Chapter XV: Part 15

Mr. BELIN. You are a senior.

Mr. EDWARDS. Right.

Mr. BELIN. You have been going up to school there for several years?

Mr. EDWARDS. Two years I went there. I laid out last year and worked here in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Are you originally from Dallas?

Mr. EDWARDS. No; Graham, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to school?

Mr. EDWARDS. Graham High School in Graham, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got out of school?

Mr. EDWARDS. I attended Abilene College.

Mr. BELIN. For a year?

Mr. EDWARDS. One year.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mr. EDWARDS. Decatur Baptist College, which is a junior college.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. EDWARDS. Northeastern State College in Tahlequah, Okla.

Mr. BELIN. Laid out last year?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I am finishing up this semester.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do last fall?

Mr. EDWARDS. I worked at the courthouse there.

Mr. BELIN. Is that the Dallas County Courthouse?

Mr. EDWARDS. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Where is that located?

Mr. EDWARDS. Let's say down on Main. I guess that would be sufficient.

Mr. BELIN. Main Street?

Mr. EDWARDS. Right.

Mr. BELIN. What street crosses there, do you remember?

Mr. EDWARDS. Well, you mean--give me a multiple choice and I will tell you.

Mr. BELIN. Harwood?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Record?

Mr. EDWARDS. Right.

Mr. BELIN. What about Elm? Houston Street?

Mr. EDWARDS. It runs right behind it, if I am not mistaken.

Mr. BELIN. Were you working on the day the President came to Dallas?

Mr. EDWARDS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. That was November 22, 1963, I believe on a Friday, is that correct?

Mr. EDWARDS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have lunch before the motorcade came by or not?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Were you with anyone?

Mr. EDWARDS. Ronald Fischer.

Mr. BELIN. Ronald Fischer. Did he work with you in that office?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; he did.

Mr. BELIN. What were you doing there? By the way, what was your job?

Mr. EDWARDS. Just a utility clerk.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after lunch?

Mr. EDWARDS. Came back and worked. I don't know exactly what time. For a little while until it was time for the President to come by, and then we left.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go?

Mr. EDWARDS. Sir?

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go? You say you left. Where did you go?

Mr. EDWARDS. You mean left the office?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. EDWARDS. Down on--I get the streets mixed up. Let's see, it would be Houston.

Mr. BELIN. Houston?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I guess it would be Houston across the street in the little park right across from the courthouse, straight across from, facing the Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this now.

Mr. EDWARDS. That is Elm, I guess that is what it is. I guess that is Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. When you used the word "Depository," what building do you mean?

Mr. EDWARDS. Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. EDWARDS. That building is at the corner of Elm and Houston, isn't it? Houston comes this way?

Mr. BELIN. Well, Houston, I believe, runs in a north-south direction. Elm runs in a east-west direction. Would a map help you at all?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Let me see if I can get one for you here.

I am handing you a portion of a map. You see Houston Street here on this map?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And you see Elm Street running this way, and the arrow pointing north, so Houston runs north and south.

Mr. EDWARDS. Where do you put the courthouse?

Mr. BELIN. The courthouse would be off this strip of map, but that is Elm and here is Houston. This little black square would be the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. EDWARDS. It would have to be Houston and Elm.

Mr. BELIN. Here is Elm going in the parkway here. Do you see that right there?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right, Main Street would be running toward the bottom of the map?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; it was here.

Mr. BELIN. You are putting your finger at the point which would be to the west of Houston Street and to the south of Elm as it goes into the parkway, is that right?

You see the arrow pointing northwest would be to your left on the map, and you are going to be west of Houston Street and south of Elm going in the parkway, is that correct?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I would be over here, right over here.

Mr. BELIN. Here is the parkway. Can you see it upside down here? Let's see if I can show you a picture.

Mr. EDWARDS. I am sorry. I don't have a picture.

Mr. BELIN. Here is a map and on the map north is shown with an arrow. You see it right here?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Edwards, have you now located yourself on this map?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I have.

Mr. BELIN. All right, where were you located?

Mr. EDWARDS. I guess I would plant myself right there.

Mr. BELIN. You are planting yourself now at a spot which would be on the west side of Houston Street near that entrance of Elm Street into the parkway there, and you would be facing in a northerly direction toward the School Book Depository Building, is that correct?

Mr. EDWARDS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Who were you standing with?

Mr. EDWARDS. Ronald Fischer.

Mr. BELIN. What time did you get there?

Mr. EDWARDS. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. How long before the motorcade came by, if you know?

Mr. EDWARDS. Where is that little paper and I will tell you.

