Chapter XVI: Part 16

Mrs. HILL. That's right. I ran up there and told him we had to leave. She had been impressing upon me for an hour and a half--we hadn't even gone down to see the President that day--we had been doing other things and we got down there and we just decided we would stay, but she had been impressing upon me for an hour and a half, the whole time we had been there, that we had to beat the traffic out of there, and she knows her way around real well, so I knew she could get out and we could beat the traffic, and we were just going to run for the car as fast as we could. It was parked up here on Houston. We were going to run and get out of there before the people started milling around so we wouldn't be in that traffic, and I don't know--we had been talking about it so long and she had drilled me so much, that we must get out of here, and when I came back and I found her crying and him standing there holding her camera, and holding her, I mean holding her by the arm and her camera, and telling her she had to go with him, I started trying to shake his hand loose and grab the camera and telling him that "No, we wouldn't go, we had to leave," and I guess by that time I was beginning--until then I have no conscious feeling of any scaredness or excitement or anything. I mean, you know, it is just like something that's passing in front of you, and I mean, I wasn't worried or upset in any way until I got back there and then I had a sense of urgency. I just knew I wanted to get out of there and all I could think of--and I don't think the full impact of all that had happened really hit me then, because I was just wanting to get out of there and to get away and he kept telling me--he insisted we go with him and he just practically ran us, and he got--they were throwing up a police net around that building at the time, and he just practically ran us up to the court house, I guess it is, and put us in this little room and I don't know why we were so dumb that day unless it was just the sequence of events, that everything was just happening so fast we really didn't even think, but we couldn't leave. He kept standing in front of the door and he would let a cameraman in or someone to interview us and they were shooting things in our faces, and he wouldn't let us out.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was interviewing you--newspaper reporters?

Mrs. HILL. Newspaper reporters and radio and TV people and a man from--a man named Coker John, or John Coker.

Mr. SPECTER. From where?

Mrs. HILL. As I get it, he is a sort of freelance writer, and I think he was on an assignment then. He came out--I'm not sure--I thought it was for Life or Post, but he came in there and he was shooting pictures for--I think he was shooting them for TV, but he came out to the house about 2 weeks later with this bunch of men, about four of them, three or four came out, and that's the second time I saw him, because he said, "You remember me, I saw you in the pressroom that day."

Mr. SPECTER. Is that Miss Hill or Mrs. Hill?

Mrs. HILL. It is Mrs. Hill, and he said "I saw you in the pressroom that day," and I said, "Yes." I remembered him because I saw him more than any--now, I don't remember where I am here.

Mr. SPECTER. You were telling me about what happened to you at the county courthouse, and then you digressed from that to tell me about John coming to see you in your home.

Let's go back to the county courthouse and let me ask you if you gave an affidavit to the sheriff that day?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you talk to anybody from the Federal Government that day?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you talk to?

Mrs. HILL. I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. What agency was the man from, if you know?

Mrs. HILL. Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. How many times have you talked to somebody from the Secret Service in this case altogether?

Mrs. HILL. I would say the only time I talked to the Secret Service men was when I was down at the courthouse that afternoon, just before they let us leave, and I think--now, we officially sat down and supposedly were giving a story to the Secret Service men.

Mr. SPECTER. And, did they write down what you were telling them?

Mrs. HILL. I don't think they did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign anything?

Mrs. HILL. Oh, well, I signed my statement that I made over in the sheriff's office.

Mr. SPECTER. Then, how about for the Secret Service men, did you sign anything?

Mrs. HILL. No, I don't think we signed anything over there, because they just took us in a little room----

Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell the Secret Service men?

Mrs. HILL. As well as I remember, we talked to so many that day.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, did you tell everybody about the same thing you have told me here today?

Mrs. HILL. Yes, except that I didn't go into that stuff with the shots because no one ever asked me, no one ever detailed it like that, but they were interested that day in those pictures and they got them all from us.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk with the Secret Service men on any occasion after the events on November 22?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever talked to anybody else from the Federal Government?

Mrs. HILL. The FBI men.

Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions?

Mrs. HILL. Several.

Mr. SPECTER. How many, if you remember?

Mrs. HILL. I don't recall--I was called two or three times at least after that.

Mr. SPECTER. Called on the telephone?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. You discussed the matter over the phone with somebody who said he was from the FBI?

Mrs. HILL. No; I had that pulled on me and I didn't want to talk until I called back down to check to see.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to somebody from the FBI when you called them back?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Over the phone?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions?

Mrs. HILL. I think two or three times is all I had.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you ever interviewed in person by the FBI?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions?

Mrs. HILL. After that day, I believe only once.

Mr. SPECTER. And about when was that?

