Chapter M: X. again called upon us. He said M. Talleyrand was (21)

Mr. T. MORRIS.--If the honorable gentleman from Virginia (Mr. RANDOLPH) thinks that the extract of the report of the Secretary of the Treasury, the reading of which he has called for, furnishes the information demanded by my honorable friend from Delaware, he is mistaken. The Secretary's report gives you a general estimate of the expense of collecting the aggregate of the internal taxes, but does not specify the charge falling on each separate tax. From the statement exhibited by the Secretary, it appears that it costs twenty per cent. to collect the whole of the internal taxes; but if the detailed statement asked for by the gentleman from Delaware is furnished, it will appear that the collection of some of those taxes does not cost more than five or six per cent. To show how unfair it is to connect together the expense attending the collection of all the internal taxes, I need only refer gentlemen to an authority which I believe they will not dispute. If my memory, sir, is not very incorrect, it will appear by a publication of the present Secretary of the Treasury, written in the year 1796, that the tax on country distilleries cost in its collection near thirty per cent.; that on city distilleries about nineteen. These, sir, and other reasons, may evince the propriety of repealing the tax on country distilleries; but because this tax is expensive in its collection, because it may be liable to objections, does it follow that other taxes, such as the tax on carriages, on refined sugars, &c., which fall on the rich, and which are not expensive in the collection, does it follow, I say, that because it may be proper to repeal the first, that these are to fall too? It is, sir, in order to be enabled to make proper discrimination, to be enabled to know which of these taxes ought to be repealed, and which retained, that the gentleman from Delaware has moved his resolution. And here, sir, let me be permitted to express a hope, that the resolution now before you may not meet with the silent negative which was the fate of one intended also to procure information, and which I had the honor of laying on your table. I did and do still believe, sir, that the majority of this House could not have been actuated by proper motives in refusing that information. [Here Mr. RANDOLPH called Mr. MORRIS to order, saying that he had no right to impeach the motives of members. Mr. M. observed that for his part he was at a loss to know what was considered disorderly in that House, but that he would submit to the correction of the Chair. The SPEAKER determined him to be in order, and Mr. M. proceeded.] With regard, sir, to the course of proceeding which gentlemen have lately adopted, persevering in an inflexible silence, rejecting every proposition made by a member in the minority, without deigning to show its fallacy, refusing public documents for our information and that of our fellow-citizens, without showing, or even pretending to show, that they are unnecessary, I can only say that it militates against all my ideas of propriety. I have always hitherto supposed that every Representative on this floor had a right to be heard; that he had a right to call on the majority for their reasons both when they supported and opposed public measures. Gentlemen may, if they please, meet in what they have denominated caucuses when power was in other hands; they may then confer together about the measures in which they may think proper to unite; but, sir, if their debates are to take place there, and there alone, if we are not to be furnished here by them with the reasons which induce them to adopt public measures, they ought at least to open their doors to the minority, in order that, if they cannot hear their arguments in the proper place, they may not close them altogether. I trust, sir, that gentlemen themselves will see the impropriety of persevering in this line of conduct, and that they will consent to pay, if not to gentlemen in the minority, at least to their propositions, the attention and respect which they may deserve.

Mr. GRISWOLD said, that he presumed the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. RANDOLPH) had requested that the extract from the report of the Secretary of the Treasury might be read, and which the House had just heard, for the purpose of proving that the resolution under consideration ought to pass. Indeed that report, and the statement to which it referred, evinced in the most satisfactory manner that the information required by the resolution was absolutely necessary for the purpose of enabling the House to decide understandingly on the proposition, which it was expected would soon be brought forward, for abolishing the internal taxes. The Secretary in his report had declared that the expense of collecting the internal taxes amounted nearly to twenty per cent. on the amount collected. It appeared, however, from the statements to which the Secretary had alluded, that the tax on stills, the carriage tax, the tax on licenses, on sales at auction, and the tax on refined sugar, had been included in one class, and the expense of collecting all those taxes, without distinguishing the charges on each branch, had been stated to be nearly twenty per cent., whilst the expense of collecting the stamp duty, another branch of the internal taxes, was short of five per cent., varying only a fraction from the charges on the revenue from impost and tonnage. These statements might be satisfactory as far as they went, but it was obvious that in examining the branches of a revenue, with a view to the expense of collection, it became necessary to ascertain the precise charge which had fallen on each branch, and to obtain this necessary information, and which the report and statements had left defective, the resolution had been principally brought forward. And what had rendered this information peculiarly necessary at this time was the ground which had been taken in opposition to the internal taxes. The only argument which he had heard against those taxes, and which did not equally apply to the impost, was drawn from the great expense which had arisen in the collection. To enable the House, therefore, to decide whether the fact existed on which that argument had been founded, it became necessary to inquire in the manner proposed by the resolution whether the extraordinary expense with which those taxes had been charged might not be diminished, and whether the expense really existed in relation to each description of them.