Mr. BELIN. Can you remember without looking at any paper right now?

Mr. EDWARDS. No; not really. I can guess.

Mr. BELIN. What is your best guess? We will understand that it is just a guess.

Mr. EDWARDS. Maybe I'd better not guess.

Mr. BELIN. All right, if you don't care to guess, that is fine. We would prefer that you not make any statement unless you feel fairly sure about it.

What did you do when you got to this point?

Mr. EDWARDS. Stood there and waited for the motorcade to come.

Mr. BELIN. Did you look around at all?

Mr. EDWARDS. Certainly.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever take a look at the south side of the Texas School Book Depository Building? That would be facing--you would be looking at the south side of the building?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever look at that at all?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Before the motorcade came by?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. EDWARDS. Nothing of importance except maybe one individual who was up there in the corner room of the sixth floor which was crowded in among boxes.

Mr. BELIN. You say on the sixth floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What portion of the sixth floor as you looked at the building to your right or to your left?

Mr. EDWARDS. To my right.

Mr. BELIN. How near the corner?

Mr. EDWARDS. The corner window.

Mr. BELIN. The corner window there?

Mr. EDWARDS. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Could you describe this individual at all? Was he a white man or a Negro?

Mr. EDWARDS. White man.

Mr. BELIN. Tall or short, if you know?

Mr. EDWARDS. I couldn't say.

Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hand at all that you could see?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see his hands?

Mr. EDWARDS. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of clothes did he have on?

Mr. EDWARDS. Light colored shirt, short sleeve and open neck.

Mr. BELIN. How much of him could you see? Shoulder up, waist up, knees up, or what?

Mr. EDWARDS. From the waist on. From the abdomen or stomach up.

Mr. BELIN. Was the man fat, thin, or average in size?

Mr. EDWARDS. Oh, about average. Possibly thin.

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether he was light skinned or medium skin or what, if you could tell?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Was the sun shining in or not, if you know?

Mr. EDWARDS. Don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Was the sun out that day?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What color hair did the man have?

Mr. EDWARDS. Light brown.

Mr. BELIN. Light brown hair?

Mr. EDWARDS. That is what I would say; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any other people on the sixth floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not there were any, or just did you look and see any?

Mr. EDWARDS. I notice that there--I just didn't see any.

Mr. BELIN. What about the next floor above? Did you see any people on the floor above?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. What about on any floors below? See any people on the fifth floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Fourth floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Third floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. Possibly.

Mr. BELIN. Second floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. I believe so.

Mr. BELIN. First floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, you signed an affidavit for the sheriff's department where you stated that you saw a man at the window on the fifth floor, and the window was wide open all the way, and there was a stack of books around him, I could see. And you just told me you didn't see a man on the fifth floor. Was that affidavit correct or not?

Mr. EDWARDS. That is incorrect. That has been straightened out since.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean it has been straightened out?

Mr. EDWARDS. Well, they discussed it with me later and I took that back. That was the FBI. It was the sixth floor, though.

Mr. BELIN. How do you know it was the sixth floor? Sixth floor rather than the fifth floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. I went with them and I showed them the window, and I didn't count the bottom floor.

Mr. BELIN. You mean the first time when you made the affidavit you didn't count the bottom floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. When you went out with the FBI, they asked you to point out the window?

Mr. EDWARDS. Right.

Mr. BELIN. And you pointed out the same window you saw on November 22?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then you weren't counting the bottom floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. They did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you watch them count?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how many floors from the top it was?

Mr. EDWARDS. I think seven in all, seven floors. It is next to the top.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the hair of the man was short, average, or long on the man that you saw in the window that day?

Mr. EDWARDS. Don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Now what conversation did you and Ronald Fischer have about this man, if anything? Do you remember what he said?

Mr. EDWARDS. I made a statement to Ronny that I wondered who he was hiding from since he was up there crowded in among the boxes, in a joking manner.

Mr. BELIN. You mean you said it in a joking manner?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did Fischer say to you?

Mr. EDWARDS. I don't recall what he said, but I know that we said a few things. It wasn't of any importance at the time. And we looked up at him, both of us.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you look at him?

Mr. EDWARDS. Just a few seconds.

Mr. BELIN. Then what took your attention away, if any, or did you just start looking somewhere else?

Mr. EDWARDS. Started looking somewhere else.

Mr. BELIN. How long after that did the motorcade come by?

Mr. EDWARDS. Thirty seconds or a minute.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can remember that you or Ronald Fischer said?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of that might be relevant at all?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear, if you remember?

