Chapter XIII: Part 13

Mr. CRAWFORD. I swear.

Mr. BALL. My name is Joe Ball. I'm staff counsel with the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy and I have been authorized to question you and ask you to give us such information as you have as to the facts of the assassination and those things that you observed on November 22, 1963. Will you state your name for the court reporter?

Mr. CRAWFORD. My name is James N. Crawford.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I am deputy district clerk.

Mr. BALL. You received a request from the Commission in writing, did you not, requesting you to give this testimony?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I did.

Mr. BALL. You received it some time last week?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Actually, it came to the office Saturday. I did not receive it until Monday.

Mr. BALL. That will be Monday, March 30?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I was born in Greenville, Texas.

Mr. BALL. What was your general education?

Mr. CRAWFORD. High school in Greenville, Texas, and college at Texas A. & M.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that, just a general sketch of some of your occupations?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I worked for the Texas Company in New Orleans and have been in and out of the furniture business and in the oil business here in Dallas until I went with the county.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the county of Dallas?

Mr. CRAWFORD. About 10 years.

Mr. BALL. You are a deputy county clerk there?

Mr. CRAWFORD. District clerk.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, about around 12 o'clock or so, where were you?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I was in the office of the district clerk.

Mr. BALL. Did you later leave and go out into the street?

Mr. CRAWFORD. About 12:25, we left the office and went out to the corner of Houston and Elm.

Mr. BALL. You went with whom?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Mary Ann Mitchell.

Mr. BALL. She works in the office with you?

Mr. CRAWFORD. She is in the office with me.

Mr. BALL. What is her occupation in the office?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Assistant to the district clerk.

(At this point, Mr. James Underwood enters the hearing.)

Mr. BALL. Where is your office located in Dallas?

Mr. CRAWFORD. It's located on the ground floor of the Records Building.

Mr. BALL. What street?

Mr. CRAWFORD. That's Record and Elm--that's Commerce, isn't it, Jim?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. What's that?

Mr. CRAWFORD. What is the street just north of the courthouse--that's Elm.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. It's bordered by Elm, Main, Record, and Houston.

Mr. BALL. You are located on the corner of----

Mr. CRAWFORD. Elm.

Mr. BALL. Elm and----

Mr. CRAWFORD. And Record.

Mr. BALL. And Record, and then you walked which direction?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Well, actually, the courthouse is--I suppose our office would be considered on Elm and Houston.

Mr. BALL. When you left your office, you walked on what street?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Walked on Elm to Houston, rather than Record.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you walked west on Elm towards Houston?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Right.

Mr. BALL. To what corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. CRAWFORD. That would be the corner of the courthouse. Do you want the direction of the intersection?

Mr. BALL. Yes, where was it? Southeast, northwest corner of Elm?

Mr. CRAWFORD. It's the northwest corner of the courthouse.

Mr. BALL. The northwest corner of the courthouse--it's the southeast corner of the intersection?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Southeast corner of the intersection.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you watched the President pass?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I was at that location.

Mr. BALL. Which corner of the intersection?

Mr. CRAWFORD. The southeast corner of the intersection.

Mr. BALL. Where was the Texas School Book Depository Building from where you were standing?

Mr. CRAWFORD. It would be on the northwest corner of the intersection.

Mr. BALL. Directly across?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes; right.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a good view at that point of the south exposure of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I had a very good angle.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car pass?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I did.

Mr. BALL. And just tell me in your own words what you observed after that?

Mr. CRAWFORD. As I observed the parade, I believe there was a car leading the President's car, followed by the President's car and followed, I suppose, by the Vice President's car and, in turn, by the Secret Service in a yellow closed sedan. The doors of the sedan were open. It was after the Secret Service sedan had gone around the corner that I heard the first report and at that time I thought it was a backfire of a car but, in analyzing the situation, it could not have been a backfire of a car because it would have had to have been the President's car or some car in the cavalcade there. The second shot followed some seconds, a little time elapsed after the first one, and followed very quickly by the third one. I could not see the President's car----

Mr. BALL. At that time?

Mr. CRAWFORD. That's right; I couldn't even see the Secret Service car, at least I wasn't looking for it. As the report from the third shot sounded, I looked up. I had previously looked around to see if there was somebody shooting firecrackers to see if I could see a puff of smoke, and after I decided it wasn't a backfire from an automobile and as the third report was sounded, I looked up and from the far east corner of the sixth floor I saw a movement in the only window that was open on that floor. It was an indistinct movement. It was just barely a glimpse.

Mr. BALL. Which window?

