Chapter X: Part 10

Mr. GREER. I couldn't remember the time.

Mr. SPECTER. You say you were with him most of the time?

Mr. GREER. I was inside the door. I know, I kept the door closed most of the time, let doctors and nurses in and out while he was--while they were working on him. I stayed inside the emergency room door.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any special reason for you to leave part of the time?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't go any farther away than outside the door.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other Secret Service agents inside the emergency room at that time?

Mr. GREER. Not at that time; I was inside the door.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was Mrs. Kennedy at this time?

Mr. GREER. Mrs. Kennedy was outside the door. They got her a chair out there for a little while and then she insisted on coming in and she got in the corner for a little while there and stayed there a little while and I don't quite remember the time she went over to his body but she did go over there, and I don't remember how far along the doctors had been on him when that happened.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to overhear any of the conversations among the doctors in the emergency room?

Mr. GREER. I don't understand anything that they were discussing at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Did a priest or more than one priest come upon the scene?

Mr. GREER. I believe there were two. To the best of my recollection there eventually was two.

Mr. SPECTER. How long after President Kennedy arrived at the emergency room did the priest arrive, if you recollect?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I wouldn't have any idea, it seemed to me it was quite a little while in the matter, probably minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did the priests stay?

Mr. GREER. I don't remember that, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they say anything on leaving or in entering?

Mr. GREER. Not that I heard of personally. I was outside the room when the priest was in there. I wasn't in the emergency room while he was in.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you find that the President had died?

Mr. GREER. When the priest was in to give him the last rites then I knew that.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any reasonably close estimate on when the President did die?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I haven't right off. I would have to look at some reports.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after the President was pronounced dead?

Mr. GREER. We stayed there until everything was settled up. I believe there was a judge came in there and I think, someone came in and made the decisions on removing the body and the casket was brought in, and the body was put in the casket. I had this, his clothing, I kept it in my hand at all times, all the time. Then I went, when they removed the casket from the emergency room, I was in front of it going out to make a path to get it to the ambulance.

So, I helped get it into the ambulance and then I drove a car with some agents and some people right behind the ambulance to Love Field back to the airport again and helped to get the casket aboard the airplane.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present at the swearing in of President Johnson?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I was--we were all asked to come back into the state room but I wasn't in too close. I was in the main part of the plane, as close as I could get to it, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you personally return to Washington, D.C.?

Mr. GREER. I returned on Air Force 1 with the President's remains.

Mr. SPECTER. And at approximately what time did you leave Dallas to fly back?

Mr. GREER. I would have to look in my reports to say exactly. I would have to go back on the times. Two something but I don't remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any idea of the time you arrived in the Washington area?

Mr. GREER. I believe it was 6 or 6:15. As I say I have it in my reports but I haven't looked at the times recently.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you arrive in the Washington area?

Mr. GREER. At Andrews Air Force Base.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next in connection with this matter?

Mr. GREER. I helped to get the casket out of the plane, and put it into a Navy ambulance and then I drove that Navy ambulance to Bethesda Naval Center.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do upon arriving at the Bethesda Naval Center?

Mr. GREER. I stayed in, while the autopsy was being performed, I stayed in the autopsy room with Mr. Kellerman and the doctors and the people who were in there. I stayed in there and observed what was necessary that I could do.

Mr. SPECTER. Were any Secret Service Agents present besides you and Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. GREER. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. At the autopsy?

Mr. GREER. There may have been, Mr. Hill may have come in and out but he didn't stay there. Mr. Kellerman and I stayed permanently the whole time there. There may have been, Mr. Hill may have come in there and have gone back out but he didn't stay in there.

Mr. SPECTER. During the course of the autopsy did you hear any doctor say anything about the wound on the right side of Mr. Kennedy's back?

Mr. GREER. That was the first time that I had ever seen it, when the doctors were performing the autopsy, they saw this hole in the right shoulder or back of the head, and in the back, and that was the first I had known that he was ever shot there, and they brought it to our attention or discussed it there a little bit.

Mr. SPECTER. What conversation was there concerning the wound on the right back?

Mr. GREER. Well, the doctors and people who were performing the autopsy, when they turned the body apparently over they discovered that this wound was in the back, and they thought that they probably could get a bullet out of there, and it took a lot of--then they took more X-rays, they took a lot of X-rays, we looked at them and couldn't find the trace of any bullet anywhere in the X-rays at all, nothing showed on the X-rays where this bullet or lead could have gone.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately where in the President's back was the bullet hole?

Mr. GREER. It was, to the best of my recollection it was, back here, just in the soft part of that shoulder.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the upper right shoulder area?

