Chapter L: TREZEVANT and W. TIMMONS, Esqs (2)

Mr. P. said he would not trouble the committee longer, except in one point, and that was as to the consequences which might flow from a declaration of independence on the part of St. Domingo. He should endeavor to answer the gentleman from Pennsylvania as to the consequences which it might produce to the Southern States. It was a subject to which he had paid all the attention in his power. He did, on all questions, endeavor as much as possible to divest himself of any thing like party spirit; but in this case, where he had himself so much at stake, in which his native country and every thing dear to him was concerned, his sincerity could not be doubted. Mr. P. did not himself believe that this bill would have the least tendency to procure the independence of St. Domingo; but as some gentlemen think it is probable that this may be the result, and as no one could say with certainty what the effect of any measure would be, he had considered the subject, and was clearly of opinion, that should the independence of that island take place, the event would be more advantageous to the Southern States, than if it remained under the dominion of France, considering the disposition which France has evinced towards us, (and of which he saw no prospects of a change,) and the present conduct of the inhabitants of St. Domingo. Nothing which we can do, said Mr. P., can bring back the internal state of that island to the state it was formerly in. Considering the inhabitants, then, in the light of freemen, whether will it be better for us, in the Southern States, to have to deal with them, as such, or under the direction of the French Government, unreasonable and arbitrary as we have found it? He had no hesitation in saying, that, it would be more for the safety of the Southern States, to have that island independent, than under the Government of France, either in time of peace or war. If our dispute with France should not be accommodated, and they keep possession of St. Domingo, they could invade this country only from that quarter. There is there a large body of troops, and their unofficial agents told our Envoys, that in case we did not submit to their conditions, we might expect an attack from that quarter. It would certainly lessen the danger from that island, were it to be separated from France; but remaining in the hands of France, and supported by the powerful navy of France, notwithstanding all the vigor we have shown on the ocean, we might be very much annoyed from thence.

If these people in St. Domingo find that we withhold from them supplies which are necessary for their subsistence, said Mr. P., though they are friendly disposed towards us, they will look elsewhere for support; they must either turn their attention to cultivating their land, look to Great Britain, or become freebooters. Which situation is it most for the interest of the United States that they should be in? Surely the peaceful cultivation of the ground; and to induce them to take this course, it will be our interest to supply them with what they have occasion for, lest they should get the habit of freebooters, and make our commerce the object of their plunder. He hoped, therefore, the motion for striking out would not prevail.

Mr. MACON had no doubt the gentleman from South Carolina had paid particular attention to this subject. It was to be expected that every gentleman from the Southern States would pay attention to it. In one respect, he was precisely in the same situation with the gentleman from South Carolina. He lived in a country that would be affected by any event, such as had been mentioned, and all his connections were there. It was the same with all other gentlemen from the Southern States. He differed in opinion, however, when the gentlemen said that we should have less to apprehend from St. Domingo, in case it should become independent, than whilst it remained a part of the French Republic. He believed the state of society to be such in that country, as not to admit of self-government. In case they separate from France, he should apprehend that the consequence will be, that instead of being ruled by one of the European powers, they would become the tools of them all, in turn, and we should probably have the same game played off upon us from thence, that we have heretofore had played upon us by means of the Indians.

Mr. M. said, that although the part of the bill moved to be stricken out, does not go directly to say that it has reference to St. Domingo, it is a little extraordinary that no other case will fit it. There could be no doubt, if the island became independent, we should have a right to trade to it; but he believed it would puzzle gentlemen to find an instance of a Legislature passing a law in order to fit a case which might happen. As he thought it improper, he hoped it would be stricken out.

Mr. GOODRICH said this amendment went to change the principle of the bill. The bill goes upon the idea that when any island in the West Indies shall cease to make depredations upon our commerce, our trade shall be opened with them, without regarding by what authority or force the change was effected. The matter is not placed upon the ground of any treaty whatever; for, said Mr. G., we can neither increase nor diminish the power of the PRESIDENT in this respect. A great deal of mist has been thrown on this subject. The effect of this amendment will be, that the person restraining from depredations upon our commerce must act under the authority of the French Republic; on the contrary, the friends of this bill wish not to examine by what authority the thing is done, provided that it be done. We have a right to say that our vessels shall go to any port we please; but, according to the doctrine of the amendment supposing the island of St. Domingo was conquered, we could not send our commerce there, nor could we send it to a place in rebellion; so that our commerce was to be affected by every change of circumstances which might take place. He hoped the committee would recognize no principle which shall say we have not a right to send our commerce wherever we please, whether the places to which our vessels go are in war, peace, or rebellion.

