Chapter XXIV: Part 24

Mr. LOVELADY. I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl and she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any other people on the first floor?

Mr. LOVELADY. Oh, yes; by that time there were more; a few of the guys had come in.

Mr. BALL. And you stayed on the first door then?

Mr. LOVELADY. I would say 30 minutes. And one of the policemen asked me would I take them up on the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. Did you take them up there?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir; I sure did.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Lovelady, your testimony will be written up and it can be submitted to you for your signature if you wish and you can make any changes, or you can waive signature and we will make this your final----

Mr. LOVELADY. I want this to be the final one.

Mr. BALL. All right; you waive signature?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Thanks very much.

TESTIMONY OF FRANKIE KAISER

The testimony of Frankie Kaiser was taken at 2:30 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. KAISER. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you give me your name, please?

Mr. KAISER. Frankie Kaiser.

Mr. BALL. What is your address?

Mr. KAISER. 5230 West Ledbetter in Duncanville.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. KAISER. Warehouse workman at the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. How long have you worked for that company?

Mr. KAISER. Oh, just about 2 years.

Mr. BALL. What time do you go to work down there?

Mr. KAISER. Eight o'clock in the morning.

Mr. BALL. What date did you go to work for them?

Mr. KAISER. It was August 24, 1962.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. KAISER. Texas--Texarkana, Ark.

Mr. BALL. Were you born there?

Mr. KAISER. No, sir; I was born in Omaha, Nebr.

Mr. BALL. And then you went to school in Texarkana, did you?

Mr. KAISER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do after you got out of school?

Mr. KAISER. I never finished.

Mr. BALL. How far did you go?

Mr. KAISER. I went to the tenth grade and quit and went in the service and went in for 6 months in the National Guards and come out and then came to Dallas and started to work and I worked for Morrises.

Mr. BALL. You worked for whom?

Mr. KAISER. Morris Warehouse.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do after that?

Mr. KAISER. I worked there for about 3 years and then I started to work over there.

Mr. BALL. You started to work over at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. KAISER. Yes--then I got married.

Mr. BALL. You did--what kind of work do you do at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. KAISER. Drive a truck--fill orders--just about anything that needs to be done.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever know a fellow by the name of Lee Oswald that worked there?

Mr. KAISER. Not personally--I would know him when I would see him.

Mr. BALL. Did you work in the same building with him?

Mr. KAISER. Same building.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when the President's parade went by?

Mr. KAISER. At the Baylor Dental College.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. KAISER. At the Baylor Dental College.

Mr. BALL. Sir, you weren't anywhere near the School Book Depository?

Mr. KAISER. No, sir; I was off Thursday and Friday with abscessed tooth. I was sitting in the chair and when I got off, we was out in the lobby watching it on TV down at the dental college there.

Mr. BALL. When did you go back to work?

Mr. KAISER. It was the following Monday.

Mr. BALL. That would be the 25th, wouldn't it?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir; I believe so--the 25th.

Mr. BALL. Now, one day you found a clipboard, didn't you?

Mr. KAISER. Yes; it was about a week later. I went upstairs, you see, the corner I found it in--we keep a certain teacher's edition of Catholic handbooks.

Mr. BALL. I didn't quite hear that--Catholic what?

Mr. KAISER. We keep our teacher's edition of Catholic "Think and Do" books.

Mr. BALL. I didn't quite hear that--Catholic what?

Mr. KAISER. We keep our teacher's edition of Catholic books--separated.

Mr. BALL. You do?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir; and I went up there to get a teacher's edition.

Mr. BALL. On what floor?

Mr. KAISER. On the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. Now, what part of the sixth floor is this Catholic edition located?

Mr. KAISER. It was in that corner.

Mr. BALL. And in what corner is that?

Mr. KAISER. Let's see----

Mr. BALL. Without saying north or south, was it near the elevator? Or the stairway?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, it was right in front of the elevator.

Mr. BALL. Where was it with reference to the stairway?

Mr. KAISER. It was right next to the stairway--right in the corner.

Mr. BALL. Right in the corner next to the stairway, is that right?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, what day did you find it, do you remember?

Mr. KAISER. I couldn't tell you. It was about a week or a week and a half, somewhere in there.

Mr. BALL. Now, this statement you gave to the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 2d of December 1963, says you talked to an agent named Pinkston; do you remember that?

Mr. KAISER. Well, I got my boss and the FBI to go upstairs and I showed it to them.

Mr. BALL. When you saw the clipboard----

Mr. KAISER. I went downstairs and got my boss.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. KAISER. William H. Shelley.

Mr. BALL. And then what happened?

