Chapter XXXI: Part 31

So then I turned and walked off. I never did assist him after that at all.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BENAVIDES. At the time I walked out, I guess I was scared, so I started across the street--alley between the two houses to my mother's house, and I got in the yard and I said I'd better go back, or just caught myself until I got over there, I guess, so I went back around there.

Mr. BELIN. When you went back, what did you do?

First of all, was there anything up to that time that you saw there or that you did that you haven't related here that you can think of right now?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Well. I started--I seen him throw the shells and I started to stop and pick them up, and I thought I'd better not so when I came back, after I had gotten back, I picked up the shells.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you said you saw the man with the gun throw the shells?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, did you see the man empty his gun?

Mr. BENAVIDES. That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember in which hand he was holding his gun?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; I sure don't.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was trying to put anything in the gun also?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. As he turned the corner he was putting another shell in his gun.

Mr. BELIN. You saw him?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I mean, he was acting like. I didn't see him actually put a shell in his gun, but he acted like he was trying to reload it.

Maybe he was trying to take out another shell, but he could have been reloading it or something.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you now, I would like to have you relate again the action of the man with the gun as you saw him now.

Mr. BENAVIDES. As I saw him, I really--I mean really got a good view of the man after the bullets were fired, he had just turned. He was just turning away.

In other words, he was pointing toward the officer, and he had just turned away to his left, and then he started. There was a big tree, and it seemed like he started back going to the curb of the street and into the sidewalk, and then he turned and went down the sidewalk to, well, until he got in front of the corner house, and then he turned to the left there and went on down Patton Street.

Mr. BELIN. When he got in front of the corner, when you say he turned to his left, did he cut across the yard of the house, or did he go clear to the corner and turn off?

Mr. BENAVIDES. There is a big bush and he catty-cornered across the yard.

Mr. BELIN. He kitty-cornered across the yard?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. In other words, he didn't go all the way on the sidewalk. He just cut across the yard.

Mr. BELIN. Where was he when you saw him throwing shells? Had he already started across the yard?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir. He had just got back to the sidewalk when he threw the first one and when he threw the second one, he had already cut back into the yard. He just sort of cut across.

Mr. BELIN. Now you saw him throw two shells?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You saw where he threw the shells?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you later go back in that area and try and find the shells?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. Well, right after that I went back and I knew exactly where they was at, and I went over and picked up one in my hand, not thinking and I dropped it, that maybe they want fingerprints off it, so I took out an empty pack of cigarettes I had and picked them up with a little stick and put them in this cigarette package; a chrome looking shell.

Mr. BELIN. A chrome looking shell?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About how long did it take you to locate the shells once you started looking for them?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Just a minute. I mean not very long at all. Just walked directly to them.

Mr. BELIN. You saw where he had thrown them?

Mr. BENAVIDES. One of them went down inside of a bush, and the other one was by the bush.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him after he turned the corner of the house?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he threw any--you said you heard three shots. Do you know whether or not he threw other shells there?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you look at all there?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; I didn't bother to look there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him when he cut across the yard? Did he go between the bushes to get to the sidewalk on Patton Street, or do you know?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Between the house and the bush; yes, sir. He had to cut across the yard, because there was a big bush on the corner there.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of about the man after you saw him? What was he wearing? What did he look like?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, he was kind of, well, just about your size.

Mr. BELIN. About my size? I am standing up.

Mr. BENAVIDES. You are about 5' 10"?

Mr. BELIN. I am between 5' 10" and 5' 11". Closer to 5' 11", I believe.

Mr. BENAVIDES. I would say he was about your size, and he had a light-beige jacket, and was lightweight.

Mr. BELIN. Did it have buttons or a zipper, or do you remember?

Mr. BENAVIDES. It seemed like it was a zipper-type jacket.

Mr. BELIN. What color was the trousers?

Mr. BENAVIDES. They were dark.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of shirt he had on?

Mr. BENAVIDES. It was dark in color, but I don't remember exactly what color.

Mr. BELIN. Was he average weight, slender, or heavy?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I would say he was average weight.

Mr. BELIN. What color hair did he have?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Oh, dark. I mean not dark.

Mr. BELIN. Black hair?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No. Not black or brown, just kind of a----

Mr. BELIN. My color hair?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You say he is my size, my weight, and my color hair?

Mr. BENAVIDES. He kind of looks like--well, his hair was a little bit curlier.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about him that looked like me.

Mr. BENAVIDES. No, that is all.

