Chapter XXVII: Part 27

Mr. BELIN. From the east side, were you standing in the third pair, of either of those windows?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now of that third pair, from the east side, would it have been the east window or the west window?

Miss ADAMS. The west window.

Mr. BELIN. So another way, if you don't count in pairs, but count in single units from the east side, you would have been in the sixth window from your left as you were facing out the window, is that correct?

Miss ADAMS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Were you standing with anyone?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. With whom?

Miss ADAMS. I was standing with Sandra Styles, Elsie Dorman, and Dorothy May Garner.

Mr. BELIN. Will you state what you saw, what you did, and what you heard?

Miss ADAMS. I watched the motorcade come down Main, as it turned from Main onto Houston, and watched it proceed around the corner on Elm, and apparently somebody in the crowd called to the late President, because he and his wife both turned abruptly and faced the building, so we had a very good view of both of them.

Mr. BELIN. Where was their car as you got this good view, had it come directly opposite your window? Had it come to that point on Elm, or not, if you can remember?

Miss ADAMS. I believe it was prior, just a second or so prior to that.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Miss ADAMS. And from our vantage point we were able to see what the President's wife was wearing, the roses in the car, and things that would attract women's attention. Then we heard--then we were obstructed from the view.

Mr. BELIN. By what?

Miss ADAMS. A tree. And we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.

It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report.

And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.

Mr. BELIN. When you say on the way out to the Houston Street dock, you mean now you were on the way out?

Miss ADAMS. While I was on the way out.

Mr. BELIN. Was anyone going along with you?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir; Sandra Styles.

Mr. BELIN. Sometime after the third shot, and I don't want to get into the actual period of time yet, you went back into the stockroom which would be to the north of where your offices are located on the fourth floor, is that correct?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir; that's correct.

Mr. BELIN. When you got into the stockroom, where did you go?

Miss ADAMS. I went to the back stairs.

Mr. BELIN. Are there any other stairs that lead down from the fourth floor other than those back stairs in the rear of the stockroom?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Those stairs would be in the northwest corner of the building, is that correct?

Miss ADAMS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. You took those stairs. Were you walking or running as you went down the stairs?

Miss. ADAMS. I was running. We were running.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of shoes did you have on?

Miss ADAMS. Three-inch heels.

Mr. BELIN. You had heels. Now, as you were running down the stairs, did you encounter anyone?

Miss ADAMS. Not during the actual running down the stairs; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. After you left the Scott Foresman office and went into the stockroom, did you see anyone until you got to the stairs on the fourth floor other than the person you were with?

Miss ADAMS. Outside of our office employees; no.

Mr. BELIN. Would these office employees that you might have seen, all be women?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then you got to the stairs and you started going down the stairs. You went from the fourth floor to the third floor?

Miss ADAMS. That's correct?

Mr. BELIN. Anyone on the stairs then?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. As you got to the stairs on the fourth floor, did you notice whether or not the elevator was running?

Miss ADAMS. The elevator was not moving.

Mr. BELIN. How do you know it was not moving on some other floor?

Miss ADAMS. Because the cables move when the elevator is moved, and this is evidenced because of a wooden grate.

Mr. BELIN. By that you mean a wooden door with slats in it that you have to lift up to get on the elevator?

Miss ADAMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you look to see if the elevator was moving?

Miss ADAMS. It was not; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. It was not moving?

Miss ADAMS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you happen to see where the elevator might have been located?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. As you got to the third door, did you take a look at the elevator again at all, or not, if you remember?

Miss ADAMS. I can't recall.

Mr. BELIN. As you got off the stairs on the third floor, did you see anyone on the third floor?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then you immediately went to the stairs going down from the third to the second?

Miss ADAMS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. As you ran down the stairs, did you see anyone on the stairs?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You got down to the second floor. Did you see anyone by the second floor?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you immediately turn and run and keep on running down the stairs towards the first floor?

Miss ADAMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Who did you see?

Miss ADAMS. Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you see them on the first floor?

Miss ADAMS. Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.

Mr. BELIN. You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the Texas School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley?

Miss ADAMS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. It would be slightly east of the front of the east elevator, and probably as far south as the length of the elevator, is that correct?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I have a document here called Commission's Exhibit No. 496, which includes a diagram of the first door, and there is a No. 7 and a circle on it, and I have pointed to a place marked No. 7 on the diagram. Is that correct?

Miss ADAMS. That is approximate.

