Chapter XI: Part 11

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, we take care of a lot of bullet wounds down there--I don't know how many a year.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any formal studies of bullet holes?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Oh, no; nothing except my experience in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. In what?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. In the emergency room is all.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done to the President after he arrived at the emergency room?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well the first thing, his endotracheal tube was inserted.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present all the time he was in the emergency room?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Except when I left out to get blood.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long were you gone?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Oh, about 3 minutes or so--3 or 4 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you present when he was pronounced dead?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done with the President's body after he was pronounced to be dead?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, after the last rites were said, we then undressed him and cleaned him up and wrapped him up in sheets until the coffin was brought.

Mr. SPECTER. And after the coffin arrived, what was done with his body?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. He was placed in the coffin.

Mr. SPECTER. What had he been on up until that time?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. An emergency room cart.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that also described as a stretcher?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. A stretcher--yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe what this stretcher looked like?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, how do you describe a stretcher--it's just a long----

Mr. SPECTER. Made of metal?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes; it's made of metal.

Mr. SPECTER. On roller wheels?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Roller wheels with a rubber mattress on it, rubber covered mattress on it.

Mr. SPECTER. And after he was taken off of the stretcher, what was left on the stretcher at that time?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Just some sheets and I guess there were some dirty syringes and needles laying on it that we picked up.

Mr. SPECTER. That you picked up--where were they placed?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. We placed them on a tray and took them all out to the utility room.

Mr. SPECTER. How many sheets were there on the stretcher?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, I am really not sure--there was probably about two or three.

Mr. SPECTER. And in what position were they all on the stretcher after President Kennedy's body was removed?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, one was covering the whole mattress and there was one or two that we had left just under his head, that had been placed under his head.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with those sheets?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. They were all rolled up and taken to the dirty linen hamper.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who took those to the dirty linen hamper?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. To the best of my knowledge, the orderly.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was he?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. David Sanders--is that his name?

Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with the stretcher?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. It was rolled into the room across the hall.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you actually see the stretcher that President Kennedy was on rolled into the room across the hall?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And into which room was it rolled?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Room 2.

Mr. SPECTER. What was that?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Room 2.

Mr. SPECTER. Emergency room No. 2?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And, when it was rolled into emergency room 2, were the sheets still all on, or were they off at that time?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I believe they were off.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it possible that the stretcher that Mr. Kennedy was on was rolled with the sheets on it down into the area near the elevator?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure of that?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I am positive of that.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you anything to add that you think might be helpful to the Commission?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir; I don't think of anything.

Mr. SPECTER. Did I talk to you about the purpose of the Commission and the same questions that I have been asking and the answers that you have been giving for a few minutes before the Court reporter came in to take this down in shorthand?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me the same information at that time?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. To the best of my ability.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming.

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Okay.

(At this point the witness, Henchliffe, was thereupon excused from the deposing room.)

(In approximately 3 minutes thereafter the witness returned to the deposing room and the deposition continued as follows:)

Mr. SPECTER. Let me ask you a couple of questions more, Miss Henchliffe, one other question, or two, before you go.

Was the wound on the front of the neck surrounded by any blood?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any blood at all in that area?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What was there about the wound, if you recall anything special, which gave you the impression it was an entrance wound?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, it was just a small wound and wasn't jagged like most of the exit bullet wounds that I have seen.

Mr. SPECTER. If there was a high-powered rifle, or a high-powered rifle was going at a fast speed, as fast as 2,000 feet per second, which encountered only soft tissue in the body, would you have sufficient knowledge to know whether or not the appearance of that hole would be consistent with an exit wound?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, from some information I received in talking to someone about guns later on, they said that this is possible. But you have a small exit wound--you could have a small exit wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Under what circumstances?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. As you described--a very fast bullet that didn't hit anything but soft tissue going through.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you have any other source of information or basis for having an opinion whether it was an entrance wound or an exit wound other than that source of information you just described, plus your general experience here at Parkland as a nurse?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been at Parkland as a nurse?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, I have had emergency room experience for about 5 years here and a couple of years at Baylor Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that the total sum of your experience?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. In the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what other experience have you had besides emergency room experience?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, in the operating room here.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you had operating room experience here?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. 3 years.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been a registered nurse altogether?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. 12 years--almost 12 years.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is the source of information about the appearance of an exit wound from a high-powered gun which you have just described?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I don't remember who I was talking to now. I was just talking to someone one day about gunshots and after this report came out that said that any high-powered gun that this could happen.

Mr. SPECTER. That it could be an exit wound which looked very much like an entrance wound with the missile striking nothing but soft tissue?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else to add?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much.

Miss HENCHLIFFE. All right.

