Chapter IX: Part 9

Mr. SPECTER. Well, is there anything, aside from what he told you, that is, anything in the characteristics of the wounds on President Kennedy and the wounds on Governor Connally which would lead you to conclude that it was not the same bullet?

Dr. SHIRES. No--there is nothing. It could have been--purely from the standpoint of the wounds, it is possible.

Mr. SPECTER. You referred just a minute ago to his turning position?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Is the postulation of a turning by Governor Connally necessary to explain the point of entry in the back, exit in the chest, entry in the wrist, and exit in the wrist, and entry into the thigh, in order to have that line--to state it differently, is it necessary to postulate turning by the Governor?

Dr. SHIRES. Depending upon the angle of the trajectory--I suppose not. I don't know what the angle of the trajectory was from where the bullet was fired.

Mr. SPECTER. Assuming an angle of declination of approximately 45 degrees?

Dr. SHIRES. This, I don't know without drawing it out, but as long as his right arm is drawn in front of him next to the exit wound on the chest, he is in a sitting position, if the angle of declination was right, then I think he could have received this facing straight forward.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, on the wrist, would that be palm of the wrist, back of the wrist, or how?

Dr. SHIRES. I don't understand.

Mr. SPECTER. In what position would the wrist have had to be in, in order to have the same bullet make all three wounds?

Dr. SHIRES. The main point was that his arm be up here. In other words, in some fashion, however his hand happened to be turned, but he had to have his right arm raised up, next to his chest.

Mr. SPECTER. His wrist would have to be up with the palm down, would it not?

Dr. SHIRES. As depicted here.

Mr. SPECTER. In order for the point of entry to be on the dorsal side?

Dr. SHIRES. That's right, again, which makes it a little more likely he was turning, since ordinarily you pronate your wrist as you turn, whereas, this would have been a little strange for him to have been sitting like this, but again, depending on what he had in his hand. It's just a question of which side is up.

Mr. SPECTER. But it would be more natural, you say, for the palm to be down in the turning, which was as contrasted with a relaxed sitting position where it would be more likely his palm would be facing in towards his chest area?

Dr. SHIRES. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge as to the damage which was done to the rib?

Dr. SHIRES. Only from hearsay from Dr. Shaw, that's all.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge as to what fragments there were in the chest, bullet fragments, if any?

Dr. SHIRES. No, again except from postoperative X-rays, there is a small fragment remaining, but the initial fragments I think Dr. Shaw saw before I arrived.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the fragments in the wrist, do you have any knowledge of that?

Dr. SHIRES. Again, there were small fragments which I saw during the procedure on the wrist, but I was not directly involved in that procedure.

Mr. SPECTER. What opinion do you have, if any, Dr. Shires, as to whether the wound in the thigh might have been inflicted from a missile that did not pass through any other part of the Governor's body, assuming that it was a 6.5-mm. bullet with a muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, traveling approximately 160 to 250 feet between the end of the weapon and the point of impact on the thigh?

Dr. SHIRES. Well, again, in that wound--it was strange in that the hole in the skin was too large for the amount of damage inflicted on the underlying tissues, so that had this been the case, this would have had to have been a tangential wound. Had it been a tangential wound, then it's possible that small fragments could have gone into bone as it did and that the damage to the soft tissues was done only by that small fragment, so that the major portion of the bullet simply hit the skin in a tangent and went on in its course elsewhere.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, is it possible that the bullet could have hit Governor Connally with the thigh being the initial point of impact and do the damage which was done there with the high velocity missile that I have just described for you?

Dr. SHIRES. Is it possible to get a wound like that?

Dr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; as long as it's on a tangent.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it likely to receive a wound like that from a high velocity weapon of 2,000 feet per second and at about 160 to 250 feet?

Dr. SHIRES. If it's a tangential wound, tangential wounds can be very strange. A large bullet can cause a small hole if its on a tangent or a small bullet can rip out a fairly large hole on a tangent. It just depends on the time of contact and the angle of contact with the skin. That's why it's awfully hard to predict.

Mr. SPECTER. So that wound could have either been the first striking of the Governor from the bullet, or it could have been from a missile whose velocity was spent after going through President Kennedy and through the Governor's body and wrist and then caused that wound in the thigh?

Dr. SHIRES. That's right, if it was a tangential bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shires, have you ever been contacted by any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was it who contacted you?

Dr. SHIRES. I don't recall the name--it was two individuals from the Secret Service. They presented their credentials at the time to the administration and then subsequently to me and they were given copies of our operative reports, statements made by people concerned with the President and Governor at the time, and then subsequently one of those same two men from Secret Service returned and charted the entrance and exit wounds which you have described previously, or we have looked at previously in these five diagrams.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been interviewed by any other representative of the Federal Government before today?