Mr. CRAWFORD. That would be the far east window----

Mr. BALL. On the----

Mr. CRAWFORD. On the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. I turned to Miss Mitchell and made the statement that if those were shots they came from that window. That was based mainly on the fact of the quick movement observed in the window right at the conclusion of the report.

Mr. BALL. Could you give me any better description than just a movement? Could you use any other words to describe what you saw by way of color or size of what you saw moving?

Mr. CRAWFORD. If I were asked to describe it, I would say that it was a profile, somewhat from the waist up, but it was a very quick movement and rather indistinct and it was very light colored. It was either light colored or it was reflection from the sun. When the gun was found, or when a gun was found, I asked the question if it was white, simply because if it was a gun I saw, then it was either white or it was reflecting the sun so it would appear white or light colored.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any boxes in that window?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes, directly behind the window, oh possibly three feet or less, there were boxes stacked up behind the window and I believe it was the only place in the building that I observed where boxes were stacked just like that.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any boxes in the window?

Mr. CRAWFORD. No, I didn't see any. There wasn't any boxes in the window.

Mr. BALL. Did you stay there at that point very long, the southeast corner?

Mr. CRAWFORD. No; as I said. I couldn't observe the President's car and I had no actual knowledge that he had been shot, so realizing that we should get the information almost immediately from the radio which had been covering the motorcade--we had been listening to it prior to going on the street--I thought our best information would come from that, so we went, Miss Mitchell and I, went back into the office. I have no way of knowing the time. I would say it was a minute or--I would say a minute.

Mr. BALL. After you heard the shots, did you return to the office?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The movement that you saw that you describe as something light and perhaps a profile from the waist up, you mean it looked like a profile of a person?

Mr. CRAWFORD. That was--I had a hard time describing that. When I saw it, I automatically in my mind came to the conclusion that it was a person having moved out of the window. Now, to say that it was a brown haired, light skinned individual, I could not do that.

Mr. BALL. Could you tell whether it was a man or woman?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I could not.

Mr. BALL. You made a report to the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 10th of January?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Before I ask you about your report, did you have any impression as to the source of the sound, from what direction the sound came, the sound of the explosions?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes; I do. As I mentioned before, the sound, I thought it was a backfire in the cavalcade from down the hill, down the hill toward the underpass.

Mr. BALL. You mean west on Elm?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes, and that was a little confusing and in analyzing it later, evidently the report that I heard, and probably a lot of other people, the officers or the FBI, it evidently was a sound that was reflected by the underpass and therefore came back. It did not sound to me, ever, as I remember, the high-powered rifle sounding. It was not the sharp crack.

Mr. BALL. What caused you to look up at the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. CRAWFORD. The sound had to be coming from somewhere; the noise was being made at some place, so I didn't see anyone shooting firecrackers or anything else and I thought "this idiot surely shouldn't do such a thing," but if they were, where were they, and if they were shots, where were they coming from, and that caused me to search the whole area on Houston Street and in front of the Texas Depository on Elm Street and then up and that's how I happened to be looking up at the time, rather than observing things in the street, probably.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see any smoke?

Mr. CRAWFORD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. BALL. In your remark to Mary Ann Mitchell, did you say "if those were shots, they came from that window"?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That is what you reported to the FBI agent, also?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes, I suppose; at that time, I was still not absolutely sure that they were shots and that's why I said if they were shots. I was basing that, I am sure I was basing that mainly on the fact of this quick movement that I observed. In other words, if I were firing the shots, I would have jumped back immediately at the conclusion of them.

Mr. BALL. Later on, did you go back in the street and talk to someone?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to a deputy sheriff?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Allen Swett.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I told him to have the men search the boxes directly behind this window that was open on the sixth floor--the window in the far east corner.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell him anything of what you had seen?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I don't think so. I think I was so amazed that I could walk across the street and walk up to this building that was supposedly under surveillance and the man had not been--I say "the man"--there had not been anyone apprehended.

Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots that you walked up to Allen Swett and talked to him?

Mr. CRAWFORD. My guess is it could have been anywhere from 10-20 minutes. My guess would be around 15-20 minutes.

Mr. BALL. In the statement you made to the FBI agent, he reports you said you walked to the Texas School Book Depository where you contacted Deputy Sheriff Allen Swett and advised him of the movement you had seen in the sixth floor window?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I must have said something about the movement. I did tell him to search those windows, I think.