Mr. GALLATIN was astonished to hear the gentleman from Connecticut say that this is merely a commercial question. Let us, said he, examine the effect of this amendment. We are told that the provisions of this bill do not extend to any colony which may be conquered; for instance, to St. Martin's, St. Lucia, or any other colonies which have been conquered. Let us see, then, how it will apply if this amendment is rejected, and whether the question is commercial or political. Let us inquire, said he, what is the case provided for, if the amendment is rejected, and which is unprovided for if it is adopted, and it will then appear what ground is covered by the opposers of this amendment. If rejected, it will result, that all persons who may claim or exercise any command in any island, &c., although they have not that command under the Government of France, and who shall refrain from privateering, shall be entitled to a free trade with this country. The only case is a case of insurrection and rebellion. Suppose, said Mr. G., I should agree with the gentleman from Connecticut, that if once a rebellion takes place, or any colony shall declare itself independent, (but, by the by, the doctrine is not countenanced by the law of nations,) that we may trade there as we please. Does it result that we have a right to pass a law beforehand to contemplate such an event? If we do, it will be speaking publicly, thus: "If any persons shall, in any island, port, or place, belonging to the French Republic, raise an insurrection, and declare themselves independent, and shall be found to refrain from committing depredations upon our commerce, we will open a free trade with them." And yet the gentleman from Connecticut calls this a mere commercial question.

The committee have been told of a number of cases which he had been astonished to hear--cases which happened in our war. Gentlemen who have mentioned these have not attended to any of the facts of the war. Mr. G. referred to the case of the treaty made in Holland, which has already been explained in a former debate. Mr. G. said, gentlemen might put what construction they pleased upon this section; but certainly publicly to tell the French colonies that if they will rebel against their Government, and restrain from depredating upon us, we will treat with them, is to invite them to do it. A declaration of war has always been the consequence of such a conduct in other countries; and he supposed gentlemen are not ready for a declaration of war, though they tell us there is no change in our affairs for the better; that negotiation is at an end; that no idea can be entertained of the sincerity of any professions of the French; and not being ready to bring in a declaration of war, they are not surely ready to make it, or provoke it; and if not, why assume a principle that may have this effect? He hoped the amendment would be agreed to.

The committee now rose, and had leave to sit again.

THURSDAY, January 24.

_Death of Mr. Tazewell._

A message was received from the Senate, informing the House that HENRY TAZEWELL, Esq., one of their body, died this morning, and that they had directed orders to be taken respecting his funeral.

Afterwards, on motion of Mr. DENT, the House came to the following resolution:

_Resolved_, That this House will attend the funeral of HENRY TAZEWELL, Esq., late a member of the Senate of the United States, on to-morrow, at half past four o'clock.[42]

_Intercourse with France._

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, on the bill further to suspend the commercial intercourse between the United States and France, and the dependencies thereof, and for other purposes.

Mr. SPAIGHT'S amendment being under consideration,

Mr. HARTLEY said the general policy of this bill had been considered at the last session; and he had no doubt, that when any parts of the French dominions cease to depredate upon our commerce, we might, with propriety, open our intercourse with them. If, for instance, the Isle of France had fitted out privateers, and depredated upon our commerce, and chose to forbear to do so in future, and leave our passage to the Indian seas clear, it would be a good reason for opening our commerce with that place. The case of St. Domingo is still stronger, and has, as has been shown, the power of doing as much mischief, should we refuse to furnish them with the necessary supplies. If they call in their privateers, therefore, it would certainly be right to open our intercourse with that valuable island, especially since they appear to be abandoned by France, who has withdrawn all her troops from the island.

After some other observations, Mr. H. concluded with hoping the amendment would not be agreed to, as it would only tend to embarrass the bill, by making it necessary to ascertain the legality of the governing authority of the places with which we might open our intercourse.

Mr. BRACE was opposed to this amendment, as it came round to the same point with that which the gentleman from Pennsylvania had proposed. It struck him that, in the course of the debate, gentlemen have forgot the ground on which we stand. Our treaties with the French Government have been declared void, on account of the conduct of that Government. We have proceeded further, and suspended all commercial intercourse with France and her dependencies. It would be well to consider what kind of connection now exists between the United States and France, and whether a measure of the kind proposed can injure our present prospect of peace. By the arguments of some gentlemen it would seem that we are under some obligation or contract to that Government; whereas, we ought to consider ourselves, with respect to it, in no other light than we consider ourselves with respect to the governments of the world with which we have no connection. We have, therefore, no object to pursue, but what, in a dignified national view, it is our duty and our interest to pursue.

This separation having been effected by the wrong acts of the French Government, she can have no claim upon us; we have taken our stand upon such ground as can always be justified, whenever a spirit of justice shall return. There is no man, said Mr. B., in the House, who does not wish for peace, whenever it can be obtained on a solid foundation. But it was well observed yesterday by his colleague, (Mr. GOODRICH,) that this question is wholly a commercial one. This declaration gave offence to the gentleman from Pennsylvania. He was surprised that any one could suppose this to be the case. Mr. B. said he was equally surprised at the arguments of that gentleman. What connection had we with the French Government? or what connection had we with, any other, besides commercial? He had heard much clamor out of doors about other connections--about treaties offensive and defensive. He hoped no such connexion ever would exist between this country and any nation whatever.

