Chapter XX: Part 20

Mr. BALL. Did you pull out a transfer that had already been set for 1 o'clock time?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. In other words, I just reached up on my cutter and just tore off one which is already punched.

Mr. BALL. Then did you punch it again or was it already punched?

Mr. McWATTERS. It was already punched.

Mr. BALL. And you had punched it at the end of the line?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. So all you had to do is pull the transfer off of the pile of transfers and hand it to the man?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. And you had anticipated at the end of the line that when you got to about this point it would be a 1 o'clock transfer, is that correct?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, that is right.

In other words, there is enough time on it, just like I say, within a quarter of an hour, but----

Mr. BALL. When you got to the police station that day did they show you a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell them about the transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I recognized the transfer as being the transfer that I had issued.

Mr. BALL. How did you recognize it?

Mr. McWATTERS. By my punch mark on it.

Mr. BALL. And what about the line?

Mr. McWATTERS. The line?

Mr. BALL. Lakewood.

Mr. McWATTERS. The Lakewood punch on it, and where it was punched and Lakewood with my punch mark on it.

Mr. BALL. Were you able to identify it any further as a particular transfer you had given to any particular passenger?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. Only----

Mr. BALL. Go ahead.

Mr. McWATTERS. I only gave two transfers going through town on that trip and that was at the one stop of where I gave the lady and the gentleman that got off the bus, I issued two transfers. But that was the only two transfers that were issued.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell the police in Dallas that?

Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether I did or not.

Mr. BALL. But you do remember it now?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

(At this point Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.)

Mr. BALL. All right. Now, what else did you do that day?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, let's see----

Mr. BALL. Did they show you any prisoner?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; when they stopped me over there and took me into the police department there, like I say, it was around 6:15 or 6:20, they took me down before the lineup there and asked me if I could identify anyone in that lineup as getting on my bus that day.

Mr. BALL. Did they take you down and show you a lineup?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You sat there with police officers and they brought men in there?

Mr. McWATTERS. They brought four men out. In other words, four men under the lights; in other words, they was all----

Mr. BALL. All the same age?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; they were different ages, different sizes and different heights. And they asked me if I could identify any man in particular there, and I told them that I couldn't identify any man in particular, but there was one man there that was about the size of the man. Now, I was referring back, after they done showed me this transfer at that time and I knew which trip, that I went through town on at that time, in other words, on the Lakewood trip and just like I recalled, I only put out two transfers and I told them that there was one man in the lineup was about the size and the height and complexion of a man that got on my bus, but as far as positively identifying the man I could not do it.

Mr. BALL. What was the size and the height and complexion of the man that knocked on the window of this bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I would say, just like I told the police, to me he was just a medium-sized man. To me he was, I would say, not, I wouldn't call him--just of average weight, and I would say a light-complected, to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. BALL. When you say "average weight" what do you mean?

Mr. McWATTERS. I figured just like I saw, the man, he looked like to me the best way I can describe him would be 135 or 140 pounds.

Mr. BALL. What about height?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I told them, it looked like to me he would probably be five-seven or five-eight, in that vicinity.

Mr. BALL. Anyway, you were not able to identify any man in the lineup as the passenger?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. As the passenger who had gotten on?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You said there was one man who closely resembled in height, weight and color?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who that was?

Mr. McWATTERS. Just like I told them, I didn't know who was who or anything.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever learn who that person was?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I don't know whether that was really the man or not, I don't know.

Mr. BALL. I see.

Now, I have a map here.

(Discussion off the record.)

Representative FORD. All right, proceed.

Mr. BALL. You remember you told us about the man that knocked on the window of the door of your bus just before you got to Griffin, wasn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; along about the vicinity of Griffin Street, it comes to.

Mr. BALL. You let him on the bus, and he paid his fare, how much is that fare?

Mr. McWATTERS. It is 23 cents.

Mr. BALL. 23 cents, and you went about down almost to Poydras.

Mr. McWATTERS. Almost, between Poydras and Lamar.

Mr. BALL. Between Poydras and Lamar, closer to Lamar than to Poydras?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And a man got on. Was it the same man?

Mr. McWATTERS. That was the same man who got on the bus that I picked up, in other words.

Mr. BALL. And the man you gave the transfer to?

Mr. McWATTERS. The man I gave the transfer to when the woman--in other words, when the man that got on Griffin Street there got off at the same place she did.

Mr. BALL. And he was only on the bus about 2 blocks?

Mr. McWATTERS. Two blocks was the only distance.

Mr. BALL. How long did it take you to go those 2 blocks?

