Chapter V: Part 5

Well, Oswald ran home to get his jacket. He left the house, saw a police car parked, went up to the police car, according to the affidavit of Mrs. Markham, leaned on the car, and when the officer came out, he shot him to death, and then he went to the movies. And in the movies, and just before he went into the Texas Theatre, he was so extremely agitated that a gentleman on the outside of the theatre--I think his name is John Brewer--I am not certain--you have that affidavit, I am sure--indicated that Oswald was acting very agitated, the cashier made the same statement, and changing from seat to seat. The police were called and he was arrested.

Of course, one would wonder why Oswald, who might have thought that he had made his getaway while in the Texas Theatre unobserved, would become so extremely agitated, when just a moment after he allegedly shot the President and the Governor, with the policeman charging up the stairs, pointing a pistol at him, about to arrest him for these two terrible crimes, he was calm, according to Mr. Truly, but he became agitated only when he thought he had secured his getaway.

I think those of us who saw, as we all did, I guess, Oswald on television in his brief appearance would conclude that he seemed, even while in custody and charged with these two crimes, somewhat calm under the circumstances--calm when charged with the assassination, calm a moment after killing the President, when a policeman pointed a pistol at him, but agitated only in the theatre, and just before going to the theatre when he might have concluded that he was then in the clear.

I would just like to conclude on this note.

I hope the Commission will give consideration to my request, which the Commission has answered, but which again I would like at this time to renew. That is, that I be permitted, at the request of Mrs. Oswald, the mother of the accused defendant, really, before this Commission's hearing, to represent his interests here, to have access to the material which you have access to, and the right to present witnesses.

It is not usual for an attorney representing a party to be given an opportunity to testify, which is quite unusual--but rather to be given the opportunity to present witnesses and to cross-examine them. It has generally been my role in criminal cases. Never before have I testified in behalf of a client.

If it is the Commission's position that this is not a trial in any respect, and therefore Oswald is not entitled to counsel, that is the position with which I would like to respectfully offer a dissent.

The fact that Oswald is not going to have a real trial flows only from his death, and he is not responsible with that having taken place. Every right belonging to an American citizen charged with a crime was taken from him up to and including his life.

I think now that that episode is completed, hopefully never to reappear ever again in our history, or anything close to it--I think it would be proper to permit him to have counsel before the Commission, counsel who can function on his behalf in terms of cross-examining evidence and presenting witnesses. If it is the Commission's position now that he is entitled to counsel, and the Commission will appoint counsel, then I ask the Commission to consider that the Constitutional right to counsel involves the right to counsel of one's choice, or in the event of the death of a party, to counsel of the choice of the surviving members of the family.

If Marina Oswald, the widow, sought to have counsel represent her husband I would think--here--I would think that would cause a conflict and a problem, if the widow and also the mother made the same request. But as I understand it no request has been made by the widow, who has indicated to the press that she believes her husband is guilty, and through her former business agent, Mr. Martin, who I am told was secured for her by the Secret Service as a business agent, she indicated that even a trial which might prove he was innocent, she would still be sure he was guilty, and has indicated since that time no desire to my knowledge to secure counsel for her husband, her late husband, before the Commission.

I think, then, the mother would, in almost any jurisdiction, be the next person to make a decision in this area, and the mother has made a decision, as you know. She has retained me to represent the rights and interests of her son.

I think under those circumstances it would be proper for the Commission to permit me to participate.

This, of course, is not a jury trial. With all due respect to the integrity and background of each of the members of the Commission, I suggest that it is not the function of the trying body to appoint counsel, or the jury to appoint counsel, but in our society it is just the reverse; it is the function of defense counsel to participate in determining who the jury should be.

Many criminal lawyers, very noted counsel, would probably seek to excuse certain--and again no disrespect at all is meant to the background of members of this Commission--but defense counsel generally seeks to excuse as jurors those who are in any way associated with the Government in a criminal case. And here we have the Government appointing the jury, and then the jury picking counsel, who also is Government connected at this time. I in no way wish to raise the question of the integrity of any of the members of the Commission or counsel or anyone else, or their ability. But that truism about equality has some meaning in terms of impartiality--everyone is impartial to some people, and more impartial to other people. And counsel, in order to function, I believe, must be totally independent and totally committed to the responsibility of representing his client.

But above all, he must be secured by someone who has the ability to speak for the deceased, in this case his mother and his wife. And under those circumstances, I renew my request that I be permitted to, at the request of Lee Oswald's mother, who survives him--to function before this Commission as counsel on his behalf.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Lane, I must advise you that the Commission, as you already know, has considered your request and has denied it. It does not consider you as the attorney for Lee Oswald. Now, this is not for any discussion. We are not going to argue it. You have had your say, and I will just answer.