Mr. KAISER. This FBI was standing there with me--he was standing there then and I told him I had a clipboard laying up there with the orders.

Mr. BALL. Do you think it would have been around December 2?

Mr. KAISER. I couldn't tell you, sir.

Mr. BALL. It was within a week after you went back to work, was it?

Mr. KAISER. To my best knowledge--yes, sir--somewhere in there.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to find the clipboard?

Mr. KAISER. I was over there looking for the Catholic edition--teacher's edition.

Mr. BALL. Where did you see the clipboard?

Mr. KAISER. It was just laying there in the plain open--and just the plain open boxes--you see, we've got a pretty good space back there and I just noticed it laying over there.

Mr. BALL. Laying on the floor?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, it was laying on the floor.

Mr. BALL. It was on the floor?

Mr. KAISER. It was on the floor.

Mr. BALL. How close was it to the wall?

Mr. KAISER. It was about--oh--I would say, just guessing, about 5 or 6 inches, something like that.

Mr. BALL. From the wall and on the floor?

Mr. KAISER. Laying on the floor.

Mr. BALL. And were there any boxes between the wall and the clipboard?

Mr. KAISER. No, not between the wall and the clipboard--there wasn't.

Mr. BALL. Were there boxes between the stairway and the clipboard?

Mr. KAISER. No, you see, here's--let me see just a second--here's the stairs right here, and we went down this way and here's the stairs this way going up and here's the--and it was laying right in here by the cards--there are about four or five cards, I guess, running in front of it--just laying between the part you go down and the part you go up.

Mr. BALL. You mean laying between the stairway up and the stairway down?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, right there in the corner.

Mr. BALL. Did you examine that clipboard?

Mr. KAISER. I didn't touch it.

Mr. BALL. Did you later touch it?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir; they got me to look at it later on.

Mr. BALL. Did you see it had some orders on it?

Mr. KAISER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And were the orders dated?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What were they dated?

Mr. KAISER. I couldn't tell you, sir.

Mr. BALL. Take a look at this statement which you gave to Mr. Pinkston that day and read it to yourself and see if it refreshes your memory in any way?

Mr. KAISER. (Read statement referred to.)

Mr. BALL. Did you read that?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Does that refresh your memory now as to the orders on the clipboard?

Mr. KAISER. I didn't know the date on the orders--I knew that there was some orders on there--I seen the orders on the clipboard.

Mr. BALL. Did you examine them to determine the date on them?

Mr. KAISER. Did I examine those orders? No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You didn't examine the orders?

Mr. KAISER. No, sir; I just went down and got my boss and then they took it down.

Mr. BALL. Did you make any notes of the orders?

Mr. KAISER. I didn't, sir.

Mr. BALL. Of either the names on the orders or the date of the orders?

Mr. KAISER. No, sir; now, my boss may have.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Did you fill the orders, then, yourself?

Mr. KAISER. No, sir; not them, I didn't.

Mr. BALL. You turned these over to your boss?

Mr. KAISER. You see, I went down and got them and they went down and got them and they handled them.

Mr. BALL. That's all, Mr. Kaiser, and thanks very much for coming up.

This will be written up and you can come down and read it over and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your signature, if you want to, and we can send it on without a signature.

Now, we will mark these pictures we've been talking about here in your deposition as Kaiser Exhibits Nos. A, B, C.

(Marked by reporter as Kaiser Exhibits Nos. A, B, C, for identification.)

Mr. KAISER. Anything else I can do, let me know.

Mr. BALL. Do you want to waive your signature to it?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, I'll waive it.

Mr. BALL. Fine. That's okay.

Mr. KAISER. All right.

TESTIMONY OF FRANKIE KAISER RESUMED

The testimony of Frankie Kaiser was taken at 3:40 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Frankie, we have already taken your deposition and I just wanted to ask you a few more questions and you are still under oath.

Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, Frankie, that clipboard you found describe it--what was it?

Mr. KAISER. It was made out of paper and tape and a little piece of pasteboard.

Mr. BALL. Who made it?

Mr. KAISER. I did.

Mr. BALL. When?

Mr. KAISER. Well, right after I started there--it had been a long time ago.

Mr. BALL. And how was it you weren't using it on this day?

Mr. KAISER. You see, when he first started there----

Mr. BALL. Who is "he"?

Mr. KAISER. Lee--when he first started to work there he got my clipboard and started using it.

Mr. BALL. Did you give it to him to use?

Mr. KAISER. No, he just picked it up and started using it and I just went and made me another one.

Mr. BALL. You recognized that clipboard when you saw it?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, because my name was all over it.

