Chapter XIV: Part 14

Mr. BELIN. All right. So they wouldn't have been on the seventh floor?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he saw any people looking out of any other windows on the sixth floor?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He didn't say, I don't believe.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say what floor? He didn't say whether he did or did not, is that your testimony, or did he say that he did not?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe he said whether or not he saw any other people on the sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say about what he saw? Do you remember about how many people he said he saw looking out of the windows?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe he said any certain number of people.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything that he said about that?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He just said that there were some other people looking out of some windows in the same building.

Mr. BELIN. Did he specifically locate them in any way?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. All right, is there any other thing that your husband said in your presence that afternoon pertaining to this School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No; I don't believe so.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay over there?

Mrs. ROWLAND. We were there until about 2:00 or 3:00, I think.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Then we left and walked around town and tried to get a newspaper, and before we left, we knew that the President was dead.

From that--for a while, we were in a room alone with a lady who came in to testify, and said that she had seen a blond man carrying a rifle in a rifle bag, and he said that probably it couldn't have been the man he saw because the man he saw was dark-haired.

Mr. BELIN. Did this woman say where she was--where she saw the blond-haired man?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I believe she said in front of some sporting goods store. I am not certain.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say where the sporting goods store was?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Some place downtown, but I don't remember exactly.

Mr. BELIN. Was it in the immediate vicinity of the School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Meaning?

Mr. BELIN. Within a block of it?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say when she saw a blond-haired man carrying a rifle?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not positive exactly what time she said, but it was before, she said, she heard about the President being shot, and she came back there to tell them she had seen a man earlier carrying a gun in a rifle case.

Mr. BELIN. She had seen some man, that had blond hair, downtown carrying a gun in a rifle case?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. That is all she knew?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, I believe that is all she knew.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can add?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, there were two young men who came in too, and they said something about seeing a man carrying a rifle downtown. I believe they also said he was a blond man.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mrs. ROWLAND. That he was over 6 feet, and he was well built, from what they said, and that is all I know.

Mr. BELIN. What did your husband say about that?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He didn't comment, I don't think.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else that took place while you and your husband were over giving your statements, that you can think of right now? Anything else that your husband said?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then, where did you go?

Mrs. ROWLAND. We left and we walked in an easterly direction and we went to a coin shop and looked around for a while, and then I went home and he went to work.

Mr. BELIN. Where was he working?

Mrs. ROWLAND. At the Pizza Inn on West Davis. He caught a bus and went to work, and I caught a bus and went home.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? When did you see him next?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No, wait a minute, I didn't go home very soon. The bus--there was poor bus service, and I didn't go home until quite, until about 9:00, I think, and I saw him the next morning.

Mr. BELIN. Had he been contacted at the Pizza Inn later that night, do you know, or not?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't think so.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, were either you or he contacted at any time during that day by any law enforcement agency?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't think we were contacted the next day.

Mr. BELIN. That would have been Saturday?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Saturday, I know we weren't. I am not positive.

Mr. BELIN. When were you next contacted, either on that Saturday or that Sunday?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I think so. I am not positive.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you how many times after November 22 were you contacted by some law enforcement agency?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Me personally?

Mr. BELIN. You personally.

Mrs. ROWLAND. I spoke to law enforcement officers about three or four times, I think.

Mr. BELIN. About how many times in November? Once on the 22d?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. And we were contacted once Sunday morning at the Pizza Inn during November. I think it was the next Sunday.

Mr. BELIN. The 24th?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. And we were contacted one morning, I am not positive, I think it might have been that Saturday, the following Saturday, the 23d--the Saturday following the assassination, at my mother's home, and I am not positive how many times.

Mr. BELIN. Were you present at any of these times that your husband was contacted?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you present, for instance, on the Sunday morning, November 24th?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what your husband said at that time?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He repeated the statement he had made in the--well, the police officers brought a written statement and asked him if that was in general what he had to say, and he said, "Yes," and they asked him specific questions about it and he answered them.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else that was said?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe so.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything that your husband said that was not on that written statement?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not positive.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember him saying anything--do you remember him telling the police officer that the statement was correct, or do you remember him telling them anything?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; he signed. There might have been a change or two in the statement and then he signed it and said that he verified that it was correct, to the best of his knowledge.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell the police officer anything that was not on that statement that should be?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe so.

Mr. BELIN. Was he asked whether or not he saw any other people in any other windows?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe he was specifically asked that question.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell any of the police officers that he saw any people in any other windows?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not certain.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he told them, the police officers, that there was any other person on the sixth floor that he saw?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He never said that there was another person on the sixth floor, in my presence, that I can remember.

Mr. BELIN. Were you present when he was with the police officers?

