Chapter XVII: Part 17

Mr. FRAZIER. Went down--you know, I told you I had two routes; that day I went down, you know, Fifth Street runs into Sixth after you cross the Storey Road there, so I just went on down Sixth until I come to O'Connor, and then took a left on O'Connor and it takes you right on out to Stemmons and from there I went right on into Stemmons and come up Commerce, and you go up Commerce, there until you hit Record Street, that is one block over from Houston and then I went down until I hit McKinney and then it goes right down to the warehouse and then take a left and you go right around to the parking lot.

Mr. BALL. You didn't stop any place on your way in?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Park in the parking lot?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Where did you park in the parking lot this time?

Mr. FRAZIER. I parked in the same place the picture I showed you there.

Mr. BALL. As shown in the picture. That is Exhibit No. 361.

Anything else said about curtain rods?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; there wasn't.

Mr. BALL. Anything else said about the package?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; there wasn't.

Mr. BALL. Who got out of the car first?

Mr. FRAZIER. He did.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember any conversation on the way in about anything?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I asked him did he have fun playing with them babies and he chuckled and said he did. And so that morning I said just a few minutes after we started you know it was a cloudy day and it started misting and rain and by the time we got out on the Freeway I said, you know, how those trucks throw that grime on the windshield and finally it was getting pretty thick on there with spots of rain, and I turned on the windshield wiper and you know how grime spatters your windshield and I said, "I wish it would rain or just quit altogether, I wish it would do something to clear off the windshield," and the drops started getting larger so eventually it cleaned off the windshield and by the time I got down to Dallas there I just turned off the windshield.

Just a few clouds, and rained a little bit to get out of it. But other than that just saying the weather was messy, that is about all.

Mr. BALL. Was it foggy?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; not in too particular. I say in other words, just old cloudy, dull looking day and like I say fine mist of rain and after we got a little bit further we got into larger drops.

Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about the President coming to Dallas that day?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it wasn't.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything about that the day before?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever have any conversation with him with reference to the President's visit to Texas?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you got to the parking lot who got out of the car first?

Mr. FRAZIER. He did.

Mr. BALL. You didn't get out immediately then?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I was sitting there, say, looked at my watch and somewhere around 7 or 8 minutes until and I saw we had a few minutes and I sat there, and as I say you can see the Freeway, Stemmons Freeway, from the warehouse and also the trains coming back and forth and I was sitting there.

What I was doing--glanced up and watching cars for a minute but I was letting my engine run and getting to charge up my battery, because when you stop and start you have to charge up your battery.

Mr. BALL. Did you have your lunch beside you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice whether or not Lee had a package that looked like a lunch package that morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. You know like I told you earlier. I say, he didn't take his lunch because I remember right when I got in the car I asked him where was his lunch and he said he was going to buy his lunch that day.

Mr. BALL. He told you that that day, did he?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. That is right. So, I assumed he was going to buy it, you know, from that catering service man like a lot of the boys do. They don't bring their lunch but they go out and buy their lunch there.

Mr. BALL. What did he do about the package in the back seat when he got out of the car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Like I say, I was watching the gages and watched the car for a few minutes before I cut it off.

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRAZIER. He got out of the car and he was wearing the jacket that has the big sleeves in them and he put the package that he had, you know, that he told me was curtain rods up under his arm, you know, and so he walked down behind the car and standing over there at the end of the cyclone fence waiting for me to get out of the car, and so quick as I cut the engine off and started out of the car, shut the door just as I was starting out just like getting out of the car, he started walking off and so I followed him in.

So, eventually there he kept getting a little further ahead of me and I noticed we had plenty of time to get there because it is not too far from the Depository and usually I walk around and watch them switching the trains because you have to watch where you are going if you have to cross the tracks.

One day you go across one track and maybe there would be some cars sitting there and there would be another diesel coming there, so you have to watch when you cross the tracks, I just walked along and I just like to watch them switch the cars, so eventually he kept getting a little further ahead of me and by that time we got down there pretty close to the Depository Building there, I say, he would be as much as, I would say, roughly 50 feet in front of me but I didn't try to catch up with him because I knew I had plenty of time so I just took my time walking up there.