Mr. BALL. Your name was on it, too?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You put your name "Frankie Kaiser" on it?

Mr. KAISER. You see, it don't do no good to get a clipboard around here--everybody is always running off with it.

Mr. BALL. That's the reason you put your name on it?

Mr. KAISER. He come up and got it and started using it and I just let him keep it and made me another one.

Mr. BALL. Now, here is a picture which is marked in a group of pictures as No. 36, but which I will mark as Exhibit A to your deposition.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as Kaiser Exhibit A, for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Does this show the place where the clipboard was found, or do you know?

Mr. KAISER. It wasn't found there--it was found on the floor.

Mr. BALL. Where on the floor?

Mr. KAISER. Behind these cartons--between there and the wall.

Mr. BALL. Behind which cartons?

Mr. KAISER. Right in here (indicating).

Mr. BALL. Which cartons--it was found behind--are the cartons in the picture--it wasn't found where it is circled there?

Mr. KAISER. It wasn't found where it circled--there--it was found on the floor.

Mr. BALL. Put a big "X" on the carton behind which it was found.

Mr. KAISER. I'll put it on this one--it was found between that and the wall. (Witness placed "X" on the pictures requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. You have marked an "X" on the carton--between that carton and the wall the clipboard was found.

Mr. KAISER. Yes, between these row of cartons right over there.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you later find clothing?

Mr. KAISER. I just found the coat there--I didn't even know it was his until somebody told me it was. I thought they were kidding.

Mr. BALL. This is Commission Exhibit 163--do you recognize that blue jacket?

Mr. KAISER. That's the one I found.

Mr. BALL. Where did you find it--tell me first.

Mr. KAISER. It was in the window sill.

Mr. BALL. In what room?

Mr. KAISER. In the domino room.

Mr. BALL. Now, I show you a picture, No. 17, this is marked--does this show the window?

Mr. KAISER. Right down in here.

Mr. BALL. There is a jacket showing in that window, is that where the jacket was found?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir; but it was laying behind this in the window.

Mr. BALL. It wasn't found in the position of the jacket shown in the picture?

Mr. KAISER. No; it sure wasn't.

Mr. BALL. But was it the same window?

Mr. KAISER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And the window sill is shown there too?

Mr. KAISER. Yes; it is.

Mr. BALL. I show you a picture which is marked Exhibit 18, does this show the place where the jacket was found?

Mr. KAISER. Right over in here.

Mr. BALL. Where--put an "X" there--it's in the window sill?

Mr. KAISER. Right.

(Marked diagram with an "X".)

Mr. BALL. There is an Exhibit 17, which shows the corner of the domino room and the window and it is marked as Exhibit B and the picture marked No. 18, which shows the window sill, bearing an "X" placed there by the witness, and is marked as Exhibit "C". Will you initial that "C" please?

Mr. KAISER. (Initialed instrument as requested.)

Mr. BALL. That's "FK".

I believe we are through, now, Frankie, thank you very much.

Mr. KAISER. That's all right.

Mr. BALL. You'll waive this signature too?

Mr. KAISER. Yes.

(Instruments marked by the reporter as Kaiser Exhibits B and C, for identification.)

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES DOUGLAS GIVENS

The testimony of Charles Douglas Givens was taken at 9 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. GIVENS. I do.

Mr. BELIN. What is your name, please?

Mr. GIVENS. Charles Douglas Givens.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Givens?

Mr. GIVENS. I live at 4208 First Avenue.

Mr. BELIN. In Dallas?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. GIVENS. 38.

Mr. BELIN. Married?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Family?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you born, Mr. Givens?

Mr. GIVENS. Kemp, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Have you lived in Texas most of your life?

Mr. GIVENS. All my life except I was in the Armed Forces during World War II, in the Navy.

Mr. BELIN. How long were you in the Navy?

Mr. GIVENS. About 2 years.

Mr. BELIN. Let me backtrack a little. Did you go to high school before you went in the Navy?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?

Mr. GIVENS. Twelfth grade.

Mr. BELIN. Did you get through the 12th?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You got up to the 12th grade?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I went to work.

Mr. BELIN. Doing what?

Mr. GIVENS. SMU.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon?

Mr. GIVENS. SMU.

Mr. BELIN. SMU?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do out there?

Mr. GIVENS. I worked in the kitchen.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay there?

Mr. GIVENS. Oh, about 2 years.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. GIVENS. I went in the service.

Mr. BELIN. You went in the service for a couple of years?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with most of your time in the service?

Mr. GIVENS. I was in the Steward Mate Branch.