Dr. SHIRES. No; not in person. I discussed over the phone with the FBI--well, that was with regard to Oswald. I discussed over the phone what happened to the bullet that was taken from Oswald, but not with regard to the President or the Governor--no.

Mr. SPECTER. On your prior interviews by the Secret Service, sir, did they cover the same subjects which you and I have gone over today, or were other subjects covered?

Dr. SHIRES. No; essentially the same subjects.

Mr. SPECTER. And was any different information given to you by the Secret Service at that time of either of those two occasions?

Dr. SHIRES. No; the same as we have discussed here.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, prior to the time when you were sworn in and the court reporter started to take the deposition in shorthand form, did you and I have a brief discussion about the purpose of the deposition and the subject matters of interest to the Commission?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And was the same information given by you to me during the course of that informal discussion as you have testified to on the record here this afternoon?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; in less detail.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you have anything which you would care to add which you think might be helpful to the Commission in its work?

Dr. SHIRES. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, fine, that concludes the deposition, thank you very much, Dr. Shires.

Dr. SHIRES. Are you interested in Oswald--that's my only other question?

Mr. SPECTER. Well, let's talk about it a little off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and witness Dr. Shires off the record at this point.)

Mr. SPECTER. Let's go back on the record. Dr. Shires, before concluding the deposition, permit me to ask you just a few additional questions about care for Lee Harvey Oswald.

First of all, I again show you Commission exhibit No. 392, the last two pages which purport to be an operative record of Parkland Memorial Hospital on November 24, 1963, concerning treatment of Mr. Oswald, with you listed as the surgeon, and I'll ask you to take a look at these two sheets and tell us whether or not that is a report which you prepared on treatment of Mr. Oswald?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes, it is.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline in a very general way what his condition was when you first saw him?

Dr. SHIRES. When he was first seen in the emergency room, he was unconscious, without blood pressure or pulse, but with an audible heart beat, and attempts, feeble though they were, attempts in respiration. There was an entrance wound over the left lower chest and the bullet could be felt subcutaneously over the lower chest lateral projecting this trajectory through the body and looking at his general condition, it was fairly obvious that the bullet had transgressed virtually every major organ and vessel in the abdominal cavity, which later proved to be the case.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do for him?

Dr. SHIRES. He was given resuscitation, including an endotracheal tube, intravenous fluids, blood, moved to the operating room, prepared, draped, an abdominal incision, laparotomy made, just as is described in the record. The injuries were in fact mortal and involved both major vessels in the abdomen, the aorta, the inferior vena cava, and there had been massive exanguinating hemorrhage into the abdomen--in and around the abdomen.

After securing control of all the many, many bleeding points and the bleeding organs, he never had regained consciousness. Approximately 15, 16--whatever it is, approximately, pints of blood had been given, and he had suffered irreparable anoxia from the initial massive blood loss incident to the gunshot wound. When his heart did stop, even though we felt this was a terminal cessation of heartbeat, efforts were made at resuscitation by open heart massage and all that went with it, but never once was an effective heartbeat obtained, so that our initial impression was that it was correct in that this was simply cardiac death and not cardiac arrest.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you come close to saving him, in the vernacular--in lay terms?

Dr. SHIRES. There has never been recorded in medical literature recovery from a wound like this. There was too much blood lost too fast. Had the injury occurred right outside the operating room, it might have been possible to reduce the period of anoxia that comes from overwhelming blood loss like this, sufficiently to have corrected it. We did control all the bleeding points with a lot of difficulty, finally all bleeding points were controlled and this was a mortal wound--there was no question about that.

Mr. SPECTER. Are the details of your observations, examination, and treatment of Mr. Oswald set forth in the two pages of this report which I have just shown you in Commission No. 392?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes, the operative reports that are contained there.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Shires.

Dr. SHIRES. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DR. RICHARD BROOKS DULANY

The testimony of Dr. Richard Brooks Dulany was taken at 6:20 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Richard Dulany is present in response to the request that he appear to have his deposition taken and he has been requested to appear here because he has been identified in prior depositions as perhaps being one of the first doctors to see President Kennedy.

Dr. Dulany, have you had an opportunity to examine the Executive Order creating the President's Commission?

Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And the rules and regulations relating to the taking of testimony?

Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you willing to have your deposition taken here today, even though you haven't had the 3 days' notice which you have a right to, if you want it?

Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You are willing to waive that requirement?

Dr. DULANY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you stand up now and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. DULANY. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record?

Dr. DULANY. Richard Brooks Dulany.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession?

Dr. DULANY. M.D.--Medical Doctor.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you licensed to practice medicine in the State of Texas?

Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline your educational background, please, starting with college--graduation from college?