Mr. BALL. Did you usually walk up there together.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. BALL. Is this the first time that he had ever walked ahead of you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BALL. You say he had the package under his arm when you saw him?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You mean one end of it under the armpit?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he had it up just like you stick it right under your arm like that.

Mr. BALL. And he had the lower part----

Mr. FRAZIER. The other part with his right hand.

Mr. BALL. Right hand?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. He carried it then parallel to his body?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, straight up and down.

Representative FORD. Under his right arm?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did it look to you as if there was something heavy in the package?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I will be frank with you, I didn't pay much attention to the package because like I say before and after he told me that it was curtain rods and I didn't pay any attention to it, and he never had lied to me before so I never did have any reason to doubt his word.

Mr. BALL. Did it appear to you there was some, more than just paper he was carrying, some kind of a weight he was carrying?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, yes, sir; I say, because one reason I know that because I worked in a department store before and I had uncrated curtain rods when they come in, and I know if you have seen when they come straight from the factory you know how they can bundle them up and put them in there pretty compact, so he told me it was curtain rods so I didn't think any more about the package whatsoever.

Mr. BALL. Well, from the way he carried it, the way he walked, did it appear he was carrying something that had more than the weight of a paper?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, you know like I say, I didn't pay much attention to the package other than I knew he had it under his arm and I didn't pay too much attention the way he was walking because I was walking along there looking at the railroad cars and watching the men on the diesel switch them cars and I didn't pay too much attention on how he carried the package at all.

Mr. BALL. I will show you this picture again, this map, which is the Commission's Exhibit No. 361, and would you show us the way he walked, the course he walked from the place your car was parked up to the Texas School Book Depository. You come around here and here is a black pen. Show us the course that he walked.

Mr. FRAZIER. Like I say, I had that car parked.

Mr. BALL. Put an "X" there which will represent your car.

Mr. FRAZIER. All right (indicating).

Mr. BALL. That is where your car was parked?

Mr. FRAZIER. I would say roughly like in there, you know like the picture shows right in there.

Mr. BALL. Now, draw a line to show the way that he walked.

Mr. FRAZIER. O.K.

Mr. BALL. The direction he walked.

Mr. FRAZIER. All right.

Like I say, he was standing right about there when I got out of the car so naturally he started off walking so we just come on right on just like you would come across these tracks right here, and he was coming right on along the fence like that. Just coming right on, right here now is the School Book Depository, right, so he was coming right on down this fence there and he was coming across these tracks, and standing right in here somewhere at the door.

Mr. BALL. Door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. At the end of that put a "XY", so "X" to "XY" will represent the course he walked. It shows "XY".

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Then "X" to "XY" is the course he took, is that right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you go in the same door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. You walked the same direction?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Now when he went in the door you were about 50 feet behind him?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. The last time I saw him I was right in this area coming across these railroad tracks and I just happened to glance up and see him going through the door there and shut the door.

Mr. BALL. Let's see, the last time you saw him he was at the door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Which is at "XY" and you were crossing the railroad tracks on Pacific Avenue?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I say this is Houston.

Mr. BALL. Pacific runs east and west?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Put a mark there, put a "Z" there as to your location.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right in there.

Mr. BALL. That is about where you were, a "Z" when he entered the door at "XY"?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Now, you went on in the Building, did you, afterwards?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. I went on in.

Mr. BALL. Well, the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository is fairly clear, isn't it, it is clear of partitions?

Mr. FRAZIER. Pretty well. I will say we have bins after you get so far.

Mr. BALL. Toward the middle of the floor you have bins?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee as you walked in the door?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Here is Commission 362 which we will show you. I will put it up high so everyone can see it. There is a picture in the lower left corner which is marked "Exterior View of Entrance Door from Houston Street Loading Dock."

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Is that the door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. That is the door that Lee entered?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right.

Mr. BALL. And that is also the door that you entered, is that correct?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And over to the right here is the interior view of entrance door.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. That is the same door, isn't it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Now, this door, you see right there is that door right there.

