Chapter XXIII: Part 23

Mr. SAWYER. Later that afternoon one of our colored officer detectives saw this colored man in this crowd across the street and we had previously broadcast a description on, and he took him into custody and sent him immediately down to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BELIN. He gave a statement, is that it?

Mr. SAWYER. This I don't know. I presume he did, but I didn't stop to talk to him or take any information.

I just sent him on down there.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of at this time?

Mr. SAWYER. No.

Mr. BELIN. You spent most of the afternoon out in front of the building there?

Mr. SAWYER. I spent most of the afternoon up until 4 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. I went back down to the City Hall and checked around there to see if anything further I could do, and then I went home.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do on Saturday, the 23d? Anything that has to do with the assassination or the investigation of the Tippit murder?

Mr. SAWYER. No. I happened to be off on Saturday, and I didn't go back down. The boss didn't call me, so I stayed home.

Mr. BELIN. What about Sunday?

Mr. SAWYER. Same thing. In fact, I didn't even hear about the other thing until way late in the afternoon.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information that you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that might be in any way relevant here?

Mr. SAWYER. The only other thing I can remember that I did down there, was when the shooting on Officer Tippit came in, I released half a dozen men to go to Oak Cliff to help with that.

Mr. BELIN. Inspector, is there anything else that you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that is in any way relevant here?

Mr. SAWYER. I can't think of anything.

Mr. BELIN. Sir, we certainly appreciate your cooperation in coming down here.

You have a right, if you would like, after this report is typewritten, to read it and sign it before it is sent to us, or you can waive the reading of it and have it sent to us directly.

It doesn't make a bit of difference to us.

Mr. SAWYER. Whichever you prefer. It doesn't make any difference to me.

I would like to read it.

Mr. BELIN. Why don't we say you read it and sign it, and it will be sent to us.

Mr. SAWYER. Okay.

TESTIMONY OF GERALD DALTON HENSLEE

The testimony of Gerald Dalton Henslee was taken at 4 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, do you want to stand and raise your right hand, please, to be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HENSLEE. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Will you please state your name.

Mr. HENSLEE. Gerald Dalton Henslee.

Mr. BELIN. Your occupation?

Mr. HENSLEE. A police officer.

Mr. BELIN. For what police department?

Mr. HENSLEE. City of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been a police officer?

Mr. HENSLEE. 16 years.

Mr. BELIN. You are a sergeant now?

Mr. HENSLEE. Sergeant.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do before you became a police officer?

Mr. HENSLEE. I was a student in SMU.

Mr. BELIN. At SMU?

Mr. HENSLEE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Prior to that time?

Mr. HENSLEE. I was a dance instructor at the Arthur Murray Dance Studio.

Mr. BELIN. And prior to that?

Mr. HENSLEE. I was in the United States Army.

Mr. BELIN. Honorable discharge, sir?

Mr. HENSLEE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. HENSLEE. 40.

Mr. BELIN. Married?

Mr. HENSLEE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, what were your duties on November 22, 1963?

Mr. HENSLEE. I was supervising the radio dispatcher's office at the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. Could you just describe your duties there as to what they included?

Mr. HENSLEE. Well, in this instance, I was not only supervising the channel 1 radio and the incoming radio calls, but was the police dispatcher for channel 2, covering the special event of the arrival of the President of the United States, President Kennedy.

Mr. BELIN. What were your hours of work that day?

Mr. HENSLEE. My assigned hours?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. HENSLEE. 6:30 until 2 p.m. 6:30 a.m. until 2:30 p.m.

Mr. BELIN. Did you stay on after that?

Mr. HENSLEE. I stayed until about 5:30, as I recall, approximately.

Mr. BELIN. You mentioned channel 2. How many channels do you have?

Mr. HENSLEE. Two channels.

Mr. BELIN. Was channel 2 being used for the motorcade that day?

Mr. HENSLEE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, and ask you to state if you know what this is?

Mr. HENSLEE. Yes. This is a transcript of the radio log of that date.

Mr. BELIN. For what channel?

Mr. HENSLEE. Channel 2.

Mr. BELIN. Covering from?

Mr. HENSLEE. From 10:25 a.m., until 1:53 p.m.

Mr. BELIN. Now I notice on the covering page it says that: "The following was recorded on channel 2, from 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. This report includes information prior to the arrival of the President's plane, progress of the motorcade, the shooting, and the escort to Parkland Hospital. Also included are events concerning the shooting of Officer Tippit."

Mr. HENSLEE. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. Have you attempted to cover all calls that occurred that day or just the calls pertaining to the subject matter that is included in the covering paragraph.

Mr. HENSLEE. Pertaining to the subject matter, to the covering paragraph only.

