Chapter XXXVI: Part 36

"I don't want to hurt Lee with this invitation to you. Only I think that it would be better that you and he do not live together if you do not receive happiness. I understand how Michael feels. He doesn't love me and wants a chance to look for another life and another wife. He must do this, it seems, and so it is better for us not to live together. I don't know how Lee feels. I would like to know. Surely things are hard for him now, too. I hope that he would be glad to see you with me where he can know that you and the children will receive everything that is necessary and he would not need to worry about it. Thus he could start life again."

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, having all this in mind and what you have testified to up to now, would you please tell the gentlemen of the Commission the factors and motivations you had in inviting Marina to come live with you; first to have her baby, next on a more extended scale, all of the factors that motivated you in your offer, in your own words?

Mrs. PAINE. The first invitation, just to come for a few weeks at the time of the birth is a simpler question, I will answer that first.

I felt that she would need someone simply to take care of her older child for the time that she was in the hospital, and that things would be easier for her if she didn't have to immediately take up the full household chores upon returning from the hospital. This was a very simple offer.

Mr. JENNER. That was all that motivated you at that time?

Mrs. PAINE. Now, in asking her to come and stay for a more extended period, I had many feelings. I was living alone with my children, at that time, had been since the previous fall, nearly a year, at the time this letter is written. I had no idea that my husband might move back to the house. I was tired of living alone and lonely, and here was a woman who was alone and in a sense also, if Lee, in fact didn't want to be with her, and further she was a person I liked. I had lived with her 2 weeks in late April and early May. I enjoyed her company.

Further, being able to talk Russian with her added a wider dimension to my rather small and boring life as a young mother. I didn't want to go out and get a job because I wanted to be home with my children, but on the other hand, I saw a way to, and that is part of what studying Russian altogether is for me, a way to make my daily life more interesting. I also felt when I first heard in March that Lee was wanting to send Marina back, that is how it was presented to me, that it just seemed a shame that our country couldn't be a more hospitable thing for her if she wanted so much to stay, that I thought she should have that opportunity.

I was pleased that she liked America, and thought that she should have a chance to stay here and raise her children here as she wished.

I might say also if I had not been living alone I would not have undertaken such an invitation. My house is small and it wouldn't have gone with married life.

Mr. JENNER. I wanted to afford you that opportunity. Now, you have related all the factors that motivated you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 410 the document which has been so identified.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to, previously marked as Commission Exhibit No. 410 for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. McCLOY. We have been going for an hour and a half. If you would like to have a recess you may have it.

Mrs. PAINE. I am all right.

Mr. McCLOY. All right, we will go on then.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned in the course of your explanation earlier a series of three letters. I hand you a draft of letter dated July 12, 1963, addressed to Dear Marina, consisting of two pages, which we will mark as Commission Exhibit No. 411. And another one-page letter which we will mark as Commission Exhibit No. 412.

In whose handwriting is each of those exhibits?

Mrs. PAINE. Each of these are in my handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. And they are drafts, are they?

Mrs. PAINE. They are.

Mr. JENNER. And you would then, after making those drafts put them in final form?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did you transmit the final draft of letter to Marina Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. I mailed them to her address in New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. Have you supplied me with your translation of both of those drafts?

Mrs. PAINE. I have.

Mr. JENNER. Each draft is in your handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And the interpretations appearing at the bottom of page 8 and the bottom of page 9 are the material you supplied me and they consist of your interpretations of those letters or translations, rather?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. They are dated respectively July 12 and July 14.

Mr. JENNER. I hand you a picture copy rather than a photostatic copy of a two-page letter dated July 14, 1963, and a translation of that letter which we will mark as Commission Exhibits Nos. 413 and 414, respectively.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 413 and 414 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to Exhibit 413, would you tell us what that is?

Mrs. PAINE. This appears to be a photograph of the letter I then wrote from my final draft and sent to Marina, dated the 14th of July.

Mr. JENNER. So that Exhibit No. 413 is the----

Mrs. PAINE. 413, the photograph.

Mr. JENNER. 413 is to the best of your recollection an actual picture of your final draft letter as transmitted to Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now directing your attention to page 10 of the material that you supplied me, and which you discussed with me last evening, you wished to make a statement to the Commission with respect to this letter, do you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Would you please proceed to do so?

Mrs. PAINE. I think it would be easier if I read what is here.

Mr. JENNER. Any way you want to handle it, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. PAINE. Marina stayed with me 2 weeks in the spring as you know, and I realized then what a proud and capable person she is. She was not accustomed to accept help from others, and I knew that her pride and independence would be a stumbling block to her accepting help even though she needed it.

I respected her for this and somehow I wanted to ease such acceptance for her, and to explain that the situation I proposed would be a situation of mutual help. I hoped--now I should say that in Commission Exhibit----

Mr. JENNER. They are to your right on the table.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; 411 and 412, I mentioned that if she were counted as a dependent on Michael's income tax his yearly payment to the government would be reduced by a certain amount, and that by that amount she--we could very nearly live--her expenses could very nearly come under this, so it would be more a case of breaking even than a case of her accepting so much as she might think from us. But I think that in fact this reference to the tax reduction did not encourage her, as I had hoped.

