Chapter X: Part 10

Mr. SPECTER. And what then was done with the stretcher that he was on?

Mr. JIMISON. Well, the stretcher at that time was moved back from the table, of course, because they had to make room for the doctors to get up close to the table, which was back just a'ways and when I got free--whether it was Miss Wester or Mrs. Ross there--they pushed it back a little further, but they didn't get quite to the elevator with it; I came along and pushed it onto the elevator myself and loaded it on and pushed the door closed.

Mr. SPECTER. What was on the stretcher at that time?

Mr. JIMISON. I noticed nothing more than a little flat mattress and two sheets as usual.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the position of the sheets?

Mr. JIMISON. Of course, them sheets was, of course, as usual, flat out on the bed.

Mr. SPECTER. Had they been rolled up?

Mr. JIMISON. More or less, not rolled, which, yes, usually they is, the mattress and sheets are all just throwed, one of them about halfway, it would be just throwed about halfway.

Mr. SPECTER. Were the sheets flat or just turned over?

Mr. JIMISON. Well, just turned over.

Mr. SPECTER. Were they crumpled up in any way?

Mr. JIMISON. Well, there was a possibility it was strictly--a tragic day.

Mr. SPECTER. It was what?

Mr. JIMISON. It was a tragic day.

Mr. SPECTER. Right, and everybody was a little shook up on account of it?

Mr. JIMISON. We didn't look too close.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything else on the stretcher?

Mr. JIMISON. I never noticed anything else at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Could there have been some empty packets of hypodermic needles or an alcohol sponge?

Mr. JIMISON. There could have been.

Mr. SPECTER. Or a 1-inch roll of tape?

Mr. JIMISON. There could have been something--small stuff, but nothing large like bundles or anything like that.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do with the stretcher then, you said?

Mr. JIMISON. Pushed it on the rear elevator, which goes downstairs.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other elevator which goes downstairs to the emergency area?

Mr. JIMISON. Not close in the emergency area--that's the only one.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose for your putting it on that elevator?

Mr. JIMISON. It goes back to emergency because it can be cleaned up there and remade and put in use again.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it customarily your job to put it back on the elevator?

Mr. JIMISON. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever take it down and put it in order yourself?

Mr. JIMISON. No, sir; we never carry it down ourselves. The fact is--the purpose is--we have enough to do up there, and we have men up there to take care of that.

Mr. SPECTER. Somebody else is supposed to take the elevator up there? Is that right?

Mr. JIMISON. One of them--we put it on the elevator, then it becomes the responsibility of the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other stretcher placed on that elevator later that day?

Mr. JIMISON. Not during my shift.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you the only man who would put the stretcher on the elevator if there were one?

Mr. JIMISON. No, I is not, but might near--I could might near see of anybody--from where the elevator sits from where the halls were--I could might near see all of the stretchers put on there.

Mr. SPECTER. If a stretcher was put on there it would have to be in your presence?

Mr. JIMISON. I would have had to be hid where I wouldn't be able to see it.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you put the stretcher from Governor Connally on the elevator?

Mr. JIMISON. I'm not too sure I know of the time. I really don't know exactly the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, about how long after he was taken into the operating room, did you?

Mr. JIMISON. It was lesser than 10 minutes before or after.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you get off that day?

Mr. JIMISON. 3:30.

Mr. SPECTER. And you say there was no other stretcher placed on that elevator from the time you put Governor Connally's stretcher on until the end of the day?

Mr. JIMISON. Until the end of my shift. You see, that's the emergency--from the emergency that we had from that time that he was brought up until I was relieved from duty that afternoon.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any bullets on the stretcher?

Mr. JIMISON. I never noticed any at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Did I sit down and talk with you for a few minutes before the court reporter came in to take this all down here today?

Mr. JIMISON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And have I asked you questions and have you given me answers just like in our short discussion before this deposition started?

Mr. JIMISON. (No response.)

Mr. SPECTER. Did you and I talk about the same things we have been talking about since the court reporter came in?

Mr. JIMISON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been talked to by any other person from the Federal Government?

Mr. JIMISON. Yes, I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was that?

Mr. JIMISON. I don't remember his name, but shortly after that happened--I don't know, as I say, it was the Federal Government.

Mr. SPECTER. What branch was he from?

Mr. JIMISON. I thought he was from the Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. How many times did you talk to somebody from the Secret Service?

Mr. JIMISON. Well, I talked to him once; he just talked to me once.

Mr. SPECTER. And what about?

Mr. JIMISON. The same thing.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you ever talk to anybody else about this fact?

