Chapter XXIII: Part 23

Mrs. FORD. That is right, it was the American Civil Liberties Union and I talked to my husband about that and he tried to find out; I told him to find out all he can if it had anything to do with a Communist front or something and if it was I didn't want to do anything about it, to be connected with it, and he couldn't find anything out, but at the same time I told him that I did not want to go with them but I didn't mind translating. So I did translate and they wanted to know if Marina was held incommunicado, and she answered. Mrs. Paine brought me that letter to translate from English to Russian, and the man in charge, I don't know his name, I have forgotten his name, you mentioned it yesterday, if you say it I will remember it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's come to that in a moment, let's develop the story first.

How did the question of the American Civil Liberties first come up, did Mrs. Paine bring it up?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is right, because she tried to write letters to Marina and she wouldn't answer and she thought she was held in sort of a protective custody and couldn't see anybody. That is what she felt, and she was rather imprisoned is what she thought.

Mr. LIEBELER. So Mrs. Paine came to you with a letter that was written in English, is that correct?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And she asked you to translate into Russian?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that a letter from Mrs. Paine to Marina or a letter from the Civil Liberties Union?

Mrs. FORD. No; from Civil Liberties Union.

Mr. LIEBELER. And so you translated that into Russian?

Mrs. FORD. That is right, I translated it into Russian.

Mr. LIEBELER. Up to that point was Mrs. Paine the only person who discussed that subject with you.

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any further discussions with Mrs. Paine or anybody else?

Mrs. FORD. We tried to find out about the Union and my husband called lawyers and friends of his who would know about it and called the Secret Service and FBI and nobody would tell us anything about it. They would send us somewhere else, refer it to someone else to find out, so we don't find out.

So, I just decided on my own not to go, just to translate.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well now, what is this about going with them, what did Mrs. Paine ask you?

Mrs. FORD. She thought that maybe since I knew Marina she would rather confide in me more than just anyone like reporters or someone just from the Union would go there.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you declined to go with them?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when somebody else spoke to you about this subject?

Mrs. FORD. No, not at all. Just during that time I wanted to find out if she was in prison.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina respond to the letter that you translated?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; they received an answer right the next day, and the man from Richardson, who I think is the head of that Union in Dallas, came to my house and asked me if I could translate it back into English.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that man's name?

Mrs. FORD. No; if you mention it I would know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would it refresh your recollection if I mentioned the name of Gregg Olds?

Mrs. FORD. That is right; yes, that is his name.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did Mr. Olds say to you when he came to see you?

Mrs. FORD. He just brought the letter and he was rather standing and he wasn't talking very much. He was kind of a quiet person, I think. I took the letter--he thought I could just sit there and do it real fast in front of him, but I had to take it into a room and sort of concentrate in the living room and translated and giving it to him.

He said, "Thank you," and he left.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when this was?

Mrs. FORD. No; I cannot say. Let's see. I think it was sometime before Christmas, because after that I sent her a Christmas card.

No, wait a minute, I just can't say if it was before Christmas or afterward, I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember if it was before or after Marina testified before this Commission?

Mrs. FORD. That was before the Warren Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was before the Warren Commission?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Marina again on the telephone after this first time?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I talked to her on the telephone because through my husband's brother who is a professor in one of the universities in California, he had a friend by the name of Isaac Levine who does write, who speaks Russian and writes rather--he wrote a book of on the mind of the assassin, Trotsky's story. He wanted to contact me and to find out if Marina had signed a contract on writing a book. So I told him that I would call the managers, since there was published in the newspaper at that time, and to find out if they did, and I did call. I called her lawyer and I asked if she signed for a book, and I called Levine long distance and told him she did not have a contract signed. Then he told me that he would like--he wanted to know if he could arrange to see Marina, and I told him that I would ask the manager and he told me to contact, for Levine to contact, the attorney and the manager. I saw later on they have somehow gotten together. I think he wrote to them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when Marina came to your house to visit?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she brought a letter she wanted me to translate. It was after this, after I had a contact about the writer Marina called me, this is the first time, the first time after the assassination that she called me on the telephone and we talked about that and I told her that the man had contacted me and he speaks Russian. I thought it would be a good opportunity for her to write if she wanted to since she could communicate easily with a writer that speaks Russian. I read his book that he sent me, and he makes real sense. I invited her to come out to dinner and, of course, I didn't expect that there would be a whole company with her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she come out?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; they did, they came out, the Secret Service and the manager were there and everybody so I cooked a Russian dinner.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when that was?

Mrs. FORD. It was shortly before the Commission, maybe about 2 weeks before the Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Late in January sometime?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. During that time that Marina was there did you have any discussion with her about the events of the assassination or anything relating to that?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she discuss with you her possible testimony before this Commission?