Mr. JENNER. It wasn't quite correct either, was it, Mrs. Paine?

(Laughter.)

Mrs. PAINE. Did I get a chance to read the second letter as written at 2 a.m. and I was hopeful only more than----

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I think the members of the Commission and also you from our talk last night, are interested in your letters which you have now identified suggesting financial arrangements to Mrs. Oswald, since to one who might read them without knowing the background they might seem crass.

Mrs. PAINE. I felt crass in Russian, particularly.

Mr. JENNER. I was not thinking in terms of your difficulty in communicating with her, but you had no selfish or ulterior financial motive, did you, in this connection?

Mrs. PAINE. Did it appear that?

Mr. JENNER. It might.

Mrs. PAINE. Even with such bad arithmetic.

Mr. JENNER. Your arithmetic was all right. Your interpretation of the law was not as good as it might be.

Mr. DULLES. Am I not correct, I understood you were trying to make her feel she was not going to be a burden to you?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. And were using certain subterfuges to accomplish that; that is the impression I got from what you said.

Mrs. PAINE. That is absolutely correct. That I hoped, and further I would say in the letters to her I made reference that this money not paid to the government would be therefore available for spending money for her. I had put myself in her position and thought wouldn't it be terrible to have to ask for a nickel for a package of Lifesavers every time you wanted it, and thought I wouldn't want to be in such a situation if she doesn't have her own, something she can count upon as her own money, it would be unbearable to her.

So I tried to cast about both for a way of making her feel that this would not be a burden to us, and a way of getting her petty cash in the pocket that she would not feel was a handout. So that it would be a legitimate possibility for her to consider.

I judge that my effort in this regard, besides the bad understanding of the tax law and the poor arithmetic, didn't help because of her following letter.

Mr. JENNER. That is what I was coming to. Before we get to that, Mrs. Paine, I direct your attention to Commission Exhibit No. 414.

Mrs. PAINE. 414?

Mr. JENNER. That is a translation of your letter, Commission Exhibit No. 413. Have you read that translation?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything in the translation to which you might desire to take exception or at least make a comment?

(At this point Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.)

Mrs. PAINE. One minute. Yes, it accurately reflects some of my bad Russian.

Mr. JENNER. You take no exception to the translation?

Mrs. PAINE. I think no.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, if you please, I offer in evidence, Mr. Dulles, may I have those exhibits----

Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted.

Mr. JENNER. As Commission Exhibits 411, 412, 413 and 414, the documents that had been so marked?

Mr. McCLOY. They will be admitted.

(The documents referred, previously marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 411, 412, 413, and 414, were received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. You did receive a response from Marina, did you not, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And is the response the document now handed to you marked Commission Exhibit No. 415?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. And you supplied the Commission with your translation of that letter and that translation----

Mrs. PAINE. 415 is that what you said?

Mr. JENNER. 415. It appears on pages 10, 11, and 12 of the material you supplied me.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You don't have an envelope but you have a letter.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't have an envelope. I don't know what happened to it.

Mr. JENNER. Is the exhibit in Marina Oswald's handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything on the exhibit other than that in the handwriting of Marina Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. There are a few underlinings on the page marked four.

Mr. JENNER. Who placed them there?

Mrs. PAINE. Which are my own.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Anything else?

Mrs. PAINE. Except for the underlining "he does not know" at the very bottom.

Mr. JENNER. "He" refers to whom?

Mrs. PAINE. Lee.

Mr. JENNER. You were about to state to the Commission Marina Oswald's reaction to your series of invitations. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you proceed then?

Mrs. PAINE. As reflected in this letter. This was the third letter I received from her after a space of over a month, and I had been very concerned about her. I was much relieved to get it. She said she had been to the doctor and her condition was normal. She responded to this series of four letters of which we have three in rough draft, saying--shall I read in some of the things said?

Mr. JENNER. To the extent that you desire to do so. We will not read the whole letter, it is quite long; that which is pertinent to what you have in mind.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, that for a considerable period Lee has been good to her, she writes. He talks a lot about the coming baby.

Mr. JENNER. Perhaps you might pick out--there are only about four sentences.

Mrs. PAINE. "He has become more attentive and we hardly quarrel".

Mr. JENNER. This indicates a change somewhat in relationship and would you please read that portion of the letter?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Could we have the date of this letter once again?

Mrs. PAINE. The date of the letter. We have no date on the letter. It was written somewhere between July 18 and July 21, which is the date of my reply.

Mr. JENNER. That is how you identify it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. This is 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Right. Again, "He has become much more attentive and we hardly quarrel. True I have to give in a great deal. It could not be otherwise. But if one wants peace then it is necessary to give in. We went to the doctor, my condition is normal."