Lee Oswald left a widow. She is his legal representative. She is represented by counsel. This Commission is cooperating with her in any way she may request. If anyone else wants to present any evidence to this Commission, they may do so. But it is the view and the wish--the will of the Commission--that no one else shall be entitled to participate in the work and the deliberations of the Commission.

We asked you to come here today because we understood that you did have evidence. We are happy to receive it. We want every bit of evidence that you have. You may present anything that you wish to us. But you are not to be a participant in the work of the Commission. I assume you have some questions you would like to ask Mr. Lane, Mr. Rankin?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes, sir. Do you have any affidavits that you would like to submit to the Commission? I understood at one time you had some affidavits.

Mr. LANE. Well, I do have some affidavits. They are not originals--they are photostatic copies of affidavits taken by the Dallas police and on file in the Dallas district attorney's office. Now--including the paraffin test which I made reference to.

Now, if the Commission does not have copies of those, I would like to be so informed and I will see what I can do. I assume the Commission has copies of all those documents.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes. Do you have anything beyond that that you care to submit?

Mr. LANE. I have the various statements which I have made reference to from Mrs. Hill and Mrs. Markham, Mr. Klein, Mr. Ryder. But I have given you the essence of those statements. If you are interested in pursuing that, I think it might be best to call them.

Mr. RANKIN. I am interested if there was anything beyond what you have given us, Mr. Lane. And if you say you have given us the substance, then I take it that is complete as far as it could be of assistance to us, except our going directly to the witness. Is that what you have in mind?

Mr. LANE. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, do you have any witnesses that you would like to present for the Commission?

Mr. LANE. Well, I would like--I do not know that I would be able to do that, frankly.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, would you have any that you suggest that we should interview, bring before the Commission, that you have not presented up to this time in your testimony?

Mr. LANE. No; there is no one who I know of other than those names I have given, and two other persons whose permission I am going to have to secure in reference to other matters, and hopefully they will be willing to not only allow their names to be used, but to come forward and testify, if you wish to hear them.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, is there any documentary evidence beyond which you have submitted that you would like to submit to the Commission?

Mr. LANE. Not beyond what I have submitted or made reference to.

Mr. RANKIN. In regard to the paraffin that you have referred to, do you have any particular materials or anything you want to refer the Commission to?

Mr. LANE. To that particular test taken by Mr. Anderson on November 23d?

Mr. RANKIN. Anything beyond that?

Mr. LANE. No; not at this time.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, I understand at one time you referred to some meeting in the Carousel Club a week or so before the assassination. Do you have any material on that or any information?

Mr. LANE. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything you would care to present to the Commission?

Mr. LANE. Yes. I have been informed--and this is the source I will have to check with again in order to secure his testimony----

Mr. RANKIN. You will advise us if you are permitted to.

Mr. LANE. Yes. But I can tell you the substance--that a meeting took place on November 14, 1963, in the Carousel Club between Officer Tippit and Bernard Weissman, Mr. Weissman being the gentleman who placed a full-page advertisement in the Dallas Morning News which was printed on November 22, asking a series of questions of President Kennedy. It was addressed "Welcome to Dallas, President Kennedy. Why have you traded the Monroe Doctrine for spirit of Moscow. Why has Gus Hall and the Communist Party endorsed your 1964 election" and such matter. I think these two give a rather clear indication of the kind of advertisement that it was. And I have been informed that Mr. Weissman and Officer Tippit and a third person were present there. I have been given the name of the third person. But for matters which I will make plain to the Commission, I will be pleased to give you the name of the third person as given to me, but not in the presence of the press. I would rather do that in executive session--that one piece of testimony.

The CHAIRMAN. That is satisfactory to do that, if you wish.

Mr. LANE. Thank you, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything else about that incident that you know and want to tell the Commission at this time?

Mr. LANE. No.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the entire story, is it?

Mr. LANE. That they were there for more than 2 hours conferring--these three persons.

The CHAIRMAN. Your information does not--is not to the effect as to what they were conferring on.

Mr. LANE. No; they did not hear that.

Mr. RANKIN. I am not suggesting, Mr. Lane, that you have been selective about what you have told the Commission and what you have not told, but I do wish to make the inquiry as to whether there is any information you might have that the Commission should be informed of as to other people that you might have interviewed in regard to this matter.

Mr. LANE. I have given the Commission at this time everything that I know.

Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything about the palm prints that you can tell us in addition to what you have given us?

Mr. LANE. Not in addition to what I have said.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, I will ask you generally--is there anything in addition to what you have said that you would like to tell the Commission at this time that has any bearing upon this investigation?