Mr. BALL. In other words, the door in the lower left-hand corner is the outside door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And as you walk through--and this is the door, the outside door, is shown in the picture on the lower right-hand corner?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, right there, that is this same door you are looking at over here.

Mr. BALL. Then there is an interior door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Leading into the interior that is also shown there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. That is sort of, what is it--a little corridor that you walk through?

Mr. FRAZIER. I say it is just about that distance from here over to that man over there.

Mr. BALL. Let's take a look there.

Mr. FRAZIER. It is called the loading zone there.

Mr. BALL. This map shows certain steps up, doesn't it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Where is the door that you entered or that he entered.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right here.

Mr. BALL. That is the door. Is that covered, is that area covered with a ceiling roof?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. BALL. And this is also walled in, is it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. The railroad track runs along here.

Mr. BALL. After you get into this outside shed how did you get into the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. FRAZIER. Through that door.

Mr. BALL. Through the door there, into the interior door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. How much of the first floor here is clear so that you can see anybody there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Roughly say, let's see, just a few feet back, you know here is the door right here.

Mr. BALL. Whose door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Mr. Shelley's.

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRAZIER. Just a few feet back in here is where the bins start, they run this way.

Mr. BALL. Can you mark in this where the bins start, the place?

Mr. FRAZIER. Here.

Mr. BALL. Just draw a line across, you don't need to draw in the bins but just where the bins start and we we will know it is the area.

Mr. FRAZIER. Somewhere right in here.

Mr. BALL. Draw the line clear across.

We will mark the line "A" on one side and "B" on the other so that we can refer to it.

Now, the area between, all the area shown in here from entrance to line "AB", is clear, is it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Now, the line from "AB" to the Elm Street side there are bins, are they?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And are those bins man high?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. 6, 7 feet?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Like I say these bins, we have two or three that run across this way, like I have this line drawn, and they have broken spaces, and you can see a man on the other side of these bins because they are not sealed up in the back.

In other words, you can put books in, say, from this side and go on the other side and have another. Anyway, we have more like these window here.

Mr. BALL. The windows on Elm Street?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. We have some bins running this way, over here, several bins, two or three over here, and two or three over here.

Mr. BALL. Is this the only entrance to the first floor of the Building, the one you have shown us?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir, it is not.

Mr. BALL. What other entrance is there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right here is the main entrance.

Mr. BALL. The main entrance?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, coming on through here.

Mr. BALL. There are two entrances. There is a main entrance in the front of the Building or the Elm Street entrance, and then there is the door through which you entered the first floor, is that right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, then we have another.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. FRAZIER. Out over here, let's see if I can find it, where the garage where we have the truck. Let's see.

Mr. BALL. There is an overhead door here.

Mr. FRAZIER. I see, right through here now, I see right through this door here we come out right here and we come out in this area right in here where we have another dock right out in this area right here, in that area there.

Mr. BALL. That would be----

Mr. FRAZIER. That would be one, two, three. From this loading, like I say, where we keep the truck.

Mr. BALL. Is this overhead door usually covered, usually down closed, rather?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I say we keep it closed, and we have it here back in cold weather and we kept it closed and like I say when you go out there and get into the truck like you are going to drive the truck.

Mr. BALL. Mark an arrow that you say is the entrance or exit, mark an arrow going out.

Mr. FRAZIER. Going out.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Now, this day did you see Lee Oswald the rest of the morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I saw him back and forth, you know, that morning walking around, filling books and so forth, filling orders, had invoices filling orders.

Mr. BALL. When you came in that morning to go to work where did you go first?

Mr. FRAZIER. I went like I did every morning, I went down in the basement there and hung up my coat and put up my lunch.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald down there?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Then you went to work?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. How did you get to the basement?

Mr. FRAZIER. Went down through the, now over there where they have--are you familiar with the Depository Building?

Mr. BALL. Only through the map.