Mr. SPAIGHT said, he wished to have given the reasons which induced him to make this amendment yesterday, but a motion being made for the committee to rise, prevented him. Having been a member of the committee who formed this bill, and having given his consent to it, he trusted it would not be believed that he brought forward this motion to defeat the bill; his object was to make it more palatable to many gentlemen, who, if an amendment something like the present was not adopted, would vote against the bill. The gentlemen from Massachusetts and Connecticut have said, that if this amendment is adopted, it will destroy some of the most important principles of the bill. He believed they had mistaken the effect of the amendment. They state that it will be necessary for the PRESIDENT to inquire whether the commander of any island with which he was about to open our intercourse, had his authority from the French Government? On the contrary, it appeared to Mr. S. that, so long as the citizens of any island acknowledged France as the mother country, whatever authority may exist there, the place must be under the Government of France. If an open rebellion took place, it would alter the case entirely. And if conquered by any of the belligerent powers, it would not then come under the bill; so that, in either case, the amendment could have no bad effect. The principal motive with him for moving the amendment was, in order to take away the objection made to it by many gentlemen, that the bill is calculated to produce the independence of St. Domingo; for he himself had no such view, nor did he think any other member of the committee, who reported the bill, had. He believed, if the wants of these people are supplied from this country, it will be better that they should remain under the Government of France; but, if we refuse to supply them with provisions, they may act as freebooters, or do still worse--throw themselves into the hands of Great Britain, in order to procure supplies. These reasons had induced him to make the amendment, and he should be glad to see it adopted.

Mr. CHAMPLIN could see no difference between this and the former amendment, which had been negatived. The design of this section is, to authorize the PRESIDENT to open the intercourse with any of the islands and the United States, whenever he shall deem it consistent with the honor and dignity of this country, without inquiring whether such place is under the French Government. Frequent decrees are passed in France, said Mr. C., for revoking the commissions of these officers, which are not enforced; and yet, if this amendment is passed, such a person could not be treated with, and it would always be difficult to ascertain whether an officer acted under the French Government or not. If the islands choose to cease from their depredations, he would openly trade with them; for the intercourse was originally suspended, not with a view of starving the islands, but to prevent depredations being committed upon our commerce. He was astonished to find that nothing could come before this House, but gentlemen are ready to object to it on account of the effect it may have on France. For his part, if the measure be beneficial to this country, he cared not what effect it might have upon France. It was said this provision would have a tendency to provoke insurrection, or the independence of the island; on the contrary, he believed, if this law does not pass, they will throw themselves into the hands of Great Britain, or become plunderers of our property. He hoped to see the intercourse opened, not only with St. Domingo, but with the Isle of France.

Mr. HARPER said, when this amendment was first made, he considered it as making no considerable change in the section, and was, therefore, inclined to vote for it; but the gentleman from Massachusetts, (Mr. VARNUM,) of whose discernment he had a very high opinion, having said that he considered it as making a very considerable change in the section, and declaring that he would, on that account, vote for it, he was induced to take a further view of it, and he found, upon reconsideration, that it would, indeed, make a very material change in the section, and because he found this would be the case, he must vote against it.

Mr. GALLATIN said, it appeared to him that this amendment goes no further than to prevent any stipulations with persons who have usurped the power of a country. It was yesterday stated by the gentleman from Massachusetts, and repeated to-day by the gentleman from North Carolina, that it did not extend to cases where men's commissions are doubtful. If a man has once held a commission as an agent in any French colony, he may be recognized as their agent, so long as he has not been publicly declared to be otherwise. His exercising the power will be sufficient proof that he has it; and, unless this principle is admitted, it must be evident that the bill is intended to operate in favor of revolters.

There is a great difference, said Mr. G., between this amendment and the one which had been moved by the gentleman from Virginia, the gentleman from New York, or that which he had himself moved. It was the opinion of the gentleman from Virginia, and it was his also, that the PRESIDENT ought not to be authorized to open a trade with St. Domingo, unless the constituted authorities of France had disavowed their former aggressions, and refrained from them; they did not think it right to permit a trade with particular parts of the possessions of France, considering that the measure was originally taken to distress the French Government, and bring it to terms; but this section gives the power of opening a partial intercourse with St. Domingo, though the Government of France should not disavow any of her former illegal acts; and the present amendment only proposes to except cases of insurgency. Nor could he see what possible objection can be made to it, except that it will prevent a lure from being held out to promote the independence of St. Domingo; for in nothing else does the amendment differ from the bill as it now stands.