Mr. BALL. Could you in your own words give us your memory of what you told Allen Swett?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I would probably have said, as I remember it, that to have the men search--have someone search the boxes directly behind that window. I had seen some movement directly after the shots. That was, I think, all I said. I did not--there was no conversation and at the conclusion of my statement, he directed several men up there.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever go in the building yourself?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I did not and I still have not been in there.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all, Mr. Crawford. Thanks very much.

Mr. CRAWFORD. Thank you, Mr. Ball.

Mr. BALL. Incidentally, will you waive signature on this?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes; I will.

TESTIMONY OF MARY ANN MITCHELL

The testimony of Mary Ann Mitchell was taken at 2:30 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Miss Mitchell, will you stand up, please, and be sworn; hold up your right hand.

(Complying.)

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will be giving before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Miss MITCHELL. Mary Ann Mitchell.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Miss MITCHELL. I am a deputy district clerk.

Mr. BALL. For Dallas County?

Miss MITCHELL. For the county of Dallas.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work is that; do you work in the court?

Miss MITCHELL. No; I work in the main office of the clerk of the district courts.

Mr. BALL. Tell me something about your background--where were you born, where were you raised, what schools did you go to?

Miss MITCHELL. I was born in Roanoke, Tex., which is in Denton County, about 30 miles north of here; graduated from high school in Denton in 1942. I went to college for 2 years at Arlington and moved to Dallas and came to work here in June of 1944. I have held several secretarial and stenographic type jobs before I went to work for the county of Dallas and that was in 1950 and I have been there since then.

Mr. BALL. Since 1950, you have been with the county with the Clerk of the District Court of Dallas County?

Miss MITCHELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, about noontime, where were you?

Miss MITCHELL. About noontime?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Miss MITCHELL. I was in the office about noon.

Mr. BALL. Working?

Miss MITCHELL. Working, which is in the basement of the Records Building.

Mr. BALL. Did you leave there some time, leave the office to see the parade that morning?

Miss MITCHELL. Yes, as a matter of fact, I went up to see the parade since we are in the basement.

Mr. BALL. What time did you leave the building?

Miss MITCHELL. At possibly 12:25 or 12:27, something like that.

Mr. BALL. Whom were you with?

Miss MITCHELL. I left the office with Jim Crawford.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Miss MITCHELL. I went out onto the street and down to the corner of the building.

Mr. BALL. That means you would be on what corner of what streets?

Miss MITCHELL. I went out the Elm Street entrance of the building and I was on the corner of Elm and Record--I'm sorry, Elm and Houston.

Mr. BALL. Which corner?

Miss MITCHELL. I knew you were going to ask that and I decided it's probably the northwest corner. I am not good at directions.

Mr. BALL. Let's put it this way----

Miss MITCHELL. It's the corner diagonally across the intersection from the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. The Texas School Book Depository is on the northwest corner; that would put you on the southeast corner.

Miss MITCHELL. Yes, sir; I was thinking about which corner of the building.

Mr. BALL. The northwest corner of the building and the southeast corner of the intersection, is that right?

Miss MITCHELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you near the curb when you were standing?

Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I was on the curb.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car pass?

Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. Tell me in your own words what you noticed and what you heard after the President's car passed; what did you see and what did you hear?

Miss MITCHELL. Well, the President's car passed and, of course, I watched it as long as I could see it but, as I remember, immediately behind it was a car full of men with the top down and quite a few of them were standing and I assumed they were Secret Service men, so after the car turned the corner and started down the hill, I couldn't see over the heads of the standing men for very long, so then I turned back to watch the other people in the caravan, whatever you call it, and probably about the time the car in which Senator Yarborough was riding had just passed, I heard some reports. The first one--there were three--the second and third being closer together than the first and second and probably on the first one my thought was that it was a firecracker and I think on the second one I thought that some police officer was after somebody that wasn't doing right and by the third report Jim Crawford had said the shots came from the building and as I looked up there then we realized that if the shots were coming from that building there was bound to have been somebody shooting at the people in the cars.

Mr. BALL. You heard Jim Crawford say something about if they were shots--what were his words exactly?

Miss MITCHELL. Well, I'm not sure that he said--I think he just said, "Those shots came from that building," just assuming that everybody could have figured out by then that they were shots.

Mr. BALL. Did you look at the building?

Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody in any of the windows?

Miss MITCHELL. I don't remember. I understand there were some porters that were leaning out of the fifth floor windows but I don't remember whether I saw them or not. I know where I thought he was pointing and where I was looking I couldn't see anybody so I never was sure which window he thought he was pointing to.

Mr. BALL. Was he pointing?

Miss MITCHELL. I am almost sure that he was because I was trying to figure out exactly where he was.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that, if anything?

