Chapter XII: Part 12

Mr. COUCH. It looked like it was the top. And when you first glance at the building, you're thrown off a little as to the floors because there's a ridge--uh, it almost looks like a structure added onto the top of the building, about one story above. So, you have to recount.

Of course, at the time, I wasn't counting, but----

Mr. BELIN. You just remember, to the best of your recollection, that it was either the sixth or seventh floor?

Mr. COUCH. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. And when you say, "the far right"----

Mr. COUCH. That would be the far east.

Mr. BELIN. The far east of what side of the building?

Mr. COUCH. The south side of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not that window at which you saw the rifle, you say, being withdrawn--first of all, could you tell it was a rifle?

Mr. COUCH. Yes, I'd say you could. Uh--if a person was just standing on the--as much as I saw, if the factors that did happen, did not happen, you might not say that it was a rifle. In other words, if you just saw an object being pulled back into a window, you wouldn't think anything of it. But with the excitement intense right after that third shot and what Bob yelled, my impression was that it was a rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything more than a steel barrel of a rifle?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not the rifle had any telescopic sight on it?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any of the stock of the rifle?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any person pulling the rifle?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not, if you can remember, the window was open or halfway open or what?

Mr. COUCH. It was open. To say that it was half or three-quarters open, I wouldn't say. My impression was that it was all the way open--but that was an impression.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else in the window that you remember--any boxes or anything like that?

Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't notice whether there was or was not--or do you definitely remember that you did not notice any?

Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't notice anything.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any other people in any other windows in the building?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; I recall seeing--uh--some people standing in some of the other windows--about, roughly, third or fourth floor in the middle of the south side. I recall one--it looked like a Negro boy with a white T-shirt leaning out one of those windows looking up--up to the windows up above him.

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. Is there anything else you can remember about the building?

Mr. COUCH. No; that's just about the only impression I had at the moment.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you related what you heard Bob Jackson say. Did anyone else say anything in the car?

Mr. COUCH. No one else said anything, that I recall, about a rifle, or anything.

Mr. BELIN. Where was the car when you saw this rifle being withdrawn?

Mr. COUCH. I'd say about 25 feet before we made the turn onto Elm. Our car was facing the south side of the building.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what happened after Bob Jackson made his exclamation and you saw what you just related?

Mr. COUCH. Well, I picked up my camera. As I recall, I had it in my hand, but it was down leaning against my legs. And I picked it up and made a quick glance at a setting and raised it to my eye. And--uh--you can see from my film that we're just turning the corner. We start the turn and we turn the corner, and you can see people running. As I recall, there's a quick glance at the front entrance of the Texas Depository Book Building. You can see people running and you can see about the first three cars, maybe four, in front of me as we complete the turn.

And then I took pictures of--uh--a few people on my left and a group, or a sweeping, of the crowd on my right standing on the corner.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take any pictures of the School Book Depository Building itself?

Mr. COUCH. Not of the south side at that moment.

After we went, say, 50 to 75 feet on down Elm, uh--we began to hang on because the driver picked up speed. We got down under the--I think there's three trestles there, three crossings underneath the--uh--at the very bottom of Elm Street----

Mr. BELIN. Is that what they call the triple-underpass?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

And--uh--I think, as I recall, right after we'd made the turn on Elm, one or two of the fellows jumped out. But after we got all the way down underneath the three trestles we finally persuaded the driver--who wasn't too anxious to stop--to stop and--uh--we all jumped out.

And I ran, I guess it was about 75 yards or a little more back up to the School Depository Building and took some sweeping pictures of the crowd standing around. I didn't stay there long.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take any pictures of the Depository Building entrance?

Mr. COUCH. No--uh----

Mr. BELIN. When you came back up there?

Mr. COUCH. Not with determination. I cannot recall at this moment whether some of my pictures I took when I ran back might have a sweeping shot of the entrance through a wide angle lens. But not with determination. I didn't plan to take pictures of it.

Mr. BELIN. Would these shots--these wide angle lens shots, if anyone were standing in front of the building or leaving the building at that time, would you be able to identify them, or would they be too far away?

Mr. COUCH. They would be too far away. Possibly if the frames were blown up, one might determine if someone was standing there--identify someone.

Mr. BELIN. About how many minutes after the last shot would you say you came back to take these pictures?

Mr. COUCH. Well, I'd say it took me--uh--maybe a minute and a half to get back to there after this third shot--because we weren't but seconds getting down underneath that underpass after we made the turn.

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. COUCH. And--uh--I jumped out and ran back. So, I'd say not over a minute and a half.

Mr. BELIN. And then you started taking general sweeping shots of the area?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Were most of the shots directed at people along the side there as to what their reactions were, or were most of the shots directed at the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. COUCH. Mostly of the people standing around, the policemen and shots such as this.