Mrs. HILL. Well, it was the other day after I received this letter--no; before I received this letter, and this was last Tuesday, I think, and they came in reference to what Mark Lane had told the Warren Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did they ask you when they came to see you last Tuesday, that would be a week ago today or the 16th--or the 17th?

Mrs. HILL. They just had me start over with this story again and they had Mr. Lane's copy and they asked me, you know, if I had said these things and, I read it and told them that I had said it.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Mr. Lane's version accurate?

Mrs. HILL. It was accurate in that he took down what I said. It was inaccurate in that he had taken it out of context, and the questions he asked me weren't there, nor were they given. I can see how he could have made what he made out of my statements.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you talk to Mr. Lane?

Mrs. HILL. I talked to him about--approximately 4 or 6 weeks ago.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did that take place?

Mrs. HILL. At New York.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he call you on the telephone?

Mrs. HILL. That's right, and he didn't tell me he was recording this at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever talk to Mark Lane in person?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever sign an affidavit for him?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. The only contact you had with him was this one telephone conversation?

Mrs. HILL. That's right, and he said he was coming to Dallas the next week and would I talk with him, I said, I told him then--that I guessed so. I didn't know. I mean, because I didn't fully realize what he was doing in this case.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you tell him over the telephone?

Mrs. HILL. I told him the same story I told you, with the exception that he went further into the day's activities at the police station, and at the courthouse.

Mr. SPECTER. What else did you tell him about your day's activities at the courthouse?

Mrs. HILL. Well, he asked me, you know, he just asked me a lot of questions about that, and I told him that we didn't know that we were in a pressroom. We just knew we were in a courthouse and with police. I mean, this was to us a police station.

Mr. SPECTER. Tell me all the things that you told him, in addition to those which you have already told me, that is, tell me all the things you told Mr. Lane, in addition to that you have already testified about.

Mrs. HILL. I will, but do you realize I have had to go over this so many times that I don't know who I have told which part to? I really don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, I'll bear that in mind, but do the best you can in telling me all the things you told Mark Lane.

Mrs. HILL. Can't you just read my statement?

Mr. SPECTER. Feel free to smoke--just relax.

Mrs. HILL. I would except, I don't have one.

Mr. SPECTER. Just relax if you can.

Mrs. HILL. All right, if I can.

Mr. SPECTER. Off the record.

Let the record show that we were taking a brief recess to get the witness a cup of coffee so that she may be more relaxed. May the record show that we have just obtained some coffee and we are proceeding.

When we broke for the coffee, I had asked you to tell me all the things you told Mark Lane other than those which you have already testified about.

Mrs. HILL. Before we go into that--I do want to have you--because I hope that by this time I am through with it, but I do want to tell you about a camera team that came out there to my house that this John Coker was with.

Mr. SPECTER. On which occasion was that?

Mrs. HILL. That is important to me and that is the reason why I digressed and got on that.

Mr. SPECTER. This occurred, you say, about 2 weeks after the assassination?

Mrs. HILL. Say--10 days.

Mr. SPECTER. What happened on that occasion?

Mrs. HILL. They came out and brought TV cameras and were going to take, and they told me they were not going to tell me the questions that they were going to ask me, that they wanted to get my reactions to their questions, and they set up rather, I would say they set up hypothetical situations like--could he have been shot from the window, if this is the kind of wound that it would have made? Or, to make this kind of a wound, he had to have been here, now which, you know--and so I told them and from what I gathered that day, they did not think I had--I had gotten the idea from them, that there was speculation or some reasonable doubt that I--that Oswald did not do all the shooting and that all these shots did not come from the window.

Mr. SPECTER. You told the newspaper and the television cameramen that?

Mrs. HILL. That's what I got from them from the questions they asked me.

Mr. SPECTER. What answers did you give them to those questions?

Mrs. HILL. Well, when they would set up a situation, I would tell them what I thought would have had to happen in that situation.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, without formulating any questions which would lead you in any way to any conclusions, let me ask you for your best recollection as to what you think occurred, as to the point where the assassin was, if you have any idea on that question?

Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said previously, to me at the time the shot came from the knoll, you know.

Mr. SPECTER. And you have testified to that because of the sound of the shots?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And also because you saw this man running away.

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you think perhaps that you had the impression that that came from the knoll exclusively because you saw the man running away? And your reaction that that must have been the man who did the shooting?

Mrs. HILL. It could have been very well--it could have been.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, are there any other factors which led you to think that the shots came from the knoll, factors other than those you have already told me about?

Mrs. HILL. Except that I believe these men thought so that night.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, never mind the men, but focus just on what your reaction was at the time.

Mrs. HILL. That's what I thought. At the time I thought that there was more than one person shooting, as I said before.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, you have already told me about that and you told me about the source of the knoll, and you told me why you thought that was more than one person, and now, what I'm trying to get at is why you thought they came from the knoll--was it first because the way the shot sounded and secondly, because the man ran away, and then I asked you the second question--did you think perhaps they came from the knoll exclusively because you saw the man run away, and you said you thought that might be the case.