Miss MITCHELL. Well, looked back around at the crowd, I'm sure, because I expected to see the Secret Service men and police escorts just start pouring everywhere when we decided what the shots were and then looking at the people that were falling on the ground and started milling around and then I went back in the office.

Mr. BALL. And you did not come out again?

Miss MITCHELL. No; I did not come out again.

Mr. BALL. Did you, at any time, say anything like "oh, no, no" in reply to what Mr. Crawford said?

Miss MITCHELL. Well, yes, I'm sure I did.

Mr. BALL. In reply to what remark of his?

Miss MITCHELL. Oh, I don't know. I don't know possibly it was when he was talking about the shots coming from the building but I don't remember if he said anything else.

Mr. BALL. Well, if you excuse me just a minute, let me look in my notes here. These are the notes from which I refresh my memory here.

Miss MITCHELL. I can remember what I was saying and doing better than I can what other people were.

Mr. BALL. Is there anything else that you remember that you said?

Miss MITCHELL. Besides when I said something about "oh, no, no" or "oh, my goodness" or "oh, my God" or whatever I said?

Mr. BALL. Yes; that's right.

Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I said, "This is no place for us, let's get out of here." I thought if we would get out of their way, the police officers could work better.

Mr. BALL. That's when you left?

Miss MITCHELL. That's when I left and he came with me. I had locked the office and I had the key to the office still in my hand so I could get back in very fast.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Do you want to look this over and read it and sign it or do you want to waive signature?

Miss MITCHELL. Either way. We were out of the office such a short time because we had spotters in the building so we would know when the parade was coming and we could run out. We had so many people in the building who worked there upstairs and they called us when it was coming so we could go outside.

Mr. BALL. If you wish, we can waive your signature; the young lady will write it up and send it back to Washington, is that all right with you?

Miss MITCHELL. Yes; that's fine.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Thank you very much for coming up today.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. BARBARA ROWLAND

The testimony of Mrs. Barbara Rowland was taken at 4 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, will you stand and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name.

Mrs. ROWLAND. Barbara Rowland.

Mr. BELIN. Is it Miss or Mrs.?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Mrs.

Mr. BELIN. To whom are you married?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Arnold Lewis Rowland.

Mr. BELIN. Your husband has already gone to Washington to testify before the Commission in Washington, is that correct?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation right now? What are you doing?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I am a housewife.

Mr. BELIN. Are you a high school graduate?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Are you still attending high school?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No; but I plan to go back later.

Mr. BELIN. In the fall?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where is your husband working?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He's got a new job. He is working for Life Circulation Co., or corporation, I don't know which.

Mr. BELIN. What does he do?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He is a telephone solicitor.

Mr. BELIN. For magazine subscriptions?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Is your husband a high school graduate or not?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you meet while you were going to high school?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How old is your husband, by the way?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He is 18.

Mr. BELIN. When were you married?

Mrs. ROWLAND. We were married May 16, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. So you will be having your anniversary in another few weeks?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know if I got on the record your residence?

Mrs. ROWLAND. 1131A Phinney.

Mr. BELIN. Is that in Dallas?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Are you originally from Dallas?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You lived here all your life?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Except the summer we lived in Oregon.

Mr. BELIN. Is your husband originally from Dallas?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He is from Corpus Christi.

Mr. BELIN. Has he lived in Texas all of his life, do you know, or not?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No. He has lived in Texas and Kansas and Oregon and Arizona, and I don't know where else.

Mr. BELIN. When did he live in Kansas?

Mrs. ROWLAND. About 2 years ago, I think.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what he was doing when he was in Kansas?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He was going to school and working, I don't know what as. I think he worked in a cafe.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know how far your husband got through school?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, his credits are all mixed up. I think he lacks one or two semesters.

Mr. BELIN. Of completing high school?

Mrs. ROLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You said you were going back to school. Does he plan to keep working, or does he plan to go back to school?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He plans to go back to school sometime. I'm not sure when.

Mr. BELIN. To finish high school?

Mrs. ROWLAND. And college. Go to college, I think.

Mr. BELIN. Well, has he ever made any application for college yet, that you know of?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't know for certain.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know, or has he ever said to you that he has?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He told me he was going to make an application at Oregon State, and--but I don't know if he ever made any applications anywhere.

Mr. BELIN. Would you categorize yourself insofar as your grades that you got in high school, would they have been C's, B's, or A's, or what?

Mrs. ROWLAND. A's and a few B's.

Mr. BELIN. What was your major?

Mrs. ROWLAND. English.

Mr. BELIN. If you had one?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I was going to major in English, Math, and Spanish.