Mr. BELIN. What about his skin? Was he fair complexioned or dark complexioned?

Mr. BENAVIDES. He wasn't dark.

Mr. BELIN. Average complexion?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; a little bit darker than average.

Mr. BELIN. My complexion?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I wouldn't say that any more. I would say he is about your complexion, sir. Of course he looked, his skin looked a little bit ruddier than mine.

Mr. BELIN. His skin looked ruddier than mine?

I might say for the record, that I was not in Dallas on November 22, 1963.

Mr. BENAVIDES. No, just your size.

Mr. BELIN. Did he look like me?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; your face, not your face, but just your size.

Mr. BELIN. Okay, well, I thank you. I was flying from St. Louis to Des Moines, Iowa, at about this time.

Is there anything else?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I remember the back of his head seemed like his hairline was sort of--looked like his hairline sort of went square instead of tapered off, and he looked like he needed a haircut for about 2 weeks, but his hair didn't taper off, it kind of went down and squared off and made his head look flat in back.

Mr. BELIN. When you put these two shells that you found in this cigarette package, what did you do with them?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I gave them to an officer.

Mr. BELIN. That came out to the scene shortly after?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the name of the officer?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir; I didn't even ask him. I just told him that this was the shells that he had fired, and I handed them to him. Seemed like he was a young guy, maybe 24.

Mr. BELIN. How old would you say the man that you saw with gun was?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I figured he was around 25.

Mr. BELIN. When the officers came out there, did you tell them what you had seen?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I left right after. I give the shells to the officer. I turned around and went back and we returned to work.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? Did the officers ever get in touch with you?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Later on that evening, about 4 o'clock, there was two officers came by and asked for me, Mr. Callaway asked me--I had told them that I had seen the officer, and the reporters were there and I was trying to hide from the reporters because they will just bother you all the time.

Then I found out that they thought this was the guy that killed the President. At the time I didn't know the President was dead or he had been shot. So I was just trying to hide from the reporters and everything, and these two officers came around and asked me if I'd seen him, and I told him yes, and told them what I had seen, and they asked me if I could identify him, and I said I don't think I could.

At this time I was sure, I wasn't sure that I could or not. I wasn't going to say I could identify and go down and couldn't have.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever take you to the police station and ask you if you could identify him?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; they didn't.

Mr. BELIN. You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was Oswald?

Mr. BENAVIDES. From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. Were they newspaper pictures or television pictures, or both, or neither?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, television pictures and newspaper pictures. The thing lasted about a month, I believe, it seemed like.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon.

Mr. BENAVIDES. I showed--I believe they showed pictures of him every day for a long time there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to anyone at all there that witnessed what was going on?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; sure didn't. There was people that asked me what happened, came up in the crowd there and asked me what happened, and I said just the policeman got shot.

Mr. BELIN. You talked to Ted Callaway, did you?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; afterward. You know, I told your--I told him, he asked me when we went, when Ted Callaway got around there, he opened the car door and picked up the phone and called in and told them there was an officer that had been killed. But the officer on the other side of the radio told him to hang up the phone to keep the lines clear, or something of that sort.

Then he jumped out and ran around and he asked me did I see what happened, and I said yes. And he said let's chase him, and I said no.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you say "No"?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, he was reaching down and getting the gun out of the policeman's hand, and I didn't think he should bother to go like that. So he then turned around and went to the cab that was sitting on the corner.

Mr. BELIN. This cab?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. There was a cab sitting--oh, there isn't a sidewalk on Patton Street. I mean there is sidewalks, but not a curb, and this cab had pulled in there by the stop sign.

Mr. BELIN. Which way was the cab headed on Patton Street?

Mr. BENAVIDES. It was headed north on Patton Street.

Mr. BELIN. Was it on the south side of 10th or the north side of 10th when it was parked there?

Mr. BENAVIDES. It would be on the south side of 10th.

Mr. BELIN. Was it on the east side of Patton or the west?

Mr. BENAVIDES. It would be on the east side of Patton.

Mr. BELIN. How close to the sidewalk on East 10th would the front part of the cab have been?

Mr. BENAVIDES. The front part of the cab was, I would say, maybe 5 or 6 feet from the corner.

Mr. BELIN. From the corner?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BENAVIDES. He was sort of, if it had been a curb there, he would be up on the curb.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BENAVIDES. And so Ted then got in the taxicab and the taxicab came to a halt and he asked me which way he went. I told him he went down Patton Street toward the office, and come to find out later Ted had already seen him go by there.