Mr. EDWARDS. Well, I heard one more then than was fired, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. You mean you said on the affidavit you heard four shots?

Mr. EDWARDS. I still right now don't know how many was fired. If I said four, then I thought I heard four.

Mr. BELIN. If you said four, you mean the affidavit--maybe we'd better introduce it into the record as Edward's Deposition Exhibit A. Where do you think the shots came from?

Mr. EDWARDS. I have no idea.

Mr. BELIN. In the affidavit you stated that the shots seemed to come from the building there. Did you really say that or not?

Mr. EDWARDS. No; I didn't say that.

Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else you can think of?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. I want to thank you for coming down here. You have an opportunity, if you want, to come back and read this deposition and sign it, or else you can waive the signing and reading of it and it will be sent directly to Washington by the court reporter. It makes no difference to us. You can read and sign or can waive reading and signing.

Mr. EDWARDS. I don't want to make an extra trip.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to waive it then?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Thank you, sir.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. JEAN LOLLIS HILL

The testimony of Mrs. Jean Lollis Hill was taken at 2:30 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mrs. Jean Lollis Hill is present at this moment in response to a letter request that she appear and give a deposition to the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.

May I say for the record, Mrs. Hill, that the Commission is investigating all of the facts relating to the shooting and, and we have asked you to appear here today to tell us what you know, if anything, relating to the actual assassination, because we understand you were on the scene or nearby at that time.

May the record further reflect that Mrs. Hill was sent a letter under date of March 18, 1964. With that preliminary statement, I will ask you, Mrs. Hill, to stand and raise your right hand, if you will please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. HILL. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you be seated, please, Mrs. Hill? And would you state your full name for the record?

Mrs. HILL. Jean Lollis Hill.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Hill, have you received a letter request?

Mrs. HILL. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Under date of March 18, 1964?

Mrs. HILL. I have it here.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, when did you see that letter request?

Mrs. HILL. Well, I guess I got it 2 or 3 days afterward--March 18--so I must have gotten it Monday--no; I couldn't have gotten it yesterday--I got it Saturday.

Mr. SPECTER. That would have been March 21?

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. May the record show that a court reporter is present and is taking verbatim transcript of the deposition of Mrs. Hill, with the court reporter, Mrs. Hill, and myself being present, and that all of the report is being transcribed and has been transcribed from the time Mrs. Hill arrived, is that correct, Mrs. Hill?

Mrs. HILL. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you on the day of November 22, 1963, at about noontime?

Mrs. HILL. I was standing directly across from the Texas School Depository Building on a grassy slope and the triangle toward the underpass.

Mr. SPECTER. And that would have been Dealey Plaza?

Mrs. HILL. If that's what the name of it is.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would that be on the----

Mrs. HILL. It was to the left of the motorcade.

Mr. SPECTER. To the left of the motorcade as the motorcade proceeded forward?

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. So, you would have been on the south side of Elm Street?

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what had you done immediately before noontime, Mrs. Hill?

Mrs. HILL. We had been there for about an hour and a half and had been walking up and down and back and forth.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we" whom do you mean by that?

Mrs. HILL. My friend, Mary Moorman, that took the picture.

Mr. SPECTER. She had a camera with her?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; a Polaroid. We had been taking pictures all morning.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you have a camera with you?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. And tell me what you observed as the President's motorcade passed by?

Mrs. HILL. You mean----

Mr. SPECTER. Start any place that you find most convenient and just tell me in your own way what happened.

Mrs. HILL. Well, as they came toward us, we had been taking pictures with this Polaroid camera and since it was a Polaroid we knew we had only one chance to get a picture, and at the time she had taken a picture just a few minutes before and I had grabbed it out of the camera and wrapped it and put it in my pocket. Just about that time he drew even with us.

Mr. SPECTER. And when you say "he" you mean?

Mrs. HILL. The President's car. We were standing on the curb and I jumped to the edge of the street and yelled, "Hey, we want to take your picture," to him and he was looking down in the seat--he and Mrs. Kennedy and their heads were turned toward the middle of the car looking down at something in the seat, which later turned out to be the roses, and I was so afraid he was going to look the other way because there were a lot of people across the street and we were, as far as I know, we were the only people down there in that area, and just as I yelled, "Hey," to him, he started to bring his head up to look at me and just as he did the shot rang out. Mary took the picture and fell on the ground and of course there were more shots.

Mr. SPECTER. How many shots were there altogether?

Mrs. HILL. I have always said there were some four to six shots. There were three shots--one right after the other, and a distinct pause, or just a moment's pause, and then I heard more.

