Chapter XX: Part 20

Mr. ROMACK. I take it back, I was going to Tech when the war broke out, and went to East Texas State after the war.

Mr. BELIN. When the war broke out, what did you do?

Mr. ROMACK. I went into the Navy.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Navy?

Mr. ROMACK. I was in the Amphibious, on the Aleutian Islands, and took boot training in San Diego.

I went to the Aleutian Islands and came back and went to Pearl Harbor and stayed out there for 9 months, and boarded an LST and went through the campaigns of the Philippines and Okinawa and Japan and then returned back home.

Mr. BELIN. When did you get back to the States?

Mr. ROMACK. March 1946.

Mr. BELIN. I was stationed in Japan right after the last war. Where were you stationed?

Mr. ROMACK. I was on this LST in Pearl Harbor.

Mr. BELIN. Were you in Japan after the war?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, I was there during the time the Treaty was signed. We were in the, I forget the name, we were riding typhoons. We rode out eight of them, and our ship came back without the two side doors. All we had was the big ramp.

Mr. BELIN. That must have been quite a voyage back?

Mr. ROMACK. They were taking water in the port and bailing it over in the back.

Mr. BELIN. When you got back to the States, what did you do?

Mr. ROMACK. Went to St. Louis and bought me an automobile, and just I was a boy. I was the boy about 6 months, I would say.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ROMACK. Then I entered school, East Texas State Teachers College.

Mr. BELIN. You went there about a year?

Mr. ROMACK. Approximately a year, I would say, yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after that?

Mr. ROMACK. I got married once along the route, and I was married about 30 days.

Then I came to Dallas in 1947. I guess it was 1947, or 1948, I forget just when I did come to Dallas. It was along in there.

Mr. BELIN. And you have been in Dallas ever since?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, were you honorably discharged?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes; I surely was.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to Dallas?

Mr. ROMACK. I went to work with a motor freight carrier. They are known as ICX today. They were Miller & Miller Motor Freight at the time.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do for them?

Mr. ROMACK. Drove a truck.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you do that?

Mr. ROMACK. Approximately a year.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ROMACK. Went back to East Texas, and my home, and piddled around for a short while.

Then I came back to Dallas. And what did I do along in there? In 1949, I went to work for the Cotton Belt Railroad.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay with them?

Mr. ROMACK. Until April, I believe, of 1955. I know it was in 1955.

Mr. BELIN. What did you generally do when you were with the Cotton Belt?

Mr. ROMACK. I did all the railroad work during that time. I mean, I have been a billing clerk, and I have been a foreman, and I have been checker, and assistant foreman, warehouse foreman, and I worked out in the yards, and did quite a few jobs.

Mr. BELIN. You left them in 1955, and then what did you do?

Mr. ROMACK. Went to work with--a friend wanted me to go to work with him in a service station, Conoco Service Station.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay there?

Mr. ROMACK. Stayed there a year, approximately.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ROMACK. Then I went to work with Strickland Transportation Co. as a dock foreman.

Mr. BELIN. How long were you with them?

Mr. ROMACK. Oh, I would say 6 or 7 months.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mr. ROMACK. Then I went to work with an air freight concern out here at Love Field Drive, driving a truck, delivering air freight and picking up air freight for, I would say, 7 or 8 months there, maybe.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mr. ROMACK. Then I hired out with the Coordinating Transportation Co.

Mr. BELIN. Coordinated Transportation Co.?

Mr. ROMACK. Right, which that is where I am at today.

Mr. BELIN. What have you been doing for them?

Mr. ROMACK. Driving mostly your big van trailer-truck and bobtail trucks and pickup and delivery service.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you around the noon hour of November 22, 1963?

Mr. ROMACK. I was on lunch period, just piddling around out north by east, I would say, from the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. You were standing around Houston Street?

Mr. ROMACK. It would be just about where Houston would intersect, but the street was under construction at the time. They didn't have it, which they still don't have it opened up for through traffic.

Mr. BELIN. Were you standing with anyone?

Mr. ROMACK. Well, Lee and Mr. Rackley, we walked out there together originally to start with. We were kind of piddling around, and I kind of walked off ahead of him.

Mr. BELIN. Was that George W. Rackley you were referring to?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Is he also known as "Pop" Rackley?

Mr. ROMACK. Right.

Mr. BELIN. You said you started walking away. Where did you walk?

Mr. ROMACK. Toward the School Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. Along what street did you walk?

Mr. ROMACK. Well, it wouldn't be no street at the time.

Mr. BELIN. Well, if there would be a street?

Mr. ROMACK. I guess it would be just about, I don't know whether they are going to split Ross and Houston Street up.

Mr. BELIN. Would you be looking at at Houston Street?

Mr. ROMACK. More or less. I would be looking at Houston Street; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right, and what happened as you were walking?

Mr. ROMACK. I heard these three rifle shots sound out.