Dr. DULANY. From college I went to the University Medical School of Oklahoma and then took my internship here at Parkland Hospital and was in the service for 2 years in the Navy, and I just got back from the service in November, and started a residency here in surgery.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to participate in the care of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. DULANY. Is this all recorded now?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Dr. DULANY. Well, as I stated, I principally cared for the Governor and then after his emergency treatment had been cared for, I went into the room where President Kennedy was being cared for.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present from the start of the Governor's treatment?

Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And about what time did you go into the room where the President was being treated?

Dr. DULANY. Well, I believe the Governor was supposed to have been in the surgery suite upstairs within 12 minutes after he came in, and so I'm sure I must have been in the room where the President was, about 7 minutes or so afterwards.

Mr. SPECTER. What time was that, about, as best you can place it?

Dr. DULANY. I don't really recollect the specific times.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the condition of the President when you entered?

Dr. DULANY. Well, at this time his pupils were fixed and dilated and he had a large head wound--that was the first thing I noticed.

There was already a tracheotomy tube in the neck wound or what was later described as a wound, and had a cutdown running and several other doctors were putting chest tubes in.

Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were present at that time?

Dr. DULANY. I really can't be accurate on that. I remember Dr. Clark and Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Giesecke, Dr. Carrico, Dr. Martin White, and of course, the doctor that was probably down first of the staff members, Dr. Malcolm Perry, and I remember Dr. McClelland, and Dr. Peters were in there.

Mr. SPECTER. Are those all the doctors you remember as being down there?

Dr. DULANY. I believe those are all.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any of the nurses who were there?

Dr. DULANY. No, I don't believe so. I can't remember them.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything that you think that you know would be helpful to the President's Commission in its inquiry into this matter?

Dr. DULANY. I don't believe I could add anything any more than you probably already know.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any neck wound on the President?

Dr. DULANY. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. The tracheotomy had already been performed?

Dr. DULANY. It had been placed in.

Mr. SPECTER. Had the incision already been made when you first saw the President's neck?

Dr. DULANY. I really didn't examine it close enough to make any statement along that line.

Mr. SPECTER. Then, did you observe any wound in the President's neck at all?

Dr. DULANY. No, I just know that the tracheotomy was in and later I was told that this was a wound when it was first seen--you know, that's the best I can tell you.

Mr. SPECTER. That's fine, Dr. Dulany, thank you very much for appearing here today.

Dr. DULANY. Yes; thank you.

TESTIMONY OF RUTH JEANETTE STANDRIDGE

The testimony of Ruth Jeanette Standridge was taken at 1:35 p.m., on March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Miss Standridge, would you stand up and raise your right hand, please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy in these deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss STANDRIDGE. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, you may be seated.

Miss Standridge, the President's Commission is investigating the assassination of President Kennedy and all the facts relating thereto, and we have asked you to appear to have your deposition taken in connection with the treatment which was given to Governor Connally in Parkland Memorial Hospital and to President Kennedy in Parkland Memorial Hospital, and all facts relating to that.

Have you received a letter from the President's Commission requesting that you appear?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, there was a letter came and I was out of town and they opened it, the supervisor opened it and she had the letter, but I haven't seen it yet.

Mr. SPECTER. You haven't seen it yet?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, let me show you the enclosures which were in the letter so that you may be familiar with them. Here is a copy of the White House Executive order establishing the Commission, and here is a resolution establishing the rules for taking testimony. Permit me to explain to you that the rules require that we give you 3 days' notice, so that if you would request it now, we could delay taking your deposition until sometime next week, if you would prefer, or if you are agreeable to have us take your deposition, we can go right ahead and take it now.

Miss STANDRIDGE (reading instruments referred to). Thank you, you can just go ahead if you want to--it's all right with me.

Mr. SPECTER. It doesn't make any difference to you whether it is today or next week?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No; it does not.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name, please?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Ruth Jeanette Standridge.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Head nurse of the emergency rooms.

Mr. SPECTER. At what hospital?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties on November 22, 1963?

Miss STANDRIDGE. I was working as charge nurse in the major surgery area in Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you receive notification that the President of the United States was en route to Parkland Hospital?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes; by my supervisor, Doris Nelson.

Mr. SPECTER. And at about what time did you receive that notification?

Miss STANDRIDGE. About 12:30, I guess.

Mr. SPECTER. And what action, if any, did you take as a result of getting that notice?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Immediately went to trauma room 2 and I was in trauma room 2 and began to set up Renger liquid and check the suction machine.

Mr. SPECTER. And was trauma room 1 set up?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Mrs. Nelson was setting trauma room 1 up at the same time.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when one or more of the victims arrived?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was it arrived?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Governor Connally was brought into trauma room 2 first.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe President Kennedy arrive?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No; I was busy with the Governor.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do when the Governor arrived?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, we began to take his clothing off and the orderlies continued that and the doctors and I started handing the syringe and medicine and things necessary to start the IV.