Mr. GREER. Upper right, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any effort made to probe that wound by any doctor?

Mr. GREER. I believe, yes, I believe the doctors probed to see if they could find that there was a bullet there.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know which doctor that was?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I don't, I don't have their names at this time.

Mr. SPECTER. Did any doctor make any statement about the results of his probing effort?

Mr. GREER. I questioned one of the doctors in there about that, and when we found out that they had found a bullet in Dallas, I questioned the doctor about it and he said if they were using pressure on the chest that it could very well have been, come back out, where it went in at, that is what they said at the time.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. SPECTER. Was anything said about any channel being present in the body for the bullet to have gone on through the back?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I hadn't heard anything like that, any trace of it going on through.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you just mention, Mr. Greer, a hole in the President's head in addition to the large area of the skull which was shot away?

Mr. GREER. No. I had just seen that, you know, the head was damaged in all this part of it but I believe looking at the X-rays, I looked at the X-rays when they were taken in the autopsy room, and the person who does that type work showed us the trace of it because there would be little specks of lead where the bullet had come from here and it came to the--they showed where it didn't come on through. It came to a sinus cavity or something they said, over the eye.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the right eye.

Mr. GREER. I may be wrong.

Mr. SPECTER. You don't know which eye?

Mr. GREER. I don't know which eye, I may be wrong. But they showed us the trace of it coming through but there were very little small specks on the X-rays that these professionals knew what course that the bullet had taken, the lead.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe in very general terms what injury you observed as to the President's head during the course of the autopsy?

Mr. GREER. I would--to the best of my recollection it was in this part of the head right here.

Mr. SPECTER. Upper right?

Mr. GREER. Upper right side.

Mr. SPECTER. Upper right side, going toward the rear.

And what was the condition of the skull at that point?

Mr. GREER. The skull was completely--this part was completely gone.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, aside from that opening which you have described and you have indicated a circle with a diameter of approximately 5 inches, would you say that is about what you have indicated there?

Mr. GREER. Approximately I would say 5 inches; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other opening or hole of any sort in the head itself?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't. No other one.

Mr. SPECTER. Specifically did you observe a hole which would be below the large area of skull which was absent?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to look in the back of the head immediately below where the skull was missing?

Mr. GREER. No; I can't remember even examining the head that close at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. When President Kennedy was being treated in the emergency room at Parkland Hospital, were any pictures or X-rays taken of him there?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; not that I know of. I didn't see any being taken.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he ever turned over that you observed while being treated at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. GREER. No, sir. I can't recollect him ever being turned over.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any recollection that he was in fact not turned over?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't even say. I didn't see them turn him over in any way in my vision, although my back was to him quite often and because I was attending to the door and they could have done it.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he on a stretcher at the time he was being worked on at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. GREER. I can't remember whether they changed him from a stretcher to a table. I am not sure on that.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, as to the return of the President's automobile to Washington, do you know how that was accomplished?

Mr. GREER. It was driven to Love Field, and put aboard the same C-130 it was taken out on and flown back to Andrews Air Force Base.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know when it was returned from Dallas to the Washington area?

Mr. GREER. I believe it was returned shortly after, it left shortly after, the President's plane left, was flown back.

Mr. SPECTER. I hand you two photographs marked Commission Exhibit No. 352 and Commission Exhibit No. 353.

Do those photographs represent the condition of the back seat of the President's car at some time?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; they do.

Mr. SPECTER. And at what time do those pictures look just as the back seat of the President's car looked?

Mr. GREER. It looked like that when it came back from Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Did it look like that immediately after President Kennedy was removed from the back seat?

Mr. GREER. I wasn't there any more, sir. I was with the President after they lifted him out. I didn't see the car after he had been removed.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe the back seat of the car at any time from the time you arrived at Parkland Hospital until you observed the automobile in Washington?

Mr. GREER. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. On November 23?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. By the way, Mr. Greer, how much, approximately, does or did the President's automobile weigh?

Mr. GREER. It weighed between--well, for flight reason we said 8,000, but it wasn't that much. It probably was 7,500. We had extra weight on it.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to tell the Commission the dimensions of the automobile, indicating its length?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. It is 21 feet 8 inches long.

Mr. SPECTER. And how wide?

Mr. GREER. I would have to go back for the width on it. I have it all in black and white in the office, but I haven't got it with me in my head right now; I am sorry.

Mr. SPECTER. Could three people sit comfortably in the front seat of the automobile?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it was wide enough for three. We many times had an aide in there; many times, an aide rode in the front.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it as wide or wider than, say, a Cadillac automobile?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; it would be probably the same width.