Mrs. HILL. Could be.

Mr. SPECTER. And then I asked you were there any other findings other than those we have already talked about, which would make you think that the shots came from the knoll, based on your own personal observations, recollections or impressions.

Mrs. HILL. Nothing that comes to mind.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything else about that television interview which you consider important?

Mrs. HILL. Except for the fact it left me very doubtful and confused.

Mr. SPECTER. Because they gave you a lot of hypothetical situations, and you didn't know which was which, if you listened to them?

Mrs. HILL. That's right--they had some very strange ideas which I have heard here and there voiced by other people.

Mr. SPECTER. What were they doing basically, asking you to comment on those various theories?

Mrs. HILL. I asked why were they coming out here, why would they come to my home, why was that important, and they said, "Something big is going to break in a little while and we want to put it on first. We want to be ready for it."

Mr. SPECTER. Did they ever put that television interview on?

Mrs. HILL. I have never seen any, but then, I never saw myself on TV either.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else about that television interview which you now consider important?

Mrs. HILL. Well, I know that it has bothered me ever since it happened, and particularly since I have been questioned these other times.

Mr. SPECTER. By the FBI last week?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; and without things of comments, and speculation that I have heard, and remarks that I've gone back over, of happenings that have happened to me that day and as to the way it happened, and frankly, I would either like to say it again or something----

Mr. SPECTER. Like to say what again?

Mrs. HILL. I would like to see this telecast or hear that questioning again because there's something about it that keeps in the back of my mind----

Mr. SPECTER. But you can't put your finger on what it is?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. But you are annoyed or bothered or perplexed with it or confused by that?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; I have been.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you told me everything that you have to say about that television interview?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, moving on to the question about Mark Lane, what did you tell him other than that which you have told me here today?

Mrs. HILL. He asked me where we were taken and I told him in the pressroom, that we didn't know it was the pressroom at the time, and that we didn't know we couldn't leave and because they kept standing across the door, and the first time we really--we were getting tired of it, I mean, we had been down there quite a while and we were getting tired of it and we wanted to leave and this is what I told him, and so some man came in and offered Mary a sum, I think--say--$10,000 or something like this for this picture.

We realized that--they said, "Don't sell the picture." He was a representative of either Post or Life, and they said, "Don't sell that picture until our representatives have contacted you or a lawyer or something." Anyway, we realized at that time we didn't have that picture, that it had been taken from us. I mean, we had let Featherstone look at it, you know, but we told no one they could reproduce it. They said, "Would you let us look at it and see if it could be reproduced?" We said, "Yes; you could look at it," we thought it was--you know, it was fuzzy and everything, but we were wanting to keep them and we suddenly realized we didn't have that picture, and that was quite a bit of money and we were getting pretty excited about it, and Mary was getting scared----

Mr. SPECTER. Did she eventually sell the picture, by the way?

Mrs. HILL. She sold the rights, the publishing rights of it, not the original picture, but they had already--AP and UP had already picked it up because Featherstone stole it.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what she sold those rights for?

Mrs. HILL. I think it was $600.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell Mark Lane besides about the picture?

Mrs. HILL. This is it.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine, go ahead.

Mrs. HILL. Anyway, when I realized we didn't have that picture and Mary was getting upset about that--by that time I had realized we were in a pressroom and that he had no right to be holding us and he had no authority and that we could get out of there, and they kept standing in front of the door, and I told him--I said, "Get out." We kept asking him for our picture, and where it was, and he said, "We'll get it back--we'll get it back. And so I jerked away and ran out of the door and as I did, there was a Secret Service man. Now, this I was told--that he was a Secret Service man, and he said, "Do you have a red raincoat?" And, I said, "Yes; it's in yonder. Let me go." I was intent on finding someone to get that picture back and I said as I walked out, "I can get someone big enough to get it back for us." He said, "Does your friend have a blue raincoat?" And I said, "Yes; she's in there." He said, "Here they are," to somebody else and they told us that they had been looking for us.

Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that?

Mrs. HILL. This man.

Mr. SPECTER. All this you told Mr. Lane?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Go ahead.

Mrs. HILL. And so, then they took us into the police station. Just about that time Sheriff Decker came out and the man was with us and we were telling him why we were in there, why we had been in the pressroom, you know, and why they hadn't been able to find us, because they had thought that Mary had been hit and they were looking for the two women that were standing right by the car with the camera. At that time they didn't know what we were doing down there and why we were right at the car. So, there followed questioning all afternoon long, and he asked me at one time--well, in fact he asked repeatedly if I was held and I told him, "Yes."

