in the commencement of any prosecution under this law, or in any decision which has taken place. But thus to object to the reference of petitions, would be to say that we have the power of defining the nature of petitions; that they may apply to this and that object, but that there are certain points which the people may not touch. He wished to know whether the people have not a right to say, if they choose, that the administration of justice is corrupt? and whether, if they do say so, the fact ought not to be inquired into? It certainly ought, and he was surprised to hear such an objection made. It must have arisen, because these petitions are grating to the feelings of gentlemen who are favorable to these laws. He hoped, on recollection, that the reference of petitions does not imply an approbation of the sentiments contained in them, that the gentleman from South Carolina would permit these petitions to be referred.

Mr. HARPER was not surprised that the gentleman from Pennsylvania should defend these petitions, for reasons which every man must know. What he has said upon the subject is no more than a repetition of some things which we have before heard. He agreed that, when grievances are complained of, they ought to be examined; and if the people were to complain of a maladministration of justice, the fact ought to be inquired into; but when the repeal of a law is prayed for, it certainly cannot be proper for petitioners to go into charges against the administration of courts and juries, by saying that prosecutions are carried on under party malice and party revenge. To do this is to strike at the vitals of our constitution. The gentleman from Pennsylvania likes this, perhaps, from party motives, but he ought to remember that it is an instrument which will cut both ways; and the use of which, if he has any respect for the laws and rights of his country, he may live to regret having countenanced. Mr. H. said, if in order, he would move to refer this part of the memorial to a select committee, with a view of inquiring into the subject-matter, and report their opinion thereon to the House.

The SPEAKER declared such a motion out of order; and, after some observations from Mr. NICHOLAS, in which he said the gentleman from South Carolina had answered himself, by allowing the propriety of a reference at all; and observed, if because these petitions complained of the administration of one part of our Government (which, however, he did not allow they do) they were to be rejected, it might be expected that, hereafter, no petition would be received that complained of the maladministration of any department of the Government.

The reference was carried, there being 55 votes for it.

Mr. GALLATIN presented petitions from six hundred and seventy-eight inhabitants of Chester County, praying for the repeal of the alien and sedition laws, in the same words with those presented yesterday.

_On expelling Matthew Lyon._

Mr. BAYARD called up for consideration the following resolution, which he had laid upon the table a day or two ago:

The resolution having been read, Mr. B. presented to the House a copy of the record of Mr. Lyon's trial, which was read by the Clerk, after which,

Mr. B. observed, it would not be necessary to trouble the House with many observations in support of this resolution. The facts upon which the resolution is founded, are proved to be incontrovertibly true, by the record which had just been read. The only question, therefore, before the House was, as to the consequence of the fact, or whether the crime of which the member in question had been convicted, is a sufficient cause for expulsion. Mr. B. referred the House to that clause of the constitution which gives the House the power of expulsion. The power, said he, is unlimited. The House has the power to expel a member for any crime, or for any cause, which, in their discretion, they conceive has rendered him unfit to remain a member of the body. Perhaps some gentlemen may think that it is improper for the House to take notice of acts done by its members out of the House, but he believed the fallacy of such a doctrine would be easily seen. It was certainly possible, and might, therefore, be imagined, that a member of this House, might be guilty of murder, treason, perjury, or other infamous crime, and would it be asserted that a man, defiled by crimes of this kind, ought to be suffered to represent a portion of the people of the United States in the National Legislature? He trusted that no gentleman, who valued reputation, would contend for such a point. The question, then is, said Mr. B., whether the act in question is an act of that description, the commission of which ought to induce the House to expel the convicted member? In his opinion, the crime was of the first political magnitude. A crime not only affecting the members of this House, but the whole community, as its consequences go to the subversion of the Government. This Government, said Mr. B., depends for its existence upon the good will of the people. That good will is maintained by their good opinion. But, how is that good opinion to be preserved, if wicked and unprincipled men, men of inordinate and desperate ambition, are allowed to state facts to the people which are not true, which they know at the time to be false, and which are stated with the criminal intention of bringing the Government into disrepute among the people. This was falsely and deceitfully stealing the public opinion; it was a felony of the worst and most dangerous nature. The member from Vermont has been convicted of doing this, with a view of exciting the hatred of the people against the PRESIDENT and Senate, and of stirring up sedition in the country. This, in his opinion, was a crime of the greatest magnitude, since it is all-important that the channel by which information is conveyed to the people should be preserved as pure as possible; for, if men are allowed to state things as facts, which they know to be false, what will be the consequence? However upright the Government, or however correct the First Magistrate may be, the hatred of the people may be excited against them by means of false information; and when a foreign foe, or domestic traitors, join the standard of rebellion, the best constitution and government may be subverted. Therefore, that falsehood which deprives men of the means of forming a true judgment of public affairs, in this country, where the Government is elective, is a crime of the first magnitude. The member from Vermont has been convicted, under aggravated circumstances. He was on this floor when the law, against which he has offended, was passed. He, therefore, was well acquainted with the law; yet, with this knowledge, he has falsely, scandalously and maliciously, defamed the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, with a view of exciting hatred, and stirring up sedition. These facts are recorded and incontrovertible; and he conceived it would be out of order to call them in question.