Mr. JIMISON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, that you think might be helpful to us?

Mr. JIMISON. Well, no, because the fact is--because that's pretty well covered--just, I actually want to give facts about something I know something about, and during the time I know something about, and what actually happened from the time I got off--I couldn't tell you, but I do know there wasn't no carriage from the time that carriage was picked up until I got off from duty.

This ain't actually--not in it, but due to this--this is--what I'm fixing to say is off of the book--I couldn't see after President Kennedy because I didn't--I never did get up to the floor--so I didn't see him. I am glad if was any kind of help, Mr. Specter.

Mr. SPECTER. You have been, Mr. Jimison, and we appreciate your coming in and helping us a lot.

Mr. JIMISON. Same back to you.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DARRELL C. TOMLINSON

The testimony of Darrell C. Tomlinson was taken on March 20, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tomlinson, this is Miss Oliver, and she is the court reporter. Will you stand up and hold up your right hand and take the oath, please?

Do you solemnly swear that in the taking of your deposition in these proceedings, you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name, for the record?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Darrell Carlisle Tomlinson.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tomlinson, the purpose of this deposition proceeding is to take your deposition in connection with an inquiry made by the President's Commission in connection with the Assassination of President Kennedy to determine from you all the facts, if any, which you know concerning the events surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and any treatment which was given at Parkland Memorial Hospital to either President Kennedy or Governor Connally, or anything that happened to any physical objects connected with either one of those men.

First of all, did you receive a letter advising you that the Commission was interested in having one of its staff lawyers take your deposition concerning this matter?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And did that letter include in it a copy of the Executive order creating the Commission?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And a copy of the congressional resolution concerning the creation of the President's Commission?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And a copy of the resolution governing questioning of witnesses by members of the Commission's staff?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing today for me to ask you some questions about what you observed or know about this matter?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And it is satisfactory with you to proceed today rather than to have 3 days from the time you got the letter, which was yesterday?

Mr. TOMLINSON. It's immaterial.

Mr. SPECTER. It's immaterial to you?

Mr. TOMLINSON. It's immaterial--it's at your convenience.

Mr. SPECTER. That's fine. We appreciate that, Mr. Tomlinson.

The reason is, that you have the right to a 3-day notice, but if it doesn't matter to you, then we would like to go ahead and take your information today.

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. We call that a waiver under the law, if it is all right with you for us to talk with you today, then I want to go ahead and do that; is that all right?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, where are you employed, Mr. Tomlinson?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your capacity?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I am classed as the senior engineer.

Mr. SPECTER. And what duties are involved in general?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I'm in charge of the powerplant here at the hospital, which takes care of the heating and air-conditioning services for the building.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the general physical layout relating to the emergency area and how you get from the emergency area, say, to the second floor emergency operating rooms of Parkland Memorial Hospital?

Mr. TOMLINSON. You mean just the general lay?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; please.

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, we have one elevator that goes from the basement to the third floor, that's what we call the emergency elevator. It's in the south section of the hospital and that would be your most direct route to go from the ground floor, which emergency is on, to the operating rooms on two.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have anything to do with that elevator on November 22, sometime around the noon hour?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you have to do with that elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, we received a call in the engineer's office, the chief engineer's office, and he requested someone to operate the elevator.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any problem with the elevator with respect to a mechanical difficulty of any sort?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir; it was an ordinary type elevator, and if it isn't keyed off it will stop every time somebody pushes a button, and they preferred it to go only to the second floor and to the ground floor unless otherwise instructed by the administrator.

Mr. SPECTER. So, what were you to do with this elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Key it off the ground, between ground and second floor.

Mr. SPECTER. So that you would operate it in that way?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; make a manual operation out of it.

Mr. SPECTER. When you came upon that elevator, what time was it, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. TOMLINSON. It was around 1 o'clock.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything on the elevator at that time?

Mr. TOMLINSON. There was one stretcher.

Mr. SPECTER. And describe the appearance of that stretcher, if you will, please.

Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that stretcher had sheets on it and had a white covering on the pad.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you say about the covering on the pad, excuse me?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe it was a white sheet that was on the pad.

Mr. SPECTER. And was there anything else on that?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I don't believe there was on that one, I'm not sure, but I don't believe there was.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you do with that stretcher?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I took it off of the elevator and put it over against the south wall.

Mr. SPECTER. On what floor?

Mr. TOMLINSON. The ground floor.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other stretcher in that area at that time?

Mr. TOMLINSON. There was a stretcher about 2 feet from the wall already there.