Mr. BELIN. All right, I hand you what has been marked Sawyer Deposition Exhibit B, and ask you to state if you know what this is?

Mr. HENSLEE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is Sawyer Deposition Exhibit B?

Mr. HENSLEE. That is a transmission pertaining to the shooting of President Kennedy and Officer Tippit on channel 1.

Mr. BELIN. All right, I notice times on Sawyer Deposition Exhibits A and B. Does this mean a time according to your police clock there when an event happened?

Mr. HENSLEE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. For instance, on Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, I see until 12:40 p.m., a number of conversations. Then the next one is 12:43 p.m. Does that mean that all the conversations took place between 12:40 and 12:43 p.m.?

Mr. HENSLEE. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. They took place in the order in which they are listed here?

Mr. HENSLEE. Right. There were so many, we couldn't get the time in after each transmission.

Mr. BELIN. Who prepared Sawyer Deposition Exhibits A and B, if you know?

Mr. HENSLEE. Well, I am pretty sure these are the ones I prepared. They are copies of them.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know from what source they were prepared?

Mr. HENSLEE. They were prepared from the tapes on the channel 1. We have a tape on channel 1, and we have a record on channel 2. Two separate tape records, but they are prepared from those records and tapes.

Mr. BELIN. Under your supervision?

Mr. HENSLEE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I notice numbers here. For instance, I see on Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, the No. 531 often appears. Would that be your call number?

Mr. HENSLEE. This designates the radio dispatcher.

Mr. BELIN. Then I see the number here, No. 1 sometimes appears. Who is that?

Mr. HENSLEE. That is the number assigned to Chief J. E. Curry.

Mr. BELIN. I see a No. 9. Who is No. 9?

Mr. HENSLEE. That is the number assigned to Inspector J. H. Sawyer.

Mr. BELIN. Different numbers are assigned to different people?

Mr. HENSLEE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. If an officer is patrolling a district, does he have the number assigned to a district if he is not a high officer in the Department?

Mr. HENSLEE. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. For instance, I see the No. 78 here. Does that appear to be the number of J. D. Tippit?

Mr. HENSLEE. On that particular day it was.

Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else you can think of, Sergeant, that might be relevant to the investigation into the assassination of the President or the shooting of Officer Tippit?

Mr. HENSLEE. No. The only thing I have is what I observed over the police radio that day. That is all the knowledge I have at all.

Mr. BELIN. All right, sir; we thank you very much for your cooperation.

One other thing, you have the right to read this deposition and sign it before it goes into Washington, or else you can waive the reading and have it go directly to Washington.

Do you have any preference?

Mr. HENSLEE. Yes, I would like to read it before I sign it.

Mr. BELIN. That is all right. It makes no difference to us. And again, we thank you.

Mr. HENSLEE. What else can I do for you?

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM H. SHELLEY

The testimony of William H. Shelley was taken at 4:10 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn?

(Witness complying.)

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give here today will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Sit down and state your name and your address.

Mr. SHELLEY. William Hoyt (spelling) Shelley, 126 South Tatum, Dallas 11.

Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and----

Mr. SHELLEY. I was born at Gunter, Tex.

Mr. BALL. What is your education?

Mr. SHELLEY. High school.

Mr. BALL. What have you been doing since then?

Mr. SHELLEY. I worked in defense plants a little bit during the war and started working at the Texas School Book Depository October 29, 1945.

Mr. BALL. (After leaving room for last answer, Mr. Ball returns.) Did you tell her all about yourself?

Mr. SHELLEY. You wanted to know when I was born.

Mr. BALL. You told us that, and you had your high school education?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work have you done since then?

Mr. SHELLEY. I've told her.

Mr. BALL. How long have you worked at Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. SHELLEY. She already has it, October 29, 1945.

Mr. BALL. October 29, 1945--steady since that date?

Mr. SHELLEY. Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL. In November 1963, what was your job down there?

Mr. SHELLEY. Well, I am manager of the miscellaneous department and have been for several years.

Mr. BALL. Who is your immediate superior?

Mr. SHELLEY. Roy S. Truly.

Mr. BALL. What is his job?

Mr. SHELLEY. He is superintendent of the place.

Mr. BALL. Did you know Lee Oswald?

Mr. SHELLEY. He worked for me.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work did he do for you?

Mr. SHELLEY. He did good work.

Mr. BALL. What?

Mr. SHELLEY. He did good work.

Mr. BALL. What was it?

Mr. SHELLEY. Order filling.

Mr. BALL. As an order filler did he have access to any more than one floor?

Mr. SHELLEY. Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL. How many floors?

Mr. SHELLEY. Just about any of them outside the offices.

Mr. BALL. Were there certain floors that he worked more upon which he worked more frequently than other floors?