Mrs. FORD. No, not during that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina come back to your house again before she came to testify before the Commission?

Mrs. FORD. Yes, she was once more at my house. During the first time her manager brought a letter that she wanted to bring to the Governor about how she feels about Ruby's being executed. She told me she didn't want, she didn't feel, if she could help she didn't want to have the killing of a dead man on her conscience, on her mind. She wanted me to translate that letter and I did translate it.

And I left it at home and later on they came by, I told Mr. Martin that I would come by his house and bring the letter to her after I translated.

He said, "If you wanted to we can come back to your house like we did before." And they did and they picked up the letter.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any copy of that letter?

Mrs. FORD. I think maybe I have a copy of it, of my translation. But I am not positive. I know I put it in a desk.

Representative FORD. This was a letter from whom to whom?

Mrs. FORD. From Marina to, I will say they did--I think it was advised to her to write it to the Governor, to Governor Connally.

Representative FORD. To Governor Connally?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. To the present Governor of Texas, that is the Governor of Texas?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said that Marina said to you she did not want to have another death on her conscience?

Mrs. FORD. That is right. She feels like, she told me she feels strongly about it, that people shouldn't kill one another, if there is no war.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she use the words as you remember it, the words "on her conscience"?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember that word really but I just feel this was, she would feel very badly if that would happen.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she seem to feel that she had some responsibility for these things?

Mrs. FORD. What do you mean by that? I mean how, responsibility in what way?

Mr. LIEBELER. That she was in anyway a cause of any of these deaths herself?

Mrs. FORD. No; I wouldn't think she feels this way, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about the conversations at the second meeting. Were there any conversations at that time about her testimony before the Commission or about the assassination?

Mrs. FORD. I believe she mentioned she was going to Washington at that time. She knew about going, I believe Martin said that.

Mr. LIEBELER. But she didn't talk about her testimony?

Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't, not at all she didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to anybody else about her testimony before the Commission?

Mrs. FORD. I don't know, I don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Martin say anything about it?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember, I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next time that you saw Marina?

Mrs. FORD. After she came back from Washington.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she come to your house then?

Mrs. FORD. No; she did not. Her lawyer, in fact Mr. Martin, called me and told me she is staying at her brother-in-law's, and that he wanted to break the partnership with her, and he asked me if I could go with her attorney and translate for her the conditions of the break, the breaking of the contract, and I agreed to go with them.

Mr. LIEBELER. To Robert Oswald?

Mrs. FORD. To Robert Oswald's house; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time after that when Marina came to live with you in your house?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; when I came there, Marina told me she couldn't stay another day, she thought, in Robert's house. It was such a small house and small children and she just didn't like to stay in there at all, and so I told her, "Well, you could come and stay at my place if you wanted to," and she said she would love to do that.

Mr. LIEBELER. After Marina moved in with you, did you talk to her about her testimony before the Commission, that she gave before the Commission?

Mrs. FORD. No; we never talked about what she did. She told me she had it, written something. She said something maybe that someone mentioned in the Commission that that was rather good for a novel but not for the testimony.

She said, well, she had written the way she remembers her past, those are the words she made.

Mr. LIEBELER. She was referring to a statement she had written.

Mrs. FORD. She had written, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she show it to you?

Mrs. FORD. No; I have never seen it.

Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that Marina stayed with you or at any other time, did she say anything to you about this incident where Mr. Oswald was allegedly going to attack Mr. Nixon?

Mrs. FORD. No; I hadn't learned about that until later.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss it with Marina?

Mrs. FORD. Somehow she didn't feel, she didn't want to discuss it very much, she felt badly that it came out, I suppose or something. She didn't want it to.

Mr. LIEBELER. But she did talk to you about it?

Mrs. FORD. She talked to me because I had to translate it to her, the discussion with her lawyer, and he, I think, the FBI were at the lawyer's office while they went to talk to her about the subject, and I had to translate what she was telling the lawyer about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with her about this Nixon affair at a time when the FBI was not present?

Mrs. FORD. I think going home, I just maybe, I don't know what I asked her. She said the same thing actually what she said in the office, that she held him in the bathroom and I asked her how was it finished, and she said, "I talked him out of it," and he said, "If you will keep me in the bathroom, just give me something to read." She didn't talk very much about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask her how she could lock Lee in the bathroom?

Mrs. FORD. No; it never occurred to me to ask her and I did not ask her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss this question with anybody else how she could lock anybody in the bathroom?

Mrs. FORD. Not until yesterday with my husband, how she could do it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything else that Marina told you about this Nixon affair that you can remember now?