Mr. BELIN. Did Ted tell you later he had seen him go by?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes; then we had a colored porter that said he had seen him go by.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be Sam Guinyard?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did Ted say whether or not he had gone down to the police station to try to identify the man?

Mr. BENAVIDES. After that--After I left that evening, I took off kind of early because I was so shookup that I couldn't work, and so when I say early, I usually work to 9 or 10 or 11 o'clock, at night. So I'd taken off early and the next day the kid told me that he went down there. I think it was the next day, or the day after.

Well, it was the next day he told me that they went down and identified him as the guy that came by the carlot.

Mr. BELIN. Ted told you the next day at work that he had gone down and identified him?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes; I don't know if Ted told me, but somebody told me.

Mr. BELIN. Ted worked at Dootch Motors at the same time?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What does he do there?

Mr. BENAVIDES. General manager.

Mr. BELIN. Used-car place?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to go down and get some clothing and see if you can identify it and I will be back in 1 minute.

Mr. BENAVIDES. Okay.

Mr. BELIN. I am handing you a jacket which has been marked as "Commission's Exhibit 163," and ask you to state whether this bears any similarity to the jacket you saw this man with the gun wearing?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I would say this looks just like it. Looks like he had laundried it, but it looks like it was a newer coat than that.

Mr. BELIN. I am handing you what has been marked "Commission's Exhibit 150," and see if this looks anything like the shirt that he had on?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I think the shirt looked darker than that.

Mr. BELIN. The shirt was darker?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I couldn't tell at the time because he had the jacket on there. That was a waist-type jacket, wasn't it?

Mr. BELIN. Yes; anything else you can think of.

Mr. BENAVIDES. Not offhand, except later on, I don't know if I seen it on television but I believe I seen it on television where they was arresting him, the policeman from the theater. But it didn't seem like he had a jacket on there.

Mr. BELIN. When he was being arrested you say he didn't have a jacket on? Now at the time you saw him, did he have a jacket on?

Mr. BENAVIDES. He had a jacket on and it looked like that jacket there.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; I guess that is all I can think of right now.

I think there was another car that was in front of me, a red Ford, I believe. I didn't know the man, but I guess he was about 25 or 30, and he pulled over. I didn't never see him get out of his car, but when he heard the scare, I guess he was about six cars from them, and he pulled over, and I don't know if he came back there or not.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. BENAVIDES. That would be all. I think if anybody had seen anything really closeup, that he must have fired just as they got past him, and they must have seen him standing there, because he was right directly in front of me. And whenever you see a squad car parked like that, you think something is wrong. At least that is what comes to my mind.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. BENAVIDES. That is all I can think of right now that I can remember.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon?

Mr. BENAVIDES. That is all I can think of right now that I can remember.

Mr. BELIN. You and I never met before today, did we, except that one day when we were around to see Ted Callaway and he introduced you at Dootch Motors and we chatted for 3 or 4 minutes there?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes; you and two other men.

Mr. BELIN. Today when we met, you came up here and what is the facts as to whether I asked you before the court reporter was able to get here to just relate to me what happened, or did I start questioning you or try to tell you things as I saw them?

Mr. BENAVIDES. So; you just asked me what happened and I described to you what happened.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything you said before the court reporter got here that is different in anyway that you said after the court reporter started taking your testimony?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Maybe now only in the change of time, or I imagine I added a little bit since she was here.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that would be at variance with what you told me before the court reporter got here?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, I don't understand.

Mr. BELIN. What I mean is, is there anything that you said before the court reporter got here that you haven't included after the court reporter got here?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Anything you have said in front of the court reporter that has been different insofar as being a fact which is opposite or different in anyway from what you told me before?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Different in wording but----

Mr. BELIN. But are the facts different?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; I don't believe the facts are different.

Mr. BELIN. Now you have a right, if you want to, to come back and read the deposition and sign it, or you can just rely on the court reporter's accuracy and waive the signing of it. Do you want to waive it or not?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I would like to read it.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BENAVIDES. Maybe I could add something I didn't add.

Mr. BELIN. All right, I will ask the court reporter to try and get in touch with you.

Mr. BENAVIDES. 3112 June Drive.

Mr. BELIN. She can reach you at Dootch Motors?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Dootch Motors.

Mr. BELIN. What is the address?

Mr. BENAVIDES. 501 East Jefferson.