Mr. BELIN. Between the time you got off the stairs and the time you got to this point when you say you encountered them, which was somewhat to the south and a little bit east of the front of the east elevator, did you see any other employees there?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Any other people prior to the time you saw them?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now when you were running down the stairs on your trip down the stairs, did you hear anyone using the stairs?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear anyone calling for an elevator?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the foreman, Roy Truly? Did you see the superintendent of the warehouse, Roy S. Truly?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. What about any motorcycle police officers?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now what did you do after you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?

Miss ADAMS. I said I believed the President was shot.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what they said?

Miss ADAMS. Nothing.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Miss ADAMS. I proceeded out to the Houston Street dock.

Mr. BELIN. That would be on this same diagram? It is marked Houston Street dock, and you went through what would be the north door, which is towards the rear of the first floor, is that correct?

And down some stairs towards the rear of the dock?

Miss ADAMS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go from there?

Miss ADAMS. I proceeded--which way is east and west?

Mr. BELIN. East is here. East is towards Houston, and west is towards the railroad tracks.

You went east or west? Towards the railroad tracks or towards Houston Street?

Miss ADAMS. I went west towards the tracks.

Mr. BELIN. How far west did you go?

Miss ADAMS. I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here."

And he said, "That is tough, get back."

I said, "Well, was the President shot?"

And he said, "I don't know. Go back."

And I said, "All right."

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Miss ADAMS. I went back, only I went southwest.

Mr. BELIN. Well, did you come back by way of the street, or did you come back the same entrance you went out?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You went back in through the front entrance, through the front of the building?

Miss ADAMS. Well, I didn't go back in right away.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

There is a street that would be a continuation of Elm Street that goes in front of the building, and Elm Street itself angles into the freeway. Did you go back either of those streets?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir. I went by the one directly in front of the building.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?

Miss ADAMS. When I got there, I happened to look around and noticed several of the employees, and I noticed Joe Molina, for one, was standing in front of the building, and also Avery Davis, who works with me, and I said, "What do you think has happened?"

And she said, "I don't know."

And I said, "I want to find out." I think the President is shot.

There was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of Houston and Elm directly in front of the east end of the building, and I paused there to listen to the report on the police radio, and they said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the fourth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did they say second floor or second floor from the top?

Miss ADAMS. It said second floor. So then I decided maybe I had better go back into the building, and going up the stairs----

Mr. BELIN. Now at this time when you went back into the building, were there any policemen standing in front of the building keeping people out?

Miss ADAMS. There was an officer on the stairs itself, and he was prohibiting people from entering the building, that is correct. But I told him I worked there.

Mr. BELIN. Did he let you come back in?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Miss ADAMS. Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.

Mr. BELIN. You then went all the way back to the northwest corner of the building and took the same set of stairs you had previously taken to come down, or did you take the stairs by the passenger elevator?

Miss ADAMS. By the passenger elevator.

Mr. BELIN. Do those stairs go above floor 2?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir; they didn't.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the second floor?

Miss ADAMS. I went into the Texas School Book Depository office and just listened for a few minutes to the people that were congregating there, and decided there wasn't anything interesting going on, and went out and walked around the hall to the freight elevator meaning the one on the northwest corner.

Mr. BELIN. Would it have been the west or the east? The one nearest the stairs or the other one?

Miss ADAMS. Yes; the one nearest the stairs.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Miss ADAMS. I went into the elevator which was stopped on the second floor, with two men who were dressed in suit and hats, and I assumed they were plainclothesmen.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Miss ADAMS. I tried to get the elevator to go to the fourth floor, but it wasn't operating, so the gentlemen lifted the elevator gate and we went out and ran up the stairs to the fourth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Then you went back to the Scott Foresman Company offices?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now trying to reconstruct your actions insofar as the time sequence, which we haven't done, what is your best estimate of the time between the time the shots were fired and the time you got back to the building? How much time elapsed? If you have any estimate. Maybe you don't have one.

Miss ADAMS. I would estimate not more than 5 minutes elapsed.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any particular reason why you make this estimation?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was running. I ran to the railroad tracks. I moved quickly to the front of the building, paused briefly to talk to someone, listened only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired, and returned to the building.

Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?

Miss ADAMS. Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.

Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it was, or do you think it took you to get from the window to the top of the fourth floor stairs?

Miss ADAMS. I don't think I can answer that question accurately, because the time approximation, without a stopwatch, would be difficult.

Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it took you to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?