Mr. SPECTER. Who asked you that?

Mrs. HILL. Mark Lane.

Mr. SPECTER. If you were held?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; you know if I were held, if I had to stay there and I told him, "Yes," but I told him when we were in the pressroom it was just our own ignorance, really, that was keeping us there and letting the man intimidate us that had no authority.

Mr. SPECTER. That was a newsman as opposed to the police official?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; and I gave Mark Lane his name several times--clearly. I remember clearly that I gave him his name.

Mr. SPECTER. And what name did you give him?

Mrs. HILL. Featherstone of the Times Herald, and so after we got out of there and I talked with a man----

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are continuing to tell me everything you told Mark Lane?

Mrs. HILL. That's right, and I talked with this man, a Secret Service man, and I said, "Am I a kook or what's wrong with me?" I said, "They keep saying three shots--three shots," and I said, "I know I heard more. I heard from four to six shots anyway."

He said, "Mrs. Hill, we were standing at the window and we heard more shots also, but we have three wounds and we have three bullets, three shots is all that we are willing to say right now."

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did that Secret Service man try to suggest to you that there were only three shots in any other way than that?

Mrs. HILL. That's all he said to me. He didn't say, "You have to say three shots"--he didn't tell me what to say.

Mr. SPECTER. He didn't try to intimidate you or coerce you in any way?

Mrs. HILL. No; that's all he said.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Go ahead and tell me what you told Mark Lane.

Mrs. HILL. I told him--I was asked by them----

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who that Secret Service man was, by the way?

Mrs. HILL. No; I don't. I don't know--not any name that day except Decker and the President.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, go ahead and tell me everything else you said.

Mrs. HILL. Then, he asked me--I was asked did I know that a bullet struck at my feet and I said, "No; I didn't." And he said, "What do you think that dust was?" And I said, "I didn't see any dust." And I told Mark Lane that the Times Herald did run a picture in the paper of a concrete scar where a bullet had hit right where we were standing, which is evident to anybody that had an issue of the Times Herald.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see that concrete?

Mrs. HILL. I didn't go back down there.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not a bullet did hit that concrete?

Mrs. HILL. As I say, I saw the picture in the newspaper.

Mr. SPECTER. Aside from seeing it in the newspaper, do you know anything about that?

Mrs. HILL. No; other than what the man said he saw out of the window of the courthouse, the Secret Service man said and it struck at my feet, other than that--I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. What else did you tell Mark Lane?

Mrs. HILL. So, he asked me, "Did you have to stay down there or did you stay of your own accord?" And I said, "No; we had stay there." He said something--he said, "Were you threatened or something?" And I told him I wasn't threatened, but--he said, "How do you know you were held?" Or something like that, and I said, "Because I tried to leave twice. At one time I saw people I knew on the street and I was going to go down and talk to them and I went down and they came down and got me, and another time I went down when the evening edition of the paper hit the street and two men," and I told him, I did not tell him they were Secret Service men, but they were men from the sheriff's office. There were some kind of deputy or something that came down and took me back and they were not playing. They meant to take me back. They did take my arms and I knew I was going, because I just kept standing on the corner saying, "No; I don't want to go back yet. Please let me stay down here just a little while." They did make us go back in there.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were they from?

Mrs. HILL. They were from the sheriff's office, they were just deputies--they weren't FBI or Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it after that that you gave the affidavit to the sheriff?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What else did you tell Mark Lane?

Mrs. HILL. Well, I told him that my story had already been given, that they had an affidavit down there, and he said, "Were you ever at any time--" I think he said, "Were you ever at any time told not to say something or this, that, and the other," and I said, "The only thing that I was told not to say was to not mention the man running," and he said, "And why?" And I said, "Well, it was an FBI or Secret Service that told me not to, but they came in to me just right after I was taken--I was in there in the pressroom, and told me in fact--I told him it was Featherstone that told me. He said, "You know you were wrong about seeing a man running." He said, "You didn't."

Mr. SPECTER. Who told you you were wrong--Featherstone or Lane?

Mrs. HILL. Featherstone. And I told him that--I told Mr. Lane that Mr. Featherstone had told me that, and I said, "But I did," and he said, "No; don't say that any more on the air."

Mr. SPECTER. Who said, "Don't say that any more on the air?"

Mrs. HILL. Featherstone; and I made it clear to Mark Lane, because I mentioned his name several times, and he said, "He has told me not to tell anyone"----

Mr. SPECTER. You mean Featherstone?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; that the shots had come from a window up in the Depository and for me not to say that any more, that I was wrong about it, and I said "Very well," and so I just didn't say any more that I ran across the street to see the man, and that's the part, as much as I can get from when the FBI men came out and talked to me the other day, that is the part mostly that I got that was out of context, because what he gave the Commission was basically true.