Mr. BELIN. All three?

Mrs. ROWLAND. In high school.

Mr. BELIN. What about your husband? Did you know what he was majoring in?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Math, I think.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know about what his grades were?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Varied.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by that?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He made A's and B's in some subjects, and he made C's and D's, I think, in other subjects.

Mr. BELIN. Was this before you were married?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. He says he has an A average, but I don't believe him.

Mr. BELIN. Why? Did he tell you that?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. He told me that, because I saw a few of his report cards.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I saw a few of his report cards and they weren't all A's.

Mr. BELIN. For what years would that have been?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't remember. I just saw them.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, I want to get just a little bit more background information. After you were married, were you employed at all or not?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I worked for Sanger Harris during the Christmas season this year, this past year.

Mr. BELIN. Other than that?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, I worked for about 3 days for a friend of mine at a dry goods store.

Mr. BELIN. What about your husband? What jobs has he held since you were married?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Let's see, he worked at West Foods in Salem,----

Mr. BELIN. Was this after you were married?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to Oregon after you were married?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. We were married May 16, and we went to Oregon about, we left the next day, and we got there about the 21st or something like that. He worked at West Foods in Salem; Exchange Lumber in Salem; Myron Frank in Salem, and after we moved back down here and----

Mr. BELIN. When did you move back down to Texas?

Mrs. ROWLAND. In September.

Mr. BELIN. Were these jobs that he held of the same type, or did he work first at one place and then----

Mrs. ROWLAND. One place and then another.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why he changed jobs, that you know of?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, the first job was dirty and difficult and he didn't like it.

Mr. BELIN. What was he doing then?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He was working in a mushroom plant.

Mr. BELIN. As what?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I think he was carrying them out, I don't know exactly what he was doing with them. Then he worked at Myron Frank which was a department store.

Mr. BELIN. What did he do there?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He worked as a cook.

Mr. BELIN. Is he a good cook?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Pretty good cook.

Mr. BELIN. Are you better than he is?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not a very good cook.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mrs. ROWLAND. Anyway, he worked there. It was a temporary job when he got it, and when the time, when the period was up, he got another job as a, what do you call it, a shipping clerk at the Exchange Lumber Co., and he worked there until a few days before we left.

Mr. BELIN. Then you went back to Dallas sometime in September?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did your husband do?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't remember the first job. He worked for Pizza Inn as a cook and he worked for Civic Reading Club as a telephone solicitation job, and he worked for P. F. Collier Co., as a salesman, and then he worked, now he is working for Life Circulation Co. as a telephone solicitor.

Mr. BELIN. How long did he have these jobs? The first one, how long did he work there, approximately?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't know. I think he worked at Pizza Inn for about two and a half months, maybe. And he worked for P. F. Collier for about 4 weeks, I think, but he didn't do anything there. I mean he wasn't very successful. And he worked for Civic Reading Club about 2 months, I guess.

Mr. BELIN. And now he is working for?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Life Circulation Co.

Mr. BELIN. Were you working at all during the fall, or what were you doing?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He worked for Sanger Harris during the Christmas season, too.

Mr. BELIN. Were you?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. That is the only job. That is all I have worked.

Mr. BELIN. Were you going to school at all in the fall, or not?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; at the beginning of the fall we were both going to school. But we couldn't quite afford to stay, and so because his job was only part-time----

Mr. BELIN. So did either one of you quit or both?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Both.

Mr. BELIN. About when did you both quit?

Mrs. ROLAND. In November, I believe it was.

Mr. BELIN. Would this have been before or after the shooting of President Kennedy?

Mrs. ROLAND. Well, we stopped going before the assassination, but we officially dropped afterwards.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this. On the morning of the assassination, where were you?

Mrs. ROLAND. We were on Houston Street near the drive-in entrance of the records building between Elm and Main Streets.

Mr. BELIN. Before that, where had you been that morning?

Mrs. ROWLAND. At my mother's home.

Mr. BELIN. You had been at your mother's home that morning from about when to when?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, we were living with my mother, and so from that morning when we got up, and we walked part way----

Mr. BELIN. When did you leave your mother's home, about?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I think it was about 10 or 10:30, and we caught the bus. We walked a few blocks toward town, because we thought we would be too late to come see him, and we caught the bus, I don't know exactly what time it was when we got to town, but I think it was about 11:30, and about 15 minutes before the motorcade came by is when he told me about the man up in the window.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, you caught a bus near your mother's place?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. About what time?

Mrs. ROWLAND. The Ledbetter bus.

Mr. BELIN. About what time do you think you caught the bus?