And she thanks me for the invitation and thanks Michael also and says:

"I would try to take advantage of it if things really become worse, if Lee becomes coarse with me again and treats me badly."

Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to the paragraph following that one, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. PAINE. Now another question:

"If as is possible it becomes necessary for me to come to live with you in order to say that I am a dependent of Michael's surely it would be necessary to have an official divorce, isn't that so? But I think Lee would not agree to a divorce, and to go simply from him to become a burden to you that I don't wish. Surely Michael would need to have a paper showing that I am living at his expense but no one would just take his word for it, right?"

And I realized much later that in the Soviet Union you don't do anything without the proper papers, and just having a person under your roof for anyone to see, having them in fact eating at your table is not, would not be, sufficient proof--would not be sufficient there in Russia.

Representative BOGGS. It might not be here.

Mrs. PAINE. It might not be here. Well, in any case I judged she felt, reading my invitations this was of some importance to me whether Michael counted her as a deduction, and so on, whereas in fact this wasn't the point at all, but that I had hoped to somehow make, if possible, for her to accept such help.

Mr. JENNER. Have you finished your observations?

Representative BOGGS. As a matter of fact, there are certain limitations under our law as to how you can claim a dependent.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I asked a few people who didn't know much about it before I wrote it.

Representative BOGGS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The tenor then of this letter was as I gather from your testimony and as you have related to me last evening whether she would come to live with you in the fall or generally was something which now became subject to reconsideration?

Mrs. PAINE. Pardon?

Mr. JENNER. The matter of her coming to live with you, the possibility of her living with you on a more extended basis than----

Mrs. PAINE. Was an invitation I had made to her.

Mr. JENNER. And that her response was not acceptance but one that she would now defer?

Mrs. PAINE. It was a "thank you" and a refusal basically.

Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that letter?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. My letter is dated July 12.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Liebeler will mark that Commission Exhibit 416, which consists of how many pages, Mr. Liebeler, three pages. You have that exhibit. Is that exhibit all in your handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the draft of letter to which you have reference being your response to Marina's letter of----

Mrs. PAINE. Undated letter.

Mr. JENNER. Undated letter which would be somewhere just prior to July 21?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And is that a draft of letter in the same condition now as it was when you completed it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Have you supplied the Commission with a translation of that letter?

Mrs. PAINE. I have.

Mr. JENNER. We will mark as Commission Exhibits 417 and 418 two exhibits, the first being a one-page exhibit entitled "Translation from Russian", and the second being a four page photograph of what appears to be a letter dated July 21, 1963. Directing your attention to Exhibit 418.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you find it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify that exhibit? It consists of four pages.

Mrs. PAINE. It appears to be a photograph of my letter to her of July 21.

Mr. JENNER. Having observed it and looked at it last night, is it your best recollection at the moment that it is a photograph of the letter that you actually transmitted to Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to the next exhibit which is No. 418----

Mrs. PAINE. 417, you are talking about the translation.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a translation of the letter, of your letter to her?

Mrs. PAINE. That is far from complete.

Representative FORD. It is far from complete?

Mrs. PAINE. Far from complete. It is incomplete.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you make then, directing your attention to the translation that has been supplied us.

Mrs. PAINE. It goes as far as two-thirds down on page 2, you must have more somewhere.

Mr. JENNER. No; that is all we have. Would you mark with this red marker pen the point to which Exhibit 417 is a translation?

Mrs. PAINE. Here.

Mr. JENNER. Is the translation accurate up to that point or rather do you have any exceptions to it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In relation to what?

Mrs. PAINE. "This would" on the next to the last paragraph "this would offend my father very much." "This hurt my father", no subjunctive to it.

Mr. JENNER. Do it this way. Read what is on it, what the interpreter----

Mrs. PAINE. Wait.

Mr. JENNER. Said.

Mrs. PAINE. I guess that is just the interpreter trying to "offer you an alternative". State the question again. You want to know if I take any exception to the translation I have before me, this portion of my July 21 letter? They are all small.

Mr. JENNER. They are small and none of consequence.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. So far as you are concerned. Your translation, however, that you supplied the Commission is as far as you are concerned accurate and what you intend to say, at least?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I think it is what I said.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I offer in evidence, if the Chairman please, the documents that have been marked--may I have them please, Representative Ford?

Mrs. PAINE. These, too?

Mr. JENNER. Documents marked 415, 416, 417, and 418.

Mr. McCLOY. Do I understand there is not a complete translation?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. McCLOY. Of the letter. It is an incomplete translation?

Mrs. PAINE. There is a page 2 somewhere.

Mr. JENNER. That is correct. During the noon hour I will see if that is not a mistake and if I can be supplied with the balance, if there is a balance.

Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted in this form and then you can advise us after the recess whether there is anything additional to insert at this point.