Mr. LANE. All I can say in reference to that, Mr. Rankin, is that I am practically engaged in this project by myself, which means I am extremely limited. This is not my profession--investigator. I am an attorney. And there are many leads which I have followed, which have led me nowhere at all, obviously. Before finding Mrs. Markham or before finding Mrs. Hill, there were many other persons I talked to who were not even present, who I have heard were present. But there are still large numbers, probably at this point hundreds of leads which I have heard of, and which I have not yet been able to trace or to check through. I do not think it would be constructive just to tell you all of the things I have heard, because most of them are patently untrue, and they just require a great deal of work. But I will continue to do that, and should I come across any material which might in any way interest you, I will certainly either write to you for the purpose of presenting it to you through the mail in affidavit form, if you prefer, or indicate that I will be available to come and testify again if you prefer that.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Lane, your client, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, when she was testifying before us, told us that she had sold some pictures to the press and she wanted the originals of all the pictures that she presented to us, because she said they were of great financial value to her. Do you know what sales she has made concerning pictures such as you have shown us?

Mr. LANE. In terms of the picture with the rifle, you mean, for example?

The CHAIRMAN. Well, we might start with that.

Mr. LANE. She has never seen such a picture, she has informed me, of Lee Harvey Oswald with the rifle--except after they had been published. She never had any knowledge of such pictures, and had never seen them.

I do not really represent Marguerite Oswald. She has retained me to represent the interests of her son. And so in her business dealings in terms of her sale of pictures and articles, I have not represented her. I believe she has a literary agent or perhaps even another lawyer--I don't know. But she has retained me to represent her son's interests, not to represent her at all.

The CHAIRMAN. I see.

Mr. LANE. Of course, we have conferred. But I do not have that information.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr Lane, I have a further question. Have you ever been prevented by any law enforcement officer from interviewing anyone concerning this matter when you wished to?

Mr. LANE. Well, I would say that I have been prevented by the statements made by the law enforcement persons or agents to the individual, that he should not talk to anyone about this case, that it is a secret matter. As I have indicated, Mr. Klein----

Mr. RANKIN. You have described those cases, have you?

Mr. LANE. I have also spoken to a reporter who is employed by a Dallas newspaper, who informed me that he sought to question more than 150 in the area, and that many of those persons informed him that they were ordered by the FBI not to talk to anyone about this case, and that almost none of the witnesses would talk with him about the case, and that some of them, when he asked the reason that they were not talking to him, it was "Was this because you have been told by the FBI?"--and he indicated they were not even allowed to answer that question. But many of them told him that the FBI or the Secret Service ordered them not to talk. In no other respect have I been interfered with to my knowledge.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have the name of that reporter--can you reveal that to us?

Mr. LANE. I cannot reveal it at this time, but I am hopeful you will permit me to. He is one of the reporters I referred to earlier.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator, do you have any questions?

Senator COOPER. No; I have no questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rhyne.

Mr. RHYNE. Mr. Chief Justice--I wanted to ask Mr. Lane, on his inquiry about what happened to Oswald during the 48 hours he was under detention--you suggested that the Commission make an inquiry into whether his civil rights were denied. Do you have any information on that subject?

Mr. LANE. Yes. I saw what happened--I read in the newspapers and heard on the radio.

Mr. RHYNE. It looked to me that most of the material presented here today was really in the newspapers. You are merely repeating what someone else has said.

Mr. LANE. I don't think that is an accurate characterization of my testimony at all, sir. For example, I told you before of conversations that I have had--I know you listened intently--I told you of conversations that I had with Mr. Klein. I told you of conversations I had with Miss Hill, who is probably the closest eyewitness to the assassination, with Miss Woodward, who is perhaps the second or third closest witness to the assassination, with Dial Ryder, with at least two or three other persons.

Mr. RHYNE. But on this one point, with respect to denial of any civil rights or protection of civil rights during this 48-hour period, you say that is all in the newspaper stories?

Mr. LANE. No. What I meant by that response was that the basic denial that I was discussing was the development of the case publicly against him, so that it would be impossible in securing a jury panel to secure 12 jurors probably anywhere in this country who had not reached a conclusion, first of all. And secondly, obviously the death of the accused, which I know is a matter for the Commission's inquiry already.

Mr. RHYNE. I notice that you said your investigation was incomplete. So I just wanted to be sure that I understood what you meant with respect to this 48-hour detention period.

Mr. LANE. No; I have no knowledge over and above that that I could give you in that area.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Murray, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

Mr. MURRAY. No; I have none, Mr. Chief Justice, at this time.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mr. Lane, if any evidence should come to your attention in the future, would you be willing to convey the information to the Commission?

Mr. LANE. Yes; I certainly would, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We will appreciate it if you would. Thank you for your attendance.

We will adjourn at this time.

(Whereupon, at 5:35 p.m., the President's Commission adjourned, and reconvened in executive session.)

