Chapter VI: Part 6

Dr. PETERS. As I recall, he was shot about 12:35 our time; is that correct?

Mr. SPECTER. I believe that's been fixed most precisely at 12:30, Dr. Peters.

Dr. PETERS. So, I would estimate it was probably about 12:50 when I got there, I really don't know for certain.

Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you find present, if anyone, when you arrived?

Dr. PETERS. When I arrived the following people I noted were present in the room: Drs. Perry, Baxter, Ron Jones, and McClelland. The first thing I noticed, of course, was that President Kennedy was on the stretcher and that his feet were slightly elevated. He appeared to be placed in a position in which we usually treat a patient who is in shock, and I noticed that Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter were present and that they were working on his throat. I also noticed that Dr. Ron Jones was present in the room. I took off my coat and asked what I could do to help, and then saw it was President Kennedy. I really didn't know it was President Kennedy until that time. Dr. Perry was there and he and Dr. Baxter were doing the tracheotomy and we asked for a set of tracheotomy tubes to try and get one of the appropriate size. I then helped Dr. Baxter assemble the tracheotomy tube which he inserted into the tracheotomy wound that he and Dr. Perry had created.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any others present at that time, before you go on as to what aid you rendered?

Dr. PETERS. I believe Dr. Carrico----

Mr. SPECTER. Any other doctors present?

Dr. PETERS. And Dr. Jenkins was present.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now covered all of those who were present at that time?

Dr. PETERS. And Dr. Shaw walked into the room and left--for a moment--but he didn't stay. He just sort of glanced at the President and went across the hall. Mrs. Kennedy was in the corner with someone who identified himself as the personal physician of the President--I don't remember his name.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Burkley?

Dr. PETERS. I don't know his name. That's just who he said he was, because he was asking that the President be given some steroids, which was done.

Mr. SPECTER. He requested that.

Dr. PETERS. That's right, he said he should have some steroids because he was an Addisonian.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by that in lay language?

Dr. PETERS. Well, Addison's disease is a disease of the adrenal cortex which is characterized by a deficiency in the elaboration of certain hormones that allow an individual to respond to stress and these hormones are necessary for life, and if they cannot be replaced, the individual may succumb.

Mr. SPECTER. And Dr. Burkley, or whoever was the President's personal physician, made a request that you treat him as an Addisonian?

Dr. PETERS. That's right--he recommended that he be given steroids because he was an Addisonian--that's what he said.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any nurses present at that time?

Dr. PETERS. I don't remember a nurse being in the room all the time, but they were coming in and out.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you identified all the people who were present to the best of your recollection?

Dr. PETERS. Did I mention Dr. Robert McClelland, he was also there.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Dulany there?

Dr. PETERS. I don't remember him, he may have been.

Mr. SPECTER. Who else was there, if anyone, that you can recall, or have you now given me everyone you can recall?

Dr. PETERS. Well, I am giving you my impression of the situation as I walked in and those are the ones I remember right now. Dr. Kemp Clark also came in during the maneuvering.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, who else came in during the course of the operative procedures?

Dr. PETERS. The anesthesiologists, Drs. Jenkins and Gene Akin, I believe, came in.

Mr. SPECTER. Did anyone else come in?

Dr. PETERS. I am not certain of anyone else.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, tell us what aid was rendered to President Kennedy.

Dr. PETERS. Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter were doing the tracheotomy and a set of tracheotomy tubes was obtained and the appropriate size was determined and I gave it to Baxter, who helped Perry put it into the wound, and Perry noted also that there appeared to be a bubbling sensation in the chest and recommended that chest tubes be put in. Dr. Ron Jones put a chest tube in on the left side and Dr. Baxter and I put it in on the right side--I made the incision in the President's chest, and I noted that there was no bleeding from the wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you put that chest tube all the way in on the right side?

Dr. PETERS. That's our presumption--yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what else was done for the President?

Dr. PETERS. About the same time--there was a question of whether he really had an adequate pulse, and so Dr. Ronald Jones and I pulled his pants down and noticed that he was wearing his brace which had received a lot of publicity in the lay press, and also that he had an elastic bandage wrapped around his pelvis at--in a sort of a figure eight fashion, so as to encompass both thighs and the lower trunk.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of that bandage?

Dr. PETERS. I presume that it was--my thoughts at the time were that he probably had been having pelvic pain and had put this on as an additional support to stabilize his lower pelvis. It seemed quite interesting to me that the President of the United States had on an ordinary $3 Ace bandage probably in an effort to stabilize his pelvis. I suppose he had been having some back pain and that was my thought at the time, but we removed this bandage in an effort to feel a femoral pulse. We were never certain that we got a good pulse.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe in as much detail as you can the type of brace he was wearing?

Dr. PETERS. Well, it appeared similar to a corset.

Mr. SPECTER. How thick was it?

Dr. PETERS. I would estimate it was one-eighth of an inch.

