Chapter XIV: Part 14

Mr. SPECTER. Eighteen lines down.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I see it. It wasn't a parade-rest position. It was a port-arms position. I never noticed that in there before. There were--actually, I will say this, I said what I had to say. The FBI agent reworded it, and she took it down.

Now this happened; it wasn't my words verbatim, it was reworded.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever use the words "parade-rest" position?

Mr. ROWLAND. Not to my recollection.

Mr. SPECTER. So it is just an error in transcription which you did not notice when you signed it.

(At this point, Chief Justice Warren entered the hearing room.)

Is there any other aspect of the affidavit which you gave, which you have just observed, which is at variance with your current recollection of what you saw and heard on that date?

Mr. ROWLAND. Here it states we were at the west entrance of the sheriff's office, that is just a general approximation, we were 25 feet from there, in fact.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other portions of it which vary from your current recollection?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember saying definitely that he was back about 15 feet. In fact, I think I said, as I said now, 3 to 5 feet, because from my point of view if he was back 15 feet I couldn't have even seen him.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other parts of the affidavit which vary from your current recollection?

Mr. ROWLAND. The actual time between the reports I would say now, after having had time to consider the 6 seconds between the first and second report and two between the second and third. It is very fast for a bolt-loading rifle.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether or not the statement is accurate in that you told the police officials at that time that there was a time span of 8 seconds between the first and second shots and a time span of 3 seconds between the second and third shots?

Mr. ROWLAND. I think I did tell them that, yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And with respect to the facts which appear in the statement that you said the man was standing about 15 feet back from the windows, did you actually tell them that when you made the statement, or is that an error of transcription?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't think I said that.

Mr. SPECTER. Now are there any other points where the affidavit is at variance from your current recollection?

Mr. ROWLAND. The time that it states here, we arrived in downtown Dallas at approximately 12:10. Actually we arrived before 12 but we took the position that we have, approximately 12:10, that position "V" on this other Exhibit 354.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other variances between your current recollection and this statement?

Mr. ROWLAND. I do not think so.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell the police officials at the time you made this statement that there was a Negro gentleman in the window on the southwest corner of the Texas School Book Depository Building which you have marked with a circle "A"--pardon me, southeast?

Mr. ROWLAND. At that time, no. However, the next day on Saturday there were a pair of FBI officers, agents out at my home, and they took another handwritten statement from me which I signed again, and this was basically the same. At that time I told them I did see the Negro man there and they told me it didn't have any bearing or such on the case right then. In fact, they just the same as told me to forget it now.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Reporter, will you please repeat that last answer for us?

(Answer read.)

Mr. SPECTER. I am now handing you a document which I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 358, which purports to be a reproduction of a statement which was purportedly given by you to the FBI, two agents of that Bureau.

Will you take a look at that and tell us if that is the statement which you gave to the FBI to which you just referred?

Mr. ROWLAND. Again, I have a variance of time and a variance of distance that he was from the window.

Mr. SPECTER. Before you direct your attention to those factors, Mr. Rowland, are you able to tell us whether or not this is the statement which you gave to the FBI?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. My wife was with me when I gave the statement.

Mr. SPECTER. And without looking at the statement which, may the record show, you are not now doing, do you recollect the names of the FBI, don't look there, just tell me if you can recollect without seeing their names on the statement?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I talked to seven different pairs of FBI agents and I don't remember their names.

Mr. SPECTER. Seven different pairs?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, sir; I had--this is only one of the statements. They came to my home or where I worked and took three more besides this one. There were four handwritten statements that I signed.

Mr. SPECTER. Before getting the details on those, tell me in what respect, if any, the statement which we have identified as Commission Exhibit No. 358 differs from what you told the FBI agents at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. I do not think it differs.

Mr. SPECTER. Then that statement accurately reflects what you said at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I am sure it does.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, in what respects, if any, does that statement vary from your current recollection about the facts which are contained therein?

Mr. ROWLAND. The time factor, the time that we arrived in town. Here again it states 12:10. Now this is the time that we arrived at the position that we stayed at, not the time we arrived in town, and the distance the man was back from the window. Here it states 12 to 15 feet. I do not remember saying that although I very well could have. Everything was confusing.

Mr. SPECTER. But what is your current recollection on the distance that the man was back from the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. Three to four, five feet, somewhere in that neighborhood. He wasn't very far. Far enough for the sunlight to hit him and at the angle the sun was that wouldn't be very far.

Mr. SPECTER. Now noticing that the date on that statement is November 24, 1963, does that appear to you to be the date when that statement was taken, or was it taken on the 23d, the day after the assassination?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was Saturday morning, the 24th.

