Chapter XVIII: Part 18

Mr. HOLLAND. "I am signal supervisor for the Union Terminal, and I was inspecting signal and switches and stopped to watch the parade. I was standing on the top of the triple underpass and the President's car was coming down Elm Street, and when they got just about to the arcade, I heard what I thought for a moment was a firecracker and he slumped over and I looked over toward the arcade and trees and saw a puff of smoke come from the trees and I heard three more shots after the first shot but that was the only puff of smoke I saw. I immediately ran around to where I could see behind the arcade and did not see anyone running from there. But the puff of smoke I saw definitely came from behind the arcade to the trees. After the first shot the President slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and tried to get over in the back seat to him and then the second shot rang out. After the first shot the Secret Service man raised up in the seat with a machine gun and then dropped back down in the seat. And they immediately sped off. Everything is spinning in my head and if I remember anything else later I will come back and tell Bill."

That is Mr. Decker. And--brother it was, too.

Mr. STERN. I'm sure it was.

Mr. HOLLAND. Stand there and watch two or three men get killed----

Mr. STERN. Now, that statement makes clear that you heard four shots, thought you heard four shots at that time?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.

Mr. STERN. All right.

Mr. HOLLAND. But, two of them was rather close together, though.

Mr. STERN. So close do you think that might have been one shot?

Mr. HOLLAND. No, it was four.

Mr. STERN. You are clear there were four?

Mr. HOLLAND. No; it was different sounds, different reports.

Mr. STERN. All right. Mr. Morrison, are there any questions you would like to ask Mr. Holland to clarify any points that we discussed?

Mr. MORRISON. Mr. Holland, is there anything you might add to this?

Mr. HOLLAND. Well, the only thing that I remember now that I didn't then, I remember about the third car down from this fence, there was a station wagon backed up toward the fence, about the third car down, and a spot. I'd say 3 foot by 2 foot, looked to me like somebody had been standing there for a long period. I guess if you could count them about a hundred foottracks in that little spot, and also mud up on the bumper of that station wagon.

Mr. STERN. This was a car back--parked behind the picket fence? Well, why don't you put the Number "5" approximately where that car would have been.

Mr. HOLLAND. If we could call this the arcade [indicating]----

Mr. STERN. All right.

Mr. HOLLAND. And one, two, three, I think it would have been just about here [indicating].

Mr. STERN. All right.

Mr. MORRISON. That is Elm Street. It would be behind the fence, wouldn't it?

Mr. HOLLAND. Well, I have got the fence running up here, and this car would be back in there [indicating]. This is the trees out here, which would--and that is approximately the same location as--the car and the trees that I saw the smoke would probably be the same location.

Mr. STERN. All right. And this was a station wagon?

Mr. HOLLAND. Now, the reason I didn't think so much about that at the time, was because there was so many people out there, and there was law enforcement officers and I thought, well, if there is anything to that they would pick that up, or notice it, but it looks like someone had been standing there for a long time, because it was muddy.

Mr. STERN. Tracks you saw in the mud?

Mr. HOLLAND. It was muddy, and you could have if you could have counted them, I imagine it would have been a hundred tracks just in that one location. It was just----

Mr. STERN. And then you saw some mud on the bumper?

Mr. HOLLAND. Mud on the bumper in two spots.

Mr. STERN. As if someone had cleaned his foot, or----

Mr. HOLLAND. Well, as if someone had cleaned their foot, or stood up on the bumper to see over the fence.

Mr. STERN. I see.

Mr. HOLLAND. Because, you couldn't very well see over it standing down in the mud, or standing on the ground, and to get a better view you could----

Mr. STERN. Was there anything else you noticed about this station wagon?

Mr. HOLLAND. No.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall the----

Mr. HOLLAND. They searched all the cars in that location.

Mr. STERN. Did this occur to you----

Mr. HOLLAND. It occurred to me immediately when I saw it there; yes.

Mr. STERN. And you thought about it later in the day?

Mr. HOLLAND. I thought about it that night.

Mr. STERN. I see.

Mr. HOLLAND. In fact, I went to bed--it was about a week there I couldn't sleep, much, brother, and I thought about it that night, and I have thought about it a lot of times since then.

Mr. STERN. Did you ever go back to look at that site or look at the station wagon?

Mr. HOLLAND. No; I didn't go back that afternoon, because I spent the rest of the day in the county jail office over there, but a number of your Federal Agents went out there then and Secret Service men. It was just a beehive.

Mr. STERN. Yes.

Mr. HOLLAND. In a matter of a few minutes.

Mr. STERN. Did you tell any of the Federal officers, or any of the Dallas Police officers about it?

Mr. HOLLAND. I don't think I did.

Mr. STERN. This is really the first time----

Mr. HOLLAND. This is the first time that I have discussed it, that I remember. Now, I might have told in our conversation. I don't remember that, but I don't think I did.

Mr. STERN. I am not aware of any other occasion in which you did.

Mr. MORRISON. You thought the officers there would take care of that?