Mr. SPECTER. An eighth of an inch thick?

Dr. PETERS. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And how high was it?

Dr. PETERS. Well, it completely encompassed his midsection.

Mr. SPECTER. It encompassed his midsection?

Dr. PETERS. His circumference--yes--and it was probably, I would guess about 8 to 11 inches.

Mr. SPECTER. In width?

Dr. PETERS. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Running in his waist area at the top of his hips up to the lower part of his chest?

Dr. PETERS. I would estimate that it went from the lower part of his chest to the pelvic girdle. About this time it was noted also that he had no effective heart action, and Dr. Perry asked whether he should open the chest and massage the heart. In the meantime, of course, the tracheotomy had been done and completed and had been hooked on to apparatus for assisting his respiration.

Mr. SPECTER. And what action, if any, was taken on the open-heart massage?

Dr. PETERS. It was pointed out that an examination of the brain had been done. Dr. Jenkins had observed the brain and Dr. Clark had observed the brain and it was pointed out to Dr. Perry that it appeared to be a mortal wound, and involving the brain, and that open-heart massage would probably not add anything to what had already been done, and that external cardiac massage is known to be as efficient as direct massage of the heart itself.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any further treatment rendered to the President?

Dr. PETERS. Yes, Dr. Perry began immediate external compression of the chest in an effort to massage the heart, even before he asked the question as to whether the thoracotomy should be done. As soon as there was a question as to whether there was a pulse or not, he immediately began external chest compression.

Mr. SPECTER. What other action was taken to aid the President, if any?

Dr. PETERS. Well, cut downs were done on the extremities, and tubes were inserted in the veins, and I know on the right ankle anteriorly, and I believe in the left arm and also in the left leg, in order to administer fluid and blood which he did receive.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the medical attention given the President?

Dr. PETERS. Well, I believe I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And was the President subsequently pronounced dead?

Dr. PETERS. That's correct.

Mr. SPECTER. And about what time was that pronouncement made?

Dr. PETERS. I could not give you the time within 5 or 10 minutes--I can tell you this much, though, I know what actually did happen.

Mr. SPECTER. Tell me that.

Dr. PETERS. I was--we pronounced him dead and I was in the room, present while the priest gave him the last rites, during which time there was Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Baxter and Dr. McClelland, Mrs. Kennedy, the priest, and myself. Dr. Perry had left, as had most of the others by that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you remain?

Dr. PETERS. Well, I just hadn't gotten out of the door when the priest first came in and Dr. Jenkins asked everyone to leave except those people I have just named.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did he exclude those from the group which were to leave?

Dr. PETERS. Well, I think they were nurses, and several other people he thought just best not remain and I'm sure that there was no intention to personally exclude anyone behind his request. He just sort of looked around and saw who appeared to be there and asked the others to leave.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the nature of the President's wound?

Dr. PETERS. Well, as I mentioned, the neck wound had already been interfered with by the tracheotomy at the time I got there, but I noticed the head wound, and as I remember--I noticed that there was a large defect in the occiput.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you notice in the occiput?

Dr. PETERS. It seemed to me that in the right occipitalparietal area that there was a large defect. There appeared to be bone loss and brain loss in the area.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any holes below the occiput, say, in this area below here?

Dr. PETERS. No, I did not and at the time and the moments immediately following the injury, we speculated as to whether he had been shot once or twice because we saw the wound of entry in the throat and noted the large occipital wound, and it is a known fact that high velocity missiles often have a small wound of entrance and a large wound of exit, and I'm just giving you my honest impressions at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. What were they?

Dr. PETERS. Well, I wondered whether or not he had been shot once or twice--that was my question at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we speculate," whom do you mean by that?

Dr. PETERS. Well, the doctors in attendance there.

Mr. SPECTER. Any doctor specifically?

Dr. PETERS. I wouldn't mention anyone specifically, we all discussed it. I did not know whether or not he had been shot once or twice.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to observe the wound on his neck prior to the time the tracheotomy was performed?

Dr. PETERS. No, I did not. The tracheotomy was already being done by Dr. Baxter and Dr. Perry when I got in the room. I did not see the wound on his neck.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any written reports on the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. PETERS. No, I did not; no one asked me to.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you prepare any notes of any sort, or do you have any notes of any sort?

Dr. PETERS. No; I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the cause of death in your opinion?

Dr. PETERS. I would assume that it was irreversible damage to the centers in the brain which control the heart and respiration.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any representatives of the Federal Government about this matter prior to today?

Dr. PETERS. No; I have not.

Mr. SPECTER. And prior to the time the court reporter came in, did you and I have a brief discussion as to the nature of this deposition and the questions that I would ask you?

Dr. PETERS. No; I was not informed as to any specific questions. I knew the general nature of the testimony which I would give.

Mr. SPECTER. From the discussion?

Dr. PETERS. From the letter I had received from the counsel signed by Mr. Rankin.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I have a brief conversation here in this room today before the court reporter came in?

