Chapter XIX: Part 19

Mr. CRAIG. Right.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what happened?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, we waited there for several minutes--and--uh--the motorcade finally came by.

Mr. BELIN. About how fast was the motorcade going when you saw it on Main Street?

Mr. CRAIG. Oh, just barely moving. I don't know. It was just barely moving. I couldn't judge any miles per hour.

Mr. BELIN. Well, 5, 10, 15, 20--what?

Mr. CRAIG. Probably going--probably 3 or 4 miles an hour.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

You saw the President's car?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You saw the motorcade reach the intersection of Main and Houston?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And then it turned?

Mr. CRAIG. Turned north on Houston.

Mr. BELIN. About how fast was it going as it turned north on Houston?

Mr. CRAIG. Oh, about the same. They--uh--they were going about the same speed as they made the corner.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any motorcycle policemen alongside the President's car?

Mr. CRAIG. Uh--not directly beside it. They was, I believe, on the front part of it and--uh--I believe behind it--just a little ways behind the back fender there was a motorcycle officer--one on each side of the car, as I remember.

Mr. BELIN. The ones on the front--where would the back wheels of the motorcycles have been with relation to the front wheels of the President's car?

Mr. CRAIG. Uh--just in front of the bumper because they came by and moved everybody back, you know, as the car approached us.

Mr. BELIN. And what about the motorcycles that were just behind the car? Where were the front wheels of those motorcycles with relation to the back wheels or the back bumper of the President's car?

Mr. CRAIG. About equal to the back bumper.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

You saw the President's car, then, turn north on Houston?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then, would you describe what you saw and heard and did?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, there were several other cars that came by and--uh----

Mr. BELIN. Did you watch those?

Mr. CRAIG. Some of them we watched. We watched Mr. Decker's car, of course, and a few of the others.

Mr. BELIN. Now, where was Mr. Decker's car?

Mr. CRAIG. I believe he came by just before the President's. I believe there were some dignitaries and things before that, and then we watched the President's and--uh--oh, and then about two or three cars after the President's car had passed. And then we were just standing there looking around, you know.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what happened?

Mr. CRAIG. Then I heard an explosion.

Mr. BELIN. When you heard the explosion, what did you do?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, the first--nothing. I wrestled with my mind. I knew it was a shot but--uh--I didn't want to believe it. But, a few seconds later, I heard another explosion and, this time, I knew it was a shot. And, as I began to run, I heard a third one. I was running toward Houston Street.

Mr. BELIN. How many explosions did you hear altogether?

Mr. CRAIG. Three.

Mr. BELIN. About how far were these noises apart?

Mr. CRAIG. The first one was--uh--about three seconds--2 or 3 seconds.

Mr. BELIN. Two or 3 seconds between the first and the second?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, it was quite a pause between there. It could have been a little longer.

Mr. BELIN. And what about between the second and third?

Mr. CRAIG. Not more than 2 seconds. It was--they were real rapid.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did you do?

Mr. CRAIG. I continued running across Houston Street, across the parkway, across Elm Street and, by this time, the motorcade had went on down Elm Street and I ran up to the railroad yard and--uh--started to look around when the people began to all travel over that way. So, I began moving people back out of the railroad yard.

Mr. BELIN. Where did the noises or shots sound to you like they came from?

Mr. CRAIG. It was hard to tell because--uh--they had an echo, you know. There was actually two explosions with each one. There was the--uh--the shot and then the echo from it. So, it was hard to tell.

Mr. BELIN. Did people tell you, as you ran over there, where they thought the shots came from?

Mr. CRAIG. No; as I reached the railroad yard, I talked to a girl getting her car that--uh--thought they came from the park area on the north side of Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say why she thought they came from there?

Mr. CRAIG. No; she was standing there and it sounded real loud at that particular point----

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. CRAIG. And she thought that's where they came from.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say they had seen anything--such as a rifle?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; later on. A few minutes after that--I had taken this girl to one of our criminal investigators--and was talking to some other people. I talked to a young couple and the boy said he saw two men on the--uh--sixth floor of the Book Depository Building over there; one of them had a rifle with the telescopic sight on it--but he thought they were Secret Service agents on guard and didn't report it. This was about--uh--oh, he said, 15 minutes before the motorcade ever arrived.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if that boy's name would have been Arnold Rowland--(spelling) R-o-w-l-a-n-d?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Does that sound like it?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; it sounds like the name--yes.

Mr. BELIN. His wife might be Barbara Rowland?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I believe her name was Barbara.

Mr. BELIN. Before you talked to this couple, did you do anything else or talk with anyone before you got back with them?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, I looked around, you know, for just--after I turned this girl over to Mr. Lewis--I began looking around and talking to people to see if they'd seen anything. And that's when I ran onto this man and his wife.

Mr. BELIN. And about what time do you think this was in relation to--from when you heard the shots to the time that you talked to this young couple?