Mr. BELIN. Were you honorably discharged?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you got out of the service?

Mr. GIVENS. I went back to work.

Mr. BELIN. At SMU?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where?

Mr. GIVENS. I worked at Central Lumber Co.

Mr. BELIN. Doing what there?

Mr. GIVENS. I was a truck helper; helper on the truck.

Mr. BELIN. You were helper on a truck?

Mr. GIVENS. Delivering lumber; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you do that?

Mr. GIVENS. Oh, about a year and a half, I guess.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. GIVENS. One time I got into a little difficulty. Got in a little trouble.

Mr. BELIN. You got in a little trouble?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right, you were not working for a while?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About how long was that?

Mr. GIVENS. About 13 months.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then, what did you do?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I came back and I worked for a construction company, and then after that I got this job down here at the depository.

Mr. BELIN. At the School Book Depository?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you worked there?

Mr. GIVENS. Off and on about 6 years.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any period of time that you haven't worked there?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What happened then?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I just, you know, sometimes I had some days to layoff during the slack season, like it is now, and when it is rush season he calls you back.

Mr. BELIN. So it was just a question of being laid off during the slack season?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What do you do down there at the Texas Book Depository?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I filled orders and stacked books, and you know, don't have any special job.

Mr. BELIN. On what floors do you generally work most of all?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I work on the first floor most of the time, like we fill orders. We work out of the stock downstairs. We go upstairs. We have stock on three floors, fifth, sixth, and seventh.

Mr. BELIN. Well, do you fill orders for any particular publisher more than another, so that you might be on the fifth floor, or the sixth floor more than the seventh, or do you just spend as much time on any one of those top floors as you do on any other top floor?

Mr. GIVENS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Is that what you were doing on the 22d of November 1963, also?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What were you doing on November 22?

Mr. GIVENS. We were fixing the floor, putting down some plywood on the floor.

Mr. BELIN. What floor would this have been on?

Mr. GIVENS. Sixth.

Mr. BELIN. What part of the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. We were working on the west end.

Mr. BELIN. All right, do you remember what time you got to work that day?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes; I got to work around about a quarter to eight.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go when you got to work?

Mr. GIVENS. I went in a little lunchroom that we have downstairs.

Mr. BELIN. Is that what you call the domino room?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You carry your lunch with you?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You put your lunch there?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you wear a jacket to work that day?

Mr. GIVENS. I wore a raincoat, I believe. It was misting that morning.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hang up your coat in that room, too?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you know Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I knew of him.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever talked with him at all?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I talked to him once in a while. I mean, just like about filling orders or something like that. Sometimes I check and he was filling orders and he make a mistake, and I call him and get the book right.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any conversation you ever had with him? What you said and what he said?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, he was a fellow that kept pretty much to himself. He never had too much to say.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever say anything to you, what a nice day, or about his family, or baseball, or anything?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Ever talk to you about any politics?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you talked to him about correcting an order, what did you say and what did he say?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I just tell him he had the wrong book.

Mr. BELIN. What would he say?

Mr. GIVENS. He said, "Okay," and got the record.

Mr. BELIN. What did you call him, Lee or Oswald?

Mr. GIVENS. Called him Lee.

Mr. BELIN. What did he call you?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, he never called me anything. I never heard him call me anything.

Mr. BELIN. Did he make mistakes often?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, not too often.

Mr. BELIN. When you got to work on the morning of November 22, did you see him at all there or not?

Mr. GIVENS. 22d? That was on Friday, wasn't it?

Mr. BELIN. Friday; that is the day the President came by.

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, I saw him that day.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you see him first?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I first saw him on the first floor.

Mr. BELIN. About what time was that?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, about 8:30.

Mr. BELIN. Now, let me ask you this. You got to work at a quarter to 8?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do between a quarter of 8 and 8:30? Where were you?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I went upstairs. We went to work at 8 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him come into the domino room at all?

Mr. GIVENS. Not that morning, no, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. When did you leave the domino room to go up to the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. 8 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. At 8 o'clock?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. So you don't feel he came in the domino room before 8 o'clock?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; not that morning he didn't.

Mr. BELIN. How did you get up to the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. On the elevator.

Mr. BELIN. The east or the west one? The west one is the one that would be nearest the railroad tracks, and the east one would be nearer the Houston Street.

Mr. GIVENS. We went up on the east one.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you took the east one rather than the west one?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I don't know whether you call it a particular reason, but on the west, you have double gates on that.

Mr. BELIN. Was the west elevator on the first floor when you took the east elevator up?

Mr. GIVENS. It was that morning, yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. It was that morning around 8 o'clock?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, where did you see him at 8:30 o'clock first?