TESTIMONY OF MR. LANE RESUMED IN EXECUTIVE SESSION

The CHAIRMAN. The session will be in order.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you proceed, Mr. Lane, in executive session now, to describe the names?

Mr. LANE. The third name that I was informed--the person that I was informed was there, the third person, is named Jack Ruby. It was my feeling, of course, while his case was pending it would not be proper to comment on that in the presence of the press.

Mr. RANKIN. You mean the third person in the group apparently conferring?

Mr. LANE. Yes. Tippit, Weissman, and Ruby.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you made any public statement of this kind before on this subject--about this meeting?

Mr. LANE. Not about Ruby--about a meeting between Weissman and Tippit, yes.

The CHAIRMAN. But you never named Ruby publicly?

Mr. LANE. No; I have not. I shall not.

The CHAIRMAN. I see. Do you know any way by which we might corroborate that meeting--the fact that it was held?

Mr. LANE. I am going this evening to see, or tomorrow--I will try this evening first--to see if I can secure permission by my informant to reveal his name, and I hope he will be willing to come forward and testify as to what took place.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission would like to know it, if you can do that.

Mr. LANE. Yes; I shall inform you as soon as I discover that. I would like very much for the Commission to have that information. Can I indicate to my informant that the matter can be so raised so that his name will not be known to anyone other than the Commission?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir; you may.

Mr. LANE. That will be extremely helpful.

The CHAIRMAN. If you can think of any way that can be corroborated, it would be most helpful to us.

Mr. LANE. I understand.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman, you just got in as we are about to adjourn. Mr. Lane was telling us of one piece of information that he had concerning a meeting that was held at the Carousel Nightclub, about a week, did you say----

Mr. LANE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. About a week before the assassination, at which the man who financed this full-page article in the paper, Dallas paper, this morning, concerning President Kennedy, and Officer Tippit, and he told us in private here--he didn't want to mention it before the press--Jack Ruby. And he tells us that he will try to find out from his informant more about that, and if he possibly can deliver the information to us.

Senator COOPER. May I ask one question?

I assume from what you have said you wouldn't be able to answer it, but was there any reason ascribed for the presence of Tippit?

Mr. LANE. My informant does not know the reason.

Senator COOPER. Or Ruby, with Weissman?

Mr. LANE. My informant does not know that information.

Representative FORD. May I ask a question, Mr. Chief Justice? When did this information come to your attention, Mr. Lane?

Mr. LANE. Some weeks ago.

Representative FORD. Do you consider the informant a reliable, responsible person?

Mr. LANE. Yes. I cannot vouch, of course, for the information personally, but I believe the informant is a reliable and a responsible person.

Representative FORD. Would your informant be willing, as far as you know--be willing to testify and give the Commission this information directly?

Mr. LANE. I am going to try to arrange that this evening. The Chief Justice has indicated that his name would not be known if he did that, and that I did not know that I could make that statement to him before now. I hope that will be decisive.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything further, gentlemen?

If not----

Representative FORD. May I ask, Mr. Chairman, are we going to have a schedule laid out, are we going to have a meeting of the Commission where maybe we will know what the schedule is in the next week or 10 days or 2 weeks?

Mr. RANKIN. We have a draft now.

The CHAIRMAN. We have a draft for you to see.

Mr. LANE. Perhaps I should withdraw at this time.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. Lane, thank you very much, sir.

(Whereupon, at 5:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Monday, March 9, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF ROY H. KELLERMAN, WILLIAM ROBERT GREER, CLINTON J. HILL, AND RUFUS WAYNE YOUNGBLOOD

The President's Commission met at 9:10 a.m. on March 9, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members.

Also present were Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Arlen Specter, assistant counsel; Walter Craig and Charles Murray, observers; and Fred Smith, Treasury Department.

TESTIMONY OF ROY H. KELLERMAN, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, the Commission will be in order. Will you be seated, please?

Would you state the names of the witnesses who are to be heard today, Mr. Specter?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, Your Honor; the witnesses are to be Roy Kellerman of the Secret Service, William R. Greer of the Secret Service, Clinton Hill, also of the Secret Service, and Rufus Youngblood, representative of the Secret Service.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, gentlemen; you know the purpose of the meeting, and we will call first, Mr. who?

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman is our first witness.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Kellerman. Gentlemen, I want to announce that today it will be necessary for me to spend practically all of the morning with the Supreme Court, and in my absence Congressman Ford will conduct the hearing today because he can be here practically all the time. I will be here in and out throughout the day, however.

Congressman Ford, will you take over please?

Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you proceed? I believe the first thing is to swear the witness.

Mr. SPECTER. Very good, sir.

Representative FORD. Do you promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, so help you God?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I do, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. KELLERMAN. My name is Roy H. Kellerman.