Mr. CRAIG. I don't know. 10 minutes, maybe.

Mr. BELIN. You believe you talked to this young couple 10 minutes after the shots were fired?

Mr. CRAIG. It might have been 10 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then, what did you do? But, first of all, let me ask you this: Did this girl say that she saw any person with a rifle?

Mr. CRAIG. No; no.

Mr. BELIN. Now, the boy--where did he say that he saw the man with the rifle?

Mr. CRAIG. On the--uh--west end of the building on the sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Would that be--when you say "the west end,"--you mean, the west end of the south side, or the west side?

Mr. CRAIG. The west end of the south side.

Mr. BELIN. Of the sixth floor?

Mr. CRAIG. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Did he point out the window to you?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. From the west corner, where would this window have been? Right next to the west corner or two or three windows away, or what?

Mr. CRAIG. It was the--uh--the second window from the corner.

They were walking, you know, back and forth.

Mr. BELIN. He said that the two men were walking back and forth?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when you talk about second window, this building is located near you, is it not?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. This is the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Each window was sort of a pair of windows. And, on the south side, there probably are around seven pairs of windows.

Mr. CRAIG. Uh-huh.

Mr. BELIN. Would this have been--when you say "the second window from the west end"--by that do you mean it was the first pair of windows but the easternmost one of that pair, or do you mean it was in the second pair of windows from the west end--or don't you remember?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't remember that now.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Did he say anything else about what he had seen with this man with the rifle?

Mr. CRAIG. Yeah; he said he looked back a few minutes later and--uh--the other man was gone, and there was just one man--the man with the rifle.

Mr. BELIN. He said he looked back again and just the man with the rifle was there?

Mr. CRAIG. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say how long or when the last time was that he saw the man with the rifle?

Mr. CRAIG. I believe this second time he looked was the--uh--the last time he looked up there.

Mr. BELIN. And about how long was that before the shots were fired?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, he said he first seen him--saw the two men about 15 minutes before the motorcade arrived.

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. CRAIG. And he didn't say how long after that he looked back up there to just see the one man. He just said--uh--a few minutes later he looked back up.

Mr. BELIN. A few minutes later, he looked back up and he saw one man with the rifle?

Mr. CRAIG. Just the one man.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say what the one man was doing with the rifle?

Mr. CRAIG. He said he was holding it down to his side and just looking out the window.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say how far the man was from the window?

Mr. CRAIG. No; huh-uh.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say in what direction the man was looking out the window?

Mr. CRAIG. He was looking out in a southerly direction. Straight ahead. You know, straight out.

Mr. BELIN. When he said the man was holding it at his side, would this be--did he say it was, in military terminology, in any kind of a position to hold a weapon?

Mr. CRAIG. No; this I don't go into with him. I turned him over to Officer Lewis for interrogation.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be Deputy Sheriff Lemmy Lewis--(spelling) L-e-m-m-y L-e-w-i-s?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. He is a criminal investigator of the Dallas Sheriff's Office?

Mr. CRAIG. Right.

Mr. BELIN. And then you left this young couple?

Mr. CRAIG. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, about how long would this have been after the shooting that you left them with Deputy Sheriff Lewis?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, I didn't talk with them long. I talked with them--all the time that he told me what he saw and the time that I turned him over to officer Lewis, was probably--uh--3 minutes--3 or 4 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. CRAIG. Because--uh--I took him immediately up there to him when he told me what he'd seen.

Mr. BELIN. By this time, had anyone said the shots might have come from that School Book Depository Building--do you know?

Mr. CRAIG. No. I don't--uh--I don't recall that. I don't believe so.

Mr. BELIN. At this time, do you know whether or not they had sealed off in any way the entrance or the building--the School Book Depository Building--or not?

Mr. CRAIG. No; no. I didn't notice that.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't notice that?

Mr. CRAIG. No.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, about how many minutes after the assassination or shooting was it that you turned this couple over to Sheriff Lemmy Lewis?

Mr. CRAIG. Oh, it was about--well, I guess, 12 minutes--10, 12 minutes. Something like that.

Mr. BELIN. Ten or 12 minutes after the shooting?

Mr. CRAIG. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Then, what did you do?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, I looked around for a little bit, you know, just observing the people and things, and Officer Lewis turned them over to someone else, as I recall, and sent them to the sheriff's office--to Mr. Decker's office. And then it was either Lemmy Lewis or Buddy Walthers--(spelling) W-a-l-t-h-e-r-s, one of our other criminal investigators, said that one of the bullets had ricocheted off the south curb of Elm Street. So, Officer Lewis and I crossed--walked down the hill and crossed Elm Street to look for the place where the bullet might have hit.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say why he believed one of the bullets ricocheted off the south curb of Elm?

Mr. CRAIG. No; he just said that someone said that one of them had. So, we checked it.

Mr. BELIN. So, you searched the south curb of Elm?