Miss ADAMS. I would say no longer than a minute at the most.

Mr. BELIN. So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, approximately.

Mr. BELIN. As I understand your testimony previously, you saw neither Roy Truly nor any motorcycle police officer at any time?

Miss ADAMS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. You heard no one else running down the stairs?

Miss ADAMS. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. When you got to the first floor did you immediately proceed to this point where you say you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?

Well, you showed me on a diagram of the first floor that there was a place which was south and somewhat east of the front part of the east elevator that you encountered Truly and Lovelady?

Miss ADAMS. I saw them there.

Mr. BELIN. I mean; you saw them?

Miss ADAMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Would that have been a matter of seconds after you got to the bottom of the first floor?

Miss ADAMS. Definitely.

Mr. BELIN. Less than 30 seconds?

Miss ADAMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know, or did you know Lee Harvey Oswald either by sight or by name?

Miss ADAMS. I didn't know Lee Harvey Oswald, per se. I didn't know his name. I recognized him after I saw him on television, as having been with some men, but I had no dealing with him.

Mr. BELIN. By that, you mean having been employed with some men by the Texas School Book Depository?

Miss ADAMS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. During the trip down the stairs on the way down did you ever encounter Lee Harvey Oswald?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information that you can think of that might be relevant to anything connected with the assassination?

Miss ADAMS. At the time I left the building on the Houston Street dock, there was an officer standing about 2 yards from the curb, and about from the curb across the street from the Texas School Depository, and about 4 yards from the corner of Houston and Elm, and when we were running out the dock, going around the building, the officer was standing there, and he didn't encounter us or ask us what we were doing or where we were going, and I don't know if that is pertinent.

Mr. BELIN. No one stopped you from getting out of the building when you left?

Miss ADAMS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. That is helpful information. Is there any other information that you have that could be relevant?

Miss ADAMS. There was a man that was standing on the corner of Houston and Elm asking questions there. He was dressed in a suit and a hat, and when I encountered Avery Davis going down, we asked who he was, because he was questioning people as if he were a police officer, and we noticed him take a colored boy away on a motorcycle, and this man was asking questions very efficaciously, and we said, "I guess he is maybe a reporter," and later on on television, there was a man that looked very similar to him, and he was identified as Ruby.

And on questioning some police officer, they said they had witnesses to the fact that he was in the Dallas Morning News at the time. And I don't know whether that is relevant or what.

Mr. BELIN. That is all right, we want to get that information down. Was this before you got back in the front door of the building that you saw this?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir; while I was standing by the motorcycles.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else?

Miss ADAMS. That is all, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. Miss Adams, you have the opportunity if you would like, to read this deposition and sign it before it goes to Washington, or you can waive the signing of it and just let the court reporter send it directly to us. Do you have any preference?

Miss ADAMS. I think I will let you use your own discretion.

Mr. BELIN. It doesn't make any difference to us. If it doesn't make any difference, we can waive it and you won't have to make another trip down here.

Miss ADAMS. That is all right.

Mr. BELIN. We want to thank you for your cooperation. We know that it has taken time on your part. Would you also thank your employer?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.

TESTIMONY OF GENEVA L. HINE

The testimony of Geneva L. Hine was taken at 2:45 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Please stand up and hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss HINE. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Miss HINE. Geneva L. Hine.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live.

Miss HINE. 2305 Oakdale Road in Dallas.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something about yourself; where you were born and raised, and educated and what kind of work you have done.

Miss. HINE. I was born and raised in Martinsville, Ind., and I graduated from elementary and junior high and high school at that same town. I attended the Ball State Teachers' College in Muncie, Ind., and I attended Metropolitan Bible Institute in Suffern, N.Y., and I received my Bachelor of Science theology degree from Assembly of God College in Waxahachie, Tex.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Miss HINE. Oh, I have always worked as a one-girl office girl until the job I have now.

Mr. BALL. When did you go to work at the Texas School Book Depository?

Miss HINE. In December 1956.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do there?

Miss HINE. I have the credit desk.

Mr. BALL. Now, in November, November 22, 1963, where was your desk; in what part of the building?

Miss HINE. My desk was on the second floor, the inside wall just along by the corridor.

Mr. BALL. Did you spend most of your time at your desk?

Miss HINE. At that time?

Mr. BALL. Yes; at that time.

Miss HINE. No, sir; the girls were gone and they wanted to go out and see.

Mr. BALL. I mean did you spend most of your time in your work--it was a desk job?

