Chapter II: Part 2

Dr. PERRY. The surmise was made that if the point of entry were in the neck, how would it have happened, and that is the way I would have reconstructed it. Again, this was speculation.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you denominate it clearly as speculation?

Dr. PERRY. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Or, what could have been as opposed to what your opinion was?

Dr. PERRY. I did. I said this was conceivable--this was possible, but again, Dr. Clark and I emphasized again that we did not know whether there was one or two bullets.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you express any view as to whether it might have been one bullet or two bullets or either, or what?

Dr. PERRY. I said I did not know.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you asked any other questions at that press conference that you can recollect as being important at this time?

Dr. PERRY. Someone did ask us about Mrs. Kennedy, and I recall that I mentioned that I did not speak to her, but that she was very composed and very quiet.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you a part of any other press conferences?

Dr. PERRY. Yes; I was.

Mr. SPECTER. And when did the next one occur?

Dr. PERRY. There were several organized press conferences that occurred in the administration suite in the hospital, Mr. Specter, and I don't know the exact times of these. There were several later that afternoon. There were some the following day, on Saturday, also held in the administrator's office, and then there were subsequent conferences in relation to the other incident that occurred on Sunday with Mr. Oswald. I don't know how many there were.

Mr. SPECTER. Were all these conferences set up by the administration of the hospital?

Dr. PERRY. They were all conducted here. They weren't necessarily--I wouldn't say--set up by the administration. They were done here at the hospital, with one exception, of which you are aware, that I spoke with you about the gentleman that came to me when I was out of town.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you elaborate upon what occurred on that occasion, please?

Dr. PERRY. I had taken the course of complying with the press insofar as was possible about what I could speak that was common knowledge and which had already been covered at the initial press conference. I had done that in the administrative suite or in the hospital or in the medical school under an organized situation as opposed to doing it, say, at home.

I left town Monday following the incident on Sunday with Oswald, in order to secure a little bit of rest for myself and my family, and approximately 36 hours later, members of the press had located me and requested an interview, which I granted, denying any photographs and the interview consisted of essentially the same thing that I had given to the previous press conference at the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was that interview conducted?

Dr. PERRY. That was in McAllen, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. In the course of all of these press conferences did you say anything other than that which you have already related you said during the course of the first press conference?

Dr. PERRY. That would require a little bit of thought. I don't think in essence I said anything different. Of course, the wording certainly would have been different. I subsequently had a little bit more knowledge about the initial episode attendant of course upon my discussions with the other doctors and the writing out of our statements, knowledge which I did not have initially, which may have made subsequent statements perhaps more accurate as regards to time and people, but in essence, things that I did and things that I said that I did are essentially the same in all of these.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, I now show you a group of papers heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 392, and I turn to two sheets which are dated November 22, 1963, which have the name "Perry" beside the doctor and purport to bear your signature, and the time--1630 hours, 22 November 1963, and I ask you if this is a photostatic copy of the handwritten report which you submitted concerning the attention you gave to the President on the day of the assassination?

Dr. PERRY. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. Is this your signature appearing on the second sheet?

Dr. PERRY. That is my signature.

Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth herein true and correct?

Dr. PERRY. They are, to the best of my knowledge, correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, have contents of the autopsy report conducted at Bethesda Naval Hospital been made available to you?

Dr. PERRY. They have.

Mr. SPECTER. And are the findings in the autopsy report consistent with your observations and conclusions concerning the source and nature of the President's wounds?

Dr. PERRY. Yes; they are. I think there are no discrepancies at all. I did not have that information initially, and as a result was somewhat confused about the nature of the wounds, as I noted--I could not tell whether there was one or two bullets, or from whence they came, but the findings of the autopsy report are quite compatible with those findings which I noted at the time that I saw the President.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you noted in the autopsy report the reference to the presence of a wound on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula, being 7 by 4 mm. in oval dimension and being located 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process?

Dr. PERRY. Yes; I saw that.

Mr. SPECTER. Assuming that was a point of entry of a missile, which parenthetically was the opinion of the three autopsy surgeons, and assuming still further that the missile which struck the President at that spot was a 6.5-mm. jacketed bullet shot from a rifle at a distance of 166 to 250 feet, having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, and that upon entering the President's body, the bullet traveled between two strap muscles, through a fascia channel, without violating the pleural cavity, striking the trachea, causing the damage which you testified about being on the interior of the President's throat, and exited from the President's throat in the wound which you have described in the midline of his neck, would your findings and observations as to the nature of the wound on the throat be consistent with the set of facts I just presented to you?

Dr. PERRY. It would be entirely compatible.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis for your conclusion that the situation that I presented to you would be entirely compatible with your observations and findings?