Mrs. ROWLAND. At times.

Mr. BELIN. On Sunday morning, November 24th?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you personally with him throughout the time that he was with the police officers?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And he, in your presence, never said that he saw anyone on the sixth floor other than the man with the rifle?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No. He never said in my presence that there was another man other than the man with the rifle on the sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. It is a little bit like there has been asked a negative question and you don't know whether to answer yes or no to the question, is that right, Mrs. Rowland?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now were you present at any subsequent interviews that your husband had with any law enforcement agency?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I was present when Mr. Howlett came to ask, to tell him that he should go to Washington, that he wanted him to go to Washington.

Mr. BELIN. What did your husband say to that?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He said, "Okay."

Mr. BELIN. Did he talk to you, by the way, about his testimony when he got back from Washington? Did he talk to you about his testimony in front of the Commission?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. Has he ever talked to you about his testimony? Before you came down here, for instance, has he talked to you about what he said in front of the Commission?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember.

Mr. BELIN. Going back to his interview with the police, do you know how many interviews he had after the one on Sunday, November 24?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I think he had about six or eight interviews in all. I mean all inclusive.

Mr. BELIN. Would that include the one with Mr. Howlett telling him to go to Washington?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. I am not positive of the number.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. From November 24 to November 30, that week, do you know how many interviews he had?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No; I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Now, has he ever told you that he had seen anyone else on the sixth floor other than this man with the gun that you described in the southwest corner window?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Has he ever told you that he told anyone else that he saw anyone else on the sixth floor?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did your husband ever complain to you that he was being questioned too much by any law enforcement agency?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't think so, not that I remember.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever complain to you that any statement that he gave was not taken down?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any complaint that he ever made to you about law enforcement agencies?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Not about the law enforcement agencies, but in the Dallas Morning News on February 11, 14--11th or 14th, they had an article in there, and they had some things in the article that he didn't say.

Mr. BELIN. Like what?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Like that the man was good looking. I mean, because he said he couldn't recognize the man. That is what he told me.

Mr. BELIN. Apart from what the Dallas Morning News said, then, did he have any complaints about his contacts with either the FBI or Secret Service or the sheriffs office or the city police of Dallas?

Mrs. ROWLAND. None that I remember.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, you made a statement toward the beginning part of this deposition that your husband said that he had all A's, but that you knew different, because you had seen the report card.

Mrs. ROWLAND. He said he had an A average.

Mr. BELIN. But that you knew different?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, he may have had an A average overall A average, but some of his cards didn't have A's altogether.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you mentioned that he had A's and B's and some C's and some D's?

Mrs. ROWLAND. The one I saw.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what years those would have been for?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Sometimes some people are prone to exaggerate more than others, and without in any way meaning to take away from the testimony of your husband as to what he saw in the building at the time, just from your general experience, do you feel you can rely on everything that your husband says?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't feel that I can rely on everything anybody says.

Mr. BELIN. Well, this is really an unfair question for me to ask any wife about her husband, and I am not asking it very correctly, but----

Mrs. ROWLAND. At times my husband is prone to exaggerate. Does that answer it?

Mr. BELIN. I think it does.

Is there anything else you want to add to that, or not?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Usually his exaggerations are not concerned with anything other than himself. They are usually to boast his ego. They usually say that he is really smarter than he is, or he is a better salesman than he is, something like that.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you care to add?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Again, I apologize for any--for in any way trying to embarrass you or anything, but your husband did see a man on the sixth floor and it is important for us to try and find out everything we can to test his accuracy as to what he saw, and so this is why I have been asking these questions.

You and I have never met before?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I ever remember.

Mr. BELIN. When we did meet, I immediately brought you in here and we started taking your deposition under oath, isn't that true?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. We didn't chat about anything before we started taking your deposition, did we?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. Now you mentioned the fact that the newspaper misquoted your husband?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other time when you know that he complained about being misquoted insofar as the facts of the assassination are concerned?

Mrs. ROWLAND. When we had our first written statement, the police officer, I believe he was an FBI agent, restated everything we said, and it was typed in the--in that form. But he also asked if it was, if that was the general meaning of what we had said, so he didn't complain. But anyway, it wasn't in his exact words, I mean.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything inaccurate about the statement?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No; I don't think so.

Mr. BELIN. Did your husband ever make any complaints to you about anything inaccurate in any statements that he had given?

Mrs. ROWLAND. If he did, I don't remember it.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that might in any way be relevant to this whole area of inquiry?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Did you or your husband rather, ever see a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald on television?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I saw either the actual shooting on television of Mr. Oswald or either a rerun, and I saw his picture in the newspaper, but I don't know if my husband ever saw it or not.