Mr. BELIN. Did you know they were rifle shots?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir; I did. I go elk hunting in Colorado every year in October, and I just came back from this trip, and I am pretty familiar with a rifle shot.

Mr. BELIN. How many did you hear?

Mr. ROMACK. Three.

Mr. BELIN. Where did they sound like they came from?

Mr. ROMACK. It sounded, I guess, like it came from that building, but it wasn't on my side of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Did it sound like it was up high or low?

Mr. ROMACK. I would say they were high. I have never been asked that question, but it did sound like they were running out high, I would say, and the wind was blowing a little bit from the south that day, I can remember.

Mr. BELIN. The wind was blowing into your face as you walked, or was it blowing from your back, sir?

Mr. ROMACK. It was blowing into my face.

Mr. BELIN. Into your face.

How far were you from the School Book Depository Building when you heard the shots?

Mr. ROMACK. Oh, I probably was 125 yards. 100 to 125 yards, I would say.

Mr. BELIN. Would that be from the nearest corner of the building or from the front of Elm Street?

Mr. ROMACK. From the nearest corner of the building.

Mr. BELIN. From the northeast corner of the building?

Mr. ROMACK. Right.

Mr. BELIN. How close did the shots sound like they came together?

Mr. ROMACK. Oh, they happened pretty fast. I would say maybe 3 or 4 seconds apart.

Mr. BELIN. Were they equally spaced, or did one sound like it was closer than another one in time?

Mr. ROMACK. It sounded like to me that they were evenly spaced. They rang out pretty fast.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever operated a bolt action rifle?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you own one?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did it sound like the shots were faster than it could be operated with a bolt action rifle?

Mr. ROMACK. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of rifle do you have now, by the way?

Mr. ROMACK. I have a--it is a--I can't answer that really.

Mr. BELIN. What caliber?

Mr. ROMACK. It is a 30-06.

Mr. BELIN. 30-06 rifle?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, it is. And it is an old World War I mechanism. It is either an Enfleld or a Springfield.

Mr. BELIN. Bolt action?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You heard those rifle shots, and you think you could shoot your rifle accurately as fast as you heard those shots?

Mr. ROMACK. I don't, wouldn't think that I would be that good a shot; no, sir; because I shot at an elk four times and I hit him everywhere and missed him one time out of four.

Mr. BELIN. How far was it?

Mr. ROMACK. He was, I would say, 350 to 500 yards away. He was quite a distance.

Mr. BELIN. Maybe I should have asked the question this way. Suppose he was 100 yards away or else 50 yards?

Mr. ROMACK. I would be more accurate with my shooting, I sure would.

Mr. BELIN. If he were, say, from 40 to 75 yards away, or not an elk, a person, do you think you could shoot 40 to 75 yards away accurately as quickly as you heard those rifle sounds?

Mr. ROMACK. I wouldn't say I could; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you think an accurate rifleman could?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you heard the shots, and then what did you do?

Mr. ROMACK. Well, I knew something was wrong. I mean, I could sense that within my own self.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. ROMACK. And I looked up and I felt kind of chilly looking down towards the--which I am facing the Houston entrance, and I looked down toward where all the people were standing along, the motorcade was passing by, and just immediately after I heard the shots, I saw a policeman running north towards me. He was running to look to see if somebody was running out of the back of this building.

Mr. BELIN. What building?

Mr. ROMACK. Texas School Book Depository Building. And he didn't stay but just, oh, he was just there to check and he runs back.

Well, sensing that something is wrong, I automatically take over watching the building for the man.

Mr. BELIN. What part of the building were you watching?

Mr. ROMACK. The back part.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see that back dock in the back part?

Mr. ROMACK. Well, I mean, they got it sealed off. I could see as much as anyone could see.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see--there are some stairs that go up to the back dock, aren't there?

Mr. ROMACK. Right here.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to a first floor plan of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you watch those stairs?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you watch them after you saw the policeman leave?

Mr. ROMACK. Well, I watched them all the time until someone arrived, and the only time I did take my back off, turn my back to the building was Sam Pate with his KBOX news, he arrived before any of the police or anyone.

Mr. BELIN. Is that KBOX?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a radio or television station?

Mr. ROMACK. It is a radio station.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you take your eyes off then?

Mr. ROMACK. He was driving up and they were having a little high--the city has a piece of wood that they use to stop traffic coming through, and I'd taken that so he could come through, drive his truck.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you leave your post?

Mr. ROMACK. I didn't leave. That was right there, even closer than what we were. But all I did was let that down for him, and then we----

Mr. BELIN. Would that have taken less than a minute?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Less than 30 seconds, do you know?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay after that watching that back door?

Mr. ROMACK. Well, we were all there watching it then.

Mr. BELIN. How long a period of time?

Mr. ROMACK. Pardon?

Mr. BELIN. Did you see a policeman go up there?

Mr. ROMACK. I saw policemen up in there. I didn't see anyone come up the back. They came in the front, all--most of them.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any employees walk up the back way?