Mr. SPECTER. On what day was the assassination?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was Thursday, wasn't it?

Mr. SPECTER. No; the assassination occurred on Friday.

Mr. ROWLAND. I am sorry, that is right. It is so confused in this.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, was the statement taken the second day after the assassination or the morning of the first day after the assassination?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; it was taken on Saturday morning before I went to work because on Sunday there was another statement taken from me at my job where I was working. This occurred right after Oswald was shot himself.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, are you able to identify that statement which we have marked Exhibit 358, as the statement taken on Saturday, the 23d, as distinguished from the statement taken on Sunday, the 24th of November?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How can you be certain of that, Mr. Rowland?

Mr. ROWLAND. The one on Sunday, this particular one, I do remember the agent used a legal pad. He did have three pages of it handwritten. I made corrections on this in different parts of it. The one on Sunday was not a legal pad. It was a steno pad and it, in fact, covered a page and a half, I think, and it was concerned with mainly could I identify the man that I saw, his description.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, at the time you made the Saturday statement, which you say was transcribed and appears as Exhibit 358, did you at that time tell the interviewing FBI agents about the colored gentleman who you testified was in the window which you marked with an "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ask them at that time to include the information in the statement which they took from you?

Mr. ROWLAND. No. I think I told them about it after the statement, as an afterthought, an afterthought came up, it came into my mind. I also told the agents that took a statement from me on Sunday. They didn't seem very interested, so I just forgot about it for a while.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that information included in the written portion of the statement which was taken from you on Sunday?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, it wasn't. It shouldn't but the agent deleted it though himself, I mean I included it in what I gave.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say deleted it, did he strike it out after putting it in, or did he omit it in the transcription?

Mr. ROWLAND. Omitted it.

Senator COOPER. I think you said a while ago that when you told the FBI agents on Saturday that you had seen this Negro man in the window, that they indicated to you that they weren't interested in it at all. What did they say which gave you that impression?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember exactly what was said. The context was again the agents were trying to find out if I could positively identify the man that I saw. They were concerned mainly with this, and I brought up to them about the Negro man after I had signed the statement, and at that time he just told me that they were just trying to find out about or if anyone could identify the man who was up there. They just didn't seem interested at all. They didn't pursue the point. They didn't take it down in the notation as such.

Mr. SPECTER. It was more of the fact that they didn't pursue it, didn't include it?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Or that they said something which led you to believe they were not interested?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was just the fact they didn't pursue it. I mean, I just mentioned that I saw him in that window. They didn't ask me, you know, if was this at the same time or such. They just didn't seem very interested in that at all.

Mr. WRIGHT. By man who was up there you mean man with the rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. They were interested in the man with the rifle, and finding out if anyone could identify him. The other man was the colored man in the other window.

Representative FORD. A minute ago you indicated that you could see the man in the window with the rifle because of the light conditions, I think you referred to the sun shining in that direction toward the building. Was the sun bright, do you recall that at all?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; the sun was out, somewhat bright. I didn't have any sunglasses on at that time because I had broken them the week before, and I hadn't gotten any new ones. The sun was shining in from what I could tell he was standing where I seen him through the window on my right. This would be the east window of the pair. It appeared as though the sun were shining in through either a window on the other side of the building, on the west side of the building, or possibly the western pair, one of the pair. This sun was--that hit him about from the shoulders down as far as I could see, that is why I was able to tell the rifle was of the type or such that it was.

Representative FORD. As you faced the window, as you faced the building, the sun was shining over which shoulder, to your left or your right shoulder?

Mr. ROWLAND. As I faced the building the sun was shining--well, I would have been facing the building if the building were in this direction more or less this way and the sun would have been shining from this area.

Representative FORD. Over your left shoulder?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; forward.

Representative FORD. That is all.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to identify the man whom you saw in the window with the rifle for the FBI agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they have pictures with them at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. I have seen three pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald, two of them in the paper. They had a morning newspaper was all they had. It wasn't a very good picture, and I couldn't tell. I didn't know, I wasn't going to say because I didn't, I mean. I just couldn't identify him. I wouldn't be--I had already resigned myself not to be given that task, because I couldn't definitely say any one man was that man.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the basis of your concluding, as you put it, that you resigned yourself to that task?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was because I just didn't have a good enough look at his face.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that your conclusion at this moment that you are unable to identify, with precision and certainty, the man whom you saw holding the rifle in the window of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is true.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you believe that you could identify the Negro gentleman in window "A" whom you testified you saw?