TESTIMONY OF DORIS MAE NELSON

The testimony of Doris Mae Nelson was taken on March 20, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Nelson, this is Miss Oliver, the court reporter, and will you raise your right hand and take the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in this proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. NELSON. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mrs. Doris Nelson is appearing to testify in this deposition proceeding conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy to provide whatever facts, if any, she may know concerning the treatment received by President Kennedy and Governor Connally at Parkland Memorial Hospital on November 22, 1963.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mrs. NELSON. Doris Mae Nelson. Do you want my maiden name?

Mr. SPECTER. Fine, yes; what is your maiden name?

Mrs. NELSON. Morris, M-o-r-r-i-s [spelling].

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Nelson, have you had an opportunity to view the joint resolution of the 88th Congress and the Executive order which established the President's Commission?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; I read it yesterday.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you had an opportunity to view the resolution of the President's Commission covering questioning of witnesses by members of the Commission staff?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to be questioned today concerning this matter, even though you have not had 3 days' notice?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Therefore waiving the right which you have, a 3 days' notice under the resolution?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession?

Mrs. NELSON. I am a registered nurse, supervisor of the emergency room at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been so occupied?

Mrs. NELSON. A year and 6 months as supervisor of the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties in a general way on November 22, 1963?

Mrs. NELSON. I was primarily responsible for assigning personnel in the treatment of the injured patients and carrying out security measures with the Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. What notification, if any, did you receive on that date concerning injuries to President Kennedy?

Mrs. NELSON. I received a phone call approximately 3 to 5 minutes prior to their arrival, from the telephone operator, stating that the President had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. What action after that did you take in preparing for the President's arrival?

Mrs. NELSON. I immediately took the surgical resident into trauma room No. 1, notified him of the incident, and asked the--also told the head nurse that the President had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room.

Then, I went into trauma room 2, after the head nurse had told me that trauma room 1 was set up for any emergency, and proceeded to open a bottle of intravenous fluid and set it up for an emergency situation.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you know at that time that anyone else had been injured?

Mrs. NELSON. No; we were not notified as to anyone else being injured.

Mr. SPECTER. What occurred with respect to the arrival of any injured party at Parkland Memorial Hospital thereafter?

Mrs. NELSON. As I walked out of trauma room No. 2 I heard someone calling for stretchers and an orderly ran back into the area and got a stretcher and ran out of the door, and a few seconds later Governor Connally, who at that time I did not know who it was but recognized him as not being the President, arrived and I directed them into trauma room 2.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the orderly take out one stretcher, or was more than one stretcher taken out?

Mrs. NELSON. I do not know exactly how many stretchers were taken out at the time because I was not out at that area.

Mr. SPECTER. Did another stretcher come into the area?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; immediately behind the Governor another stretcher was brought back into the emergency room and on this stretcher was President Kennedy.

Mr. SPECTER. How were you able to identify President Kennedy?

Mrs. NELSON. Well, I could look and see him and tell that it was him.

Mr. SPECTER. What part did you see?

Mrs. NELSON. The--mainly his head.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any coat covering his face?

Mrs. NELSON. There was a coat thrown across the top of him, not completely covering his face, and Mrs. Kennedy--do you want me to tell about Mrs. Kennedy and the flowers?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; continue. Yes; in answering the questions, Mrs. Nelson, feel perfectly free to make as full an answer to the question--I hesitate to have you stop, so that the record we make will appear continuous and everything may be recorded fully for our record purposes.

Mrs. NELSON. Mrs. Kennedy was walking beside the stretcher and the roses that she had been given at the airport were lying on top of the President and her hat was also lying on top of the President as he was brought into the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was he then taken?

Mrs. NELSON. He was immediately taken into trauma room 1.

Mr. SPECTER. And who, if anyone, was present at that time to attend him in a medical way?

Mrs. NELSON. Dr. Carrico, a surgical resident was there at the time that he was brought in, and Dr. Perry, an associate professor of surgery arrived shortly thereafter, and several doctors arrived, Dr. Baxter, associate professor of surgery, Dr. Kemp Clark, professor of neurosurgery and chairman of the department; Dr. Bashour--

Mr. SPECTER. Spell, please.

Mrs. NELSON. B-a-s-h-o-u-r (spelling), chairman of the Department of Cardiology, and several other doctors who I cannot recall all the names at the present time.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present inside of the emergency room where President Kennedy was taken?

Mrs. NELSON. When what?

Mr. SPECTER. Were you in there at the time they were treating him, caring for him at any time?

Mrs. NELSON. On one occasion I went into the room and this was mainly to ask Mrs. Kennedy if she had rather wait out in the hallway rather than in the room where they were treating the President, and I was told by the Secret Service agent that she may stay in there if she wished.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any table, or was there any table in the emergency room to which President Kennedy was taken that he could be placed on from the stretcher?

Mrs. NELSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it the normal situation to have no table present in the emergency room?

Mrs. NELSON. The only one there is in case an ambulance should bring a patient in, but if a patient comes in the emergency room on a stretcher, then the stretcher that is in there is removed. Then the patient remains on the same stretcher that he comes into the emergency room on.