Mr. HOLLAND. I thought that the officers would take care of it because there were so many there, I thought they would take care of everything, and a layman didn't have any business up there, and I went on back to my office.

Mr. STERN. When you ran behind the picket fence after the shots were fired, did you come near the area where the station wagon was parked?

Mr. HOLLAND. Went up to behind the arcade as far as you could go.

Mr. STERN. So, you would have passed where this station wagon was?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.

Mr. STERN. Or, that area?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; immediately, but I turned around, see, and went to searching in there for empty shells, and three or four agents there then and that is when I walked back to the car there and noticed the tracks there in one little spot.

Mr. STERN. When you first came around, that was quite soon after the shots were fired?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.

Mr. STERN. And did you notice anything about this station wagon?

Mr. HOLLAND. I was in front of the cars, then I went in front of the cars.

Mr. STERN. In front of the cars----

Mr. HOLLAND. The cars they were parked pretty close to the fence, and I came up in front of the cars and got over to the fence and then walked back down looking around, just like the rest of them.

Mr. STERN. And that was later you came behind the station wagon?

Mr. HOLLAND. Oh, maybe 3 or 4 minutes after I got up there, and 3 or 4 minutes after I got up to the end of the fence.

Mr. STERN. This number of cars, this is an area in which cars are regularly parked?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.

Mr. STERN. A parking area for the School Book Depository?

Mr. HOLLAND. No; it is a parking area for the sheriff's department and people over to the courthouse. They park in there.

Mr. STERN. I see.

Mr. HOLLAND. Sheriff's department parks in there. District attorneys' cars park in there. It is railroad property, but they let them park in there and save that 25 cents. Don't put that down. Might get in trouble.

Now, do you want to know about the two policemen that were riding in that motorcade and one of them throwed the motorcycle down right in the middle of the street and run up towards that location with his gun in his hand.

Mr. STERN. Toward----

Mr. HOLLAND. The location that----

Mr. STERN. Where you saw the puff of smoke?

Mr. HOLLAND. Where I saw the puff of smoke. And another one tried to ride up the hill on his motorcycle and got about halfway up there and he run up the rest of the way on foot.

Mr. STERN. Go ahead. This is at the time of the----

Mr. HOLLAND. At the time of the----

Mr. STERN. That the shots were fired?

Mr. HOLLAND. The shots was fired.

Mr. STERN. Two motorcycle policemen who were in the motorcade?

Mr. HOLLAND. In the motorcade, and one of them throwed his motorcycle down right in the middle of the street and ran up the incline with his pistol in his hand, and the other motorcycle policeman jumped over the curb with his motorcycle and tried to ride up the hill on his motorcycle, and he--tipped over with him up there, and he ran up there the rest of the way with his----

Mr. STERN. Did you see anything further involving those two?

Mr. HOLLAND. No; I ran around, I was going around the corner of the fence.

Mr. STERN. When they were coming up the incline?

Mr. HOLLAND. When that happened.

Mr. STERN. But, nothing further came of that, that you observed?

Mr. HOLLAND. No.

Mr. STERN. Did you talk to them?

Mr. HOLLAND. No.

Mr. STERN. Anything else occur to you?

Mr. HOLLAND. No; that is about all of it. If I have been of any help, I am tickled.

Mr. STERN. You certainly have. I appreciate very much your coming here today. Our reporter, Mr. Holland, will transcribe your testimony, and you then have the opportunity of reviewing it and signing it, or if you prefer you can waive your signature and she will send it directly to the Commission. Either one, it is entirely up to you, whichever you prefer.

Mr. MORRISON. I prefer that he read it and sign it.

Mr. STERN. Fine. Then the reporter will get in touch with you as soon as his transcript is ready to read.

Mr. MORRISON. I would like to say--now, you will cooperate with the authorities in any way?

Mr. HOLLAND. I surely will.

Mr. MORRISON. To clear this up?

Mr. HOLLAND. I sure will.

Mr. MORRISON. And you and have--you and I have been close personal friends for over 10 years, haven't we?

Mr. HOLLAND. That's right.

Mr. MORRISON. And you wanted me to come down here because you thought you would be nervous, and if I were with you maybe you would be less nervous?

Mr. HOLLAND. That's correct, because I was real nervous when I went over to that sheriff's office that afternoon.

Mr. MORRISON. I believe that is all.

Mr. STERN. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF J. W. FOSTER

The testimony of J. W. Foster was taken at 1:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets. Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FOSTER. I do.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Foster, we have requested Chief Curry to have you come in and testify in this matter before the Commission. This Commission was established to investigate the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And my name is Joseph A. Ball. I am a staff officer, staff counsel with the Commission. I would like to ask you some questions about this matter. You are willing to testify, aren't you?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your address?

Mr. FOSTER. 309 Cooper Street. I just moved.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. FOSTER. I am a police officer.

Mr. BALL. Dallas Police Department?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Patrolman?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been on the police department?

Mr. FOSTER. Nine years.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born and raised?

Mr. FOSTER. In Hill County, town of Hillsboro.