If we are to hold out this lure, said Mr. G., it must be because we have the right, and it is our interest to do it. When he asserted we have not the right to do it, he would remark upon the word "right." Gentlemen say we have a right to do this, because we are an independent nation. No doubt. But when he said we have not a right to do it, he meant that we could not do it without infracting the law of nations, or those rules which we have declared ought to govern every nation. And though the gentleman from Connecticut has said that there is no connection of a political nature between us and France, and therefore considers this as merely a commercial regulation, Mr. G. said, he has mistaken his meaning, by making use of the word "connection" instead of _relation_. We have no connection, either commercial or political, with France; but we stand, as a nation, in a political and commercial relation with France and other nations. There is no connection between us, but there is the same relation, both political and commercial, that there is between all other nations. And, said Mr. G., it is, doubtless, an infraction on the law of nations to offer any lure, or promote the independence of a colony. We certainly have a right to give assistance, in case of a rebellion, by running the risk of becoming a party in the war, but not without infracting the law of nations; still less could we do it without breaking that morality in politics, the breach of which we have so often complained of. We may suppose the Government of France radically wrong, and the people exercising it corrupt, but neither would justify the overturning, or holding out any encouragement to others to overturn, the Government of any part of her dependencies. A conduct of this kind could only be justified in time of war.

In this country, in our speeches, at least, we have gone further, and said that, even in case of war, it would not be right to sow the seeds of insurrection; for, on what other grounds could we account for the philippics which have been pronounced on this floor against France, for her conduct not only against countries with whom she was at peace, but also against those with whom she was at war. This was the case with respect to all the charges made against France with respect to Holland, or the Milanese (now Cisalpine Republic) with whom she was at war when the attempts condemned were made. But we have said, war is at best an unfortunate state, and it is not right to heighten its evils by exciting insurrections and commotions. If this principle is right, and Mr. G. believed it correct in most cases, it is clear that we shall not be justified in promoting insurrections, even in war, much less in this state which is a state of hostility, but not of war.

Notwithstanding the respect which he paid to the opinion of the gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. PINCKNEY) he could not be persuaded that the independence of St. Domingo could be a desirable object. To-day, it had been avowed, in what fell from his colleague, (Mr. HARTLEY,) that this was the ground upon which the clause was founded, all the French force being withdrawn. He gave credit to the candor of his colleague for the declaration, and it was in this point of view which he had always considered it, because he had stated that, no doubt, an agent from that quarter had come with propositions to our government.

Mr. G. repeated some of his former reasons against the policy of promoting the independence of St. Domingo. He heard the gentleman from Rhode Island, with regret, repeat one of those illiberal ideas that had been so frequently introduced here, by saying that gentlemen seemed opposed to this measure, because it would be injurious to France.

Mr. PINCKNEY wished to make a single observation upon what fell from the gentleman from Pennsylvania. In order to defeat all that has been said about this section holding out a lure for the establishment of the independence of St. Domingo, it need only be said, that it is confined to the colonies which are under the jurisdiction of France. The language of this clause is, "so long as you continue dependent, we will treat with you."

Mr. NICHOLAS explained.

Mr. SPRAGUE observed that the gentleman from Pennsylvania insisted upon it, that, without this amendment, this bill would hold out a lure to insurrections in St. Domingo, and that if gentlemen did not wish to encourage these, they must agree to the amendment. What is this encouragement? It is, "if you will forbear committing depredations, which we have heretofore experienced from you, we will open our trade with you." Then, according to the gentleman's reasoning, acts of hostility against the commerce of this country, are favorable to France; or rather, ceasing to commit them is an act of rebellion against the mother country; and, to hold out a lure on our part, to stop these depredations, is so contrary to the views of France, as to give a high offence to that country.

Mr. MCDOWELL remarked, that gentlemen opposed to this amendment, all agree that the section, as it stands, holds out no lure to insurrection in the French West India islands; if not, why should they object to this amendment, which is only calculated to make certain what is at present doubtful to some members. He wished gentlemen to consider what might be the consequence of authorizing the PRESIDENT to treat with unauthorized persons. Gentlemen have stated, and he supposed truly, that the trade of this island of St. Domingo is a gold mine to the merchants of this country; and he was afraid that the richness of this trade had too much attraction to be resisted by those concerned in it, though it might be dearly purchased by the nation at large. He differed widely in opinion from the gentleman from South Carolina, with respect to the effect which the independence of that island would have upon this country; he believed it was by no means a desirable event to this country.