(The documents referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 415, 416, 417, and 418, were received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. Now, there is a matter to which I would like to draw your attention in your letter of July 21, which is Commission Exhibit No. 416, the last portion of it, and I direct your attention, in turn, to your own interpretation appearing at page 3. The last paragraph, when you brought Marina to New Orleans, did you do anything by way of seeking to have people in New Orleans visit her?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I have already testified that after an initial warm greeting with Lee, they quarreled, and I was uncomfortable there, and wanted to get back home. I had thought of making contact for Marina with someone in the Russian speaking community in New Orleans, and later when I didn't hear from her after this note that looks like "I will have to go back to Russia after all," I much regretted that I had not made some contact for her, someone she could talk to, herself. And anxious, not having heard from her a month from the time of this appendage to my corrected letter, I telephoned Ruth Kloepfer who is the clerk of the Quaker Meeting in New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. Would you spell her name, please?

Mrs. PAINE. She is not someone I know. That is spelled K-L-O-E-P-F-E-R, and I asked her if she knew any Russians in New Orleans. She did not. I then wrote to Mrs. Paul Blanchard.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, when you use the pronoun "she" there you asked Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. I asked Mrs. Kloepfer if she knew any Russian-speaking people and described why I was interested in knowing. I must have given her the address of Marina, probably asked that she go and see her. In any case, I have a letter which followed that telephone call, which I wrote to Mrs. Paul Blanchard.

Mr. McCLOY. Pardon me, did you say you telephoned to Mrs. Blanchard or you wrote to Mrs. Blanchard?

Mrs. PAINE. I wrote to Mrs. Blanchard, I had originally telephoned to Mrs. Kloepfer.

Mr. JENNER. Did you make the telephone call when you were in New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. No; this was when I was concerned. I had not heard from Marina for a month. I did not know whether she was in good health or had gone back to the Soviet Union.

Mr. JENNER. So you called Mrs. Kloepfer in New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. After having tried to call the Murrets. I had not had their name accurately.

Representative BOGGS. How did you happen to write to Mrs. Blanchard?

Mrs. PAINE. She is the secretary of the Unitarian Church in New Orleans and I called the Quaker Church in Dallas to find out who was in New Orleans of the Quakers, and then I called the Unitarian Church which my husband belongs to in Dallas to find out who the secretary of the New Orleans Unitarian Church was.

Representative BOGGS. You do not know Mrs. Blanchard?

Mrs. PAINE. I did not know her, and I did not know Mrs. Kloepfer either, and appended to this that I am leaving with the Commission is my carbon of a letter to Mrs. Blanchard of the Unitarian Church, which I sent in carbon to Mrs. Kloepfer so each would know what the other was doing in an effort to find a Russian-speaking person who could be a contact for Marina.

(At this point Representative Ford left the hearing room.)

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you have now mentioned a letter that you wrote to Mrs. Blanchard; have you supplied the Commission with a carbon copy of that letter?

Mrs. PAINE. I have.

Mr. JENNER. And it is a two-page document, Mr. Chairman, dated July 18, 1963, now marked as Commission Exhibit 419. That exhibit has now been handed to you, Mrs. Paine. Is that the carbon copy of your letter to Mrs. Blanchard?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. You did not know Mrs. Blanchard, had never heard of her prior to the time you wrote the letter?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. It begins saying, "Mrs. Philip Harper, the secretary of the Dallas Unitarian Church, suggested I write to you when I told her of the following problem."

Mr. JENNER. Is the document in the same condition now as it was when you prepared the original of which that is a carbon copy?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 419 the document which has been so identified.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be so admitted.

(The document referred to was marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 419 and received in evidence.)

Mrs. PAINE. Will there be any difficulty that it starts with typing and then it goes carbon?

Mr. JENNER. Explain that.

Mrs. PAINE. I wrote two carbon paragraphs and then I thought I should write a carbon of this to Mrs. Blanchard and put in a carbon and then in my own copy put in typing.

Mr. JENNER. So that which appears to be a copy is an original and that which follows, what appears to be original, is an actual carbon copy of the letter you actually sent to Mrs. Blanchard?

Mrs. PAINE. With copy stated here to Mrs. Kloepfer.

Mr. JENNER. Did you hear from Marina on that subject at any time?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. In her succeeding and last letter that I got from her.

Mr. JENNER. Her succeeding letter is dated what?

Mrs. PAINE. It has no date inside. It is postmarked August 11 from New Orleans and sent to me while I was on vacation.

Mr. JENNER. We have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 420 the envelope and attached to 420 is what purports to be a four-page letter in Russian longhand--may we have this as a group exhibit consisting of the envelope and the four-page letter?

Mr. McCLOY. If it is properly attached I guess you can.

Mrs. PAINE. There is no date on the letter, if they separate you don't know what it is.

Mr. JENNER. We have marked the four-page letter as Commission Exhibit 421 in order to avoid any difficulty.

Directing your attention to Exhibit 421, do you recognize the handwriting on that exhibit?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is Marina Oswald's handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. That is a letter to you, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. And you supplied the Commission with your translation of that letter?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. That appears at pages 13 and 14 of the materials you furnished me?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that letter in the same condition now as it was when you received it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; with the exception of an addition in my handwriting on the bottom of unmarked page 3.