Mr. SPECTER. How long a time elapsed from the first to the third of what you described as the first three shots?

Mrs. HILL. They were rapidly--they were rather rapidly fired.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you give me an estimate on the timespan on those three shots?

Mrs. HILL. No; I don't think I can.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, how many shots followed what you described as the first three shots?

Mrs. HILL. I think there were at least four or five shots and perhaps six, but I know there were more than three.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, much time elapsed from the very first shot until the very last shot, will you estimate?

Mrs. HILL. I don't think I could, properly, but my girl friend fell on the ground after about--during the shooting--right, I would say, just immediately after she had taken the picture--probably about the third shot. She fell on the ground and grabbed my slacks and said, "Get down, they're shooting." And, I knew they were but I was too stunned to move, so I didn't get down. I just stood there and gawked around.

Mr. SPECTER. Can't you give me any better idea on the sequence of the shots other than to say that there were three shots right in a row and then a moment's pause and an additional shot or shots.

Mrs. HILL. In what way?

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any way you could be more specific by way of time lapses among any of the shots, from the first to the second shot, the second to the third, or in that manner?

Mrs. HILL. The three were fired as though one person were firing; I mean, to me. They were fired just like you could reload and fire again or whatever you do with a gun.

Mr. SPECTER. With what sort of an action?

Mrs. HILL. I think that the firing that was done could have been done with the type gun that they say the assassinator used.

Mr. SPECTER. And what type gun was that, according to your understanding?

Mrs. HILL. A bolt action.

Mr. SPECTER. And how about the shots that followed the three shots, then, what would the sequence of timing have been on those?

Mrs. HILL. I thought they were different--I thought the sequence was different.

Mr. SPECTER. How will you describe the sequence?

Mrs. HILL. Quicker--more automatic.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there as few as four, as you recollected?

Mrs. HILL. I won't say positively, I think I can still seemingly hear it, and I would still say there were more, you know, I'm saying 4 to 6. I know there were at least 4, and I just almost swear that I heard 5 or 6.

Mr. SPECTER. Could there have been more than 6 that you heard?

Mrs. HILL. I couldn't say that I heard more than that.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you say for certain that you did not hear more than that?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; I didn't hear any more than that.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the position of the President, as best you recollect it, at the time the first shot was heard by you?

Mrs. HILL. He was slightly turned, he was sitting back in the seat, like turned toward Mrs. Kennedy and his head was down, and his hands were like this (indicating).

Mr. SPECTER. His hands were in his lap?

Mrs. HILL. No--not really.

Mr. SPECTER. How would you describe the position of his hands?

Mrs. HILL. He was sitting here [indicating] and Mrs. Kennedy--he was like this [indicating].

Mr. SPECTER. You are indicating the right hand on the left knee?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. With the body turned slightly toward the person on his left?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Who would have been Mrs. Kennedy?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you watching him at this time?

Mrs. HILL. Yes, I was looking right at his face.

Mr. SPECTER. And what reaction, if any, did he have at the time of the first shot?

Mrs. HILL. As I said, I had yelled at him and he had started to raise his head up and I saw his head start to come up and all at once a bullet rang out and he slumped forward like this [indicating].

Mr. SPECTER. Lurched or slumped, as you say, to the left?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did his head drop down?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; he was just, you know, slumping down like this.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a chance to see anything of Governor Connally at that exact second?

Mrs. HILL. There was a scrambling around in the front seat. I didn't know who was riding with him, I hadn't paid any attention to who was riding with him in the car, but I never did see Mrs. Connally. I guess my story is probably colored by what I have heard.

Mr. SPECTER. Tell me what you have heard that you think maybe that colored your story?

Mrs. HILL. About what the Connallys say about the shots, which shots hit where and everything.

Mr. SPECTER. What is that that you have heard?

Mrs. HILL. Well, I have heard that 1 shot hit Kennedy and also hit Connally, that the same shot that hit Kennedy hit Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you hear that, Mrs. Hill?

Mrs. HILL. I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. What else have you heard?

Mrs. HILL. And also that Mrs. Connally jumped up and covered Mr. Connally with her body and pushed him to the floor, but I never did see Mrs. Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Governor Connally?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; I did see him; I didn't know who he was, but I did see him and I knew that someone had been hit.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was he pushed in the car?

Mrs. HILL. Well, I just vaguely know that he was toward the front.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, was he in the front seat of the ear or was he between President Kennedy and the front seat of the car, or where was he?

Mrs. HILL. Between President Kennedy?

Mr. SPECTER. You know that there were jump seats in the car so that there would have been people sitting three positions forward, one in the back seat--President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy, on the right in the jump seat--Governor Connally and Mrs. Connally and in the front seat, two Secret Service agents--people sitting three positions forward?