Mr. ROMACK. There was two other gentlemen which I never said anything about, that taken over. They were FBI or something standing right here at the very entrance, and just stood there.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing again to the back stairway that leads up from the street to the dock on the north side of the building?

Mr. ROMACK. Right.

Mr. BELIN. See anyone else?

Mr. ROMACK. No, sir; other than all the motorcycle officers and squad cars. They started coming in, I would say, in 4 minutes from the time that this happened. They were swarming the building, which naturally I quit watching anything particular.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, about 4 minutes after the shots came you quit watching it? Would that be accurate, or not?

Mr. ROMACK. Well, I would say somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 minutes, 4 or 5 minutes. That would probably be true. I stayed there, but I wasn't particularly watching.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, then as I understand your testimony, you said that from about the time of the shots until about 5 minutes after the shots, you watched the back door of the building?

Mr. ROMACK. Right.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not you saw anyone leave the building?

Mr. ROMACK. They wasn't anyone left the building.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not you saw anyone enter the building other than a police officer?

Mr. ROMACK. No one entered while I was standing there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anybody running down the street near you at all?

Mr. ROMACK. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you standing? How far were you from this stairway going to this Houston Street dock?

Mr. ROMACK. Well, after this KBOX--you are asking prior to before he got there?

Mr. BELIN. Before KBOX got there first?

Mr. ROMACK. I would say I moved between 75 yards.

Mr. BELIN. 75 yards of the northeast corner of the building?

Mr. ROMACK. 75 yards of the northeast corner of the building.

Mr. BELIN. After KBOX got there?

Mr. ROMACK. He got to about, I would say, maybe 35 yards to the building, or 40. That is where he parked his car.

Mr. BELIN. How long did he stay, KBOX?

Mr. ROMACK. Oh. I would say 35 or 40 minutes. Then I went and called my wife and was telling her the sad news, and then I went back and stayed again. I ended up laying off work. I didn't even work that afternoon.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever contact the FBI?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When did you do that?

Mr. ROMACK. It was on a Saturday night after I got in from work.

Mr. BELIN. What month was it?

Mr. ROMACK. It was this past month.

Mr. BELIN. You mean March?

Mr. ROMACK. Right.

Mr. BELIN. What caused you to contact the FBI in March?

Mr. ROMACK. I was trying to pinpoint the day that I must have come in from work. It was on the weekend that I'd come home, and there was a paper up in the left-hand corner.

Mr. BELIN. You mean the newspaper?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Dallas newspaper?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Which one, do you know, offhand?

Mr. ROMACK. Herald, the paper that I take.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see in the paper?

Mr. ROMACK. I saw an article that was written by a guy, which I have been concerned about this thing all the way through, the assassination and I got to reading it, and it is a story that just don't jibe with about me sitting there and watching the building. It just kind of upset me to know there is some monkey just hatched up such a story.

Mr. BELIN. What is the story that you read that you got concerned about?

Mr. ROMACK. About a guy seeing a rifle drawn in from the building above him, and he also seen the people as the shots were being fired, and he also seen some character running toward me with an overcoat on which was brown or gray or blue, and he heard 4 shots.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Do you remember what page of the paper this was on?

Mr. ROMACK. It was on the headlines. I don't mean the headlines. It was on the front page in the left corner of the page.

Mr. BELIN. Now you say something concerned you about the article. Was it the fact that he said he saw a rifle there that concerned you?

Mr. ROMACK. No, sir; the fact that he was running somebody over me, and that is what I was out there doing. That is what I was doing. I was watching.

Mr. BELIN. You mean the portion of the article that concerned you was that someone said that someone else was running?

Mr. ROMACK. Towards Pacific Street.

Mr. BELIN. Towards Pacific Street from the direction of the School Book Depository?

Mr. ROMACK. That is the way the article read, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you tell the FBI when you called them?

Mr. ROMACK. I told them, tried to tell them about the same thing that I am telling you right now today.

Mr. BELIN. Have I ever mentioned before, by the way, or talked to you before this morning?

Mr. ROMACK. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not as soon as we met, you came in here and we started taking your deposition immediately?

Mr. ROMACK. Right. Unless you called me last Saturday. I don't remember who called me.

Mr. BELIN. Well, on Saturday, what did someone do, call you and tell you to come down here?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did that person talk to you about the facts that we were talking about now?

Mr. ROMACK. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. It wasn't I, just for the record. I believe it was the Secret Service that called you, but I am not sure.

Mr. ROMACK. It was.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I understand your testimony correctly, what you are stating is that you don't believe anyone ran out of the building towards you, at least within the first 5 minutes after the shots?

Mr. ROMACK. Right.

Mr. BELIN. You don't think anyone went out of the building during the first 5 minutes after the shots?

Mr. ROMACK. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else, any other information you have that you feel might be helpful to the investigation of the assassination?

Mr. ROMACK. I can't think of anything, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you very much for taking the time to come down here. We appreciate your cooperation, and certainly your cooperation particularly in volunteering to call the FBI to contact them for this information.