Miss HINE. Yes; that's right.

Mr. BALL. Did you go in the other floors of the building any?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; as my duties necessitated I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever know a fellow named Lee Harvey Oswald?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When did you first meet him?

Miss HINE. I never met him to know his name but I saw him every day.

Mr. BALL. Where did you see him?

Miss HINE. Downstairs in the warehouse or stockroom whichever you want to call it.

Mr. BALL. The first floor?

Miss HINE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him on any other floors?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I saw him on the second floor about noontime almost every day. He would come in and ask for change, for a dime or quarter.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him use any part of the second floor?

Miss HINE. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him spend the dime to buy anything with it?

Miss HINE. No, sir; the coke machine isn't in our room and I wouldn't have seen it.

Mr. BALL. Where is the coke machine?

Miss HINE. Out in the little lunchroom back of our office.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to Oswald?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever speak to you?

Miss HINE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. He never replied to you?

Miss HINE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Would you say he was unfriendly?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I would.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him smile or laugh?

Miss HINE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of an expression did he have on his face most of the time?

Miss HINE. I describe it as being stoic.

Mr. BALL. That's a pretty good description if he doesn't smile.

Miss HINE. It was just----

Mr. BALL. Did you ever mention this to any of the people around there about Oswald?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I mentioned it to Mr. Shelley.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Miss HINE. One day I said to Mr. Shelley, "Who is that queer duck you have working down here" and I said that just as a matter of slang because I've known Mr. Shelley for a long time and I was just talking to him, you see, and usually, all the boys that work down there speak to me because I have to go down there to pick up the little "comp" or gift slips on my desk. Every time I went by him I would speak to him, say "Good morning" and he would never catch or meet my gaze so I just made that remark to Mr. Shelley because I had spoken to him so many times and he never answered.

Mr. BALL. What did Shelley say?

Miss HINE. He said that was just his way.

Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, did you know that there was to be a motorcade or parade come by your building?

Miss HINE. Oh, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How did you find that out?

Miss HINE. Sir, I don't remember. I probably heard over the news but I cannot remember.

Mr. BALL. You were just aware of the fact?

Miss HINE. Yes; I knew it and the girls were discussing it in the office that morning. Many of them, probably six, had not seen the President close. You see, I had seen him on two different occasions and I had been very close to him and so they were lamenting that they couldn't go out so I spoke up and said "I will be glad to answer the telephone so you girls may go out and see the motorcade" and I had previously answered the telephone when we were in the other building before we moved in this building, so they were delighted and I thought nothing about it.

Mr. BALL. Did they all go out?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; everyone went out.

Mr. BALL. Was there anyone left in the office part of the building on that second floor office?

Miss HINE. Only Mr. Williams and myself and he stayed with me because he was working on his desk until he thought that the motorcade was about there.

Mr. BALL. Then he went out?

Miss HINE. When he thought it was about there he said "I think I will go out for 5 minutes."

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Miss HINE. Otis N. Williams.

Mr. BALL. He works in the office, too?

Miss HINE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you have to change your desk over to another desk?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; to the middle desk on the front row.

Mr. BALL. Was there a switchboard?

Miss HINE. No, sir; we have a telephone with three incoming lines, then we have the warehouse line and we have an intercom system.

Mr. BALL. You don't have a switchboard?

Miss HINE. Not now; we did in the other building.

Mr. BALL. Were you alone then at this time?

Miss HINE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you stay at your desk?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I was alone until the lights all went out and the phones became dead because the motorcade was coming near us and no one was calling so I got up and thought I could see it from the east window in our office.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to the window?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you look out?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you see?

Miss HINE. I saw the escort car come first up the middle of Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. Going north on Houston Street?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; going north on Houston Street. I saw it turn left and I saw the President's car coming and I saw the President and saw him waving his hand in greeting up in the air and I saw his wife and I saw him turn the corner and after he turned the corner I looked and I saw the next car coming just at the instant I saw the next car coming up was when I heard the shots.

Mr. BALL. How many did you hear?

Miss HINE. Three.

Mr. BALL. Could you tell where the shots were coming from?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; they came from inside the building.

Mr. BALL. How do you know that?

Miss HINE. Because the building vibrated from the result of the explosion coming in.

Mr. BALL. It appeared to you that the shots came from the building?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you know they were shots at the time?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; they sounded almost like cannon shots they were so terrific.