Mr. SPECTER. And was there a stretcher in the emergency room at the time President Kennedy was taken in on a second stretcher?

Mrs. NELSON. It was taken out when they wheeled it in.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any sheets on the stretcher that President Kennedy was on?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. After President Kennedy was taken off of the stretcher, did you have occasion to observe that stretcher?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; the stretcher was stripped by the nursing personnel working in the room and the stretcher was moved across from trauma room 1 to trauma room 2 in order to get the stretcher out of the room.

Mr. SPECTER. What personnel stripped the stretcher?

Mrs. NELSON. Margaret Henchliffe, H-e-n-c-h-l-i-f-f-e [spelling], and Diana Bowron, D-i-a-n-a B-o-w-r-o-n [spelling].

Mr. SPECTER. Did you actually observe Diana Bowron or Margaret Henchliffe strip the stretcher?

Mrs. NELSON. No; I did not. This was the report that I received afterwards.

Mr. SPECTER. From whom did you receive that report?

Mrs. NELSON. From these two nurses.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see the stretcher after it was stripped in the emergency room to which President Kennedy was taken?

Mrs. NELSON. No, I saw it after it was wheeled from trauma room 1 to trauma room 2, because I was standing there at the doorway between the two rooms with the Secret Service Police.

Mr. SPECTER. But it was actually in trauma room 1?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. As it was being wheeled out to trauma room 2 and at the time it was being wheeled out, was there any sheet on it at all----

Mrs. NELSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Rolled up on it in any way at all?

Mrs. NELSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see where the stretcher was then placed?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes, it was put into trauma room 2.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was President Kennedy's body at that time?

Mrs. NELSON. It was in--it had been placed in a casket in trauma room 1.

Mr. SPECTER. And was the casket on any sort of an object or was it on the floor or what?

Mrs. NELSON. It was on a form of roller-type table.

Mr. SPECTER. And did--do you know what President Kennedy's body was in, if anything, at that time?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes, one of the nurses, Miss Hutton, came out and said that the President was having extensive bleeding from the head and they had wrapped four sheets around it but it was still oozing through, so I sent her to the second floor to obtain a mattress cover, a plastic mattress cover, to put in the casket prior to putting his body in the casket, so the mattress cover was placed in the casket and I did not see this happen, but this is how it was explained to me by the nurse, and the plastic was placed on the mattress cover and the cover was around the mattress.

Mr. SPECTER. Which nurse explained that to you?

Mrs. NELSON. Miss Bowron and Miss Henchliffe.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with the sheets which had been used to absorb the blood from the President's body?

Mrs. NELSON. Well, there were approximately four sheets wrapped around him and the remaining sheets that were on the stretcher were pulled up and thrown in the linen hamper, according to Miss Bowron and Miss Henchliffe.

Mr. SPECTER. And where is that linen hamper located?

Mrs. NELSON. That linen hamper is located in the utility room area of the emergency room, which is just outside of the trauma room area.

Mr. SPECTER. And what floor is that on?

Mrs. NELSON. On the ground floor of the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done with Governor Connally?

Mrs. NELSON. Governor Connally was in the emergency room for a very short period, approximately 15 to 20 minutes, at which time he had chest tubes inserted, intravenous fluid started, anesthesia or oxygen given to him, and he was taken immediately from the emergency room to the operating room accompanied by several doctors.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him inside trauma room No. 2?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you observe him when he was taken out of trauma room No. 2?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes, I saw him when he went upstairs to the operating room.

Mr. SPECTER. And how did he get upstairs to the operating room?

Mrs. NELSON. On a stretcher carried by several of the doctors. Miss Standridge went in front, and opened doorways and went to the elevator. I could not see her at the elevator but this is what she told me.

Mr. SPECTER. How far could you see her?

Mrs. NELSON. Oh, approximately 30 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. And who is Miss Standridge?

Mrs. NELSON. Head nurse in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. What is her first name?

Mrs. NELSON. Jeanette.

Mr. SPECTER. You say the stretcher was carried?

Mrs. NELSON. Well, it was wheeled.

Mr. SPECTER. And what does the stretcher look like that Governor Connally was on?

Mrs. NELSON. Well, there are no specific details, it's an average type of movable four-wheel stretcher, made out of metal, with a plastic mattress on the stretcher. It has an elevation between--on the sides, so that the--I don't know how to explain exactly.

Mr. SPECTER. A bumper-type effect?

Mrs. NELSON. It has a bumper on the side.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there a tray underneath the place where the body was resting?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that the same general description of a stretcher that President Kennedy was brought in on?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; they were the same type.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Nelson, I'm going to show you a four-page statement which is marked "Activities of Doris Nelson, R.N., beginning 12 noon, Friday, November 22, 1963," after I ask that it be marked as an exhibit in connection with this deposition.