But he did--we heard on the radio the afternoon of the assassination that Lee Harvey Oswald had been accused of the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. Did you or your husband know anyone by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you or your husband know Jack Ruby?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Not to my knowledge, I never have known him, and I don't think he has. If he has, he never told me.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we certainly appreciate your coming down here. You have been most helpful, Mrs. Rowland.

One final thing. You have an opportunity to either come back and read what the court reporter has, the transcript after it is typed, and sign it, or else you can waive coming down and taking the time to read it and sign it, and have it go directly to Washington.

Do you care to come down to read it?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. If you like to, you have every right to do so.

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; I would.

Mr. BELIN. You will be contacted then, and you can come down and read it and make any corrections, if you like.

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; could I, other than making corrections have it rewritten in better English?

Mr. BELIN. No, I'm afraid my English at times isn't very good, Mrs. Rowland, and we have to let it go the way it is right now. By corrections, I mean anything where you feel the court reporter might not have accurately transcribed the words that you and I said here.

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. If either one used bad grammar, the English teachers will have to look down their noses at us.

Thank you.

Mrs. ROWLAND. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF RONALD B. FISCHER

The testimony of Ronald B. Fischer was taken at 11:20 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Fischer, will you rise to be sworn, please, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FISCHER. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Will you please state your name?

Mr. FISCHER. Ronald B. Fischer.

Mr. BELIN. And where do you live, Mr. Fischer?

Mr. FISCHER. 4007 Flamingo Way, Mesquite, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Is this a suburb of Dallas?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. FISCHER. I'm an auditor.

Mr. BELIN. For whom?

Mr. FISCHER. Dallas County auditor.

Mr. BELIN. And where do you work?

Mr. FISCHER. I work at 407 records building.

Mr. BELIN. And where is the records building?

Mr. FISCHER. That's in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Where in Dallas?

Mr. FISCHER. It covers one square block area bounded by Main, Record, Elm, and Houston.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Mr. Fischer?

Mr. FISCHER. Twenty-five.

Mr. BELIN. Married?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Children?

Mr. FISCHER. Two.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school here in Dallas?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes--high school, yes.

Mr. BELIN. What high school did you go to?

Mr. FISCHER. W. W. Samuell.

Mr. BELIN. Did you complete high school or not?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Have you participated in any postgraduate work since you graduated from high school?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is that?

Mr. FISCHER. I've taken courses toward an accounting degree at Arlington State College, Arlington, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Are these correspondence courses or have you actually attended the school?

Mr. FISCHER. No; I've attended the school.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you attend that school?

Mr. FISCHER. I attended 1 year, full time and I attended 1 year, night school.

Mr. BELIN. And what have you done since after you left Arlington?

Mr. FISCHER. All of the time since I've left Arlington, I've been working for the Dallas County auditor--with the exception of a correspondence course that I'm taking at the present time.

Mr. BELIN. Well, by that, you mean you're still working full time but you are taking the correspondence course also?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You have been working for 4 or 5 years for the auditor's office?

Mr. FISCHER. Five years.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Fischer, I want to take you back to November 22, 1963, and ask you if you remember watching or getting ready to watch, the Presidential motorcade on that day? Do you remember that?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And were you with anyone else, or not?

Mr. FISCHER. Bob Edwards--he works in the same office that I do.

Mr. BELIN. Does he work there now?

Mr. FISCHER. No; he doesn't. At the present time, he's attending a college in Oklahoma but I don't remember the name. It's in Tahlequah, I believe. I don't know the name of the college.

Mr. BELIN. Could that be--I think it's [spelling] T-a-h-l-e-q-u-a-h?

Mr. FISCHER. I think that's it.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when did you and Mr. Edwards leave your place of employment on that day to watch the motorcade?

Mr. FISCHER. Oh, about--well, let's see. We got off for lunch at a quarter of twelve and Mr. Lynn, our boss, said that we could take--go ahead and go on down the street after we got through with lunch, in other words, don't come back to the office after lunch. Just go on down the street and watch the parade. Everybody was due back after the parade was over.

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. FISCHER. So, I went to lunch at a quarter of twelve, and ate until about 12 o'clock, and then Bob and I went down to the street--oh, 5 or 10 after 12--and we stood, at first, on Main Street right outside the records building. And then about 12:15 or 12:20, we were trying to find a place where we could see better, so we walked down to Houston and then one block down Houston to Elm and stood there until the parade came by.

Mr. BELIN. Now, do you know when you got to corner of Houston and Elm--approximately?

Mr. FISCHER. About 12:20.

Mr. BELIN. 12:20?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And where were you standing on the corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. FISCHER. We were standing right on the curb--uh--on the southwest corner of Elm and Houston.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you with relation to that lagoon that's there?