Did she tell you when it happened?

Mrs. FORD. No; she told me only that, that she said she mixed up dates. She thought it was one month and it was, supposedly happened, another month and she said that a lot of times she doesn't remember exactly the month.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you anything about the General Walker affair?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she told me something about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was that?

Mrs. FORD. She said in the first place, people are saying that maybe she knew ahead of time and she said she did not. Lee told her after it had happened, after he had shot, and he told her, "Well, I just tried to shoot Walker." She said she was rather angry and she told him if he ever does that again, she said, "Don't ever do that again," she was rather disgusted--that he shouldn't do such a thing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you about any note that he had written in connection with the attack on General Walker?

Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you whether the Walker incident occurred before or after the Nixon incident?

Mrs. FORD. I don't know. She never said it to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she discuss with you during this period that she had been living in your house any of the details of the assassination?

Mrs. FORD. I, frankly, just didn't feel like asking her questions, I really felt like I just wanted to help her, that is all. She never brought the subject up herself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say anything about what happened on Thursday night when Lee Oswald came back from Irving to Dallas?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she said that was not long ago, and she somehow found out someone, I think Robert, told her there was some evidence that someone saw a boy running across--a boy saw someone running across the yard or something, and he thought maybe there was some other man involved. And she began to say, "Well, if Lee didn't kill the President why did he come home on Thursday and why did he leave his ring at home and why was the gun taken from the garage." I mean she was putting that together, she was making me believe that Lee was doing it.

Mr. LIEBELER. She was considering at that time the possibility that Lee Oswald was not?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Guilty of this?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; Robert, I believe, was telling her that, that there was a possibility that somebody else did the crime and she was talking about that to me, and that is when she said about why would he come back on Thursday when he never did that before, and also that he would leave a ring that was to her it would mean something that he didn't want--he didn't feel like he would return or something.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with Marina her feeling as to Lee Oswald's guilt or innocence in this matter?

Mrs. FORD. Well, she feels that--no, I don't remember her discussing it. I think she asked him after she saw him after the assassination he told her no, he did not kill anybody. He told her that. But I think her own conclusion is that he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussions with her as to whether Lee Oswald was angry with President Kennedy for any reason?

Mrs. FORD. No; she told me that he actually never did say anything bad about Kennedy. He didn't like General Walker because he compared him rather with Hitler in some way. He said, he was telling her, she was asking him why would he kill a man like that, I mean that he should not kill anybody. He said, he told her, well, if somebody killed Hitler ahead of time that wouldn't have happened in Germany and he says he felt like it was his duty to get rid of men where he was a Fascist, speaking about General Walker.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina say anything about Lee's attitude toward Governor Connally?

Mrs. FORD. No; she never discussed that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Marina about Marina's feelings toward Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. FORD. Lately, I have been talking to her about that, and Mrs. Paine, I know, tried to contact her and asked Marina why she did not want to write to her, because I know that she had written to her often. Somehow she doesn't like Mrs. Paine and then she said she feels that Martin told her that Mrs. Paine was making money on her articles about Marina, and she don't like that.

I got, even lately, Mrs. Paine called me up, and I believe it was only a pretense because she knew that I had a contact with Marina and she wanted to see Marina. She came to my house and told me she wanted for me to read in Russian very slowly that she could follow me for her students. She is teaching Russian to some students in private school and that she could record it and then listen to it, and she said she would pay me for the services, and at the time, the same time.

So, I had Marina that evening, I know she would want to see her, so I invited Marina to my house and at the time Mrs. Paine was coming.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told her Mrs. Paine was coming?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I told her Mrs. Paine was coming and she only said she didn't want Mrs. Paine for her to know the telephone number or the house she lives in. She said she would come in all the time and she didn't exactly like her. She didn't want to see her at her house, not now anyway, she said.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina and Mrs. Paine meet this evening at your house?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; they did, they talked.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did they say to each other?

Mrs. FORD. Well, frankly, I got an idea that Mrs. Paine came there to convince Marina to write a book with Mr. Levine who is rather persistent about it at the moment. He wants to start writing a book before Marina finishes with her lawyer and attorney--and her manager. She knows and she is advised by her attorney now not to do it before it is finished, and I think Mrs. Paine tried to talk her into it.

Mr. LIEBELER. They didn't discuss anything about the assassination or Mrs. Oswald's testimony before the Commission?

Mrs. FORD. No; I did not hear it.

Mr. LIEBELER. So far as you heard.

Did Marina ever tell you anything about the trip to Mexico that Lee Oswald took?