Mr. ROWLAND. I would have to say perhaps. I can't say for sure.

Mr. SPECTER. A moment ago you testified that you gave statements to seven different pairs of FBI agents. Have you already testified about three of those occasions, or, stated differently, start at the beginning and tell us, as best you can recollect, what were those occasions, when they occurred, where you were when you had those meetings with the seven different pairs of agents.

Mr. ROWLAND. The first statement I gave was in the sheriff's office on that date.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there two FBI agents present?

Mr. ROWLAND. I think there were.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you recollect their names?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. When was the second occasion?

Mr. ROWLAND. The Saturday morning.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was that statement given?

Mr. ROWLAND. That was in the agent's car in front of my mother-in-law's house.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect the identities of those FBI agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. That is the statement you have identified as being reproduced in Commission Exhibit 358?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, when was the third statement obtained?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was Sunday morning, the following day, November 25.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was that statement obtained?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was at my place of employment at the Pizza Inn.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, Sunday after the assassination would have been the 24th.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is right, I am sorry, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you certain of the day of the week, however?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I am certain of that because I went to work at noon on Sunday and they were there when I got to work, they were waiting on me.

Mr. SPECTER. That is the statement which you described as having been taken on a stenopad?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign that statement?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did. This was in the presence of my wife because she was there.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect the identity of those FBI agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I do not, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When was the fourth statement taken?

Mr. ROWLAND. The fourth was Tuesday night of that week.

Mr. SPECTER. Of the following week?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was that statement taken?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was at my mother-in-law's house, and----

Mr. SPECTER. Was that reduced to writing?

Mr. ROWLAND. That was merely one paragraph. They were concerned with identification of the man that I saw.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell them essentially at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. The description and that I could not positively identify him.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign a statement for them at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of those FBI agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Up to this point were any of the FBI agents the same who had interviewed you and taken statements from you?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All different?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. When did the fifth occasion take place when you were interviewed by the FBI?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was again where I worked. This was, it was not a formal written statement. They just took notes on what I said, had me recount that entire thing to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. SPECTER. When did this occur, the fifth one?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was on the following Friday.

Mr. SPECTER. About what time of the day or night was it?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 8:30 p.m.

Mr. SPECTER. At the Pizza Inn?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; Dallas time.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you recall the identities of those FBI agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Were they the same as any who had ever interviewed you before?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; none of them are the same.

Mr. SPECTER. When was the sixth occasion when you were interviewed by the FBI?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was again on Sunday.

Mr. SPECTER. This would have been November--it would have been December 1st?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember that date but it was----

Mr. SPECTER. The second Sunday after the assassination?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was the sixth interview conducted?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was at the Pizza Inn.

Mr. SPECTER. About what time of the day or night was that?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 1 o'clock. This was again right after I came to work.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the statement taken from you at that time reduced to writing?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was again informal, just taking notes on my statement, had me recount what I had told the other agents.

Mr. SPECTER. What were they interested in specifically at that time if you recall?

Mr. ROWLAND. They just wanted me to recount everything that I could recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of those agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Were they again different agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; they were.

Mr. SPECTER. From all those you had seen before?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. When had you given the seventh statement to the FBI?

Mr. ROWLAND. The last statement I gave I think it was to one FBI agent and a Secret Service Agent.

Mr. SPECTER. When did that occur?

Mr. ROWLAND. That was either Tuesday or Wednesday of the week. I do not remember which.

Mr. SPECTER. On the week following the Sunday when you gave the sixth statement?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the identities of those men?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever seen either before?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I hadn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they reduce your statement to writing?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; they just had me recount everything again.

Mr. SPECTER. In addition to the times you have already stated, have you ever been interviewed by the FBI on any other occasion?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been interviewed by the Secret Service on any other occasion?

Mr. ROWLAND. The afternoon of the 22d and the seventh time was the only two times of the Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. There was a Secret Service agent present in the sheriff's office?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; he was Agent Sorrels.

Mr. SPECTER. When you gave the affidavit which we have identified as Commission Exhibit 357?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. In addition to the times you have mentioned, have you ever been interviewed by any agent or representative of the Federal Government?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any other agent or representative of the State Government of Texas?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, on any of the other occasions, other than those you testified about, did you mention seeing the Negro gentleman in the window which we have circled with the "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, what was the quality of your grades in high school?

Mr. ROWLAND. Well, up until my senior year they were 4.0 straight A's, in my senior year I got a couple of B's.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what your IQ or intelligence quotient is?

Mr. ROWLAND. 147.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know when you were tested for that?