Mr. B. concluded with appealing to the candor and honor which he expected to find in the House, whether a member, the malice of whose heart, and the falsehood of whose pen, stood recorded; who had, from the worst and basest motives, violated a law which he had himself assisted to make, was fit to hold a seat in that House. Will any one say that a man who does not keep the laws ought to be allowed to make them? Certainly, nothing was more repugnant to principle and propriety; and, as he conceived the member from Vermont was notoriously and exemplarily guilty in this respect, an obligation rested on the House to expel him. Mr. B. said he brought forward this resolution from a sense only of public duty, from a strong feeling for national character. He knew but little, and should be happy if it were less, of the member who was the object of it. He could not be suspected of having been induced to the step he had taken by the miserable gratification of offering violence to the feelings of the member. He believed that nothing he had said, nor any thing which could be said, would awaken a single feeling. His sensations were of another sort, and excited in another manner. Mr. B. conceived he had done his duty, and if the House refused to purify itself by the expulsion of the member, it was a satisfaction to him to reflect that it would appear to the world that he had no share in the disgrace.

Mr. NICHOLAS had hoped that the gentleman from Delaware would have shown to the House something in this transaction which made the character of the member alluded to so infamous as to have rendered him unfit to hold a seat in this House. He should have thought that, after a member of this House had suffered so severely as the member from Vermont has suffered by fine and imprisonment, it would have been thought necessary to go into a consideration of the nature of the offence of which he is said to have been guilty, and to have shown that the guilt attaching to him was such as to defile the characters of the rest of the members to sit with him, before a vote of expulsion was taken. Indeed, Mr. N. had supposed that there had been but one opinion on this subject, and that no attempt would have been made to have inflicted a second punishment. The gentleman from Delaware, Mr. N. said, had confined himself in his declaration about this offence, to its being an offence against one of the laws of the United States, without showing the House what the offence was, or wishing them to form a judgment upon it.

Mr. N. was surprised at this second prosecution, because, if gentlemen will speak candidly according to the opinions which they formerly delivered in justification of the law, they will acknowledge that the whole of the charges brought against the member from Vermont ought not to have been inquired into under the sedition law; since two of the counts contained in the indictment are mere matters of opinion, not containing the least suggestion of fact; and the third rests so much on matter of opinion, that it is impossible, according to a sound construction of the law, for any guilt to be incurred by the act.

Mr. N. wished the House to attend to the nature of the charges exhibited against the member from Vermont, and to say whether they were not of such a nature as to render it difficult to say whether they are well founded, and, if they are well founded, then they are innocent. In the record from which he had copied the charges, there are three counts; two of them are founded on extracts taken from a letter, called "Barlow's Letter;" the third is for sentiments contained in a letter of the member's own writing. The two first turn on mere matters of opinion. Mr. N. read the counts as follows:

"The misunderstanding between the two Governments has
become extremely alarming, confidence is completely
destroyed, mistrusts, jealousy, and a disposition to a
wrong attribution of motives, are so apparent as to require
the utmost caution in every word and action that are to
come before your Executive--I mean if your object is to
avoid hostilities. Had this truth been understood with you
before the recall of Monroe, before the coming and second
coming of Pinckney; had it guided the pens that wrote the
bullying Speech of your President, and stupid answer of
your Senate, at the opening of Congress in November last, I
should probably have had no occasion to address you this
letter. But we found him borrowing the language of Great
Britain, and telling the world that, although he should
succeed in treating with the French, there was no
dependence to be placed on any of their engagements; that
their religion and morality were at an end; that they had
turned pirates and plunderers; and it would be necessary to
be perpetually armed against them, though they are at
peace. We wondered that the answer of both Houses had not
been an order to send him to a mad-house. Instead of this,
the Senate had echoed the Speech with more servility than
ever George III. experienced from either House of
Parliament.

"As to the Executive, when I shall see the efforts of that
power bent on the promotion of the comfort, the happiness,
and accommodation of the people, that Executive shall have
my zealous and uniform support. But, when I see every
consideration of the public welfare swallowed up in a
continual grasp for power, in an unbounded thirst for
ridiculous pomp, foolish adulation, or selfish avarice;
when I shall behold men of real merit daily turned out of
office for no other cause but independence of sentiment;
when I shall see men of firmness, merit, years, abilities,
and experience, discarded on their application for office,
for fear they possess that independence; and men of
meanness preferred for the ease with which they take up and
advocate opinions, the consequence of which they know but
little of; when I shall see the sacred name of religion
employed as a State engine to make mankind hate and
persecute one another, I shall not be their humble
advocate."