Mr. BELIN. In what direction, generally, would the camera have been pointed, and where would you have been standing when you took these pictures?

Mr. COUCH. Some of the pictures, I remember, the camera was pointing south--because I was standing on the little knoll which is just at the foot and west of the Depository Building, where the little park area begins. There's a sidewalk that runs between the Book Depository property, I would assume and the park. And I was standing on that little sidewalk.

Mr. BELIN. And your camera was pointing south?

Mr. COUCH. Pointing south. That's right. Now, after I had taken I don't know how many feet of film of people standing around, I--uh--we--I think there was one or two other fellows with me and who they were, now, I can't remember; they were photographers--we stopped a car that was going by with a boy in it--a young boy of about high school age--and asked him to take us out to Parkland. And as the car started off, I started my camera and I have a sweeping shot moving west from about--uh--maybe the middle of the Book Depository Building from ground level on past the park area--a sweeping shot with the car moving.

Mr. BELIN. And that's about it insofar as the School Book Depository Building is concerned?

Mr. COUCH. Well, no. After we got out to Stemmons--they'd set up a roadblock just as you entered Stemmons Expressway.

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. COUCH. We jumped out of the car and I took, I believe it was, a 2-inch lens shot of the Book Depository Building of the west wall.

Mr. BELIN. Of the west wall?

Mr. COUCH. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Not of the front entrance?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any particular reason, Mr. Couch, why you didn't take your first pictures of the School Book Depository Building itself when you say you saw a rifle being withdrawn?

Mr. COUCH. Well, uh--as best I can recall, the excitement on the ground of people running and policemen "revving" up their motorcycles--and I have a real nice shot of a policeman running toward me with his pistol drawn--the activity on the ground kept my attention. The reason I did not stay and take pictures of the Depository Building--which I had originally intended to do when I got out of the motorcade--was that--uh--another cameraman from our station, A. J. L'Hoste--[spelling] L-'-H-o-s-t-e--he came running up and--uh--when he ran up, why I said, "You stay here and get shots of the building and go inside--and I'm going to go back--I'm going to follow the President."

Mr. BELIN. All right. Was he also a moving picture cameraman?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; right.

Mr. BELIN. Where was he at the time you made this statement?

Mr. COUCH. Uh--he was standing on that little sidewalk that runs between the--I met him on the little sidewalk between the Book Depository property and the beginning of the parkway.

Mr. BELIN. That would be the west side of the Depository Building?

Mr. COUCH. That's right; that's right. It's there that I saw the blood on the sidewalk.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you say you saw blood on the sidewalk, Mr. Couch?

Mr. COUCH. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Where was that?

Mr. COUCH. This was the little walkway--steps and walkway that leads up to the corner, the west corner, the southwest corner of the Book Depository Building. Another little sidewalk, as I recall, turns west and forms that little parkway and archway right next to the Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. Did this appear to be freshly created blood?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; right.

Mr. BELIN. About how large was this spot of blood that you saw?

Mr. COUCH. Uh--from 8 to 10 inches in diameter.

Mr. BELIN. Did people around there say how it happened to get there, or not?

Mr. COUCH. No; no one knew. People were watching it--that is, watching it carefully and walking around it and pointing to it.

Uh--just as I ran up, policemen ran around the west corner and ran--uh--northward on the side of the building. And my first impression was that--uh--that they had chased someone out of the building around that corner, or possibly they had wounded someone. All the policemen had their pistols pulled. And people were pointing back around those shrubs around that west corner and--uh--you would think that there was a chase going on in that direction.

Again, the reason that I didn't follow was because A. J. had come up, and my first concern was to get back with the President.

Mr. BELIN. This pool of blood--about how far would it have been north of the curbline of Elm Street as Elm Street goes to the expressway?

Mr. COUCH. I'd say--uh--well, from Elm Street, you mean, itself?

Mr. BELIN. Yes. This is from that part of Elm Street that goes into the expressway?

Mr. COUCH. I'd say--uh--50 to 60 feet, and about 15 feet or 10 to 15 feet from the corner of the Texas Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. It would have been somewhere along that park area there?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else you noticed by this pool of blood?

Mr. COUCH. No. There were no objects on the ground. We looked for something. We thought there would be something else, but----

Mr. BELIN. There was nothing?

Mr. COUCH. Huh-uh.

Mr. BELIN. Now, this A. J.----?

Mr. COUCH. L'Hoste. That's "L" apostrophe.

Mr. BELIN. Yes; I have that. I have made a note of the spelling, along with the phonetic sound.

Do you know if he got any pictures of the south side of the School Book Depository?

Mr. COUCH. No; I don't recall what he got--as I recall--now, I may be wrong, this is a guess--that he did not take any pictures.

Mr. BELIN. He did not take any?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know of anyone that took any pictures of the south side of the School Book Depository Building, particularly the front entrance of the building, shortly after the assassination?