Mrs. HILL. I saw the Secret Service agents.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you been, prior to the time I told you just now, familiar with that arrangement of the personnel in the car?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; I knew that, and as I said, I didn't know who the people were in the car because I am new here--I don't know the Connallys, I just knew that people were in the car.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice the person sitting in the jump seat on the right-hand side, that would be the person immediately in front of President Kennedy?

Mrs. HILL. Well, I would say it was Mr. Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe him at any specific time?

Mrs. HILL. I saw a man fall to the floor.

Mr. SPECTER. And when, in point of time, did you see him fall?

Mrs. HILL. After the President was shot, but I wouldn't--it wasn't with the first shot. To me he wasn't hit when the first shot hit.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis for your saying that, Mrs. Hill?

Mrs.. HILL. Well, I just think that he was hit after Kennedy was hit because, well, just the way that it looked, I would say that he was hit later.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you associate the time that Governor Connally appeared to have been hit with any specific shot that you heard?

Mrs. HILL. The second.

Mr. SPECTER. And what specifically did you observe at the time of the second shot?

Mrs. HILL. Well, that's what I thought had happened--that they had hit someone in the front part of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe at the time of the third shot?

Mrs. HILL. President Kennedy was hit again and he had further buffeted his body and I didn't realize at the time what it was--I remarked to my friends in the police station that day--did she notice his hair standing up, because it did. It just rippled up like this.

Mr. SPECTER. And at what time was that?

Mrs. HILL. On the third shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice Governor Connally at the time of the third shot?

Mrs. HILL. I never saw him again.

Mr. SPECTER. What occurred at the time of the fourth shot which you believe you heard?

Mrs. HILL. Well, at that time, of course, there was a pause and I took the other shots--about that time Mary grabbed me and was yelling and I had looked away from what was going on here and I thought, because I guess from the TV and movies, that it was Secret Service agents shooting back. To me, if somebody shoots at somebody they always shoot back and so I just thought that that's what it was and I thought, well, they are getting him and shooting back, you know; I didn't know.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was the President's car at the time you thought you heard the fourth shot?

Mrs. HILL. The motorcade came to almost a halt at the time the shots rang out, and I would say it was just approximately, if not--it couldn't have been in the same position, I'm sure it wasn't, but just a very, very short distance from where it had been. It was just almost stunned.

Mr. SPECTER. And how about the time of the fifth shot, where do you think the President's car was?

Mrs. HILL. That was during those shots, I think it wasn't any further than a few feet--further down.

Mr. SPECTER. Which shots, now--you mean the fourth, and perhaps the fifth and perhaps the sixth shot?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to say what anyone was doing or what events were occurring at the time of the fourth through perhaps the sixth shots which you have testified about?

Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, at that time she was yelling at me and on the ground.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was yelling at you?

Mrs. HILL. Mary, my friend, was yelling at me and she was down on the ground and I looked up and I could see everyone was just stunned, there was immobility all around and I just stood there looking around and I'm sure there wasn't a pause--it seemed like an eternity but I'm sure there was just a slight pause before things started moving again.

Mr. SPECTER. Were the shots over by that time when things started moving again?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Then what happened on the scene?

Mrs. HILL. Well, they say Mrs. Kennedy climbed up on the back of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe that?

Mrs. HILL. No; I have seen pictures that show that she must have, but I ran across the street.

Mr. SPECTER. To the----

Mrs. HILL. Other side.

Mr. SPECTER. North side of Elm Street?

Mrs. HILL. That's right. I saw a man up there running, or getting away or walking away or something--I would say he was running.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was that man when you first saw him?

Mrs. HILL. He was right up there by the School Depository, just--not at the corner where they say the shots came from, at the other end, right up on the slope at the top of the slope.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that be in front of the School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. At the west end?

Mrs. HILL. More to the west end.

Mr. SPECTER. Would it be between the westernmost point of the building and some other point in the building? Was he at the westernmost point or farther east than the westernmost point?

Mrs. HILL. I would say he was farther east than the westernmost point.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw a diagram for me in rough outline, starting with Houston Street----

Mrs. HILL. Yes; but I can't do this very well.

Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to draw an outline, then, to get your bearing here and realizing that I want your recollection, and I'll ask you the questions. Assume that Houston Street is the street which I am marking Houston. Assume that this is Main Street. Assume that Elm Street curves down in the manner that I am drawing and marking.

Mrs. HILL. All right.

