Chapter XXXI: Part 31

Mr. PAINE. Well, it made me realize that he would like to be active in some kind of--activist. It made me also feel that he wasn't very well connected with a group or he wouldn't have such a tenuous way of communication, and I thought it was rather childish to someone like Dick Tracy, attract a child to Dick Tracy, to think that that was his bona fide way of being communicated or being a member of this Communist cause or something.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any other discussions with him about literature that he received?

Mr. PAINE. I didn't know. Other literature, I was somewhat interested in what the Russian publications were saying but I didn't take it up with him. I wanted Ruth to translate those.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe any Cuban literature?

Mr. PAINE. No, I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know that he ever received any such literature?

Mr. PAINE. No, I never, until after the assassination, I had never thought of Cuba either in connection with Oswald or in connection with the Communists or the Communist Party.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit 128 which is ENCO Map of the Dallas-Fort Worth area, and ask you if you recognize that map.

Mr. PAINE. This is the kind of map that I always used, stopping in stations when I am out of one so I always have one in my car, and when the FBI showed me this particular map, which I trust is the same one I looked at before. I found on the back side a mark where it shows the whole map of the whole area, the Dallas-Fort Worth area, a little mark where our house is, that is the kind of mark that I would make when I was trying to buy some land earlier and had in mind for a long time and I wanted to find the location that was accessible to the places I would then want to go.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us----

Mr. PAINE. This mark is still here.

Representative FORD. This is the mark or can you identify that mark that you placed on this map?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think I see a mark here of the sort which looks reasonable to me. I think it is the only mark on this side of the map.

Generally, I didn't make marks on the other side of the map.

Mr. LIEBELER. In your statement referring to one side of the map you were referring to the side that shows a map of the entire Fort Worth-Dallas area, is that correct?

Mr. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you say as best you can see there is only one mark on this side of the map?

Mr. PAINE. That is the only one that is here, that I remember having found. I don't remember finding another one.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember putting that mark on the map?

Mr. PAINE. I remember putting--I think I put this kind of mark on more than one map. That is our house. It then helps locate it with regard to all the arteries and what not that lead to various places.

Mr. LIEBELER. You do think then it is probable that you did place the mark on the map that indicates the location of your house in Irving, Tex.; is that correct?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think that is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not Oswald ever came into possession of this map?

Mr. PAINE. And Ruth gave Oswald a map to--she told me she gave him a map, and this is the kind we have around the house, the best one she could get in the service station, to help him find a job, or help him when he was searching for a job.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other conversations with your wife about the map before the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. No, I don't believe she told me she had given him the map. I don't believe we discussed it at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you open the map to the portion that shows the area of Dallas. I call your attention to a mark at the intersection of Boll Street and San Jacinto, and ask you if you have any recollection of placing that mark on the map?

Mr. PAINE. No, I don't have any recollection of placing that mark on the map.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any circumstances that might make it likely that you placed that mark on the map?

Mr. PAINE. I could have placed that mark on the map when I was looking for properties. I went down to the courthouse to get plats of the areas that I was thinking of buying, and they had a copy of the plat, and so they sent it out late on Saturday, short of 12 o'clock, and just short of closing, and it was a reproduction company at that address or near that address.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the L. L. Ridgway Co.?

Mr. PAINE. Yes. That is the company that I am referring to. I don't know exactly.

Mr. LIEBELER. But it is near the intersection we have just referred to?

Mr. PAINE. I will take your word for that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know that it is?

Mr. PAINE. No, I don't know. I think the FBI man said it was. I hadn't looked into it and didn't check it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You haven't any knowledge at this point whether the Ridgway company is in this intersection or not?

Mr. PAINE. I remember it is right beside the expressway and in about that area. I don't remember the names of the roads.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think it is probable or improbable that you placed the mark on the map, the one we have just been talking about, at Boll and San Jacinto Streets?

Mr. PAINE. I remember in asking the clerk where it was, and I had a map of this sort, that was also in August when I was looking for places. I would have guessed I would not. I would have been able to see where it was and know in my mind where I wanted to go.

Mr. DULLES. Is that the same kind of a mark or a different kind of mark that is on the other side of the map to which we have just referred, the area map?

Mr. PAINE. It is a different mark. That mark that is on the other side of the map to which we have just referred, the area map, was our house. So I made a little square that I can see and indicate a house rather than--generally I don't make marks on maps. I look up where I want to go and I go.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife tell you when she had given this map to Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. I suppose she gave it very soon after he came back and started looking for work.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you said it was August of 1963 when you were looking to find this reproduction place; is that correct?

Mr. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. I call your attention to a mark on Hillcrest and Asbury, and I ask you if you put that mark on the map?