Mr. ROMACK. Well, I felt that--I called an attorney that I know and talked to him about the deal before I called the FBI, and I told him I wasn't doing this for a publicity thing. It was something I just didn't, after reading that article, it kind of upset me, and he said he felt it was my duty to call the FBI and let them know.

And that is when I went ahead and made my statement.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Romack, you have the right, if you want, to come back down here after these notes of the court reporter are typed, to read the typewritten transcript and sign it, or you can waive reading it and signing it and just have her send it directly to Washington, whatever you want to do. It makes no difference with us.

Mr. ROMACK. I will waive.

Mr. BELIN. You want to waive it then?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Again we want to thank you very much.

Mr. ROMACK. You are quite welcome.

TESTIMONY OF LEE E. BOWERS, JR.

The testimony of Lee E. Bowers, Jr. was taken at 2 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you stand and be sworn, Mr. Bowers?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give for this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please.

Mr. BOWERS. Lee E. Bowers, Jr.

Mr. BALL. And what is your residence address?

Mr. BOWERS. 10508 Maplegrove Lane.

Mr. BALL. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BOWERS. Dallas.

Mr. BALL. And would you tell me something about yourself, where you were born, raised, and what has been your business, generally, or occupation?

Mr. BOWERS. I was born right here in Dallas, and lived here most of my life except when I was in the Navy, at the age of 17 to 21, and I was away 2 years going to Hardin Simmons University, also, attended Southern Methodist University 2 years, majoring in religion. I worked for the railroad 15 years and was a self-employed builder, as well as--on the side. And the first of this year when I went to work as business manager for Dr. Tim Green who operates this hospital and convalescent home and rent properties.

Mr. BALL. What railroad did you work for?

Mr. BOWERS. Worked for the Union Terminal Co. with the 8 participating railroads.

Mr. BALL. And on November 22, 1963, were you working for the Union Terminal Co.?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work were you doing for them?

Mr. BOWERS. I was tower man in the north tower, Union Terminal, operating the switches and signals controlling the movement of trains.

Mr. BALL. Through railroad yards?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What were your hours of work?

Mr. BOWERS. 7 to 3 p.m., Monday through Friday.

Mr. BALL. Now, do you remember what is the height of--above the ground at which you worked in the tower?

Mr. BOWERS. It is second story, it is 14 feet, 12 or 14 feet.

Mr. BALL. You worked about 14 feet above the ground?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And the tower was arranged so that you could see out?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; it is windows except for posts that--posts on each corner. It is windows on all four sides.

Mr. BALL. Where is that located with reference to the corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. BOWERS. It is west and north of this corner, and as to distances, I really don't know. It is within 50 yards of the back of the School Depository Building, or less.

Mr. BALL. Did you say that it is built on higher ground, the base of the tower on higher ground than around Houston and Elm?

Mr. BOWERS. Approximately the same.

Mr. BALL. Same? It is higher ground than Elm as it recedes down under the triple underpass?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes, sir; considerably.

Mr. BALL. And the base of your tower is about the same height as the triple underpass, isn't it?

Mr. BOWERS. Approximately.

Mr. BALL. Now, can you tell me why you refer to that as a triple underpass? In our conversation here before you were sworn your description--you described it as a triple underpass.

Mr. BOWERS. It is just a local connotation for it since there are three streets that run under it.

Mr. BALL. I see. And how many sets of tracks do you control from your tower?

Mr. BOWERS. There are about 11 tracks in the station and 2 freight tracks.

Mr. BALL. That would be 13 tracks that is, the tracks altogether, that pass in front of your tower?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; of course where the tracks converge and cross and split off to various railroad yards----

Mr. BALL. And the tracks are to the north and west of your tower, aren't they?

Mr. BOWERS. Well, the tracks are west, but they proceed in all directions, I mean, they are both north and south.

Mr. BALL. Now, you were on duty on November 22, 1963, weren't you?

Mr. BOWERS. That's correct.

Mr. BALL. Close to noon, did you make any observation of the area around between your tower and Elm Street?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; because of the fact that the area had been covered by police for some 2 hours. Since approximately 10 o'clock in the morning traffic had been cut off into the area so that anyone moving around could actually be observed. Since I had worked there for a number of years I was familiar with most of the people who came in and out of the area.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice any cars around there?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; there were three cars that came in during the time from around noon until the time of the shooting.

Mr. BALL. Came in where?

Mr. BOWERS. They came into the vicinity of the tower, which was at the extension of Elm Street, which runs in front of the School Depository, and which there is no way out. It is not a through street to anywhere.

Mr. BALL. There is parking area behind the School Depository, between that building and your tower?

Mr. BOWERS. Two or three railroad tracks and a small amount of parking area for the employees.

Mr. BALL. And the first came along that you noticed about what time of day?

Mr. BOWERS. I do not recall the exact time, but I believe this was approximately 12:10, wouldn't be too far off.