Mrs. ROLAND. I don't know, about 10:30, I guess.

Mr. BELIN. When did that get you downtown?

Mrs. ROWLAND. About 11. I don't know exactly. I don't remember times very well.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this. After you got downtown, what did you do?

Mrs. ROWLAND. We just stood there waiting for the motorcade.

Mr. BELIN. Well. I will kind of work backwards. How long did you stand waiting for the motorcade before the motorcade came by, if you remember?

Mrs. ROWLAND. About 25 minutes, I think.

Mr. BELIN. How long did it take you to get from the bus stop?

Mrs. ROWLAND. The bus stop was right there.

Mr. BELIN. Do you figure if the motorcade came by at around 12:30, you figure you got down to the spot at 12 or 12:05?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. If you got down to that spot at 12 or 12:05, how many minutes prior to that time do you think you got on the bus?

Mrs. ROWLAND. About 45.

Mr. BELIN. You figure it might have been a 45-minute bus ride?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. That would have meant that you would have got on the bus around 11:15 or so?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long you waited for the bus before you got it?

Mrs. ROWLAND. We were walking while waiting for the bus, and it was about, I guess, 20 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. So you figured you walked around about 20 minutes?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. So you figured you would have left your mother's home shortly before 11?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head yes?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right, did you notice anything while you were watching, waiting for the motorcade?

Mrs. ROWLAND. We saw an airplane. Now, while we were waiting for the motorcade, well, there was a man across the street who fainted in the park.

Mr. BELIN. You were standing now on what street?

Mrs. ROWLAND. On Houston Street.

Mr. BELIN. That would be on the east or the west side of Houston?

Mrs. ROWLAND. West side--east side.

Mr. BELIN. East side. In front of what building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. In front of the records, at the side of the records building.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know any particular spot that you were standing?

Mrs. ROWLAND. We were standing near the drive-in entrance. There is an elevator there, too.

Mr. BELIN. Near the elevator that comes out of the ground?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right, you said you noticed a man across the street fainted. Anything else that you and your husband noticed?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, my husband and I were talking about Mr. Stevenson's visit and the way the people had acted, and we were talking about security measures, and he said he saw a man on the sixth floor of the School Book Depository Building, and when I looked up there I didn't see the man, because I didn't know exactly what window he was talking about at first.

And when I found out which window it was, the man had apparently stepped back, because I didn't see him.

Mr. BELIN. Which window was it?

Mrs. ROWLAND. It was the far left-hand window.

Mr. BELIN. As you face the building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. It would be the window to the south side of the building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be on the eastern part of the south side or the western part of the south side?

Mrs. ROWLAND. West.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be the farthermost west window?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; the farthermost west pair of windows.

Mr. BELIN. The farthermost west pair of windows. What did your husband say to you?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, we assumed that it was a Secret Service man.

Mr. BELIN. But what did he say, if you remember?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He told me that he saw a man there who looked like he was holding a rifle, and that it must be a security man guarding the motorcade.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can remember that he told you?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when he told you that?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Nothing. I just generally agreed with him.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean "generally agree"? Did you see the man?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No; I didn't see the man, but I said I guess that was what it was.

Mr. BELIN. You mean you agreed that he must have been a security officer?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I notice you are not wearing glasses now. Do you wear glasses?

Mrs. BOWLAND. Yes; sometimes.

Mr. BELIN. Are you near-sighted or far-sighted?

Mrs. BOWLAND. Near-sighted.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any trouble looking at this window?

Mrs. BOWLAND. No; I saw the window plainly, and I saw some people hanging, looking out of some other windows, but he said that the man was standing in the background.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say about how far back?

Mrs. BOWLAND. I think he said about 12 feet, I don't know exactly.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say how much of the man he could see?

Mrs. BOWLAND. Apparently he could see at least from the waist up, because he said that the man was wearing a light shirt, and that he was holding the rifle at a port arms position.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether the man was white or colored?

Mrs. BOWLAND. He said he thought he was white.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether the man was an old man or a young man?

Mrs. BOWLAND. He said a young man.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether the man was fat or thin?

Mrs. BOWLAND. He said he was either tall or thin. I mean, if he was tall, he could have been well built, but if he was not very tall, then he was thin.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not the man had on a hat?

Mrs. BOWLAND. I don't think he said whether he did or not. But if he had seen a hat, I think he would have said so.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say what color hair the man had?

Mrs. BOWLAND. I am not positive.

Mr. BELIN. About how many minutes was this before the motorcade came by that he saw this?