(Indicating on drawing to which the witness referred.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have just pointed to a drawing which you have made of this situation, have you not, while we were talking a few minutes before the court reporter started to take down your testimony?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you mark in ink with my pen the stretcher which you pushed off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I think that it was this one right here (indicating).

Mr. SPECTER. Will you draw the outline of it in ink and mark an "A" right in the center of that?

(Witness complied with request of Counsel Specter.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you mark in ink the position of the stretcher which was already on the first floor?

Mr. TOMLINSON. This was the ground floor.

Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me, on the ground floor? Is there a different designation for the first floor?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where is the first floor?

Mr. TOMLINSON. One above the ground. We have basement, ground, first, second, and third on that elevator.

Mr. SPECTER. What floor was Governor Connally taken to, if you know?

Mr. TOMLINSON. He was on two, he was in the operating rooms up on two. That's our surgical suites up there.

Mr. SPECTER. And what level is the emergency entrance of the hospital on?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, it's the ground floor--it's there at the back of the hospital, you see, it's built on the incline there.

Mr. SPECTER. And the elevator which you found in this area was on the ground floor?

Mr. TOMLINSON. The elevator?

Mr. SPECTER. The stretcher.

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark with a "B" the stretcher which was present at the time you pushed stretcher "A" off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. (Witness complied with the request of Counsel Specter.) I believe that's it.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what, if anything, did you later observe as to stretcher "B"?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, sir; I don't recall how long it had been exactly, but an intern or doctor, I didn't know which, came to use the men's room there in the elevator lobby.

Mr. SPECTER. Where is the men's room located on this diagram?

Mr. TOMLINSON. It would be right there (indicating) beside the "B" stretcher.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw in ink there the outline of that room in a general way?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, I really don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you mark that with the letter "C"?

(Witness complied with request of Counsel Specter.)

Mr. SPECTER. That's fine. What happened when that gentleman came to use the men's room?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, he pushed the stretcher out from the wall to get in, and then when he came out he just walked off and didn't push the stretcher back up against the wall, so I pushed it out of the way where we would have clear area in front of the elevator.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you push it to?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I pushed it back up against the wall.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, happened then?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I bumped the wall and a spent cartridge or bullet rolled out that apparently had been lodged under the edge of the mat.

Mr. SPECTER. And that was from which stretcher?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that it was "B".

Mr. SPECTER. And what was on "B", if you recall; if anything?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, at one end they had one or two sheets rolled up; I didn't examine them. They were bloody. They were rolled up on the east end of it and there were a few surgical instruments on the opposite end and a sterile pack or so.

Mr. SPECTER. A sterile what?

Mr. TOMLINSON. A sterile pack.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by that?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Like gauze or something like that.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there an alcohol sponge?

Mr. TOMLINSON. There could have been.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there a roll of 1-inch tape?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No; I don't think so.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any empty packets from hypodermic needles?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, now, it had some paper there but I don't know what they came from.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, Mr. Tomlinson, are you sure that it was stretcher "A" that you took out of the elevator and not stretcher "B"?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, really, I can't be positive, just to be perfectly honest about it, I can't be positive, because I really didn't pay that much attention to it. The stretcher was on the elevator and I pushed it off of there and I believe we made one or two calls up before I straightened out the stretcher up against the wall.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "one or two calls," what do you mean by that?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Went to pick up the technician from the second floor to bring him down to the ground floor to get blood.

Mr. SPECTER. And when you say before you straightened the stretcher up, what do you mean by that?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, we just rolled them out of the way where we had some room on the elevator--that's a small elevator.

Mr. SPECTER. So, when you rolled them out of the elevator, when you rolled the stretcher out of the elevator, did you place it against the wall at that time?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Were both of these stretchers constructed in the same way?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Similar--yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the appearance of the stretcher with reference to what it was made of and how many shelves it had, and that sort of thing?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, it's made of tubed steel with a flat iron frame on the top where you lay the patient and it has one shelf down between the four wheels.

Mr. SPECTER. Does it have any bumpers on it?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, and it has rubber bumpers.

Mr. SPECTER. Does it have any rail to keep the patient on?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; they have the rails on the side made of tubed steel. The majority of them have those.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, just before we started this deposition, before I placed you under oath and before the court reporter started to take down my questions and your answers, you and I had a brief talk, did we not?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And we discussed in a general way the information which you have testified about, did we not?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And at the time we started our discussion, it was your recollection at that point that the bullet came off of stretcher A, was it not?

Mr. TOMLINSON. B.

Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me, stretcher B, but it was stretcher A that you took off of the elevator.

Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that's right.