Mr. G. said that he presumed no gentleman was prepared to say that the general expense of collection might not be diminished, and so far was he from believing that every branch of the internal taxes was subjected to the charge of nineteen or twenty per cent., he was perfectly confident that if gentlemen would agree to the resolution, the detailed statements, which the Secretary would furnish in obedience to it, would prove that the expense of collecting certain branches of those taxes would fall much short of the sum at which the same has been estimated.

The consent of the House, said Mr. G., to every call for information, had formerly been so much a matter of course, that he should not have troubled the House with any remarks upon so plain a question as the present, had not the experience of this day proved, that gentlemen were not always to be indulged by the House with the information which they required; and the profound silence which had at this time been observed by those gentlemen who could either admit or reject the resolution, appeared to indicate a determination on their part to refuse the important and necessary information required by the resolution. He did presume, however, that upon this occasion the House would consent to the resolution, and more particularly, as the report of the Secretary of the Treasury, which had been read at the request of the gentleman from Virginia, proved so clearly the necessity of passing it.

Mr. HUGER could not reconcile it with his sense of duty, to give a silent vote on the present occasion, nor could he but lament the strange and novel course of proceeding which gentlemen had thought proper to adopt. The intention, it would seem, was to repeal the internal taxes, right or wrong, and at all events; and so determined were gentlemen on carrying this favorite project into execution, that every thing like previous investigation, or even a wish to gain information on the subject, was hooted at and treated with the most sovereign contempt. Every, the smallest, reduction on taxes of any other description, was avowedly to be excluded, nor was any proposition to this effect deemed worthy of even a moment's consideration. The measure proposed, however, interested in a very particular manner that part of the community he had the honor to represent. They paid, it was true, a small portion of the internal taxes, but the various other taxes upon salt, brown sugar, coffee, &c., and the duties on imposts generally, fell more immediately and far more heavily on them. Was it not natural, therefore, that he should have some hesitation on the subject; that he should feel anxious to see this project thoroughly and completely investigated; that he should wish to receive every possible information which might either tend to satisfy his mind as to the expediency of repealing the internal taxes only, to the total exclusion of all others, or enable him to propose some other project, equally beneficial perhaps to the public at large, and which might at the same time accord better with the immediate interests of his constituents?

His constituents, he was proud to say it, had ever contributed with alacrity and cheerfulness to the wants and exigencies of the Union. They were prepared and willing, he was confident, to do so still; and he made not the least doubt but that they would readily subscribe to the exclusive repeal of the internal taxes, and submit, without a murmur, to the continuation of all the other taxes, however burdensome to themselves, provided they are convinced and well satisfied that this measure was fairly and impartially adopted for the welfare of the whole, and not for the benefit of the one at the expense of the other division of the country. It was for this purpose, therefore, that he wished the present motion to be adopted, and that he had desired the attention of the Committee of Ways and Means to be directed, particularly, to those articles of importation and of general use and necessity, such as salt, sugar, coffee, common teas, &c. He was desirous that these and similar items should be compared with the carriage tax, the tax on licenses to retail spirituous liquors, and various other similar items of the internal taxes, and that the House might be furnished with such information with respect to both, as might enable him to judge, whether there might not be a partial repeal as well of some of the external as internal taxes, and not a total and exclusive reduction of the latter, as was contemplated; whilst all the former, however grievous and inconvenient, were to be retained. Did he then ask any thing which was unreasonable or improper? Could any possible inconvenience accrue from allowing him to obtain the information he desired? If not, why refuse to indulge him in what he deemed useful, and what (at the worst) could only be regarded by gentlemen themselves as superfluous information? Was it fair; was it becoming; did it comport with that civility and politeness which was due from the one to the other, by citizens of a common country, assembled together for the express purpose of consulting upon their common interests, to treat thus cavalierly what must at least be allowed to be a respectable minority?