Mrs. BOWLAND. About 15 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything else about the man?

Mrs. BOWLAND. Not that I remember, except that he was wearing a light colored shirt or jacket.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about any other people in any other windows?

Mrs. BOWLAND. No; I don't think so.

Mr. BELIN. Now, did you notice any other people standing in any other windows or leaning out?

Mrs. BOWLAND. I am not sure if I did at that moment.

Mr. BELIN. Later on?

Mrs. BOWLAND. I saw some people either earlier or later looking out the windows.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about any of the people you saw?

Mrs. BOWLAND. Some of them were colored men. I don't think I saw any women.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any white men?

Mrs. BOWLAND. I am not positive.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where you saw any of these Negro men?

Mrs. BOWLAND. On a lower floor, about the fourth floor, I think, and nearer the center window. The windows nearer the center.

Mr. BELIN. On some floor lower than the sixth floor, which you think was the fourth floor?

Mrs. BOWLAND. About the fourth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did you and your husband comment about these other men?

Mrs. BOWLAND. We may have said something about there being other people watching, I am not sure.

Mr. BELIN. Did you particularly watch the sixth floor because of the fact that you had seen or your husband had seen a person on the sixth floor?

Mrs. BOWLAND. We looked at it for a few minutes, but we didn't look back, and when we heard the shots, we didn't look back up there. I grabbed his hand and started running toward the car.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this now. From the time that you saw or your husband said he saw a man on the southwest part of the sixth floor, which you say was about 15 minutes before the motorcade came by, how much longer did you look back up at the building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Just about 2 or 3 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. After that?

Mrs. ROWLAND. About 2 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. You mean about 2 minutes after that time?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. So that would be up to a time of about 13 minutes before the motorcade came by?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever look back at the building after that period of time?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I may have glanced at it, but I don't remember looking back for the purpose of seeing the man.

Mr. BELIN. All right, or any man there?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Any man there.

Mr. BELIN. What were you doing from the 13 minutes on before the motorcade came until the time it came?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Just talking and looking.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you looking?

Mrs. ROWLAND. At the street and the other people, and we talked about some men who were carrying cameras.

Mr. BELIN. Now when you were standing watching the motorcade or standing watching the street scene, do you remember if your husband was to your right or to your left? Was he closer towards the School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No; he was to my left most of the time, I think.

Mr. BELIN. What was he doing?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Just standing there talking.

Mr. BELIN. Talking to you?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not if he ever looked back at the building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I wouldn't know for certain.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever tell you he was looking back at the building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever notice him looking back at the building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember.

Mr. BELIN. Was he generally looking at you when he was talking with you?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Not necessarily. He might have been looking around at the street or at the building.

Mr. BELIN. Or at anything?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else at that place then that you specifically remember before the motorcade came by? Did your husband say anything about seeing anyone in the building, or did you talk any more about the man with the rifle?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I really don't remember very much about what happened afterward. I mean it was just----

Mr. BELIN. I mean between, in the 15 minutes preceding the motorcade?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I remember hearing on the radio that the President was passing Ervay Street. It wasn't on our radio, somebody else's radio, and that is about all.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, what color dress were you wearing that day?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Oh, my, I am fairly certain I was either wearing a green suit or red and gray suit, but I am not positive.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of coat, if you were wearing a coat?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I was wearing a brown coat, brown suede coat.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what your husband was wearing?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He was wearing a plaid sports jacket, probably. I am not sure which sports jacket, but I think he was wearing a plaid sports jacket that was blue and had some black and grey in it.

Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing any overcoat over the sports jacket?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Oh, no; I wasn't wearing that brown coat, I don't think. I think I was wearing an olive coat. He probably had his overcoat, but it is more of a raincoat.

Mr. BELIN. Were you wearing gloves?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing gloves?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you wearing a hat?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No; a scarf.

Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing a hat, do you remember?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He might have been. He wears one sometimes. Sometimes he doesn't.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you remember about what happened prior to the time the motorcade came by?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, will you please tell us what happened as the motorcade went by?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, Mrs. Kennedy was wearing a blue--I mean a pink or maybe a rose--it was either pink or rose dress or suit, I couldn't say, because she was sitting. She had a pink hat or rose, the same shade as her dress.

And I remember noticing that the President's hair was sort of red, that is all. They were facing mainly toward the other side of the street and waving, and as they turned the corner we heard a shot, and I didn't recognize it as being a shot. I just heard a sound, and I thought it might be a firecracker.

And the people started laughing at first, and then we heard two more shots, and they were closer than the first and second, and that is all.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear all told?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Three.