Mr. BALL. And the car you noticed, when you noticed the car, where was it?

Mr. BOWERS. The car proceeded in front of the School Depository down across 2 or 3 tracks and circled the area in front of the tower, and to the west of the tower, and, as if he was searching for a way out, or was checking the area, and then proceeded back through the only way he could, the same outlet he came into.

Mr. BALL. The place where Elm dead ends?

Mr. BOWERS. That's right. Back in front of the School Depository was the only way he could get out. And I lost sight of him, I couldn't watch him.

Mr. BALL. What was the description of that car?

Mr. BOWERS. The first car was a 1959 Oldsmobile, blue and white station wagon with out-of-State license.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what State?

Mr. BOWERS. No; I do not. I would know it, I could identify it, I think, if I looked at a list.

Mr. BALL. And, it had something else, some bumper stickers?

Mr. BOWERS. Had a bumper sticker, one of which was a Goldwater sticker, and the other of which was of some scenic location, I think.

Mr. BALL. And, did you see another car?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes, some 15 minutes or so after this, at approximately 12 o'clock, 20 to 12--I guess 12:20 would be close to it, little time differential there--but there was another car which was a 1957 black Ford, with one male in it that seemed to have a mike or telephone or something that gave the appearance of that at least.

Mr. BALL. How could you tell that?

Mr. BOWERS. He was holding something up to his mouth with one hand and he was driving with the other, and gave that appearance. He was very close to the tower. I could see him as he proceeded around the area.

Mr. BALL. What kind of license did that have?

Mr. BOWERS. Had a Texas license.

Mr. BALL. What did it do as it came into the area, from what street?

Mr. BOWERS. Came in from the extension of Elm Street in front of the School Depository.

Mr. BALL. Did you see it leave?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; after 3 or 4 minutes cruising around the area it departed the same way. He did probe a little further into the area than the first car.

Mr. BALL. Did you see another car?

Mr. BOWERS. Third car, which entered the area, which was some seven or nine minutes before the shooting, I believe was a 1961 or 1962 Chevrolet, four-door Impala, white, showed signs of being on the road. It was muddy up to the windows, bore a similar out-of-state license to the first car I observed, occupied also by one white male.

Mr. BALL. What did it do?

Mr. BOWERS. He spent a little more time in the area. He tried--he circled the area and probed one spot right at the tower in an attempt to get and was forced to back out some considerable distance, and slowly cruised down back towards the front of the School Depository Building.

Mr. BALL. Then did he leave?

Mr. BOWERS. The last I saw of him he was pausing just about in--just above the assassination site.

Mr. BALL. Did the car park, or continue on or did you notice?

Mr. BOWERS. Whether it continued on at that very moment or whether it pulled up only a short distance, I couldn't tell. I was busy.

Mr. BALL. How long was this before the President's car passed there?

Mr. BOWERS. This last car? About 8 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Were you in a position where you could see the corner of Elm and Houston from the tower?

Mr. BOWERS. No; I could not see the corner of Elm and Houston. I could see the corner of Main and Houston as they came down and turned on, then I couldn't see it for about half a block, and after they passed the corner of Elm and Houston the car came in sight again.

Mr. BALL. You saw the President's car coming out the Houston Street from Main, did you?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; I saw that.

Mr. BALL. Then you lost sight of it?

Mr. BOWERS. Right. For a moment.

Mr. BALL. Then you saw it again where?

Mr. BOWERS. It came in sight after it had turned the corner of Elm and Houston.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything?

Mr. BOWERS. I heard three shots. One, then a slight pause, then two very close together. Also reverberation from the shots.

Mr. BALL. And were you able to form an opinion as to the source of the sound or what direction it came from, I mean?

Mr. BOWERS. The sounds came either from up against the School Depository Building or near the mouth of the triple underpass.

Mr. BALL. Were you able to tell which?

Mr. BOWERS. No; I could not.

Mr. BALL. Well, now, had you had any experience before being in the tower as to sounds coming from those various places?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; I had worked this same tower for some 10 or 12 years, and was there during the time they were renovating the School Depository Building, and had noticed at that time the similarity of sounds occurring in either of those two locations.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me now whether or not it came, the sounds you heard, the three shots came from the direction of the Depository Building or the triple underpass?

Mr. BOWERS. No; I could not.

Mr. BALL. From your experience there, previous experience there in hearing sounds that originated at the Texas School Book Depository Building, did you notice that sometimes those sounds seem to come from the triple underpass? Is that what you told me a moment ago?

Mr. BOWERS. There is a similarity of sound, because there is a reverberation which takes place from either location.

Mr. BALL. Had you heard sounds originating near the triple underpass before?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; quite often.

Because trucks backfire and various occurrences.

Mr. BALL. And you had heard noises originating from the Texas School Depository when they were building there?

Mr. BOWERS. They were renovating. I--did carpenter work as well as sandblasted the outside of the building.