Dr. PERRY. The wound in the throat, although as I noted, I did not examine it minutely, was fairly small in nature, and an undeformed, unexpanded missile exiting at rather high speed would leave very little injury behind, since the majority of its energy was expended after it had left the tissues.

Mr. SPECTER. And would the hole that you observed on the President's throat then be consistent with such an exit wound?

Dr. PERRY. It would. There is no way to determine from my examination as to exactly how accurately I could depict an entrance wound from an exit wound, without ascertaining the entire trajectory. Such a wound could be produced by such a missile.

Mr. SPECTER. Were any facts on trajectory available to you at the time of the press conferences that you described?

Dr. PERRY. They were not.

Mr. SPECTER. In response to an earlier question which I asked you, I believe you testified that you did not have sufficient facts available initially to form an opinion as to the source or direction of the cause of the wound, did you not?

Dr. PERRY. That's correct, although several leading questions were directed toward me at the various conferences.

Mr. SPECTER. And to those leading questions you have said here today that you responded that a number of possibilities were present as to what might have happened?

Dr. PERRY. That's correct. I had no way of ascertaining, as I said, the true trajectory. Often questions were directed as to--in such a manner as this: "Doctor, is it possible that if he were in such and such a position and the bullet entered here, could it have done that?" And my reply, "Of course, if it were possible, yes, that is possible, but similarly, it did not have to be so, necessarily."

Mr. SPECTER. So that, from the physical characteristics which you observed in and of themselves, you could not come to any conclusive opinion?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I could not, although I have been quoted, I think, as saying, and I might add parenthetically, out of context, without the preceding question which had been directed, as saying that such was the case, when actually, I only admitted that the possibility existed.

Mr. SPECTER. And in the hypothetical of the rather extended nature that I just gave you that your statement that that is consistent with what you found, is that also predicated upon the veracity of the factors, which I have asked you to assume?

Dr. PERRY. That is correct, sir. I have no way to authenticate either by my own knowledge.

Mr. SPECTER. Has your recollection of the nature of the President's neck wound changed at any time from November 22 to the present time?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir. I recall describing it initially as being between 3 and 5 cm. in size and roughly spherical in shape, not unlike a rather large puncture wound, I believe is the word I used initially.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever changed your opinion on the possible alternatives as to what could have caused the President's wounds?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I have no knowledge even now of my own as to the cause of the wounds. All I can report on is what I saw, and the wound is that as I have described it. It could have been caused conceivably by any number of objects.

Mr. SPECTER. So, that the wound that you saw on the President's neck would be consistent with an exit wound under the factors that I described to you?

Dr. PERRY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Or, it might be consistent with an entry wound under a different set of factors?

Dr. PERRY. That's correct, sir. I, myself, have no knowledge of that. I do not think that it is consistent, for example, with an exit wound of a large expanded bullet--voluntarily I would add that.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, would a jacketed 6.5-mm. bullet fit the description of a large expanded bullet?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; it would not.

Mr. SPECTER. Based on the information in the autopsy report about a 6- by 15-mm. hole in the lower part of the President's skull on the right side in conjunction with the large part of the skull of the President which you observed to be missing, would you have an opinion as to the source of the missile which inflicted those wounds?

Dr. PERRY. Since I did not see the initial wound which you mentioned, the smaller one, and only saw the large avulsive wound of the head and the scalp, there is no way for me to determine from whence it came.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, if you assume the presence of the first small wound, taking as a fact that there was such a wound, now, would that present sufficient information for you to formulate an opinion as to source or trajectory?

Dr. PERRY. Well, I couldn't testify as to exact source, but if the wound, the smaller wound that you noted were present, it could certainly result in the large avulsive wound as it exited from the skull. As to the ultimate source, there would still be no way for me to tell.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, could you tell sufficient to comment on whether it came from the front or back of the President?

Dr. PERRY. In the absence of other wounds of the head, the presence of the small wound which you described, in addition to the large avulsive wound of the skull and the scalp which I observed would certainly indicate that the two were related and would indicate both an entrance and an exit wound, if there were no other wounds.

Mr. SPECTER. And which would be the wound of entrance, then?

Dr. PERRY. The smaller wound--the smaller wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have occasion to talk via the telephone with Dr. James J. Humes of the Bethesda Naval Hospital?

Dr. PERRY. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. And will you relate the circumstances of the calls indicating first the time when they occurred.

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Humes called me twice on Friday afternoon, separated by about 30-minute intervals, as I recall. The first one, I, somehow think I recall the first one must have been around 1500 hours, but I'm not real sure about that; I'm not positive of that at all, actually.

Mr. SPECTER. Could it have been Saturday morning?

Dr. PERRY. Saturday morning--was it? It's possible. I remember talking with him twice. I was thinking it was shortly thereafter.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, the record will show.

Dr. PERRY. Oh, sure, it was Saturday morning--yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What made you change your view of that?