(Reporter marked the instrument referred to as Nelson Exhibit No. 1.)

Mr. SPECTER. Is this a photostatic copy of the statement which you gave to Mr. Jack Price, the administrator of the hospital, concerning your activities on November 22, 1963, as they pertain to this matter?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth herein true and correct to the best of your knowledge, information and belief?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; they are.

Mr. SPECTER. Did I meet with you for a few moments before we started this deposition and explain the purpose of the proceeding?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; you did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did I ask you the same questions which we have discussed here during the course of my questioning before the court reporter?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for providing this deposition to us.

Mrs. NELSON. You are quite welcome.

Mr. SPECTER. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record between Mr. Specter and the witness, Mrs. Doris Nelson.)

Mr. SPECTER. Back on the record, just a minute.

Mrs. Nelson, I will ask you if you would sign the end of this statement here, that it is your statement?

Mrs. NELSON. (Signed statement referred to.)

Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to waive a requirement, if it is any formal requirement, as to the signing of this deposition?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; I am.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES JACK PRICE

The testimony of Charles Jack Price was taken at 4:50 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that C. Jack Price is present to have his deposition taken in connection with the inquiry of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is concerned with the medical care rendered at Parkland Memorial Hospital to President John F. Kennedy and to Governor John B. Connally.

Authorization has been obtained to take the deposition of Mr. Price and he has had access to the copy of the Executive order creating the President's Commission----

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And the rules relating to the taking of depositions of witnesses. Is it satisfactory with you to have your deposition taken without having the 3-day waiting period between the request and the taking of the deposition?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you stand up, Mr. Price, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission and in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PRICE. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. PRICE. Charles Jack Price.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your official title here?

Mr. PRICE. Administrator, Dallas County Hospital district, comprised of Parkland Memorial Hospital and Woodlawn Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Price, in connection with your duties at Parkland Memorial Hospital, did you request that all of the individuals who participated in the care and treatment of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, or at least those who were principally concerned with that treatment, prepare and submit reports to you concerning that treatment?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; through Dr. Kemp Clark, who is chairman of our medical records committee.

Mr. SPECTER. And where have those records been kept after submission through Dr. Kemp Clark?

Mr. PRICE. The records were brought directly to my office. In fact, some of the records were written in my office and since that time have been kept in my custody, specifically under lock and key in my desk drawer.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you a document which has heretofore been marked as "Commission Exhibit No. 392," and I ask you if this constitutes all of the records of the doctors who examined and treated President Kennedy and Governor Connally which are in your possession, that is all the records which were made by the examining doctors?

Mr. PRICE. (Examining instrument referred to.) Do you want my comments as I go through this or do you want me to look through it and say "Yes," or "No"?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; I would like to just be sure for the record that those are all of the records. You and I went through them the other day informally and at that time you supplemented my records to some extent, which I will put on the deposition record here.

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Perhaps, before going to Commission Exhibit No. 392, permit me to have this photostatic copy marked Mr. Price's Exhibit No. 2.

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 2, for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. And I ask you if this is a photostatic copy of a letter which was sent by Dr. Kemp Clark to Dr. Burkley, the President's private physician?

Mr. PRICE. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. And with that, the summary of all the treatments performed at Parkland, which was prepared by Dr. Kemp Clark?

Mr. PRICE. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. And below that, another summary sheet which bears the corrected notation, with your signature over it, that the President arrived at the emergency room at exactly 12:38 p.m., with 12:43 scratched out?

Mr. PRICE. That's correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as you move through your file, permit me to also ask the reporter to mark as Mr. Price's Exhibit No. 3, an affidavit of Ulah McCoy, and I'll ask you if that is a copy of an original in your file?

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 3, for identification.)

Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. And I will ask her to mark as Mr. Price Exhibit No. 4 an affidavit of Doris Nelson and I'll ask you if that is a copy of a report in your possession?

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 4, for identification.)

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Your next report is one from Dr. M. T. Jenkins?

Mr. PRICE. Professor and chairman of the department of anesthesiology.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that a copy of the document which you are looking at here?

Mr. PRICE. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. As part of Exhibit 392?

Mr. PRICE. That's right, and my next one is the statement of Dr. W. Kemp Clark.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that the original of a copy of which appears in this group of papers as Exhibit No. 392?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is. The next one that I have is the statement of Dr. Perry.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that the original of a copy of a statement which appears in Exhibit 392?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; the statement of Dr. Charles W. Baxter.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the original of a copy which appears in Exhibit 392?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is; that's the statement of Dr. Carrico.

Mr. SPECTER. And is this the copy of the original of Dr. Carrico's statement?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is; and this is Dr. McClelland's statement.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photostatic copy of what purports to be Dr. McClelland's statement, and is that a copy of the original in your file?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your next report?

Mr. PRICE. My next report is Dr. Bashour's report.