Mr. BALL. That is when you were at the window, is that right?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; that is when I was at the window, because the next car, you see, was coming up and turning and I looked. Of course I looked when I heard the shots. I just stood there and saw people running to the east up Elm Street. I saw people running; I saw people falling down, you know, lying down on the sidewalk.

Mr. BALL. That was on Houston Street?

Miss HINE. No, sir; Elm.

Mr. BALL. You could see--could you see any part of Elm?

Miss HINE. East, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You could see east on Elm?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I could see east on Elm. I saw them run across east on Elm away from where his car had gone and my first thought was if I could only see what happened, so I went out our front door into the foyer.

Mr. BALL. You mean the front door to the office?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That opens on----

Miss HINE. The foyer, little hall, and----

Mr. BALL. Steps lead down?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; but there is a door before the steps and the elevator is to my left and I went past the hall that goes to my right and I knocked on the door of Lyons and Carnahan; that's a publishing company.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Miss HINE. I tried the door, sir, and it was locked and I couldn't get in and I called, "Lee, please let me in," because she's the girl that had that office, Mrs. Lee Watley, and she didn't answer. I don't know if she was there or not, then I left her door. I retraced my steps back to where the hall turns to my left and went down it to Southwestern Publishing Co.'s door and I tried their door and the reason for this was because those windows face out.

Mr. BALL. On to Elm?

Miss HINE. Yes; and on to the triple underpass.

Mr. BALL. I see.

Miss HINE. And there was a girl in there talking on the telephone and I could hear her but she didn't answer the door.

Mr. BALL. Was the door locked?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That was which company?

Miss HINE. Southwestern Publishing Co.

Mr. BALL. Did you call to her?

Miss HINE. I called and called and shook the door and she didn't answer me because she was talking on the telephone; I could hear her. They have a little curtain up and I could see her form through the curtains. I could see her talking and I knew that's what she was doing and then I turned and went through the back hall and came through the back door.

Mr. BALL. Of your office, the second floor office?

Miss HINE. Yes; and I went straight up to the desk because the telephones were beginning to wink; outside calls were beginning to come in.

Mr. BALL. Did they did come in rapidly?

Miss HINE. They did come in rapidly.

Mr. BALL. When you came back in did you see Mrs. Reid?

Miss HINE. No, sir; I don't believe there was a soul in the office when I came back in right then.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody else go in through there?

Miss HINE. No, sir; after I answered the telephone then there was about four or five people that came in.

Mr. BALL. Was there anybody in that room when you came back in and went to the telephone?

Miss HINE. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Mrs. Reid come back in?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I think I felt sure that I did. I thought that there were five or six that came in together. I thought she was one of those.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Reid told us she came in alone and when she came in she didn't see anybody there.

Miss HINE. Well, it could be that she did, sir. I was talking on the phones and then came the policemen and then came the press. Everybody was wanting an outside line and then our vice president came in and he said "The next one that was clear, I have to have it" and so I was busy with the phone.

Mr. BALL. From the time you walked into the room you became immediately busy with the phone?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; sure was.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald come in?

Miss HINE. My back would have been to the door he was supposed to have come in at.

Mr. BALL. Were you facing the door he is supposed to have left by?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you recall seeing him?

Miss HINE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you have any definite recollection of Mrs. Reid coming in?

Miss HINE. No, sir; I only saw four or five people that came by and they all came and were all talking about how terrible it was.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember their names?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who were they?

Miss HINE. Mr. Williams, Mr. Molina (spelling), Miss Martha Reid, Mrs. Reid, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell; that's all I recall, sir.

Mr. BALL. Miss Hine, this will be written up and it will be submitted for your signature if you wish, or you can waive signature right now; which do you prefer? Do you have any choice?

Miss HINE. Well, I would prefer to see it.

Mr. BALL. Prefer to see it, all right, then this young lady will inform you to come down, read it, look it over and sign it.

Miss HINE. Okay.

Mr. BALL. Thanks very much for coming in.

Miss HINE. You are very welcome.

TESTIMONY OF MISS DORIS BURNS

The testimony of Miss Doris Burns was taken at 3:20 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Please stand up and hold up your right hand and be sworn.

Miss BURNS. (complying).

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss BURNS. I do.

Mr. BALL. What is your name, please?

Miss BURNS. Doris Burns.

Mr. BALL. What is your address?

Miss BURNS. 2617 Shelby, Dallas.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Miss BURNS. I am a correspondent for the Macmillan Co.