Mr. PAINE. I don't recall making that mark. I think it is different from the other mark, and it is--if I were to make a mark that is more the way I would make a mark. It also happens to be the cafeteria where I like to eat, where you can get all you want for a dollar there, and it is a very good meal. So I would be interested in that, in locating it. Here is one of the places where I was thinking of buying property.

Mr. DULLES. Is there a mark there at that place where you were interested in buying property?

Mr. PAINE. I don't think there is. I almost guessed that I didn't have that map at that time. Also I was not living--I would guess for a further reason that I would not have this map on the time of that August date was because I hadn't been living--I had been living in this apartment, and I had a map over there, and I probably didn't have the same map that Ruth had around her house.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you think it is probably likely you didn't place any marks on that map other than the one indicating your home?

Mr. PAINE. That is correct. In other words, I think that mark was placed there quite a long time back, because I have been interested in this locating of property for several years.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is the mark at the Hillcrest Avenue spot, a mark of the type that you usually make?

Mr. PAINE. And, as I say, I don't usually make a mark, but I think I might more likely have made that kind of mark, more than some of the others--somebody else has put marks here with a ball-point pen which are not the kind I would make.

Mr. LIEBELER. In reviewing this map with the FBI, were there any other marks on the map that it was developed that you possibly put on the map other than the ones we have discussed?

Mr. PAINE. I don't now remember any others. This one of the cafeteria there is not exactly at the right spot.

Mr. LIEBELER. The mark at Hillcrest Avenue?

Mr. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. As you look at the map now do you see any other marks which you think you might have put on the map?

Mr. PAINE. No. We went over it at mealtime in considerable detail, he having located most of the marks he could find on the map--no, I guess it was still marked up like this. We didn't find anything that I can remember there that I might have put on there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, on the basis of your knowledge of Oswald and your meeting with him, and your familiarity with him prior to the time of the assassination, did you form an opinion about him as to whether or not he would be likely to commit an act such as this, or whether he would be likely to take the life of any human being?

Mr. PAINE. It was a question we had to consider when we considered having Marina at our house. So Ruth and I discussed that, whether he was a dangerous person, and he didn't seem to be dangerous. Of course, I also felt that I wasn't a particular opponent or foe of his. Helping his family we were quite free and would let him, roughly, think of our arguments. I talked about getting angry, but, for the most part, it was a cordial relationship, so I didn't sense--he didn't display hostility to me or to Ruth, and he was nice with the children, and while they were living with us, he was nice to Marina also. He was during this time when he returned from Mexico, he was quite a reasonable person. He was only unreasonable the first time I had met him.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you have this discussion with your wife concerning whether or not you should let Marina live with you? Was that before they came back from New Orleans?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you concluded at that time there was no reason why Marina should not come there; is that right?

Mr. PAINE. That is right. Of course, Ruth went in and sounded them out rather cautiously and reported to me also his facial expressions and what-not when she was suggesting this, and he seemed to be glad of that rather than worried.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after Marina came and lived at your house, Oswald was there during parts of the months October and November. Did you change your opinion in this respect or was it reinforced, on the basis of his activities and your observation of him during that period?

Mr. PAINE. It was reinforced.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not think him to be a violent person or one who would be likely to commit an act such as assassinating the President?

Mr. PAINE. I didn't--I saw he was a bitter person, he was bitter and quite a lot of very negative views of people in the world around him, very little charity in his view toward anybody, but I thought he was harmless.

Representative FORD. Was this a different reaction from the one you had had at your first meeting or your first acquaintance?

Mr. PAINE. When we first became acquainted I was somewhat shocked, especially that he would speak so harshly to his wife in front of a complete stranger, and it was at that point, or at that time, that I was persuaded I would like to free Marina from her bondage and servitude to this man. He seemed to me he was keeping her, not helping her to learn the language, keeping her vassal to him, and this offended me, so at that point I became interested in helping her escape from him. Of course, I was not going to try to force that. I didn't want to be separating a family that could get along.

Mr. LIEBELER. This bitterness that you detected following his return from Mexico, was that a new reaction?

Mr. PAINE. No. That bitterness had existed all along. He also had been disagreeable to his wife, cruel to her.

Mr. LIEBELER. I see.

Mr. PAINE. Not allowing her any personality, a mind of her own, and making sharp jibes at her.

Mr. DULLES. And that continued awhile?

Mr. PAINE. That only existed that first night in March or April.

Mr. DULLES. It did not continue when Marina was at your house in Irving?

Mr. PAINE. When Marina came to our house she gained in health and weight. She started to look better and it looked to me as if the strain was off the family relationship. They were not quarreling. They billed and cooed. She sat on his lap and he said sweet nothings in her ear.