Dr. PERRY. You mean Friday?

Mr. SPECTER. Did some specific recollection occur to you which changed your view from Friday to Saturday?

Dr. PERRY. No, I was trying to place where I was at that time--Friday afternoon, and at that particular time, when I paused to think about it, I was actually up in the operating suite at that time, when I thought that he called initially. I seem to remember it being Friday, for some reason.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you when you received those calls?

Dr. PERRY. I was in the Administrator's office here when he called.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did he ask you, if anything?

Dr. PERRY. He inquired about, initially, about the reasons for my doing a tracheotomy, and I replied, as I have to you, during this procedure, that there was a wound in the lower anterior third of the neck, which was exuding blood and was indicative of a possible tracheal injury underlying, and I did the tracheotomy through a transverse incision made through that wound, and I described to him the right lateral injury to the trachea and the completion of the operation.

He subsequently called back--at that time he told me, of course, that he could not talk to me about any of it and asked that I keep it in confidence, which I did, and he subsequently called back and inquired about the chest tubes, and why they were placed and I replied in part as I have here. It was somewhat more detailed. After having talked to Drs. Baxter and Peters and I identified them as having placed it in the second interspace, anteriorly, in the midclavicular line, in the right hemithorax, he asked me at that time if we had made any wounds in the back. I told him that I had not examined the back nor had I knowledge of any wounds of the back.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate the circumstances surrounding an article which appeared about you in the Saturday Evening Post, Dr. Perry?

Dr. PERRY. The Saturday Evening Post contacted the department of surgery here, and talked with Dr. Tom Shires, chief of surgical services, in regard to a possible article on the treatment of the President. This was declined by us, and we requested that no such article be printed, and Dr. Shires informed me shortly thereafter about this conversation. Subsequently, an article was printed, which apparently was a copyrighted item. It first appeared in the New York Herald Tribune. It contained my picture and a picture of trauma room No. 1, and described the incidents surrounding the treatment of the President. Some of that information was obtained by personal interview of myself and Dr. Shires on Saturday morning, and I assume that the rest of it was obtained from various people here.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the content of that story accurate?

Dr. PERRY. There were certain inaccuracies--the overall content was fairly consistent--there were inaccuracies in identification of participants and there were some inaccuracies in regards to conversations purported to have been held, and I do not, however, have knowledge about some of the other references made in the article, since they were apparently based on interviews with people other than myself.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, have you talked to any representatives of the Federal Government about this matter prior to today?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate whom you have talked to and on what occasions? As best you can recollect it.

Dr. PERRY. Well, I talked to several people, and I regret that I did not keep a record of it, and I find at this time that a lot of these things such as Dr. Humes' call, I suppose I should have kept a little better record, since everything was so kaleidoscopic that I have a very difficult time putting the proper sequence on it. I talked to several people who identified themselves both by name and with credentials as being affiliated with the Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions have you talked with Secret Service personnel?

Dr. PERRY. At least three times, sir. Now, I can't give you the exact dates of these, and unfortunately the last two gentlemen, I can't even remember their names now.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the first gentleman?

Dr. PERRY. No, his either. I was trying to think of the last two. I indicated that they both had the same last name, but at the present time it escapes me.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell them in essence?

Dr. PERRY. Essentially what I have told you in regard to my impressions and my care of the President.

Mr. SPECTER. Has there ever been any variation in the information which you have given the Federal investigators?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; not in essence. There may have been a variation in wording or sequence of my presentation, but the treatment as I outlined it to you and as I outlined it to them, to the best of my knowledge, has been essentially consistent.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any other representatives of the Federal Government besides the Secret Service men?

Dr. PERRY. I talked to two gentlemen initially within--who identified themselves as being with the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I do not recall their names either.

Mr. SPECTER. What did they ask you about?

Dr. PERRY. Essentially the same questions in regard to what I might speculate as to the origin of the missiles and their trajectory, and I replied to them as I have to you that I could not ascertain this of my own knowledge, and described the wounds to the extent I saw them.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you set forth here today the same information which you gave to the FBI?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, I think this is considerably in more detail, being essentially the same thing.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now told me about all of the talks you have had with representatives of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. PERRY. I think I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I sit down and talk about the purpose of this deposition and the questions which I would be asking you on the record, before this deposition started?

Dr. PERRY. Yes; we did.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me the same information which you provided on the record here today?

Dr. PERRY. I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful in any way to the President's Commission?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, we appreciate your coming for your deposition today, and I have given you a letter requesting your presence in Washington on Monday morning at 9 o'clock and I would ask you, for the record, to acknowledge receipt of letter, if you will, please.

Dr. PERRY. Yes; I have the letter here and I will be there.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you, very much, sir. Let me ask you one more question, Dr. Perry, for the record, before we terminate this deposition. What experience have you had, if any, with gunshot wounds?