Mr. SPECTER. And, what do you mean by "IV"?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Intravenous fluids.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you assist in the taking off of Governor Connally's clothes?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you notice with respect to the Governor's shirt?

Miss STANDRIDGE. There was blood on the front of it.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any bullet hole on the front of the shirt?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Not that I can say for sure.

Mr. SPECTER. There could have been or could not have been, but you just don't know?

Miss STANDRIDGE. There could have been, but mostly it was just blood that we noticed.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice anything on the coat?

Miss STANDRIDGE. There was blood on the coat.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he wearing his suit coat?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice whether or not there was any bullet hole in the coat?

Miss STANDRIDGE. I didn't see one.

Mr. SPECTER. What was Governor Connally's position when you first saw him?

Miss STANDRIDGE. He was laying on his back on the cart.

Mr. SPECTER. And what kind of cart was he lying on?

Miss STANDRIDGE. The emergency cart on rollers.

Mr. SPECTER. What is that emergency cart constructed of?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, it's just a thin fixture with rubber padding on the top, and it is used to transfer the patients to the wards, and to X-ray and to surgery.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it made of metal?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Of metal with four big tires on it.

Mr. SPECTER. With four roller tires on it?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was on the cart underneath the Governor?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, there was just a sheet was all we had on there.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything on top of the Governor?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, we put a sheet, when we unclothed him.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he completely undressed?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And was he lying on top of that cart while he was being undressed?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And who assisted you in the process of undressing him?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, David Sanders was helping, he was my orderly that was in the room, and also an aid, Rosa Majors, and she took the money out of his pants, and Dr. Fueishier.

Mr. SPECTER. How do you spell that?

Miss STANDRIDGE. F-u-e-i-s-h-i-e-r (spelling), and Dr. Duke, and there was a couple of other doctors--I don't remember who they were, but they were up at the head, Dr. Fueishier and Dr. Duke, and Dr. Shaw came in before they got the Governor's clothes off.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any object in Governor Connally's clothing?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Not unusual.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice a bullet, specifically?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear the sound of anything fall?

Miss STANDRIDGE. I didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there other noises going on in the room at that time?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes, there were.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Governor Connally completely undressed in the emergency room?

Miss STANDRIDGE. I believe so, to the best of my knowledge he was, I think everything was taken off.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with Governor Connally following the completion of his being undressed?

Miss STANDRIDGE. He was immediately carried to the elevator--emergency elevator.

Mr. SPECTER. And in what way was he carried to the emergency elevator?

Miss STANDRIDGE. On the emergency cart that he came into emergency room on.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that also describable as a stretcher?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. You say "Yes"?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you assist in pushing him into the elevator?

Miss STANDRIDGE. I started and then there was enough doctors pushing him and I went back to get his clothing and by the time I came back up again--I went just as quickly as I could walk back to trauma room 2 and got the clothing, I ran back up to catch him, and the elevator was closing with him on it.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you actually see Governor Connally being wheeled into the elevator?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No, the door was closing as I got back around. I started with him down the hall and then before I got back, they had put him into the elevator.

Mr. SPECTER. Who assisted in pushing him out of the emergency room and down the hall--is it a little ways?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, it's through the OB and GYN section.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that "Obstetrics and Gynecology" section?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes; you go through that section to get to this elevator from the major surgery section.

Mr. SPECTER. How far did you help push him from the major surgery section?

Miss STANDRIDGE. About from the door that went into OBGN.

Mr. SPECTER. About how far is that?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Oh, about 20 feet, I guess, and they had about another 20 feet to go before they turned to the left to get to the elevator, which is about 6 or 8 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. So, you left him and went back to the emergency room to get his clothes, and when you came back, did you see any part of the stretcher?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, I could just see--I could see the stretcher--yes; and the doors and everybody in the elevator and the door was closed in.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you see Governor Connally on the stretcher?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No, not--I think his feet were at the end--I could just see feet--I believe the feet were there at that door, you know.

Mr. SPECTER. And, you saw the same doctors around the stretcher who were pushing him when you last saw him?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure that was Governor Connally?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No, that's what I said--I just saw his feet, which I assumed it was--it was the same doctors.

Mr. SPECTER. About how long elapsed from the time you stopped pushing the stretcher until the time you got there to look and see just his feet?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Just a second, I mean, just a few seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. You went back and got his clothes?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do with those clothes?

Miss STANDRIDGE. I asked the administrator who should I give them to, and they told me to give them to Governor Connally's party and they were in the minor medicine section and I went out there and there were two gentlemen out there and I asked them who I wanted to see--I wanted to see somebody in Governor Connally's party, and they opened the door and they asked for somebody, and he said he was--he identified himself as Cliff Carter.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you give him the clothing?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what he did with it?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you heard what he did with it?

Miss STANDRIDGE. I've heard that it got lost and they found it in Representative Gonzales' office in a closet.