Dr. COUCH. No; only what I have seen in Time magazine.

Mr. BELIN. Only what you've seen in Time magazine?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, did you ever know or hear of Lee Harvey Oswald before any of this?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever met Jack Ruby?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. There is an FBI report that states that you had heard hearsay statements that someone had seen Jack Ruby emerge from the rear of the Texas School Book Depository Building around that time. Did anyone ever tell you that?

Mr. COUCH. Yes. Uh--where I first heard it, I could not now recall; but--uh--the story went that--uh--Wes Wise, who works for KRLD----

Mr. BELIN. TV?

Mr. COUCH. Yes--saw him moments after the shooting--how many moments, I don't know--5 minutes, 10 minutes--coming around the side of the building, coming around the east side going south, I presume.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever talk to Wes Wise as to whether or not he actually saw this, or is this just hearsay?

Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't. This is just hearsay.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this: Is there any observation, other than hearsay, that you have about this entire sequence of events that you have not related here?

Mr. COUCH. No; I can't think of anything. No.

Mr. BELIN. In this same FBI report of an interview with you, it states that--and by the way, I did not show this to you when you first chatted about this--is that correct?

Mr. COUCH. Uh-huh; that's right.

Mr. BELIN. There is a statement as to the time sequence--that you heard, first, two loud noises about 10 seconds apart. And you related here that it would have been 5 seconds apart or less. Do you remember whether or not at the time you gave your first statement to the FBI you said 10 seconds or would you have said about 10 seconds or would you have said less than 10 seconds--or could this be inaccurate, as sometimes happens?

Mr. COUCH. I don't recall now. Ten seconds is not a reasonable time; even if I said "about 10 seconds." I know a little bit more about timing than that. We have to time our stories pretty close--and that's a long time.

Mr. BELIN. And what's your best recollection now as to the amount of time between shots?

Mr. COUCH. Well, I would say the longest time would be 5 seconds, but it could be from 3 to 5.

Mr. BELIN. And would this be true between the first and the second shots as well as between the second and third--or would there have been a difference?

Mr. COUCH. As I recall, the time sequence between the three were relatively the same.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Couch, shortly before we commenced taking this deposition, you and I met for the first time. Is that correct?

Mr. COUCH. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And then we came to this room and we chatted for a few minutes before we started taking a formal deposition. Is that correct?

Mr. COUCH. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, is there anything that we talked about pertaining to the assassination that in any way differs or conflicts with the testimony that you have just given?

Mr. COUCH. No; no.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not I questioned you in great detail about each question or whether or not I just asked you to relate the story to me?

Mr. COUCH. You asked me to give general highlight impressions before we began.

Mr. BELIN. And then, after you gave those to me, we started taking the deposition--is that correct?

Mr. COUCH. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And then you repeated on the deposition what we had talked about--is that right?

Mr. COUCH. That's right--in more detail.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of at this time which, in any way, would affect the investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. COUCH. No; I cannot think of anything.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you very much for taking your time to come down here. We know that you're a busy man. We also would like you to convey our thanks to station WFAA-TV for allowing you to come down here. We appreciate it very much.

Mr. COUCH. Thank you, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Couch, we're going back on the record again. You're still under oath--and I'm not quite sure whether I asked this question, but I had better ask it again.

When you saw this rifle being withdrawn. About how much of it could you see at first?

Mr. COUCH. I'd say just about a foot of it.

Mr. BELIN. And in what direction was the barrel pointing at the time you saw it being withdrawn?

Mr. COUCH. Approximately a 45° angle westward--which would be pointing down Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. Down Elm Street as it goes into the expressway there?

Mr. COUCH. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. And when you say "45° angle" would that be up or down, or are you referring to the angle of incline, or the angle of west and south?

Mr. COUCH. The angle of incline--from a horizontal position.

Mr. BELIN. All right. So, you would estimate about a 45° angle downward pointing in what would be a southwesterly direction?

Mr. COUCH. Uh--westerly direction. From looking straight on at the building, one could not tell the--uh--angle, whether it was more southward or not. In other words, something sticking out the building, I couldn't tell. It was not--it did not appear to me that it was sticking straight out the window, so to speak.

Mr. BELIN. Yes. Is there anything else that you noticed about the gun?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Thank you. I just wanted to make sure I got that on the record.

TESTIMONY OF TOM C. DILLARD

The testimony of Tom C. Dillard was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. State your name.

Mr. DILLARD. Tom C. Dillard.

Mr. BALL. Will you stand and raise your right hand, please?

Mr. DILLARD (Complying).

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony given before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. DILLARD. I do.

Mr. BALL. My name is Joseph A. Ball. I am staff counsel for the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. You have already been requested to be present have you not----

Mr. DILLARD. By letter; yes.