Mr. BELIN. You did get notice of the taking of this deposition here today?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You are here voluntarily appearing in front of the Commission?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we surely appreciate all of the cooperation you have shown here, sir, and if there is anything else that you think is important, we would appreciate your getting in touch with us.

Mr. BENAVIDES. That is the reason I wanted to read this, in case I might have left out something.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please thank whoever is the general manager at Dootch Motors for letting you come here and appear before us?

Mr. BENAVIDES. That is Mr. Harris.

Mr. BELIN. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. CHARLIE VIRGINIA DAVIS

The testimony of Mrs. Charlie Virginia Davis was taken at 9 a.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney. 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Davis, would you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn, please? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. DAVIS. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the court reporter?

Mrs. DAVIS. Mrs. Charlie Virginia Davis.

Mr. BELIN. You are known as Mrs. Charles Davis?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Your first name is Virginia?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mrs. Davis?

Mrs. DAVIS. Athens.

Mr. BELIN. In Texas?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mrs. DAVIS. Sixteen.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you lived in Athens?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, about 6 months. It was after the President was shot.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember when the President was shot?

Mrs. DAVIS. On November 22.

Mr. BELIN. About how long after that did you move to Athens?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was about 2 weeks after the President was shot.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Davis, how long have you been married?

Mrs. DAVIS. Seven months.

Mr. BELIN. Any children?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. The time you moved to Athens would have been sometime in December of 1963?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Prior to that time, had you always lived in Dallas?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, after I got married we moved to Dallas and we lived there ever since.

Mr. BELIN. When you got married, you moved to Dallas. Before you got married, where did you live?

Mrs. DAVIS. Palestine.

Mr. BELIN. Is that in Texas?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you raised there?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; I was raised in Athens.

Mr. BELIN. You were raised in Athens. Did you go to school in Athens?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; I went to school in Palestine.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?

Mrs. DAVIS. The ninth grade.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever been employed at all?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mrs. Davis, where were you living when you were living in Dallas in November of 1963?

Mrs. DAVIS. 400 East 10th Street.

Mr. BELIN. Is that 400 East 10th?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what cross-street runs at 10th there?

Mrs. DAVIS. Patton.

Mr. BELIN. 10th and Patton?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of house did you live in? Was it a brick or frame home?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was a frame apartment house.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was a frame apartment house.

Mr. BELIN. A frame apartment house. You and your husband lived in one apartment?

Mrs. DAVIS. And my sister and her husband lived in another one.

Mr. BELIN. There were two apartments there?

Mrs. DAVIS. On the bottom floor.

Mr. BELIN. What is your sister's name?

Mrs. DAVIS. Mrs. Barbara Jeanette Davis.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what her husband's name is?

Mrs. DAVIS. Troy Lee Davis.

Mr. BELIN. Taking you back to the afternoon of November 22, do you remember anything out of the ordinary that happened on that date?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, the boy that was known as Lee Harvey Oswald shot J. D. Tippit.

Mr. BELIN. Well, now, did you see him shoot J. D. Tippit?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; we didn't see. Yes; we heard the shot. He had already shot him.

Mr. BELIN. You say you heard a shot?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you heard the shot?

Mrs. DAVIS. I was over at my sister-in-law's.

Mr. BELIN. Her apartment?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where in her apartment were you?

Mrs. DAVIS. I was in the living room.

Mr. BELIN. You were in the living room?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. We was lying down.

Mr. BELIN. You were lying down in the living room on the sofa bed, or what?

Mrs. DAVIS. It is a bed against the wall and a sofa.

Mr. BELIN. Who was lying down?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, Jeanette was lying on the bed. I was lying on the couch, and Annette and James Lee were lying on the other bed.

Mr. BELIN. Are these other people children of your sister's?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About how old are those children?

Mrs. DAVIS. James will be 6 and then Annette is 5.

Mr. BELIN. Now as you were lying down, what did you see or hear?

Mrs. DAVIS. We just heard a shot.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?

Mrs. DAVIS. We heard the first one and then we thought maybe someone had a blowout like a tire or something and we didn't get up to see. Then we heard the second shot and that is when we ran to the front door.

Mr. BELIN. Well, now, does that mean that you heard two shots?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Are you sure there were not more than two, or are you sure that you heard two?

Mrs. DAVIS. We just heard two.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, Mrs. Markham was trying to say----

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Markham?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what her first name is?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. I just know her by Mrs. Markham.