Mr. SPECTER. And I show you a sheet in the group of papers marked Exhibit 392, and ask you if that is a photostatic copy of the original in your file?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is next?

Mr. PRICE. My next one is the summary of Dr. Ronald C. Jones.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, I'll ask you if this is a photostatic copy of the original of the statement by Dr. Ronald Jones which is in your file?

Mr. PRICE. May I see it, please?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

(Handed instrument referred to to the witness.)

Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, does that constitute all of the original records concerning the treatment of President John F. Kennedy in your file?

Mr. PRICE. With one exception--there is in the file that I have of Governor Connally the original of the transcript of "Registration of patients," which I furnished you a photostat of, our number being 01811.

Mr. SPECTER. And is this a photostatic copy of that registration of patients?

Mr. PRICE. It is; and I think I reviewed it with you at the time I gave this to you--the transverse of patients No. 2 and No. 5.

Mr. SPECTER. No. 5 is marked John Connally and No. 2 is John F. Kennedy, and how should that have been marked?

Mr. PRICE. The first patient in the hospital was Governor Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. So, he should have been No. 2?

Mr. PRICE. So, he should have been No. 2 as shown on the transcript.

Mr. SPECTER. And the President should have been noted as No. 5?

Mr. PRICE. The President should have been noted as No. 5.

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 5, for identification.)

Mr. PRICE. The simultaneous arrival at the ambulance dock would not affect the time as shown in the corrected copy that I gave you of the arrival there.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, turn if you will, to the records on Governor Connally and I will ask you if as part of Commission Exhibit 392, we have photostatic copies of the operative records starting, first with the operation performed by Dr. Shaw.

Mr. PRICE. I have the original of that but this is the complete medical charts that I have here.

Mr. SPECTER. As to this report alone, do you have the original in that record?

Mr. PRICE. Here it is.

Mr. SPECTER. And is this an exact photocopy of the original report prepared by Dr. Robert Shaw, the original of which appears in your record on Governor Connally?

Mr. PRICE. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. Is this an exact photostatic copy of the report of Dr. Charles Gregory?

Mr. PRICE. There has been since this photostat was made and forwarded to you--Dr. Gregory, prior to signing the official copy, did make some pencil corrections, and I will be glad to have the original photostated or Xeroxed now and give you a corrected copy if you would like?

Mr. SPECTER. That would be fine, and perhaps it would be faster just to read those changes into our record here. However, let's pursue the line of getting a Xerox copy.

Now, turning to the report of Dr. Shires, is this a true and correct photostatic copy of Dr. Shires' report?

Mr. PRICE. It is; it is a correct copy.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, I show you a large group of papers which I am going to ask the reporter to mark Mr. Price Exhibits Nos. 6, 7, 8, and 9.

(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibits Nos. 6, 7, 8, and 9, for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a group of papers, and as they are being marked, if you would take a look at them. Price Exhibit No. 6--I'll ask you if these are photostatic copies of reports which you have made available to me of originals which you have in your file made by various members of your staff, concerning the events of November 22, and November 24.

Mr. PRICE. Do you want these individually or as a group?

Mr. SPECTER. If you would identify the contents of the statement by the exhibit number which we have put on it, starting with the first numerical designation, would probably be the simplest. Exhibit 6 is what?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 6 is a Xerox copy of the floor plan of the emergency area. This is correct.

The Exhibit No. 7, the statement is unsigned, but this is the Xerox copy of the summary submitted to me by my assistant, Mr. Steve Landregan.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is his position with the hospital?

Mr. PRICE. He is assistant administrator.

Mr. SPECTER. In charge of press relations among other things?

Mr. PRICE. In charge of press relations among other things.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Exhibit No. 8?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 8 is a Xerox copy of Peter Geilich's statement to me. Mr. Geilich is administrative assistant, with primary assignment over at the Woodlawn unit, and he is also the acting director of our outpatient clinic.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Exhibit No. 9?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 9 is a summary of the activities of Robert Dutton, Bob Dutton, who is administrative assistant and is currently our evening administrator.

(Instruments marked as Price Exhibits Nos. 10 through 32 at this time, for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. Exhibit 10 is what?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit 10 is a summary of activities of Mrs. Carol Reddick, who is administrative aide.

Exhibit No. 11 is a summary of activities of Mrs. Elizabeth L. Wright, our director of nursing service.

Mr. SPECTER. What is Exhibit No. 12?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 12 is a summary of the activities of Diana Bowron, who is an emergency room nurse.

Mr. SPECTER. Exhibit No. 13?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 13 is a summary of the activities of Sallie Lennon.

Mr. SPECTER. What is her position?

Mr. PRICE. She is a nurse.

Mr. SPECTER. I hand you Price Exhibit No. 14.