Mr. SPECTER. And is he a Texas Representative?

Miss STANDRIDGE. I believe so.

Mr. SPECTER. In his office closet where?

Miss STANDRIDGE. In Washington, D.C.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you limited in anyway from entering into the operating room area?

Miss STANDRIDGE. We are limited, but there is a place where the spots are painted on the floor that is is legal for us to go through into the hallway into the nurses' station.

Mr. SPECTER. You can go around in part of the operating room area?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Isn't into the premises--it's just in the hallway into the nurses' station.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is the reason for limiting you from going beyond that into the operating room area?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, we are not considered--we would be contaminating.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, is there some problem about flammable gases up there?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Anesthesia equipment, that's right, and these spots are painted there, and if you don't have the proper shoes on, they will be a conductor, you know, and these spots are there for that area.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Governor Connally removed from the stretcher at anytime while he was in the emergency room?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No; he wasn't. He never went to X-ray or he wasn't taken off at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Does the elevator that the stretcher was pushed into go only to the operating room?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No; it stops on first floor and also goes up to delivery--up to the delivery room on third floor.

Mr. SPECTER. What is on first floor?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No patients--only classrooms and administrative offices--business offices.

Mr. SPECTER. What is on third floor?

Miss STANDRIDGE. The delivery room--it opens up into the delivery room and then the post mortem wards.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything you would like to add which you think might be helpful to us in any way?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, not that I can think of other than that I have already stated.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see President Kennedy's stretcher at any time?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes; I was in the room--I took the mop in. The orderlies mopped the floor and we cleaned the wall, the blood off of the walls and so forth, to get it presentable before Mrs. Kennedy came back in.

Mr. SPECTER. And was President Kennedy in the room at that time?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him there?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And you identified him from what you knew he looked like?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And how was he clothed at that time?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, as far as from his waist up--was all that was uncovered and they were trying to protect his head with a sheet--it was wrapped around his head.

Mr. SPECTER. What clothing did he have on from the waist down?

Miss STANDRIDGE. It was just a sheet cover--I don't know of anything under the cover, whether there was or not. I assumed he was all unclothed, which we do routinely.

Mr. SPECTER. He was all unclothed?

Miss STANDRIDGE. I said I assumed he was--I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. What did he have from the waist up?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Nothing.

Mr. SPECTER. What was he on at that time?

Miss STANDRIDGE. A stretcher cart.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see what happened to that stretcher afterward?

Miss STANDRIDGE. I didn't notice. They moved it from the room.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what happened to the sheets that were on the President's stretcher?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you and I meet previously before I started to take the deposition here today and talk about the procedures for the investigation by the Warren Commission?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you and I been discussing here, with me asking questions and you making answers all the things which we talked about before the court reporter came in?

Miss STANDRIDGE. I believe so.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever talked to any other representative of the Federal Government?

Miss STANDRIDGE. The Secret Service--yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you talk with them once or more than once?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, I talked with them one time in Mr. Wright's office and another time just briefly--he came to see the layout of the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Whose office--Mr. Wright?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Personnel manager here.

Mr. SPECTER. What did the Secret Service men ask you about on those occasions?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, just the same thing we have gone over today.

Mr. SPECTER. And you talked with the Secret Service man in another part of the hospital on another day, you say?

Miss STANDRIDGE. I think he came back up into the emergency room at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you talk about in the emergency room at that time?

Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, Mrs. Nelson, she showed him the different areas.

Mr. SPECTER. And you identified some of the things?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever talked with any other representative of the Federal Government?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Any representative of the State government?

Miss STANDRIDGE. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much. Those are all--those are the only questions I have.

Miss STANDRIDGE. Thank you for that.

TESTIMONY OF JANE CAROLYN WESTER

The testimony of Jane Carolyn Wester was taken on March 20, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas. Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Miss Wester, this is Miss Oliver the court reporter and she will take down your testimony here and will you raise your right hand and take the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give in this proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss WESTER. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record preliminarily show that the purpose of this proceeding is in connection with the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy to ascertain facts relating to the assassination and all medical treatment obtained by President Kennedy and Governor Connally following their being shot.

The witness at the moment is Miss Jane Wester who has been asked to testify concerning any facts of which she has knowledge concerning treatment of President Kennedy or Governor Connally and the disposition of Governor Connally's clothing and sheet in which he was wrapped at the time the Governor was brought into the operating room at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name, for the record, please?

Miss WESTER. Jane Carolyn Wester.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your residence address, Miss Wester?

Miss WESTER. 1107 Brockbank, Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you received a letter of notification from the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy advising you that I would contact you for the purpose of taking testimony from you in connection with this proceeding, Miss Wester?

Miss WESTER. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And at that time did you receive the copies of the Executive order creating the Commission and the rules and regulations relating to the taking of testimony?