With respect to the two only reasons which had ever been offered in favor of the exclusive repeal of the internal tax, viz: the expense and number of officers required to collect it, was it not the immediate and precise object of the resolution under debate to inquire whether it was not possible to devise some means by which these inconveniences might be obviated, or at least greatly lessened? And what objection could there be to the inquiry? Were gentlemen perfectly and entirely convinced that nothing of the kind could be done, or were they apprehensive that the thing was in itself so feasible, that an inquiry of this kind would throw a stumbling-block in the way of the project already determined on, which although he would freely acknowledge, that as an abstract proposition it was expedient as much as possible, and to collect your taxes at as small an expense, and by means of as few agents as conveniently could be done, yet there was another still more important maxim which ought never to be lost sight of: this was, that the burdens of the Government, as well as the advantages which flowed from it, should be fairly, equally, impartially, and equitably distributed among every description of the citizens, in whatever part of the country they resided. If, therefore, it did happen, that a few more officers and a somewhat greater percentage were required to collect the taxes in one than in another part of the country, this alone would most certainly and indubitably not be a sufficient reason to do away all the taxes in the one, and throw the whole burden of the Government on the inhabitants of the other.

Mr. RUTLEDGE confessed himself much puzzled by the new forms of proceeding this day adopted. Ever since he had had the honor of a seat in Congress, it had been invariably the practice, when measures were proposed not agreeable to the majority, for them to offer their objections to them. This had ever been the practice, and the experience of its convenience offered strong reasons for its continuance. When the majority stated their objections to any measure, the minority in sustaining it answered them fully; thus, both sides acted understandingly, and when the proceedings of the National Legislature went out to the people, they were at the same time informed of the reasons under which their Representatives had legislated. This had not only been the usage in Congress, but the form of proceeding in all representative bodies with whose history we are acquainted. Even in the British House of Commons, which gentlemen had often and emphatically styled a mockery of representation, so great is the respect paid to public opinion, that the majority deem it their duty to assign in debate the reasons of their conduct. Although the Minister in England has quite as much confidence in the strength of his majority as gentlemen here can have in theirs, yet, in feeling power, he does not forget right, and his regard for public opinion is so great, that he never secures his measures by a silent vote. In these days of innovation, we, it seems, are to pursue a different course. When the resolution offered this morning by his honorable friend from New York (Mr. MORRIS) was taken into consideration, not a voice was raised against it. This profound silence made us expect a unanimous vote; but, in consequence, he supposed, of some outdoor arrangements, it was rejected by this silent majority. He had seen many deliberative assemblies, but never before witnessed such a procedure. He would not say whether this was respectful towards the minority, who, we have been told from high authority, have their equal rights--he would not say whether it was dignified as it regarded the majority, but, without pretending to any spirit of prophecy, he would venture to say it could not be deemed politic or wise by the people of this country.

When the doors of Congress were open, and persons admitted to take the debates, the people expected to be fully informed of the views and motives which governed the votes of their Representatives. But it seems our constituents are not to be treated with this heretofore common civility. In proposing measures we are obliged to guess at what gentlemen feel against them, (for they say nothing,) and to defend them, without knowing in what they are objectionable to those who govern in this House. This kind of governing is but ill calculated to produce harmony, to restore social intercourse, and to heal the wounds inflicted on society by the spirit of party.

The question was taken, and it passed in the negative--yeas 37, nays 57.

_Duties on Imports._

Mr. RUTLEDGE called up for consideration the resolution which he moved on Friday, on which the previous question was then taken, viz:

"_Resolved_, That the Committee of Ways and Means be
instructed particularly to inquire into the expediency of
reducing the duties on brown sugar, coffee, and bohea tea."

Mr. GRISWOLD hoped the resolution would be decided upon.

Mr. RUTLEDGE hoped the reference would obtain. These articles paid the highest rate of duties and were of the first necessity. In looking over the rates of duties on imports, he saw many articles that were taxed enormously high. Those in the resolution were of the first necessity, the duty high, and laid when they were at war prices; while the people received war prices for their produce, they could with convenience pay for these articles, though high. The object of the resolution was merely to inquire, and he did not see how it could interfere with any object gentlemen have in view.

Mr. DANA.--I beg liberty to tender the homage of my profound respects, for the dignified situation in which gentlemen have now placed themselves, and congratulate them on their silence. There is something peculiarly impressive in this mode of opposing every thing that is urged. It is seldom that gentlemen have exhibited such a remarkable appearance of a philosophical assembly.

"That dumb Legislature will immortalize your name"--is said to have been the language of a certain distinguished General to a certain nominal Abbé, who has been represented as having pigeon-holes full of constitutions of his own making. During the memorable night at St. Cloud, when the French Council of Ancients, and Council of Five Hundred, were adjourned--to meet no more--it may be recollected, the powers of executive government were provisionally committed to three persons, styled Consuls, and two of them were the General and the Abbé. From each of the Councils, twenty-five members were selected, to compose a commission, and assist the provisional Consuls in preparing a constitution for France. Of the numerous projects of constitutions presented by the Abbé, it is said no part was finally adopted except the plan of a dumb Legislature. This, the General instantly seized with apparent enthusiasm, exclaiming to the Abbé, "that dumb Legislature will immortalize your name!" And it was determined to have a _corps legislatif_ that should vote, but not debate.