Mr. BALL. By letter which you received last week?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. DILLARD. I am a photographer.

Mr. BALL. I might state the purpose of questioning you is to ask you questions as to any knowledge you might have as to the facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963, at Dallas, Tex.

Mr. DILLARD. I understand. My occupation is journalist; I am chief photographer of the Dallas Morning News, do some aviation writing but my primary job is head of the photographic department and, of course, I do outside work for the paper on photographic work.

Mr. BALL. How old are you?

Mr. DILLARD. I'm 49.

Mr. BALL. What has been your general education?

Mr. DILLARD. High school, very few college courses.

Mr. BALL. What?

Mr. DILLARD. High school and very few college courses.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. DILLARD. I didn't go to school. I graduated Fort Worth, from the old Central High School, went to the Officer Candidate School in the Military and Air University.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the paper?

Mr. DILLARD. The Dallas News since 1947 and I was with the Star Telegram, went to work in 1929.

Mr. BALL. Have you been a photographer for the papers all these years?

Mr. DILLARD. Well, yes; of course, the first years, when I was started at the age of 15, I was a copy boy and did various reporting and whatever we could do on the paper. I was 15 when I started.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, you were in the motorcade who followed President Kennedy, weren't you?

Mr. DILLARD. That is correct. I understand our car was about number six in the line.

Mr. BALL. Did you meet the President at Love Field?

Mr. DILLARD. That's right.

Mr. BALL. And then you rode in the motorcade from Love Field into Dallas?

Mr. DILLARD. Right.

Mr. BALL. Who was in your car?

Mr. DILLARD. I remember Jim Underwood, he's an announcer for KRLD-TV and cameraman, acting as a cameraman that day; and Bob Jackson of the Times-Herald, cameraman; and Couch with our TV station, Channel 8, and did you have information his name is Couch?

Mr. BALL. That's right; and the man that drove----

Mr. DILLARD. Channel 5--Darnell, I think his name is, and the driver of the car which I don't believe I remember his name. It was a Chevrolet convertible.

Mr. BALL. Your car was about sixth, was it?

Mr. DILLARD. I believe.

Mr. BALL. From the President's car?

Mr. DILLARD. From the President's car. We lost our position out at the airport. I understood we were supposed to have been quite a bit closer. We were assigned as the prime photographic car which, as you probably know, normally a truck precedes the President on these things and certain representatives of the photographic press ride with the truck. In this case, as you know, we didn't have any and this car that I was in was to take any photographs which was of spot-news nature.

Mr. BALL. As you turned from Main Street onto Houston, was the President's car in sight at that time?

Mr. DILLARD. No; and the whole parade, the whole trip to town, I could only distinguish the President's car on very few occasions in high rises in the ground, when we got on hills. It was difficult because the people in the cars ahead of me were sitting on the backs of cars which pretty well covered the President's car for me. We had a very, very poor view of the President's car at any time from the time the parade started.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me whether or not the President's car had made the turn off Houston Street when your car turned north on Houston?

Mr. DILLARD. It had.

Mr. BALL. It had?

Mr. DILLARD. No; I won't say it had. I think it had because, like I say, I could never see the car very well. I believe it had.

Mr. BALL. Where were you sitting in the car?

Mr. DILLARD. I was sitting in the right front.

Mr. BALL. Who was in the front seat with you?

Mr. DILLARD. Oh, I don't remember; I think Jackson was sitting beside me--no; I believe Jackson was sitting in the back. I don't remember what our locations were.

Mr. BALL. But you know you were in the right front?

Mr. DILLARD. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear something unusual as you were driving north on Houston?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes; I heard an explosion which I made the comment that I believe, in my memory, I believe I said, "My God, they've thrown a torpedo" and why I said "torpedo", I don't know. If you wish, I'll go ahead----

Mr. BALL. Go ahead with your story.

Mr. DILLARD. Well, then I later estimated, immediately later, estimated, oh, 4, about 3 or 4 seconds, another explosion and my comment was, "No, It's heavy rifle fire," and I remember very distinctly I said, "It's very heavy rifle fire."

Mr. BALL. How many explosions did you hear?

Mr. DILLARD. I heard three--the three approximately equally spaced.

Mr. BALL. What is the best estimate of the position of your car with reference to the turn at Main and Houston when you heard the first explosion?

Mr. DILLARD. Perhaps, oh, just a few feet around the corner and it seems we had slowed a great deal. It seems that our car had slowed down so that we were moving rather slowly and perhaps just passed the turn when I heard the first explosion.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anyone in your car say anything?

Mr. DILLARD. Well, after the third shot I know my comment was, "They killed him." I don't know why I said that but Jackson--there was some running comment about what can we do or where is it coming from and we were all looking. We had an absolutely perfect view of the School Depository from our position in the open car, and Bob Jackson said, "There's a rifle barrel up there." I said, "Where?" I had my camera ready. He said, "It's in that open window." Of course, there were several open windows and I scanned the building.