Mr. SHELLEY. The first floor is where all the order filling is done; the 5th, 6th, 7th floor are used for storage and when they need stock on the first floor anybody goes up and gets it.

Mr. BALL. So he would work mostly on the first floor and sometimes on 5, 6, and 7, is that what you mean?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him?

Mr. SHELLEY. Not too much; he wasn't too talkative. If I had something I wanted him to do, I would tell him and he usually did it.

Mr. BALL. His work was satisfactory?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, did you see him come to work that morning?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, he was at work when I got there already filling orders.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him from time to time during that day?

Mr. SHELLEY. I am sure I did. I do remember seeing him when I came down to eat lunch about 10 to 12.

Mr. BALL. Where had you been working?

Mr. SHELLEY. I had been on the sixth floor with the boys laying that floor that morning.

Mr. BALL. What time did you go down and eat lunch?

Mr. SHELLEY. It was around 10 'til.

Mr. BALL. Did you eat your lunch?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, I started eating.

Mr. BALL. Where did you start eating it?

Mr. SHELLEY. In my office next to Mr. Truly's and I ate part of it which I do usually and finish up later on in the day but I went outside then to the front.

Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the front?

Mr. SHELLEY. Oh, several people were out there waiting to watch the motorcade and I went out to join them.

Mr. BALL. And who was out there?

Mr. SHELLEY. Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards.

Mr. BALL. You were standing where?

Mr. SHELLEY. Just outside the glass doors there.

Mr. BALL. That would be on the top landing of the entrance?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the motorcade pass?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear?

Mr. SHELLEY. Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together.

Mr. BALL. And then?

Mr. SHELLEY. I didn't think anything about it.

Mr. BALL. What did it sound like to you?

Mr. SHELLEY. Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn't real loud.

Mr. BALL. What happened; what did you do then?

Mr. SHELLEY. I didn't do anything for a minute.

Mr. BALL. What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound?

Mr. SHELLEY. Sounded like it came from the west.

Mr. BALL. It sounded like it came from the west?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then what happened?

Mr. SHELLEY. Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.

Mr. BALL. Across the street, you mean directly south?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. SHELLEY. That little, old side street runs in front of our building and Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. It dead ends?

Mr. SHELLEY. There's concrete between the two streets.

Mr. BALL. Elm Street dead ends there just beyond the building, doesn't it?

Mr. SHELLEY. Well, that's also Elm that goes under the triple underpass.

Mr. BALL. That is Elm that goes under the triple underpass?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You went to the concrete between the two Elm Streets?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, where they split.

Mr. BALL. You went out there and then what did you do?

Mr. SHELLEY. Well, officers started running down to the railroad yards and Billy and I walked down that way.

Mr. BALL. How did you get down that way; what course did you take?

Mr. SHELLEY. We walked down the middle of the little street.

Mr. BALL. The dead-end street?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.

Mr. BALL. While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY. It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.

Mr. BALL. She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Going to watch the rest of the parade were you?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The Vice President hadn't gone by, had he, by your place?

Mr. SHELLEY. I don't know. I didn't recognize him. I did recognize Mr. Kennedy and his suntan I had been hearing about.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to see Truly?

Mr. SHELLEY. We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.

Mr. BALL. And Truly?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see them go into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY. No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.

Mr. BALL. Were they moving at the time, walking or running?

Mr. SHELLEY. Well, they were moving, yes.

Mr. BALL. Were they running?

Mr. SHELLEY. That, I couldn't swear to; there were so many people around.

Mr. BALL. What did you and Billy Lovelady do?

Mr. SHELLEY. We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.

Mr. BALL. At the west end?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.

Mr. BALL. When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?

Mr. SHELLEY. I saw Eddie Piper.

Mr. BALL. What was he doing?

Mr. SHELLEY. He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.

Mr. BALL. Of the first floor of the building?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who else did you see?

Mr. SHELLEY. That's all we saw immediately.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Vickie Adams?

Mr. SHELLEY. I saw her that day but I don't remember where I saw her.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember whether you saw her when you came back?

Mr. SHELLEY. It was after we entered the building.

Mr. BALL. You think you did see her after you entered the building?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; I thought it was on the fourth floor awhile after that.

Mr. BALL. Now, did the police come into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; they started coming in pretty fast.

Mr. BALL. Did you go with them any place?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors.

Mr. BALL. Did you go up on the sixth floor?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you there when they found anything up there?

Mr. SHELLEY. I was, I believe I was on the sixth floor when they found the gun but we were searching all parts of that floor.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you find any chicken bones up there or see any?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, I went up later on that day; I believe after we had gotten back from City Hall with someone, I don't remember who it was, one of the officers and they got them.