Dr. PETERS. Yes; we did.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of assistance to the President's Commission in its investigation?

Dr. PETERS. I do not--regarding the immediate condition of the President.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming, Dr. Peters, we are very much obliged to you.

Dr. PETERS. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DR. ADOLPH HARTUNG GIESECKE, JR.

The testimony of Dr. Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr., was taken at 1:40 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the Presidents Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. A. H. Giesecke, Jr., is present in response to a letter request from the Commission to appear at this deposition proceeding in connection with the President's Commission to Investigate the Assassination of President Kennedy, including his medical treatment at Parkland Hospital.

Dr. Giesecke has been asked to appear to testify about his knowledge of the treatment that President Kennedy and Governor Connally received at Parkland Hospital on November 22, and with that preliminary statement of purpose and objective, would you please stand up, Dr. Giesecke, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this President's Commission in these deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes; I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name, please, for the record?

Dr. GIESECKE. Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr. H-a-r-t-u-n-g (spelling).

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession?

Dr. GIESECKE. I am a physician and anesthesiologist.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed to practice medicine in the State of Texas?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you board-certified?

Dr. GIESECKE. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you working for board-certification?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background, please?

Dr. GIESECKE. I graduated--how far back do you want me to go?

Mr. SPECTER. Start with college, graduation from college, if you would, please.

Dr. GIESECKE. I was on an accelerated plan through the University of Texas but have no college degree. I matriculated to medical school in 1953, September 1953, graduated May 30, 1957, from the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston, Tex. I did my internship at William Beaumont Army Hospital at El Paso, following which I served 24 months on active duty in the Army as an aviation medical officer. I was stationed primarily at the Presidio at San Francisco, Calif. Upon discharge from the Army, I came to Parkland Hospital, completed a 3-year residency in anesthesiology in July 1963. Since that time I have been an assistant professor on the anesthesiology staff at Southwestern Medical School.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render medical attention to President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline the circumstances under which you were called into that matter?

Dr. GIESECKE. I was eating lunch in the cafeteria when Dr. Jenkins approached the table and told me that the President had been shot and asked me to bring some resuscitative equipment from the operating room to the emergency room, which I did.

Mr. SPECTER. And at what time did you arrive at the emergency room, approximately?

Dr. GIESECKE. Can I look and see when I induced the Governor?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes. May the record show that Dr. Giesecke is now referring to a letter from A. H. Giesecke, Jr., M.D., to Mr. C. J. Price, administrator, dated November 25, 1963, which I will ask the reporter to mark as "Dr. Giesecke's Exhibit No. 1."

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Dr. Giesecke Exhibit No. 1," for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. Let me ask you a question or two, first about this, Dr. Giesecke, to qualify--is this a copy of the report which you submitted to Mr. Price?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes, that is a real copy.

Mr. SPECTER. And all the facts contained in this report are true and correct?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And do they concern the treatment which was rendered by you to President Kennedy and Governor Connally?

Dr. GIESECKE. That's correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, refer to that if you wish, if it will help you answer the last question.

Dr. GIESECKE. I arrived in the emergency room at 12:40 p.m., between 12:40 and 12:45.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was present at the time you arrived?

Dr. GIESECKE. Dr. Jenkins was present, Dr. Carrico, Dr. Dulany, Dr. Baxter, Dr. Perry, Dr. McClelland, and Drs. Akin and Hunt arrived at the same time that I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other people present, such as nurses?

Dr. GIESECKE. Mrs. Kennedy was in the room--I could not say--I can't say who else was there. There may have been a nurse there, I just don't remember. It seemed to me there was a Secret Service man there too, with Mrs. Kennedy.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure Dr. Dulany was there, as distinguished from being with Governor Connally?

Dr. GIESECKE. Perhaps--perhaps--I'm shaky on that.

Mr. SPECTER. The reason I asked you about that specifically is because Dr. Carriro testified this morning that he and Dr. Dulany were on duty and Dr. Dulany went immediately with Governor Connally and Dr. Carrico went to President Kennedy.

Dr. GIESECKE. That may well be.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of the President when you arrived?

Dr. GIESECKE. There was a great deal of blood loss which was apparent when he came in the room--the cart was covered with blood and there was a great deal of blood on the floor. There was--I could see no spontaneous motion on the part of the President. In other words, he made no movement during the time that I was in the room. As I moved around towards the head of the emergency cart with the anesthesia machine and the resuscitative equipment and helped Dr. Jenkins to hook the anesthesia machine up to the President to give him oxygen, I noticed that he had a very large cranial wound, with loss of brain substance, and it seemed that most of the bleeding was coming from the cranial wound.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe specifically as to the nature of the cranial wound?

Dr. GIESECKE. It seemed that from the vertex to the left ear, and from the browline to the occiput on the left-hand side of the head the cranium was entirely missing.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that the left-hand side of the head, or the right-hand side of the head?