Mr. DULLES. Did you get any information from any source with regard to the situation while they were living in New Orleans that she wanted to get away from him?

Mr. PAINE. Oh, yes; well, Ruth had told me when she came back from delivering Marina to New Orleans, she had gone down there expecting to spend a week, seeing New Orleans, and it was a pretty long trip, and found the household, she reported to me, so uncomfortable living there. They were fighting, I mean, so difficult. She wanted to leave right away, and she left in a few days, left a lot sooner than she had expected to leave.

Mr. DULLES. Then your wife took her back, as you recall?

Mr. PAINE. Then, my wife came home, and then she went back to Naushon, Mass., for a couple of months in the summer, and on her way back to Texas stopped in New Orleans, found him out of work, and invited Marina to come back with her right then.

Mr. DULLES. What did she learn at that time about Oswald? What did she learn about Lee Oswald's treatment of Marina, anything new or different at the time she stopped by New Orleans, and then went back?

Mr. PAINE. She, perhaps, saw he loved her because she said that the parting, he genuinely seemed so happy to have Ruth take her back. In other words, he seemed to be exhibiting some concern for Marina, who was with child, and the child would be adequately taken care of, and sorry--it was a cheerful parting or something. She saw human qualities in him at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say after Marina returned to your home in Irving, and after Oswald came back to Dallas that their relationship improved even more, and Oswald seemed to be under less strain than he had been prior to that time; is that correct?

Mr. PAINE. Well, I don't--I only know two times, at the time in April when they came to dinner with us, and he was rough, crude, uncivil to her, and Ruth's report of how they were while she was trying to live in this house in New Orleans, when she just moved in.

She also reported to me, and she will tell you this though that apparently Lee had wanted to make her happy in this house, had liked the house, said it was in the old famous quarter of New Orleans, and Ruth could see that Marina was unhappy. She thought it was uncomfortable in this darkness, and Ruth thought it was a tragedy. Both points of view were valid depending on which way you looked at it, so she saw that Lee apparently had wanted to make her happy, wanted her to like the house when she arrived in New Orleans, and had called her out there. She had also been eager to go out.

Apparently Ruth reported to me when he called from New Orleans, saying he had a job and "come live with me, come back with me," Marina had been very happy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you specifically consider the question before you let Marina move into your home as to whether Oswald was a violent person?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, specifically. I talked it over with Frank. Frank raised the question also. So I talked it over with Ruth several times, and Frank brought up the question, and I thought of it myself.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you concluded on the basis of these discussions and your knowledge of Oswald, your collective knowledge of Oswald, at that time that he was not a violent person; is that correct?

Mr. PAINE. That he wasn't going to stab Ruth or Marina.

Mr. LIEBELER. That he wasn't going to exhibit any violence to any of you people?

Mr. PAINE. That is right. He wouldn't be a danger to Ruth. That was partly based, first, on the fact that we were not--we were careful to avoid putting him in a position that he felt offended.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't consider at the time that you were considering Oswald's possible violence toward you and your group whether he might exhibit violence to some other person?

Mr. PAINE. That is correct; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You formed no judgment about that one way or the other?

Mr. PAINE. That is correct. We assumed or felt that--if we handled him with a gentle or considerate manner that he wouldn't be a danger to us.

Mr. DULLES. In the light of subsequent information and developments, and the information which is publicly available, have you reached any other conclusions as to or any conclusions as to whether or not Lee Oswald was the assassin of the President?

Mr. PAINE. When the police first asked me did I think he had done it, my dubiousness in my mind arose from not seeing how this could fit, how this could help his cause, and I didn't think he was irrational. It did not seem to me that he could shoot a man as he would shoot a tin can. Difficulty of a person shooting another person was not the reason for my doubting, and the circumstantial evidence seemed quite powerful to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Seemed quite powerful?

Mr. PAINE. Yes. But then I realized with subsequent people calling from all over the country, somebody had said it is only a single-shot rifle, and I recognize one little fact like that could alter my thinking entirely. Somebody else said there was a shot through the windshield of the car. We went down to the place and looked around, and he thought that--he had a theory that the man had been shot from a manhole in the street, so I recognized that my views could change with evidence.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have a view on Oswald's guilt at this time?

Mr. PAINE. Most of these other things have proved to be false. It seems to be a clip-fed rifle. The man who thought it was shot from the place, I went down and saw the diagram drawn by Life seemed to be quite accurate so far as I could reconstruct the thing, and there was confusion about the number of bullets. I never did discover--it didn't quite make sense, but for the most part, I accept it, the common view that he did it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you on the morning of November 22, 1963?

Mr. PAINE. I was having, at the time of the assassination I was at work, of course, but at the time of the assassination I was in the cafeteria associated with the bowling alley having lunch.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was with you?