Mr. SPECTER. By whom are you employed, Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am employed as a special agent for the Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. How old are you?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am 48 years old.

Mr. SPECTER. Married?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Pardon?

Mr. SPECTER. Are you married?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; I am married and have two daughters; their ages are 20 and 17.

Mr. SPECTER. Where do you reside?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Bethesda, Md.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your current duty station with the Secret Service?

Mr. KELLERMAN. My current duty station is assistant special agent in charge of the White House detail.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been with the Secret Service?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is my 23d year.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you sketch in a general outline what your duties have been with the Secret Service since the time you started with them, please?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I was appointed an agent with the Secret Service in Detroit, Mich., the 19th of December 1941. I was transferred to Washington, D.C., the field office, on February 9, 1942. Prior to that I had a 30-day assignment in the office of Cincinnati, Ohio, temporarily. I worked in the Washington field office from the 9th of February 1942 until the middle of March 1942, whereby I was temporarily transferred to the White House detail. This transfer became permanent, effective, I believe it was, the 17th of April or the latter part of April in 1942, still as a special agent.

At the White House detail we work on shifts around the clock, protecting the President and his family. I was a member of one of those three shifts. Presently, these shifts change on a two-weekly basis, from 8 to 4, 4 to midnight, and midnight to 8. I remained on the White House detail until February 7, 1951, when I was transferred to Indianapolis, Ind. Prior to that time I had received enough seniority whereby I grew up on this shift from the bottom to the top, and was in charge of one of the shifts prior to my departure to Indianapolis. This was fieldwork in Indiana.

On February 1, 1955, I was transferred back to the White House detail. On my return I was comparable to like, let's say, the No. 2 man of a shift. I was not in charge of it.

From 1955, I believe a couple of years later a vacancy occurred, a top man of that shift left and I received his position. That title was assistant to the special agent in charge. You at that time governed each man on your shift. You were in charge of him.

On October 1 of 1962 a vacancy was opened in the three top officials of the White House detail, which are comprised of, let me say, the special agent in charge, who has two assistants; one vacancy occurred. It was the oldest man on the White House detail; it was given to me and that is why today I have the title of assistant special agent in charge.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, since you brought us up to 1955, have your duties remained the same since that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I should bring you up to 1964. In 1955, I was transferred back to the White House detail, remained on that status on shift work until 1962, whereas I am now an assistant special agent in charge, which duties are the overseeing and the complete responsibility of the entire White House detail.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your educational background, Mr.----

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am a high school graduate only.

Mr. SPECTER. What year did you graduate from high school?

Mr. KELLERMAN. 1933.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your activities between graduation from high school and the time you joined the Secret Service, please?

Mr. KELLERMAN. In October of 1937 I completed the training with the Michigan State Police. I was sworn in as a trooper. I remained with the Michigan State Police until December 18, 1941, when I resigned and was appointed to the U.S. Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. How were you employed or occupied from the time of graduation from high school until the time you joined the Michigan State Police?

Mr. KELLERMAN. 1933 there wasn't too much work; 1935 was my first work with the Dodge Corp. of the Chrysler people in Detroit.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you work there, sir?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Three years, off and on.

Mr. SPECTER. You described in a general way the organization of the Secret Service on the White House protective detail. Who is the special agent in charge?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Gerald A. Behn, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he the special agent in charge back on November 22, 1963?

Mr. KELLERMAN. He was.

Mr. SPECTER. How many shifts are there?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Three shifts, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And approximately how many men are assigned to each shift?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Ten men on each shift, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your specific duties back on November 22 of 1963?

Mr. KELLERMAN. My specific duty, gentlemen, on the 22d of November of 1963, I was in charge of the detail for this trip of President Kennedy, for the trip to Texas in those 2 days.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you personally make the trip to Texas?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I rode on the President's plane on the entire tour.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline in a general way the times of departure and arrival on the trip to Texas up until the morning of November 22, please?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I just don't have the time we left Washington, D.C.

Mr. SPECTER. Without the precise times; just in a general way.

Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. We departed in the morning from Washington. Our first stop was in San Antonio, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. Which morning was that, sir?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It was November 21; it was at San Antonio, Tex., that we picked up the then Vice President Johnson. The two people continued on this tour of the State in separate planes. During our stay in San Antonio, we then flew from San Antonio to Houston, Tex. There were ceremonies there, and the program there which had been set up. From Houston we flew into Fort Worth, Tex., where we remained overnight on November 21.

We arrived at the Texas Hotel, it was a little after 11 o'clock in the evening. There were no activities until the following morning, November 22.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did the activities start the following morning?