Mr. BALL. What was your education?

Mr. FOSTER. Well----

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. FOSTER. Hillsboro.

Mr. BALL. How far through school?

Mr. FOSTER. Ninth grade.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. FOSTER. Service.

Mr. BALL. What branch? In the Army or Navy----

Mr. FOSTER. Army.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. FOSTER. Carpenter, worked for about 9 years.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. FOSTER. Come to work here.

Mr. BALL. On the police department?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work were you doing in November of 1963, for the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. FOSTER. I was working in the traffic division, investigation of accidents.

Mr. BALL. Investigation of accidents?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a special assignment on November 22?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. 1963. And what was that?

Mr. FOSTER. That was assigned to the triple overpass to keep all unauthorized personnel off of it.

Mr. BALL. That was the overpass, the railroad overpass?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you--the overpass runs in a north-south direction?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you call it the triple overpass, why?

Mr. FOSTER. Three streets coming through there.

Mr. BALL. What are they?

Mr. FOSTER. Commerce, Main, and Elm.

Mr. BALL. I have a map that I will--just a moment. I will get it.

Mr. FOSTER. All right.

(Off the record.)

Mr. BALL. Tell me where you were standing on the triple overpass about the time that the President's motorcade came into sight?

Mr. FOSTER. I was standing approximately along the--I believe the south curb of Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. Were you on the overpass?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir; at the east--be the east side of the overpass.

Mr. BALL. On the east side of the overpass?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then was there another officer assigned to that same position?

Mr. FOSTER. He was assigned to the overpass with me; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. FOSTER. J. C. White.

Mr. BALL. Where was he?

Mr. FOSTER. He was on the west side of the overpass.

Mr. BALL. You were on the east side?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He was on the west side?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BALL. Let's go back on the record. Now, we have a map here which we will mark as Exhibit A for your deposition.

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And it shows the railroad overpass running in a north and south direction, is that right?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Over that pass come trains into the yard, is that right?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that yard is to the north and west of the Texas Book Depository Building?

Mr. FOSTER. Well, that whole thing, they have yards all over up there.

Mr. BALL. In what general direction from the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. FOSTER. They have yards to the north, and some to the south of it down below the Terminal.

Mr. BALL. There are yards south?

Mr. FOSTER. They have yards here [indicating].

Mr. BALL. That is north and west?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And also south?

Mr. FOSTER. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you see the President's motorcade come into sight?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you see it? Where was it when you saw it?

Mr. FOSTER. When I first saw it it was coming off of Main Street onto Houston.

Mr. BALL. And did you keep it in sight?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir; it was in sight most of the time.

Mr. BALL. Now, where were you standing?

Mr. FOSTER. Standing along the east curb of--east side of the overpass over Elm Street there. About the south curb.

Mr. BALL. Over, above the south curb of Elm?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Will you put a mark on there? Mark an "X" where you were standing and write your initials right next to that "X".

J.--what are the initials?

Mr. FOSTER. J. W.

Mr. BALL. J. W. F. That marks where you were standing.

Mr. FOSTER. Approximately; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you keep the President's motorcade in sight after it turned?

Mr. FOSTER. Other than watching the men that were standing on the overpass there with me.

Mr. BALL. Now, you had instructions to keep all unauthorized personnel off of that overpass?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you do that?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you permit some people to be there?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who?

Mr. FOSTER. People that were working for the railroad there.

Mr. BALL. Were there many people?

Mr. FOSTER. About 10 or 11.

Mr. BALL. Where were they standing?

Mr. FOSTER. They were standing along the east banister.

Mr. BALL. The east banister?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir; in front of me.

Mr. BALL. In front of you. Will you make a mark there and show the general area where they were standing?

Mr. FOSTER. They were standing along this area here [indicating].

Mr. BALL. You have marked a series of X's to show where about 10 people were standing?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you looking toward them?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you have another officer with you there on that duty that day?

Mr. FOSTER. Not on that side. He was on the west side.

Mr. BALL. He was on the west side?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was his name?

Mr. FOSTER. J. C. White.

Mr. BALL. Do you know exactly where he was when you were at the position you have indicated?

Mr. FOSTER. No; I don't. The only thing I know, he was supposed to be on the west side of the banister.

Mr. BALL. You were looking to the east?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, tell me what you saw happen after the President's car passed--turned onto Elm from Houston.

Mr. FOSTER. After he came onto Elm I was watching the men up on the track more than I was him. Then I heard a loud noise, sound like a large firecracker. Kind of dumbfounded at first, and then heard the second one. I moved to the banister of the overpass to see what was happening. Then the third explosion, and they were beginning to move around. I ran after I saw what was happening.

Mr. BALL. What did you see was happening?

Mr. FOSTER. Saw the President slump over in the car, and his head looked just like it blew up.

Mr. BALL. You saw that, did you?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do then?

Mr. FOSTER. Well, at that time I broke and ran around to my right--to the left--around to the bookstore.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you have any opinion at that time as to the source of the sounds, the direction of the sounds?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What?