Mr. SPECTER. What Mark Lane gave the Commission?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Except for what----

Mrs. HILL. Except he didn't have his comments in there.

Mr. SPECTER. What were his comments?

Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, the way he would ask me things I can see why I gave the answers I did, which to me are the truth, but I can see, taken out of context, why he or the Commission, well, not how he, because he was listening to me--how the Commission could take it to mean maybe something else?

Mr. SPECTER. Did he repeat then to the Commission how the Commission could take them to mean maybe something else?

Mrs. HILL. Yes----

Mr. SPECTER. Did he repeat them to the Commission out of context--did Mark Lane repeat them out of context?

Mrs. HILL. To me they were--to me they were--it was my comments and it wasn't everything I said.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now related all of the ways that Mark Lane took your comments out of context?

Mrs. HILL. So far as I know.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything else about your conversation with Mark Lane which you think would be helpful to the Commission to know about?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, before getting on to Mark Lane, we were talking about the times you had been interviewed by the authorities and you had told me you were interviewed a couple of times by telephone by the FBI when you called back to verify it was the FBI and about a single interview you had with the FBI a week ago today, which would have been the 17th of March?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you had any additional interviews with any Federal authorities before today, other than those which you have already told me about?

Mrs. HILL. No; not that I remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, for the record, Mrs. Hill, I'm going to ask you some questions about your own background--first of all I would like you to tell me how old you are, for the record?

Mrs. HILL. Thirty-three.

Mr. SPECTER. And where is your home area--Dallas or some other part of the country or what?

Mrs. HILL. Where am I from?

Mr. SPECTER. Where are you from?

Mrs. HILL. Oklahoma.

Mr. SPECTER. And what city in Oklahoma?

Mrs. HILL. Originally Wewoka and later Oklahoma City.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you married?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And is there any unusual status with respect to your being married at this moment?

Mrs. HILL. I am in the process of getting a divorce.

Mr. SPECTER. And how many children have you?

Mrs. HILL. I have two--a boy 12 and a girl 10.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your educational background?

Mrs. HILL. I was graduated from Wewoka High School and Oklahoma Baptist University in Shawnee.

Mr. SPECTER. And what year did you graduate from high school?

Mrs. HILL. 1948.

Mr. SPECTER. And what year from college?

Mrs. HILL. 1954, after two babies later.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that a 4-year college?

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. And how are you occupied at the present time?

Mrs. HILL. I taught 7 years in Oklahoma City public schools and for the past year and a half I have been doing substitute teaching for the Dallas Board of Education.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your maiden name?

Mrs. HILL. Lollis.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your husband's occupation?

Mrs. HILL. He is a consultant for Science Research Associates, lately IBM.

Mr. SPECTER. And is there anything else that you would care to tell me which you think might be of aid to the Commission in its investigation?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming and giving your deposition.

Mrs. HILL. Am I completely through with the Commission?

Mr. SPECTER. I think this will be the end of it--we have all of the records, and to the best of my expectation--yes; but you could be called anytime. You have both the pleasure and the discomfort, but the distinction of having been an eye witness.

Mrs. HILL. Well, I know, I have always been rather--I mean, it's not something you are--you are not proud to say it, but I think it was part of history and I was glad I was there, but because I got publicity, because--I think my children will be interested to know that someday that I was in it someway.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, let me say, as to the best of my knowledge there are no further plans for the Commission to call you again. This transcript will be reviewed by me in Washington and by my colleagues in Washington and it is possible that you may be contacted again. Perhaps I might talk to you again by telephone or perhaps the FBI, or it is even conceivable the Commission might want to hear from you, yourself, in Washington, but my best estimate of the situation right now is that we have the basic information from you which we need.

Mrs. HILL. I told the FBI the other day I did not want to go to Washington. I don't think I can take any more laughing at.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, we won't call on you unless it is concluded that it is absolutely necessary.

Mrs. HILL. Good. I was hoping this would do it.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Thank you very much.

Mrs. HILL. Thank you.

Mr. SPECTER. For the purposes of the record, this diagram which was used during the deposition of Mrs. Hill will be marked Hill Exhibit No. 5.

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Hill Exhibit No. 5, for identification.)

TESTIMONY OF AUSTIN L. MILLER

The testimony of Austin L. Miller was taken at 2:40 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and be sworn, sir.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the President's Commission is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MILLER. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you state your name for the record.

Mr. MILLER. Austin L. Miller.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live?

Mr. MILLER. 1006 Powl Circle, Mesquite, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas?

Mr. MILLER. Yes; it is just a little town.

Mr. BELIN. How far out of Dallas?

Mr. MILLER. It borders the city limits of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. MILLER. Twenty-six

Mr. BELIN. Married?

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school in Texas?

Mr. MILLER. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you go to school?