Mr. ROWLAND. In 1963; in May.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, a couple of other questions.

Are you able to give us any other type of a description of the Negro gentleman whom you observed in the window we marked "A" with respect to height, weight, age?

Mr. ROWLAND. He was very thin, an elderly gentleman, bald or practically bald, very thin hair if he wasn't bald. Had on a plaid shirt. I think it was red and green, very bright color, that is why I remember it.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us an estimate as to age?

Mr. ROWLAND. Fifty; possibly 55 or 60.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us an estimate as to height?

Mr. ROWLAND. 5'8", 5'10", in that neighborhood. He was very slender, very thin.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us a more definite description as to complexion?

Mr. ROWLAND. Very dark or fairly dark, not real dark compared to some Negroes, but fairly dark. Seemed like his face was either--I can't recall detail but it was either very wrinkled or marked in some way.

Mr. SPECTER. Shortly after the assassination and before these interviews that you described were completed, Mr. Rowland, had you learned or heard that the shots were supposed to have come out of the window which we have marked with the "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir. I did not know that, in fact until Saturday when I read the paper.

Mr. SPECTER. Which Saturday is that?

Mr. ROWLAND. The following Saturday.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that be the second day, the day after the assassination?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, knowing that, at that time, did you attach any particular significance to the presence of the Negro gentleman, whom you have described, that you saw in window "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is why I brought it to the attention of the FBI agents who interviewed me that day. This was as an afterthought because I did not think of it firsthand. But I did bring it to their attention before they left, and they----

Mr. SPECTER. That was at the interview on the Saturday morning November 23?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you think it of sufficient significance to bring it to the attention of any of the other interviewing FBI agents on the balance of the interviews you have described?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did on the following Sunday to the agents who interviewed me where I worked.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the following Sunday?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, at this time I move for the admission into evidence of the three exhibits which we have shown this witness.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

Mr. SPECTER. Exhibits Nos. 356, 357, and 358. That completes our questioning, Your Honor.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission's Exhibits Nos. 356, 357, and 358 for identification and admitted into evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper, have you any questions?

Senator COOPER. You said earlier that you had been much interested in and pursued studies in sounds, I believe?

Mr. ROWLAND. I have studied quite a bit of electronics, sound. Math and science is what I like.

Senator COOPER. You said you had read books on this subject. Did you ever conduct any experiments yourself?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; in the form of--there is a theory that sound is a basis of a transmitter and a receiver, that you have to have a receiver to have sound. There is a theory that if a tree falls down in the middle of a forest and there is nobody around where they can hear it, there is no sound.

Well, I have conducted experiments on this, and I--it is very interesting, very fascinating, but you can't prove it or you can't disprove it because if you have got a microphone there you have got a receiver.

Senator COOPER. Did you ever conduct any experiments with rifles, firing a rifle in relation to sound?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; in a firing range.

Senator COOPER. Beg pardon?

Mr. ROWLAND. Firing range.

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mr. ROWLAND. I did conduct a few experiments. One of them was firing a bullet over water; you know, we were using a set of wood blocks to fire into, so we had a big vat of water that we were firing over, and we had several different articles and composition floating on the water, trying to measure the effect of the sound wave upon that. Such as this we did conduct.

Senator COOPER. I think you did say that when you heard the first report that you considered it to be a rifle shot?

Mr. ROWLAND. I did, but almost immediately everyone started laughing so I did not give it any further consideration until the second shot, second report.

Senator COOPER. At the time you saw a man standing near a window in the Texas School Book Depository with a rifle, can you state whether there were any, did you know whether or not any police officers were near you?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was an officer about 20 feet to my left.

Senator COOPER. Did you see any others?

Mr. ROWLAND. There were officers all over, that was the closest one. There were four or five on the block across the street from me, two of them being with the boy who had the epileptic fit.

There was also an officer in front of the doors to that building. There were several on the corners. I would say there were 20 uniformed officers right there in that 1-1/2-block area.

Senator COOPER. Could any of the officers that you saw whose position you noted, have seen this window from the place where they were standing?

Mr. ROWLAND. They could have; yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. You don't remember whether any of them were looking up there?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't remember whether they were. No; I don't.

Senator COOPER. Did it occur to you that you should speak to the officer about seeing a man in the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. It has. Do you ever have reoccurring dreams, sir?

Senator COOPER. What?

Mr. ROWLAND. Do you ever have reoccurring dreams?

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mr. ROWLAND. This is a reoccurring dream of mine, sir, all the time, what if I had told someone about it. I knew about it enough in advance and perhaps it could have been prevented. I mean this is something which shakes me up at times.