Dr. GIESECKE. I would say the left, but this is just my memory of it.

Mr. SPECTER. That's your recollection?

Dr. GIESECKE. Right, like I say, I was there a very short time--really.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other wound or bullet hole below the large area of missing skull?

Dr. GIESECKE. No; when I arrived the tracheotomy was in progress at that time and so I observed no other wound except the one on the cranium.

Mr. SPECTER. On the cranium itself, did you observe another bullet hole below the portion of missing skull?

Dr. GIESECKE. No, sir; this was found later by Dr. Clark--I didn't see this.

Mr. SPECTER. What makes you say that that hole was found later by Dr. Clark?

Dr. GIESECKE. Well, this is hearsay--I wasn't there when they found it and I didn't notice it.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, Dr. Clark didn't observe that hole.

Dr. GIESECKE. Oh, he didn't--I'm sorry.

Mr. SPECTER. From whom did you hear that the hole had been observed, if you recollect?

Dr. GIESECKE. Oh--I must be confused. We talked to so many people about these things--I don't remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the condition of the President's neck, what was its status at the time you first observed it?

Dr. GIESECKE. Well, like I say, they were performing the tracheotomy, and I personally saw no wound in the neck other than the tracheotomy wound. As soon as the tracheotomy was completed, we removed the endotracheal tube and hooked the anesthesia machine to the tracheotomy tube and efforts were made then to put in a chest tube, an anterior chest tube.

Mr. SPECTER. How long were you with President Kennedy altogether?

Dr. GIESECKE. Approximately 5 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described everything which was done during the time you were there?

Dr. GIESECKE. No--after having assisted Dr. Jenkins in establishing a ventilation, I then hooked up a cardiotachioscope or an electronic electrocardiographic monitor to the President by putting needles in the skin and plugging the thing in the wall, plugging the monitor in the wall. Before the machine had sufficient time to warm up to see if there were any electrical activity, then I was called out of the room.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you have any occasion to return to the room where the President was?

Dr. GIESECKE. No.

Mr. SPECTER. And where were you called to?

Dr. GIESECKE. I was called across the hall where Governor Connally was being moved out of the emergency treatment room and toward the operating room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what action did you take at that time, if any?

Dr. GIESECKE. I had my equipment with me--I had taken my equipment with me from the room where the President was, having ascertained that Dr. Jenkins didn't need anything that I had, and so I proceeded to the elevator. We moved the equipment and the Governor--the Governor went on the first elevator and I caught the second one.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you go on the second elevator?

Dr. GIESECKE. To the second floor where the operating suite is, moved off of the elevator and down to operating room 5, which was being set up for the Governor. The Governor had arrived and I obtained from the anesthesia orderly an anesthesia machine, checked it for safe operation, and discussed the Governor's condition a little bit with him, and determined that he was conscious and that he could respond to questions and that he hadn't eaten in the previous several hours, and proceeded to induce an anesthesia.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, are all the details of your activity in connection with Governor Connally's operation contained in the report marked "Dr. Giesecke's Exhibit No. 1"?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you mentioned a few minutes ago that you talked about this matter with a number of people--whom have you talked to, Dr. Giesecke?

Dr. GIESECKE. Well, of course, we discussed it with Dr. Jenkins and various members of the anesthesia staff. We have discussed it with--I've forgotten that gentleman's name, but he was from the American Medical Association, as a historian. We discussed it with Dr. Mike Bush, who then reported it in the Anesthesiology Newsletter, which is a publication of the American Society of Anesthesiologists, and then discussed it with the Secretary of--may I retract that. That's about it--that's the extent of the discussion, except with other members of the surgical staff and the anesthesia staff and these people.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever discussed this matter with any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes; there was a well documented Secret Service man here who said he was from the Warren Commission about a month ago, I imagine.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by "well documented"?

Dr. GIESECKE. Well, I mean he had a badge and a card and he seemed to be legitimate.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you tell him, if anything?

Dr. GIESECKE. He was asking rather specifically if we had made other notes than the reports that we had already submitted, so in essence it was just a matter of telling him, "No, I didn't have any other information written down except what I had already given."

Mr. SPECTER. And what had you already given--that letter report?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. That is marked "Giesecke Exhibit No. 1"?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Has any other representative talked to you from the Federal Government about this matter?

Dr. GIESECKE. No.

Mr. SPECTER. This afternoon prior to the time we went on the record, did I ask you a few questions and discuss the nature of this deposition proceeding, and did you give me information just as you have on the record here after the court reporter started to take everything down?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes; that's correct. She was out of the room for a few minutes before we started.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful to the Warren Commission in its investigation?

Dr. GIESECKE. No, I think that pretty well covers what I did.

Mr. SPECTER. May I thank you very much, Dr. Giesecke? That's fine.