Mr. BALL. Which building?

Mr. DILLARD. The School Depository. And at the same time I brought my camera up and I was looking for the window. Now, this was after the third shot and Jackson said, "There's the rifle barrel up there," and then he said it was the second from the top in the right-hand side, and I swung to it and there was two figures below, and I just shot with one camera, 100-mm. lens on a 35-mm. camera which is approximately a two times daily photo twice normal lens and a wide angle on a 35-mm. which took in a considerable portion of the building and I shot those pictures in rapid sequence with the two cameras.

Mr. BALL. You shot how many pictures?

Mr. DILLARD. Two pictures.

Mr. BALL. With one camera or two different cameras?

Mr. DILLARD. Two different cameras--one daily photo, not extreme daily photo, but twice the normal lens.

Mr. BALL. You say your cameras were ready? How were they ready?

Mr. DILLARD. Hung around my neck and held in my hand.

Mr. BALL. You brought them up and focused and shot?

Mr. DILLARD. Well, on the whole ride, I had been watching the tops of buildings and watching for any signs or anything unusual which, of course, is a newsman's chore on a parade like that. We were badly--in a very bad position from our viewpoint to cover anything on the parade, so we were all, as any news photographer is, rather tense when he is covering a Presidential or an affair of that sort and he is trying to get whatever pictures possible and watching for every possibility, and so we all tried for a number of things. Incidentally, the only unusual thing in the parade that I noticed was the President--I understand the President stopped his car at Lemmon and Loma Alta, which is out in the near suburbs of Dallas, as I understand, at the request of a sign that said, "Mr. President, stop and shake hands with us." I jumped out of the car--it was a convertible with the top down--and tried to run to get pictures of it but by that time the parade started and I was unable to get up that far.

Mr. BALL. When you shot these two pictures of the Texas School Book Depository Building, how far were you from the building, would you say?

Mr. DILLARD. From the window or from the----

Mr. BALL. From the building. That would be, I suppose, a measurement along the street.

Mr. DILLARD. I would say it was just before we reached the corner of Elm and Houston Streets.

Mr. BALL. You were south of Elm and Houston, were you?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. About how far? Well, perhaps as a photographer, you can give me a more accurate estimate this way; tell me how far you think your camera was from the upper windows when you shot that picture?

Mr. DILLARD. Oh, it wasn't over 50, 60 yards.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anything in the windows?

Mr. DILLARD. No.

Mr. BALL. You didn't see a rifle barrel?

Mr. DILLARD. No.

Mr. BALL. But you did see some figures or forms in the window?

Mr. DILLARD. Only in the windows which was the windows below.

Mr. BALL. How many forms did you see in the windows below?

Mr. DILLARD. I saw two men in the windows, at least the arched windows. I saw them in my picture. I was making the picture my eyes were covering.

Mr. BALL. You saw them as you were taking the picture?

Mr. DILLARD. I may have; I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember if you saw two or three figures?

Mr. DILLARD. I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. But you did see some figures and you cannot be accurate?

Mr. DILLARD. Right.

Mr. BALL. Your car stopped where?

Mr. DILLARD. I remember, we were stopping and starting down Houston Street or moving very slowly while this shooting was going on, and I know we came around the corner of Houston and Elm and saw people lying on the ground down the hill on the sides of the lawns there in the plaza, and I jumped out of my car. The car stopped then and I got out and I don't know what happened.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after you go out?

Mr. DILLARD. Well, I made a picture of cars moving into the sun under the underpass, somebody chasing the car and I looked at the situation in that area and saw absolutely nothing of the Presidential car or anything that appeared worth photographing to me at the time.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay around there?

Mr. DILLARD. Perhaps 2 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. DILLARD. Another car, Chevrolet convertible, of the party came by with, I assume, dignitaries in it and I jumped on the back of it and we started--I told them, of course, who I was and we started out Stemmons Expressway toward the Trade Mart and I explained to them what I knew and tried to hold onto the back of that car at rather high speed. I never saw the Presidential car.

Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea or any impression as to the source of the explosions--what direction it was coming from?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes, I felt that, at the time, I felt like it was coming from a north area and quite close, and I might qualify I have had a great deal of experience. I am a gun nut and have a great number of high-powered rifles at home, so I know a little bit about guns.

Mr. BALL. You have had experience with rifles?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes, I have shot a great deal, so I am familiar with the noise that they made in that area. We were getting a sort of reverberation which made it difficult to pinpoint the actual direction but my feeling was that it was coming into my face and, in that I was facing north toward the School Depository--I might add that I very definitely smelled gun powder when the car moved up at the corner.

Mr. BALL. You did?

Mr. DILLARD. I very definitely smelled it.