Dr. PERRY. I think in the course of my training here at Parkland, which is a city-county hospital and handles the great majority of the trauma cases that occur in Dallas County, that I have seen a fairly considerable number of traumatic wounds caused by knives, automobile accidents, gunshot wounds of various types.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any experience with gunshot wounds, in addition to that obtained here at Parkland?

Dr. PERRY. You mean, in the service?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Dr. PERRY. No, I had occasion to see only one gunshot wound while I was in the service.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you estimate how many gunshot wounds you have seen while you have been at Parkland?

Dr. PERRY. Probably it would be numbered in the hundreds.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any formal training in ballistics?

Dr. PERRY. No, other than the fact that I do some hunting and amateur hand loader.

Mr. SPECTER. Amateur what?

Dr. PERRY. Amateur hand loader--hand load ammunition.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much.

Dr. PERRY. All right. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DR. WILLIAM KEMP CLARK

The testimony of Dr. William Kemp Clark was taken at 11:50 a.m., on March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you stand up please, Dr. Clark, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. CLARK. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. You may be seated.

Dr. CLARK. Thank you.

Mr. SPECTER. The President's Commission is investigating all facts related to the Assassination of President Kennedy, and you have been asked to testify in this deposition proceeding relating to the medical treatment received by President Kennedy at Parkland Memorial Hospital and all facts incident thereto.

Dr. Clark, have you received a letter from the President's Commission enclosing a copy of the Executive Order establishing the Commission and a copy of a Senate and House Joint Resolution about the Commission, and a letter relating to the taking of testimony by the Commission?

Dr. CLARK. I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to proceed with this deposition today, even though 3 days have not elapsed between the time you received the letter and this morning?

Dr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. CLARK. William Kemp Clark.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline in a general way your educational background, please?

Dr. CLARK. Yes. I graduated from the University of Texas in Austin, 1944. I graduated from the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston in 1948. I interned at Indiana University Medical Center and was a resident in surgery there from 1948 to 1950. I spent 2 years in the Air Force and then took my residency in neurological surgery at Columbia Presbyterian Hospital in New York City. This was from 1953 to 1956, at which time I came to the University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School, as chairman of the division of neurological surgery.

Would you like the professional qualifications?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; may I have the professional qualifications in summary form, if you will, please.

Dr. CLARK. I am board certified by the American Board of Neurological Surgery. I am a Fellow with the American College of Surgeons. I am a member of the Harvey Cushing Society.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the Harvey Cushing Society, by the way?

Dr. CLARK. It is the largest society of neurological surgeons in the world.

Mr. SPECTER. And what do your duties consist of with respect to the Southwestern Medical School of the University of Texas?

Dr. CLARK. I am in charge of the division of neurological surgery and carry the responsibility of administering this department or this division, to arrange the instruction of medical students in neurological surgery and to conduct research in this field.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties back on November 22, 1963?

Dr. CLARK. Essentially these. I also, as chairman of the division, have the responsibility as director of neurological surgery at Parkland Memorial Hospital which is the major teaching hospital of the medical school.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you receive notification on November 22, 1963, that the President had been wounded and was en route to this hospital?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know at approximately what time you got that notification?

Dr. CLARK. Approximately 12:20 or 12:30.

Mr. SPECTER. And what action, if any, did you take as a result of receiving that notification?

Dr. CLARK. I went immediately to the emergency room at Parkland Hospital. I was in the laboratory at Southwestern Medical School when this word reached me by phone from the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. And at approximately what time did you then arrive at the emergency room?

Dr. CLARK. I would estimate it took a minute and a half to two minutes, so I would guess that I arrived approximately 12:30.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was present, if anyone, upon your arrival, attending to the President?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Jenkins, that is M. T. Jenkins, I suppose I ought to say, Dr. Ronald Jones, Dr. Malcolm Perry, Dr. James Carrico; arriving either with me or immediately thereafter were Dr. Robert McClelland, Dr. Paul Peters, and Dr. Charles Baxter.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe the President's condition to be on your arrival there?

Dr. CLARK. The President was lying on his back on the emergency cart. Dr. Perry was performing a tracheotomy. There were chest tubes being inserted. Dr. Jenkins was assisting the President's respirations through a tube in his trachea. Dr. Jones and Dr. Carrico were administering fluids and blood intravenously. The President was making a few spasmodic respiratory efforts. I assisted in withdrawing the endotracheal tube from the throat as Dr. Perry was then ready to insert the tracheotomy tube. I then examined the President briefly.

My findings showed his pupils were widely dilated, did not react to light, and his eyes were deviated outward with a slight skew deviation.