Dr. GIESECKE. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DR. JACKIE HANSEN HUNT

The testimony of Dr. Jackie Hansen Hunt was taken at 1:12 p.m., on March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Jackie H. Hunt is present, and may I show for the record that the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy is conducting an inquiry into all the facts surrounding the assassination of the President, and the medical care performed on President Kennedy at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Dr. Hunt appears here today in response to a letter requesting that her deposition be taken, and may the record reflect the additional fact that Dr. Hunt is a lady doctor.

Would you at this time, Dr. Hunt, stand up and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. HUNT. I do, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name, please?

Dr. HUNT. Jackie Hansen Hunt, H-a-n-s-e-n (spelling).

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession?

Dr. HUNT. Medical doctor.

Mr. SPECTER. And, are you duly licensed to practice medicine by the State of Texas?

Dr. HUNT. I am.

Mr. SPECTER. And in what year were you so licensed?

Dr. HUNT. 1950.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background, please?

Dr. HUNT. I graduated from medical school at Tulane College of Medicine in 1949. I had a year of rotating internship followed by a year of pediatric residency. In 1961 I started a residency in anesthesiology, which I completed in 1963, and I am now a fellow in anesthesiology.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you board certified, then, Dr. Hunt, at this time?

Dr. HUNT. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you working toward board certification?

Dr. HUNT. Yes, I am. I am eligible and will take the first part in June.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion on November 22 to render medical aid to the late President Kennedy?

Dr. HUNT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called into the case?

Dr. HUNT. I was in Parkland Hospital on duty with the anesthesiology department and was notified by our chief of staff, Dr. M. T. Jenkins, that the President had been shot. Together with Dr. Giesecke and Dr. Akin, I got an anesthesia machine and put it on an elevator and checked it out and set it up on the way to the emergency room and took it into the emergency room where the President was and he had been intubated, and I helped Dr. Jenkins connect the anesthesia machine to the endotracheal tube which at that time was being run, I believe, by a Bird machine, and after making certain that the connections were properly done, I placed the equipment in Dr. Jenkins' hands.

Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were present when you arrived there, Dr. Hunt?

Dr. HUNT. Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Malc Perry--quite a number of others--I just can't remember who was there today.

Mr. SPECTER. Were any nurses present?

Dr. HUNT. Yes--I don't know the names of any of them.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe as to the condition of President Kennedy?

Dr. HUNT. The first good look I took at him I noticed that his eyes were opened and that the pupils were widely dilated and fixed and so I assumed that he was in essence dead.

Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did you arrive in the emergency room?

Dr. HUNT. I don't know--it would have been--I would think near 12:45, but I have really never even thought about it and I frankly don't remember.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long after you arrived did you have an opportunity to observe the President in the way which you have just described?

Dr. HUNT. How long was it from the time I came in until I looked at him?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, ma'am.

Dr. HUNT. A minute--2 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any other observations at that time?

Dr. HUNT. No--other than that everyone was working on him. They were doing cardiac massage, closed chest massage, I.V.'s were running, and others were being started.

Mr. SPECTER. I.V.'s?

Dr. HUNT. Intravenous fluids and, of course, our department was breathing for him.

Mr. SPECTER. And when you say "breathing for him," what do you mean by that?

Dr. HUNT. Ventilating him--an endotracheal tube down into the trachea attached to an anesthesia machine with 100 percent oxygen going, and by manual compression of the bag, ventilating him.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wounds on the President?

Dr. HUNT. I actually did not see the wounds.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you at any time see a wound to the head?

Dr. HUNT. No; I didn't see it.

Mr. SPECTER. And was there something obscuring your view from seeing the head wound?

Dr. HUNT. Yes; I could see his face and I could also see that a great deal of blood was running off of the table from his right side and I was on his left side.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you near his head or foot or the middle of the body?

Dr. HUNT. I was about midbody actually, well, no--more at his shoulder, when I leaned over to look at him.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever observe any wound in the neck?

Dr. HUNT. I did not actually see the wound in the neck. I say that because I assumed there was a wound--someone's hand was there and there was blood present, but there was blood on nearly everyone.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of his throat when you first observed him, if you did observe it at all?

Dr. HUNT. I couldn't--I don't know--I can't say. You mean, as far as inside or outside?

Mr. SPECTER. Outside.

Dr. HUNT. I don't actually remember seeing anything except someone's hands were using a sponge or something was present in the area.

Mr. SPECTER. What medical operation, if any, was performed on his throat?

Dr. HUNT. I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe a tracheotomy being performed on his throat?

Dr. HUNT. No--that's not to say that they were not doing one.

Mr. SPECTER. What else was done for the President other than that which you have already described?

Dr. HUNT. Well, let's see, I don't--as far as actual observation, I didn't--other things were done--I left at this time and went to Governor Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. At about what time did you leave President Kennedy?

Dr. HUNT. I was probably in the room no more than 4 minutes at the most.

Mr. SPECTER. Had he been pronounced dead by the time you left?

Dr. HUNT. No; he had not.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you go when you left the President's room?