Mr. PRICE. This is a statement of the activities of C. Watkins, who is an R.N. in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And I hand you Price Exhibit No. 15

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 15 is a report of the activities of Faye Dean Shelby, and she is a nurse in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Price Exhibit No. 16?

Mr. PRICE. This is the activities of Era Lumpkin, an aide in the emergency area.

Mr. SPECTER. Price Exhibit No. 17?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 17 is a report on the activities of Jean Tarrant, who is an aide in the major medicine emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you Price Exhibit No. 18.

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit 18 is the activities of Frances Scott, who is assigned to the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Exhibit No. 19?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 19 is the activities of Willie Haywood, who is an orderly in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you Price Exhibit No. 20.

Mr. PRICE. This is a summary of the activities of Bertha L. Lozano, who is a registered nurse in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Price Exhibit No. 21?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 21 is a summary of the activities of Pat Hutton, who is an aide in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. I'll hand you Price Exhibit No. 22.

Mr. PRICE. I'm sorry, I said Hutton was an aide. She's an R.N.--in registration--a nurse.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Exhibit No. 22?

Mr. PRICE. It is a summary of the activities of Shirley Randall, an aide in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 23?

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Rosa M. Majors, an aide in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit 24?

Mr. PRICE. Price Exhibit 24 is a summary of the activities of Jill Pomeroy, who is a ward clerk in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 25?

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of David Sanders, who is an orderly in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 26?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit 26 is a summary of the activities of Tommy Dunn, who is an orderly in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 27?

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Joe Richards, an orderly in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 28?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 28 is a statement of the activities of Jeanette Standridge, an R.N. in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit 29?

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of O. P. Wright, who is the personnel director and a director of hospital security, and reports from the individual guards under his supervision.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 30?

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Margaret Henchliffe, who is assigned to the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. What is Price Exhibit No. 31?

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Doris Nelson, who is the emergency room supervisor.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 32?

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Robert G. Holcomb, who is assistant administrator in charge of correlating the professional services of the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. What is Price Exhibit No. 33?

Mr. PRICE. This is a summary of my personal impressions of the events that transpired on November 24.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit 34?

Mr. PRICE. This is a summary of my activities at the office Saturday and Sunday, the 23d and 24th.

Mr. SPECTER. Are those all of the summaries of those who made reports to you?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; they are. These are primarily the summaries of individuals who were involved in the care of our late President, in the care of Governor Connally, and in the care of Oswald, who were requested to make these summaries to my office as their activities would not normally be stated on patients' charts or in other records of the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you Price Exhibit No. 35 and ask you if that is a photostatic copy of the report of Dr. Charles Gregory, after it was altered in a few minor respects as shown on the face of the record?

Mr. PRICE. Well, if I may change this terminology?

Mr. SPECTER. Sure.

Mr. PRICE. This is a copy of Dr. Charles Gregory's records as it appears in Governor Connally's charts, which he corrected prior to signing the transcript. What I was trying to say, or wanted to make clear, was that frequently in transcribing, the medical secretaries who transcribe operative records, they make mistakes, and I wanted to be sure that there was no suggestion that the record was altered, when what Dr. Gregory has done was to write in corrections that were noticed at the time he read it and signed it.

Mr. SPECTER. I understand it was transcribed, and when he reviewed it before signing it he noticed inaccuracies in the transcription.

Mr. PRICE. That's right. This is correct. Your phraseology is much better than mine.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Mr. Price.

Mr. PRICE. Thank you, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. That's all. I wanted to put all of these in the record, Jack, to show that they are duly authenticated by the appropriate custodian of the records.

Mr. PRICE. Well, I wanted to be sure that there was no hint that the record had been altered here.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; I understand that. I think you are absolutely right on that. Thank you.

Mr. PRICE. All right. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF MALCOLM O. COUCH

The testimony of Malcolm O. Couch was taken at 9:43 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Will you please rise and raise your right hand and be sworn, sir?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. COUCH. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Be seated, please.

Mr. BELIN. You are Malcolm O. Couch?

Mr. COUCH. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Couch, we are taking your deposition here in Dallas to record your testimony for the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy--is that correct?

Mr. COUCH. That's right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you request that an attorney be present here to represent you?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. We have written you about the taking of this deposition and I assume that you have waived notice of the taking of the deposition--is that correct?

Mr. COUCH. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Couch, you have the right to look at the deposition and sign it, or you can follow the general custom and rely on the court reporter and waive the signing of the deposition--whatever you would like to do. If you would like to sign it, you can; if you want to waive signing it, you can also. Whatever you want to do.

Mr. COUCH. All right. I'll sign it.

Mr. BELIN. You want to sign it?

Mr. COUCH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. Couch, where do you live?

Mr. COUCH. 4215 Live Oak in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. And how old are you?

Mr. COUCH. Twenty-five.

Mr. BELIN. And were you born in Texas?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; born in Dallas and raised in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. And what is your educational background? Did you go through high school?