Representative BOGGS. Was that car specially made for the President?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it was a specially built car.

Representative BOGGS. Was it a Lincoln Continental?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; a Lincoln Continental.

Representative BOGGS. How did it differ from the ordinary Lincoln?

Mr. GREER. Well, Lincoln doesn't make a seven-passenger car, and this was a seven-passenger car. The back seat on this car would raise 8 inches. It was electric, and you could lift, you could raise, the seat up 8 inches from the ground, from the floorboards. It had a little step that went with it. The President could raise it up and down himself. He had a button alongside that would cause it to go up and down when the top wasn't down. It wouldn't go up and down when the top was down. But when it was off he could raise it up or down, and it would be above the other seat.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether the seat was actually raised at the time of the assassination?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't say right off. I don't believe it was, but I wouldn't know.

Mr. SPECTER. Going back to the shots themselves, Mr. Greer, do you have any reaction as to the direction from which the shots came?

Mr. GREER. They sounded like they were behind me, to the right rear of me.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that be as to all three shots?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. They sounded, everything sounded, behind me, to me. That was my thought, train of thought, that they were behind me.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any reaction or thought at any time since the assassination that the shots came from the front of the car?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I had never even the least thought that they could come. There was no thought in my mind other than that they were behind me.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Boggs, are there any questions you would like to ask the agent?

Representative BOGGS. I don't think so, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford.

Representative FORD. Did you ever have any thought there were more than three shots?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I never did.

Representative FORD. Did you positively identify the fact that there were one, two, three, or was there one, and then a delay, and then a flurry?

Mr. GREER. To the best of my recollection, Congressman, was that the last two were closer together than the first one. It seemed like the first one, and then there was, you know, bang, bang, just right behind it almost. The two seemed, the last two seemed, closer to me than the other.

Representative BOGGS. Did you speed up after you heard the first shot?

Mr. GREER. After I heard the second. The first one didn't sink into me, didn't give me the thought that it was a shot. I thought it was the backfire of a motorcycle. But when I heard the second one and glanced over my shoulder, I knew something was wrong then. I didn't know how bad anyone was injured or anything, but I knew there was something wrong, and right away after the second one I accelerated as fast as I could.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Craig, would you like to ask any questions?

Mr. CRAIG. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

With respect to the position of the President's car that you were driving as it approached the underpass, you state now that you couldn't fix any specific distance. But would you say it was less than a mile that the President's car was from the overpass?

Mr. GREER. Oh, definitely. I couldn't say in feet or yards, but it was within--it was feet. I would say probably a hundred or 200 feet. It could be within that; it was definitely right up close to me, but I----

Mr. CRAIG. With respect to your vision, was it unobstructed down the roadway, looking at the overpass?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; there were no obstructions in the road that I could see.

Mr. CRAIG. As I recall your testimony, you were actually observing the overpass to see if there was any person there.

Mr. GREER. People up there at that time I would be doubtful of going underneath.

Mr. CRAIG. Yes, sir. And you say now you do not recollect that you saw anyone there?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. CRAIG. You said also, I believe, that it was some time now since you made that observation. Did you make any report of any kind with respect to anyone being on the overpass immediately after this incident?

Mr. GREER. No, sir.

Mr. CRAIG. You made no written report to anybody as to whether or not there were people on the overpass or were not people?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I haven't.

Mr. CRAIG. Do you believe if you had observed people on the overpass at that time you would now remember it?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I believe I would; yes, sir.

Mr. CRAIG. If you had observed people on the overpass as you proceeded toward it, and they were other than a policeman or policemen or some other law-enforcement agent, what would you have done?

Mr. GREER. Well, I try never to go underneath a bridge if there are people up over it, if there are people who I don't know as law enforcement. I try not to go underneath them. I will probably veer to one side of them at any time. That is a matter of our training, that we try not to go underneath anyone with an open car where anyone could drop something.

Mr. CRAIG. Would you ever stop, if necessary, if you thought there were people up there that you couldn't veer around?

Mr. GREER. If there was any danger there I would have to either change my way of traveling. I have never had it happen, and never had any reason to, but we try, I try, not to go underneath a group of people standing on any overpass at any time. I try to move over, if the condition permits me to. Sometimes, when the road is too narrow, I couldn't. But that is part of our procedure, I think, to see that no one is on an overpass.