Mr. CRAIG. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Did you find anything there to indicate the ricocheted bullet?

Mr. CRAIG. No; we didn't find anything at that time. Now, as we were searching, we had just got over across the street, when I heard someone whistle.

Mr. BELIN. Now, about how many minutes was this after the time that you had turned that young couple over to Lemmy Lewis that you heard this whistle?

Mr. CRAIG. Fourteen or 15 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. Fourteen or 15 minutes?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was this, you mean, after the shooting?

Mr. CRAIG. After the--from the time I heard the first shot.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

You heard someone whistle?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes. So I turned and--uh--saw a man start to run down the hill on the north side of Elm Street, running down toward Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. And, about where was he with relation to the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. CRAIG. Uh--directly across that little side street that runs in front of it. He was on the south side of it.

Mr. BELIN. And he was on the south side of what would be an extension of Elm Street, if Elm Street didn't curve down into the underpass?

Mr. CRAIG. Right; right.

Mr. BELIN. And where was he with relation to the west side of the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. CRAIG. Right by the--uh--well, actually, directly in line with the west corner--the southwest corner.

Mr. BELIN. He was directly in line with the southwest corner of the building?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And he was on the south curve of that street that runs right in front of the building there?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And he started to run toward Elm Street as it curves under the underpass?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; directly down the grassy portion of the park.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

And then what did you see happen?

Mr. CRAIG. I saw a light-colored station wagon, driving real slow, coming west on Elm Street from Houston. Uh--actually, it was nearly in line with him. And the driver was leaning to his right looking up the hill at the man running down.

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. CRAIG. And the station wagon stopped almost directly across from me. And--uh--the man continued down the hill and got in the station wagon. And I attempted to cross the street. I wanted to talk to both of them. But the--uh--traffic was so heavy I couldn't get across the street. And--uh--they were gone before I could----

Mr. BELIN. Where did the station wagon head?

Mr. CRAIG. West on Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. Under the triple underpass?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Could you describe the man that you saw running down toward the station wagon?

Mr. CRAIG. Oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown sandy hair--you know, it was like it'd been blown--you know, he'd been in the wind or something--it was all wild-looking; had on--uh--blue trousers----

Mr. BELIN. What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light?

Mr. CRAIG. No; medium, probably; I'd say medium.

And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about him?

Mr. CRAIG. No; nothing except that he looked like he was in an awful hurry.

Mr. BELIN. What about the man who was driving the car?

Mr. CRAIG. Now, he struck me, at first, as being a colored male. He was very dark complected, had real dark short hair, and was wearing a thin white-looking jacket--uh, it looked like the short windbreaker type, you know, because it was real thin and had the collar that came out over the shoulder (indicating with hands) like that--just a short jacket.

Mr. BELIN. You say that he first struck you that way. Do you now think that he was a Negro?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, I don't--I didn't get a real good look at him. But my first glance at him--I was more interested in the man coming down the hill--but my first glance at him, he struck me as a Negro.

Mr. BELIN. Is that what your opinion is today?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, I--I couldn't say, because I didn't get a good enough look at him.

Mr. BELIN. What kind and what color station wagon was it?

Mr. CRAIG. It was light colored--almost--uh--it looked white to me.

Mr. BELIN. What model or make was it?

Mr. CRAIG. I thought it was a Nash.

Mr. BELIN. Why would you think it was a Nash?

Mr. CRAIG. Because it had a built-in luggage rack on the top. And--uh--at the time, this was the only type car I could fit with that type luggage rack.

Mr. BELIN. A Nash Rambler--is that what you're referring to?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; with a rack on the the back portion of the car, you know.

Mr. BELIN. Did it have a Texas license plate, or not?

Mr. CRAIG. It had the same color. I couldn't see the--uh--name with the numbers on it. I could just barely make them out. They were at an angle where I couldn't make the numbers of the--uh--any of the writing on it. But--uh--I'm sure it was a Texas plate.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about this incident that you can recall?

Mr. CRAIG. No; not that----

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did you do?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, then--uh, I went back up to the front of the School Book Depository--rather, I went up to it and noticed that it was sealed off. There was an officer standing guard in it with a shotgun in the doorway; several officers crowded around in front of it.

Mr. BELIN. How long would this have been after the shots were fired?

Mr. CRAIG. I'd say nearly 20 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. CRAIG. And they were calling for hand lights to search the attic of the building. At that time--uh--they thought the man was still in the building. So, they were calling for hand lights to search the building.

So, I went back across to the sheriff's office and got some hand lights and took them back over to them.

Then, I went up on the sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you go up on the sixth floor?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, someone said that's where the shots came from. One of the city officers, if I'm not mistaken.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. CRAIG. So, we went to the sixth floor where--uh--some empty cartridges were found.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the empty cartridges when they were found?

Mr. CRAIG. I didn't see them when they were found. I saw them laying on the floor.