It was scarcely to be expected that any thing like this would soon take place in our own country. But it is the prerogative of great geniuses, when in similar circumstances, to arrive at the same great results, although with some difference in the process. Nor can I forbear offering my tribute of admiration, for the genius who has projected a mode of proceeding among us, that so nearly rivals the plan adopted in France. I know not to whom is due the honor of this luminous discovery. After ascribing to him, however, all merited glory, permit me to examine the force of the argument relied on by gentlemen in opposition to the proposed resolution.

Their argument is silence. I hope to be excused if I do not discuss this subject in the most satisfactory manner; as silence is a new species of logic, about which no directions have been found in any treatise on logic that I have ever seen. It will be my endeavor to reply to gentlemen by examining some points which may be considered as involved in their dumb arguments.

One of these points is--that certain members of this House have pledged themselves to their constituents, for repealing all the internal taxes. They may have declared their opinions to this effect, before the election; and, being chosen under such circumstances, may now deem themselves bound in honor not to vary. The terms assented to between their constituents and themselves may, therefore, be viewed by them as the particular rule of their own conduct. But is this House to be regarded in the same light with the English House of Commons, during the early period of their history, when the knights of shires, and the representatives of cities and boroughs, were instructed on what terms they should bargain with the Crown for special privileges, and were limited to the price agreed on by their constituents? The situation of gentlemen who have thus pledged themselves to vote for repealing the internal taxes, must be irksome, indeed, if on mature consideration they should believe it more proper and more beneficial for the country to have other taxes reduced. Those who have entered into a stipulation of this sort, so as to feel it as a point of honor, are so peculiarly circumstanced that they might think it too assuming in me, were I so much as to express a desire that they would vote for reducing some of the duties on imports, instead of repealing all the internal taxes. It is to be hoped, the number of members who have pledged themselves in this manner, does not exceed twenty-five or thirty.

Another point involved in this argument of silence is, that other gentlemen may have pledged themselves to these, and given them a promise of support on this subject. It must be acknowledged that this was more than was required on account of their seat in this House. If any gentlemen have absolutely so pledged themselves to their constituents, it must indeed be difficult to convince them. On this point, their minds must be so differently constituted from mine, that there does not seem to be any common principle between us that can be assumed as the basis of argumentation.

Another point is, the Executive has recommended a repeal of all the internal taxes, and not any reduction of the impost. And will gentlemen act upon this as a sufficient reason for their conduct? Is it now to become a principle, that the Executive is to deliberate, and the Legislature to act, and that no measure is to be adopted unless proposed by the Executive? Would it not be better for the country to abolish this House, and to avoid useless expense, if it is to be nothing more than one of the ancient Parliaments of France, employed to register the edicts of a master?

The silence of the gentlemen may also be considered as having relation to their great desire for the harmony of social intercourse. To prevent its being disturbed in the House by debating, they may have come to a determination that all the great questions shall be settled by gentlemen of a certain description, when met in nocturnal conclave, and be only voted upon in this place. If such be the fact, it seems but reasonable that any of the members of this House should be admitted in meetings of the conclave, as delegates from the territorial districts are admitted into Congress, with a right to debate, although not to vote. If, however, this is thought too much, gentlemen should at least have galleries provided, so that other members of the Legislature might be admitted as spectators, and have the opportunity of knowing the reasons for public measures.

The question was called for, when Mr. EUSTIS begged the Speaker would state it, as, in listening to the arguments of the gentleman from Connecticut, he had forgotten it.

Mr. RUTLEDGE said he was much pleased by the question of the honorable gentleman from Massachusetts. When gentlemen ask, What is the question? it is to be hoped that they will respect its merits; but, from the scene this day acted, he had learned that the only inquiry with gentlemen would be, from what side does this come?

The question was then taken by yeas and nays, and lost--yeas 35, nays 58.

TUESDAY, January 26.

_Territorial Government for the District of Columbia._

Mr. SPRIGG reported a bill for the government of the Territory of Columbia.

[The bill establishes a Legislature, chosen by the taxable citizens of the United States one year resident in the Territory, composed of a House of Representatives, to consist of twenty-five members, seven whereof to be chosen by the district of Rock Creek, seven from the part west of Rock Creek, and eleven by the county of Alexandria. The Governor to be appointed by the President of the United States. The Territory to pay the Legislature, and the United States the Governor. The judges to hold their offices during life, unless removed by the President on the application of two successive Legislatures.]

Referred to the Committee of the whole House on Tuesday next.