Mr. FRAZIER. We have the----

Mr. BALL. There is the map of the first floor. Does it show the steps leading down to the basement?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. You see the one there where you have the arrow that is one entrance to the basement and that is the entrance I used the biggest part of the time, that is the one I go down.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald there?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. During the morning you say you saw Oswald around filling orders?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Were you on the sixth floor any that morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. One time just a few seconds. I said to Mr. Shelley we had some book returns. They had sent back and he told me to count the books and make sure they were all there and put them in the space and so I took the elevator and loaded them on with a two-wheeler and so I know where they went, and I went to the shelf off the elevator and put them on the shelf and turned around and went right on down.

Mr. BALL. Were they doing some work there that day?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they were.

Representative FORD. What time was that?

Mr. FRAZIER. When I went to put up the stock?

Representative FORD. Yes. On the sixth floor.

Mr. FRAZIER. That was sometime between 8 and 10 o'clock. I say it was the early part of the morning.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you notice they were doing up there?

Mr. FRAZIER. As well as I remember they were moving stock, I believe putting up some stock, straightening up the stock.

Mr. BALL. Any work done on the floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. I don't remember if they were working on the floor or not. They may have because upon the fifth floor I know we have done the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember the names of any workmen you saw on the sixth floor that morning you were there?

Mr. FRAZIER. I believe Billy was up there, Billy Lovelady, but so far as I can say I went and put books on the shelf and turned around and walked back and glanced up when I was coming back, I didn't stay any length of time because when we are pretty busy, some fill out orders and some doing something else and if you have a lot of orders to fill you haven't got a lot of time to sit around and be talking.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald on the sixth floor any time that morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. I didn't because like I say that was the only time I went up there at all that day and I was just up there for a few seconds.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him any that morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. I don't believe I did much unless he asked me something about a book like I told you, and I was always willing to help anybody I can.

Mr. BALL. Now, you knew that the President was going to pass that building sometime that morning, didn't you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I heard he would.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to some of the men around there about it?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to Oswald about that?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. What time did you knock off for lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. 12.

Mr. BALL. Did you eat your lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; not right then I didn't. I say, you know, he was supposed to come by during our lunch hour so you don't get very many chances to see the President of the United States and being an old Texas boy, and [he] never having been down to Texas very much I went out there to see him and just like everybody else was, I was standing on the steps there and watched for the parade to come by and so I did and I stood there until he come by.

Mr. BALL. You went out there after you quit work?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, for lunch.

Mr. BALL. About 12 o'clock?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And you hadn't eaten your lunch up to that time?

Mr. FRAZIER. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you go out there with somebody?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Who did you go out there with?

Mr. FRAZIER. I stayed around there pretty close to Mr. Shelley and this boy Billy Lovelady and just standing there, people talking and just talking about how pretty a day it turned out to be, because I told you earlier it was an old cloudy and misty day and then it didn't look like it was going to be a pretty day at all.

Mr. BALL. And it turned out to be a good day?

Mr. FRAZIER. Pretty sunshiny day.

Mr. BALL. Warm?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was pretty warm.

Mr. BALL. Then let's see, there was Billy Lovelady and you were there.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Anybody else you can remember?

Mr. FRAZIER. There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name.

Mr. BALL. Were you near the steps?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step down from the top there.

Mr. BALL. One step down from the top of the steps?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; standing there by the rail.

Mr. BALL. By steps we are talking about the steps of the entrance to the Building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Shown in this picture?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Which is Commission's Exhibit No. 362. Can you come over here and show us about where you were standing?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Like I told you this was an entrance right here.

Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. FRAZIER. We have a bar rail running about half way up here. This was the first step and I was standing right around there.

Mr. BALL. Put a mark there. Your name is Frazier, put an "F" there for Frazier.

Mr. FRAZIER. O.K.

Mr. BALL. In the picture that would show you about there, would it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; you can see, just see, the top, about the top rail there, I was standing right in there.

Mr. BALL. Right in there?

Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I say, shadow from the roof there knocked the sun from out our eyes, you wouldn't have any glare in the eyes standing there.