Mr. J. WILLIAMS did not intend to have said any thing on this subject, as it is principally a commercial concern, of which he knew but little; but he also conceived that the agricultural interest is connected with it. Gentlemen are afraid more is meant by this bill than meets the eye; they are afraid to take a worm or a fly, lest a hook should be concealed in them. Instead of war, he thought this bill calculated to promote peace. It is admitted, on all hands, said Mr. W., that Hispaniola cannot support itself. How must they, then, get support? Either we must supply them, or they must depend upon neutral islands, or the people must bend their whole force upon our commerce. What, said he, is most prudent to do? He thought the regulation proposed by this bill the best that could be hit upon. But the gentleman from Virginia said we are obliged to send our tobacco through Spain to France; is this, said he, an advantage to the people of this country? It may be presumed, Mr. W. said, that the President will go no further in this business than the interest of the country requires. This jealousy of the PRESIDENT has a bad effect; because from a want of confidence in this officer, he will be unable to do any thing for us. He hoped the amendment would not be agreed to.

It was negatived--49 to 41.

MONDAY, January 28.

_Intercourse with France._

The bill further suspending our commercial intercourse with France and her dependencies, and for other purposes, having been read the third time,

Mr. ALLEN moved for a recommitment of the bill in order to have expunged a proviso introduced by the member from Tennessee, excluding the port of New Orleans from its operation. He stated his reason to be, that he did not believe that was likely to be a rendezvous for French privateers; but that, if it should be, it ought to be liable to the same restrictions with other ports; and, if it was not likely to become a harbor of privateers, to insert a proviso of this kind, was to show a distrust that the PRESIDENT would not exercise the power given to him for the interest of the United States.

This motion was seconded by Mr. OTIS, and opposed by Messrs. VENABLE, NICHOLAS, S. SMITH, W. CLAIBORNE, and HARPER. It was negatived, the yeas and nays being taken--74 to 18.

The question on the passing of the bill was then taken, and stood, yeas 55, nays 37, as follows:

YEAS.--John Allen, George Baer, jun., Bailey Bartlett,
James A. Bayard, Jonathan Brace, David Brooks, Stephen
Bullock, Christopher G. Champlin, John Chapman, James
Cochran, William Craik, John Dennis, George Dent, William
Edmond, Thomas Evans, Abiel Foster, Dwight Foster, Jonathan
Freeman, Nathaniel Freeman, jun., Henry Glenn, Chauncey
Goodrich, Roger Griswold, William Barry Grove, Robert
Goodloe Harper, Thomas Hartley, William Hindman, Hezekiah
L. Hosmer, James H. Imlay, John Wilkes Kittera, Samuel
Lyman, James Machir, William Matthews, Daniel Morgan,
Harrison G. Otis, Isaac Parker, Josiah Parker, Thomas
Pinckney, John Reed, John Rutledge, jun., James Schureman,
Samuel Sewall, William Shepard, Thomas Sinnickson, Samuel
Smith, Richard Dobbs Spaight, Peleg Sprague, George
Thatcher, Mark Thompson, Thomas Tillinghast, John E. Van
Allen, Peleg Wadsworth, Robert Waln, John Williams, and
Robert Williams.

NAYS.--Abraham Baldwin, David Bard, Thos. Blount, Richard
Brent, Robert Brown, Samuel J. Cabell, Thomas Claiborne,
William C. C. Claiborne, Matthew Clay, John Clopton, Thomas
T. Davis, John Dawson, Joseph Eggleston, Lucas Elmendorph,
William Findlay, Albert Gallatin, James Gillespie, Andrew
Gregg, John A. Hanna, Carter B. Harrison, Jonathan N.
Havens, Joseph Heister, David Holmes, Walter Jones, Edward
Livingston, Matthew Locke, Nathaniel Macon, Anthony New,
John Nicholas, Thompson J. Skinner, William Smith, Richard
Sprigg, Abram Trigg, John Trigg, Philip Van Cortlandt,
Joseph B. Varnum, and Abraham Venable.

_French Affairs._

The following Message was received from the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

_Gentlemen of the Senate, and Gentlemen of the House of
Representatives:_

An edict of the Executive Directory of the French Republic
of the twenty-ninth of October, 1798, inclosed in a letter
from our Minister Plenipotentiary in London, of the
sixteenth of November, is of so much importance that it
cannot be too soon communicated to you and to the public.

JOHN ADAMS.

_January 28, 1799._

_Extract of a letter from Rufus King, Esq., Minister
Plenipotentiary of the United States at London, to the
Secretary of State, dated November 16, 1798._

"The annexed arrêt would appear extravagant and incredible,
if it proceeded from any other authority; but mankind is so
accustomed to the violence and injustice of France, that we
almost cease to express our surprise and indignation at the
new instances that she continues to display."

[TRANSLATION.]

_Decree of the Executive Directory, of October 29, 1798._

The Executive Directory, upon the report of the Minister of
Foreign Relations, considering that the fleets, privateers,
and ships, of England and Russia, are in part equipped by
foreigners.

Considering that this violation is a manifest abuse of the
rights of nations, and that the powers of Europe have not
taken any measures to prohibit it. Decrees:

1st. Every individual, native (_ou originaire_) of friendly
countries, allied to the French Republic, or neutral,
bearing a commission, granted by the enemies of France, or
making part of the crews of ships of war, and others,
enemies, shall be by this single fact declared a pirate,
and treated as such, without being permitted in any case to
allege that he had been forced into such service by
violence, threats, or otherwise.