Mr. SPECTER. Assume that the Texas School Book Depository is this large building which I will mark "TSBD." Now, would you place with the letter "A" where you were at the time the President went by?

Mrs. HILL. Well, I would have to place the President first.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine--place him with the letter "X".

Mrs. HILL. All right--if he were here----

Mr. SPECTER. Now, was he in the center of the street or on the side of the street?

Mrs. HILL. He was on the side--he wasn't just completely over there, but he was past the center of the street and we were----

Mr. SPECTER. Now, place yourself with the letter "A".

Mrs. HILL. Right there [indicating].

Mr. SPECTER. Make it a big printed "A" for us.

Mrs. HILL. Okay. [Complied with request of counsel Specter.]

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you place the position you ran to after the President's car went by?

Mrs. HILL. By that time, I'm sure the car was here--it was on down a little way, and I ran behind here.

Mr. SPECTER. Draw a line to where you ran.

Mrs. HILL. All right--I don't know whether I've got this just right--but I ran approximately right up through here.

Mr. SPECTER. Put a "B" here where you were when you came to a stop on the other side of the street.

Mrs. HILL. These steps.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, where were you when you first noticed the----

Mrs. HILL. These steps that go up--I guess you've looked at the site, there are some steps down there that go up to that promenade, or whatever you call it.

Mr. SPECTER. That go in a generally westerly direction?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Beyond the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; and I was just on this side----

Mr. SPECTER. "This side"--you are meaning--the east of it?

Mrs. HILL. The east of it.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you beyond the westernmost point of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. You were still in front of that building?

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, is the letter "B" now in the position where you were when you first saw that man?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was that man, indicating with the letter "C," where he was? He was very close to you?

Mrs. HILL. Well, he was at the top of this hill--you don't leave me any space in here--I mean, there's a distance in here greater than what is shown here.

Mr. SPECTER. He was between Elm Street and the Depository Building?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you see him going?

Mrs. HILL. I saw him go toward the tracks, toward the railroad tracks to the west?

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe about that man, if anything?

Mrs. HILL. That he just had on a brown overcoat and a hat.

Mr. SPECTER. Why was your attention attracted to him?

Mrs. HILL. Because he was the only thing moving up there. The other people were all grief stricken and standing there and I don't know what I would have done with him when I got up there, but I don't know why I even had the instinct to run, and I don't know that it is anything even connected with this, but since I had already--I have told it and it is part of my recollection, I am just stating it again.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, was there anything about the man that attracted your attention to him beside the fact that he was moving?

Mrs. HILL. I just thought at the time--that's the man that did it.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you think that this was the man that did it?

Mrs. HILL. I just don't know--I mean--that was my thought.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see any weapon in his hand?

Mrs. HILL. No; I never saw a weapon during the whole time, in anyone's hand.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see that man from the front?

Mrs. HILL. As well as I remember, now, when I saw him he was turning and going to the west.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he in the process of turning when you first saw him?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; I would say he was turning.

Mr. SPECTER. So that you had some view of his front part of his body?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you see any weapon at that time?

Mrs. HILL. No, sir; he was three-fourths turned by the time I did see him.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you see both of his hands at that time?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you see one of his hands at that time?

Mrs. HILL. No; I do not even remember seeing his hands.

Mr. SPECTER. I mean, if he was turning, his hands would have been visible, wouldn't they?

Mrs. HILL. They surely would have been.

Mr. SPECTER. So, what you are saying is, you don't have any recollection of seeing his hands?

Mrs. HILL. I have no recollection--that's right.

Mr. SPECTER. But from the position of his body, his hands would have been in the position where they could have been observed?

Mrs. HILL. That's right--surely.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you have any recollection of observing any weapon in either hand?

Mrs. HILL. No; I never saw a weapon the whole time.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you moved from point "A" at the time you first saw him?

Mrs. HILL. That's the reason I ran across the street.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him while you were at point "A"?

Mrs. HILL. Do you mean prior to the shots? Yes; I saw him, that's the reason why I went across the street.

Mr. SPECTER. So, you saw him when you were at point "A"?

Mrs. HILL. That's right--that's the reason I left that spot.

Mr. SPECTER. And he was at point "C" when you first saw him?

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he move before you moved?

Mrs. HILL. His moving made me start after him.

Mr. SPECTER. So, he did move before you moved?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; and as I came across the street--as I said--I never did see Mrs. Kennedy get up or anything, because when I ran across the street, the first motorcycle that was right behind her nearly hit me turning around, because I looked up in his face and he was looking all around.