Mr. SPECTER. But there is no question but that at the time we started our discussion a few minutes before the court reporter started to take it down, that your best recollection was that it was stretcher A which came off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, I believe that was it--yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed about this matter by any other Federal representative?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Who interviewed you about it?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I don't remember the name of either one of them, but one was the FBI man and one was the Secret Service man.

Mr. SPECTER. How many times did the FBI interview you?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Once.

Mr. SPECTER. How many times did the Secret Service interview you?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Once.

Mr. SPECTER. When did the FBI interview you?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe they were the first to do it.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately when was that?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I think that was the latter part of November.

Mr. SPECTER. And when did the Secret Service interview you?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Approximately a week later, the first part of December.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you recollect what the FBI man asked you about?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Just about where I found the bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he ask you about these stretchers?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, he asked me about the stretchers, yes, just about the same thing we've gone over here.

Mr. SPECTER. What did the Secret Service man ask you about?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Approximately the same thing, only, we've gone into more detail here.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell the Secret Service man about which stretcher you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I told him that I was not sure, and I am not--I'm not sure of it, but as I said, I would be going against the oath which I took a while ago, because I am definitely not sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you remember if you told the Secret Service man which stretcher you thought you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, we talked about taking a stretcher off of the elevator, but then when it comes down on an oath, I wouldn't say for sure, I really don't remember.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you recollect whether or not you told the Secret Service man which stretcher you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. What do you mean?

Mr. SPECTER. You say you can't really take an oath today to be sure whether it was stretcher A or stretcher B that you took off the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, today or any other day, I'm just not sure of it, whether it was A or B that I took off.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, has your recollection always been the same about the situation, that is, today, and when you talked to the Secret Service man and when you talked to the FBI man?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; I told him that I wasn't sure.

Mr. SPECTER. So, what you told the Secret Service man was just about the same thing as you have told me today?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When I first started to ask you about this, Mr. Tomlinson, you initially identified stretcher A as the one which came off of the elevator car?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; I think it's just like that.

Mr. SPECTER. And, then, when----

Mr. TOMLINSON (interrupting). Here's the deal--I rolled that thing off, we got a call, and went to second floor, picked the man up and brought him down. He went on over across, to clear out of the emergency area, but across from it, and picked up two pints of, I believe it was, blood. He told me to hold for him, he had to get right back to the operating room, so I held, and the minute he hit there, we took off for the second floor and I came back to the ground. Now, I don't know how many people went through that--I don't know how many people hit them--I don't know anything about what could have happened to them in between the time I was gone, and I made several trips before I discovered the bullet on the end of it there.

Mr. SPECTER. You think, then, that this could have been either, you took out of the elevator as you sit here at the moment, or you just can't be sure?

Mr. TOMLINSON. It could be, but I can't be positive or positively sure--I think it was A, but I'm not sure.

Mr. SPECTER. That you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, before I started to ask you questions under oath, which have been taken down here, I told you, did I not, that the Secret Service man wrote a report where he said that the bullet was found on the stretcher which you took off of the elevator--I called that to your attention, didn't I?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; you told me that.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, after I tell you that, does that have any effect on refreshing your recollection of what you told the Secret Service man?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No; it really doesn't--it really doesn't.

Mr. SPECTER. So, would it be a fair summary to say that when I first started to talk to you about it, your first view was that the stretcher you took off of the elevator was stretcher A, and then I told you that the Secret Service man said it was--that you had said the stretcher you took off of the elevator was the one that you found the bullet off, and when we talked about the whole matter and talked over the entire situation, you really can't be completely sure about which stretcher you took off of the elevator, because you didn't push the stretcher that you took off of the elevator right against the wall at first?

Mr. TOMLINSON. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. And, there was a lot of confusion that day, which is what you told me before?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Absolutely. And now, honestly, I don't remember telling him definitely--I know we talked about it, and I told him that it could have been. Now, he might have drawed his own conclusion on that.

Mr. SPECTER. You told the Secret Service agent that you didn't know where----

Mr. TOMLINSON (interrupting). He asked me if it could have been brought down from the second floor.

Mr. SPECTER. You got the stretcher from where the bullet came from, whether it was brought down from the second floor?

Mr. TOMLINSON. It could have been--I'm not sure whether it was A I took off.

Mr. SPECTER. But did you tell the Secret Service man which one you thought it was you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I'm not clear on that--whether I absolutely made a positive statement to that effect.

Mr. SPECTER. You told him that it could have been B you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. But, you don't remember whether you told him it was A you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I think it was A--I'm not really sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Which did you tell the Secret Service agent--that you thought it was A that you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Really, I couldn't be real truthful in saying I told him this or that.