Mrs. FORD. Well, let's see. I think she was saying something about it that she did not mention to the FBI but she mentioned it to the Commission. She did say that. And that the FBI wanted to talk with her, that was the reason they wanted to come back again and talk with her. They came to my house quite often during the time she stayed at my house and talked with her, and she said that was the subject, and they asked her why she did not say it to start with, and she said well, she had begun to get tired of the FBI and she didn't like to talk with them.

Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI had been interviewing her while she stayed at your place?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been present at any of those interviews?

Mrs. FORD. No; unless they needed--no; I was not present.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were present at an FBI interview at Mr. McKenzie's office at one time?

Mrs. FORD. At Mr. McKenzie's office, that is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there a translator present when the FBI interviewed Marina?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; there is at the moment.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know his name?

Mrs. FORD. Mr. Gopadze.

Mr. LIEBELER. Has Marina discussed with you the questions that the FBI has been asking her?

Mrs. FORD. No; except this particular Mexican trip.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you anything about the details of that trip?

Mrs. FORD. On that trip--she did not go into details of the trip; but certain things about--she asked Lee to bring her a bracelet and he didn't, things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say anything about a desire that Lee Oswald had to go to Cuba?

Mrs. FORD. Well, this is something that she talked about but I don't remember how--she said he wanted to actually go to Cuba. He wanted to get a visa to go to Russia but he would go to Russia by the way of Cuba, and she thought that he would stay in Cuba and not go to Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you what she was supposed to do when Oswald was in Cuba.

Mrs. FORD. Frankly, I don't know. I know that subject was discussed one time but I either had to go diaper the baby or something. I just cannot say--I know she tried to talk on this subject to Mr. Levine once and she explained it. It was a rather complicated sort of a thing and I cannot explain it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she express any fears that Oswald was going to leave her and go to Cuba and abandon her.

Mrs. FORD. There was a possibility--something she would stay here or something, and for a while, and we were asking her well, how did she intend to live while he was gone, and she thought, well, she said, well, Lee said, "You have a lot of Russian friends and they will help you," while he is not here, that was the conversation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever speak of any plans that Oswald had to hijack an airplane and go to Cuba?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she said something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did she say?

Mrs. FORD. Well, that was again, I believe she was discussing with Mr. Levine at the time about this Cuba and this airplane. It is again complicated, I don't think I can say it to make sense, somehow that he had to go, had to have enough gasoline or something to go there, not to make a stop anywhere. I could not say it to make any sense. I know she was talking about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Robert Oswald about the assassination?

Mrs. FORD. No; we we never discussed it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Robert Oswald never expressed to you any thoughts that he had on Lee Oswald's guilt or innocence?

Mrs. FORD. I understand he didn't like the cover of Life magazine and I was rather surprised because it was in my mind like it seems there is no question. Nobody knows very sure but I feel like it was Lee that did it. And he was rather angry about the statement there that it was a gun with which the President was killed, and he was rather angry about that cover, and that is why I thought that maybe he didn't believe that Lee killed him.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is the only discussion you had with Robert Oswald?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is the only one, that is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to Marina about any rifle practice that Lee Oswald may have engaged in?

Mrs. FORD. I didn't discuss it with him but she said that she didn't think that he went to a rifle practice. She told me that about a lot of things that people would say that it was not true, she thought that she didn't think it was true about Lee being at practice.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Grand Prairie you are referring to?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Grand Prairie?

Mrs. FORD. That is right. She didn't think he was doing that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say anything about him practicing with the rifle any place else?

Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she mention that he had practiced with the rifle at Love Field?

Mrs. FORD. She didn't say anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever say anything to you that indicated she wanted to go back to Russia?

You said before that she told Lee Oswald that if he wanted to go back to Russia he could go but she wasn't going to go.

But did she ever indicate to you at any time she wanted to go back to Russia?

Mrs. FORD. She did not. Again the first call after the assassination she asked me, she said, "You know I have a visa, a pending visa, to go to Russia and if they will send it to me, I may have to go." I sort of answered her, I am pretty sure they wouldn't send her a visa now so she doesn't have to worry about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yesterday afternoon we discussed some of these things, did we not?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned the fact that Marina Oswald had told you that at one time she was thinking about committing suicide?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she mentioned that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about that.

Mrs. FORD. She said she didn't want to have it published anywhere, she is rather ashamed of it. But there was a time after all the--I think it was before she went to New Orleans and before she lived at Paine's house, that there was a time that she didn't have any friends, all the Russian friends left her, I believe De Mohrenschildts were gone during that time, and that Lee was treating her rather badly at the time and she just felt like she had no way out.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you anything other than that? Did she tell you she actually tried to commit suicide or was it something she was thinking of?