Mr. SPECTER. You mean the policeman?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; and I don't think he ever did see me. I just looked at him and dodged then because I thought his wheel was going to hit me, and I don't think he ever did see me, and I ran across through there and started up the hill. When I looked down on the ground, I mean, as I was running up the hill to catch that man, I looked down and saw some red stuff and I thought, "Oh, they got him, he's bleeding," and this is embarrassing, but it turned out to be Koolade or some sort of red drink.

Mr. SPECTER. You thought they had gotten the man who was running away?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. You thought that perhaps the second burst of shots you heard were being directed toward him by the Secret Service?

Mrs. HILL. I just thought, "Oh, goodness, the Secret Service is shooting back."

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe what that man looked like?

Mrs. HILL. He wasn't----

Mr. SPECTER. How tall was he?

Mrs. HILL. He wasn't very tall.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he more than 5 feet tall, or can you give me any meaningful description of him?

Mrs. HILL. Well, yes; but I don't want to.

Mr. SPECTER. Why is that?

Mrs. HILL. Well, because I had told several people and I also said it that day down there and the person that I described, and I am fully aware that his whereabouts have been known at all times, and that it seems that I am merely using a figure and converting it to my story, but the person that I saw looked a lot like--I would say the general build as I would think Jack Ruby would from that position. But I have talked with the FBI about this and I told them I realized that his whereabouts had been covered at all times and of course I didn't--at that time I didn't realize that the shots were coming from the building. I frankly thought they were coming from the knoll.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you think they were coming from the knoll?

Mrs. HILL. That was just my idea where they were coming from.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw the knoll on the picture, where you mean by the knoll?

Mrs. HILL. This area in front of the Book Depository--it's right here.

Mr. SPECTER. Just draw me a circle as to where you had a general impression the shots were coming from.

Mrs. HILL. This is a hill and it was like they were coming from right in there. That's when I looked up and saw that man and all the rest of the people were stunned and not moving in that area and yet he was getting out of there--I thought that probably he had done it, and so I went to catch him, for some reason.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have a conscious impression of the source of the first shot that you heard, that is, where it came from?

Mrs. HILL. Well, evidently I didn't because the only conscious recollection I have of that--I mean--until all this other came out--I had always thought that they came from the knoll.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any conscious impression of where the second shot came from?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Any conscious impression of where this third shot came from?

Mrs. HILL. Not any different from any of them. I thought it was just people shooting from the knoll--I did think there was more than one person shooting.

Mr. SPECTER. You did think there was more than one person shooting?

Mrs. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What made you think that?

Mrs. HILL. The way the gun report sounded and the difference in the way they were fired--the timing.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your impression as to the source of the second group of shots which you have described as the fourth, perhaps the fifth, and perhaps the sixth shot?

Mrs. HILL. Well, nothing, except that I thought that they were fired by someone else.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you have any idea where they were coming from?

Mrs. HILL. No; as I said, I thought they were coming from the general direction of that knoll.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, did you think that the Secret Service was firing them from that knoll?

Mrs. HILL. I said I didn't know--I really don't.

Mr. SPECTER. You just had the general impression that shots were coming from the knoll?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And you had the general impression that the Secret Service was firing the second group of shots at the man who fired the first group of shots?

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. But you had no specific impression as to the source of those shots?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you get a very good look at that man, who you say was starting to run?

Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, when I looked down at this red stuff on the ground, I said, "Oh," you know, to myself, "they hit him." You know, I was going to follow that, and when I looked up again, I looked all around and I couldn't see him anywhere and I kept running toward the train tracks and I looked all around out there and I couldn't see him--I looked everywhere and I heard someone yelling something about--it was just this voice that was yelling, "It looks like he got away," or something--I thought I had been right, you know, that he had really gone up there and he had gotten away some way in the tracks or had gone around behind the Depository, and so, I didn't know where he had gone. By that time I saw policemen--where he had gone. By that time I saw policemen--some were coming off of their motorcycles just around the curb here--just at the underpass here, and of course, the motorcade sped away and the policemen were coming from all sorts of different directions, people were closing in, and all I could think of was, "I want to get out of here fast. I don't want to be caught by anybody. I don't want to be in on anything," and everytime anybody would come toward me I would go another way until I got off of that hill back up there where the tracks were.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you run up toward the hill?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; I ran up toward the railroad tracks.

Mr. SPECTER. Let me draw the triple underpass there, and you ran up to what point--where? About the point of "D" here?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you run up there--after the man?

Mrs. HILL. I was still looking for him. I didn't know where he had gone. I heard lots of people yelling, "Did he get away, did he get away, and which way did he go."

Mr. SPECTER. You were trying to catch him?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. But you couldn't find him any more?