Mr. McWATTERS. Now, he paid as far as from St. Paul Street. I made--there wasn't any traffic holding me up whatsoever, I come on right down to where I picked the man up there, in other words, about Field, and that is where the traffic was starting to back up to. So the best of my knowledge I would say it took me 3 or 4 minutes to get down there, so I will just have to say it was in the vicinity of around 12:40.

Mr. BALL. In other words, how long was the man on your bus, the man who got on, about Griffin and got off and you gave him the transfer, approximately?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, he got on, and when he got on, I made that one block, and then the other, well, I would be safe in saying he wasn't on there 5 minutes.

Mr. BALL. And you think he got off or on around 12:40?

Mr. McWATTERS. 12:40 that is the best.

Mr. BALL. What time did you say he got on approximately?

Mr. McWATTERS. On the bus?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I would say in the vicinity from where I left up there it would be probably it took me, I would say, 3 minutes to come, let's see, it would be Ervay, Akard and Field, that is about 3 blocks there where I left my time point which I would say just a rough estimation it would be with no traffic would be 2 or 3 minutes, I would say 3 minutes anyway.

So, it must have been somewheres 12:39 or--so.

Mr. BALL. When he got on the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. 12:40.

Mr. BALL. And then he was on the bus about how many minutes?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say he wasn't on the bus over 4 or 5 minutes, in other words, just made that 1 block there, and in other words, when the traffic stopped, well, that is when he got off the bus.

Representative FORD. During the time he was on the bus this man rapped at your door or was your door open, and spoke up and said that the President had been shot?

Mr. McWATTERS. He was on the bus, you mean was the door open?

Representative FORD. No. You previously testified that while you were stalled or jammed up in the traffic----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. A man came to the door of the bus and indicated by word of mouth----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. That the President had been shot.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Now, was the man to whom you issued the transfer on the bus at that time?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Now, the man who spoke up and said that the President had been shot, how loudly did he say that?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, he said it loud enough that I guess everybody on the bus heard him when he stepped up in the bus.

Representative FORD. In other words, that would be your best impression or best recollection that whoever said this, that the President had been shot, said it loudly enough for not only you but the other bus passengers to hear it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. Because he stepped up in the bus and when he made the statement in other words, he said that the President had been shot, because I am pretty sure everybody--he said it to the fact. I think that everybody, there might have been some, if there was anybody in the extreme back of the bus, might not have heard it, but I think anyone who was near the front part of the bus could have.

Representative FORD. But at that time when this man made this statement, there was a teenager sitting in the first cross seat on the right-hand side of the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. And the man who had gotten on the bus to whom you later issued the transfer, was sitting in the second?

Mr. McWATTERS. In the second seat.

Representative FORD. What is the distance from the door of the bus where the man was standing who made this statement to the second cross seat?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I would say, let's see, it would be I would say 6 or 8 feet.

Representative FORD. Was he sitting alone in the second cross seat?

Mr. McWATTERS. He was sitting alone.

Representative FORD. Did you notice any reaction on the part of any of your passengers to this comment by this man who made this statement?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the only reaction that I knew is when he got up and said that, well, that is when the lady got off first, which she jumped up and got her suitcase and said, in other words, made a remark to something. "I am afraid you are going to be tied up here in this traffic and I want to get off."

Representative FORD. Where was this lady sitting who got up and asked for this transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Now, this lady was sitting behind me, in other words, I am the driver.

Representative FORD. On the left-hand side of the bus looking forward?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; in other words, it is a cross seat. I mean a side seat, in other words, like the driver sitting here, the first seat is the one that runs parallel with the bus, in other words.

Representative FORD. Well now, the seat in which the lady was sitting would be parallel to the second cross seat on the other side of the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, in other words----

Representative FORD. It would be on the same line?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. The first seat would be ahead--the first seat on the right-hand side of the bus would be ahead of the seat where the lady was sitting?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, you mean the lady, I am referring to who got off first?

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. No, the lady--I was sitting in the driver's seat, she was sitting right behind me, in other words, facing out his way.

Representative FORD. But she obviously heard what the man said about the President being shot?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. There is no doubt in your mind she heard that?

Mr. McWATTERS. I wouldn't think so because when she got up and stated she wanted to get off----

Representative FORD. Was she any further from the man who made this statement about the President being shot than the man who was sitting in the second cross seat?

Mr. McWATTERS. She was closer to the man actually than the man that got off with her was.

Representative FORD. How many feet or how much difference?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the lady in other words, from the door here, it is just two cross seats, and two seats where you sit sideways and then the two seats in which he would be back here.

Representative FORD. Could you diagram that as best as you can?