2d. The Executive Directories of the Batavian, Lagurian,
Cisalpine, and Roman Republics, shall be instructed to this
effect.

3d. The provisions contained in the first article shall be
notified to those powers which are neutral or allied to the
French Republic.

4th. The Ministers of Exterior Relations is charged with
the execution of the present arrêt which shall be printed
in the Bulletin of the Laws.

(Signed)
TERILHARD, _President_.

The message and documents were read, and ordered to lie on the table.

TUESDAY, January 29.

THOMAS SUMTER, from South Carolina, appeared and took his seat in the House.

FRIDAY, February 1.

JOHN FOWLER, from Kentucky, appeared and took his seat in the House.

_Remonstrance of Georgia._

On motion of Mr. BALDWIN, the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the report of a select committee on the petition and remonstrance of the Legislature of Georgia; and the resolution reported by that committee being under consideration, its adoption was opposed principally by Mr. ALLEN.

Mr. NICHOLAS thought the following resolution would be less exceptionable than the one reported, and it was agreed to--55 votes being in its favor.

"_Resolved_, That provision ought to be made by law for
complying with such treaty as the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED
STATES may think proper to make with the Creek Indians, and
for obtaining possession, in behalf of the State of
Georgia, of the lands lying within the country of
Tallassee, or other lands on the frontier of the said
State, which may be deemed equivalent thereto, and that
---- dollars be appropriated therefor."

The committee rose, and after some further remarks from Mr. ALLEN, the resolution was concurred in--59 votes being in its favor. It was then referred to the select committee to report a bill.

The House adjourned to Monday.

THURSDAY, February 7.

_Augmentation of the Navy._

On motion of Mr. JOSIAH PARKER, the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the bill for the augmentation of the Navy, and fixing the pay of the captains of ships or vessels of war; when the first section being under consideration--

Mr. GALLATIN moved to strike out the words "six ships of war, of a size to carry, and which shall be armed with not less than seventy-four guns each; and these shall be built or purchased within the United States;" in order to take the sense of the committee on the propriety of building, at present, ships-of-the-line. When this subject was last year before the House, the general opinion was, that during the present war, considering the crippled state of the French navy, frigates and vessels of a smaller size, were sufficient to protect our vessels on our own coast, and in the West India seas; nor did that opinion seem to have undergone any material alteration; for, although the Secretary of the Navy, and the select committee, had reported that the expense of building the six seventy-four gun ships now proposed, would amount to $2,400,000, yet the appropriation asked for the present year was only one million of dollars. It was not expected that much more than one-third of the work necessary to send those ships to sea, could be executed during the present year. It was not expected that they could be finished in less than two or three years. They were not wanted for any immediate purpose. The proposed measure was not therefore a measure of defence. It was a project of a general nature. The question is, whether it be proper, at the present time, to lay the foundation of a navy, of a fleet, that might be able, hereafter, to give us a certain weight in relation to European nations; which might be able to cope with the fleets of those nations: and it was in order to bring that question fairly before the Committee of the Whole that he had made his motion. Should that motion prevail, it would not affect the building of the six sloops of war which were said to be immediately wanted, in addition to our present naval force, for the purpose of protecting our commerce. It would merely prevent the building, at present, of a fleet which was supposed, by the friends of the bill, to be wanted only for future purposes.

This led him naturally to consider the expense of that navy. It is stated by the Secretary of the Navy, that the annual expense of a 74-gun ship will exceed 216,000 dollars, and that therefore the annual expense of six of these ships will be about 1,300,000 dollars. That the building and equipping a 74-gun ship, exclusive of military stores, will be 342,700 dollars; and that the military stores will cost 48,000 dollars; so that the first building and equipping six of these vessels will cost about 2,400,000 dollars. This is the first expense, but nothing is said of the yearly repairing and building which will be necessary to keep up a fleet of this kind. It is estimated, in the navies of Europe, that a ship-of-the-line will last from 12 to 15 years; so that, besides ordinary repairs, the whole expense of building would have to be renewed every 12 or 15 years.[43] It would have been desirable, and it might have been expected, that the select committee should have laid before the House an estimate of the peace establishment of a navy to the extent proposed, in order to have enabled the House to have formed a just opinion on the main question. This they have not done; but supposing the other estimates to be perfectly correct; supposing that the expense would not overrun the calculations laid before the House, and, if so, it would be the first time it had not done it; supposing, according to those calculations, that a 74-gun ship will hereafter cost us less than two-thirds of what 44-gun frigates have heretofore cost us; it results, that the first necessary expense (including $150,000 for docks and timber) will exceed, for six ships only, two millions and a half of dollars; and that the annual expense of supporting them, when in commission, exclusively of annual repairs, and of building new ships, necessary to supply those that from time to time will become unfit for service, will amount to 1,300,000 dollars.