I then examined the wound in the back of the President's head. This was a large, gaping wound in the right posterior part, with cerebral and cerebellar tissue being damaged and exposed. There was considerable blood loss evident on the carriage, the floor, and the clothing of some of the people present. I would estimate 1,500 cc. of blood being present.

As I was examining the President's wound, I felt for a carotid pulse and felt none. Therefore, I began external cardiac massage and asked that a cardiotachioscope be connected. Because of my position it was difficult to administer cardiac massage. However, Dr. Jones stated that he felt a femoral pulse.

Mr. SPECTER. What is a femoral pulse?

Dr. CLARK. A femoral artery is the main artery going to the legs, and at the junction of the leg and the trunk you can feel the arterial pulsation in this artery. Because of my position, cardiac massage was taken over by Dr. Malcolm Perry, who was more advantageously situated.

Mr. SPECTER. What did the cardiotachioscope show at that time?

Dr. CLARK. By this time the cardiotachioscope, we just call it a cardiac monitor for a better word----

Mr. SPECTER. That's a good word.

Dr. CLARK. The cardiotachioscope had been attached and Dr. Fouad Bashour had arrived. There was transient electrical activity of the President's heart of an undefined type. Approximately, at this time the external cardiac massage became ineffectual and no pulsations could be felt. At this time it was decided to pronounce the President dead.

Mr. SPECTER. At what time was this fixed?

Dr. CLARK. Death was fixed at 1 p.m.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that a precise time or an approximate time, or in what way did you fix the time of death at 1 o'clock?

Dr. CLARK. This was an approximation as it is, first, extremely difficult to state precisely when death occurs. Secondly, no one was monitoring the clock, so an approximation of 1 o'clock was chosen.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was it who actually fixed the time of death?

Dr. CLARK. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you have any part in the filling out of the death certificate?

Dr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do with respect to that?

Dr. CLARK. I filled out the death certificate at the request of Dr. George Burkley, the President's physician at the White House, signed the death certificate as a registered physician in the State of Texas, and gave this to him to accompany the body to Washington.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you advise anyone else in the Presidential party of the death of the President?

Dr. CLARK. Yes; I told Mrs. Kennedy, the President's wife, of his death.

Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did she respond to you?

Dr. CLARK. She told me that she knew it and thanked me for our efforts.

Mr. SPECTER. Were any bullets or parts of bullets found in the President's body?

Dr. CLARK. Not by me, nor did I see any such missiles recovered at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you a part of any press conference which followed on the day of the assassination?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. SPECTER. And who made the arrangements for the press conference?

Dr. CLARK. Mr. Malcolm Kilduff, the Presidential press secretary.

Mr. SPECTER. At what time did the press conference occur?

Dr. CLARK. Approximately 2:30.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was it held?

Dr. CLARK. It was held in room 101-102, Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. What mechanical instruments were used, if any, by the press at the conference?

Dr. CLARK. Tape recorders and television cameras, as well as the usual note pads and pencils, and so forth.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was interviewed during the course of the press conference and photographed?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Malcolm Perry and myself.

Mr. SPECTER. No one else?

Dr. CLARK. No.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you say then in the course of that press conference?

Dr. CLARK. I described the President's wound in his head in very much the same way as I have described it here. I was asked if this wound was an entrance wound, an exit wound, or what, and I said it could be an exit wound, but I felt it was a tangential wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Which wound did you refer to at this time?

Dr. CLARK. The wound in the head.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you describe at that time what you meant by "tangential"?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. What definition of "tangential" did you make at that time?

Dr. CLARK. As I remember, I defined the word "tangential" as being--striking an object obliquely, not squarely or head on.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe at this time in somewhat greater detail the consequences of a tangential wound as contrasted with another type of a striking?

Dr. CLARK. Let me begin by saying that the damage suffered by an organ when struck by a bullet or other missile----

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that I interrupted the deposition for about 2 minutes to ascertain what our afternoon schedule would be here because the regular administration office ordinarily closes at 12 o'clock, which was just about 15 minutes ago, and then we resumed the deposition of Dr. Clark as he was discussing the concept of tangential and other types of striking.

Go ahead, Doctor.

Dr. CLARK. The effects of any missile striking an organ or a function of the energy which is shed by the missile in passing through this organ when a bullet strikes the head, if it is able to pass through rapidly without shedding any energy into the brain, little damage results, other than that part of the brain which is directly penetrated by the missile. However, if it strikes the skull at an angle, it must then penetrate much more bone than normal, therefore, is likely to shed more energy, striking the brain a more powerful blow.

Secondly, in striking the bone in this manner, it may cause pieces of the bone to be blown into the brain and thus act as secondary missiles. Finally, the bullet itself may be deformed and deflected so that it would go through or penetrate parts of the brain, not in the usual direct line it was proceeding.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, referring back to the press conference, did you define a tangential wound at that time?