Mr. BALL. There was a roof over your head, was there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you stand there for 30 minutes or--tell us how long you stayed there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I stood there until the parade come by.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President go by?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, just right after he went by he hadn't hardly got by, I heard a sound and if you have ever been around motorcycles you know how they backfire, and so I thought one of them motorcycles backfired because right before his car came down, now there were several of these motorcycle policemen, and they took off down toward the underpass down there, and so I thought, you know, that one of them motorcycles backfired, but it wasn't just a few seconds that, you know, I heard two more of the same type of, you know, sounds, and by that time people was running everywhere, and falling down and screaming, and naturally then I knew something was wrong, and so I come to the conclusion somebody else, somebody was shooting at somebody and I figured it was him.

Mr. BALL. You figured it was who?

Mr. FRAZIER. I figured it was somebody shooting at President Kennedy because people were running and hollering so I just stood still. I have always been taught when something like that happened or anywhere as far as that it is always best to stand still because if you run that makes you look guilty sure enough.

Mr. BALL. Now, then, did you have any impression at that time as to the direction from which the sound came?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, to be frank with you I thought it come from down there, you know, where that underpass is. There is a series, quite a few number, of them railroad tracks running together and from where I was standing it sounded like it was coming from down the railroad tracks there.

Mr. BALL. Were you able to see the President, could you still see the President's car when you heard the first sound?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I couldn't. From there, you know, people were standing out there on the curb, you see, and you know it drops, you know the ground drops, off there as you go down toward that underpass and I couldn't see any of it because people were standing up there in my way, but however, when he did turn that corner there, there wasn't anybody standing there in the street and you could see good there, but after you got on past down there you couldn't see anything.

Mr. BALL. You didn't see the President's car at the time you heard the sound?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. But you stood right there, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. Stood right where I was.

Mr. BALL. And Mr. Shelley was still standing there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And also Billy Lovelady?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The three of you didn't go any place?

Mr. FRAZIER. I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there?

Mr. FRAZIER. You mean somebody other that didn't work there?

Mr. BALL. A police officer.

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we started back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.

Mr. BALL. Then you went back into the Building, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything about what had happened, did you hear anybody say anything about the President had been shot?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; right before I went back, some girl who had walked down a little bit further where I was standing on the steps, and somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who it was who told you that?

Mr. FRAZIER. Sir?

Mr. BALL. Do you know who the girl was who told you that?

Mr. FRAZIER. She didn't tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people.

Mr. BALL. Then you went back into the Building, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And police officers came in there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I would say by the time, you know some of us went back in, and it wasn't just a few minutes, I say there were several.

Mr. BALL. Did you stay on the first floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, stayed on the first floor there for a few minutes and I hadn't eaten my lunch so I had my lunch down there in the basement and I went down there to get my lunch and eat it and I walked back up on the first floor there.

Mr. BALL. When you came back into the Building, you came in the front door, didn't you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down to the basement immediately or did you stand around on the first floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I stood around for several minutes there, you know, and then, you know, eventually the ones who hadn't eaten their lunch, some of them had taken their lunch outside.

Mr. BALL. Did other people go downstairs with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.

Mr. BALL. You went down alone, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you go at any time in the back end of the Building back near the door to the loading dock?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never did.

Mr. BALL. Perhaps I had better ask you to point out on the map here where you were. Come over here, please.

Mr. FRAZIER. O.K.

Mr. BALL. You came in back into the Building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Tell us where you went and what you did?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, you know like I said I come back through here [indicating on Commission Exhibit No. 362, diagram of first floor].

Mr. BALL. By "coming back through here," you mean you came down the hallway and into the entrance into the first floor warehouse?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, and you come by Mr. Shelley's office, that is his counter right here, after you get in, you get off here, that is his office, anyway, right out, I come out around here, you know where several of the people walked around here.

Mr. BALL. That is in the bin area?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; the bins don't start automatically right up in here. I say, there is a little bit more or less, like more or less a hall through here, but anyway, you know, I say, you have two or three bins.

Mr. BALL. Through here you mean there is sort of a hall after you enter into the warehouse?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Right.

Mr. FRAZIER. From it, after you come past this counter you have several rows of bins coming this way, but, I say, right after you get past, say, this last bin right here running that way, right out this general area right here you have a telephone and everything out in here.