Mr. BALL. Now, were there any people standing on the high side--high ground between your tower and where Elm Street goes down under the underpass toward the mouth of the underpass?

Mr. BOWERS. Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, there were two men. One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly heavy-set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, about midtwenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket.

Mr. BALL. Were they standing together or standing separately?

Mr. BOWERS. They were standing within 10 or 15 feet of each other, and gave no appearance of being together, as far as I knew.

Mr. BALL. In what direction were they facing?

Mr. BOWERS. They were facing and looking up towards Main and Houston, and following the caravan as it came down.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone standing on the triple underpass?

Mr. BOWERS. On the triple underpass, there were two policemen. One facing each direction, both east and west. There was one railroad employee, a signal man there with the Union Terminal Co., and two welders that worked for the Fort Worth Welding firm, and there was also a laborer's assistant furnished by the railroad to these welders.

Mr. BALL. You saw those before the President came by, you saw those people?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; they were there before and after.

Mr. BALL. And were they standing on the triple underpass?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; they were standing on top of it facing towards Houston Street, all except, of course, the one policeman on the west side.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any other people up on this high ground?

Mr. BOWERS. There were one or two people in the area. Not in this same vicinity. One of them was a parking lot attendant that operates a parking lot there. One or two. Each had uniforms similar to those custodians at the courthouse. But they were some distance back, just a slight distance back.

Mr. BALL. When you heard the sound, which way were you looking?

Mr. BOWERS. At the moment I heard the sound, I was looking directly towards the area--at the moment of the first shot, as close as my recollection serves, the car was out of sight behind this decorative masonry wall in the area.

Mr. BALL. And when you heard the second and third shot, could you see the car?

Mr. BOWERS. No; at the moment of the shots, I could--I do not think that it was in sight. It came in sight immediately following the last shot.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any activity in this high ground above Elm after the shot?

Mr. BOWERS. At the time of the shooting there seemed to be some commotion, and immediately following there was a motorcycle policeman who shot nearly all of the way to the top of the incline.

Mr. BALL. On his motorcycle?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did he come by way of Elm Street?

Mr. BOWERS. He was part of the motorcade and had left it for some reason, which I did not know.

Mr. BALL. He came up----

Mr. BOWERS. He came almost to the top and I believe abandoned his motorcycle for a moment and then got on it and proceeded, I don't know.

Mr. BALL. How did he get up?

Mr. BOWERS. He just shot up over the curb and up.

Mr. BALL. He didn't come then by way of Elm, which dead ends there?

Mr. BOWERS. No; he left the motorcade and came up the incline on the motorcycle.

Mr. BALL. Was his motorcycle directed toward any particular people?

Mr. BOWERS. He came up into this area where there are some trees, and where I had described the two men were in the general vicinity of this.

Mr. BALL. Were the two men there at the time?

Mr. BOWERS. I--as far as I know, one of them was. The other I could not say.

The darker dressed man was too hard to distinguish from the trees. The one in the white shirt, yes; I think he was.

Mr. BALL. When you said there was a commotion, what do you mean by that? What did it look like to you when you were looking at the commotion?

Mr. BOWERS. I just am unable to describe rather than it was something out of the ordinary, a sort of milling around, but something occurred in this particular spot which was out of the ordinary, which attracted my eye for some reason, which I could not identify.

Mr. BALL. You couldn't describe it?

Mr. BOWERS. Nothing that I could pinpoint as having happened that----

Mr. BALL. Afterwards did a good many people come up there on this high ground at the tower?

Mr. BOWERS. A large number of people came, more than one direction. One group converged from the corner of Elm and Houston, and came down the extension of Elm and came into the high ground, and another line--another large group went across the triangular area between Houston and Elm and then across Elm and then up the incline. Some of them all the way up.

Many of them did, as well as, of course, between 50 and a hundred policemen within a maximum of 5 minutes.

Mr. BALL. In this area around your tower?

Mr. BOWERS. That's right. Sealed off the area, and I held off the trains until they could be examined, and there was some transients taken on at least one train.

Mr. BALL. I believe you have talked this over with me before your deposition was taken, haven't we?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is there anything that you told me that I haven't asked you about that you think of?

Mr. BOWERS. Nothing that I can recall.

Mr. BALL. You have told me all that you know about this, haven't you?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; I believe that I have related everything which I have told the city police, and also told to the FBI.

Mr. BALL. And everything you told me before we started taking the deposition?

Mr. BOWERS. To my knowledge I can remember nothing else.

Mr. BALL. Now, this will be reduced to writing, and you can sign it, look it over and sign it, or waive your signature if you wish.

What do you wish?

Mr. BOWERS. I have no reason to sign it unless you want me to.

Mr. BALL. Would you just as leave waive the signature?

Mr. BOWERS. Fine.

Mr. BALL. Then we thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF B. J. MARTIN

The testimony of B. J. Martin was taken at 10:10 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you stand up, please, and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MARTIN. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state you name, please?

Mr. MARTIN. B. J. Martin.