Mr. BELIN. Congressman, we have a diagram. We have a picture of the side of the bus.

Mr. McWATTERS. Right here.

Representative FORD. Sit down.

Mr. McWATTERS. You can see it from this point right here, in other words. You see this cross seat, in other words, these first two right here, the driver's seat, you see the first two seats there, in other words.

Representative FORD. Could you sit down and mark it?

Mr. McWATTERS. This is the inside, let's see, this is the driver right here. Here is your cross seat right here. Here, about back here, is where the lady got off who was sitting on this seat.

Representative FORD. Will you mark that with an "L"?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, right here.

Representative FORD. Where was the man in the first cross seat sitting?

Mr. McWATTERS. Right here is the first. Right here is where the man that was sitting, got off, in this seat right here, I believe it is.

Representative FORD. Will you mark that "M" where the man who was sitting also got off who got the transfer?

Mr. BALL. Maybe we had better use a black pen that will show better on that glazed surface.

Representative FORD. This is where the man was sitting who you issued the transfer to at the same time the lady was issued the transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. And the teenager was sitting in what seat?

Mr. McWATTERS. Right here.

Representative FORD. Will you mark that "O"?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Where was the man standing who came to the bus and said the President had been shot?

Mr. McWATTERS. Right here.

Representative FORD. On the step?

Mr. McWATTERS. On the step. I guess, I presume this would be the second step there. To the best of my recollection he stepped up on the first step.

Representative FORD. Mark that "P."

Mr. McWATTERS. "P."

Representative FORD. Now, after the man who was standing at "P" said the President was shot, what did the lady do who was sitting in "L"?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the lady, she had a suitcase sitting right there beside me and she left. When the lady got up and said she would like to get off the bus, and that she was going to walk to the Union Station and asked me if I would give her a transfer in case that I caught up with her, and asked me if I would pick her up.

Representative FORD. You gave her a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. What happened?

Mr. McWATTERS. She got off and by the time when she was talking to me that is when he got up, this gentleman here in the seat got up, at seat "M" got off. In other words, the door was never closed of the bus from the time the gentleman stepped up in the door of that there, in other words, when he said what he did, and got on back in his car, in other words, the lady got off, and the man got off, too, both at the same stop.

In other words, the bus hadn't moved at that stop.

Mr. BALL. I would like to mark this as the next exhibit, Commission's exhibit, which will be the diagram of the bus with the initials "M," "O," "L," "P," will be marked as Commission's Exhibit 373.

Representative FORD. It will be so admitted.

(The diagram referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 373 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. And a photograph of the interior of the bus, I would like to have marked as 374.

And a diagram of the bus itself showing front and side as 375.

(The photograph and diagram referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 374 and 375, respectively, and received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. I will hand you a photograph of the exterior of the bus.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; in other words, that is the same bus number.

Mr. BALL. That is right.

Mr. McWATTERS. That is the bus it was.

Mr. BALL. That is the bus. Number----

Mr. McWATTERS. 433.

Representative FORD. So admitted.

Mr. BALL. These are all admitted.

Now, we have this map which is Commission's Exhibit 371. Can you show me your starting point which is where you started your time on Elm and what street?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is Elm and St. Paul.

Mr. BALL. Will you mark an "X" there with your black pen, or let's take red pen this time for you, on this same map, here it is right there, that is where you commenced your time, is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Put an "O" there.

Mr. McWATTERS. Put an "O" here.

Mr. BALL. Just circle that intersection.

Mr. McWATTERS. O.K.

Mr. BALL. Now, you went along Elm, westerly along Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right----

Mr. BALL. Put a "P" about the place where the man knocked on the window of your door of your bus and got on. Here is Griffin.

Mr. McWATTERS. This is Griffin right here, mark that with a "P".

Mr. BALL. And put an "R" at the place where the man got off the bus.

Mr. McWATTERS. Let's see.

Mr. BALL. Here is Lamar.

Mr. McWATTERS. Here is Lamar here. I want to find Poydras.

Mr. BALL. That is right in here.

Mr. McWATTERS. That would be, in other words, about the center here would be, in other words, a little bit closer to Lamar than----

Mr. BALL. Put an "R" there to indicate the approximate position where he got off.

"O" is where you started, so you had better raise those up to Elm. The place he got on and the place he got off.

Perhaps, if you would just draw a line up and put your "R" it would be easier.

Mr. McWATTERS. On Griffin here now that is where you want----

Mr. BALL. Where he got on, wherever it was.

Mr. McWATTERS. Is that where you want the "P"?

Mr. BALL. That is where he got on?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. O.K. right here.