Mr. BALL. Well, you indicated that everything that would be beyond this line, the bin lines, would be clear on the first floor.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, beyond here.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever go into that area where it was clear before you went downstairs?

From the time you came back into the room, did you go down into this area which was clear before you went downstairs?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't go in here. I was right over right close to Mr. Shelley's office right around here and sit around and talked with some guys around there.

Mr. BALL. You are indicating around Mr. Shelley's office?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; pretty close right there, like I say more or less right out over in here we have a----

Mr. BALL. Put a mark there.

Mr. FRAZIER. Let's see----

Mr. BALL. Put a circle to show the general area where you and the rest of them stood around and talked.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right in there is right around near the telephone and we were just right around in there.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. FRAZIER. We left, you know, after we stood and talked with some guys there, some of them had eaten and some of them didn't, some of them had sandwiches in their hands, so naturally I felt like eating and I walked around the bin and walked down the steps there.

Mr. BALL. Got your lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Come back up?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't come back up. I was sitting eating my lunch. I looked at my watch and didn't have but 10 minutes, so I naturally ate faster than normal, so I was eating a couple of sandwiches, and eat an apple or something and come right back up and the guys, the people who worked there, standing around on the first floor, some of them eating their lunches and others merely talking.

Mr. BALL. You never went back to work?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; we didn't. I didn't work any more that day.

Mr. BALL. You stayed there on the job until you were told to go home?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time did they tell you to go home?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was between 1 and 2 there sometime, roughly, I don't know what time it was.

Mr. BALL. Had the police officers come in there and talked to you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they come in and talked to all of us. They asked us to show our proper identification, and then they had us to write our name down and who to get in touch with if they wanted to see us.

Mr. BALL. Did they ask you where you had been at the time the President passed?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they had. I told them I was out on the steps there.

Mr. BALL. Asked you who you were with?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I told them and naturally Mr. Shelley and Billy vouched for me and so they didn't think anything about it.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anybody around there asking for Lee Oswald?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. At any time before you went home, did you hear anybody ask for Lee?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe they did, because they, you know, like one man showed us, we had to give proper identification and after we passed him he told us to walk on then to the next man, and we, you know, put down proper information where he could be found if they wanted to see you and talk to you any more, and then we went on up to a little bit more to the front entrance more toward Mr. Shelley's office there with another man and stood there for a little while and told us all that was there could go ahead and go home.

Mr. BALL. Then you went on home?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Representative FORD. Did all this occur after you had finished your lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it did.

Representative FORD. Did it ever occur to you at any time following the shooting there was something connecting the shooting with Lee Oswald and the package?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say not particularly not at that time, I didn't think anything about it because, to be frank with you, some were over here, one or two would be over here talking and just strung out here, on the first floor and I didn't think anything about it. I see some of the guys, they go out for lunch and they come back 12:45 so I didn't know whether he had went out to lunch or not. Some of them do every week.

Representative FORD. Did any of the policemen interfere with your efforts to go into the Building and eventually down into the basement where you had your lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.

Mr. BALL. Before you left, did you look for Oswald to see about taking him home?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; I didn't, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was there some reason why you didn't?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did. Because like I told you, he was going home to get the curtain rods and I asked him at the time, the same time, it would be about that, would he be going home with me Friday afternoon like he had been doing, he said no. So naturally when they let us go I took on off because I thought maybe they had already dismissed him and he went on home.

Mr. BALL. When you talked to him on Thursday and he told you he wouldn't be going home on Friday, did he tell you what he was going to do, why he wasn't going to go home?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him again on Friday morning as to whether or not he had changed his mind? Did you ask him whether or not you could pick him up at the end of the day?

Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, Mr. Ball, I am not sure.

Mr. BALL. Whether you did or not.

Did anybody tell you that Lee Oswald was missing before you went home?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.

Representative FORD. Could you describe for the Commission where you went on the sixth floor that morning in relationship to the overall picture of the sixth floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I could.

Representative FORD. Would you do so, please?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Do you have a piece of paper I can draw? [Witness draws diagram on piece of paper.]