Mr. BALL. They did what?

Mr. SHELLEY. They got the bones.

Mr. BALL. Where were they?

Mr. SHELLEY. They were on the third--yeah, it would be the third window from the southeast corner.

Mr. BALL. And were they in a sack?

Mr. SHELLEY. Laying on a sack.

Mr. BALL. Laying on a sack.

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; with a coke bottle sitting in the window.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any other chicken bones anyplace around there?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; that's all.

Mr. BALL. That's the only ones?

Mr. SHELLEY. That's all.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody eating fried chicken on that floor that morning?

Mr. SHELLEY. At one time I think I said I did but Charles Givens was the guy that was eating and he was further on over toward the west side and he was eating a sandwich so he says.

Mr. BALL. Now you say that you thought that you had seen someone had eaten fried chicken that morning?

Mr. SHELLEY. I thought I had; those colored boys are always eating chicken.

Mr. BALL. Do you think you did or do you know?

Mr. SHELLEY. I asked Charles Givens whether it was him that was eating and he said it was a sandwich.

Mr. BALL. Was that before you went down for lunch?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; it was pretty early in the morning, about 9:30.

Mr. BALL. Where was it?

Mr. SHELLEY. It was two-thirds across the building toward the west because I didn't put plywood over there and he didn't get too far from where we were actually working.

Mr. BALL. After you heard these noises you said sounded like firecrackers this girl came up and said the President was shot?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then you went out across Elm?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, to the divider.

Mr. BALL. Between the two Elm Streets?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The one street dead ends and the other street that goes on down under the viaduct?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you run out to the point or walk out?

Mr. SHELLEY. I believe we trotted out there.

Mr. BALL. Did you stay very long?

Mr. SHELLEY. Oh, it wasn't very long.

Mr. BALL. How long?

Mr. SHELLEY. Maybe a minute or two.

Mr. BALL. And that's the place you saw Truly and Baker, you say, going into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Then you went down the Elm Street that dead ends to the first railroad track?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That's about what distance?

Mr. SHELLEY. Approximately 100 yards.

Mr. BALL. Did you trot, run or walk?

Mr. SHELLEY. We were walking but it was a pretty fast walk.

Mr. BALL. Did you stay there any length of time?

Mr. SHELLEY. Not very long.

Mr. BALL. How long would you say?

Mr. SHELLEY. I wouldn't say over a minute or minute and a half.

Mr. BALL. Then you went back to the building?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you trot or run back to the building?

Mr. SHELLEY. We just walked back; took our good, old easy time more or less.

Mr. BALL. Then you went into the west end?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Vickie Adams after you came into the building and did you see her on the first floor?

Mr. SHELLEY. I sure don't remember.

Mr. BALL. You don't.

Mr. SHELLEY. No.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald use a clipboard?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On which he kept his orders?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is it a clipboard you gave him to use or one----

Mr. SHELLEY. It's one he picked up.

Mr. BALL. Picked up where?

Mr. SHELLEY. Just laying around.

Mr. BALL. There are clipboards that the order fillers use there?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yeah, some of them are on bakelite and some we just use a clip and maybe a piece of cardboard.

Mr. BALL. Did he use the same one at all times?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; as far as I know.

Mr. BALL. Now at a later time do you remember a clipboard being found?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who found it?

Mr. SHELLEY. Frankie Kaiser.

Mr. BALL. Where did he find it?

Mr. SHELLEY. He found it on the sixth floor in the corner of the stairway.

Mr. BALL. Did he show you the place?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Point it out to you?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; so I invited Mr. Pinkston----

Mr. BALL. Mr. who?

Mr. SHELLEY. Pinkston of the FBI.

Mr. BALL. Did he come out and get the clipboard?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; he got it.

Mr. BALL. But Frankie Kaiser pointed it out to you, did he?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you called the FBI and pointed it out to him?

Mr. SHELLEY. He was down there at the time and I told him about it and he and Frankie and I went up and got it.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what date?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; that, I sure couldn't tell you. It was the following week though, I am pretty sure.

Mr. BALL. You mean after the 22d, the following, you say, the 22d of November?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you examine that clipboard?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you examine it to see whether or not there was on the clipboard any orders?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Unfilled orders?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; there were some invoices on it.

Mr. BALL. Were you able to identify those invoices and state to whom they had been assigned to fill?

Mr. SHELLEY. They were Scott, Foresman invoices.

Mr. BALL. Scott, Foresman invoices?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; and he filled mostly Scott, Foresman orders.

Mr. BALL. Who is "he"?

Mr. SHELLEY. Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Oswald filled mostly Scott, Foresman orders?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That is Foresman [spelling]?

Mr. SHELLEY. Foresman [spelling].