Mr. BALL. And where he got off "R".

Mr. McWATTERS. That is a very short block right in between Poydras and Lamar here.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Now, let's use the map here. You made your start at St. Paul and Elm didn't you, and went west.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, you picked up a man who knocked on the window of your bus at a place in the street that was not a bus stop, is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. And its approximate location was where?

Mr. McWATTERS. At Griffin Street.

Mr. BALL. And you have marked that as "P"?

Mr. McWATTERS. Marked that as "P".

Mr. BALL. That same man stayed on your bus until you got to what location

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the location was between Poydras and Lamar Street.

In other words, I would say closer to Lamar than to Poydras.

Mr. BALL. At that point he got off the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. He got off the bus.

Mr. BALL. And you gave him a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you have marked that "R", is that correct?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, yes.

Mr. BALL. There is another map I would like to show you that hasn't been marked yet as a Commission Exhibit, and I will have that marked as 376, a map of Dallas.

You have already marked on this map, haven't you, or it has been marked in advance then by someone.

(The map referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 376 and received in evidence.)

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, take a look at this map and tell me if that map, the blue line on the map, indicates your route on that day, where you started in northeast Dallas?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, that is the original starting line there.

Mr. BALL. What is the street?

Mr. McWATTERS. I believe--I can't even see that small print on that. That is Ellsworth and Anita, that is where it is coming back there.

Mr. BALL. Ellsworth and Anita, and then you proceeded downtown along that course, did you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. This is Lakewood shopping center.

Mr. BALL. Do you have an alternative route through there?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, in other words, that is where the main thoroughfare starts right there at Gaston Avenue. Gaston right here which is the main street when you leave this shopping center.

Mr. BALL. You went down Gaston to Pacific?

Mr. McWATTERS. Went down Gaston to, let's see this is Hawkins Street right here.

Mr. BALL. Then you went left on Hawkins to Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. To Elm Street, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then you went on Elm.

Mr. McWATTERS. Went from Elm to, this would be Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. Turned on Houston Street viaduct?

Mr. McWATTERS. Left on Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. To Marsalis?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, this is the Houston Street viaduct and this is Marsalis where you turn and come off Houston Street viaduct.

Mr. BALL. Then you go south how far?

Mr. McWATTERS. Go south all the way to, let's see, it is Ann Arbor. This is all Marsalis right here.

Mr. BALL. A straight run south?

Mr. McWATTERS. Straight run.

Mr. BALL. Then you make a turn and go back?

Mr. McWATTERS. I make a turn, in other words, on Ann Arbor and in other words, just circle, make a loop, just circle right around this little shopping center here.

Mr. BALL. And go back.

Mr. McWATTERS. And right back down Marsalis.

Mr. BALL. Marsalis is how far from Beckley?

Mr. McWATTERS. Marsalis is, let's see----

Mr. BALL. This is Beckley here?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You can count the streets there, can you?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, it would be seven blocks.

Mr. BALL. Seven blocks, Beckley is seven blocks west of Marsalis, is that correct?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Your bus line doesn't run down Beckley?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. It doesn't run seven blocks, close to Beckley? Have you seen this? Here is Beckley and here is Marsalis, the bus line.

Is there a bus route on Beckley?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; there is.

Mr. BALL. Can you get a bus that goes down Beckley some place around Houston and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; the bus comes, the Beckley bus comes in on St. Paul and Elm, in other words, at the time that I was, before we started, in other words, that is where the Beckley bus enters Elm Street there and then he goes the same route through town.

Mr. BALL. Same route you go down to the Houston viaduct?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. In other words, after the Book Depository down there, he goes straight on.

Mr. BALL. Let me ask you this: The Beckley bus, the bus that will take you south on Beckley, has a starting point the same place as yours at St. Paul and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. St. Paul, in other words, the time element is the same. In other words, he comes in there.

Mr. BALL. Then that Beckley bus goes west on Elm the same as your bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. But instead of turning south on the Houston Street viaduct the Beckley bus goes straight west on Elm, doesn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. Can you show us the bus stop for the Beckley bus on this Commission Exhibit No. 361?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, yes; his last bus stop would be right here at the corner of----

Mr. BALL. Let's put a mark on this. Here is a red pencil, and put a mark on this in red and show us the place where the Beckley bus would stop.

Mr. McWATTERS. It would stop--in other words, we consider this corner of this intersection right here, any letter or what.

Mr. BALL. Just put a rectangular mark about the size of a bus indicating bus stop--take black ink and indicating a place where the bus would stop.

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, the bus would stop along in this place right here.