Mr. FISCHER. Well, that lagoon is rather long. We were standing in front of it, across the sidewalk. I believe it's the curb and the sidewalk and this little bit of grass, and then the lagoon. And we were standing right on the curb there.

Mr. BELIN. You were standing on the curb at about the point where the actual curve of the curb is at the intersection--or not?

Mr. FISCHER. I'd say where the curb starts to curve. Because, when the shots were fired, we looked around at the motorcade and couldn't see it--because--uh--of the people that were standing along the curb there. We just couldn't see it. Had we been on further around, we could have just looked down the street and seen it.

Mr. BELIN. So, you would have been really standing on the curb which would be the west curb of Houston Street, just where it starts to make the curve to go onto Elm there. Is that correct?

Mr. FISCHER. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, would you describe what you saw as you were standing on that curb?

Mr. FISCHER. About 10 or 15 seconds before the parade--first car of the parade came around the corner.

Mr. BELIN. Now what corner is that?

Mr. FISCHER. Of Houston and Main.

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. FISCHER. Which would have been the first time we could have seen any of the cars because of the building--about 10 or 15 seconds before the first car came around that corner, Bob punched me and said, "Look at that guy there in that window." And he made some remark--said, "He looks like he's uncomfortable"--or something.

And I looked up and I watched the man for, oh, I'd say, 10 or 15 seconds. It was until the first car came around the corner of Houston and Main. And, then, when that car did come around the corner, I took my attention off of the man in the window and started watching the parade. The man held my attention for 10 or 15 seconds, because he appeared uncomfortable for one, and, secondly, he wasn't watching--uh--he didn't look like he was watching for the parade. He looked like he was looking down toward the Trinity River and the triple underpass down at the end--toward the end of Elm Street. And--uh--all the time I watched him, he never moved his head, he never--he never moved anything. Just was there transfixed.

Mr. BELIN. In what window did you see the man?

Mr. FISCHER. It was the corner window on Houston Street facing Elm, in the fifth or sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. On what side of the--first of all, what building was this you saw him in?

Mr. FISCHER. The Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. And what side of the building would the window have been in?

Mr. FISCHER. It would have been--well, as you're looking toward the front of the building, it would have been to your right.

Mr. BELIN. Well, the building itself has four sides--a north, east, south, and a west side--the entire sides of the building. Would this have been the north, south, east, or west side of the building?

Mr. FISCHER. It would have been the south side--the entrance.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, on that south side of the building--now, was it the center part of the south side, the east part of the south side, or the west part of the south side?

Mr. FISCHER. The east part of the south side.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, with reference to the east corner of the south side there--would it have been the first window next to that corner, the second, the third, or the fourth--or what?

Mr. FISCHER. First window.

Mr. BELIN. From the east corner of the south side?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about the man? Could you describe his appearance at all? First of all, how much of him could you see?

Mr. FISCHER. I could see from about the middle of his chest past the top of his head.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. FISCHER. He was in the--as you're looking toward that window, he was in the lower right portion of the window. He seemed to be sitting a little forward.

And he had--he had on an open-neck shirt, but it--uh--could have been a sport shirt or a T-shirt. It was light in color; probably white, I couldn't tell whether it had long sleeves or whether it was a short-sleeved shirt, but it was open-neck and light in color.

Uh--he had a slender face and neck--uh--and he had a light complexion--he was a white man. And he looked to be 22 or 24 years old.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about the color of his hair?

Mr. FISCHER. His hair seemed to be--uh--neither light nor dark; possibly a light--well, possibly a--well, it was a brown was what it was; but as to whether it was light or dark, I can't say.

Mr. BELIN. Did he have a thick head of hair or did he have a receding hair-line--or couldn't you tell?

Mr. FISCHER. I couldn't tell. He couldn't have had very long hair, because his hair didn't seem to take up much space--of what I could see of his head. His hair must have been short and not long.

Mr. BELIN. Well, did you see a full view of his face or more of a profile of it, or what was it?

Mr. FISCHER. I saw it at an angle but, at the same time, I could see--I believe I could see the tip of his right cheek as he looked to my left.

Mr. BELIN. Now, could you be anything more definite as to what direction he was looking at?

Mr. FISCHER. He looked to me like he was looking straight at the triple underpass.

Mr. BELIN. Down what street?

Mr. FISCHER. Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. Down Elm?

Mr. FISCHER. Toward the end of Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. As it angles there and goes under the triple underpass there?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see his hands?

Mr. FISCHER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see whether or not he was holding anything?

Mr. FISCHER. No; I couldn't see.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see any other objects in the window?