Dr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what else did you state at the press conference at 2:30 on November 22?

Dr. CLARK. I stated that the President had lost considerable blood, that one of the contributing causes of death was this massive blood loss, that I was unable to state how many wounds the President had sustained or from what angle they could have come.

I finally remember stating that the President's wound was obviously a massive one and was insurvivable.

Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Perry say at that time, during the course of that press conference, when the cameras were operating?

Dr. CLARK. As I recall, Dr. Perry stated that there was a small wound in the President's throat, that he made the incision for the tracheotomy through this wound. He discovered that the trachea was deviated so he felt that the missile had entered the President's chest. He asked for chest tubes then to be placed in the pleural cavities. He was asked if this wound in the throat was an entrance wound or an exit wound. He said it was small and clean so it could have been an entrance wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything else that you can recollect now in response to the question of whether it was a wound of entrance or exit?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I cannot recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you a part of a second press conference, Dr. Clark?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And when did that second press conference occur?

Dr. CLARK. On Saturday, the 23d.

Mr. SPECTER. At about what time?

Dr. CLARK. Sometime in the morning, as I recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Going back to the first press conference for just a minute, which television networks were involved on that?

Dr. CLARK. Without sounding facetious, everyone, including some I had never heard of.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you recollect any besides the three major networks--ABC, CBS, and NBC?

Dr. CLARK. This is all I remember. I remember seeing in the room two reporters from Dallas newspapers whom I know and the radio and television stations were also present.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, going back to the second conference which I had started asking you about, had you had an opportunity to tell me what time of day that was?

Dr. CLARK. It was in the morning, as I recall.

Mr. SPECTER. And what television stations or networks were involved in that conference?

Dr. CLARK. Again, all three major networks, and I believe through our local affiliates. It does not seem as though this one was as jammed and as full as the first one.

Mr. SPECTER. And who arranged that press conference?

Dr. CLARK. That press conference was arranged by Mr. Steve Landregan, assistant administrator and public relations officer for the hospital. This is his office.

Mr. SPECTER. And who spoke at that press conference while the television cameras were grinding?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Perry and myself.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you say at that time?

Dr. CLARK. Essentially the same thing as I had on the first press conference, again defining tangential, and again describing the President's wound as being massive and unsurvivable.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Perry, at that time, say?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Perry said very little. He described the President's condition as he first saw him, when he was first called, and he described the manner in which he was called to the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about whether the neck wound was a point of entry or exit?

Dr. CLARK. I do not remember--I specifically discussed this--may I add something to what I said in the first press conference?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; please do, if you find something that comes to mind, please feel free to add that.

Dr. CLARK. All right. Let me check what I remember Dr. Perry said at the first press conference. He was asked if the neck wound could be a wound of entrance or appeared to be a wound of exit, and Dr. Perry said something like "possibly or conceivably," or something of this sort.

Mr. SPECTER. And, did he elaborate as to how that projectory would have been possible in that press conference?

Dr. CLARK. He did not elaborate on this. One of the reporters with gestures indicated the direction that such a bullet would have to take, and Dr. Perry quite obviously had to agree that this is the way it had to go to get from there to the top of his head.

Mr. SPECTER. But that was a possible trajectory under the circumstances?

Dr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How would that have been postulated in terms of striking specific parts of the body?

Dr. CLARK. Well, on a speculation, this would mean that the missile would have had to have been fired from below--upward or that the President was hanging upside down.

Me. SPECTER. Did Dr. Perry discuss anything with you prior to that second conference about a telephone call from Washington, D.C.?

Dr. CLARK. Yes; he did.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate briefly what Dr. Perry told you about that subject?

Dr. CLARK. Yes; Dr. Perry stated that he had talked to the Bethesda Naval Hospital on two occasions that morning and that he knew what the autopsy findings had shown and that he did not wish to be questioned by the press, as he had been asked by Bethesda to confine his remarks to that which he knew from having examined the President, and suggested that the major part of this press conference be conducted by me.

Mr. SPECTER. Was anyone else present when he expressed those thoughts to you?

Dr. CLARK. I believe that Mr. Price and Dr. Shires were present. I could be wrong on that.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you a part of a third press conference?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And when did that occur?

Dr. CLARK. During the following week--I have forgotten exactly the day.

Mr. SPECTER. And what networks were involved at that time?

Dr. CLARK. It was CBS.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that a television conference?

Dr. CLARK. Yes; this was filmed.

Mr. SPECTER. And who arranged that conference?

Dr. CLARK. Again, Mr. Landregan.

Mr. SPECTER. And who spoke at that conference?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Shaw, Dr. Shires, Dr. Baxter, Dr. McClelland, Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Gieseke, and myself.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Perry there at that time?

Dr. CLARK. Yes; Dr. Perry was there.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly what you said at that time, if it differed in any way from what you said before?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir; it did not.

Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Perry say at that time?

Dr. CLARK. Essentially the same thing that he had said before, describing the wound in the throat, describing the condition of the President, how he was called and so forth.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he comment at that time as to whether it was an entrance wound or an exit wound or what?

Dr. CLARK. I don't remember.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Shaw say at that time?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Shaw described Governor Connally's chest wound. He described what was done for him, the operation in some detail. He described the fact that Governor Connally was conscious up until the time he was anesthetized in the operating room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Shires say at that time?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Shires described the wounds suffered by Oswald and what was done in an attempt to save him.

Mr. SPECTER. And how about Dr. Gieseke, what did he say?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Gieseke corroborated Dr. Shaw's statements regarding Governor Connally's condition and his remaining conscious until he was anesthetized by Dr. Gieseke.

Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Baxter say at that conference?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Baxter described President Kennedy's condition as he saw it, stated that he had assisted in the placing in the chest tubes on President Kennedy, and that he had been present at Oswald's operation.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Baxter describe the neck wound that President Kennedy suffered with specific respect as to whether it was point of entry or exit?

Dr. CLARK. I don't remember--I don't believe he did.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have we covered all the doctors who spoke at that press conference?

Dr. CLARK. Except Dr. Jenkins.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Jenkins say at that time?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Jenkins described being called to attend President Kennedy, how he got there with his anesthesia machine, that he found an endotracheal tube had already been inserted. He hooked up and he described the activities in the emergency room, operating room No. 1, and he described the stopping of the President's heart and the decision to pronounce him dead. He went ahead to describe the operation on Mr. Oswald and the extent of blood loss, etc., which he had sustained.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you involved in still a subsequent press conference?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. SPECTER. And with whom was that press conference?

Dr. CLARK. This was with NBC and was approximately 2 weeks after the assassination.

Mr. SPECTER. And who arranged that press conference?

Dr. CLARK. Mr. Landregan.

Mr. SPECTER. And was that filmed?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, that was also filmed.

Mr. SPECTER. And who spoke at that time?

Dr. CLARK. I spoke alone as a representative of the department and so stated in the conference.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you say at that time?

Dr. CLARK. Essentially the same thing as had been stated before.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you a part of still another press conference?

Dr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. When was that?

Dr. CLARK. The week after the assassination.

Mr. SPECTER. And with whom was that press conference?

Dr. CLARK. With BBC.

Mr. SPECTER. Who arranged that?

Dr. CLARK. Mr. Landregan, again.

Mr. SPECTER. And did anyone else participate in that press conference with you?

Dr. CLARK. No.

Mr. SPECTER. And was that televised, filmed, or simply recorded?

Dr. CLARK. It was simply recorded.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you say at that time?

Dr. CLARK. Exactly the same thing as I have said at the previous conferences, describing the President's condition, his wound, and what transpired after I arrived.

Mr. SPECTER. At any of the press conferences were you asked about a hole on the left side of the President's head?

Dr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. At which conference or conferences?

Dr. CLARK. I was asked about this at the CBS conference and I stated that I personally saw no such wound.

Mr. SPECTER. And who asked you about it at that time, if you recall?

Dr. CLARK. The man who was conducting the conference. This was brought up by one of the physicians, I think Dr. McClelland, that there was some discussion of such a wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. McClelland say that he had seen such a wound?

Dr. CLARK. No.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the origin, if you know, as to the inquiry on the wound, that is, who suggested that there might have been a wound on the left side?

Dr. CLARK. I don't recall--I don't recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Had there been some comment that the priests made a comment that there was a wound on the left side of the head?

Dr. CLARK. I heard this subsequently from one of the reporters who attended the press conference with NBC.

Mr. SPECTER. Were priests actually in trauma room 1?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were they in relation to the President at that time?

Dr. CLARK. They were on the right side of the President's body.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you described the massive wound at the top of the President's head, with the brain protruding; did you observe any other hole or wound on the President's head?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe, to make my question very specific, a bullet hole or what appeared to be a bullet hole in the posterior scalp, approximately 2.5 cm. laterally to the right, slightly above the external occipital protuberant, measuring 15 by 6 mm.

Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I did not. This could have easily been hidden in the blood and hair.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullet wounds or any other wound on the back side of the President?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the President ever turned over while he was in the emergency room?

Dr. CLARK. Not in my presence; no, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you leave before, with, or after all the other doctors who were in attendance?

Dr. CLARK. I left after all the other doctors who were in attendance, because I stayed with Dr. Burkley until we had the death certificate signed and the arrangements had been made to transport the President's body out of Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. You say Dr. Burkley or Buckley?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Burkley.

Mr. SPECTER. That's the President's private physician?