Mr. CRAIG. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. If there are no further questions----

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, may I ask one or two other questions?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. I have just noted that we have the report of the FBI which bears Bureau file No. 105-S, as it appears here somewhat indistinct, S-2555, "Report of Special Agent Robert P. Gemberling, dated December 10, 1963," and this refers, Mr. Greer, to an interview of you by Special Agents Francis X. O'Neill, Jr., and James W. Sibert. There is a report here of an interview of you and of Special Agent Kellerman, and the date here is listed as November 22, 1963, and there is this reference made in the report, and I will quote it verbatim:

"Greer stated that he first heard what he thought was possibly a motorcycle backfire, and glanced around and noticed that the President had evidently been hit. He thereafter got on the radio and communicated with the other vehicles stating that they desired to get the President to the hospital immediately."

Mr. GREER. I didn't go on the radio. It was Mr. Kellerman who done the radio talking. I didn't. It is a misquote if I done it. I didn't get on the radio. Mr. Kellerman did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever make this statement, Mr. Greer, to Special Agent O'Neill or Sibert?

Mr. GREER. Those two agents were in during the autopsy; those two agents were in the autopsy room, with Mr. Kellerman and I, all night. Mr. Sibert and O'Neill were both in the autopsy room with us during that time, and the only time that any of us, either Mr. Kellerman or I, we never left the room, one or the other. We went and got some coffee and came right back, something like that, and the FBI did the same thing. One of them left; the other stayed.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you now recollect whether or not you ever said to them that you were the one who communicated on the radio with the other vehicles?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I know I never remember saying that to them because I know I didn't do it. So that is how I know that I didn't say it, because I know I didn't do it. Mr. Kellerman did.

Mr. SPECTER. And the first part refers to your noticing that the President evidently had been hit. Did you ever----

Mr. GREER. I have no recollection of ever telling the agents that I said that; no, sir. If I said it, I don't remember saying it. The Governor was the person that I knew was--when we were first in trouble, when I see the Governor.

Mr. SPECTER. To the best of your current recollection, did you notice that the President had been hit?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't know how badly he was injured or anything other than that. I didn't know.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you know at all, from the glance which you have described that he had been hit or injured in any way?

Mr. GREER. I knew he was injured in some way, but I didn't know how bad or what.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you know that?

Mr. GREER. If I remember now, I just don't remember how I knew, but I knew we were in trouble. I knew that he was injured, but I can't remember, recollect, just how I knew there were injuries in there. I didn't know who all was hurt, even.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to recollect whether you saw the President after the shots as you were proceeding toward Parkland Hospital?

Mr. GREER. No; I don't remember ever seeing him any more until I got to the hospital, and he was lying across the seat, you know, and that is the first I had seen of him.

Mr. SPECTER. Your best recollection is, then, that you had the impression he was injured but you couldn't ascertain the source of that information?

Mr. GREER. Right. I couldn't ascertain the source.

Representative FORD. Did you hear the President say anything after the first shot?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I never heard him say anything; never at any time did I ever hear him say anything.

Representative BOGGS. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything to you while you were driving to the hospital?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; she didn't.

Representative BOGGS. Did Mrs. Connally say anything to you?

Mr. GREER. No. Mrs. Connally didn't say anything, either. There is quite a little distance between the front and the back seat of that car. As you know, it is 21 feet long, and you are quite a little bit away, and there was the sirens were all going. The following car had a siren wide--the big one on the fender was wide open. There wasn't much chance for me to hear anything, and I was really occupied with getting there just as fast as I could and not seeing that anything happened, avoid an accident or anything like that.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a siren on your car?

Mr. GREER. I didn't have mine going. There is a siren on that car, but I didn't even reach down to work it.

Representative BOGGS. There was another agent in the car with you?

Mr. GREER. Mr. Kellerman; yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. And after the first shot, did he say to speed up or what?

Mr. GREER. I believe it was at the second that he and I both simultaneously--he said, "Get out of here fast," and I speeded up as fast as I could then and as fast as the car would go.

The CHAIRMAN. If there are no further questions, thank you very much, Mr. Greer.

Mr. GREER. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be excused.

Mr. GREER. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We will take a short recess.

(Short recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hill, come right in, sir. Would you raise your right hand, please, and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HILL. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you be seated, please, Mr. Hill?

Mr. HILL. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Specter.

TESTIMONY OF CLINTON J. HILL, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Hill, would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. HILL. Clinton J. Hill.

Mr. SPECTER. How old are you, sir?

Mr. HILL. Thirty-two.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your educational background?

Mr. HILL. I went to secondary educational high school in Washburn, N. Dak., and then went on to Concordia College, Moorehead, Minn. I was a history and education major, with a minor in physical education.