Mr. BALL. Where is your office?

Miss BURNS. In the Texas School Book Depository Building on the third floor.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and what your education is, and what your business occupation has been.

Miss BURNS. Well, I was born in Tyler, Tex., and I graduated from high school here in Dallas and I worked many years for lawyers here.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work?

Miss BURNS. Well, I was just a legal secretary and worked for Vanette Hosiery Mills, secretary to the president. They are not here any more, I don't think. After that I worked for a geologist.

Mr. BALL. Most of your work has been secretarial, has it?

Miss BURNS. Yes, but at Macmillan I mostly compose my own letters.

Mr. BALL. When did you go to work for Macmillan?

Miss BURNS. April 19, 1955. Am I too fast?

Mr. BALL. She can write as fast as you talk.

Miss BURNS. That's wonderful.

Mr. BALL. Go right ahead.

Miss BURNS. Let's see, I've forgotten what else you wanted to know.

Mr. BALL. Well, first of all, you went to work in 1955?

Miss BURNS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where is the office of the Macmillan Co.?

Miss BURNS. Well, at that time it was on Ross and Akard; now----

Mr. BALL. Where was it in November 1963?

Miss BURNS. At Elm and Houston.

Mr. BALL. What part of the building?

Miss BURNS. On the third floor, room 301.

Mr. BALL. Are there any windows in those offices?

Miss BURNS. Yes; they have some windows; they face the west, I guess you would say. They don't overlook the route of the President's----

Mr. BALL. Do they or do they not overlook Elm Street?

Miss BURNS. They do not overlook Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. They overlook the railroad yards, do they?

Miss BURNS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. On November 22d, what were you doing that day?

Miss BURNS. I was listening to the radio as I worked.

Mr. BALL. About noon, did you go to lunch?

Miss BURNS. Well, I had lunch at the office and then I didn't intend to go see the President, didn't have any desire to but I left about--I don't remember the exact time but, anyway, when I left they said on the radio that he--that the motorcade was coming up, I believe it was Cedar Springs; anyway, he hadn't been away from the airport long and that he was going about 5 miles an hour so everybody could see him. Well, thinking he was going that slowly, I thought I had plenty of time, so I walked up to Sanger's.

Mr. BALL. To where?

Miss BURNS. Sanger's.

Mr. BALL. Where is that?

Miss BURNS. It's about four blocks up Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. Which way on Elm--east?

Miss BURNS. East; you see, we are down at the extreme west end of the street; nothing else down there.

Mr. BALL. Then what happened?

Miss BURNS. I bought some Kleenex and came back, and everybody was out on the steps to look, but I didn't stop. I went on back to the office.

Mr. BALL. That is the third floor?

Miss BURNS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was anybody in the office?

Miss BURNS. Yes; Mrs. Case hadn't ever gone out. She was there. I believe she was the only one.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Miss BURNS. I listened to the radio, and by that time they said that he was on Main and turning at Houston or Main by the courthouse, so since he was that close, I thought, well, I guess I will go look out the window. I didn't care enough to go downstairs, but I thought I will go look out the window. So I thought I would have plenty of time, if he was just coming around Main Street, that I could still get around there, so I went around to American Book Co., which is the office closest to us that had a window looking out on Elm. There was nobody in there, so then I started down the hall to Allyn and Bacon. As I went down this hall towards the windows that looked out on Houston Street, I heard a shot, but I didn't think much about it. I didn't, of course, know it was a shot because when you hear tires backfire and all, they all sound alike to me, so I didn't think a thing about that.

I went around to Allyn and Bacon, and Mr. Wilson, the manager, was at the window looking out. He was the only one in there, so I asked him if I could look out the window with him. About that time he said "Oh, my God, there's been a shooting." I still didn't think anybody, of course, had been killed, just thought somebody had shot in the air or something, so I said "Has the President already passed? And he said "Yes," so I looked out and that big bus that had the press in it, had the word "Press" or whatever it was on the bus, was passing, so I said "Well, I guess I have missed the President then," and I started on back out of the office and I just said as I left, "Well, I hope nobody got hurt."

Mr. BALL. You heard how many shots?

Miss BURNS. One.

Mr. BALL. Just one?

Miss BURNS. It must have been the last one because I didn't hear any more.

Mr. BALL. Did you have any idea where it was coming from?

Miss BURNS. Well, it just sounded as though it was back of me. You see, I was going towards Houston Street. I was facing east and it sounded to me as if it came toward my back.