Mr. SPECTER. You just don't remember for sure whether you told him you thought it was A or not?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir; I really don't remember. I'm not accustomed to being questioned by the Secret Service and the FBI and by you and they are writing down everything, I mean.

Mr. SPECTER. That's all right. I understand exactly what you are saying and I appreciate it and I really just want to get your best recollection.

We understand it isn't easy to remember all that went on, on a day like November 22d, and that a man's recollection is not perfect like every other part of a man, but I want you to tell me just what you remember, and that's the best you can do today, and I appreciate that, and so does the President's Commission, and that's all we can ask a man.

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, I'm going to tell you all I can, and I'm not going to tell you something I can't lay down and sleep at night with either.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know where the stretcher came from that you found on the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir; I do not. It could have come from two, it could have come from three, it could have come from some other place.

Mr. SPECTER. You didn't see anybody put it there?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir--it was on the elevator when I got there. There wasn't anyone on the elevator at the time when I keyed it off.

Mr. SPECTER. And when you say "keyed it off," you mean?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Put it in manual operation.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tomlinson, does it make any difference to you whether you sign this deposition at the end or not?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. We very much appreciate your coming, Mr. Tomlinson. Thank you very much. Those are all the questions I have.

Mr. TOMLINSON. All right. Thank you.

Mr. SPECTER. Off the record.

(Discussion between counsel and the witness Tomlinson regarding a proposed exhibit.)

Mr. SPECTER. On the record.

Now that the deposition of Mr. Tomlinson has been concluded, I am having the paper marked as Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2, for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mr. Tomlinson is present, and will you identify this paper marked Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2 as the one which contains the diagram of the emergency room and the letters A and B of the stretchers we have been discussing?

Mr. TOMLINSON. That's just the elevator lobby in emergency.

Mr. SPECTER. And this is the diagram which you drew for us?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. That's all, and thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF DIANA HAMILTON BOWRON

The testimony of Diana Hamilton Bowron was taken at 2:05 p.m., on March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Diana Bowron is present following a verbal request that she appear here to have her deposition taken. During the course of deposition proceedings on March 20 and March 21, it came to my attention that Miss Bowron would have information of value to the Commission, and authorization was provided through the General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, for her deposition to be taken.

Miss Bowron, the President's Commission is investigating the assassination of President Kennedy and is interested in certain facts relating to his treatment and presence at Parkland Memorial Hospital, and we have asked you to appear here to testify concerning your knowledge of his presence here.

Now, I have shown you, have I not, the Executive order appointing the Presidential Commission and the resolution authorizing the taking of testimony at depositions by Commission staff members, have I not?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to have your deposition taken today without 3 days' written notice, as we ordinarily provide?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. So, are you willing to waive that technical requirement?

Miss BOWRON. Yes, I am.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Will you stand up and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before the President's Commission in these deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss BOWRON. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your permanent residence address, Miss Bowron?

Miss BOWRON. 1107 Brockbank, Dallas 29, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you spell that street name and speak up more loudly?

Miss BOWRON. B-r-o-c-k-b-a-n-k [spelling].

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you. Are you a native of Dallas, or of some other area?

Miss BOWRON. I am a native of England.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been in Dallas?

Miss BOWRON. Since August 4, 1963.

Mr. SPECTER. And what are the circumstances surrounding your employment here at Parkland Memorial Hospital?

Miss BOWRON. I answered an advertisement in August and came over on a year's contract and to work in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you a registered nurse?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your educational background?

Miss BOWRON. I went to private boarding school and to secondary school, and then I went through nurses training for 3 years and 3 months in England. I finished in February of last year.

Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you at the present time?

Miss BOWRON. Twenty two.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render assistance to President Kennedy back on November 22, 1963?

Miss BOWRON. I did; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called in to assist in that case?

Miss BOWRON. I was assigned to work in the minor medicine and surgery area, and I was passing through major surgery, and I heard over the intercom that they needed carts out at the emergency room entrance, so the orderly from the triage desk, which was passing through and he and I took one cart from major surgery and ran down the hall and by the cashier's desk there were some men I assume were Secret Service men.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you know at that time whom you were going to aid?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You later assumed they were Secret Service men?

Miss BOWRON. Yes, sir, and they encouraged us to run down to the door.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you have a stretcher with you at that time?

Miss BOWRON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And was one stretcher or more than one stretcher being brought forward at that time?

Miss BOWRON. There was another stretcher being brought forward from the OB--GYN section.