Mr. BELIN. About how soon after they were found did you see them laying on the floor?

Mr. CRAIG. Oh, a couple of minutes. I went right on over there. I was at the far north end of the building. The cartridges were on the southeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. Well, how did you know they had been found there? Did someone yell--or what?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; someone yelled across the room that "here's the shells."

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who that was?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I couldn't recognize the voice.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Then, what did you do?

Mr. CRAIG. I went over there and--uh--didn't get too close because the shells were laying on the ground and there was--uh--oh, a sack and a bunch of things laying over there. So, you know, not to bother the area, I just went back across.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you say, there was a sack laying there?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I believe it was laying on top of a box, if I'm not mistaken.

Mr. BELIN. How big a sack was that?

Mr. CRAIG. It was a paper bag (indicating with hands)--a small paper bag.

Mr. BELIN. Well, the kind of paper bag that you carry your lunch in?

Mr. CRAIG. Yeah,--uh-huh.

Mr. BELIN. Was it more than a foot long?

Mr. CRAIG. I don't know. I think it was rolled up kind of.

Mr. BELIN. You think it was rolled up?

Mr. CRAIG. Yeah; you know, kind of crushed up.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any long sack laying in the floor there that you remember seeing, or not?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't remember seeing any.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember seeing any thing there other than the shells?

Mr. CRAIG. No; not--uh--not anything that caught my eye.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you remember seeing the shells?

Mr. CRAIG. They were laying on the--uh--well, as you're facing the window----

Mr. BELIN. As you are facing the window and you're looking south?

Mr. CRAIG. The southeast corner window and you're looking south, the shells would be on your right and back away from the window, as I recall, about a foot.

Mr. BELIN. Do you recall any of the shells right up against the wall at all--or, don't you recall?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't; I didn't look that close.

Mr. BELIN. How many shells did you see there?

Mr. CRAIG. I saw three.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone move any boxes in order to get in there--do you know?

Mr. CRAIG. Now, that, I don't know?

Mr. BELIN. Do you know if anyone moved any boxes in the window?

Mr. CRAIG. That I don't know either.

Mr. BELIN. Did you look very closely at the area where the shells were found?

Mr. CRAIG. Uh--no, because the identification men hadn't arrived, and we didn't want to stir up anything.

Mr. BELIN. Who was there that you remember?

Mr. CRAIG. Oh, Officer Mooney with our department--Luke Mooney; Officer Boone--Eugene Boone, with our department; myself; and some city officers that I didn't know. Those are the only that I remember. You know, there were several other people around but I didn't know them.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did you do after that?

Mr. CRAIG. They wanted to search the building for the weapon, so I went to the--I went to the northeast corner of the building and began to search west.

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. CRAIG. Uh--everybody else took a different spot. And as I got nearly to the west end of the building, Officer Boone--Eugene Boone with the sheriff's office--hollered that here was the rifle.

Mr. BELIN. How far were you from Officer Boone when he hollered?

Mr. CRAIG. About 8-foot.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. CRAIG. I went over to the--uh--cluster of boxes where he was standing and looked down between the boxes and saw the rifle lying on the floor.

Mr. BELIN. When you say "between the cluster of boxes," could you describe which way the boxes were?

Mr. CRAIG. There was a row going east to west on the north side of the weapon, and a box going east to west on the south side of the weapon, and--uh--if I remember, uh--as you'd look down, you had to look kinda back under the north stack of boxes to see the rifle. It was pushed kinda under--uh--or up tight against 'em--you know, where it would be hard to see. And, of course, both ends of the rows were closed off where you couldn't see through 'em. You had to get up and look in 'em.

Mr. BELIN. You are gesturing with your hand there--would you say that the boxes, then, as you gestured, were in the shape of what I would call a rectangular "O", so to speak?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes, yes, uh-huh.

Mr. BELIN. And about how high were the walls of this enclosure, so to speak?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, it--it was different heights. Now, the part where I looked in particularly was about--uh--oh, was about 5-foot.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

And you gestured there in such a way that you had to lean over and look straight down? Would that be a fair statement of your gestures?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; yes. You had to lean over the boxes and look down.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what happened? After you found this, did people come over--or what?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; several other people came over.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about what time this was?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I had no idea then how long it had been.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Do you remember who else came over?

Mr. CRAIG. Oh, Officer Mooney and--uh--several of the city officers; Will Fritz came over--Capt. Will Fritz, with the city of Dallas; some of his investigators, I didn't know them; and a criminal identification man, I believe, from the city of Dallas, then came over there to take pictures of the weapon.

Mr. BELIN. The weapon was moved by the time the pictures were taken?

Mr. CRAIG. No; no. The pictures were taken as the weapon was found lying there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the pictures taken of the shells?

Mr. CRAIG. No.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know whether or not anything was moved in that window before this?