Dr. HUNT. Straight across to operating room 2.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you find in operating room 2 when you arrived there?

Dr. HUNT. Governor Connally was present there and----

Mr. SPECTER. What doctors, if any, were present when you arrived?

Dr. HUNT. Red Duke--I'm sorry, I just don't remember who the others were. There were three or four.

Mr. SPECTER. What action was being taken with respect to Governor Connally upon your arrival there?

Dr. HUNT. They were placing chest tubes, as a matter of fact, they had one in and were putting the other one in, and were--they had an I.V. going, I believe someone had done a cutdown, and they were checking other wounds. He had a wound on his arm and another wound down on his leg, I think, and that was about it--preparing to take him promptly up to surgery.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do on that occasion?

Dr. HUNT. I walked in and Dr. Duke looked up and the first thing I did was to look at the Governor--I took his pulse and he spoke to me and said something, and noted his color.

Mr. SPECTER. What did the Governor say to you?

Dr. HUNT. He said something like, "It hurts," not anything real specific, but he did at least speak, and it was a conscious thought type of thing, so that he was more or less alert, responding, so then I stepped back into the hall and signaled a fellow, a medical student who has been in our department, that is rotating through anesthesia, and I happened to see him just outside the door, and I asked him to please go upstairs and bring me another unit of equipment and then came back in and told Dr. Duke I had sent for equipment, although I didn't believe the Governor was going to need it, and he said that he was very glad that I had and he, too, didn't think he would need it, but he should have it as a standby, and then they brought me a machine and my table down and I stayed with the Governor until he was ready to go upstairs, but he did not require any respiratory aid because he was not that critical.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you participate any further with the treatment of Governor Connally?

Dr. HUNT. When we were ready to go upstairs, I went back to the room where the President was and Dr. Giesecke, who is a staff member from our department, appeared relatively free and I asked him if he would come and go upstairs with the Governor and I came on upstairs in a different route. I didn't go in the elevator with the Governor--Dr. Giesecke went with him, and helped Dr. Giesecke get under way with the surgery.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you go upstairs, by what route?

Dr. HUNT. I don't know--I don't remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other elevator going up to the operating rooms?

Dr. HUNT. Yes; there are four elevators.

Mr. SPECTER. But do those lead from the emergency rooms?

Dr. HUNT. No; you come down this long hallway up to those of the ground floor.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there more than one elevator for the stretcher to go through from the emergency room up to the second floor operating rooms?

Dr. HUNT. Yes; they can--they come up to these.

Mr. SPECTER. What route would they have to take to do this?

Dr. HUNT. They would have to come directly out of the emergency room and down this main hallway to this front bank of elevators.

Mr. SPECTER. That would be a pretty long route, would it not?

Dr. HUNT. Actually, it isn't very long. I don't know in yards or paces even, but there are three elevators there.

Mr. SPECTER. What route did Governor Connally use?

Dr. HUNT. I think they took him by the back elevator, the one that comes down into the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the one they customarily use to take people from the emergency area into the operating room?

Dr. HUNT. Yes; if there is an emergency it goes straight up--they usually use that one.

Mr. SPECTER. You say you went back to President Kennedy's room?

Dr. HUNT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe there at that time?

Dr. HUNT. At that time I did notice, and possibly this was there earlier, I noticed that they had gotten more monitoring equipment in and connected the electronic equipment for monitoring the electrocardiogram.

Mr. SPECTER. At what time did you return to President Kennedy's room?

Dr. HUNT. I don't know--it would probably have been maybe 3 or 4 or 5 minutes from the time I stepped out, because I went across the hall--I didn't know the Governor was there, and someone told me and I went in and just took a brief look at him to sort of size up his condition, and stepped out and sent for my equipment and went back in and stayed until they brought my equipment. It would have been a little longer than 4 or 5 minutes because they had to bring the equipment down the elevator and it had arrived and been there a few minutes--3 or 4 minutes before we were ready to take him upstairs.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was going on in the President's room when you returned there?

Dr. HUNT. Well, there were still a goodly number of people, oh, at least 10 people, possibly there were more--I'm not real sure, but there were still--at that time there were, I know, at least three anesthesiologists in there--Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Akin, and Dr. Giesecke, and I believe Dr. Baxter was in there, and Dr. Perry was still there.

Mr. SPECTER. Were they still working on the President at that time?

Dr. HUNT. Yes, sir; I don't know what they were doing.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay on that occasion?

Dr. HUNT. Just, oh, a minute--just long enough to catch Dr. Giesecke's eye and let him know I was there and going out.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you ever return to the President's room?

Dr. HUNT. No; I don't believe I did--no; I'm sure I didn't, because I came on upstairs with Governor Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you participate then with Governor Connally's operation?

Dr. HUNT. I helped Dr. Giesecke during the induction of anesthesia.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. HUNT. No; I haven't.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any written report of your participation in the care of Governor Connally and President Kennedy?