Mr. BELIN. Had you ever known her before?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How did you know it was Mrs. Markham?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, it said in the paper that it was Mrs. Markham, and my sister-in-law said it was Mrs. Markham. My sister-in-law knows Mrs. Markham.

Mr. BELIN. Now you heard the shots. You heard, you say, the second shot and then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. We was already up. We ran to the door.

Mr. BELIN. By we, who do you mean?

Mrs. DAVIS. Jeanette and I.

Mr. BELIN. You went to which door?

Mrs. DAVIS. The front door.

Mr. BELIN. That would be the front of the house facing East 10th Street?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the door?

Mrs. DAVIS. Mrs. Markham was standing at the tree.

Mr. BELIN. If we can picture the street intersection, was she standing in the middle of the street or on the sidewalk?

Mrs. DAVIS. She was on the sidewalk.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Your house would be located at the southeast corner of the intersection, is that where it is, or not?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Would she be standing on a corner that would be right across 10th Street but on the same side of Patton, or across Would it be catty-cornered or would it be across 10th Street but on the other side? Maybe we can draw it here on a little paper.

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't remember it too good.

Mr. BELIN. Now I have drawn on a piece of paper here a street intersection and this is Patton and here is 400 East 10th, which would be your house. Do you want to mark here where you think you saw Mrs. Markham?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, she was standing on the sidewalk right here. Do you want to put an "X" there?

Mr. BELIN. Please put an "X" there.

Mrs. DAVIS. (Marks "X".)

Mr. BELIN. I'm going to call that Virginia Davis Deposition, Exhibit 1. What was Mrs. Markham saying, or did you hear her say anything?

Mrs. DAVIS. We heard her say "He shot him. He is dead. Call the police."

Mr. BELIN. Was she saying this in a soft or loud voice?

Mrs. DAVIS. She was screaming it.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you saw a boy. Do you know how old he was?

Mrs. DAVIS. He didn't look like he was over 20.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what color hair he had?

Mrs. DAVIS. Let's see, the best I recall, he had sort of light brown.

Mr. BELIN. Light brown hair?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was he tall or short or average height?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was about average height.

Mr. BELIN. Fat, thin, or average weight?

Mrs. DAVIS. Slim.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon?

Mrs. DAVIS. Slim.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he had on?

Mrs. DAVIS. He had on a light-brown-tan jacket.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what color his trousers were?

Mrs. DAVIS. I think they were black. Brown jacket and trousers.

Mr. BELIN. The trousers were black?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of shirt he had on?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; I don't recall that.

Mr. BELIN. Was the jacket open or closed up?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was open.

Mr. BELIN. But you don't remember what kind of shirt he had on?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did he look at you?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; not that I remember. I don't think so.

Mr. BELIN. And where was he when you first saw him?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was cutting across our yard.

Mr. BELIN. In what direction was he walking?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was walking----

Mr. BELIN. Away from Patton or towards Patton?

Mrs. DAVIS. Towards Patton.

Mr. BELIN. When you first saw him, had he gotten up to your yard yet or not?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; he was cutting over across our yard.

Mr. BELIN. He was cutting across your walk that leads up to the front door?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About how far from the main sidewalk on East 10th was he?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was about 3 feet.

Mr. BELIN. About 3 feet or so?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; when I first saw him.

Mr. BELIN. Then he was cutting across your sidewalk about 3 feet away from the main sidewalk?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then did you see him--how long did you see him? Where did you see him go?

Mrs. DAVIS. We saw him go around the corner of our house.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you see him go?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, when he disappeared around that corner, that is the last we saw of him.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him go through any bushes by your house or not? Or didn't you see him?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You mean you didn't see him?

Mrs. DAVIS. We saw him when he cut across our yard.

Mr. BELIN. Where was he when you last saw him? He was--was he still in your yard, or was he on the sidewalk on Patton Street?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was still in our yard.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. We already called the police.

Mr. BELIN. You called the police before you saw him?

Mrs. DAVIS. When Mrs. Markham was standing across the street hollering, she told us to call the police, so Jeanette and I went in there, and Jeanette called the police and we went back and he was cutting across our yard, and we gave him time to go on because we were afraid he might shoot us.

Mr. BELIN. Did you call the police before or after you saw him cut across your yard?

Mrs. DAVIS. Before.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, to your--to the best of your recollection, you heard the shots, you ran outside, you saw Mrs. Markham--did you see anything else when you saw Mrs. Markham?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; we just saw a police car sitting on the side of the road.