Mr. SPECTER. What year were you graduated?

Mr. HILL. 1954.

Mr. SPECTER. What have you done since the time of graduation from college, Mr. Hill?

Mr. HILL. I went into the Army in 1954; remained in the Army until 1957. Then I couldn't determine what I wanted to do, whether to go to law school or not, and I took a couple of odd jobs. I worked for a finance company at one time. Then I went to work for the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad as a special agent in the spring of 1958, and entered the Secret Service in September 1958.

Mr. SPECTER. You have been with the Secret Service since September 1958 to the present time?

Mr. HILL. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline for the Commission your duties with the Secret Service during your tenure there?

Mr. HILL. I entered the Secret Service in Denver, and during that period I did both investigative and protection work. I was assigned to Mrs. Doud, the mother-in-law of President Eisenhower. I attended the Treasury Law Enforcement School during my first year, and was sent to the White House for a 30-day temporary assignment at the White House in June 1959. In November of 1959, November 1, I was transferred to the White House on a permanent basis as a special agent assigned to the White House detail. I have been at the White House since that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you assigned to duties on the trip of President Kennedy to Texas in November 1963?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any special duty assigned to you at that time?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. In connection with the trip?

Mr. HILL. I was responsible for the protection of Mrs. Kennedy.

Mr. SPECTER. And, in a general way, what does that sort of an assignment involve?

Mr. HILL. I tried to remain as close to her at all times as possible, and in this particular trip that meant being with the President because all of their doings on this trip were together rather than separate. I would go over her schedule to make sure she knows what she is expected to do; discuss it with her; remain in her general area all the time; protect her from any danger.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us, in a general way, what were the activities of the President and Mrs. Kennedy on the morning of Friday, November 22, before they arrived in Dallas?

Mr. HILL. I went to the fifth floor, I believe it was, where the President and Mrs. Kennedy were staying in the Texas Hotel in Fort Worth at 8:15 in the morning. President Kennedy was to go downstairs and across the street to make a speech to a gathering in a parking lot. I remained on the floor during the period the President was gone.

It was raining outside, I recall. About 9:25 I received word from Special Agent Duncan that the President requested Mrs. Kennedy to come to the mezzanine, where a breakfast was being held in his honor, and where he was about to speak. I went in and advised Mrs. Kennedy of this, and took her down to where the President was speaking; remained with her adjacent to the head table in this particular area during the speech; and accompanied she and the President back up to the, I believe it was, the fifth floor of the hotel, their residential area; remained on that floor until we left, went downstairs, got into the motorcade, and departed the hotel for the airport to leave Fort Worth for Dallas.

We were airborne approximately 11:20, I believe, in Air Force 1. I was in the aft compartment, which is part of the residential compartment, and we arrived in Dallas at 11:40.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe, in a general way, what the President and Mrs. Kennedy did upon arrival in Dallas?

Mr. HILL. They debarked the rear ramp of the aircraft first, followed by Governor and Mrs. Connally, various Congressmen and Senators. And Special Agent in Charge Kellerman and myself went down the ramp. There was a small reception committee at the foot of the ramp, and somebody gave Mrs. Kennedy some red roses, I recall. I walked immediately to the followup car and placed my topcoat, which is a raincoat, and small envelope containing some information concerning the Dallas stop in the followup car, returning to where the President and Mrs. Kennedy were at that time greeting a crippled lady in a wheelchair.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you estimate the size of the crowd to have been at Dallas that morning?

Mr. HILL. At the airport?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HILL. It is rather difficult to say. They were behind a chain-link fence, not on the airport ramp itself, and they were jammed up against the fence holding placards, and many young people in the crowd. I would say there were probably 2,000 people there.

Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did the motorcade depart from Love Field to Dallas?

Mr. HILL. Approximately 11:55.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know approximately how many automobiles there were in the motorcade?

Mr. HILL. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. In which car in the motorcade were you positioned?

Mr. HILL. I was working the followup car, which is the car immediately behind the Presidential car.

Mr. SPECTER. And how many cars are there ahead of the followup car, then, in the entire motorcade?

Mr. HILL. There was a lead car ahead of the President's car, the President's car, then this particular followup car.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether there was any car in advance of the car termed the lead car?

Mr. HILL. There could have been a pilot car, but I am not sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, approximately how far in front of the President's car did the lead car stay during the course of the motorcade?

Mr. HILL. I would say a half block, maybe.

Mr. SPECTER. And how far was the President's car in front of the President's followup car during the course of the motorcade?

Mr. HILL. Approximately 5 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there some well-established practice as to the spacing between the President's car and the President's followup car?