Mr. CRAIG. No; no.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Anything else happen up to that time that you haven't related here that you feel might be important?

Mr. CRAIG. No. Uh--I'm thinking it was about this time--uh--that we got the news there had been a city officer shot over in Oak Cliff.

Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, there was just--uh--of course, everybody stayed there, you know, and sort of mingled around and--uh--I then went back downstairs after the weapon was picked up. The identification man from the city of Dallas then, after he took his pictures, picked the weapon up and handed it to Will Fritz.

And I then went back downstairs and over to the sheriff's office.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

At this time, do you know, did any person say that any employee in the School Building was missing up until the time you left?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't recall anybody saying anything to that effect.

Mr. BELIN. Had any description gone out for anyone that you know of with regard to the shooting?

Mr. CRAIG. I think--uh--no description of the suspect in the shooting of the officer hadn't went out at this time, but----

Mr. BELIN. You don't know of any other that went out at that time?

Mr. CRAIG. No; no.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Then you went back over to the Dallas Sheriff's Office?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, I think I gave a statement to Rosemary Allen over there, as did all the officers, as to what they were doing at the time, you know.

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. CRAIG. And--uh--then I kept thinking about this man that had run down the hill and got in this car, so--uh--it was about, oh, I don't recall exactly the time, nearly 5 or something like that, or after, when--uh--the city had apprehended a suspect in the city officer's shooting. And--uh--information was floating around that they were trying to connect him with the assassination of the President--as the assassin.

So--uh, in the meantime, I kept thinking about this subject that had run and got in the car. So, I called Captain Fritz' office and talked to one of his officers and--uh--told him what I had saw and give him a description of the man, asked him how it fit the man they had picked up as a suspect.

And--uh--it was then they asked me to come up and look at him at Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did you do?

Mr. CRAIG. I drove up to Fritz' office about, oh, after 5--about 5:30 or something like that--and--uh--talked to Captain Fritz and told him what I had saw. And he took me in his office--I believe it was his office--it was a little office, and had the suspect setting in a chair behind a desk--beside the desk. And another gentleman, I didn't know him, he was sitting in another chair to my left as I walked in the office.

And Captain Fritz asked me was this the man I saw--and I said, "Yes," it was.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Will you describe the man you saw in Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. CRAIG. Oh, he was sitting down but--uh--he had the same medium brown hair; it was still--well, it was kinda wild looking; he was slender, and--uh--what I could tell of him sitting there, he was--uh--short. By that, I mean not--myself, I'm five eleven--he was shorter than I was. And--uh--fairly light build.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see his trousers?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I couldn't see his trousers at all.

Mr. BELIN. What about his shirt?

Mr. CRAIG. I believe, as close as I can remember, a T-shirt--a white T-shirt.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

But you didn't see him in a lineup? You just saw him sitting there?

Mr. CRAIG. No; he was sitting there by himself in a chair--off to one side.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then, what did Captain Fritz say and what did you say and what did the suspect say?

Mr. CRAIG. Captain Fritz then asked him about the--uh--he said, "What about this station wagon?"

And the suspect interrupted him and said, "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine"--I believe is what he said. "Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."

And--uh--Captain Fritz then told him, as close as I can remember, that, "All we're trying to do is find out what happened, and this man saw you leave from the scene."

And the suspect again interrupted Captain Fritz and said, "I told you people I did." And--uh--yeah--then, he said--then he continued and he said, "Everybody will know who I am now."

And he was leaning over the desk. At this time, he had risen partially out of the chair and leaning over the desk, looking directly at Captain Fritz.

Mr. BELIN. What was he wearing--or could you see the color of his trousers as he leaned over the desk?

Mr. CRAIG. No; because he never--he just leaned up, you know, sort of forward--not actually up, just out of his chair like that (indicating) forward.

Mr. BELIN. Then, did you say anything more?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I then left.

Mr. BELIN. Well, in other words, the only thing you ever said was, "This was the man,"--or words to that effect?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did Captain Fritz say anything more.

Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't believe--not while I was there.

Mr. BELIN. Did the suspect say anything more?

Mr. CRAIG. Not that I recall.

Mr. BELIN. Did you say anything about that it was a Rambler station wagon there?

Mr. CRAIG. In the presence of the suspect?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. CRAIG. No.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know whether Captain Fritz said anything to the suspect about this incident before you came, do you?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of involving this interrogation at which you were present?

Mr. CRAIG. No. Nothing else was said after that point. I then left and give my name to the--uh--Secret Service agent and the FBI agent that was outside the office.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else in connection with the assassination that you think might be important that we haven't discussed here?

Mr. CRAIG. No; except--uh--except for the fact that it came out later that Mrs. Paine does own a station wagon and--uh--it has a luggage rack on top. And this came out, of course, later, after I got back to the office. I didn't know about this. Buddy Walthers brought it up. I believe they went by the house and the car was parked in the driveway.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of?