Mr. BELIN. Where was the police car parked?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was parked between the hedge that marks the apartment house where he lives in and the house next door.

Mr. BELIN. Was it on your side of East 10th or the other side of the street?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was on our side, the same side that we lived on.

Mr. BELIN. Was it headed as you looked to the police car, towards your right or towards your left?

Mrs. DAVIS. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any police officer in a police car when you first saw him?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When your sister went to call the police, did you go with her, or did you stay by the front door?

Mrs. DAVIS. I went with her.

Mr. BELIN. What did you hear your sister do?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, she called the police and told whoever answered the phone that there had been a murder out in front of our house, to come quick.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did she do?

Mrs. DAVIS. She hung up and then we went back to the front door and told the two kids to stay indoors.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. Then we went out in the front yard and right down to the police car and that is when we saw the policeman lying on the street.

Mr. BELIN. Where was the policeman lying?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was lying just, well, he was half between the front end of his car and, well, his head was lying toward the front end of it.

Mr. BELIN. Was he on the driver's side of the front or on the other side?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was on the driver's side.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, as I understand your testimony, after you made the call, you went out to the front yard, is that it?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You then went out to see the policeman in the street?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you went out in the front yard, were you in the front yard when the man was going by there?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; he had already gone when we went outside.

Mr. BELIN. He had already gone when you went outside?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I thought you said that when you went outside you went on the sidewalk?

Mrs. DAVIS. See, all the people had already--see, he was already gone.

Mr. BELIN. Had he gone by at that time?

Mrs. DAVIS. By the time we got back from off the phone, he had already gone. He had already disappeared behind the corner of our house.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him going in front of your house before you called on the phone?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. When we heard the second shot, we ran to the front door, and that is when we saw the boy cutting across the yard.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let me see if I understand your statement now. You went to the front door after you heard the second shot?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the front door? Did you open the front door, or not?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; we just looked through the front door.

Mr. BELIN. You looked through the front door?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was there a screen door on it or not?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was a screen door.

Mr. BELIN. Were you looking through the screen door, or was the screen door partially open, if you remember.

Mrs. DAVIS. It was closed. We was looking through it.

Mr. BELIN. You were looking through the screen door?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you in front of your sister-in-law, or was she in front of you?

Mrs. DAVIS. She was in front of me.

Mr. BELIN. You were both looking through the screen door?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see when you looked through the screen door?

Mrs. DAVIS. We saw a boy walking, cutting across our yard.

Mr. BELIN. Where was he when you first saw him?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was about 3 feet from the sidewalk. Not the one that comes up to our front door, but the other sidewalk.

Mr. BELIN. He was about 3 feet from the front sidewalk on East 10th?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Had he come up to your sidewalk yet that comes up from East 10th to your front door?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, he had already. He was about half on the concrete, I think.

Mr. BELIN. He was half on that concrete?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you watch this man do?

Mrs. DAVIS. We watched him unload the shells out of his gun.

Mr. BELIN. What hand was he holding this gun in?

Mrs. DAVIS. In the right.

Mr. BELIN. He was holding the gun in his right hand, if you remember?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What was he doing with his left hand?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was emptying the shells in his left hand.

Mr. BELIN. Was the gun broken open, so to speak? In other words. I don't know if you have ever seen a capgun. When you want to load the capgun, you have to kind of break it apart on a hinge.

Was the gun broken apart like that, or was the barrel straight?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was like the real gun, little one.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean it was just like?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was just as best as I can remember, it was a little pistol, and he was emptying the shells. Where the shell was coming out, he was emptying the shells into his left hand.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see what he did with the shells when he emptied them into his left hand?

Mrs. DAVIS. After we, well, he was dropping them on the ground because we found two.

Mr. BELIN. You said that you found two? Did you see him drop them on the ground or not?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; we didn't see him.

Mr. BELIN. You just saw him emptying shells in his hand?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't actually see what he did with them when he got them in his hand, did you?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head no?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see the man do?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, he just cut across. He disappeared from behind the corner of the house.

Mr. BELIN. Going toward what street?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, going toward Jefferson Street.

Mr. BELIN. He was headed on Patton in the direction toward Jefferson?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him actually get to Patton Street?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; he was already around the corner.

Mr. BELIN. You saw him go around the corner of your home?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do or see then?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we just went out, because we had already called the police, notified them, and we went out in the yard.

Mr. BELIN. You notified the police. Let me ask you this. Did you notify the police before or after you saw the boy with the gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. Let's see, I think it was before.