Mr. KELLERMAN. On November 22, the activities started at around 8:25 in the morning when the President, accompanied by the then Vice President Johnson, and a few congressional leaders walked out the front door, across this street which was a parking lot, and a few minutes' speech was made to the gathering there. It was a light drizzle at the time. From there we returned to the hotel and he attended a breakfast given by the chamber of commerce and, I believe it was, a citizens group of Fort Worth. On completion of the breakfast he returned to his suite. The weather was then changing. It had quit raining and it looked like it was going to break out and be a real beautiful day. In the neighborhood of 10 o'clock in the morning I received a call from Mr. Lawson, Special Agent Lawson, who had the advance from Dallas, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Lawson was with the Secret Service, was he?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; he is. He asked me to determine whether the bubbletop car that the President would ride in in Dallas that day should have the top down or remain up.

Mr. SPECTER. Let me interrupt you there for just a minute, Mr. Kellerman. I show you a photograph which has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 344. Are you able to identify that picture and the automobile in that picture?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; this is the 1961 Lincoln Continental four-door convertible bubbletop. It is a special car.

Mr. SPECTER. For the purpose of the record, how many doors does that car have?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This vehicle has four doors.

Mr. SPECTER. And in the posture of the picture identified as Commission Exhibit 344, is the top up or down?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The top is down, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what top does that automobile have?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This top is a plastic top. From the rear of the passenger all the way to the windshield there are four sections of plastic glass. The one that comes over the top of the passengers in the back seat, two little sections that come over the two doors, and one over the driver and passenger in the front seat.

Mr. SPECTER. In what way is that attached, if any, to the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Securely bolted, screwed.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, may I ask that the Exhibit 344 be introduced formally in evidence, please?

Representative FORD. It will be so admitted.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 344 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 345. Are you able to tell us what that depicts?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; this is the same vehicle as mentioned in 344. The difference being the top is up and there is a covering, a cloth covering that also fits over this plastic top.

Mr. SPECTER. And Exhibit No. 345 is taken from what angle, Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. KELLERMAN. From the rear, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. As contrasted with Exhibit No. 344, which is taken from what angle?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is from the right side.

Mr. SPECTER. I ask that Exhibit 345 be introduced, if the Commission please.

Representative FORD. So admitted.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 345 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 346, Mr. Kellerman, and ask you if you can tell us what that depicts.

Mr. KELLERMAN. This picture depicts the interior of this same automobile. It has a rear solid seat; there are two other jump seats that can be folded forward in the rear and the complete solid front seat for the driver and passenger. This is the same vehicle.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe what, if anything, is present between the front seat and the rear seat area?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. This metal partition that is erected in back of the driver, between the driver and the passengers in the rear seat, is a metal framework that goes over the car. It has four holes in it. These holes are utilized by the President for parades. As an example, say it was used in Washington where you had an official visitor, and in using one of the streets here as your parade route, he and his guest would stand in this car where the people could view them a little better than sitting in the rear seat.

Mr. SPECTER. Where is that metal bar positioned with respect to the front seat?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It is positioned over the front seat; the top of this bar would be 4 or 5 inches over my head.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it directly over the back portion of the front seat?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Directly over the front seat.

Mr. SPECTER. And you describe it as 4 or 5 inches over your head. Can you give us an estimate of the distance above the top of the front seat?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, I am guessing in the neighborhood of 15, 18 inches.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the width of that metal bar?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The bar, 4 to 6 inches, I would say.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you tell us approximately how wide the automobile itself is?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I can't.

Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the automobile, are there any running boards?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There are no running boards.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any place on the car where someone can stand up and ride as it proceeds in motion?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; on the rear of the vehicle, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How many such positions are there?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There is a step on each side of the spare tire, one man on each one.

Mr. SPECTER. And is there any facility for holding on with a man riding in those positions?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; there is a metal arm erected on the trunk where a man can hold on while standing on the rear of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

May it please the Commission, I move that Exhibit 346 be introduced in evidence.

Representative FORD. It will be so admitted.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 346 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. With reference to the bubble top which you have heretofore described, of what is that composed?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It is composed of plastic, clear plastic substance. Its use would be for a weather matter whereby the President or his occupants can see out. It is not an enclosed car.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it bulletproof?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It is not bulletproof.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it bullet resistant in any way?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It's not bullet resistant.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you describe in a general way at this point what efforts, if any, have been made to obtain a bulletproof clear top for the President's automobile?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Presently?

Mr. SPECTER. Presently or heretofore.

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to have to go in the present day.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine.

Mr. KELLERMAN. This same vehicle, I understand, is being completed with a bullet-resistant top and sides.

Representative FORD. Can you explain the difference between bullet resistant and the existing kind of the top?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I can't; I really can't. I have been behind on this thing and I am at a loss for a better answer.