Mr. COUCH. I went to Woodrow Wilson High School here in Dallas, I have a Bachelor of Arts degree from John Brown University; and I will receive a Master of Theology degree this May from Dallas Seminary.

Mr. BELIN. You then plan, when you receive your Master of Theology degree, to become a minister?

Mr. COUCH. I will be ordained. I don't know if I will have a church or not, but I will be ordained.

Mr. BELIN. Are you married, Mr. Couch?

Mr. COUCH. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Any family at all?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; one boy--since last Friday.

Mr. BELIN. Since last Friday? Well, congratulations to you. I assume your wife and baby are doing well?

Mr. COUCH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you major in at college?

Mr. COUCH. Social science.

Mr. BELIN. What is your present occupation, Mr. Couch?

Mr. COUCH. Part-time television news cameraman with WFAA-TV in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. When you say "part time," do you mean you're going to school part time----

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. And spending part time with WFAA-TV?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been employed by WFAA-TV?

Mr. COUCH. Uh--for 2 years straight. But I worked with them full and part time, I believe, back in--starting in 1955 to 1957.

Mr. BELIN. And then what happened in 1957?

Mr. COUCH. I went to college.

Mr. BELIN. You went to college full time?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. And then you got out in 1961?

Mr. COUCH. I got out in January 1960.

Mr. BELIN. January 1960?

Mr. COUCH. Yes--and came back to Dallas and went into graduate school here.

Mr. BELIN. And when you came back to Dallas, you went to work with WFAA-TV?

Mr. COUCH. No; no. I began going to Dallas Seminary, but--uh--I worked for Keitz & Herndon Film Studios--[spelling] K-e-i-t-z and H-e-r-n-d-o-n.

Mr. BELIN. Have you had any other jobs since you've gotten out of college other than those?

Mr. COUCH. I worked a year for Camp Elhar, as executive director of the camp. It's a Christian camp here in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Is this for youngsters?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Boys and girls?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. And when did that employment take place?

Mr. COUCH. Uh--I believe it was September 1961--and ended in September 1962. I started working for WFAA in March of 1962. And I've been there 2 years.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, part of the time while you were working with this camp, you were also part time with WFAA-TV?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. And then when you started to work on your Masters in Theology, you stopped working?

Mr. COUCH. No. I started work on my Masters when I came back from college----

Mr. BELIN. Oh, I see.

Mr. COUCH. In January of 1960. It's a 4-year course.

Mr. BELIN. I see.

Mr. Couch, I want to take you back to November 22, 1963, and ask you whether or not you were employed by WFAA-TV at that time?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; I was.

Mr. BELIN. In connection with your employment, what is the fact as to whether or not you had anything to do with the coverage of the visit of President Kennedy to Dallas?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Could you just state what your duties were and what you did that day?

Mr. COUCH. I was assigned to cover the arrival of the President at the airport and to ride in the motorcade through town and, then, to ride with the motorcade of the President back to the airport when he left.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when you were assigned, were you assigned as a reporter, as a photographer, or in what capacity?

Mr. COUCH. As a photographer.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be moving picture film or still shots, or both?

Mr. COUCH. Moving only.

Mr. BELIN. Moving picture film only?

Mr. COUCH. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you at Love Field in Dallas when the President arrived?

Mr. COUCH. That's right; uh-huh.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take moving pictures of him there?

Mr. COUCH. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Then you got in the motorcade?

Mr. COUCH. Right; uh-huh.

Mr. BELIN. And the motorcade proceeded, first, from Love Field toward downtown Dallas--is that correct?

Mr. COUCH. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the route you took through downtown Dallas?

Mr. COUCH. Uh--roughly. It was out through the airport parkway to Mockingbird Lane to Lemmon, down Lemmon to Turtle Creek, down Turtle Creek to--uh--I'm not sure of those streets. I think McKinney or Cedar Springs. I'm not sure.

Mr. BELIN. Well, if you aren't particularly sure--okay. What about when you got downtown to the center of Dallas? Do you remember what streets you went on?

Mr. COUCH. Yes. Well, we came in on Harwood and then turned right on Main at the City Hall.

Mr. BELIN. And then you took Main to where?

Mr. COUCH. Main down to--uh--Houston.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You were heading, now, west on Main down to Houston?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. About where in the motorcade was your car? Do you remember offhand?

Mr. COUCH. Uh-uh--roughly--and I'm not sure--the fifth or sixth car back from the lead car. I'm not sure which one.

Mr. BELIN. Now, do you remember, as you approached Houston Street on Main about how fast the motorcade was going?

Mr. COUCH. I would estimate--uh--20 miles an hour. The speed had picked up some. Everyone gave a sigh a relief that--uh--it was over; and one of the cameramen, I remember, his camera broke and another one was out of film. Everyone was relaxed. And--uh--of course, then we turned north on Houston, and it was there that we heard the first gunshot.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Before we get to the first gunshot--do you remember who was riding in the car with you?