Mr. SPECTER. That's the obstetrics and gynecology section?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you wheeling one stretcher by yourself or was some one helping?

Miss BOWRON. No, the orderly from the triage desk was helping us.

Mr. SPECTER. Was helping you?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was that?

Miss BOWRON. Joe--I've forgotten what his last name is. I'm sorry. I know his first name is Joe and he's on duty today.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was bringing the other stretcher?

Miss BOWRON. I don't know, sir. I heard afterwards, that Dr. Midgett took one stretcher. I don't know who was assisting him.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Dr. Midgett's first name?

Miss BOWRON. Bill.

Mr. SPECTER. And, where did you take your stretcher?

Miss BOWRON. To the left-hand side of the car as you are facing it, and we had to move Governor Connally out first because he was in the front. We couldn't get to the back seat. While all the Secret Service men were moving Governor Connally I went around to the other side of the car to try to help with the President and then we got him onto the second cart and then took him straight over to trauma room 1.

Mr. SPECTER. Trauma room No. 1?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And describe in a general way Governor Connally's condition when you first saw him?

Miss BOWRON. He was very pale, he was leaning forward and onto Mrs. Connally but apparently--I didn't notice very much--I was more concerned with the person in the back of the car--the President.

Mr. SPECTER. And what, in a general way, did you observe with respect to President Kennedy's condition?

Miss BOWRON. He was moribund--he was lying across Mrs. Kennedy's knee and there seemed to be blood everywhere. When I went around to the other side of the car I saw the condition of his head.

Mr. SPECTER. You saw the condition of his what?

Miss BOWRON. The back of his head.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was that condition?

Miss BOWRON. Well, it was very bad--you know.

Mr. SPECTER. How many holes did you see?

Miss BOWRON. I just saw one large hole.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see a small bullet hole beneath that one large hole?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any other wound on the President's body?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what action did you take at that time, if any?

Miss BOWRON. I helped to lift his head and Mrs. Kennedy pushed me away and lifted his head herself onto the cart and so I went around back to the cart and walked off with it. We ran on with it to the trauma room and she ran beside us.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was in the trauma room when you arrived there?

Miss BOWRON. Dr. Carrico.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did Dr. Carrico join you?

Miss BOWRON. At the--I couldn't really tell you exactly, but it was inside major surgery. Miss Henchliffe, the other nurse who is assigned to major surgery, was in the trauma room already setting the I.V.'s--the intravenous bottles up.

Mr. SPECTER. And were there any other nurses present at that time when the President arrived in the trauma area?

Miss BOWRON. I don't think so, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any doctors present besides Dr. Carrico?

Miss BOWRON. I didn't notice anybody--there may have been.

Mr. SPECTER. What action did you observe Dr. Carrico take, if any?

Miss BOWRON. We tried to start an I.V. cutdown and I don't know whether it was his left or his right leg, and Miss Henchliffe and I cut off his clothing and then after that everybody just arrived at once and it was more or less everybody sort of helping everybody else. We opened the chest tube trays and the venesectron trays.

Mr. SPECTER. How long were you present in the emergency room No. 1?

Miss BOWRON. I was in there until they needed some blood, which was the second lot of blood. I went--ran out across to the blood bank and came back and went into the trauma room. By that time they had decided that he was dead, they said.

And then, we stayed in there with him and cleaned him up, removed all of his clothing and put them all together and Miss Henchliffe gave them to one of the Secret Service men, and we stayed with the body until the coffin came, and helped put him in there, and then we----

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we", whom do you mean by "we"?

Miss BOWRON. Miss Henchliffe and myself.

Mr. SPECTER. Anybody besides the two of you?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; there was an orderly called David Sanders who helped us to clean the floor, because there were leaves and sheets and everything was rather a mess on the floor and he came to clean the floor for us so that it wouldn't look so bad when Mrs. Kennedy went in. And then Mrs. Kennedy wanted to be alone with him after the priests left, so we all came out and sat there outside and she was alone with him in the trauma room, and we didn't go in any more after that.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him at any time after that?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir--only when they were wheeling him out in the coffin.

Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were present during the time he was being treated?

Miss BOWRON. Dr. Carrico and--who else was there--there were so many.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall any of the names?

Miss BOWRON. I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other nurses present other than those you have already mentioned?

Miss BOWRON. Miss Standridge, Jeanette Standridge came in, Mrs. Nelson--the supervisor.

Mr. SPECTER. Any other nurses present there?

Miss BOWRON. Not that I could say, sir--I don't know the name of any.

Mr. SPECTER. While the doctors were working on President Kennedy, did you ever have any opportunity to observe his neck?