Mr. CRAIG. No. That's all. I forgot about it and went back to work.

Mr. BELIN. Now, prior to the time we had your deposition taken, we chatted for a few minutes about some of these things--is that correct?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. For instance, we talked about your conversation with this young couple--this Arnold Rowland and his wife?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that we said before the deposition was taken that we haven't recorded here?

Mr. CRAIG. I don't believe so.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that I said or you said in our conversation that is different from anything that was recorded here--to the best of your recollection?

Mr. CRAIG. No; except you asked me before, I believe, did I talk to any of the railroad employees.

Mr. BELIN. That's right.

Mr. CRAIG. And I said, "No"--which I did not.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. CRAIG. (Pausing before reply.) No--nothing that I recall.

Mr. BELIN. In our conversation, did you just relate to me what your story was before we sat down to take the deposition?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Will you agree to follow or to waive signing of the deposition and leave it in the Court Reporter's hands--or do you want to sign it?

Mr. CRAIG. It makes no difference to me.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, you had notice of this, did you not, of this taking of this deposition?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes. I have the letter right here in my pocket.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Anything else you can think of, sir?

Mr. CRAIG. No.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you for taking your time to come down here and we appreciate your cooperation. We would appreciate your, also, thanking Sheriff Decker for us, if you would, when you get back there.

Mr. CRAIG. Okay.

Mr. BELIN. Thank you very much.

One other thing before you go, Mr. Craig. We might have covered this before, but I want to doublecheck it.

When you talked to Mr. Rowland about what he saw in the window, did he say whether or not two men he saw were white or colored?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I determined that right away. I asked him whether they were white or colored and he said white.

Mr. BELIN. What else did he tell you about them? Did he tell you how much of them he saw?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes. He said they--uh--walked back and forth in front of the windows there--uh--several minutes. You know, not a long time but 3, 4, 5 minutes. He did state that one of them had a rifle with a scope on it.

Mr. BELIN. Did he give you the color of the hair or the complexion or anything like that?

Mr. CRAIG. No--no; this he couldn't give.

Mr. BELIN. Could he give you the type of clothing they were wearing?

Mr. CRAIG. If I recall, he was vague on one--he thought it was khakis, but the other man he wasn't sure.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you anything else about these people?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; he said he looked up a few minutes later and--uh--there was only one man up there then.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever tell you anything about seeing any other people in any other windows?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; he said there were people in other windows looking over the ledges--you know, leaning up against the outside of the windows, looking out.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you whether any of these other people were on the sixth floor?

Mr. CRAIG. No; these two men were the only ones he saw on that particular floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you that was the sixth floor he saw them on?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes. He said the second to the top floor--the next floor down; which would be the sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you about ever seeing anyone else on the sixth floor--or did he say that he didn't see anyone else on the sixth floor? Or don't you remember?

Mr. CRAIG. Just the two men. That's all he saw on that particular floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did you specifically ask him if he saw anyone else on that floor, or did he say that he did not?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I asked him and he said----

Mr. BELIN. Well, what was your statement to him and what was his to you?

Mr. CRAIG. I asked him was there anybody else on the floor with these two men. And he said, "No, just the two of them."

Mr. BELIN. Did he say that he saw these two men together first?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And then he just saw one, as I understand it?

Mr. CRAIG. A few minutes later, he looked back up there and saw just the man with the rifle.

Mr. BELIN. I believe he said earlier that he saw these men around 15 minutes before the motorcade arrived? And then a few minutes later, you say that he told you he saw only one man?

Mr. CRAIG. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Did he then tell you that he saw no men--or what did he say about what he saw after that?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, then, I took him to Officer Lewis and turned him over to Lemmy Lewis.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of about that conversation?

Mr. CRAIG. No; there was not--I don't think there was anything else discussed except for the fact that he told me he thought--he said he thought he was a Secret Service agent--and that's why he didn't report it.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, if you would just wait here one more minute, Mr. Craig, Mr. Ball stepped in and he's going down to pick up some clothing. And we'd like to have you take a look at this clothing and see if this looks familiar to any of the clothing that you saw on the man running toward the Rambler.

If you'll just wait a minute here please sir.

(Mr. Ball returns to deposition room with box of clothing.)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Craig, I hand you Exhibit No. 150. Have you ever seen a shirt like this before? Does this look familiar to the shirt that the suspect might have been wearing when you saw him, or this man running toward the station wagon?

Mr. CRAIG. It's the same type of shirt.

Mr. BELIN. I believe you used the phrase, "light shirt". Would Exhibit 150 be darker than the shirt that he was wearing?

Mr. CRAIG. Uh--it looks darker in here--yes, uh-huh.

Mr. BELIN. Was this man running towards the station wagon wearing a jacket?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't believe he was.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you Exhibit No. 156. Did the trousers that this man running toward the station wagon had on--were they this color--lighter, darker, or a different kind of trousers--or what?