Mr. MILLER. Tenth grade.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. MILLER. I quit school and went to work.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you work?

Mr. MILLER. First worked at Titche's, and then for Robertson & King Motor Supply, and from there I went back to Titche's, and then to A. & P. Bakery Co., and then I worked for Presto Delivery Co., and then to Texas-Louisiana Freight Bureau where I am working now.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been there?

Mr. MILLER. Ever since 1958, January 1958.

Mr. BELIN. What do you do now?

Mr. MILLER. Well, it is a combination job between mail clerk and tariff compiler.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you working on Friday, November 22, 1963, which was the day that President Kennedy came to Dallas?

Mr. MILLER. Texas-Louisiana Freight Bureau.

Mr. BELIN. Where is that located?

Mr. MILLER. 215 Union Terminal.

Mr. BELIN. Where is the Union Terminal located?

Mr. MILLER. That is down at--the address they give is 400 South Houston Street, but the book is not the correct address, but that is what they use. Because 400 is the opposite side of the block, and there is a city park there.

Mr. BELIN. What cross street? Would it be near any intersection at all, or not?

Mr. MILLER. On the corner of Houston, and I can't think of the name of that street now, right in front of the Dallas Morning News.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be north or south of Main Street?

Mr. MILLER. It would be south.

Mr. BELIN. How many blocks south of Main Street?

Mr. MILLER. Four blocks.

Mr. BELIN. Four blocks south of Main Street on Houston?

Mr. MILLER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. All right, where were you at about the time the motorcade came by?

Mr. MILLER. I was standing on the top of the triple underpass on the Main Street side.

Mr. BELIN. Now when you say triple underpass, there are actually three underpasses there?

Mr. MILLER. Yes. They are sitting side by side. It is Main, Commerce, and Elm. I was over Elm instead of Main Street. I was over Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. Now there is a place where the railroad tracks are, and that is the first. Is it all railroad tracks, or part railroad tracks and part freeway?

Mr. MILLER. All railroad tracks go over that particular set of underpass.

Mr. BELIN. Where you were?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When did you get there?

Mr. MILLER. About 12:15 or 12:20.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what time the motorcade came by?

Mr. MILLER. No; I don't, not for sure.

Mr. BELIN. About how long after you got there did you see the motorcade?

Mr. MILLER. About 10 or 15 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. Anyone else standing around there that you knew?

Mr. MILLER. Royce Skelton, the boy I work with and an elderly man who is a building maintenance man. By name, I don't know him, but a lot of other employees I have seen in the building other than myself.

Mr. BELIN. Anyone else that you knew?

Mr. MILLER. As far as knowing, no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You saw other people there?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any police officer around there?

Mr. MILLER. There was one on both sides of the bridge.

Mr. BELIN. Well, describe what happened. Did you see the motorcade come by?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir; it came down Main Street and turned north on Houston Street and went over two blocks and turned left onto Elm Street.

Got about halfway down the hill going toward the underpass and that is when as far as I can recall the first shot was fired.

Mr. BELIN. Did you know it was a shot when you heard it?

Mr. MILLER. I didn't know it. I thought at first the motorcycle backfiring or somebody throwed some firecrackers out.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you hear or see?

Mr. MILLER. After the first one, just a few seconds later, there was two more shots fired or, or sounded like a sound at the time. I didn't know for sure. And it was after that I saw some man in the car fall forward, and a woman next to him grab him and hollered, and just what, I don't know exactly what she said.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see?

Mr. MILLER. About that time I turned and looked toward the--there is a little plaza sitting on the hill. I looked over there to see if anything was there, who threw the firecracker or whatever it was, or see if anything was up there, and there wasn't nobody standing there, so I stepped back and looked on the tracks to see if anybody run across the railroad tracks, and there was nobody running across the railroad tracks.

So I turned right straight back just in time to see the convertible take off fast.

Mr. BELIN. You mean the convertible in which the President was riding?

Mr. MILLER. I wouldn't want to say it was the President. It was a convertible, but I saw a man fall over. I don't know whose convertible it was.

Mr. BELIN. Where did the shots sound like they came from?

Mr. MILLER. Well, the way it sounded like, it came from the, I would say from right there in the car. Would be to my left, the way I was looking at him over toward that incline.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that you saw.

Mr. MILLER. About the time I looked over to the side there, there was a police officer. No; a motorcycle running his motor under against the curb, and jumped off and come up to the hill toward the top and right behind him was some more officers and plainclothesmen, too.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone that might be, that gave any suspicious movements of any kind over there?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone when you looked around on the railroad tracks, that you hadn't seen before?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir; I didn't. We was all standing in one group right at the rail looking over, and the police officer, he was standing about 5 or 10 feet behind us.

Mr. BELIN. Now about how many were there in that group altogether, if you can remember?