Dr. HUNT. Not directly. Dr. Giesecke called me one day and said that, I think it was the A.M.A. was here and just wanted to verify my movements for the day, which I told him and he in turn told them that--I did not appear before them.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any written reports yourself?

Dr. HUNT. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any notes of any sort concerning your participation?

Dr. HUNT. None whatsoever.

Mr. SPECTER. Prior to the time the court reporter started to take down the transcript of my questions and your answers, did you and I have a brief discussion about the purpose of this deposition?

Dr. HUNT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And the questions I would ask you?

Dr. HUNT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And is the information which you have provided on the record the same as you told me before the written deposition started?

Dr. HUNT. Elaborated somewhat.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of aid to the Commission in its investigation?

Dr. HUNT. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for appearing, Dr. Hunt.

Dr. HUNT. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DR. KENNETH EVERETT SALYER

The testimony of Dr. Kenneth Everett Salyer was taken at 6:15 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Kenneth Salyer is present in response to an inquiry that he appear to have his deposition taken in connection with the inquiries being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is looking into all facts of the shooting, including the wounds of the President and the care he received at Parkland Hospital.

With that preliminary statement of purpose, Dr. Salyer, will you stand up and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the President's Commission in the course of this deposition will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. SALYER. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had an opportunity to examine the document or the Executive order creating the President's Commission and Rules for the taking of testimony?

Dr. SALYER. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to have your deposition taken today without having the formal three days of written notice, which you have a right to, if you wish?

Dr. SALYER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. You are willing to waive that right, is that right?

Dr. SALYER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. SALYER. Kenneth Everett Salyer.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession?

Dr. SALYER. Physician.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed to practice medicine by the State of Texas?

Dr. SALYER. Yes; I am.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline briefly your educational background, please?

Dr. SALYER. A B.S. degree at the University of Kansas, an M.D. degree at the University of Kansas, and internship at Parkland, and now a first year resident in surgery at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. In what year did you graduate from the University of Kansas Medical School?

Dr. SALYER. 1962.

Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you, Dr. Salyer?

Dr. SALYER. I am 27.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called in to assist in the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. SALYER. Well, for the month of November, as part of our rotation on surgery, I spent that month on neurosurgery, and being on call that day for any emergencies which come in to our emergency room related to neurosurgical problems, we would be called down to the emergency room to see these, and I was upstairs viewing a movie when I heard that the President had arrived and so I thought I should go down to the emergency room and see what the situation was.

Mr. SPECTER. And, upon your arrival at the emergency room, who was present?

Dr. SALYER. Oh, I don't recall--I know that there were a room full of doctors--I could list specific ones that I remember if you would like.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you please?

Dr. SALYER. I don't really think I could give you every one, but I remember Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter, and also Dr. Bob McClelland and Dr. Carrico and Dr. Crenshaw, and I think a Dr. Gene Akin was there also--at that time, when I first came in.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you think of any others?

Dr. SALYER. No; I don't recall any others--there could have been some, there were a lot of people sort of moving in and out. There certainly were a lot of nurses in there at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any of the nurses who were there?

Dr. SALYER. No; I can't.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the President's condition at the time you arrived?

Dr. SALYER. It was critical.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe about him with respect to any wounds he may have sustained?

Dr. SALYER. Well, I observed that he did have some sucking wound of some type on his neck, and that he also had a wound of his right temporal region--these were the two main wounds.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to observe his throat?

Dr. SALYER. No; I really did not. I think there were a lot of people--a lot of doctors more closely around him. I might mention also, I think just right after I came in the room Dr. Clark and Dr. Grossman also arrived.

Mr. SPECTER. Doctor who?

Dr. SALYER. Dr. Grossman, just briefly. He's a neurosurgeon also.

Mr. SPECTER. What is his name?

Dr. SALYER. Dr. Grossman--Bob Grossman. He was just there, I think, briefly.

Mr. SPECTER. How long was he there?

Dr. SALYER. I couldn't say--I'm not sure he came in the room. I know they were together--I cannot say that for sure.

Mr. SPECTER. To what extent did Dr. Crenshaw participate?

Dr. SALYER. Dr. Crenshaw participated about the extent that I did. We were occupied in making sure an I.V. was going and hanging up a bottle of blood.

Mr. SPECTER. Is the--is Dr. Crenshaw a resident?

Dr. SALYER. Yes, he is third-year resident. That's the reason I remember him specifically because we were sort of working there together on that.

Mr. SPECTER. I had asked you a moment ago whether you had an opportunity to observe the condition of the President's throat.

Dr. SALYER. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your answer to that question?

Dr. SALYER. The answer was--there were a lot of doctors standing around, and I didn't really get to observe the nature of the wound in the throat.

Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did you arrive at the emergency room where the President was situated?

Dr. SALYER. I really don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done for the President by way of treatment that you observed?

Dr. SALYER. Well, an adequate airway eventually, of course, some external cardiac massage--he had I.V.'s--intravenous fluids going in a number of sites, and all of the acute measures we administered him.