Miss BOWRON. No; I didn't, until afterwards.

Mr. SPECTER. Until after what?

Miss BOWRON. Until after they had pronounced him dead and we cleaned up and removed the trach tube, and indeed we were really too shocked to really take much notice.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see his neck prior to the time you removed the trach tube?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you personally participate in removing President Kennedy's body from the stretcher?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir--I didn't touch him. We held him with the sheet.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when his body was removed from the stretcher?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; I was.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you observe the stretcher from which his body was removed to be the same stretcher that he had been brought into trauma room No. 1 on?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. That's the stretcher you took out there for him?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what sheets were present on the stretcher or in the adjacent area used in the care of President Kennedy?

Miss BOWRON. The sheets that had already been on the stretcher when we took it out with the President on. When we came back after all the work had been done on him--so that Mrs. Kennedy could have a look before he was, you know, really moved into the coffin. We wrapped some extra sheets around his head so it wouldn't look so bad and there were some sheets on the floor so that nobody would step in the blood. Those were put down during all the work that was going on so the doctors wouldn't slip.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done with all of the sheets on the stretcher and on floor area there?

Miss BOWRON. They were all gathered up and put into a linen scape.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you gather them up yourself?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. All of them?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; with the help of Miss Henchliffe.

Mr. SPECTER. And did the two of you put them in the linen hamper?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; I put them in the linen hamper myself.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done with the stretcher then?

Miss BOWRON. The stretcher was then wheeled across into trauma room No. 2, which was empty.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything on the stretcher at all when it was wheeled into trauma room No. 2?

Miss BOWRON. Not that we noticed, except the rubber mattress that was left on it.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you have noticed anything had anything been on that stretcher?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; I think so.

Mr. SPECTER. And where was the stretcher when you last saw it?

Miss BOWRON. Being wheeled across into trauma room 2.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, I am going to show you three photostatic copies of newspaper stories which I will ask the Court Reporter to mark Bowron Exhibit Nos. 2, 3 and 4.

(Instruments referred to marked by the Reporter as Bowron Exhibit Nos. 2, 3, and 4, for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. Will you look at those and tell me whether or not those are photostatic copies of newspaper accounts of your story of this assassination day?

Miss BOWRON. They are photostatic copies of the articles that appeared in the newspapers, but they are not all my story.

Mr. SPECTER. What newspapers did they appear in?

Miss BOWRON. I believe this is the "Observer".

Mr. SPECTER. You are referring to BX Number 2 and what city is that published in?

Miss BOWRON. London.

Mr. SPECTER. And BX Number 3 came from where?

Miss BOWRON. I think that this was "The Mail--The Daily Mail".

Mr. SPECTER. Appearing in what city?

Miss BOWRON. It appears in all cities. It is a national newspaper.

Mr. SPECTER. In England?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; it is prepared in England.

Mr. SPECTER. And how about BX-4?

Miss BOWRON. Well, this I think was "The Mirror" I think.

Mr. SPECTER. What city is The Mirror published in?

Miss BOWRON. That is a national newspaper.

Mr. SPECTER. Appearing in England?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any stories in any other newspapers about you and your participation in the events of the day at Parkland?

Miss BOWRON. I believe there was one--I think it was an Australian paper and Mrs. Nelson received a letter from there with an article and which was the same as I think--as this one.

Mr. SPECTER. BX-4?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And does that constitute all the stories which appeared about your participation in this event?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you state briefly the circumstances under which this information was obtained, if you know?

Miss BOWRON. Mrs. Nelson spoke to me and told me that there had been two English reporters in Dallas who had been asking about me, and she told them where to get in touch with me, and the next day they came to the emergency room and wanted to speak to me and I said I couldn't tell them anything other than I was from England, gave them my home address, and the fact that I had been present and I was the one who went out to the car and brought the President in and being with him until they finished, and that was all that I told them.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you give them any information beyond that?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir; and they told me that there would probably be some English reporters calling on my parents at home, and I am the only child and my mother worries, so I called home the next--that night and told my parents that I had been on duty and that there would probably be some reporters calling on them, and they weren't to worry about it but they weren't to say anything that--except that I had been on duty and that was all.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Miss BOWRON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. By whom?

Miss BOWRON. I don't really know--he was an FBI agent.

Mr. SPECTER. And when was that?

Miss BOWRON. It was a week or two, I think, after the assassination.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did he ask you and what did you tell him?

Miss BOWRON. He asked us more or less the same questions you have asked us.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell him?

Miss BOWRON. The same as I told you.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "us", whom do you mean by "us"?