Mr. BALL. You were in the building?

Miss BURNS. Yes; I was in the building.

Mr. BALL. Walking down the hall?

Miss BURNS. Walking down the hall going towards Allyn and Bacon.

Mr. BALL. Now, what happened after that?

Miss BURNS. I came on back and listened to the radio some more and in a few minutes, why, they told it.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever know Lee Harvey Oswald?

Miss BURNS. I rode on the elevator with him one time.

Mr. BALL. That's all?

Miss BURNS. But I didn't know who he was--about a week before.

Mr. BALL. You never talked to him?

Miss BURNS. I never talked to him.

Mr. BALL. Who were you with at the time this happened?

Miss BURNS. The Macmillan Co.

Mr. BALL. Who was in the office with you?

Miss BURNS. Mrs. Case, but I couldn't see her.

Mr. BALL. She was in the same office?

Miss BURNS. I have a private office. She was around the corner where her office is.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Case?

Miss BURNS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anybody running down the stairs at any time?

Miss BURNS. Yes, but I didn't know----

Mr. BALL. When?

Miss BURNS. It was after that; I went to the restroom.

Mr. BALL. How long after?

Miss BURNS. I imagine maybe it was 25 minutes. I imagine it was the policeman or somebody; of course, I don't know who it was.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all, Miss Burns. This will be written up and you can sign it; you can read it and sign it or you can waive your signature if you wish and you won't have to come back here. Which would you rather do?

Miss BURNS. I can waive signature if that is all right.

Mr. BALL. Fine, thank you very much, Miss Burns.

TESTIMONY OF MARY E. BLEDSOE

The testimony of Mary E. Bledsoe was taken at 9:30 a.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, David W. Belin, and Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mrs. Mary E. Bledsoe was accompanied by her attorney, Miss Melody June Douthit.

Mr. BALL. Will you stand up, Mrs. Bledsoe, please. Will you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I do.

Mr. BALL. State your name, please.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Mary E. Bledsoe.

Mr. BALL. And your residence?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. 621 North Marsalis.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Bledsoe, you received a letter from the counsel for the Commission asking you to be here today, didn't you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you received that what date? March 26, or was it March 27?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. When? This first time?

Miss DOUTHIT. No, back.

Mr. BALL. I mean the letter your attorney just showed me. Seventeenth of March?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. And you have come down here in response to that letter, haven't you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you are here appearing with your attorney, who is present at this time?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You've been asked to give testimony in this matter which concerns an investigation into the assassination of President Kennedy, and certain facts which you have, which I believe that you knew of, and we are going to ask you questions about it. That is the general subject of the investigation.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. And you are willing to testify, are you not?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And give us as much help as you can?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What is your--you have given us your address, haven't you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something, briefly, about your past life? Where you were born and what your education was and what your occupation has been?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I was born in the country. Town of about 12 miles from Corsicanna, Tex. My father was a doctor down there, and I was a second child; I have a brother older than I am. And then I moved to Ennis, and then come to Dallas and lived here until I was a little girl, 4 or 5 years old, then I went back down to Ennis and my father practiced medicine in Ennis, Tex., and then about--I married then when I was 17, and then I moved around quite a little while I was married, but--and then my husband and I, we had trouble, and I divorced him in--oh, about in 1925, and I raised my two children by myself, and I have been in the place where I live 24 years, and over on the back, I was--I have been here 43 years in the neighborhood, and I raised both of my boys, and they are grown.

Mr. BALL. Your occupation has been that of a housewife?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. Well, I had rented rooms, but I had some money my father had given me. I had some money from him.

Mr. BALL. Your present address, you rent rooms, do you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I do, now. I have just started in September again. My son left home, you see, and I started----

Mr. BALL. That was September of 1963?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How large a house is that?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, it is all on one floor. And I have four bedrooms, but I rent three.

Mr. BALL. In September of 1963, you were living there alone, were you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; my son was living there.

Mr. BALL. And he left?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Did you rent rooms before your son left your home?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, let's see, now, oh, yes; uh-huh, in September I----

Mr. BALL. Except his bedroom?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. When he left you rented another bedroom, did you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well yes; I am trying to. Haven't got it rented.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you ever rent a room in your home to Lee Oswald?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me about the first time that you ever saw him. What the date was?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. The first time I ever saw him or heard of him, I was in the backyard doing a lot of yardwork. I come around the house and he was standing on the porch, and he said, "Do you have a room for rent?"