Mr. JENNER. Would you read that?

Mrs. PAINE. Which is a translation of one word.

Mr. JENNER. What word is that?

Mrs. PAINE. A word means to grow downcast.

Mr. DULLES. I didn't catch that.

Mrs. PAINE. To grow downcast, to lose courage.

Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to the envelope which is marked Commission Exhibit 420.

Mrs. PAINE. I want to make one other comment. I underlined the word on the second page that I have translated as "winsome."

Mr. JENNER. W-i-n-s-o-m-e?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The other underlinings in her letter are her own.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Directing your attention to the pink envelope which is Commission Exhibit No. 420, was Exhibit 421 enclosed in Exhibit 420?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.

Mr. JENNER. That also is in English, that is the address?

Mrs. PAINE. The address is in English, addressed to me while on vacation.

Mr. JENNER. And you received those documents in due course?

Mrs. PAINE. Which documents?

Mr. JENNER. You received the documents in due course?

Mrs. PAINE. It was not forwarded. It was addressed to me where I was.

Mr. JENNER. But you received them is all I am asking?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits 420 and 421, the documents which have been so marked.

Mr. McCLOY. They may be so admitted.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 420 and 421 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. There is one item in Exhibit 421 to which I wish to direct your attention. On the last page about the third paragraph from the bottom appears the second sentence, "Lee doesn't have work now already three weeks." Do you find that?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had any information prior to the receipt of this letter that Lee Oswald no longer was employed in New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. I had no such information.

Mr. JENNER. This was your first information?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that letter?

Mrs. PAINE. I did.

Mr. JENNER. I have a five-page document Mr. Liebeler is identifying as Commission Exhibit No. 422.

Mrs. PAINE. This is not what you want. You want my reply, don't you next?

Mr. JENNER. That is right.

Mrs. PAINE. This is not it. You have my reply but I had had no copy of that.

Mr. JENNER. We will keep that exhibit number. There has been identified as Commission Exhibit 423 an exhibit consisting of four pages, the first three of which are a photograph of a letter, and the last page of which is a photograph of an envelope. Handing you Commission Exhibit No. 423, is that a picture of your letter to Marina Oswald in response to her letter of August 11?

Mrs. PAINE. August 11. Yes; it is dated August 24, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. And you do recognize that as being a picture copy of letter you had written?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you supplied the Commission with a translation of that letter?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. I did not have this in rough draft. I had no copy of this. You may have a translation but I do not.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. I supplied you only on this summary that you have with a brief recollection of what it contained.

Mr. JENNER. I now hand you a document, Commission Exhibit No. 424 consisting of two pages which purports to be a translation of Exhibit 423. Did you review that translation with me last evening?

Mrs. PAINE. Briefly.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection at the moment of what you said last night that the translation is of Exhibit 423?

Mrs. PAINE. It is approximately what I recall writing. I didn't look at the Russian in your pictures.

Mr. JENNER. During the noon recess would you wish to look at that and if you have any exception you wish to take to the translation would you please state it to the Commission?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. May I intervene at this point about Exhibit 422, has that been properly identified?

Mrs. PAINE. No; not yet.

Mr. JENNER. Could we return it to the witness? Exhibit 422 is in whose handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. It is in my handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a draft of a letter?

Mrs. PAINE. That is a letter which I wrote but never sent.

Mr. JENNER. You testified about that letter yesterday?

Mrs. PAINE. I did.

Mr. JENNER. Did you not?

Mrs. PAINE. It is dated April 7.

Mr. JENNER. Have you supplied the Commission with a translation, your translation of that letter?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have with appropriate paragraph before it saying that it was not sent, that I wrote it not necessarily to send or give to her but simply to have, I think as I testified yesterday, the words at my command ready in case it seemed appropriate to make such an invitation.

Mr. JENNER. And this was prepared on or about April 7, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. I would judge on the 7th.

Mr. JENNER. Is that letter in the same condition now as it was when you completed writing it?

Mrs. PAINE. I have added since completing writing, I have added in pencil at the top, "not sent" in English. It is otherwise the same.

Mr. JENNER. I won't go into that further, Mr. Chairman, because the witness did testify about it yesterday other than to offer the document in evidence.

Mr. McCLOY. I simply thought it needed a little elaboration.

Mr. JENNER. You were quite right, sir.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 422 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. Where were you in the summer of 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. May I interrupt.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Did you want to make any reference to the reference to Lee's driving in Exhibit 424?

Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much, Mrs. Paine, and I do want to go into it.

Mrs. PAINE. I have it underlined.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles, would you be good enough to let me have it? This translation which appears as Commission Exhibit 424, the fourth paragraph reads "Lee told me that he learned a little from his Uncle how to drive a car. It would be very useful for him to know how to drive but it is hard to find time for this when he works every day."

Mrs. PAINE. I might make a comment about that.