Miss BOWRON. Mrs. Nelson was there and Miss Henchliffe and myself.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any other representatives of the Federal Government prior to today?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did I discuss with you the purpose of the deposition and the nature of the questions that I would ask you immediately before we went on the record with this being taken down by the Court Reporter?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me the same information which you have put on the record here today?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add that you think might be helpful in any way to the Commission?

Miss BOWRON. Yes. When we were doing a cutdown on the President's left arm, his gold watch was in the way and they broke it--you know, undid it and it was slipping down and I just dropped it off of his hand and put it in my pocket and forgot completely about it until his body was being taken out of the emergency room and then I realized, and ran out to give it to one of the Secret Service men or anybody I could find and found this Mr. Wright.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that the same day?

Miss BOWRON. Yes--he had only just gone through O.B.--I was just a few feet behind him.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you think of anything else that might be of assistance to the Commission?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming, Miss Bowron.

Miss BOWRON. Thank you.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you a lot.

Miss BOWRON. All right, thank you.

TESTIMONY OF MARGARET M. HENCHLIFFE

The testimony of Margaret M. Henchliffe was taken at 2 p.m., on March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Miss Henchliffe, the purpose of our asking you to come in today is in connection with the investigation being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission has not written to you because, we have learned from Mrs. Doris Nelson in the deposition taken yesterday that you have some information of value to provide to us so that the regular procedure has not been followed of sending you a copy of the Executive order or of the resolution concerning the procedures of the taking of testimony.

Permit me to make those documents available to you.

(Handed instruments to the Witness Henchliffe.)

Let me say that since yesterday I have contacted Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel, in Washington and he has authorized the taking of this deposition by letter, which I received today, so that it has been authorized, and the real question I have with you is whether it is all right with you to provide us with the information you have today, as opposed to sometime next week after you have had the 3 days' notice which you are entitled to if you want it?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. It is all right with me.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it all right with you to proceed and have your deposition taken today?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give before this Commission as it is holding deposition proceedings now will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name, please?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Margaret M. Henchliffe.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I am a nurse, registered nurse.

Mr. SPECTER. And where are you employed?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. And where were you employed on November 22, 1963?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you notified on that date that the President was on his way to the hospital?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir; I didn't know it at the time until later.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you first learn about it, if at all?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I found out who it was when I went out to get blood.

Mr. SPECTER. About what time of day was that?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well. I guess it was about 2 minutes after he came in.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe him at some place in the hospital?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I was working with him in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Had he arrived in the emergency room when you first arrived at the site of the emergency room?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Do what?

Mr. SPECTER. Were you in the area of the emergency room before he came there?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him actually wheeled into the emergency room?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes; in fact, I helped wheel him on into trauma room 1.

Mr. SPECTER. And, where was he when you first saw him?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. He was between trauma rooms 1 and 2.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him when he was brought into the hospital itself?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. At the emergency entrance--no. It was after he came into the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. He came into the emergency area?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And then you saw him and helped wheel him, you say, into the emergency room No. 1?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And who else was present at the time you first saw him when he had just come into the emergency area?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Let me see, I think Dr. Carrico was there--he was there very shortly after--afterwards.

Mr. SPECTER. He was there when you arrived? Or arrived shortly after you did?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, actually I went in ahead of the cart with him and I was the first one in with him, and just in a minute, or seconds, Dr. Carrico came in.

Mr. SPECTER. And what other doctors arrived, if any?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Oh, gee. Let's see--there was Dr. Baxter, Dr. Perry, and you want all of them that were in the room?

Mr. SPECTER. If you can remember them.

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Dr. Kemp Clark, Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Peters, Dr. Crenshaw, and there was some woman anesthetist that I don't know which--who it was.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe to be the President's condition when you first saw him?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I saw him breathe a couple of times and that was all.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see any wound anywhere on his body?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, he was very bloody; his head was very bloody when I saw him at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see any wound in any other part of his body?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. When I first saw him--except his head.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see any wound on any other part of his body?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes; in the neck.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe it, please?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. It was just a little hole in the middle of his neck.

Mr. SPECTER. About how big a hole was it?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. About as big around as the end of my little finger.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any experience with bullet holes?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did that appear to you to be?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. An entrance bullet hole--it looked to me like.

Mr. SPECTER. Could it have been an exit bullet hole?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I have never seen an exit bullet hole--I don't remember seeing one that looked like that.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics of the hole?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. It was just a little round--just a little round hole, just a little round jagged-looking--jagged a little bit.

Mr. SPECTER. What experience have you had in observing bullet holes, Miss Henchliffe?