Mr. PAINE. A student, a co-op student called Dave Noel happened to be with me. We happened to be talking about the character of assassins at that lunchtime, of all things.

Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time you heard of the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. That is right. When we first sat down at the meal we were discussing it, beside the point, except unless you believe in extrasensory perception, but we happened to just--we didn't have enough historical knowledge to explore it, but I just raised the question and tried to pursue it, and then dropped it, and then a waitress came and said the President had been shot, and I thought she was cracking a nasty joke, and went over to a cluster of people listening around a transistor set, and heard there was some commotion of this sort from the tone of the voice of the transistor set, and we went back to the lab where there is a good radio, and followed the news from there.

When it was mentioned, the Texas School Book Depository Building was mentioned, then I told Frank Krystinik that that was where Lee Oswald worked, and then in a few minutes he came back and said, he asked me, didn't I think I had better call the FBI and tell them.

So over a period of about 20 minutes, I trying to carry on work in a foolish way, or talking or discussing other things or something, we were discussing this problem, and I thought, I said to myself, or said to him, that the FBI already knew he worked there. Everybody would know he was a black sheep, and I didn't want to--a friend or one of the few friends in position of friendship to him, I didn't want to--join the mob barking at his heels or join in his harassment, so I declined. I didn't tell Frank that he couldn't call the FBI, but I said I wasn't going to do it, so I didn't.

I called Ruth immediately after getting back just to see that she would turn on the radio and be clued in with the news, but this was before the Texas School Book Depository Building was mentioned, to my knowledge, and she was already watching the news. So we communicated nothing at that time.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether your luncheon companion did or did not telephone the FBI?

Mr. PAINE. This is not the luncheon companion. This is Dave Noel. Frank Krystinik brings his lunch, and he eats his lunch at the lab.

Mr. DULLES. At the lab?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Paine, would you give us the nature of the conversation you were having concerning assassination prior to the assassination. First let me ask you was anybody else present beside you and your companion at the time of the conversation?

Mr. PAINE. No, just he and I.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the general essence of the conversation as best you can recall.

Mr. PAINE. There had been talk, of course, people, I don't get a newspaper, but I do listen to the radio. I know what my news source is, it is mostly magazines. So there was some anxiety about the President coming to Dallas-Fort Worth, and it appeared that this thought was in the minds of several others, I was not singular in this way. It had been expected, of course, that trouble would come from the right-wing, and I was wondering whether there was any danger, I suppose, that is somebody who could be drummed up by local feeling. The number of anti-Kennedy jokes cracked was quite large in Texas, and so I was wondering, you know, what kind of a person would kill a President, and I don't think Dave Noel knew anything about it, so it was just musing or conjecturing on my part. I certainly didn't think of Lee Oswald. I didn't expect it from that cause, from that end of the spectrum.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first think of Lee Oswald in connection with the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. As soon as I heard the Texas School Book Depository Building mentioned. Now, I did not know that--it never occurred to me, I didn't realize, there was a building there on his route. I had seen this warehouse building from the expressway, you can see the name written in large letters, but that is the way from any main thoroughfare. So I had supposed, I never put--except when it was mentioned that that was the building he shot from or was the building that the shot was fired from, then I realized I did know where he worked.

Mr. DULLES. You had not been at Irving that previous night?

Mr. PAINE. No, I had not.

Mr. LIEBELER. You knew Oswald worked at the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. As soon as you heard that that building was involved in the assassination, you thought of Oswald, did you not?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you think?

Mr. PAINE. Wondering whether Oswald would do it. And the argument against it, the only argument against it, was just I didn't think he was irrational, or it seemed to me to be irrational.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you asked yourself the question of whether or not Oswald would do it solely on the basis of your knowledge that he worked in that building, is that correct?

Mr. PAINE. Yes. Well, I didn't realize he worked in that building, but then I realized I didn't know--I knew he worked at that organization. I didn't realize there was a building on Elm Street there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to your wife after you heard that the Texas School Book Depository Building was involved in the shooting, and before you subsequently heard that Oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. I don't believe so. I think I called her only once to see that she was listening to the news, and then I assumed she would know all that I knew, and as soon as she heard that I supposed she would be wondering the same thing. It wasn't many minutes later though, it seemed to me, that the name Lee Oswald was mentioned--in the theater. The newsmen didn't connect it up at all, but that is all I needed to send me home.

Mr. LIEBELER. So then you left for your home in Irving?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You left for home before there had been any public connection made between Oswald and the assassination, is that correct?

Mr. PAINE. Well, of course, the police were reporting they had suspects here and suspects there, were chasing suspects over here, and here was a man who had shot Officer Tippit. They didn't even mention him as a suspect, but there was another murder coincident in time.