Mr. BALL. All right, now that is bus stop for Beckley bus.

Mr. McWATTERS. That is bus stop for Beckley bus.

Mr. BALL. Northeast corner Houston and Elm.

Mr. McWATTERS. Northeast corner of Houston and Elm.

Mr. BALL. The Beckley bus goes on across directly in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. As your bus gets into another lane of traffic and does not stop at Houston and Elm and makes a turn south on Houston.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then the Beckley bus stop, the stop of the Beckley bus, which is in black ink on the northeast corner of Houston and Elm, we will mark that with a big "B" which stands for Beckley bus.

Representative FORD. How long have you been on this run that you had the day of November 22?

Mr. McWATTERS. I worked this run for, I would say, this is the second year. This makes 2 years that I worked this.

Representative FORD. Two years consecutively?

Mr. McWATTERS. 2 years consecutively that I have been on this run and worked it.

Representative FORD. So you would be familiar with the route?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; just like I say, I worked it, this is the second year that I have worked the same, in other words, the same hours, and the same route.

Representative FORD. How many hours a day do you work this route?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, now, this one particular route right here, I work it only 2 hours and 35 minutes.

Representative FORD. Each day?

Mr. McWATTERS. Each day.

Representative FORD. How many days a week?

Mr. McWATTERS. 5 days, Monday through Friday. And after that, in other words, I work on another, a different bus line.

But this one particular one here is just 2 hours and 35 minutes each day.

Representative FORD. When you say a different bus line, you mean the same company but a different route?

Mr. McWATTERS. A different route.

Representative FORD. You would be familiar with the time schedules and all of the stops on this particular route from your 2 years' experience?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. May I ask a question?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Have you testified that you saw this passenger whom you later recognized in the lineup, get on the bus in the vicinity of Murphy Street--is Murphy Street on your right?

Mr. McWATTERS. Murphy Street is the street that, in other words, that comes in.

Senator COOPER. Does it run into Elm Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. It runs into Elm Street, it dead ends, in other words, into Elm Street.

Here is Field Street, in other words, across this intersection and we stopped across the intersection of Field, and Murphy Street comes in to the intersection at about where the bus stops, in other words, where Field Street stops and I guess that Griffin is the next small street that comes in just, it is just a short distance below.

Senator COOPER. Well, did the passenger that you have testified about, and whom you stated that you later identified, did he get on in the vicinity of Murphy Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Murphy Street--you proceeded from Murphy Street toward the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Is that correct?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Senator COOPER. Was the passenger that got on near Murphy Street the same passenger that you later have testified about who told you that the President had been shot in the temple?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they told me later that it was, but at the time they didn't tell me.

Senator COOPER. Who didn't tell you?

Mr. McWATTERS. The police didn't.

Senator COOPER. When you say this passenger got on near Murphy Street, was there anything about him that caused you to take notice of him particularly?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, no, sir. I wouldn't say there was. He was, I would say, he didn't have on no suit or anything, he had on, I believe, some type of jacket, cloth jacket.

Senator COOPER. What caused you to remember him getting on?

Mr. McWATTERS. What caused me to remember?

Senator COOPER. Yes; at the time he got on.

Mr. McWATTERS. Because, the reason I remembered exactly because I didn't put out but two transfers, and that, in other words, from where he got on and everything, I didn't have but one, there wasn't but one man on the bus and that was the teenage boy, when he got on the bus, in other words, when he got off, he was the only man except the teenage boy who was on the bus at the time.

Senator COOPER. Now was this man that you saw got on the bus the same one who told you that the President had been shot in the temple?

Mr. McWATTERS. The man who got on the bus now?

Senator COOPER. Yes. The man to whom you have just referred as getting on the bus near Murphy Street.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Is he the same man who told you that the President had been shot in the temple?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Who told you that?

Mr. McWATTERS. A man in an automobile in front of me, in other words, that was sitting in a car come back and told me.

Senator COOPER. Told you what?

Mr. McWATTERS. That the President had been shot, that he had heard over his radio in his car that the President had been shot.

Senator COOPER. I think you have testified that someone, some passenger on the bus, in response to a question that you had asked, "I wonder where they shot the President" said, "They shot him in the temple."

Mr. McWATTERS. Oh, that was now, that was after we had done, that is when I turned on Houston Street, the conversation with the teenage boy.

Senator COOPER. It was the teenage boy who told you that?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; it was the teenage boy, sitting on his right side of the side seat there, the one that I conversationed with about the President being shot in the head or the temple, I don't remember, but the teenage boy was the one.

That was after the man that already got off that had boarded my bus up around Griffin there.