Mr. FISCHER. There were boxes and cases stacked all the way from the bottom to the top and from the left to the right behind him. It looked--uh--it's possible that there weren't cases directly behind him because I couldn't see because of him. But--uh--all the rest of the window--a portion behind the window--there were boxes. It looked like there was space for a man to walk through there between the window and the boxes. But there were boxes in the window, or close to the window there.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see any other people in any other windows there that you remember?

Mr. FISCHER. I couldn't see any other people in the windows. I don't remember seeing any others.

Mr. BELIN. By this, do you mean that you are sure there were none, or that you just do not remember seeing any?

Mr. FISCHER. I don't remember seeing any.

Mr. BELIN. Now, after you saw the man, then the motorcade turned onto Houston from Main--is that correct?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see the man again in the window?

Mr. FISCHER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever look back at the window?

Mr. FISCHER. I never looked back at the window.

Mr. BELIN. Well, could you describe what happened as you watched the motorcade turn? First, about how fast did the motorcade appear to be going?

Mr. FISCHER. When the motorcade passed me, it was--uh--the driver was in process of making the wide turn there from Houston to Elm, and he was going very slow. I'd say, uh--10-15 miles an hour.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what happened?

Mr. FISCHER. Well, the motorcade--the limousine made the wide turn and--uh--they went out of our view just as they began to straighten up onto Elm Street because there were people standing along the curb all the way around--and that's when the limousine went out of my view and I started watching the other cars behind the Presidential limousine.

Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?

Mr. FISCHER. Well, as I looked around to watch these other cars, I heard a shot. At first I thought it was a firecracker. And--uh--everybody got quiet. There was no yelling or shouting or anything. Everything seemed to get real still. And--uh--the second shot rang out, and then everybody--from where I was standing--everybody started to scatter. And--uh--then the third shot.

At first, I thought there were four, but as I think about it more, there must have been just three.

Mr. BELIN. At first, you thought there were four shots?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you said the first one you thought was a firecracker?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What about the second one? Did you think that was a firecracker, too?

Mr. FISCHER. No. When the second shot rang out. It was too much like the first to be a firecracker. I have heard high-powered rifles fire before. The--uh--first shot fooled me, I think, because of the sound bouncing off the buildings. But the second shot was too much like the first and it was too loud--both shots were too loud to be a firecracker. And I knew it was a shot.

Mr. BELIN. Have you had any experience with high-powered rifles before?

Mr. FISCHER. Very little; but I have shot several.

Mr. BELIN. What about the third shot? Did you think that was a firecracker or what?

Mr. FISCHER. No; I knew it was a shot, too. I knew someone was shooting at something. Uh--it didn't--it still didn't dawn on me that anyone would try to shoot at the President, but I knew that somebody was shooting at something. I didn't know whether it was a real pistol or a real rifle--but I knew somebody was shooting a firearm.

Mr. BELIN. Where did the shots appear to be coming from?

Mr. FISCHER. They appeared to be coming from just west of the School Book Depository Building. There were some railroad tracks and there were some railroad cars back in there.

Mr. BELIN. And they appeared to be coming from those railroad cars?

Mr. FISCHER. Well, that area somewhere. From where I was standing, I couldn't see the cars themselves until I had run across the street and up the hill.

Mr. BELIN. The shots seemed to be how far apart?

Mr. FISCHER. That's hard to say. I've been thinking about that. And-uh--I'd guess--3 to 4 seconds.

Mr. BELIN. Was that between the first and the second or between the second and the third?

Mr. FISCHER. Between both. As far as I can remember, the shots were evenly spaced.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else about the shots that you remember?

Mr. FISCHER. No--only that they were very loud.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about the man in the window that you remember?

Mr. FISCHER. (Pausing before reply.) No.

Mr. BELIN. All right. What did you do or see or hear after you hear the shots?

Mr. FISCHER. After the second shot we, Bob and I both, started running down the sidewalk on Elm Street, on the south side of Elm, and there were still people that were milling around and shuffling around. When the second shot broke, like I say, a lot of people started running, some people still stood but a lot of people started running. Uh--and then when the third shot went off, we just almost reached the curb and then just as the limousine went under the triple underpass, we got to the street--Elm Street--where we could actually see--uh--well--where the shots had gone, and--uh--we ran across the street where there were a man, his wife and two children laying on the ground. Now, that was on the north side of Elm Street about halfway between Houston and the triple underpass and we ran down there where this man and his wife and two boys were. Someone was helping them up off the ground, and the man said at that time that the President had been shot.

And, after that, we stood there for 10 or 15 seconds and then we ran up to the top of the hill there where all the Secret Service men had run, thinking that that's where the bullets had come from since they seemed to be searching that area over there. They jumped off--out of cars and ran up the side of the hill there and onto the tracks where these passenger--freight cars were.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you remember?