Mr. BALL. By that you mean when you moved up to the corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes; now, there developed a very brisk north wind.

Mr. BALL. That was in front of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes, it's rather close--the corner is rather close. I mentioned it, I believe, that it was rather surprising to me.

Mr. BALL. Who did you mention it to?

Mr. DILLARD. Bob, I'm sure.

Mr. BALL. Bob Jackson?

Mr. DILLARD. Yeah, Bob and I were talking about it.

Mr. BALL. You developed your pictures, didn't you?

Mr. DILLARD. I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Or did you turn them over?

Mr. DILLARD. I printed them.

Mr. BALL. You printed them?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes, I don't remember whether I developed that roll or not. I may have.

Mr. BALL. Did you do that the same day?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes, immediately thereafter, shortly after I came back from the hospital.

Mr. BALL. Then you examined the pictures that you had taken--those two pictures you had taken?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I have----

Mr. DILLARD. There was never any question in my mind that there was more than or less than three explosions which were all heavy rifle fire, in my opinion, of the same rifle. The same rifle fired three shots.

Mr. BALL. Do you still have the two negatives?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes; of these [indicating]?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. DILLARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You have them in your possession?

Mr. DILLARD. At the Dallas News; they're in a box kept locked in the managing editor's office.

Mr. BALL. Suppose we could do this. I have pictures here which you can identify but perhaps it might be a little closer to the source if we do this. Could you make me up two prints for your deposition from those negatives?

Mr. DILLARD. Well, I guess so.

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Off-record discussion.)

Mr. BALL. You will endorse your signature on each copy as being a print made from your negatives, is that satisfactory?

Mr. DILLARD. Suits me; I could get it notarized.

Mr. BALL. You don't need to do that because we can attach it as a copy to this deposition.

Mr. DILLARD. I could sign these; of course, you want that other.

Mr. BALL. We have two here. First of all, you made one picture with a wide lens?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you made a picture with a short lens?

Mr. DILLARD. Long lens--short and wide are the same.

Mr. BALL. A short, wide lens and one long lens. Now, I show you two pictures and I mark one "A" and mark one "B." Look them over and tell me whether or not those are prints from the picture that you made that day.

Mr. DILLARD. These are prints from one of the negatives I made on November 22.

Mr. BALL. And then you will furnish us two prints, one from each negative which we will mark as "C" and "D" and you will initial them, is that correct?

Mr. DILLARD. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. Do you mind initialing the "A" and "B" and we will make it part of this deposition--just on the back?

Mr. DILLARD. One of them will be the same picture as these two. These two are prints from one of my negatives.

Mr. BALL. That will be all right.

Mr. DILLARD. I have another negative.

Mr. BALL. Which you will make a print of?

Mr. DILLARD. If you wish.

Mr. BALL. Make up a print from each negative. Now, you made a statement to Agent Keutzer of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 25th of November 1963, didn't you, or thereabouts?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And at that time, you told him that you first heard a noise which sounded like a torpedo, didn't you?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes, I said----

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Off-record discussion.)

Mr. BALL. Did you tell him that hearing another sound similar to that, you realized it was gunfire?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you heard the third shot. Now, the statement says that upon hearing the third shot, the car in which he was riding was stopped almost in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. DILLARD. My car?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. DILLARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear Bob Jackson of the Dallas Times-Herald exclaim "I see a rifle; it's up in the open window".

Mr. DILLARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And Jackson pointed to the Texas School Book Depository located at Elm and Houston Streets?

Mr. DILLARD. That's right.

Mr. BALL. And you looked up at the building and you did not see a rifle protruding from any window?

Mr. DILLARD. I did not see a rifle.

Mr. BALL. But you did take two photographs?

Mr. DILLARD. Correct.

Mr. BALL. And you still have those negatives?

Mr. DILLARD. That's true.

Mr. BALL. Were you ever in a position where you could see anyone leave the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. DILLARD. Briefly, only in the very short time, perhaps a period of 3 or 4 minutes, that I was in the general area. After the third shot, I was probably not there over 3 or 4 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody leave the building?

Mr. DILLARD. To my knowledge; no.

Mr. BALL. I think that's everything. Will you waive signature on this?

Mr. DILLARD. Sure.

Mr. BALL. Thank you, sir.

Mr. DILLARD. That's all right, glad to help.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES ROBERT UNDERWOOD

The testimony of James Robert Underwood was taken at 11:25 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Underwood, will you stand up and be sworn?

(Complying.)

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. My name is James Robert Underwood.

Mr. BALL. Your occupation?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I am the assistant news director of KRLD-TV and radio in Dallas.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, you were in the motorcade, the Presidential motorcade?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; I was three cars behind the President.