Mr. LIEBELER. So the news broadcast connected Oswald with Officer Tippit?

Mr. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you then consider again whether or not Oswald had been involved in the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. Well, that was too much to have his name mentioned away from his place of work as having killed somebody; the stew was too thick to stay at work, and I was shaken too much, anyway.

Mr. LIEBELER. So your testimony is that you first thought of Oswald after you heard of the Texas School Book Depository Building being involved in the assassination, but you concluded at that time that Oswald was probably not involved in the assassination; is that correct?

Mr. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any other reason other than the fact Oswald was at that building that made you think of him when you heard that building mentioned in connection with the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. Well, yes; Oswald, of course, stands--he is a black sheep in society; I mean he is, if you were to pick out the singular person among the employees there, he is the one, or he is probably the one. I don't happen to know the people who worked there. I gather from him there were about 30 people working there in a fairly large building.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was your state of mind when you heard that the Texas School Book Depository Building was involved in the shooting, did you deeply suspect Oswald had been involved, or was it just a passing thought? Tell us some more about that if you can, recreate your state of mind.

Mr. PAINE. I think I was nervous. I know I was trying to assemble a vibration meter and could not put in the screws or I kept making mistakes. I was preoccupied. Of course, the darn fools, we should have all stopped to mourn the President, but it is kind of a habit, I wasn't accustomed, habit drove us on, very unhappy or unresolved emotional time. I thought, firstly, Frank was quite insistent, he didn't just ask me once, but several times, whether I didn't think I should call the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he thought you should call the FBI?

Mr. PAINE. Well, he would have, but he is of that nature. At one time he had seen someone taking pictures of Hensley Field, which has signs on the outside "No Photographs Allowed," and I said I believe more in freedom. It seems to me if the field doesn't want the pictures taken, they had better put up a big fence. But he had gone ahead and called up the base commander, and the base commander knew the man. That was his normal mode of behavior, whereas my normal defense is of the individual, and I didn't think--I would not like to, if Lee is falsely accused, I wouldn't want to be jumping on him with the mob. If he is properly, if he is guilty, he will be found. They know he works there, he is connected to us. I couldn't contribute to his capture, so that my withholding information wouldn't harm the search for the right man, and having jumped on him unfairly I might be ashamed of that later on. So that was my feeling in regard to whether I should call the FBI. I think I just kind of felt cold sweats or something like that in regard to the question could he have done that thing. I don't think I went much beyond that, could he, could he.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Krystinik indicate to you any reason for his desire to call the FBI? Did he suspect Oswald had done this on the basis of his knowledge of Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. It seemed to me very reasonable that he should think so. Of course, I don't think the others were so sharply aware, the others in the lab were so sharply aware that we were wrestling with this problem.

The CHAIRMAN. He didn't say anything to you, he didn't tell you any other reason?

Mr. PAINE. No, he didn't; but his reaction seemed perfectly reasonable to me.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. PAINE. I felt the same one--if you were to pick out somebody in that building, it was a rather singular coincidence we knew this man who was so negative to our society and not an ingratiating person, not a person with compassion or something.

Mr. LIEBELER. What time did you arrive at your home in Irving?

Mr. PAINE. I would guess about 3 or 3:30, somewhere in that neighborhood.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there when you arrived?

Mr. PAINE. The police, the Dallas police mostly were there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife was there?

Mr. PAINE. My wife and Marina.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you said when you arrived?

Mr. PAINE. I don't know. No, I don't remember what I said.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say in words or substance, "I came right home as soon as I heard the shots were fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building?"

Mr. PAINE. No, I came right home as soon as I heard Lee Oswald mentioned. I did not come home.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember saying that you came right home as soon as you heard that Oswald was involved?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think I said something like that. Ruth asked me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you mentioned before that after you arrived home you went into the garage when the police officers went into your garage. Was there any indication to you at that time that the garage had been previously searched by the police or anyone else?

Mr. PAINE. This I don't remember very well. But, as I remember, this was not the first time we had gone in there. I think, perhaps, they went into--I don't remember, but I don't think it was the first time they had gone in.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said when you did go into the garage, however, the blanket was there in the garage?

Mr. PAINE. I think it was. It was still there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us, to the best of your recollection, what was said in respect of the blanket and search of the garage, as you say. Before you answer that question, let me ask you, did your wife go with you into the garage with the police officers?

Mr. PAINE. I think they were further in in the garage. I think I stayed--the band saw is fairly close to--there is an overhead door to the garage, and close to the under edge of that when it is pulled up. In other words, it is fairly close to the outside in the garage, and I think I stayed somewhat near the door entering the garage, which is the inside end of the garage.

Mr. LIEBELER. And your wife was with the police officers further in?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think she was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Marina Oswald there?