Mr. GIVENS. I came back down to use the rest room.

Mr. BELIN. Where was he?

Mr. GIVENS. He was over there in the bin filling orders.

Mr. BELIN. He was over in the bin filling orders?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; they had some bins there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to him at all?

Mr. GIVENS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you say hello, Lee?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I didn't say anything to him. I just looked at him.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he was wearing?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I believe it was kind of a greenish looking shirt and pants was about the same color as his shirt, practically the same thing he wore all the time he worked there. He never changed clothes the whole time he worked there, and he would wear a grey looking jacket.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You saw him at 8:30 on the first floor?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, we went back upstairs and started to work.

Mr. BELIN. You went back up to the sixth floor to continue laying the floor?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When did you see Lee Harvey Oswald next?

Mr. GIVENS. Next?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. GIVENS. Well, it was about a quarter till 12, we were on our way downstairs, and we passed him, and he was standing at the gate on the fifth floor.

I came downstairs, and I discovered I left my cigarettes in my jacket pocket upstairs, and I took the elevator back upstairs to get my jacket with my cigarettes in it. When I got back upstairs, he was on the sixth floor in that vicinity, coming from that way.

Mr. BELIN. Coming from what way?

Mr. GIVENS. Toward the window up front where the shots were fired from.

Mr. BELIN. Just a second, where did you go? Where were you when you saw him on the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. I had went and got my jacket and was on my way back to the elevator.

Mr. BELIN. All right, just a second. I am going to get a plan of the sixth floor, if I have one, and try and have you point that out to me.

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I don't seem to have a sixth floor plan here, but perhaps we can use another plan here to help us.

Here is a diagram of the front of the building. This is the Elm Street side, and you can see the arrow pointing north.

This perhaps would be a diagram of the third floor. You notice that there are one, two, three, four, five, six, seven sets of windows, right?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. On the Elm Street side, seven pairs of windows?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You notice the two freight elevators toward the rear. Now did you see--when you first saw him on the sixth floor there, were you standing near any of these windows?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. I was over here by the elevators.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing your finger to a spot which would be somewhat to the east of the east elevator, is that correct?

Mr. GIVENS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. At a spot which is about on the same line as what I call the south side of the east elevator, and about as far east of the front part of that elevator as the distance from the front of the elevator to the back of the east elevator, is that about right?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You were standing at that point, and where did you see Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I was along here [indicating].

Mr. BELIN. All right, you are pointing at a spot you say along in here?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. That would be near the east wall of the building?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You can see a scale here that is from 0 to 20 feet. Well, it would be about 30 to 40 feet north of the south wall of that building, is that right?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And around 10 feet or so away from the east wall, is that about right?

Mr. GIVENS. That is about right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, did you notice whether or not there were any cartons stacked up around the southeast corner of that sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I didn't pay any attention about any being stacked, because we had taken all that stock from that side of the building and ran it down that side.

Mr. BELIN. You had taken stock down from the west part of the sixth floor where you were working and put it there?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes; ran it down the side right in front of the window.

Mr. BELIN. Was he between that stock and the window, or was he on the other side of the window?

Mr. GIVENS. He was between the stock and the window, coming towards the elevators.

Mr. BELIN. Coming towards the elevators?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see all of his body or not?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; he had his clipboard in his hand.

Mr. BELIN. He had his clipboard in his hand?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was that kind of an aisleway over there right next to the east wall that he was walking along, or what?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; they have aisles.

Mr. BELIN. Now, was there stock in back of him as well as in front of him? Were you where you had stacked it up, or not, or don't you remember?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, it was already some books stacked there.

Mr. BELIN. Were there books stacked between where you saw him and the window itself?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right, he was walking with his clipboard from that southeast corner?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you see him walking? What direction did you see him walking in?

Mr. GIVENS. He was coming towards the elevators.

Mr. BELIN. From the Elm Street side of the building?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. So that would be walking in a northerly direction?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you said that he had a clipboard in his hand?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes; he had his board with his orders on it.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the orders on the board?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, yes, sir; he had it in his hand.

Mr. BELIN. Did he have any books in his hand that he was carrying?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever fill orders in November on the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not there were any books or book cartons over in that corner from which he might have been filling orders?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, yes, sir; it was possible.

Mr. BELIN. It was possible?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you watch where he walked to?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, no, sir; I didn't pay much attention. I was getting ready to get on the elevator, and I say, "Boy, are you going downstairs?"

Mr. BELIN. What did he say to you?

Mr. GIVENS. I say, "It's near lunch time."