Miss WESTER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you satisfied to appear here today and answer some questions relating to your participation in the treatment of Governor Connally?

Miss WESTER. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. SPECTER. And President Kennedy?

Miss WESTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession, please?

Miss WESTER. I am a registered nurse.

Mr. SPECTER. And at what institution are you employed?

Miss WESTER. Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been so employed at Parkland Memorial Hospital?

Miss WESTER. Nine years--or 9 1/2.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline your duties in a general way as they were back on November 22, 1963?

Miss WESTER. I am assistant supervisor in the operating room, and I assign personnel duties, direct them in their activities.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you receive notice on that date that President Kennedy and Governor Connally were en route to Parkland Memorial Hospital to receive treatment?

Miss WESTER. I was not aware that they were in the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. When was it first brought to your attention, if at all?

Miss WESTER. At noon, around noon--noontime--I'm not sure as to the exact time it was. I was relieving the secretary for lunch and the phone rang. Someone in the pathology department asked if the President were in the operating room and I answered them, "No," and they said that a Secret Service agent was down there and as soon as the President did arrive in the operating room, would I please call them.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your next connection, if any, with respect to the treatment of either President Kennedy or Governor Connally at Parkland?

Miss WESTER. I received a phone call from the emergency room asking us to set up for a craniotomy.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is a craniotomy in lay language?

Miss WESTER. That's an exploration of the head.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other request made at that time?

Miss WESTER. Yes--well--immediately following, following that I received a call to set up for a thoracotomy, which is an exploration of the chest.

Mr. SPECTER. And were those two set ups made in accordance with the requests you received?

Miss WESTER. Yes; I immediately assigned personnel to set up these two rooms for these two cases.

Mr. SPECTER. And what room was used for the craniotomy?

Miss WESTER. The craniotomy was set up in room 7.

Mr. SPECTER. And what room was used for the thoracotomy?

Miss WESTER. The thoracotomy was set up in room 5.

Mr. SPECTER. And on what floor were the two rooms?

Miss WESTER. Well, on the south wing of the second floor.

Mr. SPECTER. What happened next in connection with this matter?

Miss WESTER. I assigned personnel to take care of the doorways to keep traffic out of the operating room and keep people back--keep the halls clear. Shortly thereafter, Governor Connally arrived in the operating room with several doctors--arrived by stretcher.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, in what way did a stretcher arrive from the first floor, or by what means of locomotion?

Miss WESTER. The stretcher arrived by an elevator which is in the operating room--it comes directly from emergency room and which--there were several doctors with him that brought the stretchers up.

Mr. SPECTER. And what happened to the stretcher after it left the elevator on the second floor of the operating room area?

Miss WESTER. The doctors brought this and were proceeding down the hall, and I met them in the center of the operating room suite itself.

Mr. SPECTER. About how far is that from the elevator door?

Miss WESTER. Approximately 50 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done then with Governor Connally on the stretcher, following the point where you met them?

Miss WESTER. We proceeded to room 5 and outside of room 5 we transferred Governor Connally from the stretcher onto an operating table and removed his clothes from the bottom of the stretcher and placed them in the hallway by the operating table.

Mr. SPECTER. In what way was Governor Connally dressed or robed when you first saw him on the stretcher?

Miss WESTER. As far as I know, the only thing he had was a sheet on him. He had no hospital gown or anything else that I know of on.

Mr. SPECTER. Had his clothes then been removed by that time?

Miss WESTER. Yes; he arrived without his clothes. They were on the bottom of the cart in a paper sack.

Mr. SPECTER. And you said he was transferred from the stretcher onto an operating table?

Miss WESTER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, was that inside the operating room? Or outside the operating room?

Miss WESTER. No; it's in the hallway right outside room 5--we transferred him onto the operating table, and then moved the table into the operating room.

Mr. SPECTER. And did he have any clothing on at the time you transferred him from the stretcher onto the operating table?

Miss WESTER. I don't recall any clothes that he had on.

Mr. SPECTER. What was then done with Governor Connally on the operating table?

Miss WESTER. The operating table was moved into the operating room and at that time they proceeded to start anesthetics on him and put him to sleep.

Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were in attendance of Governor Connally at that time.

Miss WESTER. Dr.--there were many--Dr. Giesecke, G-i-e-s-e-c-k-e (spelling)--there were so many. Dr. Ray, I believe, was there, and there were many others--right offhand, I can't remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you go into the operating room at that time?

Miss WESTER. I went as far as the doorway with him.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what was done with the stretcher on which he came to that point?

Miss WESTER. I took the stretcher and rolled it to the center area of the operating room suite--rolled the sheets up on the stretcher into a small bundle.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there one sheet or more than one sheet?

Miss WESTER. I believe there were two sheets and I rolled one inside the other up into a small bundle.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the next normal procedure with respect to the number of sheets on such a stretcher in like circumstances?