Mr. BELIN. When you say before, what do you mean?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, before we saw the boy.

Mr. BELIN. Before you saw the boy you notified the police?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let me try and reconstruct your actions then. You heard the shots?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You ran to the door?

Mr. BELIN. What did you see when you got to the door?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we just saw, you know, the police car parked down there and we wondered what was going on, so we heard Mrs. Markham across the street calling.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, she told us to call the police, well, so went to the house. We was already in the house, and we went to the phone and called the police.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. Then we went back to the front door.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. We saw the boy cutting across the street.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do or see?

Mrs. DAVIS. After he disappeared around the corner we ran out in the front yard and down to see what had happened.

Mr. BELIN. Then is that when you saw the policeman?

Mrs. DAVIS. I saw the policeman lying on the street.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Did you see or do anything else? Did you see anyone else that you know come up to the policeman?

Mrs. DAVIS. No sir; there was a lot of people around there.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about what time of day this was?

Mrs. DAVIS. I wouldn't say for sure. But it was about 1:30, between 1:30 and 2.

Mr. BELIN. All right, after this, did police come out there?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; they was already there.

Mr. BELIN. By the time you got out there?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we just stood out there and watched. You know, tried to see how it all happened. But we saw part of it.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. We stood out there until after the ambulance had come and picked him up.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. And we stood out there and talked to this woman who told us that President Kennedy was shot.

Mr. BELIN. About what?

Mrs. DAVIS. This woman had told us that President Kennedy was shot.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. When the police cars was circling all the blocks, about four or five blocks to see if they could find the boy, and we stayed out there all that time to see if they would locate him.

Mr. BELIN. All right, did you tell the police, that you had seen anyone with a gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir; we told them that we saw a boy carrying a gun.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, that was----

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever go down to the police station or identify him?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir; we had to identify him in the lineup.

Mr. BELIN. What day was that? This same day or another day?

Mrs. DAVIS. Same day.

Mr. BELIN. About what time of the day was it?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was probably about 5:30.

Mr. BELIN. Who went down with you?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, let's see, my sister-in-law.

Mr. BELIN. That would be Barbara Jeanette Davis?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir; and her husband Troy Lee and myself.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the police station?

Mrs. DAVIS. We stayed there until this detective, some man walked up to us and led us to this dark room.

Mr. BELIN. Before they led you to the dark room, did he show you any pictures of anyone?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Had you seen any pictures on television of anyone that might be the man you saw walking with the gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Had you watched television at all?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; we didn't watch television.

Mr. BELIN. Had you seen any newspapers that afternoon?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; we didn't get the newspapers until that following morning.

Mr. BELIN. All right, you went with the detective to a dark room?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the dark room?

Mrs. DAVIS. He told us to sit down.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mrs. DAVIS. And then these five boys, or men walked up on this platform, and he was No. 2.

Mr. BELIN. You say he was No. 2. Who was No. 2?

Mrs. DAVIS. The boy that shot Tippit.

Mr. BELIN. You mean the man--did you see him shoot Tippit? Or you mean the man you saw with the gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. The man I saw carrying the gun.

Mr. BELIN. Was he white or a Negro man?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was white.

Mr. BELIN. Were all the men in the lineup white men or some Negroes?

Mrs. DAVIS. All of them were white.

Mr. BELIN. Could you describe any other people in the lineup as to whether they might be fat or thin or short or tall?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, one of them was sort, well, he was tall and slim. And then the other one there, he was sort of chubby and he was short. Then this other one, he was about the same height as the other one, the last one I told you about, short and chubby. And the other one was about--medium tall.

Mr. BELIN. Now you identified someone in that lineup?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear your sister-in-law identify him first, or not?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; I identified him first.

Mr. BELIN. Where was your sister when you identified him?

Mrs. DAVIS. She was sitting right next to me.

Mr. BELIN. How did you identify him? Did you yell that this is the man I saw?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; I just leaned over and told the detective it was No. 2.

Mr. BELIN. Where was the detective? Was he to your right or to your left?

Mrs. DAVIS. Let's see, to my right.

Mr. BELIN. Where was your sister, to your right or to your left?

Mrs. DAVIS. Right.

Mr. BELIN. As she was to your right, so you leaned over to the detective and told the detective it was No. 2?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can think of that happened that day?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Later did you ever see a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald on television?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When did you first see it on television?

Mrs. DAVIS. When they was bringing him out of the jail out here.