Mr. CRAIG. No. They were--uh--they were work trousers like those; but they looked blue to me.

Mr. BELIN. And this Exhibit 156 looks kind of gray?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit 157?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, those are more the color.

Mr. BELIN. But they still looked different from Exhibit 157, too?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Have you discussed with Sheriff Decker the fact that when Oswald was picked up they found a bus transfer in his pocket?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I knew--uh--nothing about a bus transfer.

Mr. BELIN. Do you feel, in your own mind, that the man you saw at Captain Fritz's office was the same man that you saw running towards the station wagon?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I feel like it was.

Mr. BELIN. Do you feel that you might have been influenced by the fact that you knew he was the suspect--subconsciously, or do you----

Mr. CRAIG. Well, it's--it's possible, but I still feel strongly that it was the same person.

Mr. BELIN. Okay. That's it. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE W. RACKLEY, SR.

The testimony of George W. Rackley, Sr., was taken at 11 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Rackley, do you want to stand and raise your right hand and be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. RACKLEY. I do.

Mr. BELIN. You can be seated. Your name is George W. Rackley, Sr?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Rackley?

Mr. RACKLEY. I live at Ferris.

Mr. BELIN. Texas?

Mr. RACKLEY. Ferris, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Were you raised in Texas?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Born in Texas?

Mr. RACKLEY. No; I was born in Alabama.

Mr. BELIN. Raised in Texas? Go to school here in Texas?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?

Mr. RACKLEY. Fifth.

Mr. BELIN. Fifth grade?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I went to farming.

Mr. BELIN. You went to farming?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I am from Iowa. We do a lot of farming up there.

Mr. RACKLEY. That is what I do here.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you do?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, at the present I am working for the Coordinated Railroad Co.

Mr. BELIN. For the what?

Mr. RACKLEY. For the Katy. It is a Katy railroad project, but it is a coordinated deal.

Mr. BELIN. What are you doing?

Mr. RACKLEY. I unload trailers.

Mr. BELIN. You unload trailers?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Let me backtrack. How old are you?

Mr. RACKLEY. I am 60.

Mr. BELIN. You said you quit school in the Fifth Grade and went to farming. How long did you farm?

Mr. RACKLEY. I farmed up to 3 years ago.

Mr. BELIN. You farmed up to 3 years ago?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of farming?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I raised cotton and corn.

Mr. BELIN. Then 3 years ago where did you go to work?

Mr. RACKLEY. I went to work here. Well, I have been working off in spare times for about 8 years.

Mr. BELIN. For the same place?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes; same place.

Mr. BELIN. Is that here in Dallas?

Mr. RACKLEY. That is here in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Where in Dallas is it?

Mr. RACKLEY. It is on Ross and Market Street, about two blocks from the courthouse.

Mr. BELIN. Now where is it with relation to the corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, it is on up on Ross. Two blocks north is where our place is.

Mr. BELIN. Your place is two blocks north of the corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You work indoors or outdoors?

Mr. RACKLEY. Just all over town.

Mr. BELIN. Just all over town?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you working around the noon hour of Friday, November 22, 1963?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I was there at the office.

Mr. BELIN. Were you inside or outside?

Mr. RACKLEY. Our office is just a little small place. Well, just outside, you might say, of it.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the President's motorcade at all on that day?

Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Were you standing with anyone there?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. With whom?

Mr. RACKLEY. With James Romack. I and him had walked out.

Mr. BELIN. You had walked out?

Mr. RACKLEY. I heard the siren; the parade was coming.

Mr. BELIN. You heard sirens?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. And I had walked out in front of the place to where I could get a better view, as a fellow says.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you standing?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I had walked out in the truck lot.

Mr. BELIN. In the truck lot?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And was that----

Mr. RACKLEY. You might say would have been in the middle of the street.

Mr. BELIN. Would that have been in the middle of Houston Street?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. In what direction were you facing?

Mr. RACKLEY. Facing south.

Mr. BELIN. All right, did you see the motorcade at all?

Mr. RACKLEY. No.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. RACKLEY. I didn't practically see anything.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any sounds at all?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. Heard the sounds of the parade.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the sounds that sounded like firecrackers or shots at all?

Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Didn't hear that?

Mr. RACKLEY. No.

Mr. BELIN. About how far would you have been from the northeast corner of the Texas School Book Depository when you were standing there?

Mr. RACKLEY. I would say right at a block.

Mr. BELIN. About a block. Do you have any idea about how many feet that is?

Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Were you just standing there, or were you walking?

Mr. RACKLEY. I was just standing there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything happen at all there?

Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone in the parade?

Mr. RACKLEY. The only thing--I told the guy, he was down there, the only thing that I saw that looked suspicious to me, there was something like a hundred pigeons flew up like you shot into them, and I noticed that, but I never heard no shots.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you see them fly from?