Mr. FISCHER. (Pausing before reply.) No.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that, then?

Mr. FISCHER. After that, we went back up to the building where we work--the records building--and went on upstairs to the office. And that's where Bob and I separated and--he had some things to do--I think he had some stuff that had to go down to another office and he left. After we got up there, he got some paper and then left. I stayed there for a little while and----

Mr. BELIN. Well, first of all, about when did you get back to the records building do you feel?

Mr. FISCHER. Uh--it must have been 5--5 minutes after the first shot was fired. Something like that.

Mr. BELIN. All right. When you went back there, did you walk by the front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. FISCHER. No; when we went back, we came--we went back the same way we came. We went straight across Elm and then up to Houston on the south side of Elm, and then crossed.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not people were going in or coming out of the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. FISCHER. There seemed to be a lot of people around--uh--the front; but, of course, there were a lot of people all over the street.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You got back up to the building--the records building--and then what did you do?

Mr. FISCHER. Well, as I said, we went up to the fourth floor to our office. Uh--I stayed there for 5 or 10 minutes. Bob had left. And then I went next door in the purchasing department where they've got a radio. I was trying to--I didn't--I don't guess I really believed yet that it had happened--that the President had been shot. And--uh--I was trying to find out on the radio just exactly what did happen.

And I stayed in the purchasing department 5 minutes or so--well, 5 or 10 minutes, and then I went back down the hall where some people had a radio standing out in the hall. They had another station on, and still nobody knew anything.

Then, I went back to the office about--oh, maybe 5 or 10 minutes till 1, and-uh--we heard a bunch of sirens, police cars, and leaned out the window, and police cars were all surrounding the Texas School Book Depository Building. And when I saw all that and saw the detectives in the window, the officers, I knew that--I realized that the shots--that they must have the assassin in there or the man who did the shooting--or something was wrong with the building.

So, I realized then that it possibly was the man I saw since he was the only one I remember in a window and that it had something to do with the building--that it's possible that the man I saw had something to do with it.

About that time a deputy from the sheriff's office came up and asked me if I was Ronald Fischer, and I said, "Yes;" and he said that Sheriff Decker wanted to see me in his office right now.

Mr. BELIN. About what time was this now?

Mr. FISCHER. This was at--oh--1 o'clock on or about 1 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. You then went to Sheriff Decker's office?

Mr. FISCHER. I went to Decker's office and--uh--Bob Edwards was in there. He looked up--and he had given them my name and told them--at least, this is what he told me--that he told them that we had both been standing there together and had seen this man in the window of the School Book Depository Building. So, that's why they came to get me--because he had told them.

There were a lot of other people in the office--12 or 15 other people. They all seemed to be connected with it in some way or another. And I noticed, too, in Sheriff Decker's office was this man and woman and two boys that we had talked to down the street there on Elm that had hit the ground when the shots started.

Mr. BELIN. Now, this man that you saw in the window--did he appear to be standing or sitting--or couldn't you tell?

Mr. FISCHER. He must not have been standing because I don't think the floor was that far away. He could have been standing--I'll take that back. He would have had to have been crouched over. He didn't look like he was crouched over or bent over. He must have been--I'm guessing--but I'm thinking he must have been on his knees or maybe sitting, on a box maybe. But he--I don't think that it's possible that he was standing.

Mr. BELIN. Was he sitting or crouching, or whatever he was doing, in a straight-up position?

Mr. FISCHER. No; he was leaning forward slightly.

Mr. BELIN. About how far forward was he leaning--or couldn't you tell?

Mr. FISCHER. Oh, it was slightly--enough to where I could tell, but--oh--his head wasn't out of the window and his head wasn't past the window sill. If he had been much further back in, it would have been hard for me to see him at all.

Mr. BELIN. Now, sometime afterwards, you signed a written statement at the sheriff's office--is that it?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And, later, did some policemen bring out a picture of an individual and ask you to try and identify him?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did they tell you whose picture it was?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Whose picture did they say it was?

Mr. FISCHER. Well, they actually showed me two pictures--one of Lee Harvey Oswald, and one of Jack Ruby.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And what did you say?

Mr. FISCHER. I told them that that could have been the man.

Mr. BELIN. Now, which one did you say could have been the man?

Mr. FISCHER. Lee Harvey Oswald. That that could have been the man that I saw in the window of the School Book Depository Building, but that I was not sure. It's possible that a man fit the general description that I gave--but I can't say for sure.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything different--do you remember the picture?--between the picture you saw and the man you saw in the window?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes; one thing--and that is in the picture he looked like he hadn't shaved in several days at least. And--uh--I don't know whether at that distance, looking at him from the street in the School Book Depository Building--if I could have been able to--if I could have seen that. I think, if he had been unshaven in the window, it would have made his complexion appear--well--rather dark; but I remember his complexion was light; that is, unless he had just a light beard.