Mr. FOSTER. It came from back in toward the corner of Elm and Houston Streets.

Mr. BALL. That was your impression at that time?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was any shot fired from the overpass?

Mr. FOSTER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone with a weapon there?

Mr. FOSTER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or did you hear any sound that appeared to come from the overpass?

Mr. FOSTER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go from there?

Mr. FOSTER. Went on around the back side of the bookstore.

Mr. BALL. Immediately?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody coming out of that side of the bookstore?

Mr. FOSTER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Backside? What do you mean by that?

Mr. FOSTER. Well, I guess you would say the northwest side of it.

Mr. BALL. Were there any people in the railroad yards around the bookstore at that time?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. There was a pretty good crowd beginning to gather back in that area.

Mr. BALL. At that time?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Had you seen anybody over at the railroad yard north and west of the bookstore before you heard the shots fired?

Mr. FOSTER. No; other than people that had come up there and I sent them back down the roadway.

Mr. BALL. I see. People had attempted to get on the overpass there?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you had sent them away?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you got over to the School Book Depository Building, what did you do?

Mr. FOSTER. I was standing around in back there to see that no one came out, and the sergeant came and got me and we were going to check the--all the railroad cars down there.

Mr. BALL. Who was that sergeant?

Mr. FOSTER. Sergeant came up there.

Mr. BALL. Did you search the railroad cars?

Mr. FOSTER. No; he sent me back down to the inspector. Told me to report back to Inspector Sawyer.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. FOSTER. At the front of the Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Sawyer there?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell your sergeant or Sawyer, either one where you thought the shots came from?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you then tell them?

Mr. FOSTER. Told them it came from that vicinity up around Elm and Houston.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell the sergeant that first, or did you tell that to Sawyer?

Mr. FOSTER. Told that to Inspector Sawyer.

Mr. BALL. You told that to Sawyer?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell that to the sergeant?

Mr. FOSTER. I don't know whether I told the sergeant that or not.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. FOSTER. I moved to--down the roadway there, down to see if I could find where any of the shots hit.

Mr. BALL. Find anything?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. Found where one shot had hit the turf there at the location.

Mr. BALL. Hit the turf?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any marks on the street in any place?

Mr. FOSTER. No, a manhole cover. It was hit. They caught the manhole cover right at the corner and----

Mr. BALL. You saw a mark on a manhole cover did you?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I show you a picture here of a concrete slab, or manhole cover. Do you recognize that picture?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Does the picture show--tell me what it shows there.

Mr. FOSTER. This looks like the corner here where it penetrated the turf right here [indicating].

Mr. BALL. See any mark on the manhole cover?

Mr. FOSTER. No, sir; I don't. Not on the--well, it is on the turf, on the concrete, right in the corner.

Mr. BALL. Can you put an arrow showing the approximate place you saw that?

Mr. FOSTER. Should have been approximately along here [indicating].

Mr. BALL. Make it deep enough to make a mark. The arrow marks the position that you believe you saw a mark on the pavement?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. It was not on the manhole cover?

Mr. FOSTER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Went into the turf?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you recover any bullet?

Mr. FOSTER. No, sir. It ricocheted on out.

Mr. BALL. Did you have the crime lab make a picture of that spot?

Mr. FOSTER. I called them to the location.

Mr. BALL. And told them to make a picture?

Mr. FOSTER. No, I didn't tell them. Called them to the spot and let them take it. Can I see the picture?

Mr. BALL. Yes, sir. Is this the picture?

Mr. FOSTER. That resembles the picture.

Mr. BALL. I offer this as "B," then. Mark it as "B" so that we have "A" and "B" now.

Officer, this will be written up and submitted to you for your signature and you can read it over and change it any way you wish, or you may waive your signature at this time, which do you prefer?

Mr. FOSTER. Well, it doesn't matter.

Mr. BALL. Suit yourself. You make the choice.

Mr. FOSTER. I would just as soon go ahead and sign it.

Mr. BALL. All right. We will notify you and you can get in here and sign it.

Mr. FOSTER. All right.

Mr. BALL. Thank you. One moment, please.

Who gave you your assignment, Mr. Foster?

Mr. FOSTER. Sergeant Harkness.

Mr. BALL. You did permit some railroad employees to remain on the overpass?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How did you determine they were railroad employees?

Mr. FOSTER. By identification they had with them. Identification they had and the other men that was with them verifying that they were employees.

Mr. BALL. Okay.

TESTIMONY OF J. C. WHITE

The testimony of J. C. White was taken at 11:45 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. All right, will you stand up and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WHITE. I do.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please.

Mr. WHITE. J. C. White.

Mr. BALL. What is your residence?

Mr. WHITE. 2303 Klondite.

Mr. BALL. And your occupation?

Mr. WHITE. Policeman.

Mr. BALL. Did you receive a letter from the Commission?

Mr. WHITE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. For a request to----

Mr. WHITE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were asked to come here by your----

Mr. WHITE. Captain.

Mr. BALL. Which captain?

Mr. WHITE. Lawrence.