Mr. HILL. It would depend upon speed. We attempt to stay as close to the President's car as practical. At high rates of speed it is rather difficult to stay close because of the danger involved. Slow speeds, the followup car stays as close as possible so that the agents on the followup car can get to the Presidential car as quickly as possible.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the first car to the rear of the President's followup car?

Mr. HILL. The Vice-Presidential automobile.

Mr. SPECTER. What car was immediately behind the Vice President's automobile?

Mr. HILL. The Vice-Presidential followup car.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what cars in the Dallas motorcade followed the Vice President's followup car?

Mr. HILL. Well, I couldn't say which car any individual rode in after that particular automobile, but I could say they were occupied by members of the staff, both President Kennedy's and Vice President Johnson's; Congressmen and Senators who were on this particular trip; newspaper personnel who were on this trip.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you identify the occupants of the President's followup car and indicate where each was in the automobile.

Mr. HILL. The car itself was driven by Special Agent Sam Kinney, and Assistant to the Special Agent in Charge Emory Roberts was riding in the right front seat. I was assigned to work the left running board of the automobile, the forward portion of that running board. McIntyre was assigned to work the rear portion of the left running board. Special Agent John Ready was assigned the forward portion of the right running board; Special Agent Paul Landis was assigned the rear portion of the right running board. There were two jump seats, and they were occupied by two Presidential aides, Mr. O'Donnell and Mr. Powers. Mr. Powers was sitting on the right-hand side; Mr. O'Donnell on the left. The rear seat was occupied, left rear by Special Agent Hickey, right rear, Special Agent Bennett.

Mr. SPECTER. How were the agents armed at that time?

Mr. HILL. All the agents were armed with their hand weapons.

Mr. SPECTER. And is there any weapon in the automobile in addition to the hand weapons?

Mr. HILL. Yes. There is an AR-15, which is an automatic rifle, and a shotgun.

Mr. SPECTER. And where is the AR-15 kept?

Mr. HILL. Between the two agents in the rear seat.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the shotgun; where is that kept?

Mr. HILL. In a compartment immediately in front of the jump seats.

Mr. SPECTER. Is the President's followup car a specially constructed automobile?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is the make and model and general description of that vehicle?

Mr. HILL. It is a 1955 Cadillac, nine-passenger touring sedan. It is a convertible type.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that automobile flown in specially from Washington for the occasion?

Mr. HILL. Yes; it was, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how that automobile was transported to Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. HILL. Generally, it is flown in a C-130 by the Air Force. I am not sure how on this particular occasion.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe, in a general way, the composition of the crowds en route from Love Field down to the center of Dallas, please?

Mr. HILL. Well, when we left Love Field, we went away from the crowd to get to the exit point at Love Field, and there were no crowds at all, and then we, departing Love Field, found the crowds were sporadic. There were people here and there. Some places they had built up and other places they were thinned out. The speed of the motorcade was adjusted accordingly. Whenever there were large groups of people, the motorcade slowed down to give the people an opportunity to view the President. When there were not many people along the side of the street, we speeded up. We didn't really hit the crowds until we hit Main Street.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the maximum speed of the automobile from the time you left Love Field until the time you arrived at downtown Dallas?

Mr. HILL. I would say we never ran any faster than 25 to 30 miles per hour.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the minimum speed during this same interval?

Mr. HILL. Twelve to fifteen miles per hour. We did stop.

Mr. SPECTER. On what occasion did you stop?

Mr. HILL. Between Love Field and Main Street, downtown Dallas, on the right-hand side of the street there were a group of people with a long banner which said, "Please, Mr. President, stop and shake our hands." And the President requested the motorcade to stop, and he beckoned to the people and asked them to come and shake his hand, which they did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the President disembark from his automobile at that time?

Mr. HILL. No; he remained in his seat.

Mr. SPECTER. At that time what action, if any, did you take?

Mr. HILL. I jumped from the followup car and ran up to the left rear portion of the automobile with my back toward Mrs. Kennedy viewing those persons on the left-hand side of the street.

Mr. SPECTER. What action was taken by any other Secret Service agent which you observed at that time?

Mr. HILL. Special Agent Ready, who was working the forward portion of the right running board, did the same thing, only on the President's side, placed his back toward the car, and viewed the people facing the President. Assistant in Charge Kellerman opened the door of the President's car and stepped out on the street.

Mr. SPECTER. What action was taken by Special Agent McIntyre, if you know?

Mr. HILL. I do not know.

Mr. SPECTER. How about Special Agent Landis?