Dr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, would your observations be consistent with some other alleged facts in this matter, such as the presence of a lateral wound measuring 15 by 6 mm. on the posterior scalp approximately 2.5 cm. laterally to the right and slightly above the external occipital proturberant--that is to say, could such a hole have been present without your observing it?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, in the presence of this much destruction of skull and scalp above such a wound and lateral to it and the brief period of time available for examination--yes, such a wound could be present.

Mr. SPECTER. The physicians, surgeons who examined the President at the autopsy specifically, Commander James J. Humes, H-u-m-e-s (spelling); Commander J. Thornton Boswell, B-o-s-w-e-l-l (spelling), and Lt. Col. Pierre A. Finck, F-i-n-c-k (spelling), expressed the joint opinion that the wound which I have just described as being 15 by 6 mm. and 2.5 cm. to the right and slightly above the external occipital protuberant was a point of entrance of a bullet in the President's head at a time when the President's head was moved slightly forward with his chin dropping into his chest, when he was riding in an open car at a slightly downhill position. With those facts being supplied to them in a hypothetical fashion, they concluded that the bullet would have taken a more or less straight course, exiting from the center of the President's skull at a point indicated by an opening from three portions of the skull reconstructed, which had been brought to them--would those findings and those conclusions be consistent with your observations if you assumed the additional facts which I have brought to your attention, in addition to those which you have personally observed?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, in the line of your specialty, could you comment as to the status of the President with respect to competency, had he been able to survive the head injuries which you have described and the total wound which he had?

Dr. CLARK. This, of course, is a question of tremendous importance. Just let me state that the loss of cerebrellar tissue would probably have been of minimal consequence in the performance of his duties. The loss of the right occipital and probably part of the right parietal lobes would have been of specific importance. This would have led to a visual field deficit, which would have interfered in a major way with his ability to read, not the interpretation of reading matter per se, but the acquisition of information from the printed page. He would have had specific difficulty with finding the next line in a book or paper. This would have proven to be a specific handicap in getting information on which, as the President of the United States, he would have to act.

How much damage he would have had to his motor system, that is, the ability to control or coordinate his left extremities, I would not know. This conceivably could have been a problem in enabling him to move about, to appear in public, et cetera. Finally, and probably most important, since the brain, as far as at its higher levels, largely as a unit, the loss of this much brain tissue likely would have impaired his ability in abstract reasoning, imagination; whereas, the part of the President's brain struck is not that part specifically concerned with these matters. The effect of loss of considerable brain tissue does affect the total performance of the organ in these matters. There would be grave doubts in my mind as to our ability as physicians to give a clear answer regarding his ability to function as President of the United States.

Our ability to judge this is sometimes sorely tried when dealing with people with considerably less intellectual and moral demands made upon them.

Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, did you prepare certain written reports based on your participation in the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. And I now show you a document which has been supplied to the President's Commission, which we have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 392, and I now show you the second and third sheets, which purport to be the summary made by you and ask if that was prepared by you?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. SPECTER. And, are the facts set forth in those two sheets true and correct?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And I now show you a 2-3/4-page summary which purports to bear your signature, being dated November 22, 1963, and I ask you if that, in fact, is your signature?

Dr. CLARK. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. And, was, in fact, this report made in your own hand concerning the treatment which you rendered to the President?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth therein true and correct?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you made any other written report or other writings of any sort concerning this matter?

Dr. CLARK. No; I have not.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed or discussed this matter with any Federal representative prior to today?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And whom did you talk to?

Dr. CLARK. I talked to an FBI agent a few days after the assassination, in Mr. Jack Price's office.

Mr. SPECTER. And who is Mr. Price, for the record at this point?

Dr. CLARK. He is the administrator of Parkland Memorial Hospital. This agent asked me if I had recovered any missiles or fragments of missiles from the President's body. I said I did not, and he asked me if I knew of anyone in Parkland Hospital who had recovered such evidence and I assured him I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he ask you anything further?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell him anything further?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir. I offered to answer any questions he might have asked and he said that was all he wished to know.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you talk to any other representative of the Federal Government at any time before today?

Dr. CLARK. Yes; I talked to a member of the Secret Service approximately a month after the assassination. I talked to him on two occasions, once by phone, and he asked me if I had a copy of the written report submitted by Dr. Ronald Jones, and I told him I did not.

I subsequently talked to him in person. He showed me the summary that I prepared and sent to Dr. Burkley, the same document I just identified here, and my own handwritten report of the events of the afternoon of the 22d of November. He asked me if I prepared these and I told him I had. He asked me if I had any other written records. I told him I did not. He said, "Do you have any additional information than you have written?" I said I did not. He thanked me very much for coming.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now summarized all of the conversations you have had with any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you had any conversations with any representative of the State government prior to today?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Before you were sworn in to have your deposition taken, did you and I have a discussion about this matter?