Mr. BALL. Now, the Commission was established to investigate the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy. We want to ask you some questions about information that you might have that might aid us in that investigation.

I am a Staff officer of the Commission named Ball. Joseph A. Ball. I am authorized to administer the oath to you, to make this inquiry. During the course of our investigation in Dallas we discovered that you and the man that you were working with that day, Mr. J. W. Foster, knew of some facts that might aid us in the investigation. We asked Chief Curry if we could have you come up here and testify, and I guess that is the reason you are here.

You are willing to testify, are you not?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Tell us whatever you know about it.

Mr. WHITE. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Well, I can ask you.

Mr. WHITE. Okay.

Mr. BALL. I will ask you questions. Where were you born?

Mr. WHITE. Van Alstyne, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. WHITE. Van Alystyne, Tex.

Mr. BALL. How far through school?

Mr. WHITE. Ninth grade there.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. WHITE. I went into the Army.

Mr. BALL. And how long were you in the Army?

Mr. WHITE. About 3 years.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do?

Mr. WHITE. Went to driving a city bus.

Mr. BALL. How long did you drive a city bus?

Mr. WHITE. 6 years.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. WHITE. Joined the Police Department.

Mr. BALL. How long ago?

Mr. WHITE. 1956.

Mr. BALL. And what are you now?

Mr. WHITE. Accident investigator.

Mr. BALL. And your rank is a patrolman?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, on November 22, 1963, did you have an assignment?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. WHITE. On the triple underpass.

Mr. BALL. And were you there with someone?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who?

Mr. WHITE. J. W. Foster.

Mr. BALL. Where were you?

Mr. WHITE. Standing on the west side of the overpass.

Mr. BALL. On the west side of the overpass?

Mr. WHITE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where were you with reference to Elm, Main or Commerce as they go underneath the overpass?

Mr. WHITE. Approximately at the north curb of Main Street.

Mr. BALL. Approximately the north curb of Main on the corner of the north curb of Main? That would be----

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On the west side of the overpass?

Mr. WHITE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I'm going to get another copy of this map. Let me see. I can use this. Mark this as Exhibit A to your deposition. Now, a diagram that was drawn by a patrolman, Joe Murphy, and he has made some marks and other witnesses have, but don't pay any attention to that. I want you to look at this drawing and take a pen and mark your position on the railroad overpass in a circle, and put your initials beside it.

You have made an "X".

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you have initialed J. C. White, is that right?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Over the--what would be the west curb of Main?

Mr. WHITE. North curb of Main.

Mr. BALL. The north curb?

Mr. WHITE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. North curb of Main?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And west side of the overpass?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is there a rail there?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How many people were on that overpass that day?

Mr. WHITE. On the same side I was on?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. WHITE. None.

Mr. BALL. None? Any people attempt to come up on the overpass around noon?

Mr. WHITE. Not on my side.

Mr. BALL. They did not?

Mr. WHITE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Had you seen your partner send any people away from the overpass?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You had certain instructions, didn't you?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What were they?

Mr. WHITE. Not to let any unauthorized personnel on top of the overpass.

Mr. BALL. Now, you did permit some people to stay on the overpass, didn't you?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who were they?

Mr. WHITE. Workers of the railroad company.

Mr. BALL. Were they people you knew?

Mr. WHITE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, how did you know they were workers with the railroad company?

Mr. WHITE. Majority of them were there when we got there, working on the rails.

Mr. BALL. And you let them stay there?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car come into sight?

Mr. WHITE. No, sir; first time I saw it it has passed, passed under the triple underpass.

Mr. BALL. You were too far away to see it, were you?

Mr. WHITE. There was a freight train traveling. There was a train passing between the location I was standing and the area from which the procession was traveling, and--a big long freight train, and I did not see it.

Mr. BALL. You didn't see the procession?

Mr. WHITE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Before the train went by, did you see some railroad personnel over on the--would it be the----

Mr. WHITE. East side?

Mr. BALL. East side of the overpass?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How many people?

Mr. WHITE. About 10, approximately. I didn't count them.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear any shots?

Mr. WHITE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Didn't?

Mr. WHITE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. First time you saw the President's car it was going underneath?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. WHITE. As soon as the train passed I went over and on the northwest side of the Depository Building. On the northwest side of the book store up there with the rest of the officers and after about 30 minutes they told me to go out and work traffic at Main and Houston, and I stood out there and worked traffic.

Mr. BALL. All right, now, you heard no sound of no rifle fire or anything?

Mr. WHITE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Freight train was going through at the time?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Making noise?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir; noisy train.

Mr. BALL. Mr. White, Mr. Foster was on the east side of the overpass?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. This deposition will be written up and submitted to you for your signature if you wish to sign it, or you can waive your signature. Which do you wish to do?

Mr. WHITE. You said a while ago to him it would be written up like this? Is that correct?

Mr. BALL. No, it will be written up in the form of a deposition.

Mr. WHITE. I will waive.

Mr. BALL. You waive it. Okay. Fine.