Mr. MILLER. I would say in the neighborhood of 10 or 12 people. Maybe more, maybe less.

Mr. BELIN. Apart from those people, did you see anyone else in the vicinity at all on the railroad tracks?

Mr. MILLER. There was one young man or boy. He was going to come up on the tracks, but the police officer stopped him and asked him where he was going, and he said he was going to come up where he could see, and he asked if he worked for the train station, and he said, "No," so the police officer made him go back down.

Where he went to, I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. When was this?

Mr. MILLER. Oh, before the President came along.

Mr. BELIN. About how much before, do you know? Offhand?

Mr. MILLER. I couldn't say.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know anything about this man or boy that you described? About how old he was, or anything?

Mr. MILLER. I can't think. I would say he was in his early twenties.

Mr. BELIN. Tall or short?

Mr. MILLER. I don't remember that much about him. I do recall him coming up and the man talking to him and turning him back.

Mr. BELIN. So he went back down?

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where did he come up from?

Mr. MILLER. He came up from the--I am going by where I was standing. He was from our left, from around behind that parking lot.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him again or not?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see anyone else in that area at all or anything on the railroad tracks at any time?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir; not until after the shots were fired and the police officers came up the hill and climbed over the fence and started searching.

Mr. BELIN. That was the only other people that you saw?

Mr. MILLER. That is all I recall seeing.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can add that might be of help in any way to the Commission, or to the investigation into the assassination?

Mr. MILLER. Offhand, no, sir; I don't recall anything else.

My statement at the time may have some more, but I don't recall exactly what all did happen for sure.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you and I never met until just a few minutes ago, did we?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And as soon as you came in here, we started immediately taking your testimony under oath, is that correct?

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. We never talked about the facts before then, did we?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you have the right, if you like, to read this deposition when it is typewritten, and sign it, or else you can waive the signing of it and have it go directly to Washington without your signing. What would be your preference?

Mr. MILLER. If you rather it would be signed----

Mr. BELIN. We do not require it to be signed.

Mr. MILLER. It makes no difference.

Mr. BELIN. We have no preference. We do not require your signing. You can waive the signing of it to save yourself a trip coming down here again, or you have the right, if you like, to come down and read it and sign.

Mr. MILLER. I will just waive it, because it would be to my advantage to not have to take off.

Mr. BELIN. All right, we sure appreciate your coming down and thank you very much.

There is one other thing. We have a sketch. I want to ask you to put on the sketch where you were.

Mr. MILLER. Okay.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you what we call "A. Miller Deposition Exhibit A." I am going to try and get this thing oriented here.

Here is Houston Street running north this way.

There is Elm. Here is the railroad overpass, and here is the freeway overpass.

Mr. MILLER. Now where this "X" is at up here, is where we was standing.

Mr. BELIN. Where it is marked "Pos. 5," there is an arrow there which I have put there, is that right?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. By the "X," which appears to be right over the overpass of Elm, which would be to the east side of the overpass, is that right?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. That is where you were standing?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. BELIN. All right, sir.

Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF FRANK E. REILLY

The testimony of Frank E. Reilly was taken at 2 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas. Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. REILLY. Yes; I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. REILLY. Frank E. Reilly.

Mr. BALL. What is your address?

Mr. REILLY. 3309 Thibet, T-h-i-b-e-t [spelling].

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. REILLY. Electrician, Union Terminal.

Mr. BALL. You received a letter from the Commission, didn't you?

Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Advising you that your deposition was to be taken?

Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born and raised?

Mr. REILLY. I was born in Fort Worth.

Mr. BALL. How many years ago?

Mr. REILLY. I left over there when I was 17 and I am 70 now.

Mr. BALL. What kind of education do you have?

Mr. REILLY. Not too good--I went through the ninth grade.

Mr. BALL. What have you done since then, generally, just in a general way--you don't need to go into great detail?

Mr. REILLY. I've been with the Terminal Co. since 1916.

Mr. BALL. You have been a railroad man all of your life, then?

Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you working for the Union Terminal Co.?

Mr. REILLY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What were you doing that day?

Mr. REILLY. We had been working on the mail conveyor up close to the other end.

Mr. BALL. What was that?

Mr. REILLY. Mail conveyor.

Mr. BALL. Who were you working with?

Mr. REILLY. I was by myself--it was on a Friday.

Mr. BALL. About noon did you go down to someplace near Elm Street?

Mr. REILLY. I went over to Mr. Holland's shop and then we went up there together to see the parade.

Mr. BALL. You went over to Mr. Holland's office?

Mr. REILLY. Mr. Holland's shop.

Mr. BALL. What is Mr. Holland's occupation?

Mr. REILLY. He is a signal supervisor.

Mr. BALL. For the Union Terminal Co.?

Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then, where did you go?