Mr. HILL. I do not know.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your normal procedure for action in the event the President's car is stopped, as it did in that event?

Mr. HILL. Special Agent McIntyre would normally jump off the car and run to the forward portion of the left-hand side of the car; Special Agent Landis would move to the right-hand forward portion of the automobile.

Mr. SPECTER. Did anything else which was unusual occur en route from Love Field to the downtown area of Dallas?

Mr. HILL. Before we hit Main Street?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HILL. Not that I recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to leave the President's followup car at any time?

Mr. HILL. When we finally did reach Main Street, the crowds had built up to a point where they were surging into the street. We had motorcycles running adjacent to both the Presidential automobile and the followup car, as well as in front of the Presidential automobile, and because of the crowds in the street, the President's driver, Special Agent Greer, was running the car more to the left-hand side of the street more than he was to the right to keep the President as far away from the crowd as possible, and because of this the motorcycles on the left-hand side could not get past the crowd and alongside the car, and they were forced to drop back. I jumped from the followup car, ran up and got on top of the rear portion of the Presidential automobile to be close to Mrs. Kennedy in the event that someone attempted to grab her from the crowd or throw something in the car.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say the rear portion of the automobile, can you, by referring to Commission Exhibit No. 345, heretofore identified as the President's automobile, specify by penciled "X" where you stood?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir [indicating].

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe for the record just what area it is back there on which you stood?

Mr. HILL. That is a step built into the rear bumper of the automobile, and on top of the rear trunk there is a handguard which you grab for and hang onto when you are standing up.

Mr. SPECTER. Are identical objects of those descriptions existing on each side of the President's car?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; they do.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any other occasion en route from Love Field to downtown Dallas to leave the followup car and mount that portion of the President's car?

Mr. HILL. I did the same thing approximately four times.

Mr. SPECTER. What are the standard regulations and practices, if any, governing such an action on your part?

Mr. HILL. It is left to the agent's discretion more or less to move to that particular position when he feels that there is a danger to the President; to place himself as close to the President or the First Lady as my case was, as possible, which I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Are those practices specified in any written documents of the Secret Service?

Mr. HILL. No; they are not.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, had there been any instruction or comment about your performance of that type of a duty with respect to anything that President Kennedy himself had said in the period immediately preceding the trip to Texas?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; there was. The preceding Monday, the President was on a trip in Tampa, Fla., and he requested that the agents not ride on either of those two steps.

Mr. SPECTER. And to whom did the President make that request?

Mr. HILL. Assistant Special Agent in Charge Boring.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Assistant Special Agent in Charge Boring the individual in charge of that trip to Florida?

Mr. HILL. He was riding in the Presidential automobile on that trip in Florida, and I presume that he was. I was not along.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, on that occasion would he have been in a position comparable to that occupied by Special Agent Kellerman on this trip to Texas?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; the same position.

Mr. SPECTER. And Special Agent Boring informed you of that instruction by President Kennedy?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he make it a point to inform other special agents of that same instruction?

Mr. HILL. I believe that he did, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And, as a result of what President Kennedy said to him, did he instruct you to observe that Presidential admonition?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How, if at all, did that instruction of President Kennedy affect your action and--your action in safeguarding him on this trip to Dallas?

Mr. HILL. We did not ride on the rear portions of the automobile. I did on those four occasions because the motorcycles had to drop back and there was no protection on the left-hand side of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. When the President's automobile was proceeding in downtown Dallas, what was the ordinary speed of the automobile, based on your best estimate?

Mr. HILL. We were running approximately 12 to 15 miles per hour, I would say.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you a document which we have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 354, which is an aerial photograph identical with the photograph already marked as Commission Exhibit No. 347.

(The photograph referred to was marked Exhibit No. 354 for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. I ask you if, referring only to Exhibit 354, you are able to identify what that scene is.

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to indicate the route which the President's motorcade followed through that area?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. SPECTER. And what does that scene depict--what city is it?

Mr. HILL. That is Dallas, Tex. It shows Main Street, Houston Street, and Elm Street.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you write on the picture itself where Main Street is? Would you now write, as best you can, which street is Houston Street?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you now write which street is Elm?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you indicate, if you know, which is a generally northerly direction on that picture?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. What was the condition of the crowd as the motorcade made a right-hand turn off of Main Street onto Houston?

Mr. HILL. The crowd was very large on Main Street, and it was thinning down considerably when we reached the end of it, and turned right on Houston Street. Noticeably on my side of the car, which was the left-hand side of the street.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your best estimate as to the speed of the President's car at the time it made the right-hand turn onto Houston Street?