Mr. BELIN. Was the sun shining on his face when you saw him in the window or not--or don't you remember?

Mr. FISCHER. No; uh--no the sun wasn't shining on his face. He was back in the shadow of the window.

Mr. BELIN. When did the policeman come out with this picture--on the same day or on the next day?

Mr. FISCHER. No; it was--uh--no, it was several days after. I can't remember whether it was a week or 2 weeks or--it was at least a week. I don't remember exactly when it was but it was a week, at least.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this: Was there anything else different between the man you saw in the picture and the man you saw in the window?

Mr. FISCHER. (Pausing before reply.) No.

Mr. BELIN. What about the color of his hair? Do you remember what the color of the hair was of the man in the picture?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes; it was brown. It was a darker shade of brown but it was definitely brown.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean, "a darker shade of brown?"

Mr. FISCHER. Well, it wasn't--it wasn't--uh--well, I guess there are a lot of shades of brown. But it wasn't--uh--it wasn't a light brown. It was a--in the picture it showed up as definitely a darker brown. I can't think of anything to compare it to.

Mr. BELIN. Well, when you saw the man in the window, did he appear to have light brown hair, dark brown, medium brown--or what kind of hair did he have?

Mr. FISCHER. Well, it wasn't dark and it wasn't light. Uh--he didn't have black hair and he didn't have blonde hair. It--uh--must have been a brown but, like I say, there are a lot of different shades of brown and I'm not--I can't--it's hard for me to say just exactly what shade of brown I saw that he had. I know what shade he had in the picture but----

Mr. BELIN. Well, I hand you a copy of a statement which I believe--at least has the signature on it--and ask you to see if this looks like it's your signature?

Mr. FISCHER. [After perusing paper.] Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right. I'm going to call this "Fischer Deposition Exhibit No. 1," and ask you to read this statement, which appears to be dated November 22, 1963, and ask you to state if there's anything in that statement that does not appear to be accurate.

(Thereupon, the statement of Mr. Fischer dated Nov. 22, 1963, is identified as "Fischer Deposition Exhibit No. 1.)

Mr. FISCHER. You want me to read this now?

Mr. BELIN. You can just read it to yourself and then you can tell me when you get through whether or not there is anything in that statement that doesn't appear to be accurate.

Mr. FISCHER. [After reading Exhibit No. 1.] That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. Is this what you told these people there?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, in this statement it says that the man appeared to be in his twenties--is that what you told them?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. It says that all you could see was his head, now you've told me here today that you could see his chest?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes; from the middle of his chest up. I could see his shoulders.

Uh--the man taking that particular piece of paper was a court reporter in the records building, and he didn't--he didn't relate--he had about 12 of these things to take--well, yeah, 12 or 15--however many people there were in the sheriff's office at that time. And he was, like I say, he was in a hurry to get it down and I said I could see his head--and, so, he put that down. And that is right. I could see his head.

Mr. BELIN. The statement here says that he was light-headed and that he had on an open-neck shirt. Did he have an open-neck shirt on?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, what about being light-headed?

Mr. FISCHER. By "light-headed," I meant that he didn't have black hair. He didn't have dark--he didn't have--well, when I say "dark," I mean black. He didn't have black hair. He didn't have blonde hair. When I said, "light-headed," I didn't mean blonde--or I would have said that, but--uh.

Mr. BELIN. What color of hair did you mean? Did you say "light-headed"?

Mr. FISCHER. I believe I did say "light-headed"--because I didn't--like I say--I didn't want it to appear that he was dark.

Mr. BELIN. By "dark," what color do you mean?

Mr. FISCHER. Black.

Mr. BELIN. Well, once again, I'll ask you, to the best of your recollection, what color hair did he have?

Mr. FISCHER. Uh--like I say, it's too hard for me to--uh--to tell one way or the other. At the distance I was, uh--it's just--it's just too hard for me to--I'm not going to say it because I don't know for sure, just exactly what shade of hair he did have. It wasn't blonde and it wasn't black. Somewhere in between. And it was a shade of brown that as to whether it was a dark brown, a light brown, a medium brown, or whatever you call it--I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

The statement says that you saw him in the window there. Do you remember how far the window was open?

Mr. FISCHER. The window was open almost all the way open if not, all the way open.

Mr. BELIN. By that "all the way"--when you have a window all the way open of that kind, of course, you just have a half of the window case that is open. Is that correct?

Mr. FISCHER. That's right, You still have half an area of the opening covered by glass.