Miss WESTER. The cart--the mattress on the cart is covered with one sheet, the patient is usually covered with another. When they arrive in the operating room the sheet covering the patient is removed and a grey cotton blanket is placed over the patient and the sheets are rolled up and usually returned to the emergency room with the cart.

Mr. SPECTER. What else, if anything, was on that stretcher?

Miss WESTER. There were several glassine packets, small packets of hypodermic needles--well, packed in and sterilized in. There were several others-some alcohol sponges and a roll of 1-inch tape. Those things, I definitely know, were on the cart, and the sheets, of course.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other objects on the cart, on the stretcher cart?

Miss WESTER. Right off, I can't remember----

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect whether there were any gloves on the cart?

Miss WESTER. There could have been--I don't recall right off--I can't remember that.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether there were any tools on one end of the stretcher?

Miss WESTER. I know I set something down on the cart, I think it was a curved hemostat--I couldn't say for sure--I'm not sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have testified that you met Governor Connally on the stretcher when he was 50 feet from the elevator door. Is there any object at about that spot that is a landmark, so to speak, of that particular spot?

Miss WESTER. Where I met Governor Connally in the operating room?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Miss WESTER. There is a clock.

Mr. SPECTER. About how far from the clock is the door to the operating room, room 5, where Governor Connally was taken?

Miss WESTER. I would say approximately 75 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what did you do with the stretcher after Governor Connally was taken off of it?

Miss WESTER. I moved the stretcher back to the center area, fairly close to the clock, it wasn't right under it, but fairly close, and an orderly, R. J. Jimison, walked up----

Mr. SPECTER. His initials are R. J.?

Miss WESTER. And he stood at the cart while I rolled the sheets up and removed the items from the cart, and from there he took the cart and proceeded to the elevator with it and the last time I saw him he was standing at the elevator with the cart waiting for him to be picked up.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see that stretcher any more that day?

Miss WESTER. Not that I know of.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe in a general way what that stretcher looked like?

Miss WESTER. Well, it has four wheels and a lower shelf, a thin mattress on it, and side rails on it, on each side of the cart. It has a rubber rim at the edge of it, sort of a bumper type to the upper shelf of the cart.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is it constructed of?

Miss WESTER. Well, it's a metal--steel.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done with the mattress?

Miss WESTER. It remained on the cart. It was not moved then, only the sheets were left and rolled into a bundle. And, when the sheets were rolled into a bundle, I didn't actually lift them up.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Miss Jeanette Standridge at any time in connection with this particular movement of the stretcher?

Miss WESTER. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Mrs. Henrietta Ross at any time in connection with this particular movement of the stretcher?

Miss WESTER. No; I believe she walked up on my right as I was rolling the sheets up.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Darrell C. Tomlinson at any time in connection with this particular movement of the stretcher?

Miss WESTER. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you interviewed by the Secret Service about these events at some time in the past?

Miss WESTER. Yes; I was.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you interviewed by anyone else?

Miss WESTER. No.

Mr. SPECTER. And did the Secret Service interview on one occasion or more than one occasion?

Miss WESTER. Only one occasion.

Mr. SPECTER. And immediately prior to your being sworn in and starting to take this deposition, did I have a very brief conversation with you about the purpose of this proceeding?

Miss WESTER. Yes; you did.

Mr. SPECTER. And about the facts to which you have testified since this formal deposition started?

Miss WESTER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And at that did you tell me all the facts previously testified to here to this effect?

Miss WESTER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the sheet on which the Governor was lying have anything on it?

Miss WESTER. It had some blood.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you made any notes or any written record of that sort concerning the matters about which you have testified here today?

Miss WESTER. No; I haven't.

Mr. SPECTER. That concludes the deposition, and I thank you very much for appearing here.

Miss WESTER. Fine.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. HENRIETTA M. ROSS

The testimony of Mrs. Henrietta M. Ross was taken at 6:50 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that the oath has been administered to Mrs. Henrietta Ross who is appearing here in response to a letter request to testify as part of the inquiry of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which involves the treatment of President Kennedy and Governor Connally at Parkland Hospital.

Mrs. Ross has been asked to appear and testify concerning her knowledge about the stretcher cart on which Governor Connally was transported while in the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. With that preliminary statement, I'll ask you, Mrs. Ross, to state your full name?

Mrs. ROSS. Mrs. Henrietta Magnolia Ross.

Mr. SPECTER. And where are you employed?

Mrs. ROSS. Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. In what capacity?

Mrs. ROSS. Operating room technician.

Mr. SPECTER. And what were your duties on November 22, 1963?

Mrs. ROSS. Stand in the hall and guard the hall and not let anyone pass by I did not know.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to see Governor Connally?