Mr. BALL. Was there any other order filler who filled Scott, Foresman invoices?

Mr. SHELLEY. Any of the other boys would if they ran out of other publishers' orders. When I get those orders, I sort them according to publishers and during rush season like that, usually, have one guy sticking as close to one publisher as he can because skipping back and forth you have different codes and everything and it is confusing to them.

Mr. BALL. So, in the morning would you have assigned all Scott, Foresman to Oswald on that Friday morning?

Mr. SHELLEY. He already had the orders and was working when I got there.

Mr. BALL. He had?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who would determine what orders they would get?

Mr. SHELLEY. When we run out of orders they get to one of the boxes and get orders for Scott, Foresman. He had been trained for Scott, Foresman.

Mr. BALL. Would orders be assigned the day before?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; we don't definitely assign them to anyone. The boys know what they can fill best and as long as they are putting the work out----

Mr. BALL. I want to know how a man working on Scott, Foresman--suppose Oswald came to work on Friday morning, tell me what routine he would follow, where he would get the orders he was to fill.

Mr. SHELLEY. He would go over to the order desk and get them out of a box marked Scott, Foresman.

Mr. BALL. They would have Scott, Foresman on it?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is he the only one that in the morning when he came to work would get the orders out of the box marked Scott, Foresman?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; if there wasn't any orders in any of the other boxes any other order filler would take them.

Mr. BALL. Do you know whether or not he was filling Scott, Foresman orders that day?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; not for sure.

Mr. BALL. Do you know whether anybody else was filling Scott, Foresman orders that day?

Mr. SHELLEY. I am sure they were; that's our biggest publishers; there's more of them.

Mr. BALL. Then you believe others besides Oswald were filling Scott, Foresman orders that day?

Mr. SHELLEY. Probably were.

Mr. BALL. Is there any way you can determine what order filler had that clipboard?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; it's one that looked like the one he had used.

Mr. BALL. It did look like the one he had used?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. There were how many unfilled orders on that clipboard when it was found?

Mr. SHELLEY. Two or three, best I remember.

Mr. BALL. Did you keep a list of them?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody make a list of them?

Mr. SHELLEY. Not unless Mr. Pinkston did.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Pinkston of the FBI?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; he called in about the thing and in a little while he released it and said go ahead and fill the orders which we did because they were several days old.

Mr. BALL. You mean those orders that were on that clipboard had never been filled?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. So you went ahead and filled them?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How do you spell his name--Pinkston?

Mr. SHELLEY. I don't know how to spell it. Mr. Pinkston is all I know.

Mr. BALL. Pinkston, okay. I think that's all, Mr. Shelley. Thanks very much. This will be written up and you can come down and read it and sign it or we can waive signature; which would you rather do?

Mr. SHELLEY. I suppose it doesn't make any difference. What are the others doing?

Mr. BALL. Some waived, some insist on reading it; which would you rather do?

Mr. SHELLEY. I would kind of like to see it for curiosity.

Mr. BALL. Come down and sign it, all right. Where was the clipboard found?

Mr. SHELLEY. On the sixth floor in the far corner.

Mr. BALL. Which corner?

Mr. SHELLEY. By the stairway.

Mr. BALL. That would be the northwest?

Mr. SHELLEY. Northwest, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. All right, fine. Thank you very much, Mr. Shelley.

TESTIMONY OF NAT A. PINKSTON

The testimony of Nat A. Pinkston was taken at 12:10 p.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PINKSTON. I do.

Mr. BALL. State your name, please.

Mr. PINKSTON. Nat A. Pinkston.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. PINKSTON. I'm a Special Agent with the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Mr. BALL. Have you had your deposition taken before this proceeding?

Mr. PINKSTON. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Your address is what?

Mr. PINKSTON. My residence address is 2106 Van Cleave Drive, Dallas.

Mr. BALL. And how long have you been a Special Agent for the Federal Bureau of Investigation?

Mr. PINKSTON. Be 24 years next month.

Mr. BALL. And you are assigned to what office?

Mr. PINKSTON. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Now, you did not receive a letter from the Commission asking you to testify, did you?

Mr. PINKSTON. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were asked to come over here by Mr. Shanklin?

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. At my request, wasn't it?

Mr. PINKSTON. Well, I----

Mr. BALL. Anyway, you were asked to come over here by Mr. Shanklin and he advised you that your deposition would be taken at that time?

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The deposition taken in the course of an investigation by the Commission to investigate the facts concerning the circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, and I am a staff officer. My name is Joseph A. Ball. I am authorized to administer the oath to you and to ask you certain questions concerning some matters which you do have knowledge of.

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You are willing to testify, are you not?