Mr. RACKLEY. From over the top of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Which building? The School Book Depository or over on the other side?

Mr. RACKLEY. The Trinity Building.

Mr. BELIN. Which building did they fly off of?

Mr. RACKLEY. I wasn't looking. I just seen they all flew together.

Mr. BELIN. Did it look like they were flying up from both buildings?

Mr. RACKLEY. Both buildings.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know about when this took place?

Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. About what time was it that you were looking that way, do you remember, offhand?

Mr. RACKLEY. No; but it was just at the time that the parade was nearing there, I know that.

Mr. BELIN. Had any of the parade already gone by the corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. RACKLEY. I couldn't say.

Mr. BELIN. So you don't know whether it did or didn't?

Mr. RACKLEY. No.

Mr. BELIN. But would you say it was about that time that the motorcade was to be going by there?

Mr. RACKLEY. It was between 11 and 12.

Mr. BELIN. It was between 11 and 12?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. O'clock?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What time did you--was this before or after you had lunch?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I just eat just any time I get a chance.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know accurately what time it was?

Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Could it have been as late as 12:30?

Mr. RACKLEY. No.

Mr. BELIN. It was before 12:30?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Before 12?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Sometime between 11 and 12?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, it was at the time that, really, that they had shot him, because I was there when the policemen covered the place.

Mr. BELIN. You were there when the policemen covered the place?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. With relation to the time that the policemen covered the place, how many minutes before that did you see the birds fly up?

Mr. RACKLEY. I saw the pigeons there 2 or 3 minutes before that.

Mr. BELIN. Now after you saw the pigeons, you saw the police covering the place?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Within 2 or 3 minutes after you saw the pigeons?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people coming out the back door at all?

Mr. RACKLEY. No.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see the back door of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. That was at the dock they have back there?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Were you looking towards that direction?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About how long did you keep your eyes fixed over there?

Mr. RACKLEY. Oh, I would say 5 minutes anyhow. Probably 10. I was looking up that way at all times.

Mr. BELIN. Five or 10 minutes, you figure?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people leave the Texas School Book Depository by way of the rear exit?

Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people running north on Houston Street?

Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you tell your company supervisor that there had been some shooting?

Mr. RACKLEY. No; not right then.

Mr. BELIN. Later did you tell them?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes; I imagine.

Mr. BELIN. You said you stayed there 5 or 10 minutes looking to the south?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, when the policemen began to crowd around and they all over the place, well then I told him I thought that something had happened over there.

I wasn't expecting anything like that until I just, of course, seen the policemen all out there running back. They came out the back door and the side door with guns.

Mr. BELIN. Who did you tell that to that you thought something happened there?

Mr. RACKLEY. Gail George.

Mr. BELIN. Is that your foreman?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. After you said you kept your eyes on this looking south for 5 or 10 minutes, what did you do after that?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I went back to the office.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after that?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. During this period of 5 or 10 minutes, did you walk close to the building at all, or just stand there?

Mr. RACKLEY. Just stood out there.

Mr. BELIN. What about Romack? Did he stand with you, or did he walk closer?

Mr. RACKLEY. He walked closer.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that in any way might be relevant to this inquiry?

Mr. RACKLEY. It wasn't a thing that I knew. I didn't really know or expect what was taking place.

Mr. BELIN. Other than the pigeons?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Sir, we thank you for your cooperation. You have a right, if you want, to come back down and read your testimony and sign it, or you can just waive doing that and have the court reporter send it directly to us without your taking another trip down here. You can do it either way.

Mr. RACKLEY. I can sign it now.

Mr. BELIN. You can either waive signing it or else you can come down again and read it and sign it. By waiving, I mean you just let it go, assuming that the court reporter will accurately transcribe it, or you have a right to come in and read it.

Mr. RACKLEY. I will just let it go.

Mr. BELIN. You waive signing it?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. That is all for now.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES ELBERT ROMACK

The testimony of James Elbert Romack was taken at 11:30 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. You want to stand and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ROMACK. I do.

Mr. BELIN. My name is David Belin. I am actually a practicing attorney from Des Moines, Iowa. I have been with the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy for several months here, and we asked you to come down to have your deposition taken.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the record?

Mr. ROMACK. James Elbert Romack.

Mr. BELIN. R-o-m-a-c-k?

Mr. ROMACK. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Romack?

Mr. ROMACK. 10825 Benbrook Drive, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. How old a man are you?

Mr. ROMACK. I am 39 years of age.

Mr. BELIN. Were you born in Texas?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Go to school here?

Mr. ROMACK. I went to school in Texas, yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?

Mr. ROMACK. I got a couple of years of college.

Mr. BELIN. A couple of years of college?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What college?

Mr. ROMACK. East Texas State Teachers College and Technological College.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to college right after high school?

Mr. ROMACK. It was right after the war.

Mr. BELIN. You went right after the war?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go----