TESTIMONY OF JOE E. MURPHY

The testimony of Joe E. Murphy was taken at 9:50 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MURPHY. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name and address for the record?

Mr. MURPHY. Joe E. Murphy, 2509 Winthrop; (spelling) W-i-n-t-h-r-o-p, Drive.

Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation?

Mr. MURPHY. Police officer.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Department?

Mr. MURPHY. I am in my 21st year.

Mr. BALL. With the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. MURPHY. Dallas.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. MURPHY. High school--St. Joseph High School here in Dallas.

Mr. BALL. You went all through school here in Dallas, did you?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes, sir; that's right.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after you got out of high school?

Mr. MURPHY. Well, I played pro baseball for about 2 years, Class D--West Texas and New Mexico League. After that I went to work for the Humble Oil and Refining Co. in Baytown. I was down there about 2 years and came back to Dallas and then I went to work on the police force.

Mr. BALL. And you have been there ever since?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You are a patrolman, are you?

Mr. MURPHY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Do you have a three-wheeler?

Mr. MURPHY. A three-wheeler--yes.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, did they assign you to some post?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes, I was assigned to the overpass--the Stemmons Freeway overpass northbound at Elm Street--over Elm.

Mr. BALL. What instructions did you have?

Mr. MURPHY. It was to keep anyone and everyone off of the overpass and to keep traffic moving until the motorcade arrived.

Mr. BALL. Now, you have a map here which you have drawn for us to show your position, is that right? (Reporter marked instrument--Murphy Exhibit A, for identification.)

Mr. MURPHY. Yes; that's right.

Mr. BALL. And you have drawn a position there as to where you were standing, is that right?

Mr. MURPHY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. And where you parked your three-wheeler?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. All right, mark the place where you were standing as Position 1, using an "X".

Mr. MURPHY. All right. (Witness Murphy marked the diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. And your three-wheeler was beside you?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes; right on the shoulder.

Mr. BALL. Were there any other officers on that overpass?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes; there were two more about--oh, a 100 feet south of me--to slow traffic or to stop traffic whenever the motorcade entered the Stemmons Freeway north entrance.

Mr. BALL. Now where were they located--and, did they as the motorcade came down Elm Street, did they go into the highway and stop traffic?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes; they did.

Mr. BALL. Will you put their positions on the Stemmons Freeway overpass at the time the motorcade came west on Elm, and mark it (2) and (3).

Mr. MURPHY. (Marked diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of those officers that were (2) and (3)?

Mr. MURPHY. I can't recall. I know them but I can't recall who they were.

Mr. BALL. Were they three-wheeler officers too, do they drive three-wheelers?

Mr. MURPHY. I believe both of them three-wheelers.

Mr. BALL. And as the motorcade came west on Elm, did they stop traffic on Stemmons Freeway?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes, their main job was to slow it and let the officers farther down the freeway--they would stop it, but traffic approaches pretty fast and they were to slow traffic and let the officers then stop it. They did--they--they stepped into and were slowing the traffic as the motorcade came under that railroad overpass.

Mr. BALL. Did they ever stop traffic completely?

Mr. MURPHY. Well, it stopped--it stopped itself back down when all the excitement--someone down there--they blocked the whole street and then it backed up, is what it did--backed up to our position.

Mr. BALL. On Stemmons Freeway?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now Position (1) is where you were standing?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were there any people standing on the overpass over Elm, on the Stemmons Freeway overpass over Elm, as the motorcade came down?

Mr. MURPHY. No; there was no one standing there prior to the arrival of the motorcade or after the motorcade arrived.

Mr. BALL. The only one standing there was you?

Mr. MURPHY. It was me.

Mr. BALL. Now, let's go to the railroad overpass, and first of all, as you turned west on Elm from Houston, what is the first overpass that you encounter?

Mr. MURPHY. There is a railroad overpass--all of the trains entering and leaving the Union Station cross over that overpass.

Mr. BALL. Were there any officers on that overpass?

Mr. MURPHY. There were two.

Mr. BALL. Can you mark their positions, approximately, as you saw them before the motorcade arrived?

Mr. MURPHY. As best I could see--one was on each side--one here and one over on this side.

Mr. BALL. All right, mark the position of the officer on the west side as Position (4), and the one on the east side as Position (5).

(The Witness Murphy marked the diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.) Mr. BALL. Were these uniformed officers?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes, they were.

Mr. BALL. Do you know their names?

Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Did they have three-wheelers?

Mr. MURPHY. No; I couldn't say.

Mr. BALL. Now, were there any other people besides the two officers on this railroad overpass?

Mr. MURPHY. There were about 8 or 10--from what I could see--about 8 or 10 men dressed in the overalls and they appeared to be railroad employees.

Mr. BALL. Can you mark in their positions, approximately?

Mr. MURPHY. Well, they were in a group right in the center of Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. They were all together?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes; it appeared that they were in a group (Witness Murphy drew circle indicating presence of persons heretofore mentioned as requested by Counsel Ball).

Mr. BALL. You have drawn a circle there?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And mark that (6).