Mr. BELIN. Was it the bottom area that was open or the top area?

Mr. FISCHER. The bottom area. The window looked to be--uh--a window that raised from the bottom up.

Mr. BELIN. And it appeared to be almost as fully open as you could, or fully open?

Mr. FISCHER. Or fully open. Yes--Or I wouldn't have been able to see the cases and see past the top of his head had it not been--and his shoulders.

Mr. BELIN. Now, on this written statement it says that you remember a tall girl walking into the School Book Depository Building there at about the time you saw the man?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see such a girl walk in the building?

Mr. FISCHER. I can't remember. It must have been before. It must have been just before--uh--I saw the man in the window. I can't remember very well. It's been too long. I believe it was before I saw the man in the window that I saw her walk into the building. Like I say, I made a mental note of it but I didn't pay too much attention at the time.

Mr. BELIN. Now, sometime later, after November 22, you were interviewed by the FBI. Do you remember that?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes; in the records building.

Mr. BELIN. And did the FBI man have any pictures with him at all, or not?

Mr. FISCHER. I don't remember whether he had pictures or not. It seems like he did.

Mr. BELIN. Could you identify the man you saw in the window from any of the pictures?

Mr. FISCHER. Uh--not--in fact, I believe they asked me--I believe they did have pictures of him. It seems like I recall them asking me if it could have been the picture that they identified as Lee Harvey Oswald, or if it could have been the picture of Jack Ruby.

Mr. BELIN. Now what did you say about the Jack Ruby picture?

Mr. FISCHER. I told them that I didn't think it could be him because--uh--he didn't--he didn't have near enough hair, it didn't look like to me.

Mr. BELIN. What about his build?

Mr. FISCHER. And that, too. His face was just a little--uh--fat; whereas-uh--Oswald's picture was rather a slender face and neck.

Mr. BELIN. Did the man you saw in the window have a high forehead or a low forehead--or do you remember?

Mr. FISCHER. I can't--I can't remember seeing that--uh--that well. I don't know if I could have--if I saw it now, whether I could tell you whether he had a large forehead or not.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any estimate of how far you were from that window when you saw him?

Mr. FISCHER. Uh--from the point where I was standing when I saw him in the window to him, it must have been, I would say, at least a hundred feet.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, did you ever tell anyone, or might you have told them, that you saw this person a minute or two before you saw the motorcade, rather than as you told us here today, 15 or 20 seconds before you first saw the motorcade?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever tell anyone it was a minute or two before you saw the motorcade?

Mr. FISCHER. Well, I might have said "a minute or two" in just terms. I don't remember saying that but.

Mr. BELIN. But what is the----

Mr. FISCHER. Shortly before.

Mr. BELIN. Shortly?

Mr. FISCHER. Shortly before.

Mr. BELIN. Do you definitely remember that it was this 15 or 20 seconds or so before you saw the motorcade, or might it have been a minute or two before you saw the motorcade?

Mr. FISCHER. I don't think it was over a minute. It could--it was less than a minute--because, as I recall, that's what--that's the reason I turned my attention from him and I looked back down the street.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Is there anything else you can think of that bears on the assassination, or anything you saw or did or heard that you haven't related here?

Mr. FISCHER. (Pausing before reply.) No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you say "No"?

Mr. FISCHER. No--I can't think of anything.

Mr. BELIN. Shortly before this interview began, you and I met for the first time--is that correct?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And we first chatted a few minutes about what you saw before we started taking your testimony on the record?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not I asked you to tell me your story or whether or not, instead, I asked you questions and tried to, in any way, lead you--or so forth?

Mr. FISCHER. I answered the questions as I think that I saw the events happen--as I saw the events happen. I was not quizzed on what to say or anything of that nature. I've merely related what I think that I saw.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that you told me of before we started taking the deposition that has not been included in this deposition--that you can think of?

Mr. FISCHER. [Pausing before reply.] No; not that I can think of.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

I believe that ends the deposition.

I want to thank you for your courtesy in coming here, Mr. Fischer. We appreciate your taking the time to do it. And we would also appreciate your conveying our appreciation to the Dallas County Auditor for letting you take this time off. Will you do that, please?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes; and thank you.

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWIN EDWARDS

The testimony of Robert Edwin Edwards was taken at 11 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. EDWARDS. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Your name, please?

Mr. EDWARDS. Robert Edwin Edwards.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Edwards?

Mr. EDWARDS. Tahlequah, Okla.

Mr. BELIN. What do you do up there?

Mr. EDWARDS. I am going to school, college, Northeastern State College.

Mr. BELIN. What year of school are you in? Are you a freshman?

Mr. EDWARDS. No; I am a senior.