A memorial and remonstrances of sundry inhabitants of the county and town of Alexandria, in the District of Columbia, was presented to the House and read, praying that Congress will not agree to any plan, or pass any bill respecting the government of the said District, which shall, by the establishment of a subordinate Legislative or subordinate Executive, or otherwise, tend to unite under its power, the two parts of the district, as separated by the river Potomac.--Referred to the Committee of the whole House last appointed.

THURSDAY, January 28.

_Lieutenant Sterret, his Officers and Crew._

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the report of a select committee of the nineteenth instant, on the resolutions of the Senate, in the form of joint resolutions of the two Houses, "in respect to Lieutenant Sterret, the officers, and crew of the United States' schooner Enterprise;" to which Committee of the whole House were also referred the said resolutions of the Senate; and, after some time spent therein, the SPEAKER resumed the chair, and Mr. Davis reported that the committee had had the said report and resolutions under consideration, and directed him to repeat to the House their disagreement to the said resolutions of the Senate, and their agreement to two resolutions contained in the report of the select committee thereupon, in the form of joint resolutions of the two Houses; which he delivered in at the Clerk's table.

The House then proceeded to consider the said report and resolutions: Whereupon, the resolutions of the Senate, to which the Committee of the whole House reported their disagreement, being twice read at the Clerk's table, in the words following, to wit:

_Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the
United States of America in Congress assembled_, That, as a
testimony of the high sense they entertain of the nautical
skill and gallant conduct of Lieutenant Andrew Sterret,
commander of the United States' schooner Enterprise,
manifested in an engagement with, and in the capture of, a
Tripolitan corsair, of superior force, in the Mediterranean
Sea, fitted out by the Bey of that Regency to harass the
trade, capture the vessels, and enslave the citizens, of
these States, the President of the United States be
requested to present Lieutenant Sterret with a gold medal,
with such suitable devices thereon, as he shall deem
proper, and emblematic of that heroic action, and the mercy
extended to a barbarous enemy, who three times struck his
colors twice, and recommenced hostilities: an act of
humanity, however unmerited, highly honorable to the
American flag and nation; and that the President of the
United States be also requested to present to each of the
Lieutenants, Porter and Lawson, of the Navy, and Lieutenant
Lane of the Marines, who were serving on board the
Enterprise in the engagement, and contributed, by their
gallant conduct, to the success of the day, a sword, with
such suitable devices as the President may deem fit.

"_Be it further resolved_, In consideration of the intrepid
behavior of the crew of the Enterprise, under the orders of
their gallant commander, and their receiving no prize
money, the corsair being dismantled and released after her
capture, that one month's pay, over and above the usual
allowance, be paid to all the other officers, sailors, and
marines, who were actually on board and engaged in that
action; for the expenditure of which charge Congress will
make the necessary appropriation."

The question was taken that the House do concur with the Committee of the whole House in their disagreement to the same, and resolved in the affirmative.

The resolutions contained in the report of the select committee, to which the Committee of the whole House reported their agreement, being twice read, in the words following, to wit:

"_Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of
the United States of America in Congress assembled_, That
they entertain a high sense of the gallant conduct of
Lieutenant Sterret, and the other officers, seamen, and
marines, on board the schooner Enterprise, in the capture
of a Tripolitan corsair, of fourteen guns and eighty men.

"_Resolved_, That the President of the United States be
requested to present to Lieutenant Sterret a sword,
commemorative of the aforesaid heroic action; and that one
month's extra pay be allowed to all the other officers,
seamen, and marines, who were on board the Enterprise when
the aforesaid action took place."

The question was taken that the House do concur with the Committee of the whole House in their agreement to the same, and resolved in the affirmative.

_Ordered_, That the said resolutions be engrossed, and read the third time to-morrow.

MONDAY, February 8.

_Imprisonment for Debt._

Mr. SMILIE called up his resolution that a committee be appointed to revise the laws respecting imprisonment for debts due the United States. His objects, he said, were two; to secure the debtor's property, and to inflict some penalty or provide some remedy instead of imprisonment for life.

Mr. RUTLEDGE was opposed to imprisonment for life, where the debtor gave up his whole property, and was unable to pay all. He had known, in South Carolina, revenue officers imprisoned for debts due the United States, who had been many years confined; men of good character, men of honesty, but who, through ignorance of transacting certain business, or their misfortunes, were unable to pay. He knew an individual of that State who had applied to that House for relief; his petition was referred to the Secretary of the Treasury; the Secretary felt a delicacy in interfering in the case; the petition was not granted; and the person had now been in jail five years, though his inability to pay did not arise from having wasted the public money, or from aught but misfortune; for he was acknowledged to be a man of good character. He was averse to such cruelty. Hence the necessity of making some provision that the innocent, when distinctions can, as in most instances, be made, may not be subjected to cruel punishments, that were of no benefit to the United States. Why send him to jail? Why lock him up there? Why prevent his being able to support his family?