Mrs. FORD. She didn't tell me the particulars but somehow Lee found out what was on her mind because he had beaten her again and told her only crazy people would consider doing a thing like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. She said Lee had found out she had thought of committing suicide?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever tell you how he found out?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she indicate to you in any way that she had ever tried to do this?

Mrs. FORD. Well, she didn't tell me the particulars of it, I didn't want to, I mean I just didn't, ask her for all the details about it. But she was saying she was thinking about doing it at a certain time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I don't want to press you too hard about it but there is quite a difference between thinking about doing it and actually doing it.

The CHAIRMAN. She didn't hear it, she didn't hear it, did she?

Mr. LIEBELER. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, that is enough.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you write to Marina at any time after the assassination?

Mrs. FORD. Did I write to her?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. FORD. I sent her a Christmas card; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Any other letters?

Mrs. FORD. No; no letters.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you been interviewed by the FBI, do you remember?

Mrs. FORD. FBI maybe twice. The first time, soon after the assassination; the same day that Lee Oswald was shot.

Actually we heard by radio, friends of ours had called us, anyone who knew Lee Oswald was supposed to come out and say it and call the FBI or the police. So we called the FBI and we said we did know and we came to the office ourselves and to talk about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been interviewed by the Secret Service?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. In our conversation yesterday we discussed your testimony and reviewed these matters. Is there anything you can remember that we discussed at that time that we have not talked about here now?

Mrs. FORD. I don't remember. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any other information that you have that you think the Commission would like to know about that we don't have relating to the assassination?

Mrs. FORD. I don't think there is anything of importance that you don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any papers relating to these matters other than I think you mentioned a copy of the letter that you translated for the American Civil Liberties Union, other than that paper, do you have any papers that might relate to these questions I asked you?

Mrs. FORD. No; I might have a copy of the letter that Marina was writing for----

Mr. LIEBELER. To Governor Connally?

Mrs. FORD. To Governor Connally, and it is just rather a translation in my own handwriting.

Mr. LIEBELER. On this point about the rifle practice, did Marina tell you simply that he did not practice at the range at Grand Prairie or he did not practice at any place with the rifle?

Mrs. FORD. I think she was talking about the particular range.

Mr. LIEBELER. Particularly Grand Prairie?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And she didn't say anything about any other practice?

Mrs. FORD. She was telling me that people were--supposedly saw him in San Antonio and she knew for sure he wasn't there, and then she was saying they saw him at Grand Prairie practicing and she thought that he wasn't there, and then again in Ruby's place and she knew sure that Lee would never go to a place like that, things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, do you have some questions for Mrs. Ford?

Representative FORD. Mr. Chief Justice, I have one or two.

The CHAIRMAN. Proceed, please.

Representative FORD. Did Marina Oswald ever tell you about her schooling in Russia?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did. I think that would be a junior college here. She would finish 7 or 8 years, I don't know exactly, and then I think it is 4 years in a junior college which would make her in my opinion an assistant pharmacist.

Representative FORD. In other words, she went to the regular----

Mrs. FORD. School, yes.

Representative FORD. Primary school?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Representative FORD. Following that she went on to a secondary school.

Mrs. FORD. You don't have to finish primary school. Russian High School is 10 years, and if you want to specialize in some sort of assistant or technical work you would finish 7 or 8 years and then you would go 4 years after that, it is a finishing technical school, whether you would call it, where you would actually finish high school and at the same time you acquire some sort of a profession or technician, assistant to engineer or in this case assistant to a pharmacist.

Representative FORD. But those were the only schools that she has ever indicated to you that she attended?

Mrs. FORD. I think so, that is right.

Representative FORD. Did she ever indicate to you the participation that she had in the Komsomol.

Mrs. FORD. She said that she did join it and then she was kicked out or something.

Representative FORD. Did she ever give you any reason why she was kicked out?

Mrs. FORD. She told me that one time but I don't--I have forgotten the reason, I really don't remember.

Representative FORD. Was it an ordinary thing for a person to be kicked out of the Komsomol, so far as you know?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I believe you have to be the sort, if you join it you have to perform your duty, you have to go the meetings and be sort of a leader in the community or in school or take on their work so if you don't do that, I think they just consider you not being a good young Komsomol. They wouldn't keep you there.

Representative FORD. Did Marina ever tell you that she did or didn't join the Communist Party in the Soviet Union?

Mrs. FORD. She couldn't join it.

Representative FORD. Why couldn't she join it?

Mrs. FORD. Well, not from my own experience but from what I know about it, I think you have to be over 20 years and you have to be 5 years, you have a 5-year waiting period until they check your background and see if you are good enough person to get by their standards to join the Party.