Mr. PAINE. Failure of recollection, I would say, yes. But it is a very fuzzy recollection.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us where the blanket was found?

Mr. PAINE. It doesn't really make sense as to why they would still leave the blanket there, and these things would have been discussed at that time, but I kind of remember a kind of silhouette situation, a police officer either lifted up or kicked this blanket, which was in exactly the same location that the rifle, the package had been, underneath the saw and somewhat in the sawdust. And I think he put it back there. He may have asked me at that time, "Did you know what was in this?"

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that?

Mr. PAINE. And that is why I think they asked me, it may have been as early as that, whether it was a rifle, "Do you think it could have been a rifle?" I don't remember how it was posed, but I probably answered when it was suggested, it was a rifle, and there they suggested it was a rifle, because they had already learned from Marina that he had had a rifle, and it had been, perhaps, had learned it had been in that blanket.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know they had previously asked Marina about that?

Mr. PAINE. No; but I think--I'm just telling you my impressions here, very fuzzy impressions.

Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.

Mr. PAINE. My impression was that they asked me if I knew what was in this blanket, or he asked me, and then he asked me if it could be a rifle, and I probably responded, yes. It didn't take long once the rifle was suggested as the object to fit this puzzle together, this puzzle of the pieces that I had been trying to assemble in the package.

Mr. LIEBELER. What else happened?

Mr. PAINE. We went out of the garage, I don't think he took the blanket then even.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is the Dallas police officer?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, plainclothesman, wearing black hats; one of them had one of those Texas hats. He collected all the useless stuff in our house, he went around and collected all the files of Ruth, and a drawer of cameras, mostly belonging to me. I tried to tell him one of the files contained our music or something like that, and the more I suggested it, that he not bother taking those, the more insistent he was in taking those objects.

So with the various boxes and piles of stuff, mostly of our stuff, we got in the car and went off, and he was quite irked that we had wasted quite enough time around there, he said, and Ruth was irked, and everybody was irked by it. He wouldn't let us be helpful, and thought we were--he became angry when we tried to be helpful or something that we would suggest that he should do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you how they happened to come to your house?

Mr. PAINE. No. I don't remember. I think I may have asked it, "You found us pretty quickly," or somebody said this, but I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other conversations about this blanket?

Mr. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did anyone notice any scraps of paper or tape similar to the ones of which these sacks were constructed that we previously identified, particularly Commission 142?

Mr. PAINE. Not that I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything else that happened during this period prior to the time the police left that you think would be significant or that we ought to know about?

Mr. PAINE. No; very little happened. We just bundled up and went. Marina was--whimpered a little bit, but mostly it was dry.

Mr. LIEBELER. You went with the police?

Mr. PAINE. We went with the police in several cars and didn't come back until quite a lot later that night, didn't go into the garage again; didn't want the Life reporters to take photographs, so I don't think they went in the garage to take photographs. Several--their possessions were searched by various waves of succeeding policemen, Dallas, and Irving and FBI, and what not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, there has been a report that on November 23, 1963, there was a telephone call between a man and a woman, between the numbers of your residence and the number of your office, in which the man was reported to have said in words or substance, "We both know who is responsible for the assassination." Have you been asked about this before?

Mr. PAINE. I had heard that--I didn't know it was associated with our numbers. I had heard a report that some telephone operator had listened in on a conversation somewhere, I don't know where it was. I thought it was some other part of the country.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to your wife on the telephone at any time during Saturday, November 23, on the telephone?

Mr. PAINE. I was in the police station again, and I think I called her from there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make any remark to the effect that you knew who was responsible?

Mr. PAINE. And I don't know who the assassin is or was; no, so I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are positive in your recollection that you made no such remark?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us your impression and your opinion of the relationship that had developed between Marina Oswald and your wife during the period that they knew each other up to the time of the assassination and subsequent to the assassination when, as we discussed briefly yesterday, there came to be a cooling off between them or a disenchantment.

Mr. PAINE. Ruth was mostly learning the language, so she was limited in her vocabulary and couldn't talk about--she explained to me she couldn't talk about--political or economic subjects. It was a topic on which her vocabulary didn't serve her, but it did appear she had spoken of quite a number of things. Marina had told her about movies she had seen in the Soviet Union, but I thought that the knowledge, Ruth's knowledge, I suppose Ruth's knowledge of Marina was fairly shallow. And Marina was quite reserved. Now, it may have been more so when I was in the house that she was not as much at ease as she was, perhaps, with Ruth herself.

Of course, Marina was in a position where she always had to be polite. Ruth is easy to get along with, however, so I didn't expect Marina to have difficulty. But I didn't think Ruth and Marina were bosom friends or buddies, but neither, of course, I didn't mean to suggest the opposite.