Mr. HILL. In the curve?

Mr. SPECTER. The speed--in the curve itself; yes.

Mr. HILL. We were running generally 12 to 15 miles per hour. I would say that in the curve we perhaps slowed to maybe 10 miles per hour.

Mr. SPECTER. And how far behind the President's car was the Presidential followup car as the turn was made onto Houston Street?

Mr. HILL. Four to five feet, at the most.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph of a building which has already been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 348, and ask you if at this time you can identify what that building is.

Mr. HILL. I believe I can, sir; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what building is it?

Mr. HILL. It is the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, does that building appear on the Commission Exhibit No. 354?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to notice the Texas School Book Depository Building as you proceeded in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. It was immediately in front of us and to our left.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice anything unusual about it?

Mr. HILL. Nothing more unusual than any other building along the way.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your general practice, if any, in observing such buildings along the route of a Presidential motorcade?

Mr. HILL. We scan the buildings and look specifically for open windows, for people hanging out, and there had been, on almost every building along the way, people hanging out, windows open.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you observe, as you recollect at this moment, any open windows in the Texas School Depository Building?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; there were.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to recollect specifically which windows were open at this time?

Mr. HILL. No, sir; I cannot.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of the crowd along the streets, if any, along Elm Street, in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. HILL. On the left-hand side of the street, which is the side I was on, the crowd was very thin. And it was a general park area. There were people scattered throughout the entire park.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what is your best estimate of the speed of the President's automobile as it turned left off of Houston onto Elm Street?

Mr. HILL. We were running still 12 to 15 miles per hour, but in the curve I believe we slowed down maybe to 10, maybe to 9.

Mr. SPECTER. How far back of the President's automobile was the Presidential followup car when the President's followup car had just straightened out on Elm Street?

Mr. HILL. Approximately 5 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as the motorcade proceeded at that point, tell us what happened.

Mr. HILL. Well, as we came out of the curve, and began to straighten up, I was viewing the area which looked to be a park. There were people scattered throughout the entire park. And I heard a noise from my right rear, which to me seemed to be a firecracker. I immediately looked to my right, and, in so doing, my eyes had to cross the Presidential limousine and I saw President Kennedy grab at himself and lurch forward and to the left.

Mr. SPECTER. Why don't you just proceed, in narrative form, to tell us?

Representative BOGGS. This was the first shot?

Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car.

Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left. Mrs. Kennedy had jumped up from the seat and was, it appeared to me, reaching for something coming off the right rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail, when she noticed that I was trying to climb on the car. She turned toward me and I grabbed her and put her back in the back seat, crawled up on top of the back seat and lay there.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, referring to Commission Exhibit No. 354, would you mark an "X", as best you can, at the spot where the President's automobile was at the time the first shot occurred?

Mr. HILL. Approximately there.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you mark a "Y" at the approximate position where the President's car was at the second shot you have described? What is your best estimate of the speed of the President's car at the precise time of the first shot, Mr. Hill?

Mr. HILL. We were running between 12 to 15 miles per hour, but no faster than 15 miles per hour.

Mr. SPECTER. How many shots have you described that you heard?

Mr. HILL. Two.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear any more than two shots?

Mr. HILL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your best estimate of the speed of the President's automobile at the time of the second shot?

Mr. HILL. Approximately the same speed as that of the first--although at the time that I jumped on the car, the car had surged forward. The President at that time had been shot in the head.

Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did the car accelerate--that is, the President's car?

Mr. HILL. Almost simultaneously.

Mr. SPECTER. You testified just a moment ago that the President grabbed at himself immediately after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker.

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us with more particularity in what way he grabbed at himself?

Mr. HILL. He grabbed in this general area.

Mr. SPECTER. You are indicating that your right hand is coming up to your--to the throat?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And the left hand crosses right under the right hand.

Mr. HILL. To the chest area.

Mr. SPECTER. To the chest area. Was there any movement of the President's head or shoulders immediately after the first shot, that you recollect?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. Immediately when I saw him, he was like this, and going left and forward.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a little fall to the left front.

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. This was after a head wound?

Mr. HILL. No, sir.

Representative BOGGS. Before the head wound?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; this was the first shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what is your best estimate on the timespan between the first firecracker-type noise you heard and the second shot which you have described?

Mr. HILL. Approximately 5 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did the impact on the President's head occur simultaneously, before, or after the second noise which you have described?

Mr. HILL. Almost simultaneously.

Representative FORD. Did you see the President put his hands to his throat and chest while you were still on the followup car, or after you had left it?