Representative FORD. Did Marina ever discuss with you any schools or training programs that Lee participated in while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mrs. FORD. No; she never has said anything of that sort. I think she said one time that they wanted to send him to a school which would give him a profession but it had nothing to do with military or anything like that but somehow he didn't go there. But I have forgotten what he had to be so he was just working regular labor in the factory.

Representative FORD. You don't recall anything, any details?

Mrs. FORD. I don't recall any details of the school.

Representative FORD. You don't recall any of the details of the kind of school?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; but it was some sort of a civilian, it had nothing to do with military or espionage or anything like that that I remember.

Representative FORD. At the time that Marina and June stayed with you and your husband in October or November of 1962, did Lee Oswald visit her at your home?

Mrs. FORD. No. He did not.

Representative FORD. He called her?

Mrs. FORD. He called on the telephone.

Representative FORD. Did anyone else visit her while she was staying at your home on this occasion?

Mrs. FORD. On this occasion, I think the only person who visited was Anna Ray to whom she was to go later after she stayed with me.

Representative FORD. Excuse me, I didn't hear you.

Mrs. FORD. Anna Ray, that is another Russian-born person to whom Marina would go from my house, she came to visit her.

Representative FORD. The individual who kept Marina after she left you?

Mrs. FORD. That is right, that is correct.

Representative FORD. And his name was what?

Mrs. FORD. Her name.

Representative FORD. What is the name?

Mrs. FORD. Anna Ray.

Representative FORD. That is the only person who visited Marina during this period?

Mrs. FORD. At my house; yes.

Representative FORD. I would like to clarify the time and the circumstances of this discussion you had with Marina about the Nixon affair.

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Representative FORD. You had gone to Mr. McKenzie's office with Marina?

Mrs. FORD. That is right. I had gone translating for her; yes.

Representative FORD. You were in Mr. McKenzie's office?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Representative FORD. With Marina. Who else was there?

Mrs. FORD. And at that time she had a date with the FBI, and we were doing, I was translating some legal work for her about dismissing her old attorney and manager and the FBI called me to come later after we finished with that, and they told Marina why they wanted to talk with her, and McKenzie took us in that other office and he asked Marina about that, and told her that that is what she had to talk about, and she was really angry. She said the thought Robert had said, I mean she did not tell anybody about it, and she didn't want to talk about it, and now she has to talk about it to the FBI since Robert mentioned it.

Representative FORD. In this meeting there was Mr. McKenzie?

Mrs. FORD. That is right. Mr. McKenzie, Marina and I.

Representative FORD. Just the three of you?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Representative FORD. In a room in Mr. McKenzie's office?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; in one of the rooms in his office.

Representative FORD. And Mr. McKenzie said what?

Mrs. FORD. Oh, I think that maybe--frankly, I don't know what he was telling her.

Representative FORD. Was this meeting only about the Nixon affair?

Mrs. FORD. I am very sorry, but I think that during that time when we were talking about that it was when he was talking about General Walker, that he was--it was not about Nixon that they talked about.

Representative FORD. This meeting with Mr. McKenzie, when Marina and you were discussing matters----

Mrs. FORD. That was about General Walker.

I think Mr. McKenzie didn't know what they would talk about but he advised her "They will ask you if there were two guns, you tell them there was one gun that was used," he told her.

Representative FORD. One gun used where?

Mrs. FORD. For Walker, I mean the same one they had at the house or something, frankly this is what I had----

Representative FORD. I think you just said at the outset of this meeting the prime purpose or the principal purpose was to discuss the Walker affair.

Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is right.

Representative FORD. How did the Nixon affair come up?

Mrs. FORD. I just can't recollect how.

Representative FORD. Did McKenzie raise the question or did Marina raise it?

Mrs. FORD. How it was raised, I didn't get to discuss it with her about the particulars about it, except one time in the car, I don't remember how it came up and I was asking well how did that happen, and she was rather hesitating to talk about it, but she said, "Well, I locked him in the bathroom, and he was screaming or something, he was wanting to get out", and she tried to talk him out of it and he said, "if you are going to keep me in here just let me have a book to read", and I told her how did he get out later, she said, "Well, he rather cooled off and I talked him out of it."

Representative FORD. You say this conversation took place in the car?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; this conversation right now took place in the car but I don't know how it got started, I have forgotten.

Representative FORD. When you say it took place in the car, was it in the car going from Mr. McKenzie's to your home?

Mrs. FORD. That is right, to my home. She was staying at my place at this time.