(Witness Murphy marked the diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. And in that circle there were about how many?

Mr. MURPHY. 8 to 10 persons.

Mr. BALL. There were 8 to 10 persons approximately, dressed in overalls?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any other people on the railroad overpass?

Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Could you see the motorcade on Houston from your position (1)?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes; I could.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car turn the corner of Main and Houston?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. That was in your view, was it?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes; it was.

Mr. BALL. Was the corner of Houston and Elm within your view?

Mr. MURPHY. Just a portion of it--you lose sight of it there for just a few seconds, as it makes the turn. Well, you lose sight of it. There is some kind of a--on that part there is a concrete, oh, I don't know what you would call it--kind of a framework--it appears to be.

Mr. BALL. In other words, there is an obstruction to your view?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. From where you were standing at Position (1)?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And the corner of the intersection of Houston and Elm?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were you able to see the President's car after it had turned west on Elm from Houston?

Mr. MURPHY. Well, again there, you just get a very short view of it before it goes out of sight then, going down that hill.

Mr. BALL. You heard shots, did you?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. Now, from the time you saw the President's car turn north on Houston from Main and until you heard the shots, what direction were you looking?

Mr. MURPHY. I was looking in an easterly direction.

Mr. BALL. Toward what?

Mr. MURPHY. Toward the motorcade--towards the President's car.

Mr. BALL. Did you keep the motorcade in sight at all times?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anything unusual occur in this group of railroad men where you have marked Position (6)?

Mr. MURPHY. No, I didn't--I did not.

Mr. BALL. Anybody armed there?

Mr. MURPHY. No, not that I could tell.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me what direction the policemen were looking who were at Position (4) and (5)?

Mr. MURPHY. They appeared to be looking in an easterly direction also.

Mr. BALL. The direction of the motorcade?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And did you see other individuals on that railroad overpass except the ones you have described?

Mr. MURPHY. No, just that group that I have described.

Mr. BALL. Now, you say you heard something--heard shots?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Describe to me your best recollection as to what you heard?

Mr. MURPHY. Well, I heard--I knew they were shots as soon as I heard them, but I thought at first it was--it sounded like a shotgun, and then I got the three shots and there were so many echoes and everything--then I did determine it sounded more like a rifle. I do quite a bit of hunting and I determined it sounded more like a rifle.

Mr. BALL. Those shots came from what direction?

Mr. MURPHY. Well, just from the direction I was looking--that's all I could tell. They came from an easterly direction, from where I was standing.

Mr. BALL. And were there echoes?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes, quite a few.

Mr. BALL. Did the men who were on the overpass at Position (5) do anything?

Mr. MURPHY. I don't recall--on that overpass--right after the shots, I did see then a group of people running up the side of this embankment on Elm and running. That would be here--right in here.

Mr. BALL. To the north of Elm?

Mr. MURPHY. To the north of Elm.

Mr. BALL. Would you put an arrow showing the direction they were running and mark that arrow as "7"--that's the direction you saw people running?

Mr. MURPHY. (Marked diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.) Yes, they were running up in this direction and then in behind this Book Depository. Oh, I could tell a lot of them were photographers, because I could see their cameras in their hands and then a number of other people, and then I did see some officers also running in that direction.

Mr. BALL. Did you see what the railroad men did who were at Position (6) on your map?

Mr. MURPHY. No; because right at that time that traffic began backing up on the freeway and I had turned in to try to keep them moving, but I found that I couldn't move them because it was blocked down below me, north of me and there was traffic just stacked up from where the other officers had it stopped there.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay at your position?

Mr. MURPHY. Well, I stayed until, I guess, it was about maybe 3 minutes after we heard the shots and then the broadcast came over the radio that there had been a shooting--the President had been shot--and then I went towards the Book Depository.

I got on my motor and went towards the Book Depository then--off of the freeway; and then was there up around the Book Depository for the next--I would say hour or hour and a half at least.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any witnesses?

Mr. MURPHY. I did pick up or talk to three or four people that said they had seen things and said they heard different things, and I took them to the sheriff's office across the street.

Mr. BALL. Do you knew what their names were?

Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I couldn't tell you. I turned them over to the investigators there with the sheriff's department--the district attorney's investigators, that's who they were.

Mr. BALL. You didn't make any notes of their names?

Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember now what any of them told you?

Mr. MURPHY. Well, one man in particular--he was standing on Elm--he was standing right about here where we have marked Position (7), and he claimed that he heard two shots above him and behind him, and one shot from up around the edge of this park, and another man claimed that he had been standing nearly in this same position--he was standing here on the street and he claimed that all the shots he heard came from overhead to his rear.

Mr. BALL. That would be near the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes, towards that Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. Did you go on the police radio and make any announcement or statement?

Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I didn't. It was so jammed, I didn't make any.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have this marked as Exhibit A to your deposition, which is illustrative of your testimony.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as Murphy Exhibit No. A, for identification.)

Mr. BALL. This will be written up and you can come in and look it over and sign it if you wish, or you can waive signature if you wish. It is your option--what would you like to do?