I had a "for rent" sign out. I said, "Yes" and he said, "May I see it?"

And I wanted--"Yes"; and then I was trying to size him up to get in that room, and--in the house, and I said, "Are you married?"

And he said, "Yes; I am married. I just want this for a short time. My wife lives at Irving."

And then we got inside the house and he had a thing where this--pictures of his wife and baby, and he said he was in the Marine Corps, and I tried to be nice to him, and so, he paid me $7, and----

Mr. BALL. Then did he tell you what his name was?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. His name was Oswald, and he put it on this thing, and my son took it and sold it.

Mr. BALL. You said he put it on this thing?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. This right here.

Mr. BALL. What is, "this thing"?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Calendar.

Mr. BALL. Well----

Miss DOUTHIT. Mary, why don't you pull up your chair and be comfortable while you are doing this. Now, you are all right.

Mr. BALL. Now, you have a calendar here?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. That is my calendar.

Mr. BALL. That is the calendar for December 1963, and I notice it has dates and names and dates. Is that the way you keep books on your rooms?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; but I don't now. I did then, because I just had started. The first one I got was in September.

Mr. BALL. September of 1963?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. He put his name on the calendar?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, got it in September. He got it, my son sold it for $5, and I didn't even know that he tore that out.

Mr. BALL. Now, let me see here in this calendar. It runs from January 1963, to December of 1963, but October of 1963, has been torn out?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. And he said his name was Lee Oswald was what his name was, and I said, "Well, I can't think of that name Oswald, I will call you Lee."

So, he put it down on the 4th. Just rented for a week, you see, the 7th.

Mr. BALL. You said the 4th?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. On the 7th.

Mr. BALL. On the 7th of October? That is the first day you ever saw him?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Ever saw him.

Mr. BALL. On the 7th of October you rented the room to him, didn't you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. And is that the date that he put his name on the calendar?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; that is the day.

Mr. BALL. He paid you $7?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. $7 in money.

Mr. BALL. That was the rental?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. For one room.

Mr. BALL. For one room for 1 week?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When did he move into the room?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Right then.

Mr. BALL. Did he have his things?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Had his things on his hand and had his bag, but after he paid my $7 he went out--I don't know, I think this YMCA, but I am not supposed to know where, and brought back another bag, and then he said, "Well, where is the grocery store?"

Well, I said, "It is down that way," but I didn't want him to use the kitchen, so, he said, "I'm going to get some milk," and so, I didn't like that much, but I didn't say anything about it because I wanted to get along with him.

Mr. BALL. Let me ask you some questions before we commence the grocery store part of it.

When you first saw him, did he have his luggage with him?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did he have with him?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. A bag.

Mr. BALL. Will you describe the bag?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't remember where--seemed like it was a kind of a duffelbag.

Mr. BALL. The kind the men in the service put their clothes in?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; and had some on his arm, these coathangers, you know.

Mr. BALL. Had some things on a coathanger?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. And had a clock.

Mr. BALL. Had what?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. A clock, wrapped up.

Mr. BALL. What color was this duffelbag?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I think it was blue.

Mr. BALL. That was the only bag he had with him?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, he went off to town and got another one.

Mr. BALL. Then he went off to town and brought another bag back, would you describe that?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, I didn't pay any attention to it.

Mr. BALL. Was it leather or----

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I couldn't say.

Mr. BALL. Could you give me any idea of the size of it?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, it was big. About like that [indicating].

Mr. BALL. About like that, you mean, oh, 3 feet long, 2 feet, 2-1/2?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; about like that.

Mr. BALL. About----

Mrs. BLEDSOE. As well as I remember.

Mr. BALL. About 2 feet long? Was it brown?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I just couldn't remember. I didn't pay any attention to it.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember the color?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember him carrying it into the room?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I remember he went in.

Mr. BALL. Now----

Mrs. BLEDSOE. But, I didn't pay any attention. He rented the room, and I didn't pay any attention.

Mr. BALL. Did he carry it by a handle, or in his arms?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I guess he carried it by a handle, but I don't know.

Mr. BALL. He brought two bags into this room?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; wasn't but one when he come in, but next time he went off----

Mr. BALL. He brought another one back?

How did he come out there, do you know?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know. I don't know whether he come here--he come and just knocked on the door. I was in the backyard.

Mr. BALL. After he moved, after he put his bags in his room, did he leave?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he said----