Let's see, right here is your two elevator shafts we have. That morning I used this one over here.

Representative FORD. Would you mark Houston, Elm and the other streets?

Mr. FRAZIER. This is Houston, this is Elm right out here. Anyway, like I said, I won't draw these buildings. I have these two elevator shafts here. Quickly you come off these elevator shafts right here, we have skids with books on them, and you see right on those skids you would have some shelves right about like this and so I merely walked over to the elevator with the two-wheeler we use on the dock and walked somewhere say maybe halfway, not quite halfway, there and put up some books, put them down on the floor there, on the floor level and so I just turned around and come back to the elevator and come on down, and went about my business. He had me putting up some books there on the shelves.

Representative FORD. From this point here could you see the windows or the area at the corner of Houston and Elm in the Building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; you could. I say you could look down and see this area back over here.

Representative FORD. Did you look over there?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Right on down there, I knew where the books went so normally I didn't have to look around. I say, I was going to get through, if you are not familiar with the books and so forth it would take you a little longer to find and put them up. But if you know where they go you can put them up very quickly.

So I knew this book went in the shelf because this book we don't handle very many of them and that is where I put books you don't handle very many, put them in the shelf.

So I put the books in the shelf and turned around and put them in the elevator and come on down.

Mr. BALL. Can I have this marked as Commission Exhibit 368, the diagram just drawn by the witness to illustrate his work on the sixth floor?

The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 368, for identification.)

Mr. BALL. I have here Commission's 163, a gray blue jacket. Do you recognize this jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Lee Oswald wear this jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe I have.

Mr. BALL. Commission Exhibit No. 162, which can be described for the record as a gray jacket with zipper, have you seen Lee Oswald wear this jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I haven't.

Mr. BALL. I have here Commission 150, which is described as sort of a rust brown shirt. Have you ever seen Lee Oswald wear this shirt? It has a hole in the sleeve near the elbow.

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe I have because most time I noticed when Lee had it, I say he put off his shirt and just wear a T-shirt the biggest part of the time so really what shirt he wore that day I really didn't see it or didn't pay enough attention to it whether he did have a shirt on.

Mr. BALL. On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is, he had a jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What color was the jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.

Mr. BALL. Did it have a zipper on it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was one of the zipper types.

Mr. BALL. It isn't one of these two zipper jackets we have shown?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what kind of trousers he had on, what color?

Mr. FRAZIER. Not that day, I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. You wouldn't remember that day?

Mr. FRAZIER. I had seen him wear some gray ones before.

Mr. BALL. Here is Commission's Exhibit No. 157 which are gray trousers. Had you ever seen him wear these?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; to be frank with you, I had seen something more or less of that order, that type of material, but so far as that, being sure that, was his pants or some of his clothes, I couldn't be sure.

Mr. BALL. Here is Commission No. 156 which is a pair of gray trousers. Did you ever see him wear trousers of that type?

Mr. FRAZIER. Not that I know of.

Mr. BALL. You are not able to tell us then anything or are you able to tell us, describe any of the clothing he had on that day, except this gray jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. That is the only thing you can remember?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. I have here a paper sack which is Commission's Exhibit 364.

That gray jacket you mentioned, did it have any design in it?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was it light or dark gray?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was light gray.

Mr. BALL. You mentioned it was woolen.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Long sleeves?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Buttoned sleeves at the wrist, or do you remember?

Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I didn't notice that much about the jacket, but I had seen him wear that gray woolen jacket before.

Mr. BALL. You say it had a zipper on it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now we have over here this exhibit for identification which is 364 which is a paper sack made out of tape, sort of a home made affair. Will you take a look at this. Does this appear to be anything like the color of the sack you saw on the back seat?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I would say it was, it was more a color like this.

Mr. BALL. It was more like this color, correct?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did it have tape on it or did you notice it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, like I say, I didn't notice that much about it as I didn't see it very much.

Mr. BALL. Will you take a look at it as to the length. Does it appear to be about the same length?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. We will just use this. Was one end of the sack turned over, folded over? Do you remember that?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, you know, like I was saying, when I glanced at it, but I say from what I saw I didn't see very much of it, I say the bag wasn't open or anything like it where you can see the contents. If you was going to say putting--to more or less a person putting in carefully he would throw it in carefully, you put it more toward the back. If he had anything folded up in it I didn't see that.

Mr. BALL. When you saw him get out of the car, when you first saw him when he was out of the car before he started to walk, you noticed he had the package under the arm?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. One end of it was under the armpit and the other he had to hold it in his right hand. Did the package extend beyond the right hand?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. Like I say if you put it under your armpits and put it down normal to the side.

Mr. BALL. But the right hand on, was it on the end or the side of the package?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; he had it cupped in his hand.

Mr. BALL. Cupped in his hand?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Take a look at this paper bag which is Commission Exhibit 364 for identification, with reference to the width.

Was the bag about that width or a different width?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well. I would say it appears to me it would be pretty close but it might be just a little bit too wide. I think it is, because you know yourself you would have to have a big hand with that size but like I say he had this cupped in his hand because I remember glancing at him when he was a walking up ahead of me.

Mr. BALL. This is another bag here which has been marked Commission's Exhibit 142. But I don't see the stamp on it. This is FBI No. 10. This was shown to you before, wasn't it, in Dallas?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. BALL. You were asked if you had seen this before, weren't you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BALL. When you first saw it, you felt that the bag you saw was of a different color, didn't you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, and I say they told me this one had been treated in the lab.

Mr. BALL. If you will note there is a part of this bag which has not been treated.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. So I will show you this part of this exhibit that hasn't been treated, and tell me whether or not the paper, the color of the paper that has not been treated, is or is not similar to the color of the paper on the bag you saw on the back seat of your car that morning.

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, more like I say the color, the color I saw would be more like it but I imagine if this hadn't been run through that process that this color here that you unwrapped would be more closer to this. This seems to have a little bit different color to me.

Mr. BALL. I didn't get the answer because of the--let's refer to this bag, that is the colored bag.

Mr. FRAZIER. Okay, sir.

Mr. BALL. And the bag that is not colored, and the other is just a bag.

Mr. FRAZIER. Okay, sir.

Mr. BALL. We are talking about the colored bag, the one that has changed its color. There is a part of the colored bag that hasn't changed color, isn't it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. That is the part I want to call your attention to.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. The color of this bag, the colored bag, has not been treated. Take a look at it. Is that similar to the color of the bag you saw in the back seat of your car that morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. It would be, surely it could have been, and it couldn't have been. Like I say, see, you know this color, either one of these colors, is very similar to the type of paper that you can get out of a store or anything like that, and so I say it could have been and then it couldn't have been.

Mr. BALL. Do you mean by that that it is similar to the color?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And do you have a definite memory of the color of the bag you saw on the back seat of your car so that you can distinguish between one color and another?

Mr. FRAZIER. I believe it would be more on this basis here.

Mr. BALL. You say it would be more on the color of bag No. 364, is that right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. You will notice that this bag which is the colored bag, FBI Exhibit No. 10, is folded over. Was it folded over when you saw it the first time, folded over to the end?

Mr. FRAZIER. I will say I am not sure about that, whether it was folded over or not, because, like I say, I didn't pay that much attention to it.

Mr. BALL. This is Commission Exhibit No. 142.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the dark bag?

Mr. BALL. The dark bag is Commission Exhibit No. 142.

When you were shown this bag, do you recall whether or not you told the officers who showed you the bag--did you tell them whether you thought it was or was not about the same length as the bag you saw on the back seat?

Mr. FRAZIER. I told them that as far as the length there, I told them that was entirely too long.

Mr. BALL. What about the width?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, like I say now, now I couldn't see much of the bag from him walking in front of me. Now he could have had some of it sticking out in front of his hands because I didn't see it from the front. The only time I did see it was from the back, just a little strip running down from your arm and so therefore, like that, I say, I know that the bag wouldn't be that long.

So far as being that wide like I say I couldn't be sure.

Mr. BALL. It could have been that wide?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.