Mr. JENNER. This is your comment, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. I might make a comment about that.

Mr. JENNER. This is your comment, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. I wrote that.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the Commission is very interested in the subject matter of Mr. Oswald, of Lee Oswald being able to drive a car and I think it might be well if we covered the whole subject from the beginning to the end.

Would you give the Commission your full, most accurate recollection of this whole subject? Start at the very beginning.

Mrs. PAINE. I think I learned either in March or April that Lee----

Mr. JENNER. Of 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. 1963.

Mr. JENNER. This would be early in your acquaintance with him?

Mrs. PAINE. Very early. I learned Lee was not able to drive and didn't have a license.

Mr. JENNER. How did you learn he was not able to drive?

Mrs. PAINE. I think it was related to his looking for work the first time in the middle of April, and I had learned he had looked in the Dallas area for work.

Mr. JENNER. How did you learn it?

Mrs. PAINE. We were talking about it.

Mr. JENNER. You were talking with Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you that he was not able to drive a car?

Mrs. PAINE. That he had never learned how.

Mr. JENNER. That he had difficulty in getting around?

Mrs. PAINE. Simply he had never learned how.

Mr. JENNER. He said this to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And I felt immediately that his job opportunities, the jobs to which he could have applied, and the jobs to which he could get himself would be greatly broadened if he were able to drive and said so.

Mr. JENNER. You said that to him?

Mrs. PAINE. And said that to him. Then when we arrived in New Orleans he said to me by way of almost pride that he had been allowed by his uncle to drive his uncle's car.

Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. Murret?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know whether there was more than one.

Mr. JENNER. But he volunteered the statement to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And it was something that had occurred after he had gotten to New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. And he was in a sense pleased to report to me that he was getting some experience driving. That his uncle had permitted him to drive the car on the street.

Mr. JENNER. On the street?

Mrs. PAINE. On the street.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion while you were in New Orleans to verify that in any respect whatsoever?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Or have it verified to you?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. This was confined to a remark that he made to you?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Then when I learned in Marina's letter of August 11 that Lee was out of work, I immediately thought it would be well for him to make use of those free weekdays, not only for job hunting but for learning the skill of driving and, therefore, that paragraph--shall we read it?

Mr. JENNER. Haven't I already read it?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't think so.

Mr. JENNER. You mean from your letter?

Mrs. PAINE. Did you read that?

Mr. JENNER. The paragraph "Lee told me that he learned a little from his uncle how to drive a car."

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you read that "It would be very useful for him to know how to drive but it is hard to find time for this when he works every day."

Just to be certain of this, Mrs. Paine, this was a remark made to you by Lee Harvey Oswald when you brought Marina from Irving, Tex., to New Orleans, and----

Mrs. PAINE. The second week in May.

Mr. JENNER. The second week in May of 1963. And then, according to the remark made to you by Lee Harvey Oswald that his uncle had permitted him to drive his uncle's car on the street in New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and he was proud of this.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ask at that time or any time while you were in New Orleans in the spring to drive your car?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at all during--did you have the feeling that he would like to drive the car?

Mrs. PAINE. There was no discussion of it.

Mr. JENNER. Did he demonstrate to you that he could drive?

Mrs. PAINE. There was no discussion of it.

Mr. JENNER. You have given us all that occurred in New Orleans by way of conversation or otherwise on the subject of Lee Harvey Oswald driving an automobile or his ability to drive?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you are telling us the whole story on this subject. So when next----

Senator COOPER. May I ask this one question?

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me.

Senator COOPER. Did Lee Oswald identify the uncle who permitted him to drive his car?

Mrs. PAINE. Senator Cooper, he did not. He just said his uncle. He did not identify his uncle by name.

Senator COOPER. Do you know of your own knowledge who the uncle was?

Mrs. PAINE. I can only assume.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. I can only assume it was the uncle he had been staying with. He had been staying at his home.

Mr. JENNER. You had met the uncle at this time?

Mrs. PAINE. Just met him.

Mr. JENNER. So it was the uncle with whom he had been staying just before he obtained the apartment at Magazine?

Mr. McCLOY. What is the uncle's name?

Mr. JENNER. Dutz Murret. This was the relative who had the nice home that Marina first saw when she arrived there and thought maybe that is where she was going to live, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Go ahead, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. PAINE. You want all other references to driving?

Mr. JENNER. Confining yourself to his ability to drive automobiles, when next, and take it in chronological order as to when you next recall it?

Mrs. PAINE. It came up next after he returned to the Dallas area in October.

Mr. JENNER. When was that?

Mrs. PAINE. After he returned on the 4th, to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. The 4th of October?

Mrs. PAINE. That was the first I know.

Mr. JENNER. We will get into the reasons and the circumstances but you stick with the automobile incidents.

Mrs. PAINE. He was looking for work.

Mr. JENNER. In Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. In the Dallas area and again, of course, I felt that he could find more jobs, be eligible for more if he could drive.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do about it?