Mr. SMILIE.--It is the case that when you exceed in making your laws what is reasonable, those laws, as the present concerning debtors to the United States, will not be executed. The present law cannot be put in execution. He wished some sufficient penalty. This was not the proper stage to give his sentiments; were it, he should say, he thought the defaulter ought to give up the property, and perhaps be imprisoned a period. But the Legislature are not the proper judges, and ought not to interfere; the Legislative and Judicial Departments should be kept separate. We want some uniform law, operating on all according to their demerit.

The subject was postponed till to-morrow.

FRIDAY, February 12.

_State Balances._

Mr. THOMAS called up his motion respecting State Balances, which is as follows:

"_Resolved_, That a committee be appointed to inquire into
the expediency of extinguishing the claims of the United
States for certain balances, which, by the Commissioners
appointed to settle the accounts between the United States
and the individual States, were reported to be due from
several of the States to the United States, and that the
said committee have leave to report by bill or otherwise."

Mr. BAYARD hoped the resolution would prevail. The debtor States, not satisfied with the settlement made by the Board of Commissioners, had asked for information respecting the grounds on which it had been made. The information had been imperiously refused. In his opinion it was but right, if the debtor States did not dispute the validity of the debts due to the creditor States, that they should agree to expunge the claims against the debtor States. Indeed, he had been assured that the commission was not instituted with a view of sustaining any charges against the debtor States, but for ascertaining the amount due to the creditor States, and funding them; and he believed it had been so understood at the time. This was an affair not determinable by the ordinary rules applied to individual cases. Many of the States, not expecting a settlement, had kept no accounts or vouchers; and however great the supplies they contributed under such circumstances, they received no credits for them; while those States which had been most careful in the preservation of vouchers, shared a different and a better fate.

Mr. B. believed it was the true policy of the creditor States to agree to the extinguishment of these balances. He believed they never could be paid, because no State allowed them to be due. They would not, therefore, be paid voluntarily; and he knew of no force in the United States to compel payment. Why, then, keep up a source of irritation, which could do no possible good, and which could only tend to repel some States from that constitution, which we all ought to endeavor to make the object of general affection?

Mr. SOUTHARD said, he had yet heard no reason that convinced him that the resolution offered was just or proper. It would be recollected that this contract was made under the confederation. In the establishment of our independence, great and various exertions had been made. In the contributions made, great inequalities took place, which were unavoidable. Generally, where the war existed, the States became creditor States. It was just that those States which had contributed more than their share should be repaid, and that those who had paid less should make up the deficiency. If the debtor States were not to pay their balances, why settle the accounts? To relinquish the payment would be, in his opinion, not only unjust but unconstitutional. The constitution says, "All debts contracted, and engagements entered into, before the adoption of this constitution, shall be as valid against the United States, under this constitution as under the Confederation;" and the present Government had recognized those debts as just. The gentleman from Delaware says, the settlement is not just. But this was barely the suggestion of his own mind. To sustain it, he ought to have shown its defects; but this he had not done.

Mr. MITCHILL was in favor of the resolution, as he believed a refusal to adopt it would be attended with unpleasant sensations. He judged so from an historical review of the business. The several States had associated together for their common defence, and, in the eye of equity, whatever that defence required, should constitute a common charge. The accounts of expenses thus incurred were not settled till the new Government was established. That Government fixed the mode of settlement; it appointed a board of referees, to report the debts and credits of the respective States. In this report, it was the fortune of certain States, notwithstanding the greatness of their contributions, to be reported debtor States. These States became debtors from the independent spirit with which they asserted their sovereign rights. Not relying on the general contributions, they furnished great supplies without making any charge to the Union; by exerting all their strength, they paid as they went, and preserved no vouchers of what they paid. This, he averred, was the case as to the State which he had the honor in part to represent; a State as willing as able to contribute, and which did contribute to a great extent; but which had neglected to preserve her vouchers, the preservation of which would have made her a creditor State. He believed, therefore, that in equity, the States were not bound to pay these balances. But to this it is replied, the award is final. He would not agree to that; he denied it. Besides, there was a want of coercive power in the United States to enforce those demands. From this consideration alone, we ought to proceed with lenity, and endeavor to make the settlement a peaceable one. As in other circumstances, we ought to make a virtue of necessity.

Mr. S. SMITH said, he did not rise to take any part in the debate, but in order to bring the subject directly before the committee. To do which, he moved so to amend the resolution as to make it read, "Resolved, That it is expedient to extinguish the claims," &c.