Senator COOPER. I don't want to disturb you about that but my point was at the time did you--I think you said, though, you thought that he was a--he could have been a--Secret Service man, officer.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is right.

Senator COOPER. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Anything further, Congressman Ford?

Representative FORD. Mr. Rowland, have you ever had occasion to go back to the scene and reconstruct it? Have you ever gone back----

The CHAIRMAN. Supposing we take a few minutes recess.

Mr. ROWLAND. The answer to that question is yes; I do all the time. I pass that area very frequently.

The CHAIRMAN. Any other questions, gentlemen, Mr. Wright?

Mr. WRIGHT. No, Your Honor.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, Mr. Rowland, I want to thank you for coming here and cooperating with the Commission. I know that this is a matter that recalls very sordid thoughts to your mind, and I can see how you would be somewhat distressed about it but you have been very frank and cooperative with us and I appreciate it.

We will take a short recess.

(Short recess.)

TESTIMONY OF JAMES RICHARD WORRELL, JR.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Will you raise your right hand and be sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please.

Mr. Worrell, the purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Arnold Louis Rowland, Amos Lee Evins, yourself, and Robert Jackson, who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask you and the other witnesses for facts concerning your knowledge of the assassination of the President.

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Specter, will you proceed with the examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. WORRELL. James Richard Worrell, Jr.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator, will you preside while I answer a phone call to another member of the Commission?

Mr. SPECTER. What is your address, Mr. Worrell?

Mr. WORRELL. 13510 Winterhaven Drive.

Mr. SPECTER. What city is that?

Mr. WORRELL. In Dallas, it is the Farmers Branch of the suburb of Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you resided in Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. WORRELL. About 12 years.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you live before that?

Mr. WORRELL. 3140 Storey Lane.

Mr. SPECTER. And in what city is Storey Lane located?

Mr. WORRELL. Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you born?

Mr. WORRELL. Livermore, Calif.

Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you at the present time?

Mr. WORRELL. Twenty.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in California?

Mr. WORRELL. I am not exactly sure. I was a little bitty old thing and I think it was 2 or 3 years.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you move from California?

Mr. WORRELL. From California we moved to Abilene, I think.

Mr. SPECTER. Abilene, Tex.?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you lived in Texas since that time?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your marital status?

Mr. WORRELL. Sir?

Mr. SPECTER. Are you married or single?

Mr. WORRELL. Single, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you live with your parents?

Mr. WORRELL. My mother and sister.

Mr. SPECTER. And how much schooling have you had?

Mr. WORRELL. Eleven years.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you end your schooling, if you have ended it?

Mr. WORRELL. I ended it October of this year, I quit.

Mr. SPECTER. What school were you going to at that time?

Mr. WORRELL. Thomas Jefferson.

Mr. SPECTER. High school?

Mr. WORRELL. High school; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Located in Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you in the 11th grade or had you completed the 11th grade?

Mr. WORRELL. I was a senior.

Mr. SPECTER. How were your grades in school?

Mr. WORRELL. Average.

(The Chief Justice entered the hearing room at this point.)

Mr. SPECTER. How were you occupied or employed back on November 22, 1963?

Mr. WORRELL. I was in school then. I skipped school to go there.

Mr. SPECTER. You were attending Jefferson High School on that day or were enrolled at that time?

Mr. WORRELL. I was enrolled but I hadn't been going since October.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any special reason for your not going since October?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you been employed anywhere from the time you stopped going to school?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. I was employed for El Capitan Oil Drilling out in Kermit, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. What sort of work were you doing for them?

Mr. WORRELL. I was a floor man on a derrick.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you say floor man?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. On November 22, 1963, were you working on that day for your employer?

Mr. WORRELL. No. I didn't start this oil job until--it was the last of January.

Mr. SPECTER. Of 1964?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you working for them at the present time?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Whom are you working for now?

Mr. WORRELL. I am not employed now.

Mr. SPECTER. Then going back to November 22, 1963, you had no job at that time?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you attend school that day at all?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline for us briefly what your activities were from the time you awakened until about noon time on November 22?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I got up about, well, I got up at my usual time, about 6:30. I was going to go to school that day but I decided to go see the President and my mother left about 7:30, and my sister left about a quarter of 8. I left about 8, and hitchhiked down to Love Field and got there. It took me quite a while to get there, about 9, and just messed around there until the President come in, whatever time that was. And then I didn't get to see him good at all. So, I caught a bus and went over, went downtown and I just, I don't know, happened to pick that place at the Depository, and I stood at the corner of Elm and Houston.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you leave Love Field before the President did?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you happen to leave Love Field before he left?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, so I could see him better.