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In the course of your investigation, were you called to the Texas School Book Depository sometimes around the 2d of December 1963?

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And who asked you to come down there?

Mr. PINKSTON. I was instructed by one of my supervisors to conduct an investigation there on that date.

Mr. BALL. On that date?

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a fellow by the name of Frankie Kaiser?

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And Roy Truly?

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did they tell you when you came down there?

Mr. PINKSTON. To the best of my recollection I was there waiting to see Mr. Truly. He was somewhere else in the building, and I was waiting for him on the occasion in question. Frankie Kaiser came down the stairs and said that he had found something on the sixth floor. I didn't--I then accompanied him back to the sixth floor where he pointed out on the floor near the entrance to the stair well, a clipboard with some orders on it, and--pardon me a second, do you want me to testify to what Kaiser told me, which is hearsay----

Mr. BALL. That is all right, but Kaiser told you that when you were downstairs, that something--didn't he? When he was--did Kaiser come downstairs?

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes; Kaiser came downstairs and took me back upstairs with him and pointed out the clipboard which he had left on the floor.

Mr. BALL. Did he say he had left it there?

Mr. PINKSTON. He had seen it there and did not bother it.

Mr. BALL. I see.

Mr. PINKSTON. He did not put it there.

Mr. BALL. I see. Kaiser told you and you went upstairs and Kaiser pointed out the clipboard?

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. First, the location of the clipboard.

Mr. PINKSTON. The clipboard was generally in the northwest corner of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. It was on the floor behind the books, against the wall of the stair well.

Mr. BALL. There were some book cartons in front of it, were there?

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, did Frankie Kaiser say something? That is hearsay, but I would like to hear what it was.

Mr. PINKSTON. He told me this clipboard was the one that he had made, and had given to Oswald when Oswald went to work at the School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. Did you examine the clipboard?

Mr. PINKSTON. I did, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did it have anybody's name on it?

Mr. PINKSTON. It had quite a bit of scribbling on it, and I believe--well, I am not in a position to say right now exactly what it had on it other than some orders.

Mr. BALL. It did have some orders on it?

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did you examine the orders?

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me the date of the orders and the general description of the orders?

Mr. PINKSTON. Three orders on this clipboard. Each order was dated November 22d. The first was an order from Mrs. Hazel Carroll of the Reading Clinic, SMU, for one Parliamentary Procedure at $1.40. Was published by Scott, Foresman & Co.

And this invoice bore No. 2454. The second one was an order from Dallas Independent School District from Mr. M. J. Morton, purchasing agent, at the School Administration Building, 3700 Ross Avenue, Dallas, Tex., for 10 ERS, Basic Reading Skills, for high schools, revised, at $1.12, or total of $11.20. Published by Scott, Foresman & Co.

The Invoice was No. 6057.

The third order was an order to be sent to Mr. M. K. Baker, Junior High School, Reynosa, New Mex., for one TE Basic Reading Skills. J. H. S. use. No charge. Sent at the request of Miss Mary Williams. Publisher; Scott, Foresman & Co., invoice 8291.

Each of these orders, as I say, were dated November 22, 1963.

Mr. BALL. What did you do when you--with the orders after you made these notations?

Mr. PINKSTON. I turned them over to Mr. Truly. He desired to fill the orders.

Mr. BALL. What did you do with the clipboard?

Mr. PINKSTON. I returned the clipboard to my office and made an exhibit of it, as I recall.

Mr. BALL. Is it still an exhibit? It is an FBI exhibit?

Mr. PINKSTON. I believe so.

Mr. BALL. In the possession of the FBI?

Mr. PINKSTON. I haven't seen it since then.

Mr. BALL. Will you try to determine if you still have that as an exhibit in your office, or in Washington?

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Now, this will be written up and will be submitted to you for your signature, or you can waive your signature.

Mr. PINKSTON. I would like to----

Mr. BALL. See it and read it?

Mr. PINKSTON. See it and read it and sign it.

Mr. BALL. You will be notified to come to this office and read it and sign it.

(After the conclusion of the deposition and at 1 o'clock, p.m., on the same day as the taking of the deposition, Mr. Nat A. Pinkston appeared before me, Iris Leonard, stating that he wished the following statement to be incorporated with his deposition: "After reviewing my records, I am now able to state definitely that after examining the clipboard and the orders thereon, I left them at the Texas School Book Depository with Mr. Truly. The clipboard was picked up by another FBI agent at a later time and was made an exhibit.")

TESTIMONY OF BILLY NOLAN LOVELADY

The testimony of Billy Nolan Lovelady was taken at 3:50 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you please stand, hold up your right hand and be sworn?

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. LOVELADY. I do.

Mr. BALL. State your name, please.