Mr. LOWNDES hoped the amendment would not be agreed to. He did not see the expediency of volunteering a relinquishment of the claims established against several of the States. The amendment was calculated to take the committee by surprise. The original resolution went merely to consider the expediency of a relinquishment; the amendment involved the principle itself.

Mr. HILL was desirous the amendment should not be made, not from any indisposition himself to agree to it, but from a regard to the sentiments of other gentlemen. Even if it was ascertained that these debts had arisen on a just consideration, yet, in his opinion, they ought to be extinguished, from the principle that, in our Government, whatever hazarded the harmony of the Union, ought to be avoided. Precedents were not wanting in which sacrifices were made to this principle. He alluded to the quieting the claims under Connecticut rights. But, whatever might be the general ideas on this subject elsewhere, he knew not a man in North Carolina, who did not believe the adjustment iniquitous. To show the committee how the citizens of that State felt, he would state a case that had occurred before the Board of Commissioners. Two claims had been made, both for the same amount and the same description of supplies, one on one side and one on the other side, of Pedee River; one in North, and the other in South Carolina; and, in one case, seven shillings had been allowed, and in the other, only sixpence for the bushel of wheat. The business generally was entitled to the attention of Congress. It had, in fact, already been attended to at different times. New York had extinguished eight hundred thousand dollars of her balance under certain provisions applied to her case.

Mr. BACON said, if the object of the motion was to go into a new liquidation of the old accounts between the United States and the several States, it would not only take up every day of the present session, but the work would be left unfinished for our successors. These debts had been incurred in a common cause, in which each State was equally interested, and towards which each State was bound equally to contribute. When Congress made requisitions on this principle, they were accompanied by a promise that there should be a final liquidation. This liquidation was made; the settlement was complete. But this settlement is now objected to, and what is to be done? Why we must annul the contract. This might satisfy some of the States, but he was sure it would dissatisfy others. He saw, therefore, no end to be answered by the motion. We must either set aside all that had been done, and begin _de novo_, to which this body is incompetent, or rest satisfied with what is already done.

Mr. R. WILLIAMS observed, that since he had held a seat in the House, this subject had been almost every session called up. The more he had heard it discussed, the more he became convinced of the necessity of getting it out of the way. He found that whenever it was brought up, all was imagination. One State contended that it had contributed largely, and another, that its exertions had not been surpassed.

We are asked, why relinquish these balances before we are solicited by the States? He would reply that North Carolina never had recognized the debt, and, in his opinion, never would apply for its extinguishment. He was in favor of the amendment, because the principle ought to be decided here, and not in a select committee. What, indeed, could such committee report? There were no vouchers or books whereon the settlement had been made to be got at. All they could do, then, would be to report the balances alleged to be due, which any member could at any time learn.

It seemed almost useless to go into arguments to show the injustice of the claim, and of consequence, the justice of the resolution. It had been justly said, that those States which had contributed the most, had, by the report of the Commissioners, the most to pay; and this was peculiarly so with the State of North Carolina.

Mr. W. had forborne to dwell on the injustice of these demands. But were he to enter on that branch of the discussion, he should say that the very act of destroying all the vouchers was of itself sufficient to justify any suspicion. He should say, that for what, in some States, there had been an allowance of one hundred pounds, North Carolina had not been allowed twenty shillings. Could, then, gentlemen talk of moral obligation, and say that this was a just debt?

Mr. T. MORRIS said, it was contended that the accounts should be opened anew and re-examined. The fears, therefore, of the gentleman from Massachusetts, were entirely visionary. The resolution was a simple one. It proposes to inquire into the expediency of doing away these debts. The amendment goes to determine the principle here. He thought it proper the principle should be settled here. But gentlemen say they want information. If so, after the amendment is agreed to, they may move for a postponement. If the amendment were carried, he would himself move a postponement.

It had been said that New York had had eight hundred thousand dollars of her debt remitted by the United States. But how did the case really stand? New York had availed herself of the act of Congress, not because she acknowledged the debt to be just, but because she preferred doing something to remaining in the situation towards the United States in which she stood. It was strange, then, to hear gentlemen say that New York had been favored. What was the fact? North Carolina, according to the gentleman, had not, and would not, pay one cent; and New York had discharged a greater sum than was due by all the other debtor States, with the exception of Delaware. She was, therefore, instead of being favored, placed in a worse situation than any other State. It was from the existence of this state of things that he wished a final decision to be made this session. New York having agreed to make certain payments to the United States, it was important to her to know whether the United States meant to enforce payment by the other States. Her situation would be truly unfortunate, if after agreeing to pay, the United States suffered her claims against the other States to sleep. She would not only have to pay her quota of the debts, but would see no prospect of deriving her share of benefit from the payments of the other debtor States.