Mr. BALL. And what is your residence address?

Mr. MARTIN. 11830 Flamingo Lane, Dallas.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. MARTIN. I am a police officer.

Mr. BALL. With the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Police Department?

Mr. MARTIN. It will be 11 years in June.

Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself, when you were born and where you were raised and where you went to school?

Mr. MARTIN. I was born in Maud, Okla., Seminole County--went to school--high school at Maud, Okla., and entered the Navy in 1948, from there and was discharged in 1952 and lived at Compton, Okla., for approximately a year, and then returned to Dallas and was employed in the Police Department in June 1953.

Mr. BALL. And were you employed as a motorcycle officer at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I was employed as an apprentice policeman and worked in the radio patrol division.

Mr. BALL. You are not a motorcycleman?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been a motorcycle officer?

Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, 8 years in January.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, did you have some special assignment?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I was assigned to the motorcade of President Kennedy.

Mr. BALL. And you went out to Love Field, did you?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; we made detail about 7 o'clock that morning and was assigned, I don't recall now just what time--it was about 30 minutes before his plane was to arrive at Love Field.

Mr. BALL. And in the motorcade what was your position?

Mr. MARTIN. I was assigned to ride on the left-hand rear side of President Kennedy.

Mr. BALL. And were you riding alone there, or was another officer riding with you?

Mr. MARTIN. There was another officer riding with me, B. W. Hargis.

Mr. BALL. He was parallel to you on another motorcycle?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; we were----

Mr. BALL. Two motorcycles abreast?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. As you turned onto Houston from Main, can you tell me about the speed of the President's car?

Mr. MARTIN. My estimation would be 4 to 5 miles an hour when we made the turn onto Elm Street from Houston.

Mr. BALL. From Houston?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you make the turn from Main to Houston about the same speed?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; we were going a little faster, I would say--between probably 10 and 15 miles an hour.

Mr. BALL. And then the block between Main and Elm, did the motorcade slow down?

Mr. MARTIN. It slowed down just before we made the turn onto Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. Let's take the President's car--what do you think the speed of the President's car was as you made that turn from Houston onto Elm?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe the speed was about 4 or 5 miles an hour.

Mr. BALL. What was your speed?

Mr. MARTIN. Approximately the same--maybe a mile slower.

Mr. BALL. Were you able to maintain your position on the two-wheeler motorcycle?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I believe I did.

Mr. BALL. What is the minimum speed at which you can maintain the position of that motorcycle?

Mr. MARTIN. About 2 miles per hour, I would imagine.

Mr. BALL. Did the President's car pick up any speed from the corner of Houston and Elm--we'll say half way down that hill?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I don't recall it picking up any speed in there.

Mr. BALL. They were going fairly slow?

Mr. MARTIN. It may have picked up, gradually picked up, but not enough that I could notice.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear any unusual noise?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I heard a shot, or what I thought at the time to be a shot.

Mr. BALL. What was the position of your motorcycle at that time with reference to the President's car?

Mr. MARTIN. Just to the rear of his car--on the left rear of his car.

Mr. BALL. How far from the car, I'll say, to the left of the car and then how far to the rear--so I can get some idea of your position?

Mr. MARTIN. I would say that my motor was 5-foot to the left and approximately 6- to 8-foot to the rear.

Mr. BALL. Of the President's car?

Mr. MARTIN. Of the President's car.

Mr. BALL. Were you anywhere near the front end of the Secret Service car?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The car the Secret Service men were in?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes; we were alongside the front end of their car, because one of the agents got off of the car after the first shot. The best I can remember--I was fairly close to him--he was the person riding on the fender of the car and the first agent from the front of the car, and I was fairly close to him when he jumped off of the car.

Mr. BALL. Now, where was the motorcycle driven by Mr. Hargis, with reference to your right or to your left?

Mr. MARTIN. He was to my right when we made the turn on Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. At the time you heard this shot, where was he?

Mr. MARTIN. I presume he was still to my right. I don't recall seeing him after the shots.

Mr. BALL. He would have been closer to the President's car than you would have?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir--he would have been--I would say 3- or 4-foot closer than I was.

Mr. BALL. You traveled along the street about 3 or 4 feet apart from each other?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir--something like that.

Mr. BALL. When you heard the first shot, did you have any idea of the direction which the shot was coming from?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I didn't. I couldn't tell from which direction it was coming--any of the shots.

Mr. BALL. Did you look?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I looked back to my right.

Mr. BALL. After which shot?

Mr. MARTIN. After the first shot.

Mr. BALL. You looked to your right?

Mr. MARTIN. I looked back to my right.

Mr. BALL. What did you look at?

Mr. MARTIN. At the building on the right there.

Mr. BALL. Is that the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes; it is.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anything?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. As you turned to the right, did you turn your motorcycle also, or did you turn your body?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe I just turned my body. I don't believe I ever turned my motor. I believe I kept my motor headed down Elm Street--west on Elm.