Mr. SPECTER. I didn't hear you at the end of your answer.

Dr. SALYER. I said--all of the many other measures that we administered--I don't recall specifically some of the other details as far as medications and so forth.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe with respect to the head wound?

Dr. SALYER. I came in on the left side of him and noticed that his major wound seemed to be in his right temporal area, at least from the point of view that I could see him, and other than that--nothing other than he did have a gaping scalp wound--cranial wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Has anyone from the Federal Government talked to you about your observations of this matter?

Dr. SALYER. No one has.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think may be of aid to the President's Commission in its inquiry?

Dr. SALYER. No, I believe not.

Dr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Salyer.

Dr. SALYER. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DR. MARTIN G. WHITE

The testimony of Dr. Martin G. White was taken at 6:35 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Martin White is present in response to a request that he appear to have his deposition taken because he has been identified in prior depositions as being one of the doctors in attendance on President Kennedy.

Dr. White, have you had an opportunity to examine the Executive order creating the Presidential Commission?

Dr. WHITE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you had an opportunity to examine the resolution setting forth the rules for taking depositions?

Dr. WHITE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you willing to have your deposition taken without the 3-day notice to which you have a right under the rules, if you wish to receive formal written notice? And have three days after mailing before you appear to have your deposition taken?

Dr. WHITE. No, I want to have it taken now.

Mr. SPECTER. You are willing to waive that requirement?

Dr. WHITE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you stand up, then, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. WHITE. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. WHITE. Martin G. White.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir?

Dr. WHITE. M.D.--physician.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed in the State of Texas to practice medicine?

Dr. WHITE. In this institution.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your educational background, please?

Dr. WHITE. I have a bachelor of medicine degree from Northwestern University and a master of science degree from Northwestern University and a doctor of medicine degree from Northwestern University.

Mr. SPECTER. How old are you, Doctor?

Dr. WHITE. Twenty-five.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you in attendance when President Kennedy was being treated on November 22, 1963?

Dr. WHITE. I was.

Mr. SPECTER. And what were the circumstances of your being called into the case?

Dr. WHITE. I was the intern assigned to the surgery section of the emergency room on that day and was there when the President's body was brought into the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do in connection with the President's treatment?

Dr. WHITE. I put an intervenous cutdown in the President's right foot.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to observe any of his wounds?

Dr. WHITE. I saw the wound in his head as he was brought into the trauma room where he was treated.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other wounds?

Dr. WHITE. No, I did not see any other.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe specifically a wound in the neck?

Dr. WHITE. I did not look and did not observe any.

Mr. SPECTER. How long were you present while the President was being treated?

Dr. WHITE. I would estimate about 10 to 15 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you leave prior to the time he was pronounced to be dead?

Dr. WHITE. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you leave?

Dr. WHITE. My duties had been completed and there was work elsewhere, with the Governor, to be done.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was present at the time you were there, Dr. White?

Dr. WHITE. As best I can recall, Dr. Carrico and I were the physicians immediately present when the President's body was brought in, plus a number of individuals who accompanied the cart on which his body was lying, and the only individual who I knew in that group was his wife, Mrs. Kennedy.

Mr. SPECTER. And what doctors were present at the time you left the room?

Dr. WHITE. Well, it would be impossible for me to tell you all the people that were there, but I knew Dr. Carrico, Dr. Baxter, Dr. Perry and Dr. Zedelitz, Z-e-d-e-l-i-t-z (spelling)--I know they were there.

Mr. SPECTER. Doctor who--what is his first name?

Dr. WHITE. William Zedelitz.

Mr. SPECTER. To what extent did he participate?

Dr. WHITE. I don't believe that he had any--I don't know what he did other than the fact that when I was doing the cutdown he assisted me by just placing some tape over the catheters we used to do this with.

Mr. SPECTER. Is he an intern as you are?

Dr. WHITE. He is a surgical resident here at this hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Who else was present?

Dr. WHITE. I can't be sure that I saw anyone else, although, as I say--many people were there whose faces I can't recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any of the nurses who were present?

Dr. WHITE. Yes; one of the nurses--there were two there, Jeanette, and her last name--I don't know at the present time, and she is chief nurse in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Doris Nelson?

Dr. WHITE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Jeanette Standridge?

Dr. WHITE. Yes; Jeanette Standridge was the other nurse.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of help to the Commission?

Dr. WHITE. No; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. White for coming.

Dr. WHITE. All right, thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT SHAW

The testimony of Dr. Robert Shaw was taken at 6 p.m., on March 23, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Robert Shaw is present, having responded to a request to have his deposition taken in connection with the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is investigating all facts relating to the medical care of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, and Dr. Shaw has been requested to appear and testify concerning the treatment on Governor Connally.

Dr. Shaw, will you rise and raise your right hand, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission in the course of this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. SHAW. I do.