Mr. SPECTER. Couldn't you get a good view of him at Love Field?

Mr. WORRELL. No, I just saw him off the plane and I figured that I wasn't going to see him good so I was going to get a better place to see him.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you travel from Love Field down to Elm and Houston?

Mr. WORRELL. Bus. No, no; I just traveled so far on the bus. I went down to Elm, and took a bus from there. I went down as far as, I don't know where that bus stops, anyway I got close to there and I walked the rest of the way.

Mr. SPECTER. What time, to the best of your recollection, did you arrive at the intersection of Elm and Houston?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, about 10, 10:30, 10:45, something around there. There weren't many people standing around there then.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, about how long before the Presidential motorcade came to Elm and Houston did you get there?

Mr. WORRELL. An hour; an hour and a half.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure you were at Love Field when the President arrived there?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now I am going to show you a photograph which I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 359. Take a look at that, if you would, please, and tell us whether or not you can identify what scene that is?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, this is Elm, Pacific, and Commerce. This is the Depository right here, and this is Stemmons, and this is the way the President come down.

Mr. SPECTER. So is that the assassination scene itself?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now take a look at that picture and tell us where you were standing--and I will give you a pencil so you can mark it on that picture itself--at the time the Presidential motorcade came by. Mark it with an "X," if you would, just exactly where you were standing, as best as you can recollect it, at this moment, at the time the President went by.

Mr. WORRELL. Right underneath that window right there.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, how close were you standing to this building which I will ask you to identify; first of all, what building is that?

Mr. WORRELL. That is the Texas Depository.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now how close to that building were you standing?

Mr. WORRELL. I was, I don't know, 4 or 5 feet out from it.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you standing with your face to the building, with your back to the building, or how?

Mr. WORRELL. My back was to the building.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph which has been identified as Commission Exhibit 360 and I will ask you if you can identify what that building is?

Mr. WORRELL. That is the Depository.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now on this picture will you again, with an "X," mark where you were standing as closely as you can recollect it.

Mr. WORRELL. That car is in the way.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Put the mark then right above where the car is, indicating where you were standing on the sidewalk near that building.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you observe the President's motorcade come by?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe to us what you saw, heard, and observed at that time, as the motorcade came by.

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I saw him--I was standing looking--I don't know my directions very well; anyway, I was looking down towards Elm Street watching him come, and they filed by me----

Mr. SPECTER. On which street were you watching them come?

Mr. WORRELL. This way.

Mr. SPECTER. Look at Exhibit 359 and pick out which street they were on?

Mr. WORRELL. They were coming down this way, so on and so forth.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, now, were they coming down Elm Street or were they coming down Main Street with a right-hand turn on to Houston Street with a curve on Houston down Elm, recollect it if you can?

Mr. WORRELL. That is right. They did turn around.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they come down----

Mr. WORRELL. I didn't see him up there.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was the President's motorcade at the time you first saw it?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, about right in here.

Mr. SPECTER. Proceeding in this direction, indicating in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street, right?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, north.

Mr. SPECTER. Then tell us what the President's motorcade did?

Mr. WORRELL. It turned and went down this way.

Mr. SPECTER. Made a left-hand or right-hand turn?

Mr. WORRELL. Left-hand turn.

Mr. SPECTER. Did it pass right by in front of where you were standing?

Mr. WORRELL. Within a hundred feet, I guess.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to get a pretty good view of the President's motorcade?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right; go ahead and tell us.

Mr. WORRELL. Didn't get too good a view of the President either, I missed out on there too. But as they went by, they got, oh at least another 50, 75 feet on past me, and then I heard the shots.

Mr. SPECTER. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. WORRELL. Four.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anything at about that time?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir, I looked up and saw the rifle, but I would say about 6 inches of it.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you see the rifle?

Mr. WORRELL. I am not going--I am not too sure but I told the FBI it was either in the fifth or the sixth floor on the far corner, on the east side.

Mr. SPECTER. Now looking at the picture which we have identified as Commission Exhibit No. 360, which is where you have drawn an "X," can you indicate the line of vision which you followed to the point where the rifle was to the best of your ability to recollect?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, when I heard the first shot it was too loud to be a firecracker, I knew that, because there was quite a big boom, and I don't know, just out of nowhere, I looked up like that, just straight up.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating you looked straight back over your head, raising your head to look over your body at the 90 degree angle?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes; and I saw it for the second time and I looked back to the motorcade.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe at that time?