The two first counts contain the opinions of the writer on public and notorious acts. No act is charged upon the PRESIDENT and Senate which is not notorious. It is not an attempt to impose upon the world a belief of facts which do not exist. He called upon gentlemen of the law and others to say whether this law was ever intended to extend to matters of opinion. He was astonished that a record of this kind should ever come from a court of the United States. The law declares that the publications which it proposes to punish, shall be false and scandalous. Do gentlemen say opinions can be false which do not contain matter of fact? Another part of the law gives to the party accused the privilege of giving the truth of the fact charged in evidence; but it is impossible that this can be done, where the matter charged consists of mere opinion; and juries could not possibly say whether an opinion be true or false. They can only determine whether or not it is their own opinion.

If a man is to be subject to a prosecution for his opinions, what will be the consequence? We are, said Mr. N., sent here to form an opinion, and, when we return home, we are expected to deliver that opinion to our constituents: but, if the propriety of our opinions are not to be judged of by ourselves, but by others, what will become of us? No man will be safe; for, though he may have formed his opinion as correctly as possible, if twelve men are to sit upon it, and, if it should not happen to be their opinion, or if they should not believe it to be his upon whom it is charged, he will be liable to a severe fine and imprisonment. Is it proper, Mr. N. asked, for legislators to be placed on this ground? Or, will gentlemen say it was their intention to place themselves in this situation? They certainly will not; for who would consent to sit here, or of what use would it be, under such conditions?

The third count is somewhat of a different nature. Mr. N. said, in speaking on this subject, he was not giving his own opinion. If he were to give it, he should say he had no foundation for the fact here stated. There is no mode, however, of ascertaining whether or not it was the opinion of the member from Vermont, and if it were his opinion, there being no mode of determining whether the opinion is correct or otherwise, it was impossible to act upon it.

With respect to the first part of the third count, which speaks of "every consideration of the public welfare being swallowed up in a continual grasp of power, &c.," he supposed it would be agreed that it was an expression of the affection of the mind--an opinion upon the disposition discovered by actions. That part of it which relates to "men of real merit being turned out of office for no other cause but independence of sentiment, &c.," suggests a fact, but if this was his opinion, it is a matter so much connected with opinion, as to be scarcely distinguishable from it. And shall we be told, said Mr. N., that a member ought to be banished from his seat for uttering a sentiment of this kind, after having been told by the gentleman from Delaware, and others, that it was a complete disqualification for office for a man to hold a different political opinion from that of the Executive? He trusted gentlemen could not seriously think so. For, since if the fact were true, and the member from Vermont had adduced (as he believed he might have done) two or three instances of men being turned out of office merely on account of their political opinions, still the jury might have asked, "how do you know that the men displaced possessed superior talents to those who succeeded them?" This, though true, could not be proved, therefore the member from Vermont could not have availed himself of the advantage held out by the law. Gentlemen may say this is not necessary, as this law goes to many offences not capable of this proof; they may say that the British law on this subject goes to many others. But our law is not the same with the British law; there, though the libel be true, it is not less a libel, which is not the case under our law, which is an important distinction.

It was clear, Mr. N. said, that such parts of the counts as went to insinuate fact, were so connected with opinion, that it was impossible to separate them. It could not be said that the jury were competent to decide upon the truth of the case. The decision of twelve honest men on a point of fact, is, perhaps, the best security that can be devised for the security of justice; but if a man is to be convicted because his opinions and those of a jury are at variance, there is an end to all security. Men's opinions are as various as their faces, and the truth or falsehood of those opinions are not fit subjects for the decision of a jury.

Upon what ground does the member from Vermont stand? He is a representative of the people; and gentlemen could not shut their eyes against a notorious fact, viz: that the constituents of this member, with a full knowledge of this prosecution, have re-elected him; and if the people of Vermont choose to have a person possessing these opinions to represent them, who have a right to say they shall not? Indeed, if they are to be represented at all, they must be represented by the man whom they choose to elect.

The gentleman from Delaware had said, that all the offences of Mr. LYON were greatly aggravated from his being a member of this House. Mr. N. was of a different opinion. He thought it incumbent on a Representative to disclose his opinions on public affairs to his constituents; and this disclosure will become more necessary, in proportion as such opinions may be offensive to the administrators of the Government; as, when all goes on smoothly and well, there will be no necessity for calling the attention of the people to public concerns.

The gentleman has also said, that it would be out of order to contest the truth of any thing contained in this record. He thought differently, and that if it was proper to act upon the subject at all, it would be proper to assign a day to have a fair hearing of the business, to enable the House to judge of the facts. For gentlemen will not say, that courts and juries are so infallible, that there is no case in which the decision of a court ought to be revised. If the member from Vermont should think it necessary to demand this investigation, the House ought to submit to it.