Mr. BALL. Who was in the car with you?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. There was a photographer from channel 5, WBAP-TV, whose name is James Darnell, and a photographer from the Dallas Morning News--I know his name but I can't think of it right now----

Mr. BALL. Tom Dillard?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; Tom Dillard, and a photographer from the Dallas Times-Herald whose name is Bob Jackson, also a photographer from WFAA-TV and I do not know his name. I heard it but I don't remember it.

Mr. BALL. There was a driver, also?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; the driver I later found out was a member of the department of public safety.

Mr. BALL. You are a photographer, also?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; I wear many hats in my business but one of which is news photographer.

Mr. BALL. Did you have your camera with you that day?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. What is your experience; where were you born; where did you go to school; how did you get to get the experience that fit you for your present job? Just in your own words, tell me something about yourself.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I was born in Oklahoma City, Okla., in 1922; I served in the Marine Corps from 1940 until 1943, almost 4 years, and after that I attended the University of Tulsa and after that I worked--I began working in radio as an announcer while I was going to college. When I got out of college, I went to Corpus Christi, Tex. That was about 1947 and I became program director and news director of a radio station in Corpus Christi and I stayed there until 1950 when I went to a station in Jacksonville, Fla., where I was also program director and news director, and in 1953, I came to Dallas, and I worked for a year and a half for WFAA-TV as an announcer, then I freelanced in television and radio from September of 1954 until November--and I have to count for a minute--6 years this November that would be until November 1958 when I went to work for KRLD-TV and Radio News and shortly thereafter I became assistant news director but I earned part of my living, I still freelance in television which is all freelance in television and I have a regular job which entails every type of reporting, including photography which I enjoy doing.

Mr. BALL. On the day of the assassination, you were in the motorcade with these men you mentioned and you think your car was third behind the Presidential car?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; and I thought it was six or seven. I shot sound on film of the President's arrival and Vice President's arrival at Dallas Love Field the morning he came in on the 22d and then I took off the rather cumbersome sound on film equipment and took my hand camera because I had an assigned place in the motorcade and I could not tell out there because of the many people I could not tell what position we were in. I could not see that far ahead to determine exactly where we were in the motorcade, although I knew we were in the front of it. The motorcade stopped once on the way downtown, this was briefly, and I jumped over this side--we were in a convertible--and ran toward the President's car and I was aware of the crowd and the motorcade immediately started and I ran back to the convertible, not wanting to be left, and looking afterward at the films that I took there, I could then count the cars there. I realized we were three behind him, according to my movies we took. When we turned onto Main Street downtown and headed west toward the scene of where the assassination took place, either the regulator or the mainspring in my camera broke and I was without a camera. I knew that we had two men, at least two men on the parade route who were on the street and would be filming the motorcade as we came by and I hoped to exchange my broken camera for one of theirs because I knew I could make more use of the one that would operate. The only problem was we went down Main Street so rapidly it would have been impossible to get anything from someone standing on the street and at Main and Record one of our men was stationed and I tried to holler at him my camera was broken and I wanted to switch and I started to and there was no point in it because we passed there that rapidly. I thought it was the fastest motorcade that passed through a crowd; this was really moving, as far as I was concerned. Then, we came to the scene where the shots were fired. Do you want me to go on?

Mr. BALL. From the time you turned, tell me what you observed after you made the turn at Main and Houston to drive north on Houston.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. After we turned onto Houston Street, the car I was in was about, as far as I can remember, about in the middle of the block or a little bit north of the center of the block, which is a short block, when I heard the first shot.

Mr. BALL. Between Main and Elm?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; between Main and Elm, closer to the Elm intersection, Elm and Houston intersection, when I heard the first shot fired. I thought it was an explosion. I have heard many rifles fired but it did not sound like a rifle to me. Evidently must have been a reverberation from the buildings or something. I believe I said to one of the other fellows it sounds like a giant firecracker and the car I was in was about in the intersection of Elm and Houston when I heard a second shot fired and moments later a third shot fired and I realized that they were by that time, the last two shots, I realized they were coming from overhead.

Mr. BALL. You realized they were coming from overhead and that would be from what source?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. That would be from the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. BALL. It sounded like they were coming from that direction?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; the last two. Now, the first was just a loud explosion but it sounded like a giant firecracker or something had gone off. By the time the third shot was fired, the car I was in stopped almost through the intersection in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building and I leaped out of the car before the car stopped. Bob Jackson from the Herald said he thought he saw a rifle in the window and I looked where he pointed and I saw nothing. Below the window he was pointing at, I saw two colored men leaning out there with their heads turned toward the top of the building, trying, I suppose, to determine where the shots were coming from.

Mr. BALL. What words did you hear Bob Jackson say?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I don't know that I can remember exactly except I did hear him say words to the effect that "I saw a rifle" and I looked at that instant and I saw nothing myself. If he saw a rifle, I did not.