Mr. BALL. Did you take any notice of the President after the first shot?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I looked at the President after I heard the shot and he was leaning forward--I could see the left side of his face. At the time he had no expression on his face.

Mr. BALL. Then, did you hear some more shots?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How many?

Mr. MARTIN. Two more shots.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anything when you looked at the School Depository Building?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir--just the building.

Mr. BALL. And were you able to tell--to determine or did you have any opinion, as to the direction from which the shots were coming--the last two shots--from which direction they came?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; you couldn't tell just where they were coming from.

Mr. BALL. Was there any breeze that day?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes; there was.

Mr. BALL. From what direction?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe it was blowing out of the southwest at that particular location. It seemed like we were going to turn into the wind as we turned off of Houston onto Elm.

Mr. BALL. The wind was in your face?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes; the best I can recall.

Mr. BALL. Now, afterward, did the motorcade pick up speed then?

Mr. MARTIN. After we turned onto Houston?

Mr. BALL. No; after the shots?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes--after the shots we picked up speed.

Mr. BALL. Did you go on to Parkland?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I did. I rode just part of the time alongside of the President's car. At times we were forced to the rear because of the pedestrians standing out on Stemmons and there just wasn't enough room to ride in there.

Mr. BALL. Could you see the President?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I couldn't see him--immediately after the first shot I saw him and after that I couldn't see him.

Mr. BALL. And did you see the Governor at all?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir. I didn't pay any attention to the Governor.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you got to Parkland Hospital, what did you do?

Mr. MARTIN. We pulled into the emergency entrance to Parkland Hospital. The traffic had already begun to stack up and the officers ahead of the motorcade went on down into the exit and I stopped off at the first turn into the exit about 50 or 60 yards from the entrance to the emergency and began to cut traffic so they wouldn't block the roadway down into the emergency and then we had to park cars--just a lot of people got out of their cars and it was all blocked up and we had to park cars and just generally work traffic around there.

Mr. BALL. You had a white helmet on?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice any stains on your helmet?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; during the process of working traffic there, I noticed that there were blood stains on the windshield on my motor and then I pulled off my helmet and I noticed there were blood stains on the left side of my helmet.

Mr. BALL. To give a more accurate description of the left side, could you tell us about where it started with reference to the forehead?

Mr. MARTIN. It was just to the left--of what would be the center of my forehead--approximately halfway, about a quarter of the helmet had spots of blood on it.

Mr. BALL. And were there any other spots of any other material on the helmet there besides blood?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; there was other matter that looked like pieces of flesh.

Mr. BALL. What about your uniform?

Mr. MARTIN. There was blood and matter on my left shoulder of my uniform.

Mr. BALL. You pointed to a place in front of your shoulder, about the clavicle region?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that about where it was?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. On the front of your uniform and not on the side?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. That would be left, was it?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes; on the left side.

Mr. BALL. And just below the level of the shoulder?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what spots were there?

Mr. MARTIN. They were blood spots and other matter.

Mr. BALL. And what did you notice on your windshield?

Mr. MARTIN. There was blood and other matter on my windshield and also on the motor.

Mr. BALL. Was the blood noticeable--were there large splotches?

Mr. MARTIN. No; they weren't large splotches, they were small--it was not very noticeable unless you looked at it.

Mr. BALL. Was the discoloration on your helmet noticeable?

Mr. MARTIN. Not too much--no--as a matter of fact, there were other people around there and two more officers there and they never noticed it.

Mr. BALL. At that time were you with Mr. Hargis?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I don't believe that he went to the hospital with us. I believe he stopped there at the scene of the shooting.

Mr. BALL. And did you ever see his helmet or his uniform or the windshield of his motorcycle?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir--I never recall seeing him again until the next day.

Mr. BALL. Now, was this blood on the outside or the inside of your windshield?

Mr. MARTIN. It was on the outside of my windshield.

Mr. BALL. Was it on the right or left side?

Mr. MARTIN. It was on the outside of my windshield.

Mr. BALL. And what about the fender of the motorcycle?

Mr. MARTIN. It was just in the front--right on the front just above the cowling on the motorcycle.

Mr. BALL. You say that when you first heard the first shot you thought it was rifle fire?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir--the sharp crack of it.

Mr. BALL. Are you familiar with guns?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever fire a rifle?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you own a rifle?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You have been hunting, I suppose?

Mr. MARTIN. I just returned.

Mr. BALL. You've shot high-powered rifles, have you?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, what do you think the speed of the President's car was--give me your best estimate of the speed of the President's car when you heard the first shot?

Mr. MARTIN. I would say it was under 10 miles an hour--between 5 and 10 at that particular time, about the time of the shots.

Mr. BALL. You were going downhill at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. The best I remember--I wasn't having any trouble keeping my motor up at that time, so that it was probably between 5 and 10 miles an hour. I don't think it was any faster than 10.

Mr. BALL. Did you at any time come abreast of the President's car in the motorcade?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir.