Chapter XII: Part 12

And they started using the sirens, and the Vice President and I both asked Chief Curry to discontinue the use of sirens, that we didn't want to attract attention. We were going on an unscheduled different route. We were not using any particular route. But in telling Lem Johns to get a car available, I told him to be sure and get a local driver who knew the area, a local policeman who could take us any route that we needed to go, and knew all the areas of evacuation and so forth.

So we went on to the airport. But we did have him stop using the sirens. And just before arriving at the airport, I called on the radio and told Air Force 1 to be ready to receive us, that we would be coming on board immediately. We arrived there and ran up the ramp onto the plane.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long after that did the swearing-in ceremonies occur? Approximately?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I would say in the neighborhood of about 40 or 45 minutes after that.

Mr. SPECTER. How long after the arrival of the Vice President on the plane did the party of the late President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy arrive at the plane?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Approximately--after we got on the plane, I would say it was approximately 30 or 35 minutes before Mrs. Kennedy and that party arrived.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long after the swearing-in ceremonies did the plane take off for the Washington area?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. After the swearing-in ceremonies, it took off immediately. It was just a matter of letting the people who had to get off the plane, such as Judge Hughes and Chief Curry disembark, and as soon as they had disembarked, we closed the door and started taxiing out.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any conversations between Vice President Johnson and anyone else with respect to advice on the swearing-in ceremonies?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir. I think probably the first thing the Vice President did after he got on board the plane was to place a call to the Attorney General. In fact, he talked to the Attorney General, I believe, two times--at least two times.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when those conversations occurred?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I was present when he placed the first call. I think he placed the first call from the bedroom there of the plane. Then someone from the Attorney General's office called back--not the Attorney General, but someone from the office--and gave the wording of the oath.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you informed as to what advice Vice President Johnson received from Mr. Kennedy with respect to the time of swearing in?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I heard him discussing this--because after we got on board the plane I told them to pull down the shades, and then I told the Vice President, I am going to stick with you like glue while we are on the ground here. And so we were joined by Mrs. Johnson and then by Congressman Thornberry and Thomas, and Congressman Brooks. And I heard them discussing about taking the oath immediately, right there in Dallas. I heard the Vice President ask about anyone in particular that should administer the oath. And as I gathered from conversation, it was anyone who was authorized to administer a Federal oath. And then he put in calls to Judge Hughes, and he told me to expect Judge Hughes and to be sure she could get through the security lines.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, were you informed that Attorney General Kennedy advised Vice President Johnson that he should have himself sworn in as promptly as possible?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, as I said, I was in the area, in their immediate vicinity, when they were talking about it. And this is what I gathered from hearing them talk--that the Attorney General had told him to go ahead and be sworn in there, as soon as possible.

Mr. SPECTER. And upon arrival back in Andrews Air Force Base, what activity, if any, were you engaged in then, along with President Johnson?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, on the plane, on the flight up here, there had been numerous radio contacts in making arrangements and so forth. But when we actually arrived, Mrs. Kennedy and the body were removed first by the lift that was provided, and then when the ramp was in place, our party disembarked from the plane, and then President Johnson had a short statement that he was to make, and we went over to an area where the microphones were set up, and he made this brief statement. And then we proceeded from there to the awaiting helicopter, which was just a few yards away. We boarded the helicopter and flew in to the south grounds of the White House.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you then accompany President Johnson to his home?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. He didn't go to his home at that time; but the answer to your question is yes, when he did go later that night. You see, he went to his office in the EOB, the Executive Office Building, and conducted business there until in the vicinity of 9 o'clock. And then he went home, at which time I accompanied him, and many other agents.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe briefly what security arrangements if any were instituted on that day for the Vice President's daughters?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir.

While we were in the hospital, receiving these reports relative to President Kennedy's condition, I asked Mrs. Johnson--I knew generally where Luci and Lynda were, but I wanted to get the very latest from her, since sometimes these girls might visit a friend or a relative. And I knew that Lynda was going to the University of Texas, and that Luci was going to National Cathedral. So I confirmed the locations with Mrs. Johnson and then told Agent Kivett, who was in our presence at the time I was talking to her, to make the necessary calls to have Secret Service protection placed around Lynda and Luci. And Agent Kivett made these calls and then came back and reported to me that Lockwood, from Austin, who is in the San Antonio office, but he was in Austin at the time, had proceeded to the University of Texas to get Lynda, and that an agent from the Washington field office would go out and get Luci at the school.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I move for the admission into evidence of Commission Exhibits No. 354, which is a reproduction of the overhead shot, and 355, which is a reproduction of the Vice Presidential detail schedules.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 354 and 355, were received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. That concludes my questions, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Craig, any questions?

Mr. CRAIG. No, sir.

Mr. MURRAY. I have no questions, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, Agent Youngblood, thank you very much for coming and testifying. We appreciate it.

We will adjourn now. We will adjourn until 9 in the morning.

(Whereupon, at 6:20 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Tuesday, March 10, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT HILL JACKSON, ARNOLD LOUIS ROWLAND, JAMES RICHARD WORRELL, JR., AND AMOS LEE EUINS

The President's Commission met at 9:15 a.m. on March 10, 1964 at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members.

Also present were Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Arlen Specter, assistant counsel; and Edward L. Wright, Chairman, House of Delegates, American Bar Association.

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT HILL JACKSON

The CHAIRMAN. All right, gentlemen, are we ready? Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, Mr. Jackson? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. JACKSON. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please.

Mr. Specter will conduct the examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state----

The CHAIRMAN. First, I will read a very small short statement for the record. The purpose of this day's hearing is to hear the testimony of Arnold Louis Rowland, Amos Lee Euins, James Richard Worrell, and Robert H. Jackson, who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these witnesses for facts concerning their knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy.

You have seen a copy of this, have you, Mr. Jackson?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, you may proceed, Mr. Specter.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. JACKSON. Robert Hill Jackson.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your address, Mr. Jackson?

Mr. JACKSON. 4030 Sperry.

Mr. SPECTER. What city is that located in?

Mr. JACKSON. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you lived at that address, please?

Mr. JACKSON. Since September of 1963.

Mr. SPECTER. And of what State are you a native?

Mr. JACKSON. I am a native of Dallas, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you lived in Dallas all your life?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation at the present time?

Mr. JACKSON. Staff photographer for the Dallas Times Herald.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. JACKSON. Since August of 1960.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline for us briefly----

The CHAIRMAN. 1950 or 1960?

Mr. JACKSON. 1960.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline for us briefly your educational background, please?

Mr. JACKSON. I attended Highland Park High School and then Southern Methodist University, where I studied for a business degree, and I did not finish. I lack about 8 hours of finishing, of getting a degree.

Mr. SPECTER. What year did you leave the university?

Mr. JACKSON. 1957.

Mr. SPECTER. How were you occupied between the time you left the university and the time you started to work for the newspaper?

Mr. JACKSON. I did some freelance photography work for a while, over a year, until I went into the service on the 6 month's plan through my National Guard unit, and I was a photographer there in the Army, on-the-job training, and then after I was released from the Army I did freelance work, I guess for about a year, until I got the job at the Herald.

Mr. SPECTER. How old are you at the present time?

Mr. JACKSON. Twenty-nine.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your marital status?

Mr. JACKSON. I am married.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have children?

Mr. JACKSON. One child. One girl 15 months today.

Mr. SPECTER. Going back to November 22, 1963, by whom were you employed at that time?

Mr. JACKSON. Dallas Times Herald.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your assignment on that specific day?

Mr. JACKSON. I was assigned to the motorcade to meet the President, Love Field, and go to the Trade Mart and that was the extent of it, cover the parade, I mean the motorcade and the speech.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you assigned to take pictures?

Mr. JACKSON. To take pictures, yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you meet the President at Love Field?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you take photographs for your newspaper at Love Field?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe briefly your activities at Love Field on the morning of November 22, please.

Mr. JACKSON. Well, we got there, I guess, 30, 40 minutes early.

Mr. SPECTER. At about what time would that have been?

Mr. JACKSON. I have to think to remember exactly what time, around 9, I guess, 9 to 9:15, I believe. And I took pictures there. There were other photographers from our paper there, our chief photographer. And we just took shots of the crowd, and waited for the President to arrive.

And then when he did arrive, our chief photographer left and went directly to the Trade Mart and I got into the motorcade to ride to town.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know exactly which car you were in in the motorcade?

Mr. JACKSON. We counted up, and it is either the seventh or eighth car. We said eighth car from the President, from the lead car.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say we counted up, whom do you mean?

Mr. JACKSON. The photographers in the car. As we left Love Field, we were trying to figure how far back we were and we all decided it was the eighth car.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you reconstruct that count for us which provided the basis for your conclusion that you were in the seventh or eighth car. For example, how many cars ahead of you was the President's car or the Vice President's car, if you can recollect, please.

Mr. JACKSON. Let me think a minute. I know there was a photographer's car directly in front of us which I believe had some of the local press. It was a convertible. Then in front were, I believe, two or three cars carrying the press, the White House press, and then President Johnson, I guess would be in the next car, and then the President in the lead car, or the next car, and I believe there was another car in the lead.

Mr. SPECTER. So as you recollect the scene there was the lead and immediately behind the lead car, whose car?

Mr. JACKSON. The President's, I believe.

Mr. SPECTER. And then immediately behind the President's whose car?

Mr. JACKSON. The Vice President's.

Mr. SPECTER. And immediately to the rear of the Vice President's car?

Mr. JACKSON. Press vehicles and I was told it was the White House press, two or three cars.

Mr. SPECTER. And then there was one car filled with photographers?

Mr. JACKSON. Directly in front of us.

Mr. SPECTER. Between your car and the cars which you believe to have been filled with White House newsmen?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Wasn't there a Secret Service car directly behind the President's car?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Between it and the Vice President's car?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; that is right.

Mr. SPECTER. Wasn't there a Secret Service car immediately behind the Vice President's car, if you know?

Mr. JACKSON. There must have been. That is what I can't recall is which was which in there. I knew the White House press was in there but I didn't know how many cars. I am sure there were Secret Service cars, yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. As you were proceeding along in the motorcade, were you within sight of the President's automobile?

Mr. JACKSON. At times. When he was--when we could not get a clear view of it because of the photographers in the car ahead of us who were sitting up on the back of the seat just like we were, we did not have a clear view of the car at all times.

Mr. SPECTER. As you proceeded along approximately how far behind the President's car were you, expressed either in cars, block lengths or in any way that is convenient for you?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, I would say approximately a block, average city block, maybe closer at times.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Jackson, I show you a photograph which has been marked heretofore as Commission Exhibit No. 347, and ask you to look at it for a moment, and see if you can identify what that photograph depicts.

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; this is the scene of the assassination, parade route, Main and Houston, left on Elm.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, which street did the Presidential motorcade take coming on to that scene which you have described as the assassination scene.

Mr. JACKSON. They were on Houston.

Mr. SPECTER. And before Houston what street were they on?

Mr. JACKSON. Main Street.

Mr. SPECTER. What direction were they proceeding on Main Street?

Mr. JACKSON. West.

Mr. SPECTER. Now without reference to the photograph, will you tell us what happened as the motorcade proceeded west on Main Street?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, on Main, as we neared Houston Street everyone was more or less in a relaxed state in our car, because we were near the end of the route, I guess, nothing unusual happened on Main Street.

The final block on Main, before we turned on Houston I was in the process of unloading a camera and I was to toss it out of the car as we turned right on Houston Street to one of our reporters.

Mr. SPECTER. Had that been set up by prearrangement?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. And that I did as we turned the corner, and when--it was in an interval and as I threw it out the wind blew it, caught it and blew it out into the street and our reporter chased it out into the street and the photographers in our car, one of the photographers, was a TV cameraman whom I do not recall his name, and he was joking about the film being thrown out and he was shooting my picture of throwing the film out.

Mr. SPECTER. At this point could you tell us, to the best of your recollection, precisely who was with you in the car at that time?

Mr. JACKSON. Jim Underwood from KRLD-TV station, Tom Dillard, chief photographer for the Dallas Morning News, and me, and then two newsreel cameramen who I know by sight but I don't know their names.

One is with WFAA which is the Dallas Morning News station, and I believe the other was channel 11, I believe.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you position those people in the automobile for us with respect to where each was sitting?

(At this point Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. JACKSON. Tom Dillard and Jim Underwood were in the front seat with the driver.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify who the driver was?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. But he was a sixth individual separate and apart from the five heretofore described?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. And in the back seat were the two I know by sight but I can't remember the names.

And I was on the right side of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. On the right side of which seat?

Mr. JACKSON. Back seat, sitting up on the back of a seat.

Mr. SPECTER. What kind of a car was it, sir?

Mr. JACKSON. I believe it was a Chevrolet convertible.

Mr. SPECTER. Top down?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you carrying one camera or more than one camera?

Mr. JACKSON. Two cameras.

Mr. SPECTER. And was one camera loaded at the time you rounded the corner of Main and Houston?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; and one was empty.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it from the camera which was empty that you had taken the roll of film which you have just described?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Will you now proceed to tell us what happened as you rounded the corner of Main and Houston, please?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, as our reporter chased the film out into the street, we all looked back at him and were laughing, and it was approximately that time that we heard the first shot, and we had already rounded the corner, of course, when we heard the first shot. We were approximately almost half a block on Houston Street.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you identify for me on Commission Exhibit 347, precisely as possible, where your automobile was at the time you heard the first shot?

Mr. JACKSON. Approximately right here, I would say the midpoint of this building. Approximately where we heard the first report.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you mark in a black "X" on 347 the spot where your car was at the time you heard the first shot?

Mr. JACKSON. Right here approximately. And as we heard the first shot, I believe it was Tom Dillard from Dallas News who made some remark as to that sounding like a firecracker, and it could have been somebody else who said that. But someone else did speak up and make that comment and before he actually finished the sentence we heard the other two shots. Then we realized or we thought that it was gunfire, and then we could not at that point see the President's car. We were still moving slowly, and after the third shot the second two shots seemed much closer together than the first shot, than they were to the first shot. Then after the last shot, I guess all of us were just looking all around and I just looked straight up ahead of me which would have been looking at the School Book Depository and I noticed two Negro men in a window straining to see directly above them, and my eyes followed right on up to the window above them and I saw the rifle or what looked like a rifle approximately half of the weapon, I guess I saw, and just as I looked at it, it was drawn fairly slowly back into the building, and I saw no one in the window with it.

I didn't even see a form in the window.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next?

Mr. JACKSON. I said "There is the gun," or it came from that window. I tried to point it out. But by the time the other people looked up, of course, it was gone, and about that time we were beginning to turn the corner.

Mr. SPECTER. Which corner were you beginning to turn?

Mr. JACKSON. Houston onto Elm.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photograph marked as Commission Exhibit No. 348 and ask you if you can identify what that depicts?

Mr. JACKSON. This is the School Book Depository. This is the window the two colored men were looking out of. This is the window where the rifle was.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark the window where the rifle was with an "A" and would you please mark the window where you have identified the men below with a "B."

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Referring to your mark of "A," the photograph will show that you have marked the window on the sixth floor with the mark being placed on the window on the westerly half of the first double window.

Mr. JACKSON. I am sorry. This window here on the very end was the window where the weapon was. I am sorry, I just marked the double--actually this is the rifle window right here.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you take the black pencil again and draw an arrow--before you start to mark, hear the rest of the question--as precisely as you can to the exact spot where you saw what you have described as the rifle.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Was the window you have just marked as being the spot from which the rifle protruded, open when you looked up?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection as to how far open it was at that time?

Mr. JACKSON. I would say that it was open like that window there, halfway.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a window on the sixth floor of the westernmost portion of the building open halfway as you have described it.

My last comment, as to the description of your last window, is only for the purpose of what you have said in identifying a window to show how far open the window was.

Mr. JACKSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Which you heretofore marked with an arrow, correct?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Also in that window I could see boxes, corrugated boxes on the left portion which would be my left, of the window, of the open window.

Mr. SPECTER. How many boxes could you see?

Mr. JACKSON. I couldn't tell. It just seemed like a stack of boxes.

Mr. SPECTER. How high were the boxes stacked?

Mr. JACKSON. Maybe two is all I saw. They were stacked, I believe they were as high as the window was open, halfway up the window.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection of the size of those boxes which you say you saw?

Mr. JACKSON. Maybe like that, that wide.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating approximately 3 feet wide?

Mr. JACKSON. Three feet or a little less maybe.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the height of those boxes?

Mr. JACKSON. I would say high enough to hide a man. Let's say, between 5 and 6 feet high, I would say to the best of my recollection. From the angle I was looking at it, I would say they were 5 feet high at least.

Mr. SPECTER. That is each box would be 5 feet high?

Mr. JACKSON. No; the stack, the stacked boxes.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you see how many boxes were stacked up to reach a total height of 5 to 6 feet?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you able to see anyone in front of those boxes?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Whether or not you could identify anyone, could you see even the form or outline of the man?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. It looked to me like the man was over to the side of the window because the rifle was at quite an angle to me.

Mr. SPECTER. Which side of the window?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, from the position of the rifle it would be the corner of the building, the east. It would be to the right of the window from my view.

Mr. SPECTER. Which direction was the rifle pointing?

Mr. JACKSON. West. To my left.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it pointing in a straight westerly direction or was it pointing at an angle from the building.

Mr. JACKSON. It was at an angle from the building. I am not--well, let's see--well, it wouldn't be directly west.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the general line of direction of the pointing of the rifle?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, directly down the street.

Mr. SPECTER. And by down the street you are pointing out what street?

Mr. JACKSON. Down Elm Street toward the triple, toward the underpass.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it pointed as you have indicated at the angle which Elm Street traverses heading toward the triple underpass?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. And the rifle was pointing slightly down.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you at any time in this sequence observe the President's automobile?

Mr. JACKSON. As we turned the corner--or we stopped where the intersection, actually we stopped before we began to turn left onto Elm Street, or rather I would say we hesitated and we were all looking down towards the President's car and I could see two cars going under the underpass. I barely saw the President's car. I would say just the rear end of it as it disappeared under the underpass.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that the only time you saw the President's car from the time you made a right-hand turn off of Main Street onto Houston Street?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time span between the first shot you heard and the last shot you heard?

Mr. JACKSON. I would say 5 to 8 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us a breakdown between the shots which you heard as to how many seconds elapsed between each one?

Mr. JACKSON. I would say to me it seemed like 3 or 4 seconds between the first and the second, and between the second and third, well, I guess 2 seconds, they were very close together. It could have been more time between the first and second. I really can't be sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure you heard three shots?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you mark on the overhead shot, which is Exhibit 347, with a "Y" as precisely as you can the position of your automobile at the time you heard the second shot?

Mr. JACKSON. With a "Y"?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Would you now mark on the same exhibit the precise position of your car as closely as you can recollect it when you heard the third shot with a letter "Z"?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. When, in relation to the timing of the shots, which you have described, did you first look toward the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. JACKSON. It couldn't have been more than 3 seconds before I looked at that window.

Mr. SPECTER. Three seconds from what point in time?

Mr. JACKSON. From the last shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you say from the last shot?

Mr. JACKSON. From the last shot, yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection or estimate of the speed of your automobile as you were proceeding in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street at the time of the shooting?

Mr. JACKSON. I would say not over 15 miles an hour.

Mr. SPECTER. What would your best estimate be as to the minimum speed?

Mr. JACKSON. Ten, I would say.

Mr. SPECTER. Where, in the window were the two Negro men, whom you have described?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, there was one in each of those double windows.

Mr. SPECTER. On which floor was that?

Mr. JACKSON. The fifth floor.

Mr. SPECTER. And will you place an arrow where you saw each of those men, please?

Mr. JACKSON. Each one of them?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any reaction from either or both of those two men when you saw them?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. Just looking up.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you see their faces reasonably clearly to observe that they were looking up.

Mr. JACKSON. I could tell they were looking up because they were leaning way out just like that. I couldn't see their faces very well at all.

Mr. SPECTER. The witness has leaned forward and turned his head to the right and looking upward as he sits in the witness chair, may the record show.

Representative FORD. Did they both turn the same way as you have indicated in answer to Mr. Specter's question?

Mr. JACKSON. To the best of my recollection one man looked up to his right and the other man looked up like this to his left, one in each window.

Representative FORD. Can you identify which to his right and which to his left?

Mr. JACKSON. I believe the one on the right window, my right, was looking to his right. The one on the west window, the one to my left was looking to his left. I believe I am right on that but I may not be because I just looked at them for a fraction of a second, I just followed them up.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance which separated you from those two men at the time you observed them?

Mr. JACKSON. I am not very good at distances. I was about the middle of the block, I guess. I would say around a hundred yards, I guess.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see those two men before or after you observed the rifle?

Mr. JACKSON. Before.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of how many inches of the rifle that you observed?

Mr. JACKSON. I saw the barrel and about half--well, I did not see a telescopic sight, but I did see part of the stock, so I guess maybe 8 or 10 inches of the stock maybe. I did see part of the stock, I did not see the sight.

Mr. SPECTER. Eight or ten inches of the stock, and how much of the barrel would you estimate?

Mr. JACKSON. I guess possibly a foot.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anyone's hands on the rifle?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as best as you can recollect it, what exact words did you state at or about the time you made the observation of the rifle, if any?

Mr. JACKSON. I said, "There is the gun" and somebody said "Where?" And I said, "It came from that window" and I pointed to that window.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect who it was who said "Where?"

Mr. JACKSON. Somebody in the car, I don't recall who.

Mr. SPECTER. Did anybody else in the car say anything else at that time?

Mr. JACKSON. Nothing that I could remember. I am sure they were all talking.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you say anything else at about that time?

Mr. JACKSON. If I did, I don't remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Did anyone in the automobile state that he, too, had seen the rifle from the window?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a conversation with all of the men in the car immediately after the incident?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir; because as, I guess after the third shot, I do recall the driver speeding up, and we hesitated at the corner before turning left, and three of the occupants of the car got out, jumped out.

Mr. SPECTER. Who were those three?

Mr. JACKSON. That was Underwood, Jim Underwood, Tom Dillard and one of the TV cameramen. The WHAA channel 8 cameraman and I were left in the back seat. We couldn't make up our minds.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there an individual in the car by the name of Mr. Couch, to your knowledge?

Mr. JACKSON. Couch?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. JACKSON. I don't know him.

Mr. SPECTER. Malcolm Couch?

Mr. JACKSON. The name is familiar. I might state what I did see as we did hesitate there, at the corner, I don't recall whether this was before the other three fellows got out of the car or not, I believe we were still all in the car, as we observed these other things, but in a fleeting glance as I saw the cars go under the underpass, I did see people running. I saw a motorcycle policeman jump off his motorcycle, in fact, he just hit the curb and just let it fall, and he went down on his knees on the grass, on the lawn of that parkway.

I did see a family covering up their child, and I just saw a state of confusion, people running, and that is about all I saw at that point of the scene.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Jackson, at the time you heard the first shot, did you have any reaction or impression from the sound itself as to the source of the shot, point of origin?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir; I didn't. It did sound like it came from ahead of us or from that general vicinity but I could not tell whether it was high up or on the ground.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say that general vicinity, what vicinity did you mean?

Mr. JACKSON. We were sure it came from ahead of us which would be in a northerly direction, northwesterly direction. It did sound as though it came from somewhere around the head of the motorcade.

Mr. SPECTER. From the second shot, did you have any reaction or impression as to the source of this shot?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. Through all three shots, I could just tell that it was ahead of me and not behind me, that is it.

Mr. SPECTER. And the same impression then prevailed through the third shot as well.

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. To me it never sounded like it was high or low.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had occasion since this incident to relate the factual sequences, your observations and what you heard? Have you had occasion to tell anybody about what you saw and heard as you have described it to us?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Has there been any variation in your recollection or impressions about your observations on these occasions?

Mr. JACKSON. Not to my knowledge. The other times were not as thorough as this.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, those are all of the questions which I have, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, any questions you would like to ask Mr. Jackson?

Representative FORD. Mr. Jackson, when and by whom were you questioned or interrogated subsequent to the event? I was thinking of the FBI, the Secret Service, or any investigative organization.

Mr. JACKSON. You say when, how soon afterwards?

Representative FORD. Right.

Mr. JACKSON. I would say within 2 days afterwards, let's see, the next day was the first day.

Representative FORD. Saturday November 23?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; I believe it was the first time.

Representative FORD. Who, by name, if you can, but if not by what organization?

Mr. JACKSON. The FBI called me, I believe it was Friday evening, and I believe I did give some information on the phone Friday night.

Representative FORD. Was that followed up----

Mr. JACKSON. And they came and saw me in the office, I believe on Saturday.

Representative FORD. How did they happen to contact you? Had you made a statement publicly before?

Mr. JACKSON. Our newspaper ran an article by me or I got a byline on it stating this in general which I have stated today.

Representative FORD. Following this initial contact have you made subsequent statements to various organizations or any organization?

Mr. JACKSON. I made statements to the Secret Service also. Other than that there was none other.

Representative FORD. How good are your eyes, do you wear glasses?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Have you had an eye examination recently or when was the last examination?

Mr. JACKSON. I had a physical when I reenlisted in the National Guard, let's see, that was, I believe, about a year and a half ago, I had that physical and I had 20-20 vision.

Representative FORD. 20-20 vision?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. You just indicated you were in the Texas National Guard?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. How long have you been in the Texas National Guard?

Mr. JACKSON. I joined in October 1958.

Representative FORD. And you have been in continuously since?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. So you are familiar with guns in general?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. So you would readily identify, if you saw it, a rifle?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Did any others in the automobile in which you were riding recollect as far as you know, hearing you say "There is the gun."

Mr. JACKSON. I don't know whether they would remember it or not.

Representative FORD. Have you ever talked with any others in the car?

Mr. JACKSON. I have never sat down and talked with them about the events, no, sir. I have seen them, of course, several times but I have never discussed it with them.

Representative FORD. You never discussed what you said or what they said?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. I guess the one man I have discussed it more with than anybody else was Tom Dillard, the chief photographer for the Dallas News, and we recalled to each other the scene but we really never went into any detail or as to what each one of us said either.

Representative FORD. At the time you were in the car, after it had turned from Main onto Houston, was there any noise from the crowd on either side of the street, Houston Street?

Mr. JACKSON. There was very little crowd on Houston, as I recall. On Houston itself. The crowd--I mean as compared to Main Street, to the other end of town and down through Main. The crowd thinned out as we got down near the intersection of Main and Houston, and there were a lot less people but I couldn't make an estimate of how many.

Representative FORD. There was no noise from the crowd at that point?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir; no noise, I would say.

Representative FORD. At the time you heard the first shot, what was your position in the car? Were you standing or sitting?

Mr. JACKSON. I was sitting on the back of the seat, on the right-hand side of the back seat, sitting up.

Representative FORD. Did you have your camera in your hand?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes; I had one camera around my neck and the camera I had just emptied, it was in my lap. I had thrown my film out to this reporter over the side of the car as we rounded the corner and I still had the camera lying in my lap, and the other one was around my neck.

Representative FORD. Was this the position you were in at the time you heard the first shot?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. After the third shot and as the car hesitated, did you see any law enforcement officials move in any concentrated or concerted direction?

Mr. JACKSON. I saw at least one, there may have been more, run up the School Depository steps, toward the door. That is one of the things I saw in this confusion.

Representative FORD. This was separate from the policeman on the motorcycle?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. Yes. I should have said that a while ago. There was a policeman who moved toward the door of the Depository. But to my best knowledge there was no concentrated movement toward any one spot. It looked like general confusion to me, and of course, I stayed in the car. As we did turn the corner our driver speeded up and we went by the scene pretty fast and I do recall this Negro family covering up their child on the grass, and I, as we passed them, they were just getting up and he had the child in his arms and the child looked limp and I didn't know whether the child was shot or not. But then we were moving fast and went on under the underpass.

Representative FORD. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wright, do you have any questions?

Mr. WRIGHT. No, Mr. Chief Justice, I passed a question on.

Mr. SPECTER. I have just one additional question, and that is whether Mr. Jackson had any occasion to see anybody leave the scene of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. That is all, Your Honor.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jackson, thank you very much for coming.

Mr. JACKSON. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. We appreciate it.

Who is next?

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony given before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Specter will conduct the examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please, but before you do, Mr. Chief Justice, is it your practice to read that statement to the witness?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I will read a short statement to you for the purpose of the hearing.

The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Arnold Louis Rowland, Amos Lee Euins, James Richard Worrell, and Robert H. Jackson, who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these witnesses for facts concerning their knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy.

A copy of that statement was furnished to you, was it not?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

The CHAIRMAN. You didn't see it. You have one before you. Very well.

TESTIMONY OF ARNOLD LOUIS ROWLAND

Mr. SPECTER. Will you please state your full name for the record, Mr. Rowland?

Mr. ROWLAND. Arnold Louis Rowland.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your address?

Mr. ROWLAND. 1131 Aphinney.

Mr. SPECTER. And in what city do you reside?

Mr. ROWLAND. This is Dallas, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you resided in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. ROWLAND. About 9 months at present.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live before coming to Dallas?

Mr. ROWLAND. In Salem, Oreg.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Salem, Oreg.

Mr. ROWLAND. About 3 months.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live before moving to Salem, Oreg.

Mr. ROWLAND. Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Dallas at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 4 years.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you born?

Mr. ROWLAND. Corpus Christi, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you lived in Texas most of your life?

Mr. ROWLAND. Most of my life.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your age at the present time, Mr. Rowland?

Mr. ROWLAND. Eighteen.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your exact date of birth, please?

Mr. ROWLAND. April 29, 1945.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your marital status.

Mr. ROWLAND. Married.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you any children?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been married?

Mr. ROWLAND. Ten months.

Mr. SPECTER. What education have you had, sir?

Mr. ROWLAND. High school.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you attending high school at the present time?

Mr. ROWLAND. I have finished, and fixing to go to college.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you graduate from high school?

Mr. ROWLAND. June 1963.

Mr. SPECTER. How have you been occupied or employed since June of 1963?

Mr. ROWLAND. Worked in Oregon at three different jobs. Exchange Lumber Co. as a shipping clerk, Meier Frank Co. as a clothes salesman, and part time at West Foods. The business was mushroom processing. That was during the summer.

Upon my return to Dallas, I worked part time, while doing some postgraduate work, at the Pizza Inn. At present I am working with the P. F. Collier Co.

Mr. SPECTER. What sort of work are you doing with P. F. Collier?

Mr. ROWLAND. That is promotional advertising.

Mr. SPECTER. What college are you attending, if any, at the present time?

Mr. ROWLAND. None at the present.

Mr. SPECTER. What postgraduate work had you been doing that you just mentioned?

Mr. ROWLAND. Studies in math and science.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you studying these courses?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was a high school in Dallas as advanced courses.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been accepted in any college?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; several. Texas A. & M., Rice, SMU, Arlington.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have plans to attend one of those colleges?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Which one do you plan to enter?

Mr. ROWLAND. Preferably Rice.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an entry date set?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I am trying for a scholarship for it.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been in the military service?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I haven't.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the general condition of your health.

Mr. ROWLAND. Good.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the condition of your eyesight?

Mr. ROWLAND. Very good.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you wear glasses at any time?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. SPECTER. When, most recently, have you had an eye test, if at all?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 7 months ago.

Mr. SPECTER. And you know the results of that test?

Mr. ROWLAND. Very good vision.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what classification the doctor placed on it?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't remember it.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect if it was 20-20?

Mr. ROWLAND. He said it was much better than that.