Mr. BALL. At that point when you looked, where was your car?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Our car was in the intersection, in the intersection of Elm and Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. Had it made the turn yet?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. It had partially made the turn or had just begun to make the turn. Frankly, I was looking up and around and I saw at the same time people falling on the ground down the street toward the underpass and my first impression was some of these people falling to the ground had been shot.

Mr. BALL. Did your car stop?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Our car stopped and the minute it stopped I leaped out of the car.

Mr. BALL. Where was your car when it stopped?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Right in the intersection, perhaps just past the intersection, turned onto Elm.

Mr. BALL. Did you get out before the car parked along the curb?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; the minute it stopped, I leaped over the side.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I left my camera in the car, the camera that was broken, and ran as fast as I could back toward the man we had at Record and Main in order to get a camera. There I was without a camera; the only thought I had was to get a camera.

Mr. BALL. Did you get one?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; I ran the full block back to Main Street and our man there, name of Sanderson, was running down Main toward Houston. He was running to meet me, although he didn't know what was happening and that my camera was broke. Suddenly, motorcycles and sirens had been turned on police cars and were all headed toward Main. I met him just around the corner on Main past Houston and grabbed his camera and said, "Someone had been shooting at the President." I didn't know this but I assumed it happened. I took his camera and got back to the scene. When I got back to the scene, most of the people in the area were running up the grassy slope toward the railway yards just behind the Texas School Book Depository Building. Actually, I assumed, which is the only thing I could do, I assumed perhaps who had fired the shots had run in that direction. I recognized at least a dozen deputy sheriffs running also in that area--it seems to me that many, and I ran up there and took some films and they were running through the railroad yard and they very quickly found nothing and I was having, frankly, a hard time breathing because I had done more running in those few minutes than I am used to doing. I gasped out to a couple people--I don't know who they are--that I thought the shots came from that building and one of the fellows in the car with me said they had seen a rifle barrel in the building.

Mr. BALL. This group of men were deputy sheriffs?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. For the most part, yes; I don't think I could recall--Lemmy Lewis I see in my mind, but I am not sure Lemmy was there. This was a kaleidoscope of things happening. In my business, you need to make a quick appraisal of what is happening if you are going to shoot pictures of it. I was confused and out of breath and unbelieving of what happened.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go from the grassy slopes?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I went from the railroad yards--actually, I was back in the track area--I went immediately with these men at a run to the Texas School Depository.

Mr. BALL. Which entrance?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. The front entrance.

Mr. BALL. On Elm?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; and I ran down there and I think I took some pictures of some men--yes, I know I did, going in and out of the building. By that time there was one police officer there and he was a three-wheeled motorcycle officer and a little colored boy whose last name I remember as Eunice.

Mr. BALL. Euins?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. It may have been Euins. It was difficult to understand when he said his name. He was telling the motorcycle officer he had seen a colored man lean out of the window upstairs and he had a rifle. He was telling this to the officer and the officer took him over and put him in a squad car. By that time, motorcycle officers were arriving, homicide officers were arriving and I went over and asked this boy if he had seen someone with a rifle and he said "Yes, sir." I said, "Were they white or black?" He said, "It was a colored man." I said, "Are you sure it was a colored man?" He said, "Yes sir" and I asked him his name and the only thing I could understand was what I thought his name was Eunice.

Mr. BALL. Was he about 15?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I couldn't tell his age; looked to me to be younger. I would have expected him to be about 10 or 11 years old.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I stayed in front of the building; actually, I stayed in the intersection of Elm and Houston and took movies of police arriving and fire--and I think some fire equipment arrived on the scene, one firetruck or two firetrucks, I'm not sure, and I just shot some general film on the area. I have since searched that film to see if I could see any face in it that would have been important to this.

Mr. BALL. Leaving the building?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; but I haven't found any except that of officers arriving and just people generally in the area; none of it, though, that you could--I spent several days at this, I guess during January when things had calmed down. I was on the side street of the building, around the front of the building and in the intersection for the next 10 minutes, then I went across the street to the courthouse and phoned several news reports to C.B.S. in New York and described what was taking place in the building at that time. There were firemen with ladders in front of the building and officers running in and out and they cordoned off the building and kept the spectators out of the building, but there was quite a time lapse between the time the shots were fired and the time anyone checked the building. The main effort was to run to the railroad yards instead of the School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Mr. Underwood, this will be typed up and you can waive signature if you wish or you can sign it if you wish.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I don't have to sign it. I will waive signature.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES N. CRAWFORD

The testimony of James N. Crawford was taken at 11:15 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Crawford, I'm Joe Ball and this is Lillian Johnson.

Mr. CRAWFORD. Glad to know you. I know Lillian Johnson. How is Irving, by the way?

Mr. BALL. Will you stand up, please, and hold up your right hand?

Mr. CRAWFORD (complying).

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?