Ruth was enjoying Marina's company and I was glad to have Marina staying with Ruth. It actually reduced the cost. Ruth saved money. The bills were less while Marina was there, and Ruth, in general, was happier.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn----

Mr. PAINE. I didn't think Ruth knew Marina very well, but I don't know how well she knew her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn subsequently or are you aware that subsequent to the assassination there has been a disenchantment or some strain between Marina and Ruth?

Mr. PAINE. Several things happened. Ruth was put out when she learned Marina knew afterward that Oswald had taken a shot at Walker, if that were true. She thought that was quite morally remiss on Marina's part, and so we talked about that thing.

Mr. DULLES. When did she learn that?

Mr. PAINE. This was in the newspaper report.

Mr. DULLES. She only learned it through the newspaper?

Mr. PAINE. That is correct. So we discussed the mitigating circumstances of Marina not knowing the language and not knowing who she could go to if she wanted to stay in this country and, perhaps--we believe there were extenuating circumstances which would, perhaps, excuse Marina. Ruth was troubled about that, and so she wrote a series of quite a number of letters, each one referring to previous letters, trying to discover whether they were being withheld, thinking Marina was a responsible person or normally civil person, she would normally respond to or at least acknowledge receipt of them.

So Ruth didn't know whether she was receiving them or not, and had another--some encounters with Martin and Thorne which didn't put her at ease. She still didn't know whether Marina was receiving them. She saw only some of the checks had been signed by Thorne rather than Marina. Thorne had said that Marina didn't say he had power of attorney, and Marina was trying to do everything that she could which, at least, she could sign her checks, checks or gifts.

So there were these indications. Ruth was very much in the dark, not knowing why she had received no communication from Marina, and having conflicting reports from Martin. Martin said she had a phone right beside her if she wanted to call.

Mr. DULLES. How did she receive these checks?

Mr. PAINE. I guess Ruth--some of the checks came to Ruth as gifts to her, and Ruth would write her own check so she got her own stub back.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Mr. PAINE. Therefore, Ruth had this question of whether she had offended Marina or whether Marina had done something that offended Ruth or whether Marina didn't like Ruth and had never let on. This would be a great blow to her ego. It had Ruth in great periods of depression and anxiety.

Mr. DULLES. Did either you or your wife, to your knowledge, know Robert Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. We only met him for the first time on the night of the assassination. We both liked him at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Paine, is there any other subject that we haven't covered in the testimony that you think the Commission ought to know about in connection with this assassination?

Mr. PAINE. I don't believe there is anything else that I know.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any questions, Mr. Dulles?

Mr. DULLES. The only question I have in mind is as to what took place as far as Mr. Paine is concerned on the night of the assassination. Were you in the police station?

Mr. PAINE. We went down to the police and stayed there until about 8 or 9 o'clock. Then Marguerite came home with us and spent the night.

Mr. DULLES. You didn't see Lee Harvey at that time, did you?

Mr. PAINE. They asked me and I declined to see him at that time. I changed my mind. When they immediately asked me, I declined. I did not know what he would ask me, so I did not see him.

Mr. DULLES. You did not see him?

Mr. PAINE. No.

Mr. DULLES. Did your wife see him?

Mr. PAINE. I think no one saw him. Marina went in the next morning hoping to see him.

Mr. DULLES. There were no conversations that took place that evening that are pertinent to our investigation so far as you know?

Mr. PAINE. Quite soon I called the ACLU. There were reports, yes, I think at that time, that Friday night, Marguerite was saying he wasn't receiving counsel, and so I called the ACLU to see if there was anybody there checking to see if this was true, and apparently a delegation, this was Saturday morning, and apparently a delegation had been sent.

Mr. DULLES. But to your knowledge neither you nor your wife had any conversations with Marina or Robert that would throw any light on this apparent coolness?

Mr. PAINE. Ruth apparently saw Marina this last weekend. We have some indications that people had gone between, chiefly Levine.

Mr. DULLES. You think money considerations had anything to do with this?

Mr. PAINE. I think quite a lot--it will be borne out, between Ruth and Marina subsequently, I think they will find the difficulties. I think Thorne----

Mr. DULLES. What I have in mind is as to whether some of these other people thought that you and Ruth might intervene in as business manager or something of that kind between them, and the monetary considerations that were coming in to Marina.

Mr. PAINE. We didn't know why. We have the feeling that Thorne was advising her not to speak to Ruth. Ruth is not interested in the money, but is interested in protecting her from the wolves, and so she thought, we both thought, there were some false stories being told to Marina in regard to Ruth.

Mr. DULLES. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Paine.

Mr. PAINE. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We will examine Mrs. Paine this afternoon at 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 1:05 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE

The President's Commission reconvened at 2:20 p.m.