Mrs. ROSS. Yes; as he came down the hall on the cart.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him as he left the elevator?

Mrs. ROSS. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. About what time was that?

Mrs. ROSS. About--it should have been after 1 o'clock because I was supposed to go to a class that day and I couldn't go.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was with him at the time, if anyone?

Mrs. ROSS. There were doctors all around in the corridor and I don't know exactly who--I only remember one person and that was Dr. Gustafason, because he gave me his coat to hang up as he was passing.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Miss Jane Wester there?

Mrs. ROSS. She was up there; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you see them do with the Governor, if anything?

Mrs. ROSS. They pushed him down in front of room 5 and onto the operating table and put him on it.

Mr. SPECTER. What were they pushing him on?

Mrs. ROSS. On a stretcher from the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the stretcher for me, please, starting with what was it made of?

Mrs. ROSS. It has four legs, four wheels and has a little rubber sheet on it. I mean, a rubber mattress, and the length of the normal body is the length of the cart.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it made of metal?

Mrs. ROSS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with the stretcher cart after they rolled Governor Connally off of it?

Mrs. ROSS. It was pushed back up toward room 3.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that toward the elevator?

Mrs. ROSS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And by whom was it pushed?

Mrs. ROSS. Jimison.

Mr. SPECTER. R. J. Jimison?

Mrs. ROSS. I don't know Jimison's initials, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. He's one of the orderlies there?

Mrs. ROSS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you last see the stretcher?

Mrs. ROSS. In front of room 3.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Jimison have it in his control at that time?

Mrs. ROSS. The last time I looked he was pushing it; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to the Secret Service about this?

Mrs. ROSS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions?

Mrs. ROSS. One time.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to anyone else from the Federal Government about this matter?

Mrs. ROSS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful to the Commission?

Mrs. ROSS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for appearing.

Mrs. ROSS. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF R. J. JIMISON

The testimony of R. J. Jimison was taken at 2:35 p.m., on March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas. Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you stand up, please, Mr. Jimison, and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you shall give before this Commission in the deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. JIMISON. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Jimison, have you received a letter of notification from the President's Commission advising you that you would be contacted to have your deposition taken?

Mr. JIMISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did that letter contain in it a copy of the Executive order creating the Commission, a copy of the joint congressional resolution about the Commission, and the procedures for taking depositions by the Commission?

Mr. JIMISON. I believe it did.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you willing to have your deposition taken today, sir; do you have any objection to my asking you some questions and having them reported by the court reporter here?

Mr. JIMISON. No; I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. By whom are you employed, Mr. Jimison?

Mr. JIMISON. I would just say the hospital--County Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Parkland Memorial Hospital?

Mr. JIMISON. Yes; Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. What kind of work do you do here?

Mr. JIMISON. Orderly.

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that you have a badge on which says, "R. J. Jimison".

Mr. JIMISON. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. "Orderly." And is that your full name?

Mr. JIMISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what does the "R" stand for?

Mr. JIMISON. That's just an initial name.

Mr. SPECTER. And how about the "J"?

Mr. JIMISON. Same.

Mr. SPECTER. So, people call you "R. J."?

Mr. JIMISON. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties back on November 22, 1963, Mr. Jimison?

Mr. JIMISON. My duties was the same as usual; that is, to transport patients to and fro, reclean rooms, betwixt each case.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to see President Kennedy on that day?

Mr. JIMISON. I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to see Governor Connally on that day?

Mr. JIMISON. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the circumstances under which you saw Governor Connally?

Mr. JIMISON. Well, I would say it wasn't such a pleasant circumstance, but he was lying on a carriage, a hospital carriage, and I was--I assisted in helping move him from the carriage to the operating table.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was he when you first saw him?

Mr. JIMISON. He was on the second floor in the operating room suite, near room 4, where his operation was performed.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he taken to room 4 or room 5?

Mr. JIMISON. He was taken in room--I thought it was room 4, but maybe it could have been room 5, but I taken it to be room 4, because like I told you, I helped lift him off of the table, but usually we help put them in the room--at that time there was so many doctors that I didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Governor Connally from the time he came off of the elevator?

Mr. JIMISON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. What floor were you on when you first saw him?

Mr. JIMISON. I was on two.

Mr. SPECTER. How far was he from the elevator when you first saw him?

Mr. JIMISON. I guess he must have been about 20 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. And how far was it from the elevator to the place where you were?

Mr. JIMISON. About how many feet? About 20 or 30 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he near the big clock when you first saw him, the clock that is overhead in the center there?

Mr. JIMISON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And were there doctors around him at that time?

Mr. JIMISON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you help push the stretcher from that point to----

Mr. JIMISON. (interrupting) No; I followed behind him to room 4 and I helped them take him off.

Mr. SPECTER. You helped them take Governor Connally and put him on the operating table?

Mr. JIMISON. I did.