Mrs. PAINE. I recalled that I had a copy of the regulations for driving, what you need to know to pass the written test.

Mr. JENNER. In what State?

Mrs. PAINE. In the State of Texas, and I gave him that booklet.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a discussion with him about your desire, your recommendation, that he qualify to drive an automobile in Texas so it would assist him in connection with his job hunting.

Mrs. PAINE. Probably. We certainly had conversation about it.

Mr. JENNER. Give us the subject of the conversation in terms of recommendations by you, or what did you say?

Mrs. PAINE. I again recommended, as I had in the spring, that he learn to drive.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mrs. PAINE. He was interested in learning to drive.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything to you?

Mrs. PAINE. I would like to offer to the Commission something we didn't get to last night.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mrs. PAINE. Which is a letter I wrote to my mother, which she just showed me recently, she just found it recently, which makes reference to the date I first gave him a lesson in driving.

Mr. JENNER. That would be helpful to us. May I have the letter, please?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now only a portion of it is applicable.

Mr. JENNER. Why don't we give it a number?

Mrs. PAINE. Another portion is applicable in another connection, which I would like especially to bring up.

Mr. JENNER. Having that in mind, we will give that document for identification at the moment only, the number Commission Exhibit No. 425.

I won't identify it beyond that for the moment because the witness will be using it to refresh her recollection.

Mrs. PAINE. I will read what applies here.

Mr. JENNER. You are now reading from Commission Exhibit No. 425.

Mrs. PAINE. Which is a letter dated October 14, in my hand, from me to my mother.

Mr. DULLES. Would you give your mother's name?

Mrs. PAINE. Her name is Mrs. Carol Hyde.

Representative BOGGS. Where does she live?

Mrs. PAINE. In Columbus, Ohio. It was likely written to Oberlin, where she was a student at that time.

"If Lee can just find work that will help so much. Meantime I started giving him driving lessons last Sunday (yesterday). If he can drive this will open up more job possibilities and more locations."

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. I want to comment too on the nature of this lesson.

Mr. JENNER. The Commission will be interested in that but you go ahead.

Mrs. PAINE. Now?

Mr. JENNER. Go right ahead.

Mrs. PAINE. I knew that he had not even a learner's permit to drive. I wasn't interested in his driving on the street with my car until he had such. But on Sunday the parking lot of a neighboring shopping center was empty, and I am quite certain that is where the driving lesson took place.

Mr. JENNER. That is your best present recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now I recall this also, and it is significant. I offered him a lesson and intended to drive him to this area for him to practice. He, however, started the car.

Mr. JENNER. He got in and started the car?

Mrs. PAINE. He got in and started the car so that I know he was able to do that and wanted to drive on the street to the parking lot.

Mr. JENNER. He wanted to?

Mrs. PAINE. He wanted to. I said, "My father is an insurance man and he would never forgive me."

Mr. JENNER. Your father?

Mrs. PAINE. My father. And insisted that he get a learner's permit before he would drive on the street.

Mr. JENNER. At that moment and at that time he acted, in any event in your presence, as though he himself thought----

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. He would be capable of driving an automobile from your home to the parking area in which you were about to give him a lesson. That was your full impression, was it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I should add that, as I am recalling, he did drive a portion of the way, he drove in fact, it is about three blocks, to the parking lot. I was embarrassed to just tell him "No, don't." But I did, in, effect, on the way there, when he was on the street, driving on the street in my car, when we got there I said, "Now, I am going to drive back." I didn't want him to.

Mr. JENNER. From your home to the parking lot?

Mrs. PAINE. The first time before we had any lesson at all. And at that time I made it clear I didn't want him to drive in the street. Also, it became clear to me in that lesson that he was very unskilled in driving. We practiced a number of the things you need to know, to back up, to turn, right angle turn to come to a stop.

Mr. JENNER. Was this on the parking lot?

Mrs. PAINE. This was all on a parking lot.

Mr. DULLES. Did I understand you to say he drove three blocks, was that all the way to the parking lot? So he drove all the way to the parking lot?

Mrs. PAINE. Perhaps a little longer. But a short distance, whatever it was, to the parking lot, yes. Rather than stopping in midstreet and changing drivers. Going to turn a right angle----

Mr. DULLES. How well did he do on that?

Mr. McCLOY. That is what she is telling.

Mrs. PAINE. No; that is a separate answer.

Mr. JENNER. She is talking about the parking lot.

Mrs. PAINE. I was very nervous while he was doing it and was not at all happy about his doing it. I would say he did modestly well; but no means skilled in coming to a stop and turning a square right angle at a corner.

Mr. JENNER. Was there much traffic?

Mrs. PAINE. No. But then too, I noticed when we got to the parking lot when he attempted to turn in a right angle he made the usual mistake of a beginner of turning too much and then having to correct it. He was not familiar with the delay of the steering wheel in relation to the wheels, actual wheels of the power----

Mr. JENNER. Was it power----

Mrs. PAINE. It was not power steering. But it has no clutch so that makes it a lot easier to drive.