If these premises are true, and he knew they could not be contradicted, the conclusion must be most forcible that it is improper at present to build a navy, especially since there is no immediate demand for it. But if once the foundation of a large navy is laid, no one can say where it will stop. The Secretary of the Navy does not suppose that six 74-gun ships will be sufficient. He supposes twelve necessary; six are now proposed merely as an entering wedge. And when once twelve ships-of-the-line are obtained, if our commerce and coast, extensive as they are, must be effectually protected, these will not be deemed sufficient. He drew this conclusion from the naval force of European nations. Our tonnage exceeds that of any European nation, except Great Britain and Holland; and if we must have a navy to protect our commerce, it must bear some proportion to the extent of our coast, to the amount of our tonnage, and to the navies of the European nations. And upon what terms are we to cope with the powers of Europe with respect to any navy? It would be recollected that when last year there was a mutiny on board the British fleet, in order to put an end to it, the sailors' wages were advanced to one shilling sterling per day, equal to thirty shillings sterling, or six dollars and two-thirds per month, whilst we give our seamen seventeen dollars a month, so that we pay nearly three times as much for men to supply our navy, as England does.

Mr. G said, he would not detain the committee longer at present, though he meant to have made some observations with respect to the expense of navies to those nations who support them in order to show that the expense of them far exceeds the benefits derived from them. If reference were had to European nations, it would be found, Mr. G. said, that navies were used more as engines of power, than as a protection to commerce. Even with respect to Great Britain, which is the only nation which has succeeded in effecting any material object by a navy, though she has obtained a preponderancy at sea, and has been mistress of it for the last hundred years, yet it has been the means of involving her in almost continual war, and the support of it has always been attended with enormous expense. He believed he was correct, when he stated that from 1776 to 1789, the average expense of the navy of Great Britain (including a period of seven years of war and six of peace) was six millions of pounds sterling a year. Now, said Mr. G., if we calculate the rate at which we shall be obliged to pay for every thing appertaining to a navy, what will be the sum necessary to support a navy of any extent here? Suppose a navy should only be one-tenth part of the British, and instead of 120 ships-of-the-line, we should be content with twelve. The expense, according to the British rate of expenditure, would be £600,000 sterling, nearly three millions of dollars a year; but when we know that we pay three times as much for our seamen as they do, it is impossible precisely to calculate what the expense would be.

In relation to European nations, it would be found, that none had ever derived any advantage from a navy, except Great Britain. It has been said (and by high authority) that an extensive commerce cannot be maintained without a navy. In answer to this it may be said, that Spain has always had a considerable navy, but very little commerce; their tonnage compared with ours was insignificant, yet theirs is the third navy in Europe. Holland, for a time, had a powerful navy; but they gave it up, as more expensive than beneficial, since the wars of Queen Anne. Yet their commerce, on this account, never diminished in any considerable degree. They are the second commercial nation in Europe; and they never suffer for want of a navy, except when they become a party in war; he conceived, therefore, that a navy is not necessary to protect commerce. At this time, Mr. G. knew that the commerce of Holland was in a great degree annihilated; but so was that of France and Spain, notwithstanding their powerful navies. Holland being at the door of Great Britain, may, in time of war, be altogether blocked up by the fleets of that nation. Fortunately that was not our situation.

Mr. G. concluded by saying, that as he believed commerce might exist independently of a navy; that a navy would cost far more than it would ever benefit the country; and knowing our finances were not such as to admit of the expense, he must hope his motion would prevail.

FRIDAY, February 8.

_Augmentation of the Navy._

The House then went into Committee of the Whole on the bill for augmenting the Navy, Mr. GALLATIN'S motion for striking out what relates to 74-gun ships being under consideration.

Mr. JOSIAH PARKER hoped this amendment would not be agreed to. He was happy to find, however, that the gentleman from Pennsylvania did not go farther, and oppose the whole force, as he had heretofore always opposed every thing like a navy. Indeed, he has acknowledged that our infant navy has done some service, though he does not give to it all the credit which the committee who reported this bill thinks it deserves. He attributes the fall in insurance to other objects than the navy, because he says it has fallen more on vessels to Europe, where our navy could have had no effect, than to the West Indies, where that effect was more likely to be produced. But the gentleman should have recollected that the fall to Europe may have been occasioned by the vigilance of the British navy; but in the West Indies, the British, or at least the officers of the British men of war, seemed rather to countenance, than prevent, the depredations of the French; as, in many instances, they have suffered captures to be made by the French, and immediately afterwards recaptured the vessels, and by that means obtained a salvage upon them. Nor did he suppose the British Government would regret these depredations, since they knew such treatment would serve to rouse the resentment of this country against her enemy. Mr. P. supposed that the saving produced by our navy had even been greater than the committee had supposed, as, by the report made yesterday on the subject of our exports, it appears they have been ten millions more than the committee calculated them at. He allowed that our navy had not been the sole cause of safety to our commerce; the British navy had also contributed greatly to it. But it would be recollected that when this navy was first fitted out, French privateers and picaroons were not only upon our coast, but in our very bays; and, but for these measures, there can be no doubt, but our shores would at this time have swarmed with French privateers, which the British would have suffered, in order to widen the breach between the two countries.