He said, "No, sir. When you get downstairs, close the gate to the elevator."

That meant the elevator on the west side, you can pull both gates down and it will come up by itself.

Mr. BELIN. What else did he say?

Mr. GIVENS. That is all.

Mr. BELIN. What did you say to that? Did you say you would close the elevator gate, or not say anything?

Mr. GIVENS. I said, "Okay," and got on the elevator.

Mr. BELIN. What elevator did you take down?

Mr. GIVENS. I taken this one.

Mr. BELIN. The east elevator?

Mr. GIVENS. The east elevator.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not when you got down to the first floor, the west elevator was there?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; it wasn't, because I looked over there to close the gate and it wasn't there.

Mr. BELIN. It wasn't there when you got down to the first floor?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; it wasn't.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know where it was?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. What time was this?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I would say it was about 5 minutes to 12, then because it was----

Mr. BELIN. Now what did you do when you got down there on the first floor?

Mr. GIVENS. When I got down to the first floor Harold Norman, James Jarman and myself, we stood over by the window, and then we said we was going outside and watch the parade, so we walked out and we stood there a while, and then I said, "I believe I will walk up to the parking lot."

I had a friend that worked on the parking lot, right on Elm and Record.

Mr. BELIN. Elm and Record Streets?

Mr. GIVENS. Elm and Record Streets; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. That would be one block to the east of the corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. GIVENS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then, what did you do?

Mr. GIVENS. I stood around over there and went up on the corner.

Mr. BELIN. What corner?

Mr. GIVENS. Up on Main and Record. That is where I watched the President pass right there.

Mr. BELIN. Who else was there with you that you knew?

Mr. GIVENS. James and Edward Shields.

Mr. BELIN. Is that the same person, James Edward?

Mr. GIVENS. Edward Shields and James.

Mr. BELIN. Two other people?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You watched the motorcade together?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you watched the motorcade?

Mr. GIVENS. We turned and started back down to the parking lot.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. GIVENS. Then when we heard the shots, by the time we got along in front, right across in front of the Record Building, then we heard the shots.

Mr. BELIN. I want to backtrack a minute before we come to the shots. When did you eat lunch?

Mr. GIVENS. When did I eat lunch? I ate lunch after. Let's see, no; I ate lunch before I went up there, because I stood outside and ate my sandwich standing out there.

Mr. BELIN. You ate your lunch outside?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. Standing in front of the building.

Mr. BELIN. In front of what building?

Mr. GIVENS. Texas School Book.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever eat any lunch inside the building?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; I eat inside the building all the time.

Mr. BELIN. On November 22, did you eat inside the building?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now you said you saw Lee Oswald on the sixth floor around 11:55?

Mr. GIVENS. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see Lee Oswald anywhere else in the building between 11:55 and the time you left the building?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. On November 22d?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him in the domino room at all around anywhere between 11:30 and 12 or 12:30?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him reading the newspaper?

Mr. GIVENS. No; not that day. I did--he generally sit in there every morning. He would come to work and sit in there and read the paper, the next day paper, like if the day was Tuesday, he would read Monday's paper in the morning when he would come to work, but he didn't that morning because he didn't go in the domino room that morning. I didn't see him in the domino room that morning.

Mr. BELIN. How do you know it was the previous day paper that he read?

Mr. GIVENS. Because he would be sitting there and I would look at him, when he got through and got up to go to work, I would get it and look at it.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be a News or Times Herald?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, they bring Dallas Morning News around in the morning. Fellows bring it to work.

Mr. BELIN. You mean he would read someone else's newspaper that somebody else brought to work?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever know him to buy his own newspaper?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I never saw him buy one.

Mr. BELIN. Who generally brought the newspaper there?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, Harold Norman would generally bring one and James Jarman would generally bring one.

Mr. BELIN. Now you say you left the sixth floor. Well, you said you left it first to go--did you go down with the other employees on the elevator?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About what time was that now?

Mr. GIVENS. That was about a quarter--I said about a quarter to 12.

Mr. BELIN. Who was on that elevator, do you remember?

Mr. GIVENS. That was Bonnie Ray Williams, and Billy Lovelady, and Danny and myself.

Mr. BELIN. That was Danny Arce?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes; a Spanish boy.

Mr. BELIN. Then you say you got down there and you say you wanted your cigarettes so you went back up?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What elevator did you go down on?

Mr. GIVENS. I came down on the east elevator.

Mr. BELIN. What elevator did you take back up?

Mr. GIVENS. The east elevator.

Mr. BELIN. That day had you eaten any chicken at all, or anything on the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Had you eaten any chicken or left a pop bottle on any previous days on the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go immediately to your jacket when you went back up to the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; I went straight and picked up my jacket.