Mr. SPECTER. And what doctor examined your eyes?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was the firm of doctors Finn and Finn.

Mr. SPECTER. F-i-n-n and F-i-n-n?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where are they located?

Mr. ROWLAND. The Fidelity Union Life Building in Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long ago was that examination?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 6 months.

Mr. SPECTER. Going to the day of November 22, 1963, how were you occupied at that time, Mr. Rowland?

Mr. ROWLAND. I was attending classes in school part of the day, working part time as a pizzamaker in Pizza Inn.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you regularly scheduled classes on the morning of November 22, 1963?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. I had classes up until 11. I just had two classes on Friday.

Mr. SPECTER. And what school were you attending at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. W. H. Adamson High.

Mr. SPECTER. How far is that from the intersection of Houston and Elm Streets in Dallas, approximately?

Mr. ROWLAND. It must have been about a mile and a half.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe for the Commission what you did on that morning, in a general way, up until approximately noon time?

Mr. ROWLAND. I went to my classes. My wife got out of school early. We went to town. I had to go to work at 4, so we were going downtown to do some shopping. We went early so we could see the President's motorcade.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive in town?

Mr. ROWLAND. We rode a bus from the school. We got to town approximately a quarter to 12.

Mr. SPECTER. What school was your wife attending at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. The same: Adamson.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did her classes end?

Mr. ROWLAND. She got out at 11 also.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do from the time you arrived in town at approximately a quarter of 12 for the next 15 minutes?

Mr. ROWLAND. Trying to find a good vantage point. We walked about five or six blocks.

Mr. SPECTER. From where did you walk?

Mr. ROWLAND. We got off at the junction, at the intersection of Main and Houston, walked up toward Ervay, about four blocks, I would say up to Akard. We walked from Houston to Akard on Main, and then we walked back down Commerce and then over to the sheriffs or the county courthouse, there was a lesser crowd there.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the reason you selected the spot you ultimately picked to watch the parade?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, there was no one in front of us, no one around that area.

Mr. SPECTER. I am going to show you a photograph, Mr. Rowland, which has already been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 347 and first ask you if you can identify what scene this represents.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I can.

Mr. SPECTER. What scene is that?

Mr. ROWLAND. This is the triple underpass, this is the scene where the President was assassinated.

Mr. SPECTER. What is this plaza called in Dallas?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know exactly. It is just known as the triple underpass.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it known as Dealey Plaza to your knowledge?

Mr. ROWLAND. I have never heard it called that.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you point with your finger for me at the spot where you were standing as best you can recollect it?

Mr. ROWLAND. We were about in this area on this sidewalk of this building. I say approximately two-thirds of the distance between here and here in this direction.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

I have a substitute photograph for you to mark. I am now showing you an identical scene on a photograph which has been heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. 354. Will you mark with an arrow as closely as possible to the point where you were standing?

Mr. ROWLAND. There is an elevator shaft below this second window on that building that comes through a sidewalk. I was about 5 feet to the left of it, about the third window or right here in this area.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark that a little more heavily, please?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. What time were you so positioned?

Mr. ROWLAND. We got there about 5 after 12.

Mr. SPECTER. Did your position move at any time during the course of the next half hour?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. We did move to this corner, there were too many people on this corner.

Mr. SPECTER. You are indicating back to the corner of Houston and Main?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. Houston and Main there were too many crowds so we came back to this street here, Commerce is that right; no, Elm and Main. We came back to Elm and Main and figured it wouldn't be a very good vantage point because of the crowd there so we went back to where we were.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you standing at the time the President's motorcade passed by you?

Mr. ROWLAND. At that position.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. The position you have marked with a "V," inverted "V."

Will you mark with the letter "A" the point to which you had moved when you described it as being at Commerce which you corrected to Elm and Houston.

Mr. ROWLAND. It was this corner.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time did you move to the position you have marked "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 10 after 12.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay at position "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Momentarily, just long enough to look, maybe a minute.

Mr. SPECTER. To look at what?

Mr. ROWLAND. To look at the position itself. There was too much of a crowd in that area. When the President would come by they would be pushing or rushing in that area and it would be too crowded for us.

Mr. SPECTER. At that point you did what?

Mr. ROWLAND. Then we went back to where we were.

Mr. SPECTER. To position "V"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, and we stayed there for a minute or so, walked to the corner of Main and Houston.

Mr. SPECTER. Mark Main and Houston with the letter "B," if you would, where you moved next.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. ROWLAND. Stayed there momentarily, less than a minute. There was quite a crowd there and we went back to where we were, our original position.

Mr. SPECTER. To position "V"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What time would you say you got back to your position "V"?