Senator COOPER. Then the one who told you the President had been shot in the temple was not the one you later identified in the police lineup?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. This probably has been testified to, but where did the man that you later identified in the police lineup get off the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Got off between Poydras and Lamar Street.

Senator COOPER. Was that after you crossed over the viaduct or before?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; that was before I crossed over.

Senator COOPER. When did the teenage boy get off the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. He got off at Oak Cliff, I believe. He got off at Marsalis and Brownley.

Senator COOPER. Was that after the bus had crossed the viaduct?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is after the bus had----

Senator COOPER. Past the Texas Depository?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is about 3 or 4 miles out in the Oak Cliff section where the teenage boy got off of the bus.

Senator COOPER. From the time the man got on the bus, which you later identified in the police lineup until he got off, had you noticed him, had you looked at him again?

Mr. McWATTERS. Had I looked at him again?

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. Not until just like I say he was sitting--I was talking to this teenage boy and he was sitting right behind this boy, but I didn't pay him any particular attention, to the man.

Senator COOPER. You saw him get on the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Did you see him get off?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes; I gave him a transfer when he got off the bus, the same place that was, the same place I was stopped where the man come back and stepped up in the bus and told me what he had heard over his radio in his car, the same place that the lady got off, with a suitcase, is the place that the man got off.

Senator COOPER. The man you later identified in the police lineup?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct; yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did you pay any particular attention to him when he got off?

Mr. McWATTERS. Not no more than I did than, I think, when he got on.

Senator COOPER. Do you remember anything about his clothes or his general appearance in any way?

Mr. McWATTERS. Just like I say, I remember he had on, to me he had on just work clothes, he didn't have on a suit of clothes, and some type of jacket. I would say a cloth jacket.

Senator COOPER. I believe that is all.

Mr. BALL. You didn't--as I understand it, when you were at the police lineup, you told us that you didn't--weren't able to identify this man in the lineup as the man who got off, that you gave the transfer to.

Mr. McWATTERS. I told them to the best of my knowledge, I said the man that I picked out was the same height, about the same height, weight and description. But as far as actually saying that is the man I couldn't----

Mr. BALL. You couldn't do it?

Mr. McWATTERS. I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't do it now.

Mr. BALL. You signed an affidavit for the Dallas Police Department, do you remember that?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I will show you a copy of it, we can get the original if you want, but there is a copy of it, a picture taken of it.

Will you read it, please?

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. BALL. This document, I would like to have marked as 377, at this time, Commission Exhibit, with the understanding that we may substitute the photostat for the original.

Senator COOPER. Very well; let it be substituted. It has been identified, and will be identified.

Mr. BALL. Yes, it will be; I will identify it for the record as a photostat of an affidavit of Cecil J. McWatters made before Patsy Collins, Notary Public of Dallas County, Tex., November 22, 1963.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 377, and received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. Now, having read that, first of all, does that look like your signature, Mr. McWatters?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember the circumstances under which you made that affidavit?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I just told them the best I could remember.

Mr. BALL. I am showing this to you for the purpose of refreshing your memory.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, I know.

Mr. BALL. I know it has been several months.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, I know what you mean.

Mr. BALL. And sometimes when you see something that you signed before it refreshes your memory.

Mr. McWATTERS. It sure does.

Yes, that is what you mean, I know what you mean, I said that looked like the man I saw.

Mr. BALL. In this affidavit, it says, it mentions the fact that when you went to Marsalis and picked up a woman.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You asked her if she knew the President had been shot, you told us about that a few moments ago.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. She thought you were kidding, and you told her, "I told her if she didn't believe me to ask the man behind her, that he had told me the President was shot in the temple."

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was the man, was that the teenager?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, sir, that was the teenage boy. In other words, he was, I would say, around 17 or 18 years old.

Mr. BALL. You said here, "The man didn't say anything but he was grinning."

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you think that happened?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, when the lady asked him, he just kind of grinned, in other words, and she said, "This is not a grinning or laughing matter," or something to that effect I don't remember just exactly what she did say.

Mr. BALL. Now you told them at that time you didn't know where you let this man off.

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, I didn't at that time, I didn't know where he got off.

Mr. BALL. You told us a few moments ago you thought he got off another place.

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was that place?

Mr. McWATTERS. He got off at Brownley, because the man rode with me the next day.

Mr. BALL. You went out there the next day, did you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. With an FBI man or a Dallas policeman?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, I mean----

Mr. BALL. The same teenager?

Mr. McWATTERS. The same teenager rode with me the next day.