Mr. REILLY. We taken a walk up through the overpass right there.

Mr. BALL. Where did you stand on the overpass?

Mr. REILLY. Well, we went over to the railing and stood there.

Mr. BALL. And with reference to what streets--were you standing over Elm, over Main, or over Commerce?

Mr. REILLY. Well, you mean when this parade came down?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. REILLY. We were between them.

Mr. BALL. Between what streets?

Mr. REILLY. Elm and Main.

Mr. BALL. I have a map here which has been used in the deposition of another witness, but it gives some idea of the location there--this is north--this shows the corner of Elm and Houston Streets.

Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And it shows where Elm turns and goes under the railroad, the overpass.

Mr. REILLY. We were between the two.

Mr. BALL. Will you take this pen and this is Elm and here is Main, and make a mark and show me where you were standing?

Mr. REILLY. This is the overpass right there?

Mr. BALL. Yes; this is the overpass.

Mr. REILLY. We was between these two streets--there was big banisters up there and it was about like that, I guess.

Mr. BALL. We will put a mark there.

Mr. REILLY. (The witness Reilly marked the instrument as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. And I will put on that position "7"--you were standing there when the motorcade came along?

Mr. REILLY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who was standing there with you?

Mr. REILLY. I believe it was Mr. Dodd and Skinney.

Mr. BALL. And what are his initials?

Mr. REILLY. Dick Dodd.

Mr. BALL. That's R. C. Dodd, isn't it?

Mr. REILLY. I think so.

Mr. BALL. And what is his position with the Union Terminal Co.?

Mr. REILLY. Foreman of the laborers.

Mr. BALL. Who else was with him?

Mr. REILLY. These two fellows here--were standing out there, but I don't know their names?

Mr. BALL. What are their names?

Mr. REILLY. I don't know their names--I don't even associate with them.

Mr. BALL. What about Mr. Holland?

Mr. REILLY. We were together.

Mr. BALL. S. M. Holland was there?

Mr. REILLY. We were together.

Mr. BALL. Holland and Dodd and you?

Mr. REILLY. And me.

Mr. BALL. Then, there were how many other men?

Mr. REILLY. Well, there were three or four--but I don't know who they were.

Mr. BALL. You have seen two of them here, haven't you?

Mr. REILLY. Yes; two of them out there.

Mr. BALL. And you know one's name is----

Mr. REILLY. I wouldn't know it--their name--I don't even know their name only by seeing them. I do go in there in the office once in a while to put in lamps.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the name of Skelton, isn't there a fellow named Skelton there?

Mr. REILLY. No; I don't.

Mr. BALL. And a man named Miller?

Mr. REILLY. No.

Mr. BALL. Were you all standing at about the same location?

Mr. REILLY. All right close together.

Mr. BALL. Were there any police officers there?

Mr. REILLY. One behind me.

Mr. BALL. One behind you?

Mr. REILLY. He was standing back close to the tracks.

Mr. BALL. That would be where?

Mr. REILLY. About 8 or 10 feet back of us.

Mr. BALL. Were there any other police officers there?

Mr. REILLY. On the far side.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean by "far side"?

Mr. REILLY. Up to the side of where the tracks are on the west side.

Mr. BALL. It would be west of where you are standing--you put a mark down and show me where the two police officers were standing, as you remember it.

Mr. REILLY. Now, this is all tracks over here.

Mr. BALL. All tracks along the railroad overpass?

Mr. REILLY. Yes; these are all tracks in here. One of them was standing behind me and one of them was standing back around here--back along here, but just how far back, I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Put a mark down there for me where the two police officers were standing.

Mr. REILLY. I have an idea one of them was standing here, and for sure, I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Where was the other one standing?

Mr. REILLY. He was on the far side, but I didn't see him.

Mr. BALL. Well, mark that "8."

Mr. REILLY. He was on the far side--and how far back--I don't know.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean by "far side"? Do you mean he was south of you?

Mr. REILLY. No; he was west of me.

Mr. BALL. You see on the map, it's marked "Elm, Main and Commerce"--this other police officer was near what?

Mr. REILLY. I wouldn't know because I wasn't facing him and there was two of them up there.

Mr. BALL. Back; by "far side" you mean that he was south of you?

Mr. REILLY. No; he was west of me--you see, this place is east and west--these streets.

Mr. BALL. But the railroad overpass goes north and south?

Mr. REILLY. Yes; north and south.

Mr. BALL. Then, if he was west of you, he would be behind you?

Mr. REILLY. Yes; behind me.

Mr. BALL. Were there two police officers behind you?

Mr. REILLY. Yes; there was two of them--both of them--one close and one here----

Mr. BALL. Listen to the question--there were two police officers there, was there?

Mr. REILLY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were they both behind you?

Mr. REILLY. Yes.