Mr. MACON said the subject was a very old one, which had occupied much time every session for many years, and he thought it would be as well to try the question now as at any other time. No information of a select committee could throw any new light upon it.

There was a fact which ought to have great weight with the committee. One of the Commissioners who made the settlement, who was a member of this House, had, after the settlement, proposed a resolution to extinguish the balances of the debtor States; and he had stated, as a reason for this measure, that the principle adopted by the board had operated very harshly upon particular States. Mr. M. had it from authority not to be questioned, that in the settlement by the Commissioners, teams, with the usual number of horses, had not produced twenty shillings.

This subject had hung over our heads for eight years, and no scheme was yet devised for collecting the balances. How could they be collected? Congress had, it is true, authorized expenditures by the States in the erection of fortifications; but this very act was a tacit confession of the impracticability of getting the money into the public Treasury. As to a settlement with North Carolina, it was involved in great difficulty. In the act of cession of lands by that State to the United States, it was provided that the territory ceded should be pledged to pay a proportional share of the balance due the United States. How could that share be estimated?

Mr. M. regretted that this subject had been brought up. He should not himself have been for bringing it up, for he thought the claims of the United States not worth a rush. The truth was, the States had all exerted themselves in one great and common cause; they had done their best; they had acted with great glory. As to the State which he represented, he would ask if the first blood that had been spilled after that shed at Boston was not in North Carolina? and that was the blood of brother against brother. He desired not, however, to make comparisons, which were always unpleasant, but to show that North Carolina had no reason to shrink from an inquiry which would demonstrate that she had fully contributed her share in the common cause, without meaning to assert that she had done more than other States. Let, then, Congress decide at once, and abandon the claims altogether, or devise some plan for collecting them, that we may know how we stand.

Mr. DANA said, I hope the amendment will not be agreed to. However gentlemen may be possessed of a wholesale intellect, that enables them to decide on interesting questions without a moment's reflection, I confess I am not blessed with so happy an intuition. I do not know that I have ever been called upon to form an opinion on this subject. As to a reference of it to a committee, I think their investigation may be useful, and after we get that, we may take time to decide. But now the plan is changed, and we are called upon to decide at once the principle. This mode of transacting business may be called an economy of time. You may give it the name, but it is not the substance. For my part, I desire to proceed according to our old plan, and go through the slow process of investigation. This is my way, and gentlemen may rest assured that this mode of hurrying business is not the way to save time, but to lose it.

Mr. BAYARD declared himself in favor of the amendment, and he could not think, notwithstanding the remarks of his honorable friend from Connecticut, that any gentleman in the House was unprepared to vote upon it. The subject had been frequently discussed, and he believed that the House was then as well prepared for a decision as they would be for a century to come. It involved but a single principle; and, as to information, he could scarcely tell what information was wanted. He felt much of the indifference of the gentleman from North Carolina, (Mr. MACON.) He was sure the United States had neither the right, nor the power to recover these balances; and he repeated it as his opinion, that it had not been the original intention that the debtor States should pay them. Will gentlemen recollect that the commission was instituted under the old Confederation. Had Congress, then, a right to do any thing to bind the sovereignties of the independent States? All they could do was to pass resolutions making requisitions, which the States might or might not comply with. They could appoint Commissioners to settle the accounts, but could they impose the debts upon the States? No, they could not. It, therefore, never could have been contemplated that they would establish those debts. The only effect that could have been contemplated, was, that the creditor States might rely that, on a settlement, Congress would assume their balances.

On the question being put, the amendment was lost--yeas 41, nays 46.

When the original resolution for referring to a select committee the consideration of the expediency of extinguishing the balances was carried.

_Ordered_, That Mr. THOMAS, Mr. BAYARD, Mr. DANA, Mr. HILL, and Mr. BUTLER, be appointed a committee, pursuant to the said resolution.

And the House adjourned.

TUESDAY, February 16.

_Judiciary System._

The House then went into Committee of the Whole on the Judiciary bill from the Senate.[66]

Mr. HENDERSON.--I should not rise to offer my opinion on the great question before the committee, were I not placed in a situation different from that in which I have been since I have had the honor of a seat in this House. The Legislature of the State of North Carolina, one of whose representatives I am on this floor, have seen proper to instruct their Senators and to recommend to their Representatives in Congress, to use their exertions to procure a repeal of the law passed the last session of Congress, for the more convenient organization of the Courts of the United States, and the bill on your table has for its object the repeal of this law, and as I shall probably vote against its passage, a decent respect for the opinions of those who have framed and sent forward those resolutions, demands that I should give the reasons which influence my conduct.