Mr. BALL. And you noticed he got off there?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, and I noticed, and I asked him, like I told him, I said that I was--I thought that, you know, that he was, when he first got on down there, I says, "From all indications, we had you kind of pinpointed as the man who might have been mixed up in the assassination and everything." And----

Mr. BALL. Do I understand the day after you made the affidavit, this would be the 23d of November?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That this same teenager got on your bus again?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, he got on.

Mr. BALL. And you noticed where you let him off?

Mr. McWATTERS. I noticed where I let him off, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that the reason that today you remember he got off?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is it today I remember, just like I say, I remember I talked to him the next day, and he told me where he got on, and he told me where he got on, and where he got off and where he lived, and, you know that----

Mr. BALL. Has he been on your bus since?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. He has?

Mr. McWATTERS. He has rode with me since.

Mr. BALL. Yes. I see.

Did you give him a transfer that day?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, because he gets on and he lives within about two blocks of the busline, in other words, where he gets off.

Mr. BALL. Do you know this boy's name?

Mr. McWATTERS. I believe his name is Milton Jones.

Mr. BALL. Milton Jones?

Mr. McWATTERS. Milton Jones. I don't believe I know where he lives, but I pass where he lives. But he told me his name was Milton Jones and he told me he was 17.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you where he works?

Mr. McWATTERS. He told me that, I believe, he goes to school half a day, believe he said and I believe he goes home and he has a part-time job, but he never did state where he works.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you where he went to school?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; he never did tell me where he went to school.

Mr. BALL. Or where he worked?

Mr. McWATTERS. Where he worked, either one.

Mr. BALL. You notice in the affidavit there it says, "This man"--referring to the man who was grinning----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. "This man looks like the No. 1 man I saw in the lineup today."

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who was the No. 2 man you saw in the lineup on November 22, 1963?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say, he was the shortest man in the lineup, in other words, when they brought these men out there, in other words, he was about the shortest, and the lightest weight one, I guess, was the reason I say that he looked like the man, because the rest of them were larger men than----

Mr. BALL. Well, now, at that time, when you saw the lineup----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were you under the impression that this man that you saw in the lineup and whom you pointed out to the police, was the teenage boy who had been grinning?

Mr. McWATTERS. I was, yes, sir; I was under the impression----

Mr. BALL. That was the fellow?

Mr. McWATTERS. That was the fellow.

Mr. BALL. You were not under the impression then that night when you saw the lineup that the No. 2 man in the lineup was the man who got off the bus, to whom you had given a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is what I say. In other words, when I told them, I said, the only way is the man, that he is smaller, in other words, he kind of had a thin like face and he weighs less than any one of them. The only one I could identify at all would be the smaller man on account he was the only one who could come near fitting the description.

Mr. BALL. Let me ask you this, though. Did you tell them the man, the smaller man, you saw in the lineup, did you tell them that you thought he was the man who got off your bus and got the transfer or the man who was on the bus who was the teenager who was grinning?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I really thought he was the man who was on the bus.

Mr. BALL. That stayed on the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. That stayed on the bus.

Mr. BALL. And you didn't think he was the man who got off the bus and to whom you gave a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. At that time you didn't?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is why I say I pinpointed that transfer on that boy as far as that is concerned. But at first, just like I say, I really thought from the height and weight of the two men, I mean was just like I say, was both of them were small. In the lineup they had, in other words, bigger men, in other words, he was the smallest man at the lineup.

Mr. BALL. We have got--we have this diagram that you have already drawn of the bus which has several initials on it. Could you tell me where on the bus this lady sat who told the teenager it was no grinning matter?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, now, that is, in other words, I don't think at that time--now this teenager was still on the bus near, but I had a couple of more passengers on there, I believe I had two women on there, but I can't recall just, when I picked her up where she sat down on the bus.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember you said to the woman, "Look at that man behind you?"

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, she was standing up here at the fare, paying fare.

Mr. BALL. And the teenager was where?

Mr. McWATTERS. He was sitting right here.

Mr. BALL. At the place "O", is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, at the place "O".

Mr. BALL. I see.

Mr. McWATTERS. That is where the conversation was going on.

Mr. BALL. Mr. McWatters, that affidavit you have there, will you look at another item you have there?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. "Today, November 22, 1963, about 12:40 p.m., I was driving Marsalis Bus No. 1213."

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. First of all, you have referred to that as another bus, Munger Bus, is that the same bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; in other words, that number there is my run number right here on my card.

Mr. BALL. I understand that, but do you call that run the Marsalis run as well as the Munger run?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. Well, here you can--let me show you here on this schedule right here, Marsalis, Ramona, Elwood and Munger.