Mr. LOVELADY. Billy Nolan Lovelady.

Mr. BALL. You received a letter from the Commission, didn't you?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You know the purpose of the investigation?

Mr. LOVELADY. Right.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and what your education was and your experience, in general?

Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I was born at Myrtle Springs, Tex., 1937, February 19, and lived there for about 20 years until I went into the service and I did nursery work and that's about all there is, farm work down there and nursery and stuff like that.

Mr. BALL. When did you go to work for Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. LOVELADY. December 16, 1961, I believe it was.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do there?

Mr. LOVELADY. Well, they hired me when I went there as a truck driver, drove truck until another job as stockman was open, taking care of the stock that comes in, see that it's put in the right place.

Mr. BALL. Which one of the buildings do you work in?

Mr. LOVELADY. At the one at 411 Elm.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, where were you working?

Mr. LOVELADY. At that morning, you mean?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. LOVELADY. I was working on the sixth floor putting--we was putting down that flooring.

Mr. BALL. Who were you working with?

Mr. LOVELADY. Well, there was Bonnie Ray Williams and Danny Arce and Slim, Charles Givens; we call him Slim, and let me see, well Mr. Shelley would come up every once in while, check on us. He wasn't workin' with us but he would come up see how we gettin' along.

Mr. BALL. That's Mr. Shelley?

Mr. LOVELADY. Mr. Bill Shelley.

Mr. BALL. What is his position with Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. LOVELADY. He would be under Mr. R. S. Truly.

Mr. BALL. Is he a foreman?

Mr. LOVELADY. I guess you would call it that. He takes care of most things down there, paperwork and stuff like that.

Mr. BALL. Did you know Lee Oswald?

Mr. LOVELADY. Well just to work with him.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him?

Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I never did carry on any long conversations or anything like that, maybe, you know, "Hello," or I asked him a few times how his little baby was getting along; he told me it was doing fine.

Mr. BALL. Where did Oswald work in the building?

Mr. LOVELADY. Well, he had access to all the building just like I do.

Mr. BALL. All floors?

Mr. LOVELADY. All floors.

Mr. BALL. Any floor?

Mr. LOVELADY. Any floor; I mean he didn't have no business in the office. I mean, or to if, say, like Mr. Truly would say "Okay, Lee, go up and give me a certain something from the office," he could go up there.

Mr. BALL. Did he work on one floor more than any other?

Mr. LOVELADY. No; I wouldn't say because there's different publishers on each order and he has to go to different floors to get books.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald ever eat lunch with you?

Mr. LOVELADY. He ate two or three times in that little domino room, but not by himself, with the rest of the boys.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him come to work that morning?

Mr. LOVELADY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him carry a sack or anything in his hand?

Mr. LOVELADY. No, sir; just lunch.

Mr. BALL. Did he usually carry his lunch or did he buy his lunch?

Mr. LOVELADY. Most of the time he had fruit and stuff like that, grapes and raisins, stuff like that I noticed a few times he had.

Mr. BALL. What time did you quit work that day or knock off for lunch that day?

Mr. LOVELADY. Same time, 12.

Mr. BALL. A little before 12?

Mr. LOVELADY. Well, we came down at 10 minutes til to wash up and get ready for it.

Mr. BALL. Did you come down the elevator?

Mr. LOVELADY. Right.

Mr. BALL. Who did you go down with?

Mr. LOVELADY. Let me see, I think it was Bonnie Ray Williams on the side I was; I believe so.

Mr. BALL. Were you having a race with the other boys?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir; sure was.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anything or hear anything of Oswald on the way down?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes; he was on the opposite side of the elevator I was on. I heard him holler to one of the boys to stop, he wanted the elevator. They said, "No; we're going down to lunch," and closed the gate I was on and come down and got ready to watch the President come by or got ready to go to lunch, and that's the last I heard of him.

Mr. BALL. You were on the west elevator?

Mr. LOVELADY. Right.

Mr. BALL. Oswald was standing in front of the east elevator?

Mr. LOVELADY. East, on back, the elevator back.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him?

Mr. LOVELADY. No; I didn't; I just heard his voice because--where those slats are in back of the elevator.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again that day?

Mr. LOVELADY. No.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do?

Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.

Mr. BALL. Upstairs on what floor?

Mr. LOVELADY. That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.

Mr. BALL. You ate your lunch on the steps?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who was with you?

Mr. LOVELADY. Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me----

Mr. BALL. What was that last name?

Mr. LOVELADY. Stanton.

Mr. BALL. What is the first name?

Mr. LOVELADY. Bill Shelley.

Mr. BALL. And Stanton's first name?

Mr. LOVELADY. Miss Sarah Stanton.