Mr. P. hoped when the quantity of shipping, and the number of seamen we employ, is considered--that these are the means of bringing us from foreign countries all that we desire to have from thence, and that they thereby fill our treasury with money--gentlemen will not hesitate to allow our commerce a competent protection. No nation, except Great Britain, exceeds this country in the number of vessels and men engaged in this service, yet no nation has done so little to protect them. He trusted we should be allowed to have a sufficient navy to protect our commerce and coast, and to cause us to be respected abroad.

The British Government, Mr. P. said, has 141 sail-of-the-line, (according to Steele's list, which he had lately seen,) and these, according to the opinion of the first statesman and politician that England ever possessed, Lord Chatham, require as many thousand seamen; not that each vessel requires 1000 men, but it is necessary to have this number in order to employ their frigates and sloops of war, not that the ships of the line require 1000 men; yet, though Britain has this immense navy, she has not double the number of merchant vessels and seamen which this country possesses. If, said Mr. P., these six 74-gun ships and six sloops are agreed to, we shall not want more than 12,000 seamen to man our navy. At present we have only 4,000; and the whole annual expense will be 4,230,149 dollars. Mr. P. believed, in order to give us efficient protection, we ought to have eleven sail-of-the-line; but as he considered six to be as many as our present finances will allow, he should be satisfied with that number.

The gentleman from Pennsylvania wished to be informed as to the expense of a peace establishment of our navy. A large navy in time of peace would be unnecessary; he should wish it, however, to be kept on a respectable footing. Many of our ships, Mr. P. said, will last much longer than the gentleman from Pennsylvania had supposed; some of them, he doubted not, would last forty or fifty years. The British have ships which have been in service thirty years; when poorly built they may not last more than seven years. He had not made an estimate of what would be the expense of a peace establishment with respect to the navy; nor did he know what force the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES might think it necessary to maintain in time of peace, but he supposed it would be small, and a single officer and thirty men would be sufficient to take care of a ship where she is laid up in ordinary: that only a few of the best ships would be kept, and the others sold.

The gentleman from Pennsylvania had represented the expense of a navy in this country as being much greater than in England; but when he spoke of the pay of British sailors being only one shilling sterling a day, he was certainly mistaken. They have at least a guinea and an half a month, which is seven dollars; and ours average fourteen dollars, which is double to that of England. If the same means were taken here that are taken in England, of raising men by means of press-gangs (which, however, he rejoiced never could be suffered in this country,) they might, perhaps, be gotten on easier terms, as the Government might follow the example of Great Britain, by fixing the pay and pressing the men. He would much rather pay higher wages; especially when it is considered that a very small part of the money paid to seamen will ever go out of the country; they spend their money freely, and the United States will not, therefore, lose it.

And as to the number of men employed in the navy, if they were not thus employed in our own service, they would go abroad, since this is the employment they choose; indeed, if all our citizens were employed in cultivating the ground, our produce would be so great, and sell for so little, as to make it scarcely worth the trouble of raising. And if we do not provide for our own defence, we shall be at the mercy of every foreign power which chooses to insult or ill-treat us. The interests of commerce and agriculture must always go hand in hand; and farmers who now get so much better a price for their product than they heretofore got, ought to be the first in supporting a navy sufficient to protect our vessels in carrying that produce to foreign countries. When they see their interests more clearly, Mr. P. trusted they would, like the gentleman from Pennsylvania, be ready to allow that our navy is of service. It would be happy for us, and for the world, Mr. P. said, if there were no use for navies, and nations might be permitted to carry their productions wherever they pleased without annoyance; but, while nations continue to make war upon each other, we must expect to come in for our share of the evils of such a system, and it will be necessary to have some force not only to guard against injuries, but to keep foreign belligerent nations in check, lest we should throw our force into the scale against them. The French Directory, said Mr. P., have lately passed a decree, which ought to be considered as a declaration of war against the world, "that the citizens of neutral countries found on board of any of their ships shall be considered and punished as _pirates_!" Where is the man, exclaimed he, who will not defend his country and his fellow-citizens against such a decree?

Mr. P. said he would take the liberty of quoting the authority, on the subject of a navy, of a gentleman who deservedly ranked high in public estimation, and whom he was proud to call his countryman. The authority he referred to was Mr. Jefferson's Notes on Virginia. He read the following extract.