Mr. BELIN. Where was your jacket?

Mr. GIVENS. It was on the west side of the building where we were working.

Mr. BELIN. Well, there are seven pairs of windows. Was it on the south wall of the building? Was it near any one of those windows on the south wall, or was it more to the center of the west side?

Mr. GIVENS. It was more to the corner on the west side. I would say along about the second window going.

Mr. BELIN. When you say the corner, do you mean the corner by the stairs or the southwest corner?

Mr. GIVENS. Southwest corner.

Mr. BELIN. You have shown the southwest corner?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; along about here [indicating].

Mr. BELIN. You have pointed to a spot which appears to be approximately, oh, 25 feet north, and about 10 feet east of the southwest corner of the sixth floor. Would that be about right?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You have pointed to a spot on this floor plan here. When you walked from the east elevator to pick up your jacket, did you see Lee Oswald there?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him anywhere on the sixth floor when you were walking off the elevator to pick up your jacket?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I didn't see him until I got back along here, about in front of the elevator, fixing to get on.

Mr. BELIN. As you were walking to the first spot, which we will describe as somewhat east of the east elevator, were you standing or about to get on the elevator, or what?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes; I was fixing to get on.

Mr. BELIN. You were fixing to get on? The elevator was still there where you left it when you came up?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. As you were starting to get on the elevator or were turning to get on it, you saw Lee Oswald walking with his clipboard?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, was he walking in a diagonal direction directly toward you and the elevator, or was he walking more in a direction parallel to the east wall here?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I would say yes, sir; he was going like this.

Mr. BELIN. He was going?

Mr. GIVENS. Coming down the aisle.

Mr. BELIN. Coming down the aisle straight?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else in his hand other than a clipboard? Did he have a pencil in his hand?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I didn't pay any attention to him.

Mr. BELIN. When you got off the elevator, as you were coming back up to get your shirt, did you have any occasion as you were walking out of the elevator to look to see if there was anyone else on the floor?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, no, sir; I wasn't thinking of that. I just happened to glance around as I was on my way back.

Mr. BELIN. Did you glance around when you got off the elevator, do you remember?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, no, sir. I just walked off and turned and went right over there and picked my jacket up and started back.

Mr. BELIN. Did you look over in the southeast corner before as you were getting off the elevator?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I kind of glanced that way when I turned to go around the corner.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone over there at that time?

Mr. GIVENS. Not at that time, no, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how high the books were by the southeast corner on the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I would say about 10 feet from the window. In the aisle we had one pretty good stack of books there, one large stack.

Mr. BELIN. Would they have been as tall as you?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. If a man would have been standing up there, would you have been able to see him?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I wouldn't unless he moved down towards the north end of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone else use any of the elevators while you were up on the sixth floor getting your cigarettes?

Mr. GIVENS. Not that I know of; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever tell anyone that you saw Lee Oswald reading a newspaper in the domino room around 11:50, 10 minutes to 12 on that morning on November 22d?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever observe Lee Oswald getting the newspaper in the domino room shortly before lunch on days other than November 22d?

Mr. GIVENS. Not before lunch. It would be right at lunch time.

Mr. BELIN. Right at lunch time?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. We always ate in there.

Mr. BELIN. Would Oswald always eat in there?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you first went downstairs from the sixth floor to the first floor with the other men on those two elevators, you took two elevators, didn't you?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes; we took two down.

Mr. BELIN. Were you racing the elevators?

Mr. GIVENS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Who won?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, the east elevator beat the other one down, because it stopped quicker, but it had to adjust itself.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got down to the first floor before you went back up to the sixth floor again?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I got a drink of water and reached for my cigarettes and I thought about I left them in my jacket pocket.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to the rest room at all before you went back up to the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. Yes, sir, I believe I did. I went in and washed my hands, I sure did.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else before you went back up to the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; that was it.

Mr. BELIN. Now the first time when you left the sixth floor with these other men to take the two elevators down, did you at any time look over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, no, sir; I didn't pay any attention the first time I was coming down.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you laying the new floor that morning? What portion of the sixth floor would it be?

Mr. GIVENS. West side.

Mr. BELIN. How much of the west side?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, we were working, I would say, about 10 feet from Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you were pointing to right over this point here?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, looking at the scale, it would be about 10 feet from the--it would be more than 10 feet. Here is the scale.

This would be 20 feet, so it would be more than 20 feet from Elm Street?

Mr. GIVENS. About 20 feet, maybe so.