Mr. WORRELL. I saw about 6 inches of the gun, the rifle. It had--well it had a regular long barrel but it had a long stock and you could only see maybe 4 inches of the barrel, and I could see----

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe any of the stock?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How much of the stock were you able to observe?

Mr. WORRELL. Just very little, just about 2 inches.

Mr. SPECTER. How many inches of the barrel then could you observe protruding beyond the stock?

Mr. WORRELL. About 4 inches, I would say, not very much.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, at the time of the second shot were you able to observe anything at that precise instant?

Mr. WORRELL. You mean as to firing it.

Mr. SPECTER. As to anything at all. What did you see when the second shot went off?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I looked to see where he was aiming and after the second shot and I have seen the President slumping down in the seat, and----

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see the President slump in his seat after the second shot?

Mr. WORRELL. Uh, huh. And about that----

Mr. SPECTER. Did you look up and see the rifle between the first and the second shots?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. And saw the firing on the second and then before he could get a shot I was--I took in everything but especially the car, the President's car, and saw him slumping, and I looked up again and turned around and started running and saw it fire a third time, and then----

Mr. SPECTER. When did you see it fire a third time, when you looked up, the time you just described?

Mr. WORRELL. When I was, I did it all in one motion, I looked up, turned around and ran, pivoted.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you hear, if anything, after that?

Mr. WORRELL. Just a lot of commotion, everybody was screaming and saying "duck."

Mr. SPECTER. After the third shot, did you hear a fourth shot?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes. Just as I got to the corner of Exhibit 360, I heard the fourth shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, did these four shots come close together or how would you describe the timing in general on those?

Mr. WORRELL. Succession.

Mr. SPECTER. Were they very fast?

Mr. WORRELL. They were right in succession.

Mr. SPECTER. Now going back to the position of the rifle which you testified that you saw, you say it was either on the fifth or sixth floor?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any way you can tell us which floor it was on, or would the angle of your observation permit you to be sure it was the fifth or sixth floors?

Mr. WORRELL. I am not going to say I am positive, but that one there.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, would you mark that one----

Mr. WORRELL. Because that right there, I feel, would have obstructed my vision but I said it was either on the fifth or sixth floor.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, now, will you mark with a "Y" the window which you have just pointed to?

(At this point Chief Justice Warren departed the hearing room.)

Mr. WORRELL. A "Y?"

Mr. SPECTER. A "Y."

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. You have marked the "Y" over two windows. Was it the window--which window was it there as best you can recollect, as between those two?

Mr. WORRELL. I didn't mean to bring it down that far but this one.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you put an arrow then at the window that you have just indicated, was the one where the rifle was protruding from?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. So, the sum of it is you are not sure whether it was the fifth or the sixth floor, but you believe it was on the floor where you have marked a "Y" which is the sixth floor and that was the line of vision as you looked straight up over your head?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you run, which is what you have just described that you did next?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, a better view of it is here in 360. I ran down Houston Street alongside the building and then crossed over the street, I ran alongside the building and crossed over, and in 359, I was standing over here, and I saw this man come bustling out of this door.

Mr. SPECTER. Before you get to that, Mr. Worrell, let me show you a diagram which has been prepared here, which may be of some assistance to you in telling us your movements in running. I will mark this as Commission Exhibit 361 and ask Mr. David Belin, Staff Counsel, to make a statement as to the preparation of this exhibit for the record.

Mr. BELIN. The record will show that Exhibit 361 was prepared in the exhibit section of the Federal Bureau of Investigation by Inspector Leo. J. Gauthier and Eugene Paul Airy, exhibit specialist, with the assistance of Charles D. Musser, illustrator, with particular reference to showing the Texas School Book Depository Building, and the immediate area with relation to the parking lot that employees used.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, take a good look at this. Study it for just a moment in order to get your bearings on this particular map. This is the Texas School Book Depository Building designated as such. This is Houston Street and this is the direction I am indicating that the motorcade, as you have described from the other exhibit, came from, a generally northerly direction. This is generally north, and it made the left-hand turn which you have already described for the record, onto Elm Street Parkway going down the front there.

Now perhaps the best place to start on this is with this red pencil, to put a small "X" where you were standing on this map.

Mr. WORRELL. Where I was standing?

Mr. SPECTER. Where you were standing.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now will you describe your movement in running as you had started to a few moments ago, indicating with a line of the red pencil just exactly where you went and describe it as you go along.

Mr. WORRELL. Well, as I said on the third shot I was looking up and pivoting and turning to run at the same time. When I got here I heard the fourth shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating that you were at that point right at the corner of the building on Houston?