Mr. JENNER. It is an automatic transmission?

Mrs. PAINE. It is an automatic transmission.

Mr. JENNER. Describe your automobile, will you please?

Mrs. PAINE. It is a 1955 Chevrolet station wagon, green, needing paint, which we bought secondhand. It is in my name.

Mr. McCLOY. But automatic transmission?

Mrs. PAINE. Automatic transmission; yes.

Then, in the later lessons, I think there were altogether three with Lee----

Mr. JENNER. Have you finished with this lesson on the Sunday morning, was it?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it was a Sunday afternoon and I drove back to the house.

Mr. JENNER. How long did the lesson take on the parking lot?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, 20 minutes, perhaps. I will say of him that he set for himself tasks; a good student in the sense that he planned now I am going to back up this way and I am going--one of the problems is to turn around and go the other way on the street. In other words----

Mr. JENNER. U-turn.

Mrs. PAINE. It is not a U-turn, no. It is a narrower one to head in back up and go the other way and he would set this problem for himself, how to do it, back up and do it, and set the problem of backing up, driving, going back, I mean. And set himself a course. I was doing this, too, but I was interested in the eagerness he had and his desire to achieve; desire to do this and do it well.

In helping himself by setting up these course plans, you could almost say.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Would you refresh my recollection of the date this occurred?

Mrs. PAINE. My letter is dated the 14th. I say, "I taught him yesterday, Sunday."

Mr. JENNER. Fourteenth of October?

Mrs. PAINE. Fourteenth of October. So that would have been----

Mr. JENNER. That would have been October 7?

Mrs. PAINE. Thirteenth.

Senator COOPER. May I ask a question here?

Mr. McCLOY. Senator Cooper has a question.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Senator COOPER. On the occasion when you drove with him, did you find it necessary to show him how to turn on the ignition?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Senator COOPER. How to take steps to start the car and put it in motion?

Mrs. PAINE. No, indeed; he had started it before I came out or else he wouldn't have been in the driver's seat because I didn't want him to drive on the street. So he had the car ready to go; backed out with a considerable bump.

Mr. JENNER. He backed out of the driveway?

Mrs. PAINE. I am recalling this now, I think so. I recall that he then didn't attempt to go, I didn't let him, but at one point we practiced parking on the street in front of my house.

Mr. JENNER. This was a subsequent occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. This was a subsequent occasion. But when the lesson was done he gradually let me turn the car into the driveway. This is harder and I was glad to do it and he was glad to be relieved of that requirement.

Representative BOGGS. Mr. Chairman, I don't want to interrupt this line of inquiry, but I have to go to a meeting at the Speaker's office and I can't be back this afternoon, and I wonder if I might ask Mrs. Paine several questions?

Mr. McCLOY. By all means.

Representative BOGGS. Not particularly in this line.

Where did you first meet Marina. I know you told us.

Mr. McCLOY. She testified to that yesterday.

Representative BOGGS. Tell me briefly.

Mrs. PAINE. At a party of people at the end of February 1963.

Representative BOGGS. How long was it thereafter that she moved into your home for the first time?

Mrs. PAINE. She first came on the 24th of April.

Representative BOGGS. And she lived there for 2 weeks?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative BOGGS. And her husband lived here--her husband was with her?

Mrs. PAINE. No. He had already gone on to New Orleans.

Representative BOGGS. When did she return to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. She came with me from New Orleans, leaving there the 23d of September and arriving in Irving the 24th of September.

Representative BOGGS. And she lived with you in Irving from the 24th of September until the 23d?

Mrs. PAINE. The morning of the 23d.

Representative BOGGS. Of November?

Mrs. PAINE. She left the morning of the 23d, she left expecting to come back.

Representative BOGGS. During that period of time did Lee Oswald live there?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Representative BOGGS. He visited there on weekends?

Mrs. PAINE. He visited there on weekends.

Representative BOGGS. How well did you know Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Insufficiently well.

Representative BOGGS. What do you mean by that?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I regret, of course, very deeply that I didn't perceive him as a violent man.

Representative BOGGS. You saw no evidence of violence in him at any time?

Mrs. PAINE. No, I didn't. He argued with his wife but he never struck her. I never heard from her of any violence from him.

Representative BOGGS. Did he ever express any hostility toward anyone while he was talking with you?

Mrs. PAINE. Not of a violent or----

Representative BOGGS. Did he ever express any political opinions to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, he called himself a Marxist. He said that on the occasion after Stevenson had been in town in relation to the United Nations Day.

Mr. JENNER. Adlai Stevenson?

Mrs. PAINE. Adlai Stevenson, and Lee had been to a meeting of the National Indignation Committee held another night that week, and he was at our home the following Friday night and commented that he didn't like General Walker.

This is the only thing I heard from him on the subject.

Representative BOGGS. Did he ever express any violence toward General Walker?

Mrs. PAINE. No.