Mr. BELIN. When?

Mrs. DAVIS. When they were bringing him out of the jail.

Mr. BELIN. You mean Sunday when he got shot?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did this look, could you tell whether this was the same man you saw running with the gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. I wouldn't say for sure.

Mr. BELIN. You mean from seeing his picture on television?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What about the man you identified as No. 2? Would you say for sure that he was the man you saw running with the gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. I would say that was him for sure.

Mr. BELIN. What you are saying is that you couldn't necessarily tell from the television picture?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. Our television was blurred anyway, so we couldn't hardly tell.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember that you signed a statement when you were down at the Dallas Police Department at all, or not?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Virginia Davis Deposition, Exhibit 2, and ask you to state if this is your signature on here?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, Sir.

Mr. BELIN. Would you read the contents of your deposition Exhibit 2, and I will ask you if there is anything there that is inaccurate.

(Reads statement.)

Mr. BELIN. You have read Exhibit 2?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything in that statement that is inaccurate in any way?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Is that what you told the police of Dallas on November 22, 1963?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Now on this statement it says that you heard a shot and then another shot and ran to the side door at Patton Street. Was that the side door or front door?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was the front door.

Mr. BELIN. Then it says, "I saw the boy cutting across our yard and he was unloading his gun." Is that correct?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Then it says, "We walked outside and a woman was hollering, 'He's dead, he's dead, he's shot.'" Is that right?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Then it says, "This woman told Jeanette to call the police and she did." Is that what happened?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. It says, "I saw the officer that had been shot lying on 10th Street after Jeanette had called the police." Is that right?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Now it says, "Jeanette found a empty shell that the man had unloaded and gave it to the police." Did you see Jeanette find that shell?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. I was right along behind her.

Mr. BELIN. Where did she find it?

Mrs. DAVIS. She found it beside, well, the apartment was facing this way.

Mr. BELIN. Facing Patton Street?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. And we was already outside. We thought maybe we could find some evidence for the police. So we went through the hedge, and by my front door of the apartment where we live, right there in the grass where he dropped them.

Mr. BELIN. Had the police started to search around your house yet when they found it?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; they already started to search.

Mr. BELIN. Would this have been to the side of the house or the corner of the house that you found, that Jeanette found that shell?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was by the side.

Mr. BELIN. This would have been by the side of the house that is next to Patton Street?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About how far from the front of the house would it be?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was about 5 feet.

Mr. BELIN. About 5 feet. You saw Jeanette find the shell? You saw her pick it up from the ground?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What color was it, do you remember?

Mrs. DAVIS. The best I can recall, it was gray, one of these----

Mr. BELIN. The best you can recall, it was gray?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did Jeanette do with it?

Mrs. DAVIS. She gave it to some detective.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see her find any other shells?

Mrs. DAVIS. I found one after Jeanette, after all the police had gone.

Mr. BELIN. When did you find yours?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was about 10 minutes after all the police had gone.

Mr. BELIN. Was that before or after you went down to the police station?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was before.

Mr. BELIN. About when before?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, I would say it was about 2:30, or 4.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Davis, when did you say you found this other shell?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was about 4.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see or know of anyone else finding any other shell?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; not that I remember.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what you did with your shell when you found it?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, before I picked it up, this boy told me that was walking along with us helping us find, see if we could find anything for evidence, he told me the police would get me if I picked it up by my fingers, and take fingerprints, and I got scared and ran to the house and got a Kleenex tissue and brought back outside and wrapped the shell in.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with it when you wrapped the shell up?

Mrs. DAVIS. Jeanette took it and put it in her apartment up on the mantle-board.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mrs. DAVIS. Then about 5:30 the same day the police called and wanted us to come down and identify him in the lineup.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do with the shell?

Mrs. DAVIS. I gave it to the police.

Mr. BELIN. Did you give it to him at your house or down at the police station?

Mrs. DAVIS. They come and picked us up.

Mr. BELIN. You gave it to the officer that came to pick you up?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what his name was, or not?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now in your statement, Virginia Davis Deposition Exhibit 2, now you state that, "Jeanette found an empty shell that the man had unloaded and gave it to the police. After the police had left I found a empty shell in our yard." Is this the same shell you gave to Detective Dhority? Does the name Detective Dhority sound familiar to you now, or don't you remember?

Mrs. DAVIS. I never did hear the detective called.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon?

Mrs. DAVIS. I didn't hear the detective's name called.