Representative FORD. Did she talk rather freely about this Nixon----

Mrs. FORD. She didn't talk about it freely, I thought she was rather hesitant about going into particulars.

Representative FORD. Did she ever indicate why she had not discussed this incident with anybody, including the Commission?

Mrs. FORD. Well, right during that time, just before that, in the office, Mr. McKenzie, and I told her before that, "if you know anything that I think that would help either the Commission or the FBI I thought it my duty to tell them," and I told her that if she doesn't want me to say to anybody just don't talk to me about it, that is what I told her.

But because and maybe that is why she was hesitating to talk to me, Mr. McKenzie told it to her and had a written statement to her, too, if he feels there is anything he will have to say he will say it in connection with the President.

So it was said right before that, and I feel maybe that is why she was hesitating to talk to me.

Representative FORD. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Ford, you are an American citizen now, aren't you?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. How did you acquire it, by marriage to your first soldier husband?

Mrs. FORD. No. I had to apply for it.

The CHAIRMAN. Where were you naturalized?

Mrs. FORD. In Dallas, Tex.

The CHAIRMAN. In the Federal court?

Mrs. FORD. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. When was that about?

Mrs. FORD. I have it on my bracelet, so I will give you the correct time, I got it in 1952.

The CHAIRMAN. In 1952?

Mrs. FORD. This I got on "This is Your Life". I was on "This is Your Life".

Representative FORD. Mr. Chairman, I have one or two more questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead.

Representative FORD. I wish you could clarify, if you can, the comment you made about Marina mentioning two guns.

Mrs. FORD. She did not mention two guns ever to me or anything like that. But I don't know how or why he advised her to say that at all, I don't know, it was not clear to me.

Representative FORD. When you say he, was that Mr. McKenzie?

Mrs. FORD. That is right, because the only reason--the only thing I remember about Marina was saying that Lee had laughed about the attempt to kill General Walker, that he said that they were even too stupid to find out what gun was used to kill him because it was written up a different type of gun was used other than the one really used by Lee.

Representative FORD. Marina said that?

Mrs. FORD. That is right. Lee had commented on that they were not even smart enough to identify the gun by a bullet.

Representative FORD. When did Marina say Lee said that?

Mrs. FORD. Well, soon after he--maybe that evening or the next day but I mean after he had attempted to shoot the General.

Representative FORD. After he had attempted to shoot General Walker?

Mrs. FORD. That is right. And the bullet was found in the room and I suppose by the bullet they had tried to identify the gun or whatever he used to shoot him and it was identified wrong.

It was not, I don't know what kind of gun he used, frankly, I don't know, but he said, he just made a comment, they weren't even smart enough to identify the gun by the bullet.

Representative FORD. Lee said that to Marina?

Mrs. FORD. To Marina, that is right.

Representative FORD. Right after the incident?

Mrs. FORD. Right after the incident, that is correct.

Representative FORD. And Marina told Mr. McKenzie that?

Mrs. FORD. I don't know.

Representative FORD. You don't know?

Mrs. FORD. But I think right after that it was in the papers that a different type of gun was used, and to shoot the President was different again, there were supposedly two guns, you see, so maybe that is why he advised her, that he had only one gun. I really don't know how this came out.

The CHAIRMAN. That is all. Thank you very much for coming, you have been very helpful.

Mrs. FORD. I hope so. I frankly wish I had questioned her more but I didn't feel it was my duty, but I wanted to tell you what she said to me.

The CHAIRMAN. We will take a short recess.

(Short recess.)

TESTIMONY OF DECLAN P. FORD

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Ford, you were given a copy of this statement were you?

Mr. FORD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. As to the purpose so you understand what we are doing here today?

Mr. FORD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you please rise. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FORD. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Be seated please and Mr. Liebeler will ask the questions.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you state your name, sir?

Mr. FORD. Declan P. Ford.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?

Mr. FORD. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment?

Mr. FORD. I am a consulting geologist.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you independently employed?

Mr. FORD. Yes; I am self-employed.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you give us a brief statement of your educational background?

Mr. FORD. I was graduated from the University of California at Los Angeles in 1948, with a Bachelor of Arts degree in Geology, and was first employed by Tidewater Associated Oil Co. as a geologist, later with the Continental Oil Co. as a geologist, and then later with DeGollyer McNaughton, a consulting firm in Dallas, Tex., until 1962, October. I went into business for myself as a consulting geologist. All this time has been in exploration, development of oil and gas fields both in the United States and foreign countries.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been employed in and about the Fort Worth and Dallas area ever since you graduated from college?

Mr. FORD. No; I have only been in the Dallas area since January 1960.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife's name is Katherine Ford?

Mr. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you married?