Mr. BELIN. Do you think it was closer to 10 feet than 20 feet from the Elm Street side of the west part of the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. I believe it was somewhere in that vicinity.

Mr. BELIN. How close was it to the west wall on the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, we were, oh, I would say about 20 feet out from the wall, we had laid.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone else ever comment to you as having seen Oswald on the sixth floor that morning?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, is there anything else you can think of that happened that morning up to the time you heard the shot?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. Everything was all right until that.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. GIVENS. Three.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you heard them?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, we broke and ran down that way, and by the time we got to the corner down there of Houston and Elm, everybody was running, going toward the underpass over there by the railroad tracks.

And we asked--I asked someone--some white fellow there, "What happened?"

And he said, "Somebody shot the President." Like that. So I stood there for a while, and I went over to try to get to the building after they found out the shots came from there, and when I went over to try to get back in the officer at the door would't let me in.

Mr. BELIN. Did you tell him you worked there?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes; but he still wouldn't let me in. He told me he wouldn't let no one in.

Mr. BELIN. This was the front of Elm Street?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes. So I goes back over to the parking lot and I wait until I seen Junior.

Mr. BELIN. Is that Jarman?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes. They were on their way home, and they told me that they let them all go home for the evening, and I said, "I'd better go back and get my hat and coat."

So I started over there to pick up my hat and coat, and Officer Dawson saw me and he called me and asked me was my name Charles Givens, and I said, "Yes."

And he said, "We want you to go downtown and make a statement."

And he puts me in the car and takes me down to the city hall and I made a statement to Will Fritz down there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see Lee Oswald at any time after the time you saw him carrying the clipboard on the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. The next time I saw him was on television.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that in any way is relevant to the assassination?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of about Lee Oswald, whether I have asked it or not, that might in any way be helpful?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. Other than he is just a peculiar fellow. He is just a loner. Don't have much to say to anybody. Stayed by himself most of the time.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever notice any one person there he was more friendly with than the other?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, this boy he rode with.

Mr. BELIN. Frazier?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. Every once in a while I would see him talking to him. Bonnie Ray told me--I never saw him, but Bonnie Ray told me he talked to he and Danny sometimes.

Mr. BELIN. Anyone else?

Mr. GIVENS. Not that I know of; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; that is about it.

Mr. BELIN. Well, Mr. Givens, we surely appreciate your cooperation in coming down here.

Now you and I didn't talk about this at all until we started taking this deposition, did we?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You walked into the room and you raised your right hand and we started taking your testimony. Is that correct?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Have I ever met you before?

Mr. GIVENS. I don't believe so. I don't believe I have.

Mr. BELIN. You have an opportunity to come back here and read this and sign it if you want, or else you can just waive signing and have the court reporter send it directly to Washington. Do you want to come back and read and sign it or do you want to just have the court reporter just send it to Washington?

Mr. GIVENS. Would it be necessary to come back?

Mr. BELIN. No, sir; it is not. You can waive it if you desire to do it. Do you want to waive it?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right, thank you. We will see you.

TESTIMONY OF TROY EUGENE WEST

The testimony of Troy Eugene West was taken at 10:30 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. West, would you raise your right hand, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WEST. I do.

Mr. BELIN. You want to sit down now, please. Will you please state your name for the record? Your name is Troy Eugene West?

Mr. WEST. Troy Eugene West.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Mr. West?

Mr. WEST. Well, I was born in 1907. That would be 57, I think.

Mr. BELIN. Were you born in Texas?

Mr. WEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You go to school at all in Texas?

Mr. WEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?

Mr. WEST. Well, I went to the seventh grade.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. WEST. Well; I had to come out of school and go to work.

Mr. BELIN. You started working then?

Mr. WEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you started working? Where did you work?

Mr. WEST. On the farm.

Mr. BELIN. On the farm?

Mr. WEST. On the farm, yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay on the farm?

Mr. WEST. Oh, I stayed on the farm until way up after I got grown. I was way up past--I guess I was about 24.

Mr. BELIN. When you left the the farm, then what did you do when you left the farm?

Mr. WEST. Well, I came to town after I left.

Mr. BELIN. You came to Dallas?

Mr. WEST. No, sir; little town at Mexia, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay in town there?

Mr. WEST. Well, I lived there for about 7 years, I guess.

Mr. BELIN. You were in town for 7 years, and generally what did you do when you were in town?

Mr. WEST. Well, I worked the express all the time.

Mr. BELIN. For any particular company?

Mr. WEST. I was trying to think of the man's name.

Mr. BELIN. You can't remember it right now?

Mr. WEST. I just can't remember it right now. Been quite a little while.