Mr. COUCH. Uh--an best I can, it was Jimmy Darnell--Channel 5: uh--Bob Jackson--Times Herald; Jim Underwood--KRLD-TV; and the fellow--uh--Mr. Dillard--Tom Dillard--Dallas Morning News. And the driver of the car; I don't know his name.

Mr. BELIN. Were you sitting in the front or the back seat?

Mr. COUCH. Sitting in the back.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about your position as to the way you were sitting in the back?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; I was almost in the middle and sitting on the--it was a convertible--and sitting on the back of the back seat, with my feet on the seat.

Mr. BELIN. Your feet were on the seat--and you would be sitting on the top of the back seat?

Mr. COUCH. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. There were three of you in the back?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; three in the back.

Mr. BELIN. And were you in the middle or to the right or to the left?

Mr. COUCH. I was about in the middle.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, as you turned north on Houston, do you remember about how fast you were going?

Mr. COUCH. Well, I'd say still that--of course, allowing for the turn--that the pace of the motorcade was about the same. We were clipping along and, as I said, I do have films after we had turned the other corner, and you could still see that the motorcade was moving fairly fast.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any motorcycle policemen riding alongside the motorcade, that you remember?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; there were.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the names of any of those people?

Mr. COUCH. No; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Were they two-wheel or three-wheel motorcycles?

Mr. COUCH. Two-wheel.

Mr. BELIN. Was there one riding alongside of your car?

Mr. COUCH. Uh--he was. I remember distinctly one was on my right going down Main. They would jockey from time to time in different positions. As I recall, on Houston, I don't remember any beside us on Houston. As I say, they would fade back and forth. Sometimes they would be; sometimes they wouldn't.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, as you turned onto Houston, you said that you heard what you described as a----

Mr. COUCH. It sounded like a motorcycle backfire at first--the first time we heard it--the first shot.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about where your car was at the time you heard the first noise?

Mr. COUCH. I would say--uh--15 or 20 feet from the turn--from off of Main onto Houston.

Mr. BELIN. Fifteen or 20 feet from the turn?

Mr. COUCH. We had already completed the turn.

Mr. BELIN. After you had completed the turn, then 15 or 20 feet further on you heard the first shot--the first noise?

Mr. COUCH. Because, I remember I was talking and we were laughing and I was looking back to a fellow on my--that would be on my right--I don't know who it was--we were joking. We had just made the turn. And I heard the first shot.

Mr. BELIN. What happened--or what did anyone say?

Mr. COUCH. As I recall, nothing--there was no particular reaction; uh--nothing unusual. Maybe everybody sort of looked around a little, but didn't think much of it. And--uh--then, in a few seconds, I guess from 4-5 seconds later, or even less, we heard the second shot. And then we began to look--uh, not out of thinking necessarily it was a gunshot, but we began to look in front of us--in the motorcade in front of us. And, as I recall, I didn't have any particular fears or feelings at the second shot. By the third shot, I felt that it was a rifle. Almost sure it was. And, as I said, the shots or the noises were fairly close together they were fairly even in sound--and--uh, by then, one could recognize, or if he had heard a high-powered rifle, he would feel that it was a high-powered rifle. You would get that impression.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where your vehicle was by the time you heard the third shot?

Mr. COUCH. I'd say we were about 50 feet from making--or maybe 60 feet--from making the left-hand turn onto Elm.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear more than three shots?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. Had you heard any noises, what you'd describe like a motorcycle backfiring or firecrackers, prior to the time that you made your turn north onto Houston?

Mr. COUCH. Well, way uptown on Main Street, a motorcycle did backfire right beside us--and we all jumped and had a good laugh over it. And the three shots sounded, at first--the first impression was that this was another motorcycle backfiring.

Mr. BELIN. Now, between the first and the second shots, is there anything else you remember doing or you remember hearing or seeing that you haven't related here at this time?

Mr. COUCH. Nothing unusual between the shots. Uh--as I say, the first shot, I had no particular impression; but the second shot, I remember turning--several of us turning--and looking ahead of us. It was unusual for a motorcycle to backfire that close together, it seemed like. And after the third shot, Bob Jackson, who was, as I recall, on my right, yelled something like, "Look up in the window! There's the rifle!"

And I remember glancing up to a window on the far right, which at the time impressed me as the sixth or seventh floor, and seeing about a foot of a rifle being--the barrel brought into the window.

I saw no one in that window--just a quick 1-second glance at the barrel.

Mr. BELIN. In what building was that?

Mr. COUCH. This was the Texas Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. At the corner of Houston and Elm in Dallas?

Mr. COUCH. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. You said it was the sixth or the seventh floor. Do you know how many floors there are in that building--or did you know at that time?

Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't know at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Did it look like to you he was on the top floor or next to the top floor or the second to the top floor--or----