Representative FORD. Could the present top deflect in any way, destroy the accuracy of a shot?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This would be a guess, Mr. Congressman. I would think that it would be deterred for, let's say, the velocity of a missile coming in at great speed, I think it would deter it; I don't think it would eliminate--it still would enter the top.

Representative FORD. The vehicle.

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am sure; yes, sir.

Representative FORD. But as far as you know the top that was available would not impede the projectile? Do you know whether or not it would deflect its accuracy?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, I have tried to study that, sir. The angle of the back as an example which is, what degree I don't recall, hoping that--of course, it was now known to be an upshot into the vehicle hoping that it would deter its force and so forth, but I really don't know. I kind of doubt it.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, in describing the top as being not bulletproof and not bullet resistant, state whether you are describing the top which they are currently working on or the top which was present at the time of November 22, 1963?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the top that they are currently working on.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, as to the bubble top which accompanied this car on November 22, 1963, was that bulletproof or bullet resistant?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It was not; neither.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not an effort is being made at the present time to develop a bullet-resistant or bulletproof top.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes sir; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you personally familiar with the progress of that effort?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am not, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how the President's automobile was transported from Washington, D.C., to Texas?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. The President's vehicle was transported to San Antonio by cargo aircraft. It was flown to San Antonio a day before the President arrived. It was then flown from San Antonio to Dallas, where it was used on November 22. This vehicle was not used in the other two stops at Houston and Fort Worth.

Representative FORD. When you say cargo aircraft----

Mr. KELLERMAN. Like a C-130, sir.

Representative FORD. A Government?

Mr. KELLERMAN. You are right, sir; that is right.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, what were the President's activities, if you know immediately prior to the time he departed from Fort Worth?

Senator COOPER. Might I ask just one question?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Do you know whether or not prior to November 22 the President's car had ever been equipped with a top which had the capacity to stop or deflect a bullet?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Never had been, Senator.

Senator COOPER. There was none in existence?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, what were the President's activities immediately before departing from Fort Worth on the morning of November 22?

Mr. KELLERMAN. First he walked from the hotel across the street, spoke to a group that were in a parking lot, with other congressional people there in Texas. From there he walked right into the hotel and entered the ballroom where a breakfast was held, given to him by the chamber of commerce and, I believe, the citizens group in Fort Worth.

From there he returned to his suite because there was time left before his departure for Dallas. It was up there in the neighborhood of 10 o'clock in the morning that Special Agent Lawson called me from Dallas asking me to verify whether the top should be put on--should remain on the President's car or should be taken off due to the change of weather. It had been raining slightly in Dallas at that time. I said, "One moment and I will check with you one way or the other."

As I said earlier, the weather was clearing in Fort Worth; it was going to be a nice day. I asked Mr. Kenneth O'Donnell, who is President Kennedy's appointment secretary: "Mr. O'Donnell," I said, "the weather; it is slightly raining in Dallas, predictions of clearing up. Do you desire to have the bubbletop on the President's car or do you, or would you desire to have it removed for this parade over to the Trade Mart?"

His instructions to me were, "If the weather is clear and it is not raining, have that bubbletop off," and that is exactly what I relayed to Mr. Lawson.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, at about what time did President Kennedy depart from Fort Worth?

Mr. KELLERMAN. We were airborne from Fort Worth at 11:20 in the morning.

Mr. SPECTER. In what plane were you airborne?

Mr. KELLERMAN. In the President's special plane, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive in that plane in Dallas?

Mr. KELLERMAN. We arrived in Dallas, Love Field, at 11:40 a.m.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe in a general way what President Kennedy's activities were at Love Field, please.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Very well. May I add this: Again I said there were two planes in this program. The then Vice President Johnson would be in a separate plane. He would land ahead of us by a minute or two, all right. He is in Dallas by the time we arrive at 11:40 a.m. As we are spotted on the apron at Love Field and when the ramp is pulled forward, the Vice President, then Vice President Johnson and Mrs. Johnson, together with a selected group of people would form a reception committee from the end of the ramp straight out to where the motorcade was in place.

At 11:40, as I said, the President and Mrs. Kennedy left that plane, met these people. As we finished greeting these folks here, there was an elderly lady wheeled up in a wheelchair; her name I do not know; the both of them met her. By this time the people are starting to get in their automobiles for this trip into town. The President then noticed that there was quite a gathering of people at this airport in back of a fenced area, and, with her, they both walked over to this crowded area and started shaking hands and greeting these people who had been there perhaps some time before we got in.

Mr. SPECTER. By "her", who do you mean, sir?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mrs. Kennedy; I am sorry.

Mr. SPECTER. What would you estimate the crowd to be?

Mr. KELLERMAN. In the thousands; I would say there were two, three, four thousand people there.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did the greeting of the crowd at Love Field last, Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Fifteen minutes. The motorcade left Love Field at 11:55.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how many cars were there in that motorcade?