Mrs. HILL. No; I just couldn't find him again. When I stopped to look down at the grass, at this red stuff and when I looked back up, by that time everyone was screaming and moving around.

Mr. SPECTER. And where were you when you looked down at the ground? Point it out to me on the diagram.

Mrs. HILL. The steps that go up to this colonnade thing right there and I saw it right about here.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, mark it with the letter "E" there.

Mrs. HILL. All right.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, a moment ago you said you didn't want to say anything more about the identity of the man. Why did you tell me that, Mrs. Hill?

Mrs. HILL. Well, because I have had an awful lot of fun made of me over being a witness in this and I'm real tired of it.

Mr. SPECTER. Who made fun of you?

Mrs. HILL. Well, quite a lot of people.

Mr. SPECTER. Anybody connected with the official investigation in the case?

Mrs. HILL. No, oh, no; it was just people, but people that I know.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, and why have they made fun of you, because of your identification of who that man was?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Any other reason?

Mrs. HILL. Yes--I saw a dog in the car. They kept asking me, and I even gave that out on a radio or TV interview that I had seen a dog in the car.

Mr. SPECTER. In which car?

Mrs. HILL. Between the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and they kept asking me what kind of a dog and I said, "I don't know, I wasn't interested in what was in the seat," but I said, "It was white and fuzzy," and I said, "It was something white and kind of fuzzy and it was in the seat between them," and I said, "I just got to thinking--it must be a small dog," because I had remarked to my girl friend as they were taking us in the police station, I said, "Why?" I said, "I could see Liz Taylor or the Gabors traveling with a bunch of dogs, but I can't see the Kennedys traveling with dogs. Why would they have a dog with them on tour?" And, when we remarked about that she and I both--and I said, "Did you see it? What kind of a dog was it? Why were they taking a dog?" I found out later that it was those roses in the seat, but I knew they were looking at something and I just barely glanced and I saw this.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other reason people made fun of you?

Mrs. HILL. Well, basically, the people that made fun of me was my husband, and, of course, that was because--does this have to go in the record?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; only in the sense that we are putting everything on the record. This really isn't too important but it is the best procedure to follow, that everything be written down.

Mrs. HILL. Well.

Mr. SPECTER. In a situation of this sort.

Mrs. HILL. Well, because I talked with an Oklahoma twang, and called Mrs. Kennedy "Jackie" and I said, "He pitched forward in Jackie's lap," and I just didn't rehearse it and do it right at all, because I didn't know it was going to be taken down.

Mr. SPECTER. And those are the reasons your husband made fun of you?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; and because I saw a dog and he was thoroughly hilarious when he found out that it was roses in the back seat and that I had seen a dog, and he said, "Of all people in the United States you would have to see a dog."

Mr. SPECTER. Has anybody made fun of you besides your husband?

Mrs. HILL. No; not really, but he's done enough for a whole bunch of people.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, going back to the question of the description of this man, can you describe him in any more detail than you already have?

Mrs. HILL. No; I haven't--I can't.

Mr. SPECTER. His height you said was about the height of Jack Ruby?

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. How about his weight?

Mrs. HILL. That's the only thing--I would say--he certainly wasn't any bigger than Jack Ruby.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he smaller than Jack Ruby?

Mrs. HILL. He could have been smaller.

Mr. SPECTER. How about--was he wearing a hat?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; I said he was wearing a hat.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he wearing a top coat?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; an overcoat.

Mr. SPECTER. And was he wearing a tie, could you tell?

Mrs. HILL. I didn't notice. It was a brown, I mean, I just got the impression of a brown hat.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give me an estimate of his age?

Mrs. HILL. I would say the man was middle aged, or say, I would say 40.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he a white man or a Negro?

Mrs. HILL. He was a white man.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe him in any other way to me?

Mrs. HILL. No; I can't.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you think he was, in fact, Jack Ruby?

Mrs. HILL. That, I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you told me all that you can recollect about this man and your reason for moving toward him?

Mrs. HILL. Yes, as far as I know.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you were at point "D," what did you do after being at point "D," which we have marked on the diagram?

Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, the policemen were coming by that time from different areas, coming and closing this place off, and I was dodging them, trying to get back across the street.

Mr. SPECTER. Back across Elm Street?

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you in fact dodge them?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And get back across Elm Street?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did you do next?

Mrs. HILL. There was a man holding Mary's arm and she was crying and he had hold of her camera trying to take it with him.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was that?

Mrs. HILL. Featherstone of the Times Herald, and----

Mr. SPECTER. Dallas Times Herald?