Mr. BALL. Can we take this and have a Xerox----

Mr. McWATTERS. You can just take the whole thing.

Mr. BALL. All right. We will have a Xerox of this and mark it 378, a Xerox copy.

Will you identify that document and tell me what it is?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 378, for identification.)

Mr. McWATTERS. This is a schedule, I will just say a bus schedule.

Mr. BALL. That is for the Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger run?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. Run 1213. Is this the run schedule that was in effect on November 22, 1963?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. BALL. It shows here at St. Paul you were to leave at 12:36; is that correct?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. We will make a photostat of that and we will give you back the original.

Mr. McWATTERS. You can keep that if you want to. They made another copy of it.

Mr. BALL. All right, then, we will keep this as an original.

Can this be introduced into evidence, Senator?

Senator COOPER. Yes, let it be made a part of the evidence.

(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 378, was received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. I have a few more questions to ask you, a few more questions, Mr. McWatters.

Let's look again at this affidavit.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. "I picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm around Houston," as I remember you didn't stop at Elm and Houston; you stopped at Record and Houston for a pickup.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember having picked up any man around the lower end of town at Elm around Houston?

Mr. McWATTERS. Elm and Houston?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. No, no, sir; I didn't pick up. I made a statement here I picked up----

Mr. BALL. Take a look at it, "I picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm around Houston."

Mr. McWATTERS. No, I didn't. I picked--"I picked a man up at the lower end of town at Elm," no, sir, I didn't pick up no man.

No, I was tied up in traffic there. Market Street is the--I must not have read that very good when I signed that, because I sure didn't. No, I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you pick up a man at Record and Houston?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You didn't?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; that is not even no stop.

Mr. BALL. In other words, this statement is not an accurate statement?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, sir, because in fact that day the police wouldn't let nobody, in other words they run them buses through but they wouldn't let nothing stop there, in other words.

Mr. BALL. Let's get back to that lineup.

Did you pick out one man or two men that night as people you had seen, as a person you had seen before?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I picked out, the only one that I told them it was the short man that I picked out up there.

Mr. BALL. And you thought he was the teenager whom you described?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, first that is what I thought he was.

Mr. BALL. Now you have named him Milton Jones.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, he was----

Mr. BALL. Now you realize you were mistaken in your identification that night?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. As I understand it, neither then nor now are you able to identify or say that you have again seen the man that got off your bus to whom you gave a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; I couldn't. I could not identify him.

Mr. BALL. This Beckley bus that we talked about, remember the one that has the starting point at St. Paul and Elm----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The same as your bus, the Marsalis bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What is the difference in the time run, what time does the Beckley bus leave--let me withdraw the question.

Your bus leaves St. Paul and Elm at 12:36, scheduled to leave there as of November 22d?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Using the same schedule, can you tell me at what time around 12:30 or so that the Beckley bus would leave Elm and St. Paul and proceed westerly on Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. He is scheduled in there the same time as I am, 12:36.

Mr. BALL. 12:36. Was that bus in the line?

Mr. McWATTERS. No. In other words, that bus was behind me, in other words, because when I got there as a general rule, when we pull up there every day, in other words, I am coming in one direction and he is another, in other words, most every day, we will pull up at this intersection at the same time.

Now, whichever way the light changes is who gets, in other words, who gets in front of who. But at that day, I am sure that I was ahead of the Beckley bus.

Mr. BALL. You are sure you were ahead of it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Because there wasn't another bus in front of me. I was the first bus down there that was tied up in there in the traffic.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the Beckley bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember whether he was behind you or not?

Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether he was behind me or not.

Mr. BALL. Can you transfer from your bus to the Beckley bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; sure can.

Mr. BALL. Any particular transfer point?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, there are particular transfer points, but we don't question anybody within the downtown section with a transfer.

Mr. BALL. If you gave a transfer to your bus, then that transfer would be good on a Beckley bus any place along Elm, wouldn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, it sure would.

Mr. BALL. Up to the place where you change courses?

Mr. McWATTERS. It would be accepted; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Your course is westerly on Elm, is identical with that of the Beckley bus between St. Paul and Houston, isn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. And from that point you go south on Houston, and the Beckley bus continues west on Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. So that would be a normal transfer point, wouldn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Houston and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. That would be a transfer. In other words, now, like I say, Lamar is the general transfer point of where all the buses cross.

Mr. BALL. Now, that night of the lineup, when you identified this one short man----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. As being probably the teenager that had been on the bus----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was there anything unusual in the conduct of anyone in the lineup?

Mr. McWATTERS. No.

Mr. BALL. Did any man in the lineup talk more than anyone else?