Mr. KELLERMAN. At least 15.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the first car in line?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The first car in line, sir, was what we call the police pilot car. The duties of these police officers in that car--they would drive ahead.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you personally know who was in that car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How far ahead of the regular motorcade were they to be?

Mr. KELLERMAN. They could be several blocks ahead of us.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the general purpose of that pilot car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The purpose of that pilot car is to clear the roadway and instruct the officers along the route that the President is in motion and coming in back of them. Next you will find a small group of motorcycles.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how many motorcycles there were in Dallas on that day?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you tell us what the custom is with respect to motorcycles?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; those motorcycles that would be in back of that police car were to assist any officers along the way in any disturbance that they would run into before we got to that point, or secondly, in the event that we needed them back on our car they could be called, utilized.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the next car in line?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The next car is the lead car. That car on that day was driven by Chief Curry of the Dallas Police Department.

His occupants in that car was Special Agent Winston Lawson, who was carrying a portable radio with him. Also in this car was Special Agent in Charge Verne Sorrels, in charge of our Dallas office. The other occupant, I believe, was a deputy sheriff.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it Sheriff Decker, perhaps, of Dallas County?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The name doesn't reach me, sir; I am sorry.

Mr. SPECTER. You described a radio. Will you tell us a little more fully what radio transmission there was in the motorcade, please?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. This lead car which Mr. Lawson was in has a portable radio. The President's car is next. This is equipped with a permanent set radio on the same frequency as that gentleman up front. The next car is our Secret Service followup car which has a permanent installation. The Secret Service car, as I say, is equipped with a permanent installation which connects the President's car and the lead car. The next car in back of our Secret Service car was the then Vice President Johnson. The Secret Service agent in that car had a portable radio that he could read all three of us ahead. His car following was a small Secret Service followup car, and they, too, had a portable set, which could read all four.

So we had a net of five on our own frequency. In the police cars they had their own city police frequency radios.

Mr. SPECTER. How many frequencies were used by your own network?

Mr. KELLERMAN. One.

Representative FORD. Do you have an alternative frequency, emergency frequency?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; we do. We have two of them.

Mr. SPECTER. What automobile came behind the lead automobile?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The President's car.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe the occupants of that car, indicating their positions, if you can, please.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. The President--President Kennedy sat on the right rear seat. Next to him on the left seat was Mrs. Kennedy. On the right jump seat in front of President Kennedy was Governor Connally. On the left jump seat in front of Mrs. Kennedy was Mrs. Connally. I sat on the right passenger seat of the driver's seat, and Special Agent William Greer drove the vehicle.

Mr. SPECTER. How far were you behind the lead car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No more than two or three car lengths.

Senator COOPER. What is that? I didn't hear it.

Mr. KELLERMAN. No more than two or three car lengths, Senator Cooper.

Mr. SPECTER. What car immediately followed the President's car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Our own Secret Service followup car.

Mr. SPECTER. What kind of a car was that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is a 1956 Cadillac, four-door touring car with the top down.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that also a special automobile flown in?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is a special automobile, flown in with the President's car; yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. And who were the occupants of that car, indicating their positions in the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. All during this ride in from Love Field Special Agent Sam Kinney was the driver of this automobile. The assistant to the Special Agent in Charge Emory Roberts was sitting in the front seat, the passenger side. This car has running boards. Standing on the front of the left running board was Special Agent Clinton Hill. In back of him on the rear of that same running board on that side was Special Agent William McIntyre. On the right running board standing forward was Special Agent John Ready, and standing in back of him on the rear of the right running board was Special Agent Paul Landis.

Mr. SPECTER. Did that automobile have jump seats?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This automobile has jump seats.

Mr. SPECTER. And what people occupied the jump seats?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It was occupied by Mr. Kenneth O'Donnell, who was the appointment secretary of President Kennedy, and Mr. Dave Powers.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know which sat on which side?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. O'Donnell sat on the left; Mr. Powers sat on the right.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was in the back seat of that automobile?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The back seat of that automobile on the right side was Special Agent George Hickey, and on the left side Special Agent Glen Bennett.

Mr. SPECTER. How were the special agents in the followup car armed, if at all?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Each agent carries his own gun. This is a 4-inch revolver on their person.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that apply to you and Mr. Greer as well?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Absolutely.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other arms in the President's followup car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; in this followup car we have what is now known as an AR-15. This is a rifle, and it is on all movements; this vehicle is out of the case; it won't be shown; it could be laying flat on the floor, but she is ready to go.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, how far behind the President's car did the Presidential followup car follow?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not knowing how far it was behind, I would say, from the practice of that driver that he has, five feet would be a maximum.