Mr. WORRELL. Making a turn.

Mr. SPECTER. Having moved slightly to your left, and beginning to make a turn to go in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street?

Mr. WORRELL. I thought that was north.

Mr. SPECTER. No, this is north, there is a symbol showing which is north.

Mr. WORRELL. Okay. Then I turned the corner, went right down beside the building on the sidewalk and when I got to the corner----

Mr. SPECTER. Corner of what?

Mr. WORRELL. Of this building.

Mr. SPECTER. Of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do there?

Mr. WORRELL. Cut directly across, kind of at an angle.

Mr. SPECTER. Across Houston Street as you have drawn the red line there?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, and I rested there, I was out of breath, I smoke too much, short winded.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark that "Y" where you stopped and rested and tell us how long you stopped there?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. WORRELL. How long?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. WORRELL. I was there approximately 3 minutes before I saw this man come out the back door here.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now will you put a "Z" where you first saw the man whom you have just described or mentioned?

Mr. WORRELL. It is here I am pretty sure, I am not positive.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. You are pretty sure--but you can't be positive--but you are pretty sure?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Okay. Now, describe as best you can the man whom you have testified you saw at point "Z."

Mr. WORRELL. Describe his appearance?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes. Start by telling us how tall he was, to the best of your ability to recollect and estimate?

Mr. WORRELL. To the--it is going to be within 3 inches, 5-7 to 5-10.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to his weight?

Mr. WORRELL. 155 to 165.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to his height?

Mr. WORRELL. 5-7, 5-10.

Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me, your best estimate as to his age.

Mr. WORRELL. Well, the way he was running, I would say he was in his late twenties or middle--I mean early thirties. Because he was fast moving on.

Mr. SPECTER. Of what race was he?

Mr. WORRELL. White.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the characteristics of his hair?

Mr. WORRELL. Black.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he have----

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I will say brunette.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he have a full head of hair, a partial head of hair, or what?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, see, I didn't see his face, I just saw the back of his head and it was full in the back. I don't know what the front looked like. But it was full in the back.

Mr. SPECTER. What clothes did the man have on?

Mr. WORRELL. Dark, like a jacket like that.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a dark gray jacket?

Mr. WORRELL. No, no. It was a jacket like that.

Mr. SPECTER. A suit jacket?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Or was it a sports jacket?

Mr. WORRELL. Sports jacket.

Mr. SPECTER. Did not have on matching coat and trousers?

Mr. WORRELL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it dark in color or light?

Mr. WORRELL. It was dark in color. I don't know whether it was blue, black, or brown, but it was dark, and he had light pants. And that is all I can say on his clothes, except his coat was open and kind of flapping back in the breeze when he was running.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, are there any other distinguishing characteristics that you can describe about him?

Mr. WORRELL. Not a thing.

Mr. SPECTER. What did he----

Mr. WORRELL. He wasn't holding nothing when he was running. He was just running.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe him do, if anything?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, when he ran out here, he ran along the side of the Depository Building and then when he got----

Mr. SPECTER. Make a dotted line as to where he went, or take this black pencil and make a line as to where he went.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you see him eventually go?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, he went on further.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the last you saw him?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did something come between you and him so that your vision was obstructed?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. As of the point you have just dotted out there?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What obstructed your view of him at that juncture or at that point?

Mr. WORRELL. I can't really be sure, it was a building, but the type of building, I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. During the course of your seeing him, did you ever get a view of his face?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, no, no.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. What did you do next, Mr. Worrell?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I went on down this way and headed up back to Elm Street.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating you went on down to Pacific?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And then proceeded----

Mr. WORRELL. No, no; that is wrong. I went on Pacific and----

Mr. SPECTER. Just a minute. You proceeded from point "Y" on in a generally northerly direction to Pacific and then in what direction did you go on Pacific, this would be in an easterly direction?

Mr. WORRELL. I went east.

Mr. SPECTER. You went in an easterly direction how many blocks down Pacific?

Mr. WORRELL. I went down to Market and from Market I went on Ross.

Mr. SPECTER. You went left on Market down to Ross, and then?

Mr. WORRELL. From Ross I went all the way to Ervay.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you heading for at that time?

Mr. WORRELL. For the bus stop near my mother's office. And I rode the bus from there out to the school and hitchhiked the rest of the way to Farmers Branch.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. When did you first report to any official what you had seen and heard on this occasion?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I turned the TV on early next morning to see what had happened, and Chief Curry was making a plea----

Senator COOPER. Is that going to become a part of the evidence at this point?