Mr. MURPHY. Well, if it's necessary, I will sign it. If it isn't, that's perfectly all right with me.

Mr. BALL. It isn't necessary.

Mr. MURPHY. Well, that's all right then.

Mr. BALL. Then, you will waive signature?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Thanks very much for coming in.

Mr. MURPHY. All right--certainly.

TESTIMONY OF ROGER D. CRAIG

The testimony of Roger D. Craig was taken at 2:35 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Roger Craig, do you want to stand and raise your right hand, please?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CRAIG. I do.

Mr. BELIN. You can be seated.

Mr. BELIN. Will you please state your full name?

Mr. CRAIG. Roger Dean Craig.

Mr. BELIN. That's (spelling) D-e-a-n?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And where do you live, Mr. Craig?

Mr. CRAIG. 6215 Overlook Drive, Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. And what's your occupation?

Mr. CRAIG. Deputy Sheriff.

Mr. BELIN. For the Dallas County Sheriff's Department?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Mr. Craig?

Mr. CRAIG. 27.

Mr. BELIN. Were you raised here in Texas?

Mr. CRAIG. No. I was born in Wisconsin, raised in Minnesota; and ran away from home when I was 12 and traveled all over the country.

Mr. BELIN. When you were 12?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any further schooling after you were 12--or not?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I took high school equivalent test in the Service in Japan when--uh--I was 19, and passed it and got my high school equivalent test--I mean, my diploma.

Mr. BELIN. Were you in the Service, then?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; uh-huh.

Mr. BELIN. In what branch?

Mr. CRAIG. I was in the Army.

Mr. BELIN. And how long were you in the Army?

Mr. CRAIG. 2 years.

Mr. BELIN. Before you joined the Army, what did you do? Were you living with anyone or were you on your own--or what?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I was married to a girl who lived out in Mesquite.

Mr. BELIN. Where?

Mr. CRAIG. Mesquite. It's a suburb of Dallas. It's not a town.

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.

Well, let me go back a little bit. You said you ran away from home when you were 12?

Mr. CRAIG. Uh-huh.

Mr. BELIN. And then where did you live?

Mr. CRAIG. I lived in South Dakota, worked on ranches up there, and then Wyoming, Nebraska, Colorado, New Mexico, Oklahoma.

Mr. BELIN. Well, with any relatives--or were they friends, or what?

Mr. CRAIG. No, no; just jobs. Just working here and there.

Mr. BELIN. And then you were married when you were----

Mr. CRAIG. 16.

Mr. BELIN. 16. And where?

Mr. CRAIG. Here in Texas.

Mr. BELIN. Here in Texas.

And then you enlisted in the Army when?

Mr. CRAIG. I volunteered for the draft when I was 17.

Mr. BELIN. And then you went in the Service?

Mr. CRAIG. Right.

Mr. BELIN. And served overseas?

Mr. CRAIG. Right.

Mr. BELIN. You were discharged when, then?

Mr. CRAIG. In--uh--October of 1955, I believe. In September or October of 1955, sir, is when I got out.

Mr. BELIN. Was it an honorable discharge?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you were in the service?

Mr. CRAIG. I served in the--uh--motor pool of the 92d Armored Field.

Mr. BELIN. And, after you got out of service, what did you do?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, jobs were kind of hard to get. I got a job as a dishwasher in a cafe, then cook. Then I did construction work for a while. And then I went to work for the Purex Corporation out on Storey Lane here in Dallas--2929 Storey Lane. Then I worked for them for about 3-1/2 years. Then, I came down to the sheriff's office.

Mr. BELIN. Now, what would your job have been there with the Purex Corp.?

Mr. CRAIG. Packager. I just packaged the Purex.

Mr. BELIN. And when did you go to work for the Dallas County Sheriff's Office?

Mr. CRAIG. In October--October the 9th of 1959.

Mr. BELIN. And you've been there ever since?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Are you married?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Family?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I have a girl and a boy and a stepboy.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Craig, I want to take you back to November 22d, 1963, and ask you whether or not you were working at the sheriff's office that day?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where is the sheriff's office located?

Mr. CRAIG. 505 Main Street.

Mr. BELIN. And where is 505 Main Street? Is it on the north or the south side of Main?

Mr. CRAIG. It's on the north side of Main at the corner of Houston.

Mr. BELIN. It runs from Houston east to Record Street there? Is that Record Street there?

Mr. CRAIG. No; the sheriff's office actually runs north from Main over to Elm Street. It covers that entire block.

Mr. BELIN. How far east does it go--or is it just a half-block east?

Mr. CRAIG. No; it's just a half block to--uh--well, it's divided, then the Records Building begins and goes on to Record Street.

Mr. BELIN. To Record Street.

Well, will you state what you did that day from about noon on--on November 22?

Mr. CRAIG. I stood out in front waiting for the President's motorcade. I went out there about--oh--5 minutes after 12, I guess; waited directly in front of the front door on the curb.

Mr. BELIN. That would be on the north curb of Main?