Mr. BALL. Did you stay on the steps?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were you there when the President's motorcade went by?

Mr. LOVELADY. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir; sure did.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear?

Mr. LOVELADY. I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.

Mr. BALL. Who was this girl?

Mr. LOVELADY. Gloria Calvary.

Mr. BALL. Gloria Calvary?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where does she work?

Mr. LOVELADY. Southwestern Publishing Co.

Mr. BALL. Where was the direction of the sound?

Mr. LOVELADY. Right there around that concrete little deal on that knoll.

Mr. BALL. That's where it sounded to you?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir; to my right. I was standing as you are going down the steps, I was standing on the right, sounded like it was in that area.

Mr. BALL. From the underpass area?

Mr. LOVELADY. Between the underpass and the building right on that knoll.

Mr. BALL. I have got a picture here, Commission Exhibit 369. Are you on that picture?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Take a pen or pencil and mark an arrow where you are.

Mr. LOVELADY. Where I thought the shots are?

Mr. BALL. No; you in the picture.

Mr. LOVELADY. Oh, here (indicating).

Mr. BALL. Draw an arrow down to that; do it in the dark. You got an arrow in the dark and one in the white pointing toward you. Where were you when the picture was taken?

Mr. LOVELADY. Right there at the entrance of the building standing on the top of the step, would be here (indicating).

Mr. BALL. You were standing on which step?

Mr. LOVELADY. It would be your top level.

Mr. BALL. The top step you were standing there?

Mr. LOVELADY. Right.

Mr. BALL. Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?

Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.

Mr. BALL. First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with.

Mr. LOVELADY. Mr. Shelley.

Mr. BALL. Shelley and you went down how far?

Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes----

Mr. BALL. You went down the dead end on Elm?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And down to the first tracks?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anything there?

Mr. LOVELADY. No sir; well, just people running.

Mr. BALL. That's all?

Mr. LOVELADY. And hollerin.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to go down there?

Mr. LOVELADY. I don't know, because everybody was running from that way and naturally, I guess----

Mr. BALL. They were running from that way or toward that way?

Mr. LOVELADY. Toward that way; everybody thought it was coming from that direction.

Mr. BALL. By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?

Mr. LOVELADY. As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15, maybe 25, steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.

Mr. BALL. How many steps?

Mr. LOVELADY. Twenty, 25.

Mr. BALL. Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?

Mr. LOVELADY. Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. LOVELADY. Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building.

Mr. BALL. And enter from the rear?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir; sure did.

Mr. BALL. You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?

Mr. LOVELADY. Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.

Mr. BALL. Three minutes is a long time.

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, it's--I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could.

Mr. BALL. Had people started to run?

Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps.

Mr. BALL. Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you run or walk?

Mr. LOVELADY. Medium trotting or fast walk.

Mr. BALL. A fast walk?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building?

Mr. LOVELADY. Somebody hollered and I looked.

Mr. BALL. You turned around and looked?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building?

Mr. LOVELADY. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you go in through the docks, the wide open door or did you go in the ordinary small door?

Mr. LOVELADY. You know where we park our trucks--that door; we have a little door.

Mr. BALL. That is where you went in, that little door?

Mr. LOVELADY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. That would be the north end of the building?

Mr. LOVELADY. That would be the west end, wouldn't it?

Mr. BALL. Is it the one right off Houston Street?

Mr. LOVELADY. No; you are thinking about another dock.

Mr. BALL. I am?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes; we have two.

Mr. BALL. Do you have a dock on the west side and one on the north side of the building?

Mr. LOVELADY. East, and well, it would be east and west but you enter it from the south side.

Mr. BALL. Now, the south side----

Mr. LOVELADY. Elm Street is that little dead-end street.

Mr. BALL. That's south.

Mr. LOVELADY. I drive my truck here (indicating) but we came in from this direction; that would have to be west.

Mr. BALL. You came into the building from the west side?

Mr. LOVELADY. Right.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go into the building?

Mr. LOVELADY. Through that, those raised-up doors.

Mr. BALL. Through the raised-up doors?

Mr. LOVELADY. Through that double door that we in the morning when we get there we raised. There's a fire door and they have two wooden doors between it.

Mr. BALL. You came in through the first floor?

Mr. LOVELADY. Right.

Mr. BALL. Who did you see in the first floor?

Mr. LOVELADY. I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.

Mr. BALL. Who is Vickie?

Mr. LOVELADY. The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.

Mr. BALL. What is her full name?

Mr. LOVELADY. I wouldn't know.

Mr. BALL. Vickie Adams?

Mr. LOVELADY. I believe so.

Mr. BALL. Would you say it was Vickie you saw?

Mr. LOVELADY. I couldn't swear.

Mr. BALL. Where was the girl?