Mr. McCLOY. Before I ask you to be sworn, Mrs. Paine. I will give you a little general indication of what our testimony is apt to cover.

We have heard that you and your husband made the acquaintance of the Oswalds somewhere during 1963, and that Mrs. Marina Oswald lived in your home from late September 1963, I believe, to the time of the assassination.

Since we are inquiring under our mandate into the background and the possible motives of the assassination by Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin, we will question you regarding your association with Mr. Oswald and try to glean from you any other facts that may bear upon the assassination or its motivation.

I believe you have been furnished with a copy of the executive order under which we are operating as well as the Congressional resolution?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Now if you will please stand, I will swear you.

Mrs. PAINE. I would like to affirm.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you solemnly affirm that the evidence you will give in this investigation will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.

Mr. McCLOY. Will you state your full name for the record and your address?

Mrs. PAINE. I am Ruth Hyde Paine. I live at 2515 West Fifth Street, in Irving, Tex.

Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Jenner is going to conduct the examination.

Mr. JENNER. Your maiden name?

Mrs. PAINE. Is Hyde.

Mr. JENNER. Ruth Avery Hyde.

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. You are wife of Michael Ralph Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you were born September 3, 1932?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You are almost 34 years old.

Mrs. PAINE. Almost 32. I will be 32 in September.

Mr. JENNER. Pretty bad arithmetic. Just a little bit of your background, Mrs. Paine, very little. Your mother and father are living?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And your mother is an Unitarian Minister ordained in the Unitarian Church at the moment?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she is.

Mr. JENNER. And received her degree in theology last summer I believe, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. No, she has completed her work for a Bachelor of Divinity Degree from Oberlin College and she will receive it in the spring. They don't give them in mid-year. She completed just the first of February.

Mr. JENNER. You yourself are a college graduate?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Antioch College?

Mrs. PAINE. Yellow Springs.

Mr. JENNER. Yellow Springs, Ohio?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. You have a brother and sister.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And your mother, your father, yourself, your brother, and your sister are your entire family.

Mrs. PAINE. My immediate family.

Mr. JENNER. Your brother is a graduate of Antioch also, he and your sister. Are they older than you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, they are.

Mr. JENNER. Which is the elder of the two?

Mrs. PAINE. My brother is the oldest.

Mr. JENNER. And your brother is a professional man, is he?

Mrs. PAINE. He is a doctor, general practitioner.

Mr. JENNER. A general physician, and he practices in Yellow Springs, Ohio?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us where Yellow Springs is?

Mrs. PAINE. It is about 60 miles south and west from Columbus, Ohio, the capital, which is more or less in the middle of the State, and just a little bit east of Dayton.

Mr. JENNER. Is your brother married.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, he is.

Mr. JENNER. Does he have a family?

Mrs. PAINE. He has four children.

Mr. JENNER. And is your sister married?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she is.

Mr. JENNER. Does she have a family?

Mrs. PAINE. She has four children.

Mr. JENNER. And each of your brothers and your sister, it is their first marriage?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Now you were married to Mr. Paine December 28, 1957, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. JENNER. And you were married where, in Philadelphia?

Mrs. PAINE. It was suburban Philadelphia. Friends meeting in Media, Pa.

Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us what the Friends meeting is which you have mentioned?

Mrs. PAINE. I am a member of the Society of Friends often known as Quakers.

Mr. JENNER. You are a Quaker?

Mrs. PAINE. I am.

Mr. JENNER. When did you embrace that faith?

Mrs. PAINE. I joined in early 1951, I believe.

Mr. JENNER. Has any other member of your family embraced the Quaker faith?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; my brother is also a Quaker.

Mr. JENNER. When did he embrace that faith.

Mrs. PAINE. Similar in time, a year or two one way or the other. I don't recall exactly.

Mr. JENNER. I am afraid I might have been inattentive. When did you say that occurred?

Mrs. PAINE. Similar in time. I don't remember just when exactly he joined.

Mr. JENNER. I was thinking more as to when you said you did.

Mrs. PAINE. In early '51, I think; I am quite certain it was winter of '51.

Mr. JENNER. You were then in college?

Mrs. PAINE. That was the year out. I went to Antioch one year and then I took a year out and I joined my home meeting in Columbus which I had already attended perhaps 2 years.

Mr. JENNER. And from the time you joined the Quaker church you have been a member of that church?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Or that faith?

Mrs. PAINE. Or church; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Ever since?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now you and Mr. Paine, did you take up a residence in Philadelphia as soon as you married?

Mrs. PAINE. I had been living in Philadelphia working there, and then when we married I moved to suburban Philadelphia where Michael was living, Paoli, Pa.