Mr. BELIN. When you said you heard two more shots that were closer than the first and second, what did you mean?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I meant the second and third were closer than the first and second.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, did you have any idea where the shots came from or the sound?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, the people generally ran towards the railroad tracks behind the School Book Depository Building, and so I naturally assumed they came from there, because that is where all the policemen and everyone was going, and I couldn't tell where the sounds came from.

Mr. BELIN. So you just started over after them?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did your husband go with you?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; I grabbed his hand and he couldn't go anyplace else.

Mr. BELIN. Were you running or walking over there?

Mrs. ROWLAND. It wasn't a very fast run, but it wasn't a walk.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk about anything, about the man that you had seen in the window?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No. But he was reluctant to start running, and he might have been looking up there, I don't know. But we didn't say anything about the man.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got over there? Where did you run to?

Mrs. ROWLAND. To the colonnade over on the north side of Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. As Elm Street goes down to the freeway?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go?

Mrs. ROWLAND. We walked towards the railroad tracks, but the policeman wouldn't let anybody go further.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. ROWLAND. We just stood there and he was speculating on what had happened, and he was looking around at everything, and the policeman inspected a Coke drink bottle that was there, and my husband found a pen, very cheap ballpoint pen that you get as an advertisement, and he gave it to the policeman, and then he mentioned the man he had seen in the School Book Depository Building, and then the man took us to the records building.

Mr. BELIN. Who did your husband mention this to? Was this some police officer?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not certain. The first man he mentioned it to was wearing plain clothes, and we didn't see him again, I don't think. And then there were some other men who took us to the building. I don't know who they were.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you got to the building? Did you stay with your husband?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. He was questioned in the building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear what your husband said?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Could you describe what went on in the building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. When we first came in, we went into an office that had glass windows around it. There was a man sitting there with a child. I think it was a boy and he said that he had seen the President shot and he said that--he didn't say there were three shots, I think he said there was one, or maybe he said there were more than three, but he didn't say there were three shots.

Then we went out into an open area in the building, a fairly open area, and there were some reporters in there, and they started asking us questions which we didn't answer, because mainly we didn't have time.

Then we were taken into a very small office and a lady took his written statement and my statement, and there were three other people who came in, three other witnesses who come in.

There were two young men together, and one young lady who came in.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, when you gave your statement to the police and your husband gave his statement to the police, or to whoever the people were taking the statement, do you remember what your husband said?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. Do I have to tell you again?

Mr. BELIN. Well, did he say substantially what you said?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; I think so.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that he said that you haven't related here?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I believe he may have said that the man had dark hair. Either he said that the man had dark hair, or he didn't see what color the man's hair was. And he said just about the same thing I said here, I think.

Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else that was said there by your husband?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't remember anything else.

Mr. BELIN. Did your husband at that time say whether or not he had kept any watch on the window of the School Book Depository Building after he saw this man with the gun?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. You mean he----

Mrs. ROWLAND. He didn't say.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he had seen any other people in the windows of the School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; I am fairly certain that he said there were other people looking out the windows.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not there were any other people on that same floor looking out the windows?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not certain whether he said or not. But I know there weren't any other people on that floor looking out the windows that could be seen from the outside.

Mr. BELIN. How do you know that?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I mean I know they couldn't be seen from the outside, because I couldn't see them. I am nearsighted.

Mr. BELIN. Were you keeping any watch on the building after the time you saw the man with the rifle?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well----

Mr. BELIN. Did you look up at that building from time to time?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, I didn't pay any special attention to the building, but I am sure I glanced at the building more than once afterwards, because I can't just stand and stare in one direction.

Mr. BELIN. Do you mean you were just glancing at that building as you were glancing at other places?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you were glancing at that building, do you remember whether you glanced at it, say, within 10 minutes prior to the motorcade?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't remember. But most of the windows on that floor were closed, and the people who were looking out usually were looking out at an open window.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people look out of any open windows?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. About how many did you see all told, if you can remember?

Mrs. ROLAND. Two or three, I think.

Mr. BELIN. Any more than two or three looking out of windows?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not any of those that you saw looking out of windows were looking out of the sixth floor?

Mrs. ROWLAND. They weren't.

Mr. BELIN. They were not? Were they on any floor higher than the sixth floor?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. Were they all on floors lower than the sixth floor?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did your husband state in the presence of you at any time while he was giving any of these statements on the afternoon of November 22, whether or not he saw any people looking out of the building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where did he say he saw them?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He didn't say exactly where he saw them, but the windows on the floor above the sixth floor were all closed, and I think they were never open.