Mr. FORD. We were married July 1960. July 2.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you married at any time prior to that?

Mr. FORD. No; I was not.

The CHAIRMAN. '62, did you say?

Mr. FORD. 1960.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you acquainted with Jack Ruby?

Mr. FORD. No; I am not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Lee Oswald and Jack Ruby?

Mr. FORD. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Directly or indirectly?

Mr. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. John M. Grizzaffi?

Mr. FORD. Yes; I knew him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not he is a friend or associate of Jack Ruby's?

Mr. FORD. I don't know. I have heard that he knows Jack Ruby, I don't know how well he knows him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mr. Grizzaffi had any contact with the Oswalds or knew them?

Mr. FORD. None that I knew of.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first meet the Oswalds?

Mr. FORD. In 1962, and I think it was in August of 1962, I am not sure of the exact date.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances of the meeting?

Mr. FORD. I was a guest at the house of some friends, the Mellers, and the Oswalds had been there for lunch, and we came over after lunch to have cocktails and to meet Lee and Marina Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there at that time?

Mr. FORD. Mr. Meller and his wife, Anna Meller, George Bouhe, my wife and myself, Marina and Lee Oswald, and I can't remember for sure if anybody else. It seems to me there was somebody else there but I can't remember who it was. Someone else may have come in later or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention George Bouhe as being there?

Mr. FORD. Yes; George Bouhe was there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned him?

Mr. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who invited you to that luncheon?

Mr. FORD. Mrs. Meller.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard of the Oswalds prior to that time?

Mr. FORD. Yes; I had.

Mr. LIEBELER. How?

Mr. FORD. I first heard of them, I think, from either George Bouhe or maybe from Max Clark who lives in Fort Worth but I think it was George Bouhe. He had mentioned the name of Lee Oswald and briefly described his history, his story of his going to Russia, attempting to give up his American citizenship, and later returning from Russia with a Russian wife and child, and living in Fort Worth, and we were, my wife is Russian and we were interested in meeting her. George Bouhe, I think, at the time was attempting to help Lee Oswald find employment.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "her" in that sentence you are referring to Mrs. Marina Oswald?

Mr. FORD. Yes; Marina Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the reason why basically you went to the lunch at the Mellers to meet Lee and Marina Oswald?

Mr. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any conversation with the Oswalds at that time?

Mr. FORD. There was, most of the conversation was in Russian which I don't understand. I had very little conversation with Lee himself because he spoke Russian most of the time that afternoon and Marina didn't speak any English at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations in English with Oswald about living conditions in Russia, about his expenses in Russia?

Mr. FORD. A little bit. He showed me pictures of people that he had worked with in Russia. I believe they were on a picnic together, a group of men, and various other pictures of places he had seen in Minsk, and he briefly described the living conditions in Russia, I guess the conditions under which he had lived in Russia, the small room they had to live in, and he said something about how much money he made there. I don't remember how much it was though.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of a job he had?

Mr. FORD. No, he didn't. I think George Bouhe told me he had been a sheet metal worker or something similar to that.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Minsk?

Mr. FORD. In Minsk, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald compare to you the amount of money that he was paid with the amount of money that other workers in the plant were paid?

Mr. FORD. No; he said nothing about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate in any way any source of income other than from his job?

Mr. FORD. None.

Mr. LIEBELER. At any time did he do that?

Mr. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn of anything like that?

Mr. FORD. No; I have heard people speak of it but I have never heard him or anybody that knew him say he had another source of income.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have heard people speak of it when, since the assassination?

Mr. FORD. Since the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you heard nothing of it prior to the assassination?

Mr. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get any impressions of Oswald at this first meeting?

Mr. FORD. I had an impression that he was not the type of person I could make friends with very easily. He didn't impress me as being friendly to me as a person. He was kind of closed up within himself. And it seemed to me he preferred to speak in Russian rather than in English. He wanted to practice speaking Russian with the Russian speaking people rather than talking to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Oswald have any bruises on her at that time?

Mr. FORD. Yes, she did. On her face.

Mr. LIEBELER. On her face. Was there any conversation about that?

Mr. FORD. Not directly with me. My wife told me that Mrs. Oswald told her it was due to some accident of running into a door at nighttime while she was getting up to see what--the baby crying, something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you accept that explanation?

Mr. FORD. I didn't--well, really, I didn't accept it. It just didn't make much sense but it didn't make an impression one way or the other to me. I frankly at the time thought of a standard cartoon joke of a kid explaining his black eye, by a kid explaining he ran into a doorknob.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything that happened at this first luncheon that impressed you about Oswald or his attitude, in any way that you think the Commission should know about?